---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Secondary, ("David R. Burley")
  Pumpkin,Newbie, ("David R. Burley")
  Copyrights once more... (Paul A. Hausman)
  Sorghumcentrists. (Russell Mast)
  Elk Mountain?? ("Michael D'Amico")
  O2 Barrier Bags ("Huyck, Randall W.")
  Magnesium ((William P Giffin))
  Subject: More on wort cooling ((Ken ))
  Gelatine, Calcium ("David R. Burley")
  Hopeless jokes,Wit in space,bushwhacking ("David R. Burley")
  Re: HSA (Jeff Frane)
  Boling Over (Ashley)
  [none] (Ashley)
  HBD, Copyrights, and Making Money (Kirk R Fleming)
  Need help with instructions ("Matt Wise")
  City boy turned yeast rancher (Scott Murman)
  OK, I'll Bite... (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  The Jethro Gump Report--Copyright (Rob Moline)
  Stainless Brew Pot Problems? ("BILL RICHARD, 1-3789, PAGE 204-2905, FAB 15 RTP")

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 29 Aug 96 17:22:06 EDT
Subject: Secondary,

Brewsters: 
 
Tom asks when should he go to the secondary and dry hop his pale ale.  I 
sugggest the appropriate time is when the major activity is over, a majority of
crud has settled out, but there are still signs of some fermentation.  The 
continuting fermentation will protect you from oxidation on transferrring. 
Waiting about a week after pitching is about right for most normal OG beers. I 
suggest you put your hops in a cheese cloth bag with sterilized marbles, boil 
it
briefly ( 1 min or less), covered, in a small ( 1-2 cups) amount of water, and 
steep it for a few minutes to reduce the population of bacteria and yeasties 
and
add the bag and the water to your brew.  Not exactly dry hopping but it will 
give you more dependable results. Even though hops do give some bacteria 
resistance, they are loaded with bacteria and yeast, as are most natural 
products. 
- -------------------------------------------------------- 
Tam asks about applejack lager. Good idea! Use apple cider (for you Brits and  
others, US calls apple juice with pulp "cider" and fermented apple juice "hard 
cider"*) fresh from the mill if you can, clarified juice in those store bought 
jugs often has preservatives in them to stop fermentation, cider with no 
preservatives in the store is usually heavily oxidized and is in some state of 
fermentation. Instead of heating it to sterilize ( or should I say Pasteurize )
it, treat it with the equivalent of 1/8 tsp of metabisulfite (MB) per *five* 
gallons of juice ( 1/8 tsp of MB in 5 tsp of water, take 1 tsp per gallon). 
This will reduce the population of bacteria and yeasties substantially , and 
stabilize the juice to oxidation. Add this about 12-24 hours before adding the 
juice to your brew and the sulfurous acid level will be low enough not to 
interfere with the fermentation Keep it cool, in the 'fridge if possible.  If 
you can, be there at the mill during the pressing and have them fill your jugs 
which have MB already in them.  Add pectic enzyme to the juice to prevent 
cloudiness.  The sugar content of the juice should be about the same as your 
beer, so don't correct for that, but you will have a little more acidity, which
is what you want. 
 
* I remember a British friend visiting the US for the first time being amazed 
at
the cheapness and availability of cider - and was dejected when he found out it
was apple juice and not the good stuff.  My first alcoholic beverage I made at 
17 in my grandfather's barn was based on apple cider, brown sugar and raisins. 
It wasn't great, but it was ok for drinkin' and fishin'. 
- ----------------------------------------------------------- 
Jorge Blasig (hi Jorge) asks if he can prepare specialty malts at home from 
pale
ale malts and grains, since supply of these in Uruguay is limited to 
non-existent.  I suggest you go back a few HBDs and read AlK's excellent 
discussion of how specialty malts are made.  Also, Papazian has some clues in 
his book, Joy... 
 
I routinely prepare barley (from an animal feed suppply store) and oatmeal for 
my stouts at home by roasting them in the oven.  Keep a sample from your last 
roasting, so you can compare the color of the grains and get consistent 
results,
since malts and grains have varying moisture levels.I usually dry the grains at
about 200F for a few hours before I high roast  them at 450F for 20 min until 
10% of the grains are black and 10% are light brown, to get better consistency.
 
If you need crystal type malt, soak pale ale malt in water for 24 hours in the 
refrigerator ( to prevent mashing and fermentation and acidity formation). 
Remove the excess water, place on a baking sheet (mine has 1/2" high sides) and
cover with aluminum foil and hold at around 200F - 212F for 45-60 minutes after
it has come to temperature, sampling and comparing with your standard.  Remove 
the foil and dry completely. Dried Crystal grain should be dark reddish inside 
and crush like a piece of sugar when you bite it. 
 
Vienna or Munich type malt can be made by roasting dry lager (but try your pale
ale) malt for three hours at 212-225F on an open cookie sheet.  Longer and 
higher is Munich style. 
 
I use a meat type dial thermometer to measure the grain bed temperature so I 
don't have to keep opening the oven door. 
 
You can judge if the grains are dry by weighing a known volume (say a 1/4 cup) 
on a simple balance scale made from a ruler with a paper cup on both ends 
balanced with a round pen, taped in the middle and perpendicular to the ruler's
long axis, as a pivot and use coins or sugar as a counterbalance.   Tape the 
cups to the ruler with a loop of tape on the bottom and move the cup with the 
counterbalance towards the center as it dries, until you get consistent results
about 1/2 hour apart. You can calculate approximately (the grains do shrink a 
little) how much water was removed by simply taking the ratio of the distances 
from the center for the two cups.  Alternatively, you can move the pivot 
position if that is easier than moving the cups. 
 
A better drier than what I use can be made from a large pan with many holes 
drilled in it smaller than the grain or cut the bottom out and affix aluminum 
screening to give a good air flow. The advantage to this method is that you can
do more malt at a time.  Be sure to stir occasionally if you do it this way. 
- ---------------------------------------------------------- 
Chuch Wettergreen questions my ability to taste iodophor in beer taps that have
been sanitized with iodophor and not cleared. I can only suggest that you go to
O'Connors in Bround Brook NJ (rt 22E) and taste their beer.  I spoke to the 
barkeep about it ( DUH?), since every beer I tried and rejected tasted like it.
We are talking Pilsner Urquell, Dos Equis Blanca, Foster's, etc.etc. We got 
there early in the AM after golf, (not THAT early) and were the first 
customers,
I guess and ordered pitchers.  Later beer was OK, but my 'buds were ruined. 
Other times, I haven't had a problem and I don't think it was me because my 
buddies had a similar response.  You should have seen their faces after they 
tasted the Pilsner Urquell ( or should I say PU). They thought I was nuts after
I gave them a big build up about how this was going to be MUCH better than the 
american lager some prefer ( oh well, they are *golfing* buddies). 
 
I suggest you try a little sip of iodophor if you think it is tasteless. 
- ----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
 
Dave Burley 
 

Return to table of contents


From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 29 Aug 96 17:21:59 EDT
Subject: Pumpkin,Newbie,

Brewsters: 
Part 2 
 
AlK asks about the source of the taste of various salts. On the subject of 
bitterness arising from the metal ion and/or the sulphate.  In the absence of 
absolute knowledge or a professional quote, I would vote for both, since I have
read it a number of times. I do know metal ions can impart bitterness, since I 
am too familiar with iron and manganese in water ( although at near neutral it 
could be the hydroxides - see below).  Sodium chloride has a hot taste and is 
reputed to impart a smoothing effect on beers.  Does this mean that sodium is 
not bitter?  I guess so. 
 
I speculate below: 
 
In Chemistry 101 we learn that basic things are bitter and acidic things are 
sour.  This was a way chemists evaluated new compounds -(sometimes to their 
detriment if their research subject was lead, mercury or arsenic compounds. 
ergo
"sugar of lead" - i think it is lead acetate).  So what is important in 
determining sour or bitter when a salt dissolves in water, is"what is the 
proton
ion to hydroxide ion ratio in the salt solution"? At 1:1 this is neutral and pH
= 7 so should be neither bitter nor sour. At greater than one, pH <7 acidic and
sour.  At less than one, pH >7, and bitter 
 
If one dissolves calcium sulfate in water it is probably ( I don't know) 
neutral to very slightly acidic since calcium is a weak base  and will take up 
hydroxide ions for it's formation of Ca(OH)+ (pKdiss = 2.6) and sulfate comes 
from a strong acid  but will take up protons for its formation of ( HSO4)- ion 
(pKdiss = 2.1). In all cases of divalent ions, Ca, Mg,CO3, SO4, there are two 
equilibria to complicate things, In the case of Mg, Ca, SO4 the first stage 
i.e.
M(OH)2 to M(OH)+ is 100% ionized. Not so in the case of carbonate, H2CO3 can 
exist in solution of CO2 as you know. Based on this, sodium sulfate should be 
alkaline, since the sulfate ion pulls protons out of solution to form some 
bisulfate ions (HSO4, pK = 2.1) and the pH should increase. Sodium chloride 
should be neutral since sodium is a strong base and hydrochloric acid is a 
strong acid, which may explain its hot, ionic taste, i.e. neither sour or 
bitter.  Calcium carbonate (pK = 7 and 11 for carbonic acid) is made up of a 
weak base and a weaker acid, so it is bitter. Sodium carbonate is made up of a 
strong base and a weak acid  and it is really bitter. I predict that calcium 
chloride will be neutral to sour since the Calcium ion will take up some 
hydroxide ions, whereas the chloride comes from a strong acid.. 
 
Although the first ionization for both Ca and Mg is 100% one could speculate 
that magnesium sulfate should be less bitter than calcium sulfate and a lot 
less
than sodium sulfate, since even though magnesium's first ionization is 100% pK 
=0 its second is 2.6, Ca's second pK = 1.2, pK and the sodium would not take up
any hydroxides leaving the sulfate to take up protons and shift the ratio in 
favor of the hydroxide ions. For carbonate the pKs are 7 and 11.  Its salts 
would be more bitter than the comparable sulfate salt. 
 
In its reaction with phosphate, magnesium has a pK = 24 and calcium has a pK = 
33, so it will theoretically take more magnesium to drop the pH than it will 
calcium, but both will be pretty effective, since they are both really 
insoluble.  All pK info from Rubber Chem. Handbook 73rd ed. 
 
So the answer is, as far as salts go whatever makes the pH go up above pH = 7 
will make a solution bitter        ( whether it is sulfate or carbonate taking 
up protons for example). Therefore, with this simple model it is the sulfate 
that is responsible for the bitterness of the pure salt of calcium and 
magnesium
sulfate solutions. In the case of metal hydroxides or oxides, these are bases 
and can supply the hydroxide which will be bitter and the acids which can 
supply
protons and be sour, which is where we started. As we discussed above a wort is
not a simple thing, and will have many competing simultaneous reaction. In the 
case of calcium sulfate in beer an excess of sulfate will be there relative to 
the calcium because of the phosphate precipitation.  These same reasonings 
should argue that phosphate solution derived from phosphate salts should also 
be
bitter, since they should be alkaline and they are, witness TSP (tri-sodium 
polyphosphate) as a model. 
 
So, it is the calcium and magnesium ions which exhibit control of the sulfate 
and phosphate concentrations and therefore the bitterness.   Which is the 
bitterest on a molar basis, sulfate or phosphate? Based on the pK, I guess the 
phosphate would be, since it has two equilibria to suck up protons vs one for 
sulfate, assuming the first eqm is totally dissociated in both cases.   So in 
beer is it the calcium, magnesium or the sulfate and the phosphate which 
controls the mineral bitterness? I submit that it is both anions and cations, 
based on this reasoning. 
 
Where this argument doesn't hold up is that beer has a pH that is acidic and 
therefore we shouldn't taste any mineral bitternesss. Is it that our taste buds
somehow neutralize the acid taste out and evaluate the salts? or that taste bud
reactions are sorta like little pH meters?  If this is the case can the metal 
ions with a relatively insoluble hydroxide like Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn act as a source 
of hydroxide ions and taste bitter,whereas sodium would not?  I could guess so 
and therefore both the cations and anions would be responsible the bitteness. 
 
I said it was speculation didn't I? 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
 
Dave Burley 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Paul A. Hausman <paul at lion.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:22:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Copyrights once more...

 
Derek Lyons <elde at hurricane.net> wrote: 
> At 10:35 AM 8/28/96 -0600, you wrote: 
> > 
> >*The third line "Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas" seems pretty straight forward: 
> > 
> >This line is simply stating that said noun from the first line has taken 
> >the time to register said nouns entire posting to the HBD with the US 
> >copyright office. By doing this, all persons or people wishing to use or 
> >quote from said nouns HBD post should ask for permission from said nouns 
> >lawyers or face criminal charges and federal copyright infringement. 
> 
> Actually the legal protections do not entirely kick in unless said noun 
> actually fills out the paperwork and submits it to the appropriate authority.
 
In the interest of accuracy: 
 
There is very little actually gained by prior registration of a copyright. 
And, in fact, you have copyright to what you write, whether you make these 
silly little notations or not.  The most significant gain from prior 
registration is that you can collect "statutory damages", you don't 
have to demonstrate any losses by you or gain by the person violating your 
copyrights.  However, I doubt that even Mr. AK is spending the $20 per 
document (I think that's the current fee) to register his copyrights with 
the US CR Office. 
 
The only significant thing gained by the copyright notice is that someone 
reprinting your words can't claim he or she thought them to be public 
domain.  A minor defense, doesn't get you off the hook entirely anyhow. 
 
> Also the 'Fair Use' doctrine allows quite a bit of usage of said nouns posts 
> without requiring permissions from said noun. 
 
The fair use doctrine is complex and covers many issues.  However, under 
no conditions does it allow for reprinting of *entire* copyrighted pieces. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* Paul A. Hausman                                           Paul at Lion.com * 
* Lion Technology Inc.                             Voice:  (201) 383-0800 * 
* P.O. Box 700, Lafayette, NJ  07848                 Fax:  (201) 383-2459 * 
*************************************************************************** 

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From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:21:16 -0500
Subject: Sorghumcentrists.

 
I'm back, and I'm mad as hell. 
 
> From: shawn at aob.org (Shawn Steele) 
> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:02:48 -0600 
> Subject: New Copyright Notice 
 
> I've had enough of this thread 
 
Yes, and the next fool to even MENTION it should be deluged with private 
e-mail, and that INCLUDES me.  Flame me.  Go ahead, it's good practice. 
But take it PRIVATE.  To me. 
 
> From: John Wilkinson <jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com> 
> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:09:00 -0500 
> Subject: RE: Sorghum/Eurocentrists 
> 
> They certainly have a right to their opinions, as do I, but I don't think 
> hbd is the place to discuss these non-beer related things. 
 
But this IS a beer-related thing. 
 
> The guy who thought 
> Sorghum beer was foul is certainly entitled to his opinion too. 
 
Sure he is, but so are those among us who think that sorghum beer ISn't foul. 
 
> I don't recall 
> anyone jumping all over people for saying much worse things about Bud/Miller/
> Coors. 
 
Well, you haven't been here very long, have you?  I've seen that, um, maybe 
about twice a year for 4 years here.  Some idiot starts defending that 
undrinkable swill, saying it's tolerable or some foolish nonsense.  It's not. 
And this isn't the place to discuss it.  Or is it? 
 
> How about keeping hbd to beer discussions. 
 
I want a recipe for sorghum beer, and I want one now.  I want to hear about 
how to judge good sorghum beer from bad, how to serve it.  I want to hear 
about the history and cultural significance of it, just like I want to hear 
about the Rhineheitsgebot.  And, I want to hear if that history involves 
Eurocentrism, or, hey let's just call it what it is, racism. 
 
I think it's a fully appropriate topic for the HBD.  What's NOT appropriate 
is a BORING discussion of what is and is not appropriate to post here. 
Next time you read someone doing that, ask them to cease and decist, politely 
or otherwise, but do so in private e-mail.  Go ahead, hit me now. 
 
Okay, now what I want is for some boob to nitpick on Al K. for nitpicking 
on someone else, and then encourage Al to launch into a mulyi-volume rant 
in order to "defend" himself publicly, all the while admitting that the post 
REALLY doesn't belong in the HBD.  (That's from a couple weeks ago.) 
 
Then, I want one of you to ask a relatively simple question, maybe about 
bleach, and then I want ALL of the rest of you to respond to it, even if 
you're saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING as the guy before you.  What the heck, 
I -like- the way you say it better than him. 
 
Maybe Nokomaroon is right about us?  Nah. 
 
- -R 

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From: "Michael D'Amico" <damico1 at ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:28:40 -0400
Subject: Elk Mountain??

Mark Warrington was looking for Elk Mountain the other day. 
 
It is available here in southern New Hampshire, but I'm a couple of 
towns over from the brewery. 
They are offering a Brown Ale and a Lager, the lager wasn't bad. 
Production may be slow since AB is replacing all of the equipment at the 
Merrimack plant, where 
they make all of the AB "specialty" beers, over to equipment better 
suited to making the variety 
of beers some of us are used to. 
 
I'm only a customer of their gift shop..... 

Return to table of contents


From: "Huyck, Randall W." <rwh0303 at hub.doh.wa.gov>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 16:41:11 -0700
Subject: O2 Barrier Bags

Some months back there was a flurry of posts requesting info on oxygen 
barrier bags for storing hops.  If anyone knows of a source for these, 
preferably any compatible with a "Seal-A-Meal" type bag sealer, please 
let me know via private e-mail.  Thanks in advance. 
 
 
Randall W. Huyck 
Internet:  RWH0303 at hub.doh.wa.gov 
 

Return to table of contents


From: bill-giffin at juno.com (William P Giffin)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:37:39 cst
Subject: Magnesium

Good evening all, 
>>Ken S: 
Magnesium is unpleasantly bitter in concentrations of around 30 ppm or 
more. 
 I guess the speculation was that adding magnesium would supply a 
bitterness 
(however unpleasant) more cheaply than the equivalent (and more 
expensive) 
amount of hops. 
<< 
 
Burton water has about 60 ppm of magnesium. 
 
My reading of the subject indicates that what Ken say is true, I just 
don't understand why Burton beer doesn't have this unpleasant 
characteristic. 
 
I wrote: 
>What does the magnesium in Burton water have to do with the bittering of 
the 
>beer? 
 
>>Al K: 
Nothing, to my knowledge. 
<< 
Gee, Terry Foster seems to think that it enhances the dryness of the beer 
and Greg Noonan states that it is very bitter in excess I take that to 
mean that perhaps it is only pleasantly bitter when not used in excess. 
 
>>Al K: 
 I don't think so.  Both Burton-on-Trent and Vienna water have more than 
60 ppm of Magnesium. 
<< 
 
What you say is true about Burton and Vienna, but these are exceptions to 
the rule.  Put 60 ppm in your beer and you will probably find that you 
will become just a bit more regular and your beer will have a nasty 
unpleasant bitterness to it. 
 
Bill 

Return to table of contents


From: kbjohns at escape.com (Ken )
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:57:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Subject: More on wort cooling

>If you have kegging equip. you can just fill a keg with water and put it 
>in the frig. and chill over night. After your boil, just hook up the keg 
>to your chiller and blow the cold water through the chiller with CO2 at 
>what ever flow you like. I guess you could put your keg higher than your 
>kettle and use gravity, but CO2 is cheap. 
 
>John Carpenter, Chapel cHill, NC 
>email - jwc at med.unc.edu 
 
In my experience, and using a very efficient counterflow wort chiller 
(MAXICHILLER), I need 27 gals of 66F water to cool 5 gals from boiling to 
71F in 8.5 mins. 
 
I don't understand how 5 gals of 33F water from a keg could cool 5 gals of 
212F water to less than 106F. Is there an explanation that I'm missing? 
Ken 
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.wp.com/HOSI/pbscat.html 
East Coast Brewing supply URL 
http://virtumall.com/EastCoastBrewing/ECBMain.html
 

Return to table of contents


From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 29 Aug 96 19:55:26 EDT
Subject: Gelatine, Calcium

Brewsters: 
 
Jack Schmidling asks about the use of gelatine for clarification.  It reacts 
with the yeast through electrical neutralization of the charge on the yeast and
being of a high molecular weight can assemble several yeast bodies and 
flocculate them.  It is possible the protein is flocculating some of the salts 
and miscellaneous organic matter in your water. Why not take some of the stuff 
that sticks like glue, treat it with conc. nitric acid, then conc. ammonia. Of 
course, only a drop of each and wash in between. don't mix the acid and 
ammonia.
If it turns yellow and then orange, it's protein and likely some gelatin, but 
probably not all of it. 
 
In my sloppy chemistry days, I once had an orange fingertip from this reaction.
My lab instructor responded to my question about what to put on a nitric acid 
discoloration on my finger with "neutralize it with ammonia"  What a joker. 
- ------------------------------------------------------------- 
John Posing writes about finding yeast coating on the bottles only on one and 
the same side for all bottles.  I've also seen this and assumed it was due to 
static charge of some sort attracting yeast to one side of the bottle, but I 
don't really know.  I toyed with temperature, but discarded that.  It is 
possible that light striking the bottle generates a charge there.  Does any of 
this make sense based on your observation? 
- ------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
Dave Burley 
 

Return to table of contents


From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 29 Aug 96 19:55:29 EDT
Subject: Hopeless jokes,Wit in space,bushwhacking

Brewsters: 
 
Who says chemists and engineers are a dreary bunch? The following quotes from a
Chem & Engr. News Newscripts 13 May 1996 should dispel that idea and give you a
good idea of just how humorous they really are. 
 
" The vast amounts of information available on the Internet include the 
following account, supplied anomymously, of the Seatte Symphony's performance 
of
Beethoven's Ninth some years ago.  A long segment of the symphony - perhaps 20 
minuntes - does not call for the bass violins, who decided to sieze the 
opportunity and dash across the street to hoist a few and dash back in time to 
chime in properly.  To gain a margin of safety, however , one of the musicians 
surreptitiously tied a string around the relevant pages of the conductor's 
score. 
 
When the group hied back to the hall and scurried into their seats they found 
the conductor to be furious.  and why not? It was the bottom of the Ninth, the 
score was tied and the basses were loaded." 
 
If you don't know baseball, you won't get it. Even if you do, maybe you won't. 
If you do get it, maybe you'll be sorry. 
- ------------------------------------------------------------ 
On this same page is a description of wheat that has been developed for growing
in space.  Does this mean only wheat beers in  space or can a space barley be 
far behind? The wheat is called USU-Apogee is 18 inches tall and will grow 600 
bushels to the acre, about thrice the normal yield. It will likely be grown on 
the International Space Station scheduled for completion in 2002. Doug Ming of 
NASA, who could probably have chosen a better phrase, says "'We're tickled to 
death with Apogee" 
 
NASA also says the wheat bakes OK but points out that "Making bread in space is
still uncharted territory" 
Hey, so is beer making in space, but HBD was there first. I can see it now - 
low
gravity weiss, high gravity weiss ........ 
- ------------------------------------------------------------ 
And finally on this same page is an article on how to bushwhack telemarketers 
who interfere with your life.  There are a number of suggestions, but my two 
favorites are 
 
1) I'm sorry, but (name) is too drunk to come to the phone right now. 
2) Is this about the gonorrhea test? 
- ------------------------------------------------------------ 
 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
Dave Burley 
 

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From: Jeff Frane <jfrane at teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:57:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: HSA

I see that the subject of Hot Side Aeration has once again raised its head 
in the HBD.  I don't know how many years it's been now since George Fix 
introduced the concept here, but it's caused no end of discussion since 
then. 
 
When I spoke to one commercial about it this Spring (a fellow who, like 
me, has endless respect and affection for George), he utter some curse 
about how much ruckus George had raised, and all for naught. 
 
Seriously, how many of us have ever had *any* problem with our beers 
that was attributable to HSA?  Really? 
 
I think that George's research was valuable, but that the entire question 
of HSA is moot, unless beer is going to be stored for a long time, and 
probably unless the beer is fairly pale and delicate.  I'm certainly open 
to debate on the subject, but in my own experience and observation, 
the only significant oxidation problem is post-cooling; i.e., people 
splashing beer when racking or bottling, or subjecting their bottled 
beer to unhealthy conditions (such as heat). 
 
I know there are a lot of brewers that like to FRET about stuff like this, 
but for those of us who have real problems to deal with (like the damn 
fruit flies that left me a nice dose of acetobacter or the mice that 
want to eat my malt), HSA can likely be left on the shelf. 
 
- --Jeff Frane 
 

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From: Ashley <ashley at u030.aone.net.au>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:09:33 +1000
Subject: Boling Over

Boling Over 
 
I find that the thick blanket of protein head seems to act like a cover on 
the pot. I break the head on mine up with a spoon until it is no longer, and 
reduce the heat accordingly. 
 
Ashley 
 

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From: Ashley <ashley at u030.aone.net.au>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:09:34 +1000
Subject: [none]

>Kevin-- 
>>Bleach is a solution of sodium hypochlorite, made 
>>by the reaction of chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide.  What remains after 
>>a sterilization with bleach are sodium chloride and sodium hydroxide. 
>>Using the amounts prescribed by a number of homebrew texts, these 
>>compounds are going to be in such low concentration that they won't affect 
>>flavor or wort pH, even if you don't rinse. 
> 
>Well, you knew that when you said "sterilization" you were going to hear 
>from me.  I'm sure Kevin meant "sanitation," and he may be right about 
>the results of all the reactions being sodium chloride and sodium hydroxide, 
>*BUT* these reactions would have to run to completion with *all* the sodium 
>hypochorite.  This is not usually the case.  Also the chlorine in the bleach 
>can react with organic compounds in the wort.  No, at the recommended 
>concentrations for sanitation (200ppm of Cl -- which is 1 tbsp per gallon) 
>rinsing should be done or there is a high risk of chlorophenols being 
>created and they are particularly unpleasant-smelling. 
> 
>Al. 
 
A tablespoon of bleach per gallons of water? Doesn't Papazian etc recommend 
2 teaspoons per 5 gallons which is about 5ml per 10 litres of water? 
 
Ashley 
 

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From: Kirk R Fleming <flemingk at usa.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:23:11 +0100
Subject: HBD, Copyrights, and Making Money

Recently, Shawn wrote: 
 
> I've had enough of this thread and I truly believe that it's quite 
> pathetic that the Internet has fallen to such levels.  The free sharing 
> of ideas used to be a strong feature of the 'net, but now everyone just 
> wants to figure out how to use someone else's ideas to make a quick 
> buck. 
 
I'll abuse this forum to solicit private email on this topic.  Shawn expresses 
one point of view, but I think it's a bit harsh.  Here's another one: the HBD 
has a great deal of value, and subscribers we all "know" have set up search 
engines to add value to the HBD archives at Stanford.  This is a tremendous 
added value, since searchability and indexibility are real value multipliers 
of electronic info, eh? 
 
Well, that searchability may already take us into the gray area of Law, and 
may already displease those who've previously contributed knowledge to the HBD.
But, extend that value-added by copying the HBD archives to a CD, adding index,
database, and search capabilities (of arbitrary sophistication).  Now suppose 
I've done this, and want to sell it. 
 
Yes, it's the information in the archives that the buyer ultimately wants (but 
already can get for free), but it' the value-added I THINK I'M SELLING. I feel 
I'm charging for the CD media ($8), and whatever I feel the market will bear 
for
the overlying software (that's my business). 
 
Am I "trying to make a buck off other people's ideas", or am I just providing 
an enormous enhancement to what is already apparently an acceptable idea (an 
interface to the archives)? 
 
Now, suppose I add a statement on my CD that says "All material in these 
archives is the property of the individual contributors thereto, and is 
protected
under US copyright law".  Good enough?  How does this concept differ 
(philosophically, materially, morally, etc) from a free, primitive front-end to
the archives? 
 
I'm NOT saying it doesn't differ.  I'm asking your opinion via private email. 
 
KRF Colorado Springs 
flemingk at usa.net 

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From: "Matt Wise" <matt.wise at kwsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 22:16:16 -0400
Subject: Need help with instructions

 I am about ready to start my second batch of brew.  My first was easy to 
make and tasted good and all I did was follow the instructions included 
with the kit.  This time, however, the instructions aren't as clear, plus, 
from what I read in the Homebrew Digest, you don't really need 
instructions.  What I have is:  3.5 lb Hopped Malt Extract (Munton & Fison 
Old Ale brand), 1 pk dry brewing yeast, 1 bag (appx. 1 lb) sugar, and 1 bag 
(appx. 1/8 lb) of sugar.  One set of instructions (on the can) don't call 
for any sugar or any boiling of the extract w/ water which is what I did 
last time. 
I know enough to add the yeast once the mixture is appx. 70degF, and to let 
it ferment for the proper time, etc.  Can anyone give other ideas or 
instructions for using what I have to make some beer?  Why does 1 of my 
sets of instructions say to add 1/2 teaspoon of sugar to each bottle? 
 
 Thanks, 
 Matt 

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From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:41:36 -0700
Subject: City boy turned yeast rancher

 
I'm trying my hand at culturing some yeast slants, and as expected, 
I've run into some problems.  I'm trying to culture straight from the 
Wyeast pack into slants.  The temperature here has gone up, and my 
apt. was hovering around 85 degrees.  This has caused the starter I 
made to go like a bat out of Hades, and also liquefied my slants that 
were made with gelatin.  I've since set the starter in cold water to 
at least slow things down a little, but I'm wondering if I should just 
forget about the slants.  It's been almost 2 days, and I've seen no 
signs of growth.  Is it still possible for the slants to recover?  I'd 
still like to get a culture from this yeast (1056), can I go directly 
from the sediment in either the starter or primary to a slant?  As 
long as I've got your attention, what effect will the high temps for 1 
1/2 days have on my starter (I'd at least like that to come through 
ok).  Also, do you swirl your starter before pitching it into the 
wort, or leave the sediment in the bottom?  Was that enough questions? 
 
Scott (off to buy a large bucket to keep my fermenters cooled in) 

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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:46:48 -0400
Subject: OK, I'll Bite...

Randy Erickson sets the bait... 
 
> I hope Ken adds to the thread. 
 
...and he takes it, hook, line, and sinker!  Actually, Randy, you explained 
it at least as well as I could have, so I'll just reiterate the lesson: 
 Electricity is like any tool -- use it safely and it'll work wonders; use it 
foolishly and you're asking for big trouble. 
 
The 220 / 110 "switching" I do is courtesy of a high-power diode that I can 
switch in and out as needed; I'm actually controlling the phase in a crude 
but effective way, so my power gets cut in *half* instead of reduced to 
*1/4*.  For boiling 6-1/2 gal wort in a 7-gal bucket, 1125W (power chopper 
ENGAGED) gives a nicely-rolling boil.  2250W (power-chopper BYPASSED) is good 
for quicker heating from sparge to boil.  I've experiemented with a midpoint 
power (1688W) using 110V; it too boils over, so the 1125W is probably about 
as good as it safely gets.  For more info on the Electric Brewery, see my web 
page (URL below). 
 
I think the key thing as others have pointed out is the WATT DENSITY of your 
element.  That's a measure of how much heat is produced on a given area of 
the element surface.  If you put all the heat (power) into the wort in one 
small spot (a small element wire), that spot could overheat the surrounding 
wort and scorch it.  If you "spread out" the same amount of power over a 
larger element, you get the same total heat into your wort, but each section 
of element is contributing a smaller portion of the heat compared with the 
first scenario.  Thus less "local heating" is going on but the same total 
heating is occurring. 
 
I've estimated off the cuff that a large kettle with one of those F-16 
burners can generate between 50 and 100 W/sq.in. on the bottom of the kettle. 
 I assume that whatever thermal effects occur are acceptable since this is 
how so many brewers work.  My electric boiler's elements run at ~54W/sq.in 
during heatup and half that during boiling, and I've not had scorching 
troubles.  Dion "Mr. RIMS" Hollenbeck recommends shooting for absolutely the 
lowest possible level in RIMS systems, and I would second that suggestion. 
 
How can you figure the watt density for your element?  Here's a quick'n'dirty 
rule o'thumb:  Most water heater elements I've seen have wires about 5/16" 
diameter, which means you conveniently have about 1 sq in of surface area per 
inch of length of wire.  So divide the element power by the element wire 
length to get the watts per square inch, and see how it compares with these 
figures. 
 
Ken Schwartz 
KennyEddy at aol.com 
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy 

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From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 22:48:51 -0500
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report--Copyright

                The Jethro Gump Report 
Copyrights- 
         I personally believe that it would be a wonderful thing for the HBD 
to be put onto CD-Rom, but I have also thought the same thing about a 
friend's nationally syndicated car talk show, Jeff Brooks' "On the Road." I 
told him I wished he would do it, but I don't think it proper for me to try 
and rip him off by doing it with out his blessings. 
        I think that anyone attempting to perform such a feat with the HBD 
should read the current Forbes magazine, Sept. 9, 1996, and peruse the 
article on page 134, "Cops and Robbers in Cyberspace." People who wish to 
use the works of others and those who wish to prevent such occurrences will 
both be delighted, as they point out that there is very little that really 
can be done, currently, to prevent such attempts, but they also detail the 
efforts of others, who are currently actively seeking the test cases they 
need to prevent such attempts, by making the first legal landmark cases 
against the infringers. "Be the first on your block to be..." 
        As I say, I think it would be not a bad idea, but without the 
permission of those who have gone before us, and as they are many, I feel 
that this is not 'do-able', legally and/or ethically. As the AOB is 
currently the 'maintainer' of the digest, I wish to state my desire that 
they continue to offer the digest as a free and open forum for ALL who wish 
to avail themselves of it. 
        I also hope that my dues to the IBS and the parent org, the AOB, be 
used to pursue most actively, any who would use the talents and time of 
those who have given freely of themselves to educate myself and the rest of 
the collective, for their own personal benefit. 
        I believe that any who tread this path would be, quite rightly, in a 
position of a precarious nature. 
        The point is, those who have posted to the HBD did so with the 
knowledge that their posts would be used as THEY intended. When you use 
their input for purposes, (and this is not to limit the use of excerpts 
purely intended for educational/not for profit use) not intended by the 
originators, you are violating their intent. This is, at this point, 
actionable. 
        But bring on the lawyers! Someone has to settle this.... 
Not so Cheerfully, 
Jethro 
 
Cheers! 
Rob Moline 
Little Apple Brewing Company 
Manhattan, Kansas 
 
"The more I know about beer, the more I realize I need to know more about 
beer!"
 

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From: "BILL RICHARD, 1-3789, PAGE 204-2905, FAB 15 RTP" <WRICHARD at ALOHA.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 22:01:44 PDT
Subject: Stainless Brew Pot Problems?

Hello All! 
 
I am new to this group and have a question that someone out there may be able 
to answer. I have always brewed with an enameled brewpot and recently bought a 
stainless steel brewpot.  The problem is this: now when I make a batch of beer 
it seems to have a metallic flavor to it.  Is this because of the stainless? 
The pot didn't cost alot ($25), is it "cheap" stainless?  What should I do to 
prevent this problem in the future? 
 
Thanks in advance, 
Bill 

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