---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Still more on drying hops. ("Steven W. Smith")
  Chimay yeast / O2 bottles (Andy Walsh)
  From sediment to next batch, a cautionary note  (herron at wadsworth.org (Bruce Herron))
  Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:47:27 -0400 ("Ken Smith")
  Aruba ? (Keith Frank)
  Distilled Water pH / The Al & Dave Digest (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  decoction-mashed belgians? (mdost3+ at pitt.edu (Mike Dowd))
  Re: White film in bottles (nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au (Nigel Townsend))
  RE: Too much HBD? (ritchie at wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie))
  know your onions (nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au (Nigel Townsend))
  distilled water (Jim Hodge)
  Bottle Cleaning (toml at fcmc.COM (Tom Lochtefeld (Risk Mgt)))
  Re:Subject: OOPS! A quick add-on re: cleaning ("Dan Hanlon")
  Digests (Matt_K at stssystems.com)
  All wheat batch (Carl Hattenburg)
  Re: Distilled Water pH ("Bernard D Hummel")
  priming/ unidentified floating object  ("Dave Higdon")
  Distilled Water pH (Dan Gerth)
  Lager Yeast brewing temps. ("Bernard D Hummel")
  RE:  Too much HBD (Jeff Hewit)
  Copper Kettles/Homebrew Clubs ("Rich Byrnes")
  Calcium & Enzymes; pH of distilled water (dwhitman at rohmhaas.com (Dave Whitman))
  Mash Calculations/Unmalted Wheat/Wit ("Barry Wertheimer")
  Re: distilled water? (Bob Waterfall)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 17:25:17 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Still more on drying hops.

  FWIW, a suggestion on drying hops.  "Way back in olden days" I occasionally
grew a plant or two that were related to hops*.  When I wanted to dry some of
this substance in a hurry, I'd spread it on a paper towel and put it in the
microwave along with a coffee cup of water (since I'd heard operating the nuker
"empty" was a Bad Thing).
  My experience was that, um, plant material dried in this manner retained much
more of it's aroma/flavor (but not "mouthfeel" ;-) than identical material
dried on screens or in direct sunlight.  Anyway, I can testify that a microwave
does a darn-fine job of drying "plant stuff" in short order.  Hops, of course,
don't seem to grow here in The Great Stinking Desert I call home, so don't
expect further reports from moi...  HTH
Steve
  _,_/|   Steven W. Smith
  \o.O;   Systems Programmer, but not a Licensed Therapist
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College.  Glendale Az.
    U     syssws at gc.maricopa.edu or smith at peabody.gc.maricopa.edu
          End procrastination tomorrow, ask me how!

* I refer to mulberries, of course. :-)

P.S.  A belated welcome-back howdy to John (Cosmic Coyote) Wyllie!

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From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:37:30 +1100
Subject: Chimay yeast / O2 bottles

OK, so nobody here wants to own up to culturing yeast
out of a bottle of Chimay?
This is fairly urgent.
I have been given some yeast which a fellow club-member
cultured from Chimay dregs, as I want to make a Chimay
clone this w/e. I am currently building up a starter,
but am very concerned about it as it behaves like no
other "normal" yeast I've seen.
At first I thought it was not fermenting the starter, as
there was *no* head and no visible signs of activity.
Suspecting a leaky airlock, I transferred the contents
to a screwtop bottle. Sure enough, after relieving
the pressure after 30 secs or so, there was clearly
a gas build up, so it was working.
This morning, there were obviously bubbles in the
starter, but absolutely no foam head. It also looks
like pea soup, and the yeast build-up is a scungy
brown, not a nice clean whitish colour (like normal
yeast). It does smell OK, though.
Is this normal for cultured Chimay yeast? It sounds
pretty dodgy to me. Is my yeast ruined?
************
Industrial O2 bottles.
Brauwelt 1/96 has an article on CO2 recovery. In that
they mention how if you do not trust the purity of your
gas you can recover and purify your own (commercial,
obviously). The author's big concern was oxides of nitrogen
in gas. These can react with beer amino acids to form
"the dreaded" carcinogenic nitrosamines.
I have 2 gas bottles: 1 "beer gas" and 1 industrial O2.
I rang the supplier (BOC gases in Australia) to try
and determine exactly what was in each.
They told me "beer gas" is 99.8% CO2 and 0.2% water vapour.
Industrial O2 is 99.5% O2, 0.3% N2 and 0.2% water vapour.
They sell a variety of grades of each.
eg. CO2 comes in the forms:
beer gas
food grade
industrial grade

No matter what the grade is, they pump the same stuff into
each. What differs is the treatment of the cylinder. If you
get a bottle labelled beer gas, you know that that is what
it has been used for in another life. Apparently before
they had a separate "beer gas" label, soft drink manufacturers
would occassionally come back complaining the CO2 smelled
of beer (because it had been used for dispensing beer
previously!)

If you get an industrial O2 bottle (or CO2), they cannot guarantee
what you are getting out of the cylinder. It may have been
backflushed with NO2 for all they know. Basically, the more
you pay, the safer you are in knowing the bottle has been
used in a "safe" manner, and the less likely you are to get
bad contaminants. They offered to test the gas from a particular
bottle for me (for a price), but said it was not economic
to do that for each bottle they fill.

Personally, I'm happy with industrial grade - much easier
to get hold of, and I think the risk is low. I imagine the
situation would be kind of similar elsewhere, but if you're
worried, ring the supplier directly.


- --
Andrew Walsh			CHAD Research Laboratories
Phone (61 2) 212 6333		5/57 Foveaux Street
Fax   (61 2) 212 1336		Surry Hills. NSW. 2010
email awalsh at crl.com.au		Australia.



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From: herron at wadsworth.org (Bruce Herron)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:26:10 -0400
Subject: From sediment to next batch, a cautionary note 

Taken from...
>Homebrew Digest             Tuesday, 9 July 1996        Number 2098
>
>From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
>Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 08:43:00 CDT
>Subject: Re: starters, conversion at 158F

=>snip=>

>>And while we are (or I am) on the subject, how many of you use the sediment
>>from your last beer to create a starter for your next beer?   How many
>>generations would this work?
>
>Indefinitely, if it's handled properly.
>
>>Would the yeast autolyze (er...eat itself) while
>>it was waiting in the bottle?
>
>If there's no sugar and lots of yeast cells, it's possible, especially if
>the temperature is warm, but autolysis isn't a common problem unless the
>yeast is stored without food for a relatively long time (weeks).

=>snip

        I have read this reply (for the most part) from several sources, and
while I totally agree with the facts about genetic drift not truly being an
issue when considered in this way I do find some trouble with going from
sediment to the next batch. This concern was brought on by something I read
in a journal called "Genomics a couple of months back, that showed gene
expression between young and old brewers yeast to be different, I will try
to explain why.

        O.K. so the DNA thats passed from yeast to yeast is for the most
part stable stuff, an average rate of mutation per gene running around 1 in
a million (please don't hold me to that number it is a ballpark guess at
best) and the likelyhood of that mutation being something that will cause
that one guy to overpopulate the whole carboy simply to cause an off flavor
is far less likely than that.

        However, the stuff we are made of is not only DNA, its protein which
is the product of expressed genes, and here in lies the concern I have when
your dealing with a population that procreates by budding. First its
important to relize that old organisms will express different types of genes
and in different amounts than young ones. A good example of this is when
your hair starts to turn grey, this is due not to a DNA mutation but to an
alteration in the amount of the melanin gene being expressed in your hair
follcles. When a yeast buds you have two indivduals, one new little yeast
expressing one set of genes, and the big mother yeast expressing those
characteristic to an older individual. Whether or not these sets of genes
would be detrimental to brewing is hard to say, but it would be hard to
dispute that this difference has an effect, good or bad.

        Now when you take sediment from your carboy the ratio of mother to
daughter yeast is vastly different from that which came from the smack pack,
this will change the gene expression profile of the population and will
likely change the character of how they ferment. While it is true that these
will likely turnover and be replaced by young yeast there will always be a
greater number of old folk around. A better way to go is to limit the carry
over of old yeast into the next batch by pulling a small amount of sediment
and doing a fresh starter which should be once again enriched for younger 
yeast.

        It should be mentioned however that there is no way possible to
control all of the variables to keep any biological system exactly the same,
the best we hope for in the lab is a approximation of the first experiment,
doing so in your kitchen will be ever harder.
   __    __       Bruce Herron
  /  \  /  \      Developmental Genetics
 (   _""_   )     David Axelrod Institute
  -  o  o  -      120 New Scotland Ave.
    \    /        Albany, NY 12208
  ===\  /===      Phone (518) 474-3341
      O           FAX (518) 474-3181


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From: "Ken Smith" <ksmith2 at wingsbbs.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:47:27 -0400
Subject: Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:47:27 -0400

Michael A. Genito wrote:

>Since from what I've read it seems that roasted barley is often used to
give
>a deep garnet color, does anyone have a temp/time recipe where one can
>produce roasted barley from regular 2 row malt? I know I can buy roasted
>barley at the brew supply, but I would probably often need only a few
ounces
>per batch, and it can be a PITA if all the other ingredients are already
in
>my possession.


You need to check your recipe to see if it says roasted barley or roasted
MALT. If it is calling for roasted barley, that is unmalted barley that
has been roasted to a dark color. If it is calling for roasted malt or
roasted barley malt then you can roast that in your oven at about 350 till
the desired amount of roast is achieved.

Ken Smith

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From: Keith Frank <kfrank at brazosport.cc.tx.us>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 22:16:21 -0500
Subject: Aruba ?

************ From Mark DeWeese ****************

Collective,

I am braving the hurricane season by traveling to the Netherland Antilles
and the Windward Islands later this month.

Michael Jackson gives Banks Lager from Barbados and Carib Lager from
Trinidad two stars, but is there anything better to sample while I'm there.

How are the beers in Aruba ? Since this is part of the Netherlands, I would
expect to find the same beers there I'd find in Holland. Is this a
reasonable assumption ? How about Martinique ? This is a French possession.
Will I find any French beers there ? Any good local beers ?

TIA
Mark DeWeese
Homebrewer, Beer Lover & Scuba Diver
c/o kfrank at brazosport.cc.tx.us




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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:34:45 -0400
Subject: Distilled Water pH / The Al & Dave Digest

Jeff Sturman makes an interesting observation:

<<
Last weekend I had some minor pH problems with my mash and out of curiosity
I checked the pH of the distilled water I use.  My tap water sucks, so I
mix it about 50/50 with distilled water when I brew.  Two different brands
of pH papers and a digital pH meter all calculated the pH of the distilled
water at about 5.5!  Isn't distilled water supposed to be pH 7.0?  The
manufacturer of the water told me that distilled water, pH 7.0, is
corrosive because it acts like a sponge, trying to suck up anything it
contacts.  That's why their distilled water has a lower pH.  Are they
pulling my racking cane?
>>

Distilled water is a ready receptor for atmospheric CO2 to dissolve, forming
carbonic acid.  Since there's nothing else in the water to neutralize it, it
lowers the pH.  If you were to aerate the water to drive off the CO2 you'd
probably see the pH rise to near 7.0.

Jeff, your water guy was right in a twisted sorta way.  Consider your racking
cane unpulled.

One other point -- your mash generally needs some external calcium to acidify
to the "optimum" pH range of ~5.0 to 5.4 (via reactions with phosphates in
the grain and such).  Using distilled water often results in higher mash pH,
especially if no (acidic) dark grains are present.  Based on wimpy empirical
data from here at the Bluff Canyon Brewery, I have drawn an arbitrary line at
25-30 ppm Ca for adequate acidification of pale grists; YMMV.

*********

>From AlK:

<<
Then this thought struck me... other readers are probably just as irritated
by my long posts as I was having to sift through yours.  It's as if this is
the Al and Dave Digest and not the Homebrewer's Digest.
>>

Amen.  But while I agree that we all would have been better-served if the
information had been better-distilled, in *my* looking back over recent
issues (searching for other info) I couldn't help re-reading some of these
exchanges and --gasp!! -- LEARNING something!  In a really convoluted way I
think some good information came out of all this.  I don't pretend to
understand the chemistry going on here but a second look at some of the
tirades actually flicked on some light bulbs in my wee brain.  Whether it's
the "Homebrew Digest" or the "Al and Dave Show" doesn't matter to me as long
as the discussions are *lucid, informative, and don't involve personal
slights*.  Misinformation (a good chunk of it mine!) has usually been very
diplomatically and amicably corrected in this forum; let's keep our eye on
*that* ball.

Now go mash your malt, gentlemen, at whichever temperature chews yer starch.

**********

Ken Schwartz
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://users.aol.com/kennyeddy


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From: mdost3+ at pitt.edu (Mike Dowd)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:02:58 -0500
Subject: decoction-mashed belgians?

Over the past year or so, I've noticed several posts, in the HBD and in
rec.crafts.brewing, in which people write about using decoction mashing to
make Belgian ales (usually triples or doubles).  While I'm a big advocate
of decoction mashing for German beers, I didn't think it was appropriate
for Belgian ales.  Pierre Rajotte, in _Belgian Ales_ specifically says that
while the Belgian brewmasters do use decoction mashing for making their own
versions of German beers, they use a straight infusion mash for their own
ales.  In Michael Jackson's discussion of Belgian ales in _The New World
Guide to Beer_, only Rodenbach is mentioned as using decoction mashing (for
its Red and Grand Cru).  Also, from my tasting of various Belgian beers
(admittedly, not as varied as I would like it to be, but I'm workin' on it
:) I can't say I've had any that taste like decoction mashed beers (other
than Rodenbach).

So I was wondering what other people thought about the proper method for
brewing Belgian beer.  Is decoction mashing ever appropriate?

Mike

Michael Dowd                          Whoever makes a poor beer is transferred
Yeastie Boy Brewing                 to the dung-hill.
Pittsburgh, PA
mdost3+ at pitt.edu                             -Edict, City of Danzig, 11th
Century



- ------------------------------

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From: nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au (Nigel Townsend)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:34:11 +1000
Subject: Re: White film in bottles

Sandra & Craig reccommended in HBD 2099 that sodium metabisulphite be used
to clean bottles and equipment.

I used to use this product and never had an infected brew.  I now use
bleach following a discussion with a surgeon.  Over a drink he asked if I
used this product and advised me to stop.  There is apparantly an accepted
link (in some medical circles any way) between sodium metabisulphite and
nasal polyps, as well as other problems.

I brought this up about a year ago on HBD and had several comments from
people who stated that they had been affected.

One lady (Liz) stated that following constant contact to the product
running her home brew retail shop in the UK, she had become affected by
asthma.  The doctor had blamed the sodium metabisulphite.  She no longer
stocks it.

Another gentleman (John) advised that he had managed to obtain a job lot of
brewing equipment due to a person giving up brewing as sodium
metabisulphite had affected his health.

It appears that some people can build up a sensitivity over a period of
time, possibly as a result of inhaling the fumes.

I would not recommend its use, except in small amounts to kill yeast in
wine and some beers.

Nigel Townsend
Hobart, Tasmania
..



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From: ritchie at wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 22:49:47 -0700
Subject: RE: Too much HBD?

I hate to admit it but I agree with Jeff Renner.  The frequency of the HBD
is simply overwhelming.  I would like to second his motion to limit the
digest to 45k and slow it to one digest per day.

Don't get me wrong -- I still enjoy reading many of the interesting threads
and discussions.  However, with multiple digests arriving in my "inbox" per
day, I simply can't keep up.  As it is I find myself skimming over many
(6~10) digests in one shot because I can't devote the time required to stay
current.

I'm the first to admit that I've learned a lot from the HBD and I hope my
posts and questions over the last year have helped others.  However, I am
afraid that soon I will be forced to sign off because the digest has become
too much to handle.

Opinions?  ...CDR
________________________________________________________________________
Clark D. Ritchie, ritchie at wnstar.com      http://www.wnstar.com/ritchie/


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From: nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au (Nigel Townsend)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:53:10 +1000
Subject: know your onions

There was some discussion several weeks ago regarding King Tuts beer, made
in Newcastle (UK) from dregs found in a Pharoes tomb and sold in Harrods
(London) for big bucks.  Whats the world coming to?

Well, the news finally arrived in Tasmania and caused a stir on the radio
this morning.  As a result, an old soldier rang in and said that he hoped
it tasted better than the beer he drank in Egypt in the 1940's.  He
believed that they used onions instead of hops as a bittering agent.  Any
one else heard of this, or is it just an old soldiers tale?

Just thought this might be a change from recent chest beating and soul
searching in public!  I second the proposal to argue in private and discuss
in public.

Nigel Townsend
Hobart, Tasmania



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From: Jim Hodge <jdhodge at worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:35:13 GMT
Subject: distilled water

Jeff Sturman had wondered at the low pH of his distilled water.  Distilled
water will typically have a lower pH than 7.0 as exposure to air will result
in the dissolution of CO2.  The dissolved CO2 will form carbonic acid, which
should bring the pH of the water down to 6.3 and this is the 'normal' pH for
any water that has been exposed to air for a long time.

The 5.5 measured is suggests significantly more acidity than simple CO2
dissolution (pH is a logarithmic scale) and I couldn't explain that
off-hand.  However, the story you got from the manufacturer sounds like just
that.  Water with a pH of 5.5 would be significantly more corrosive than
that with a pH of 7.0, i.e., water with a pH of 5.5 coming into your house
would eventually cause problems with your copper water pipes.  I have lived
in aa area where the well water being used had a pH of about 5.5 and the
subsequent corrosion required that copper water pipes be replaced after
about 10 years.


Jim Hodge
jdhodge at worldnet.att.net
===================================================

"And what is good, Phaedrus,
And what is not good--
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"


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From: toml at fcmc.COM (Tom Lochtefeld (Risk Mgt))
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 08:23:58 EDT
Subject: Bottle Cleaning

Sandra and Craig write:

<<Now, your beer & wine bottles don't need to be cleaned each and every
time, as long as you rinse them thoroughly right after pouring a
glass.  Store them upside down in a carton and the next time you fill
'em all you need do is give 'em a quick water rinse and fill.  All
done!  Works perfectly!  Guaranteed!>>

I agree 100%.  I haven't used anything besides water to clean my
bottles in years.  I brush and rinse each bottle after serving and
store them in a box.  Prior to bottling again, I take one extra step
and put my bottles upside-down in the dishwasher using the super hot
cycle without soap.  I have never had an infected beer.

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From: "Dan Hanlon" <dhanlon at mail.hq.faa.gov>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 09:07:11 EST
Subject: Re:Subject: OOPS! A quick add-on re: cleaning

     >From: WineNBrew at aol.com
     >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:33:21 -0400
     >Subject: OOPS! A quick add-on re: cleaning

     >OOPS!
     >Our previous post re: cleaning with baking soda & sodium
     >metabisulfite was exactly right for all your plastic equipment, but
     >we left off the easiest way to clean really dirty beer bottles, glass
     >carboys and wine bottles. Just put your bottles in a large waste
     >basket or garbage can with lots of ammonia and water. Let 'em soak
     >for a few hours. Look closely at them. Use a good bottle brush to
     >scrub off heavy dirt particles. Then rinse well. Now use your baking
     >soda and sodium metabisulfite solution as described in our last post.

     >Voila! Finished.

     >Now, your beer & wine bottles don't need to be cleaned each and every
     >time, as long as you rinse them thoroughly right after pouring a
     >glass. Store them upside down in a carton and the next time you fill
     >'em all you need do is give 'em a quick water rinse and fill. All
     >done!   Works perfectly! Guaranteed!
     >Sandra & Craig
     >Wine & Brew By You, Inc.
     >Miami, Florida

     I do something similar, use the trash can; but I use ordinary
     household bleach after a suggestion in one of Charlie Papazian's
     books. All stains come out easily after a few days, especially brewing
     residue, great for glass carboy's - no scrubbing!. Put all your
     brewing stuff in the water to clean (plastic tubing does get cloudy
     however). One point though, don't use bleach on stainless steel! For
     dilution, look at Papazian's book. I use about 3 teaspoons per gallon
     for light soaking, more for heavy cleaning. When you're done soaking,
     just rinse and let sit until you need the stuff again. By the way, if
     its available, put the trash can in a spare shower or tub (if you have
     one) and when finished soaking, just siphon out the water, no heavy
     lifting required. I've read on the net where some people recommend
     that you just keep a very dilute chlorine solution in you plastic brew
     stuff until you're ready to use it.


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From: Matt_K at stssystems.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:21:00 est
Subject: Digests

A couple of digests ago Jeff Renner made a comment about the number of
digests that have been shipping lately.

I'd like to chime in and say that 45K 1/day is about right, even if it
means that there is a few days delay for publishing posts.

With the current volume I find myself skimming a lot of stuff,
probably missing some useful info.

BTW the above is just an observation, not a complaint.  Anyone else
feel the same way?

Matt
in Montreal



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From: Carl Hattenburg <CHattenburg at Perstorp-us.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:37:41 -0400
Subject: All wheat batch

Hello, consortium! A friend sent me the following comments.
I thought an "All Wheat Beer" was a myth!?!? Comments?

- --------------------------------------------------
Well, I rolled the pack of liquid yeast last night,
so I guess I am committed to brew this weekend.
I skimmed the new book on wheats and found some
interesting pointers.  The real complications
would come in doing an all grain brew from scratch.
The malting and mashing procedures are unique and
sound complicated.  Compared to barley, wheat mash
has more large proteins and a lower level of the amino
acids that the yeast need. I am glad I got wheat
extract from a German source that hopefully did it right.
It will be 100% wheat, which is not what is called for,
but 'it's what I got, buddy.' Anyway, for an extract batch,
you are supposed to hold back a quart and a half of wort to
be added at bottling time as a source of nutrient (no priming sugar).
Also pitch in a second batch of yeast that is held over
from the original starter culture - I am going to grow
up about a pint of starter.  If the starter doesn't
grow well in 'all wheat' I will head to Brewmasters
for some barley.  The recipe calls for bottling after
only about 4 days of primary fermentation - after the
heavy foaming has subsided.  I can hear those bottles blowing now!
- --------------------------------------------------

Any hints I can pass on to the brave soul would be appreciated!

- - Carlos, HattenBrews for youze!


- - Carl H. (w)301.680.7276, (x)301.236.0134, (h) 301.942.3756, (e)
CHattenburg at Perstorp-us.com

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From: "Bernard D Hummel" <hummelbe at pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:14:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Distilled Water pH

Jeff - About your distilled water pH...It is perfectly normal for the pH of
pure water, even ultra pure water to have a pH 5.0-6.0.  This is not due to the
water "sucking up anything it contacts" but instead is due to the dissolved
gasses in the water, especially carbon dioxide.  When CO2 is disolved in water
it forms a weak acid, thus decreasing the pH of the water.  Don't worry, it
is natural and you can not do anything about it.  Saying that your water is
"corrosive" is, in my opinion, is too severe.  Since the water is not buffered,
it will easily change pH when the ingredients of your beer are added, i.e. the
pH of your distilled water will have very little effect on the pH of your wort.
Hope this helps.     -Ben.

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From: "Dave Higdon" <DAVEH at qesrv1.bwi.wec.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:13:07 EST
Subject: priming/ unidentified floating object 

I just bottled my wheat beer about 3 weeks ago and their is little
very little carbonation.  What can I do to increase it. I thought about
opening up each bottle and adding more suger but I don't know how
much to dissolve in water and how much to add to each bottle.
Can anyone help me out here?

Also my roomate just opened his one  week old maulberry wheat and it had
  white slimmy chunks floating  around in it.  Does anyone know what
this is?



Cheers to all,

Dave Higdon

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From: Dan Gerth <dgerth at lanl.gov>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:23:21 -0600
Subject: Distilled Water pH

Jeff Sturman asks:

>>
Last weekend I had some minor pH problems with my mash and out of curiosity
I checked the pH of the distilled water I use.  My tap water sucks, so I
mix it about 50/50 with distilled water when I brew.  Two different brands
of pH papers and a digital pH meter all calculated the pH of the distilled
water at about 5.5!  Isn't distilled water supposed to be pH 7.0?  The
manufacturer of the water told me that distilled water, pH 7.0, is
corrosive because it acts like a sponge, trying to suck up anything it
contacts.  That's why their distilled water has a lower pH.  Are they
pulling my racking cane?
<<

No, not quite.  The pH of distilled (and deionized) water is usually about
5.5 because it sucks up CO2 from
the atmosphere.  A small amout of the CO2 dissolves in the water to form
carbonic acid, which lowers the pH.
Distilled or deionized water is very aggressive, and can (and will!) corrode
pipe.  I know of instances where it has completely
eaten through copper pipe! (Don't worry - industrial sized systems, high
flow, volume, temp.  You won't see it at home)

dan

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Dan Gerth, Ph.D.
MS G740, CST-9
Trace Inorganic Analysis		"Semper Ubi Sub Ubi!" - anon
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Los Alamos, NM 87545
phone: (505)-665-0403
FAX:   (505)-665-4737
email: dgerth at lanl.gov
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


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From: "Bernard D Hummel" <hummelbe at pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:28:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Lager Yeast brewing temps.

Please help.  I need a little practical advise on brewing with lager yeasts.  I
am new to HBD and relatively new to brewing (1.5yrs).  I found a recipe that I
really want to try; it is a light-medium bodied lager (german style, partial
mash).  The recipe calls for a lager yeast and says that a good quality lager
yeast will enhance the flavor of the beer.  I know that you should ferment
lager yeast at about 50F but I don't have the facilities to do low temp.
ferments.  I only have the basement floor at about 65F.  Can I still brew this
beer?  My friend says it will be OK and the brew shop guy says no.  I'm
confused.  I wanted to use liquid yeast or Wyeast (maybe bavarian) since I
heard that dried lager yeast were not as good.  I don't require the 'perfect'
beer, just one that is good and very drinkable.  What do you think, can I use
lager yeast successfully at ale brewing temps?      -Ben.

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From: Jeff Hewit <jhewit at erols.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:38:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE:  Too much HBD

I agree with Jeff Renner that HBD has gotten a bit lengthy.  I don't think
HBD should be edited in any way, but I do think some of us tend to go on and
on and on.....  I suggest that all of us spend a little more time editing
our posts to keep them as short and sweet as possible.  Also, to save space,
lets try to keep those signature files down to necessary information.  Those
profound quotes and cute pictures get old pretty fast.

Brew on!
- ------------------------
Jeff Hewit
Midlothian, Virginia
- ------------------------


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From: "Rich Byrnes" <rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:54:01 EDT
Subject: Copper Kettles/Homebrew Clubs

Greetings All!

Apologies for the doublespacing, Shawn can't figure out why
our connection does this, I guarantee you it's not my typing
skills!

I was just given a gift of a very old copper kettle by my dad,
it belonged to a candy maker who'se home we purchased in Detroit
back in the late 60's.  It's a 5-6 gallon rounded bottom copper
kettle designed for fudge & chocolate cooking I believe.  Now
for the questions....

a) What's the best way to clean this without using harsh non-friendly
   chemicals?  (Vinager & salt?)

b) Has anyone brewed in a small copper kettle like this? It balances
   nicely on my ring burners so cooking in it should be easy.

c) What will the effect of boiling in copper be?  Any special
   precautions needed other than beware of scorching?

***************************************

On an unrelated note, we just topped the 100 mark in our homebrew
club, we had 7 new members join in June and we are now at 103,
as Scooby Doo would say, Yoiks!

Thanks!

Regards, Rich Byrnes Jr
Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen     \\\|///
phone #(313)323-2613, fax #390-4520_______o000_(.) (.)_000o
rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com                         (_)


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From: dwhitman at rohmhaas.com (Dave Whitman)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:57:06 -0400
Subject: Calcium & Enzymes; pH of distilled water

In HBD#2099, Steve Alexander writes about the effect of Ca on enzymes:

>Altho calcium improves the stability of beta-amylase to a point, the
>bigger effect is on stabilizing and increasing the activity level
>of Alpha-amylase.  At 70C barley AA is quite unstable in low Ca+
>environment.  Further the activity of AA irreversibly lost when used
>in suboptimal Ca concentrations even at 60C.  AA is actually classed
>as a metallo-enzyme because of the calcium requirement.

This is fascinating, and perhaps explains a problem I'm having with high
FG's in several batches in a row.

I normally mash my IPA at 156F (69C) for 90 minutes, and get attenuations
in the 70-75% range using Wyeast 1056 (OG 56, FG 14).  The last 4 batches,
I get more like 63-65% attenuation (OG 56, FG 20).

I use r/o water because my well has high nitrate level, and my original
process was fine tuned using this essentially ion-free water.  Recently (4
batches ago...) I started added gypsum to the R/O water to get a more
typical brewing water profile.  I hadn't connected this with the high FG's
because there were many other changes during that time, but with this
information from Steve, it begins to make some sense.

Perhaps when using pure r/o water, I was loosing alpha amylase abnormally
quickly, so that my conversion was being dominated by beta amylase?  Now
with 100 ppm Ca, I'm seeing normal alpha amylase activity, and my worts are
more dextrinous?  Does this make sense to anyone else?

I dropped the mash temperature on my latest batch to 150F for 2 hours;
we'll see if that gives me a more fermentable wort.

In the same issue, Jeff Sturman asks about pH of distilled water:

Although ideally the pH of pure water is 7, you need to take into account
the buffer capacity of the water.  Very pure water has low buffer capacity,
and trace contaminants can drive the pH well away from this value.
Measuring a true pH of very pure water is tough to do; even the container
it's held in can effect the observed pH.  A very typical observation is for
the pH to be slightly acidic (as in Jeff's case).  This is easily caused by
dissolution of a little CO2 from the air - dissolved CO2 is carbonic acid.

The good news is that the pH of distilled water doesn't really matter - its
the pH of your MASH that's important.  Because the buffer capacity of
distilled water is so low, the various ions from the grain and other
additives in your mash will dominate and set the pH.



- ---
Dave Whitman
Rohm and Haas Company
dwhitman at rohmhaas.com



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From: "Barry Wertheimer" <wertheim at libra.law.utk.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:02:16 EST
Subject: Mash Calculations/Unmalted Wheat/Wit

John Palmer recently posted a helpful item on calculating mash
efficiency, including a table containing malt yields for many of the
frequently used malts.  Does anyone have any idea what the max ppg
is for raw unmalted wheat?

My recent attempt at a wit came up short of my expected OG, and I am
trying to diagnose just how inefficient this mash was (and, of
course, why).   If anyone wants to diagnose along with me, I used 4
lbs. Belgian pils, 4 lbs. unmalted wheat, and 1/2 lb. flaked oats;
mashed 25 minutes at 122, 25 minutes at 126, 60 minutes at 150; mash
out at 170.  I wound up with 5 1/4 gallons  of wort (post-boiling)
with gravity in the 1.035 range.  Comments?

Barry

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From: Bob Waterfall <waterr at albany.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:15:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: distilled water?

Jeff Sturman writes:

>Last weekend I had some minor pH problems with my mash and out of curiosity
>I checked the pH of the distilled water I use.  My tap water sucks, so I
>mix it about 50/50 with distilled water when I brew.  Two different brands
>of pH papers and a digital pH meter all calculated the pH of the distilled
>water at about 5.5!  Isn't distilled water supposed to be pH 7.0?

5.5 sounds suspiciously like the theoretical pH of rainwater (pure water
with dissolved CO2 at the level reached in contact with air).  *Recently*
distilled water has pH 7, but after prolonged contact (or with large surface
area) with air will dissolve gases bringing the pH down to it's eventual
endpoint.  I have no idea how long this would take.

>The manufacturer of the water told me that distilled water, pH 7.0, is
>corrosive because it acts like a sponge, trying to suck up anything it
>contacts.  That's why their distilled water has a lower pH.  Are they
>pulling my racking cane?

The manufacturer is basically correct that distilled water is an excellent
solvent, although "corrosive" might be a bit of an exaggeration.



Bob Waterfall <waterr at albany.net>,
Troy, NY, USA


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