---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Indoor propane ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  What's the use of HDB? ((Alan McKay))
  Hole in the Gott          ((Chuck Wettergreen ))
  Fruit Beers, Cider and Mead, and Entire ("David R. Burley")
  O2 Tanks / HBD Gets a Life (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  Made in the Shade IV (Homebrew Competition) ((Jeff Handley & Gene Almquist))
  Re: microbreweries in Atlanta ("Michel J. Brown")
  Re: Questions to improve my beer (what else?) (AJN)
  Small Batches (mikehu at lmc.com)
  Protein size ((John W. Carpenter))
  Travelling  ("Ed J. Basgall")
  Ground Ivy beer....continued (Vincent A Voelz (Vincent Voelz))
  excessive crystal (korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com)
  Conical Fermenters (Kyle R Roberson)
  HBD jr. (Maestro)
  Rodenbach and acids II (Jim Liddil)
  Oxygen Debate (cgoll at PICA.ARMY.MIL)
  infected brew?/recipe/Weisbrod and Hess (Larry N. Lowe)
  Spent grains in bread (Kevin Kane)
  Re: Large fermenters - ceramic crocks (David Cummings)
  Travelling - New Knoxville Brewing Co. ((Smith Family))
  Re: Catalogues ((Smith Family))
  Potatoes (Delano Dugarm)
  Errant messages (m.bryson2 at genie.com)
  O2 Grades/Seibolt Inst. (Jim Nasiatka-Wylde)
  Oxygen Grades/Pitching Temps/Hazelnut Extract/Decoction/Wheeler (Rob Moline)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at eroerm1.ecy.wa.gov>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 09:10:00 PDT
Subject: Indoor propane

 
 motten at fcmc.com ([Michael Otten]) asks: 
 
>I am currently in the planning stage of creating a Brauhaus in my basement. 
... my concern right now is safety.  I have heard all the warnings about not 
using propane cookers indoors, but are there any which are safe for indoor 
use (other sources of heat are currently unavailable) ?  If not, does anyone 
know of exhaust fans or the like which are effective in reducing Carbon 
Monoxide and other fumes which would be hazardous to me or my 
family?  On the topic of Carbon Monoxide, are there any recommendations 
for CO detectors?   Are there any other suggestions from others who 
have made an indoor system? < 
 
Mike: Serious.  The concern about Propane is not CO.  It is the propane 
itself.  Propane is heavier than air.  It will sink and collect in drains, 
low spots in your basement, underneath your furnace or hot water heater. 
 From leaks in your system or incomplete combustion, when enough can collect 
to exceed the lower explosive limit.... well, boom. 
 
Me, I don't think there is a fan or detector made which could let me sleep 
at night. 
Boats don't use propane unless the tanks and fittings are vented to the 
exterior without going to the living quarters.  They use CNG or alcohol, 
both fairly low BTU fuels, I think.  As I am just a bit above ignorant on 
this, my advice is before you do this, contact a serious HVAC guy. 
 
Guy Gregory 
GuyG4 at aol.com 

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From: alan.mckay at acadiau.ca (Alan McKay)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:26:45 -0300 (ADT)
Subject: What's the use of HDB?

 
 
I don't mean to be the devil's advocate, but is there any real reason 
why HBD even exists anymore?  Personally, I'd much rather read all this 
stuff in a newsgroup where it is far, far easier to follow threads 
and so on.  Getting a big long text file like this is an real pain in 
the butt.  What use does this mailing list serve that cannot be 
served by rec.crafts.brewing? 
 
Again, I don't mean to be a trub disturber, I'm just curious. 
 
My guess is that this mailing list began before the days of newsgroups, 
and still hasn't died out yet.  Please correct me if I'm wrong. 
 
Surely there has to be a *much* better way to do this nowadays. 
 
- -Alan 
 
- -- 
  5 out of 6 macho men prefer Russian roulette 
http://www.acadiau.ca/cc/alan/ 

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From: chuckmw at mcs.com (Chuck Wettergreen )
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 12:04 CDT
Subject: Hole in the Gott         

To: homebrew at aob.org 
 
In HBD 2112  "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu> wrote: 
 
HH> I'm suprised Phil (TM) or no one has come up with a commercial 
HH> solution the the hole in the cooler.  There is certainly a market 
HH> for something... 
 
Here's my solution to the hole in the Gott: 
 
How to make a bulkhead penetration in a Gott cooler 
 
Materials needed: 
(1) 3/8"OD brass close nipple 
(2) rubber garden hose washers 
(2) 3/8"ID stainless steel washers 
(2) 3/8"ID X 1/2"OD brass reducers 
 
Proceedure: 
 
1.  Remove the installed spigot from the Gott cooler 
    by loosening the plastic nut inside. Also remove 
    the rubber washer. 
 
2.  Assemble the parts above in the following order on 
    the close nipple: 
 
        3/8"ID X 1/2"OD brass reducer 
        3/8"ID stainless steel washer 
        rubber garden hose washer 
        wall of Gott cooler 
        rubber garden hose washer 
        3/8"ID stainless steel washer 
        3/8"ID X 1/2"OD brass reducer 
 
3.  Tighten the reducers until you get a snug fit. This will make 
    the fitting water-tight. 
 
    With this assembled you can attach a standard brass or 
    stainless 1/2" ball valve to the outside, and a 1/2" copper 
    threaded-to-braze fitting on the inside, to which you can 
    attach your copper manifold.  This method does not invalidate 
    the (excellent) standard 6-year Gott warranty (no cutting). 
 
Cheers, 
Chuck 
chuckmw at mcs.com 
Geneva, IL 
 
 * RM 1.3 00946 * 
 

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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 23 Jul 96 13:11:54 EDT
Subject: Fruit Beers, Cider and Mead, and Entire

Brewsters: 
 
Todd Kirby asks about those fruit flavorings seen at homebrew shops for use in 
beer brewing. 
 
I ask Todd, why not use the real stuff?  There are more and better fruits 
available in your supermarket's fruit section and in the frozen fruit section 
than you will probably ever use.  If that doesn't suit you, how about canned 
fruits? Just stay away from those fruits prepared with the baker in mind, since
most have added thickeners. Make sure no preservatives have been added. 
 
Most fruits have pectin, so I treat them with pectic enzyme before I use them. 
Raising the temperature to just under boiling in the presence of metabisulfite 
will destroy this enzyme and prevent any problems which may arise when the 
fruit
is used in the beer. (I don't know of any, but with something that can destroy 
a carbohydrate like pectin may do something to the soluble beer carbohydrates) 
 
I always sterilize fruits in some fashion either by gentle cooking or with 
metabisulfite ( 75 ppm), depending on the fruit. Metabisulfite, being the 
active
ingredient in "Fruit fresh" will prevent browning so I use it in most cases. 
Mild cooking or freezing the fresh fruit is a good way to maximize the flavor 
extracted in most cases, unless it destroys the flavor you are after.  Frozen 
fruit offers the advantage of better extraction since the cell walls have been 
ruptured by freezing. You should consider doing a little "wine" using beer 
yeast
with your fruit and filtering out the pulp after the essence of the fruit has 
been extracted and before pouring it into your beer.  This also offers you the 
opportunity to adjust the amount of fruit to taste, rather than guess.  This 
"wine" method also allows you to avoid the biggest problem with fruit beers 
- -getting the beer out of the fermenter without plugging up your racking cane 
with spent fruit pulp. For filtering the pulp out of the wine, since you don't 
have enough to press in a wine press, I have resorted, at various times, to a 
cloth bag, a kitchen strainer and in recalcitrant cases a coffee filter in a 
kitchen strainer for a second filter following a rough filter.  If you want to 
put the fruit in directly, than cover the lower end of your racking cane with a
Copper or Stainless Steel Chore Boy (R) soapless scrubber.  This will provide 
you the opportunity to reduce the problems with plugged racking canes and allow
you to use the fruit straight, which I don't recommend. 
 
I have to admit I have tasted some pretty horrible American Weiss Beers with 
various fruits added.  The biggest problem with them and with some extracts is 
the oxidation and subsequent browning reaction of the enzymes in the fruit. The
beers end up tasting like a very bad, thin sherry.  The second biggest problem 
is they are too light on the fruit.  If you are going to have a fruit flavored 
beer it should taste like something besides watered down soda pop. 
 
I think your idea to go to a dark beer for the background taste and lightened 
up
by a bright fruit is correct. A good Cherry Porter sounds excellent to me. How 
about a fake Belgian using bananas.  Or maybe something really peachy? Like a 
peach flavored brown ale. In the canned fruit area during the winter, some 
waggy
enthusiast might even suggest fruit coctail lager, but I wouldn't try it, 
someone might argue about who gets the cherry. 
 
Another neat thing about using fresh fruits as they come into season is that it
is a way to celebrate each new crop and remember it when you drink the beer 
later on. 
- ------------------------------------------------------------ 
Jorge Blasig wants to start his home brewing career via mead and cider 
production, because of the time and import problems with beer products. 
 
Jorge, unless there is distinct law forbidding the import of these goods, e.g. 
Saudi Arabia, usually they can be imported under food products. Also, most of  
our mail-order houses use UPS for export, so they are very familiar with 
specific laws of each country and they will know about your laws. If there is a
United Parcel Service or DHL  office in your country give them a call or have 
your supplier check it for you. 
 
Since honey, fruit juices and apple juice are natural products, the sugar 
content can vary. Rather than providing you with a recipe, I recommend that you
determine the sugar content by diluting the honey by a known amount and 
measuring the specific gravity using a hydrometer.  If one is not readily 
available, but a good balance and volume measuring equipment is, determine the 
density by weighing a known volume of this solution to determine the weight of 
sugar in the honey.  Honey in anything will take it longer to mellow than with 
sugar. 
 
Likewise the apple juice.  Unless you want to make an apple wine by adding 
sugar, cider will naturally ferment by itself and you don't really need to 
measure the SG.  However, I suggest a dose of 50 ppm metabisulfite followed a 
few hours later by a yeast of your choice, if you wish.  This amount of 
metabisulfite will delay the browning reaction and bacteria until the yeast can
take over. If you can, be at the cider mill when they press and treat the apple
juice immediately.  This may not have the tanginess of the acetic acid you are 
used to, so I suggest you also ferment a gallon or so of cider naturally and 
blend it to taste. Find out which apples are being pressed, I guarantee you the
variety of taste from various apples is amazing.  Some I like, some I hate. 
 
For other fruit, use the same basic procedure, measure the fruit juice SG, 
determine the amount of sugar or honey needed to bring it to the desired 
alcohol
content and rip on. 
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
When I read Wheeler's comment about the people of London inventing Porter, I 
understood it to mean the concept of blending stale and new beer.  I believe 
Harwood is properly credited elsewhere with introducing "Entire". I guess it 
was
called this because it contained everything a drinker could want in that it was
a  preblend of stale and new beer.  And responsible for that spoiled taste I 
sometimes get with Guiness from the tap. Entire was later called Porter either 
because it was popular in the Porterhouse or as some have said because it was 
ported out of London.  I favor the Porterhouse version, just because I like 
those steaks.  Skeptic that I am, I would credit the publicans with inventing 
Porter by blending off their spoiled beer. It just so happened that Mikey liked
it!  And a new industry was born. 
 
I had the same feeling as AlK about the comments on the origin of  Rodenbach, 
unless Wheeler is talking about the concept of blending old and new beer, which
Belgians do all the time aka Gueuze and many others. 
 
Maybe it isn't so much poor research as sloppy writing and a desire to give a 
different perspective. The latter of  which I think is fine unless it is 
misleading, as these comments can be.  Nevertheless, I do like articles like 
this once in a while to spur us on. 
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
Dave Burley 
 

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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:50:02 -0400
Subject: O2 Tanks / HBD Gets a Life

On O2 for aerating:  If one were to use the old Bernzomatic (sp?) cannisters 
availalble at the Home Square Depot Base, what's the best way to attach to 
the threaded mouth?  Is there some kind of generic valve fitting?  Or would 
you have to modify a torch head? 
 
***************** 
 
Check it out: 
 
> From: majordomo at aob.org 
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 16:10:24 GMT 
> Subject: Welcome to homebrew-digest 
> 
> - - -- 
> 
> Welcome to the homebrew-digest mailing list! 
> 
> If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, 
 
<<snip>> 
 
Wow, it appears that the HBD has subscribed to *itself*!  History in the 
making, folks. 
 
******* 
 
Ken Schwartz 
KennyEddy at aol.com 
http://users.aol.com/kennyeddy 

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From: homebrew at infomagic.com (Jeff Handley & Gene Almquist)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:01:04 -0700
Subject: Made in the Shade IV (Homebrew Competition)

Greetings to all: 
On August 17, 1996 there will be an AHA sanctioned homebrew contest held 
here in Flagstaff, AZ. If anyone would like to enter their prized homebrews 
please E-Mail us directly: outpost@ homebrewers.com and we will send via 
e-mail(in a MS Word format) all the necessary information. Entries must be 
sent between Aug 7th-Aug 14th. If you happen to be in Flagstaff or Arizona 
at that time you may want to come to the festival. It's a real blast. 
Thanks, Jeff Handley 
******************************************** 
* Jeff Handley***outpost@ homebrewers.com   * 
* Homebrewers Outpost-Flagstaff, Arizona   * 
*      http://www.homebrewers.com          * 
*                                          * 
* Homer: "Thanks for coming to my party.   * 
*  Wow, you brought a whole beer keg!"     * 
* Barney: "Yeah.  Where can I fill it up?" * 
******************************************** 
 
 
- ------------------------------ 

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From: "Michel J. Brown" <mjbrown at teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:09:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: microbreweries in Atlanta

At 02:30 PM 7/18/96 -0700, Neil Oakden wrote: 
>There's a web page called the "Real Beer Page" that has the ability to do 
>a nationwide brew pub search.  Choose the "Brew Tour" option from the 
>main page, enter some info, and you should get a fairly decent list of 
>breweries in Atlanta. 
> 
>URL is: 
>http://www.realbeer.com 
> 
>Hope this helps! 
> 
>Regards- 
>Neil Oakden 
>Shaw AFB, SC 
> 
Thanks, Neil, I'll do that. Guess I must've missed it when I was last on the 
web. Oh, well, at least they *have* real beer in Atlanta! God Bless, ILBCNU! 
 
 
         Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. 
  mjbrown at teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~mjbrown 
            Brewer, Patriot, Physician, Husband, and Father 
 

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From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:43:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Questions to improve my beer (what else?)

Thanks to all those who responded (both publicly and privately) to my 
questions of: 
 
<<<< 
A. When cooling the wort, what should be the final tempature before adding 
it to the carboy? 
 
B. Can I use dry yeast and hydrate it pryor to pitching, or do I have to 
buy "smack packs"? 
>>>> 
 
The general consensus is to cool the wort to fermentation temp, i.e. 
about 68 degrees for a ale and about 55 degrees for a lager. 
 
And most everyone thought liquid yeast is best, but one peasrson thought 
that dry yeast is getting a bad reputation from years ago, when the 
quality wasn't as good as it is now. 
 
Lastly, most responses added, that full wort boils will make a large 
differance in the taste and quality of my brew. 
 
Thanks again 

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From: mikehu at lmc.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 11:23:03 PDT
Subject: Small Batches

Dan Cole Writes: 
>Currently, I'm doing 2.5 - 3 gallon extract batches;  5 gallons is too much. 
>Right now, I'm using a standard 6.5 gallon plastic bucket for a primary and 
>then racking to a 3-gallon glass carboy for secondary fermentation. ...but 
>I know that the additional "head space" (or more specifically, the oxygen in 
>the headspace) in the bucket must be hurting my beer. 
 
Dan - Don't Worry! Your beer is fine. As the beer ferments, it is creating a 
protective layer of CO2 (which is heaver than air) directly on top of itself. 
Isn't it neat how higher life forms (such as beer) have a way of looking out 
for themselves? 
   Mike H. 
Creating Life in Portland, OR 

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From: jwc at med.unc.edu (John W. Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 14:25:40 EDT
Subject: Protein size

In HBD 2119, George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) writes: 
 
>    The June 27, 1996 issue of NATURE (p.738) reports that the "largest 
>    proteins in nature occur in wheat flower...these wheat gluten polymers 
>    [have] relative molecular masses ranging up into the tens of 
>    millions." 
 
Fascinatig! Does anyone know what the size of a protein with this molecular 
weight might be? 0.5, 1, 5, 10 microns? On the same subject, does anyone know 
what the molecular weight cutoff would be for the different pore sizes? In 
other words, what is the larges size protein that could pass through a 5 
micron filter? (Assuming the protein are globular.) 
 
> Sorry if this bored folks.  I bet Tracy liked it! 
 
I can't speak for Tracy, but I liked it. 
 
John Carpenter,  jwc at med.unc.edu 
Chapel Hill, NC 

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From: "Ed J. Basgall" <edb at chem.psu.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 11:22:45 EDT
Subject: Travelling 

There is a small microbrewery in Deerfield, MA.  Deerfield in Western MA 
Just north of Amherst.  They have a friendly laid back crew and do open 
fermentation.  The micro is called the Berkshire Brewing Company and they 
make some nice brews and give short tours. 
 
Ed Basgall 
Penn State Univ 
Dept of Chem 
 

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From: Vincent A Voelz <voel0009 at gold.tc.umn.edu> (Vincent Voelz)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 13:42:40 -0500
Subject: Ground Ivy beer....continued

Last night I just brewed the English Ale (some light extract w/ crystal and 
brown specialty grains for color) with 1 oz. creeping Charlie (a.k.a. 
Ground Ivy) -- which is essentially a lawn weed -- instead of hops as the 
bittering agent.  If this sounds interesting, check out my post "Ground Ivy 
instead of Hops" in r.c.b and in HBD #2114 (I think). 
 
We slurped a bit of the beer out of the hydrometer as we were waiting for 
it to cool; the taste was somewhat vegetable, but definitely bitter and 
minty.   Some of us reported a stingy/numbing sensation after tasting it, 
which I think is the bittering component (whatever THAT is).  Still, I 
would like to find out the toxicity of the plant, as well as determine 
whether or not allergic reactions to the plant are possible/probable.  Any 
info/references/etc. would be appreciated. 
 
This is brewing on the edge, dude! 
 
 
 

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From: korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 14:04:52 CDT
Subject: excessive crystal

Mike writes: 
>     My question is: why is 20% crystal malt excessive? 
> 
>     I usually use about one pound of a combination of crystal malts along 
>with 6 pounds of base malt (apx. 14% crystal). Is this too much? Does it make 
>a difference *which* types of crystal malt you use?  i.e., carapils vs. 120L 
>English crystal? 
 
In my experience 16% (40L) crystal is about the max that makes "normal- 
tasting" bitter.  If you exceed it with lighter crystal malts (Carapils, 
etc.) you are just going to have a little extra dextrin in your beer (not 
really a problem).  If you exceed it with darker crystal malts like the 
60L proposed in the recipe the beer will be very caramelly and can even have 
a bite from the crystal.  Typical bitter recipes use 0 to 15% crystal 
with most being 3 to 10%.  There are some milds that have very high 
levels of crystal malt (20 to 30% even!), but frankly my favourite bitter 
(Timothy Taylor Landlord) has NO crystal in it (100% pale ale malt). 
 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korzonas at lucent.com 
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas 

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From: Kyle R Roberson <roberson at beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Conical Fermenters

This is a short followup to a post I made a few weeks 
ago in response to a posting describing trouble getting 
clear beer out of the bottom of a "homemade" cylindrical- 
conical fermenter. I just spent a week observing and 
somewhat working in a brewery that used commercial versions 
of these tanks. Here is a thumbnail sketch of how they 
used them. 
 
After primary fermentation is over, the yeast at the very 
bottom of the tank is sewered. Then the hose is connected 
to the new tank for that days brew and a charge of yeast 
pumped over. At this point, the first tank is charged with 
finings if they are used and the second tank is filled with 
wort from the brew house. The first tank is now (or after 
the finings have settled) racked to the bright beer 
tank from a valve just under the manway and above 
the cone. This goes through a filter and is still pretty yeasty, 
but is nothing like what came out of the bottom. When the tank 
is emptied to this valve, then the bottom valve is purged to the 
sewer until it is more beer than yeast. This hose is now connected 
to the filter to try to recover as much beer as possible before 
the filter plugs. 
 
My impression is that these tanks would not work very well with 
only a bottom valve. 
 
Kyle 
 
 

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From: Maestro <krusemje at martin.luther.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:43:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: HBD jr.

Hey Fellow Brewsters, 
 
I returned to college this week and found 138 HBD isssues in my electronic 
mail box.  What a pleasantry!!  I haven't had time to read all of my back 
issues but I caught a little of the NOKO ONO junk, which is really 
disturbing for the complete novice like myself.  I would like to feel 
more comfortable in asking bonehead questions.  I enjoy reading the 
digest and love experiencing the glory of the knowledge that it protrudes 
twice daily, but to be honest 80% of it gets filed in "What-d-Heck!" 
 
I know that many of you are serious conscientious lovable brew-daddies 
that participate for the love of beer.  But the future of beer is with me 
and those like me with young minds and ambitious palattes.  Even older 
guys making their first pilgrimage to better can contribute something. 
But we need guidance and sponsorship.  Maybe a novice version of HBD is 
in order (HBDjr).  Those who care may participate in both forums.  Those 
of us new to brewing want to be appreciated and encouraged without 
bothering the "pros" and inflicting "page-down" syndrome on the HBD. 
Would anyone be able or willing to begin a juniour affiliate? 
 
Jesse Krusemark 
Luther College 
Decorah, IA 52101 
krusemje at martin.luther.edu 
R.R.1 Box 160 
Griggsville, IL 62340 

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From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:36:21 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Rodenbach and acids II

As a further followup on Rodenbach and acids the flavor threshold for 
acetic acid is about 300 ppm and for Lactic acid about 400 ppm.  Ref: Picket 
et. al. J Inst Brewing 1967 (82) pp 233. 
 
Jim 
http://radon.gas.uug.arizona.edu:80/~jliddil/ 

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From: cgoll at PICA.ARMY.MIL
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 17:56:26 -0400
Subject: Oxygen Debate

 
 
     Forgive me if I'm wrong, John Cheek, but doesn't Liquid Bread sell the 
     Oxygenator system??? 
 
     Maybe competition is the contaminant in industrial grade O2? 
 
     Chris Goll 
     cgoll at pica.army.mil 

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From: Larry N. Lowe <lnl at awips1.abrfc.noaa.gov>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 17:34:51 CDT
Subject: infected brew?/recipe/Weisbrod and Hess

first question: i brewed a bass clone...or at least i had hoped. i tried the 
second one last night...no better than the first. i am thinking it is infected 
and no, i am not prepared to dump it yet. my SO tried it and she described it 
as having an "ashy" flavor to it. it is bitter, but the hops i added were not 
that much...my recipe is at home. i believe it was 1 1/2 ounces of Northern 
Brewer (plus or minus a 1/2 an ounce) and an ounce of Willamette. is this 
"ashy" taste something associated with either of these...will giving it 
time help to mellow the flavor? i am not dumping yet, but i am wondering 
IMBR? 
 
second question: i recently tried a Boulevard Wheat and UMM..UMM GOOD. does 
anyone have a recipe for this or thier pale ale? BTW, it is from a microbrew in
KC (Jethro Gump?) 
 
and last: thinks to Brian Cornelius for answering my question on Weisbrod and 
Hess Brewery...BTW, it was located in *Porter* township in Pike county. 
 
- -- 
from: Larry N. Lowe, HAS Forecaster                       ? 
      lnl at apwk01g3.abrfc.noaa.gov                      \\\|/// 
      http://info.abrfc.noaa.gov                       (o) (o) 
      Off: (918)832-4109  FAX: (918)832-4101  _____oOOO__(_)__OOOo_____ 

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From: Kevin Kane <kkane at uidaho.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:45:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Spent grains in bread

I remember a thread in the HBD about using spent grains in bread.  Having 
tried some at the Hale's brewery in Seattle (yum!), I'm interested in 
diverting my spent grains from the compost pile to the dough mixer.  If 
anyone remembers the HBD issues I can look through, please let me know. 
 
Cheers!  Kevin 
 

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From: David Cummings <woodstok at rupert.oscs.montana.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 17:01:17 -0600
Subject: Re: Large fermenters - ceramic crocks

Quick note on this NOKO... guy.  With all due respect, this isn't alt.flame. 
If you've got a beef with the guy just fill his mailbox with what you've got 
to say.  It's been discouraging to see so many people get up in arms and 
post rebuttals in the forum.  This is a brewing forum and should be reserved 
for just that. 
 
With that said i'll step off my soapbox and throw in just two more cents 
worth of info.  I'm not sure how readily they're available, but i've got and 
old 10 gal ceramic crock that i'm using right now (as a primary fermenter) 
to brew large batches.  Actually I'm doing a two gal test batch first to see 
if it'll be brew-worthy.  Has anyone tried or used this before?  My only 
problem was cleaning/sanitizing the beast. 
 
Dave 
 
Life's a beer, 
Brew it up! 
 

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From: smithrh at esper.com (Smith Family)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:47:10 -0400
Subject: Travelling - New Knoxville Brewing Co.

A new microbrewery called New Knoxville Brewing Co. just opened in 
Knoxville, TN.  It is Knoxville's first brewery for wholesale distribution 
in nearly 90 years.  They are open for tours and tasting on Saturdays from 
noon to 4 p.m., and by appointment.  All grain brewing and open fermenters 
are used.  Cherokee Distributing Co. is the distributor, and Swanky English 
Ale is the first product.  Distribution is expanding towards Nashville, 
Chattanooga, Bristol and Asheville NC.  They still have some stock for sale. 
Their number is 423-521-7870. 
 
Bob Smith 
 

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From: smithrh at esper.com (Smith Family)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:47:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Catalogues

I've been ordering from The Grape and Granary in Akron, Ohio, 800-695-9870, 
for a while.  Their prices beat all others I've seen, but I haven't searched 
extensively.  I've been happy with their products, but I don't claim any 
expertise.  I'm interested in other opinions. 
 
Bob Smith 
 

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From: Delano Dugarm <adugarm at worldbank.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:10:07 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Potatoes

Brian Bliss writes about malting potatoes and using them as a 
adjunct. 
 
 I've never heard of malting potates, and always thought 
that the sprouted ones had "gone bad." 
 The best reference I've found for potatoes is Brad Kraus 
"This Spud's for You -- Potatoes as a Brewing Adjunct," _Zymurgy_ 
17 (4) 78-81 (1994). 
 From this I get three ways of using potatoes as an 
adjunct. 
 1) Peel and boil the potatoes, mash and add to the mash. 
 2) Peel and boil the potatoes.  Cool to around 140, add 
amylase and let that convert the starches.  Then add to the mash, 
sparge as usual. 
 3) Boil instant potatoes and add to the mash. 
 I recently tried #3 and had the Stuck Mash from Hell(SM). 
Sure, I use a zapap lauter tun, particularly prone to stuck 
mashes.  Sure, I've had stuck mashes before.  This, though, was 
the first mash that was so solidly stuck that I could lift it out 
and _no_ liquid came through the false bottom.  Perhaps rice 
hulls would have helped. 
 I've never seen anyone claim that potatoes add much if 
any flavor to beer.  Given the problems I've had with them, I 
prefer more easily used adjuncts. 
 
Delano DuGarm 
adugarm at worldbank.org 

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From: m.bryson2 at genie.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 00:49:00 UTC 0000
Subject: Errant messages

   Has anyone else received multilple email messages stating that: 
 
1) You have been removed from the mailing list :( 
 
2) You have been added to the mailing list :) 
 
And so on. 
 
   I actually like the multiple digests/day. However, these automated 
messages are getting a bit irritating. 
   Now back to brewing... 
 
        Matthew Bryson 

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From: Jim Nasiatka-Wylde <Jwylde at interaccess.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:23:03 -0500
Subject: O2 Grades/Seibolt Inst.

Hey all! 
 
Time for my $0.02...  Regarding the 'purity' of welding grade 
O2 for non-gaseous contaminants - if you're that worried about 
them, get yourself a HEPA capsule filter and put it in the line. 
 
You can get them from places like Fischer Scientific, and they 
range in size from 2" dia x 4 - 6" long to 1/2" dia x 1 - 2" long. 
Barnstead makes a nice small one for use on the end of thier RO 
water units that is of the smaller variety.  It's ok for water 
filtering, but has such a high pressure drop (read low flow) that 
it's better for air.  0.2 uM will filter out just about anything, 
and it'll last a loooonnnnng time given the volume of gas flowed. 
 
In other questions - does anyone have the scoop on a place here 
in Chicago called the Seibolt Institute (sp?)  I've decided it's 
time to educate the Homo-Heights Brewery staff and bring up our 
collective skills - and I want to know a bit more about them before 
I get on any more mailing lists.  I've heard that Miller and 
Budweiser send all their people there, but I'd like some more hard 
information if anyone has it. 
 
Thanks! 
 
Jamie 
All the money in the world is no match for hard work and ingenuity... 
 ____ 
 \  /   Nothing is so strong as Gentleness;       JWylde at interaccess.com 
  \/       nothing so gentle as real strength           Nasiatka at anl.gov 
 

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From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:10:57 -0500
Subject: Oxygen Grades/Pitching Temps/Hazelnut Extract/Decoction/Wheeler

>From: "Donald A. Put" <daput at pe.net> 
>Subject: Oxygen grades 
 
>>Welding grae Oxygen should NEVER be used for human consumption. 
> 
 So, if someone has something 
>to add--in agreement or contrary to what I've been told--please join in. 
 Personally, I've used industrial grade oxygen for years in my 
>brewery, and I know of quite a few micros/brewpubs that do the same. 
 
        I use welding grade O2 at the Little Apple, supplied to a 15 micron 
stone set into the cold side of the heat exchanger.... I know that the only 
professionally trained head brewer in this area (Bill Cherry, Masters, UC 
Davis, Boulevard Brewing) uses an industrial air compressor to supply his 
oxygenation needs, filtered through a .2 (?) micron filter, like those you 
would see as a transducer protector on medical equipment...He says the 
filter is to trap bacteria. But, when I thought of the question of medical 
grade vs industrial grade O2, the only negative I could think of, (or in 
this case was told about) was that there might be some oils in the valves or 
industrial grade regulators. But thinking back to scuba training, I remember 
that they only use a silicone or some other inert lubricants for any thing 
that might encounter pressurized O2 for fear  of an explosion or fire. So, 
why would it be any different for your welder? I couldn't imagine his 
regulator had any oxidizable lubes within, so why should mine? Besides, most 
of the fellas I know in brewing use what I use, industrial grade. Is it 
optimal? Perhaps not, but we have had no problems here. And who wants to pay 
more for the same stuff with a pretty tank around it? 
 
>From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) 
>Subject: Pitching temp for Weizen, Cu corrosion in fridge 
 
>     You are correct in being afraid of thermal shock, 
 
        No experience with pitching temps on lagers, but when I use a fresh 
block of DRY yeast for a brew, I think there might be  shock involved, but 
one which the manufacturer recommends. My yeast is stored at 36-38 F and 
re-hydrated for 10/60 in 100 F H2O, then attemperated with chilled wort at 
66F for 10/60 before being pitched... 
 
>From: Darrin Pertschi <darrinp at cowles.com> 
 Can anyone recommend an 
>appropriate amount of Hazelnut extract to use for 5 gal.? 
 
        You might try using a syringe or pipette to measure small amounts 
into a known quantity of beer until you like the taste, then factor it up 
for the full amount of your batch...this is one area where only trial and 
error will suffice.. 
 
>From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu> 
>Subject: Re: decoction mashing 
> 
>George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) wrote: 
>>How many people out there decoction mash?  Do you know why?  Do you think it 
>>makes a difference?  How about the pro's in the audience? 
 
>I make mostly German style beers and I decoction mash all of them, strictly 
>for the flavors and aromas it produces, which is probably why most brewers 
>(who do) do it these days. I believe this is the only way to consistently 
>obtain certain aromatic components. 
 
        I agree with Tracy on the flavors from decoction, but believe you 
can come pretty damn close with todays malts on just a single infusion. Most 
of the brewers I know do just a single, but some are capable of doing 
stepped infusions, with steam fired tuns and mash rakes. Most of us don't 
have such things. Including cereal cookers. You could always transfer the 
decocted portion to the kettle, but what a hassle! 
> 
>From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU> 
>Subject: Rodenbach and acids (Wheeler's P) 
 
Al: >> Perhaps the author should be sure before he puts pen to paper. 
Indeed the microbe is different. 
 
>As I recall one of the Rodenbachs studied 
>brewing in England and apparently learned about the storage of the beer in 
>large wood vessles. 
 
        I have received a comment or 2 regarding Wheelers Porter, asking for 
references, of which I have none. I just reprinted the article from an 
English  brewpaper, and have no idea as to it's original date.. When I spoke 
to Graham, he said he would send a disk with more info and references 
within, but I have not yet received them. I must admit that I find the 
article very stimulating, and tend to be a Wheeler history believer, but 
what do I know? He said he would soon be getting on line, and I have 
provided him with the HBD details, so with any luck you may soon have him 
personaaly answering your questions. I believe there is some work going on 
with an American publication for one of the brew mags, as well. 
 
Jethro 
 
Cheers! 
Rob Moline 
Little Apple Brewing Company 
Manhattan, Kansas 
 
"The more I know about beer, the more I realize I need to know more about 
beer!"
 

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