---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  blowoff tube (bob rogers)
  small bottles (bob rogers)
  re: hydrometer readings ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Wild Yeast Detection? ((Craig Wynn))
  Re: Propane/CO2 bottles  (Spencer W Thomas)
  VIEWMASTER ((CLIFFORD L DAVIS))
  How Low Can You Go? (dbrigham at nsf.gov)
  RE: mashing mistakes (AJN)
  Bubbly mead, Venting, Baking malt extract ("David R. Burley")
  Hardness ((A. J. deLange))
  RE: Lager fermentation temp/ Marzen recipe ((George De Piro))
  Lambic production ((George De Piro))
  NEED INFO ABOUT YOU (YYQI%SBTV04 at btmv06.god.bel.alcatel.be)
  screw-off caps ("Taber, Bruce")
  Re: Acronyms (Kit Anderson)
  Re: Extraction rate (John DeCarlo)
  Re: Secondary concerns and Blow-Off (John DeCarlo)
  Efficiency and mashing out w/ boiling water ((Mike Spinelli))
  Channelling ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  Re: Help with WA State Laws (John DeCarlo)
  Re: priming/under carbonation (John DeCarlo)
  Re: Under Carbonation ((Jeff Smith))
  Re: blow-off tubes (Edward J. Steinkamp)
  Head vs. carbonation (John DeCarlo)
  Re: Extraction Efficency Woes (John DeCarlo)
  HSA, Ocktoberfest ((George J Fix))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bob rogers <bob at carol.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:39:33 -0400
Subject: blowoff tube

>>>I'll tell you why bother to use a blowoff tube. Last nite I fermented a 60% 
wheat 40% barley brew in a 6 gal. fermenter.  The wort was about 4.5 gallons 
with a nice eight inch space for the foam to expand into.  So I did it at 
room temperature 75-80F<<< 
 
i like to put the fermenter in a larger container. i can put cool water in 
the containter to reduce the fermenting temp, and if i ever have an 
overflow, it will flow into the container. 
 
bob-  brewing in the heart of the bible belt 
bob rogers   bob at carol.net 
 

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From: bob rogers <bob at carol.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:39:58 -0400
Subject: small bottles

for small bottles how bout coke bottles. just keep them dark :) 
 
bob- brewing in the heart of the bible belt 
bob rogers   bob at carol.net 
 

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From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at mail.chattanooga.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:07:51 +0700
Subject: re: hydrometer readings

Christian O Miller posted: 
 
>Can anyone suggest an easy way to take hydrometer readings for a bucket 
>of fermenting wort without pulling the top off, sterilizing a gravy 
>baster, and squeezing some into a flask? It seems like an easy way to 
>get an infection. 
 
FWIW, I've never (knocking on wood) had an infection from using a baster but I 
always soak it in Idophor and don't allow it to touch anything not sanitized.
 
If you're still dead set against a baster, here's a brain fart: Drill a hole in
the lid of the fermenter and insert some 1/8 or 3/16" santized tubing so that 
it's below the level of the brew-to-be and siphon out your sample. After you've
pulled your sample, raise the free end of the tube to allow all of the liquid 
in the tube drain back into the fermenter and cap or plug the end of the tube 
until time for the next sample.
 
c.d. pritchard  (cdp at chattanooga.net) 
     web page:  http://caladan.chattanooga.net/~cdp/index.html 

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From: cwynn at sawyer.ndak.net (Craig Wynn)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 02:20:34 GMT
Subject: Wild Yeast Detection?

I think I have this problem and I'd like to confirm it one way or 
another. I have an article in Vol. 2 # 6 1994 Brewing Techniques that 
discusses several methods. 
 
1. using "selective sugars" Only certain types of yeast will be able 
to grow on a these specific sugars. Maltotetraose, for example will 
not be fermented by most strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae and 
Sacch...   uvarum, but it will be fermented by Saccharomyces 
diastaticus and some other strains of wild yeast. 
QESTION: do I make maltotetrose, buy it, how can I get some to make a 
medium with? 
 
2. Actidione (cycloheximide) is an antibiotic that may be mixed with 
culture media. 
QESTION: where  can I get some of this? 
 
3. Lysine, an amino acid, can be used only by certain stains of wild 
yeast. In an accompanying chart it is referred to LYS medium. 
QUESTION: again if I use this method can you point me to a source? 
 
Which of these methods should I try, or must I try them all. The 
article list several methods to cover the spectrum of wild yeasts. 

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From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 00:10:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Propane/CO2 bottles 

>>>>> "John" == John Wilkinson <jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com> writes: 
 
 
    John> I would recommend weighing before filling and 
    John> writing that weight on the tank with a permanent marker. 
    John> Then you can tell when it approaches empty. 
 
Actually, every tank I've seen has the *tare weight* (i.e., empty 
weight) marked on it somewhere.  My CO2 cylinder has it stamped into 
the metal.  (11.7 lbs, as I recall, for a 5lb CO2 tank.) 
 
=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu) 

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From: truckdrivinneighborsdownstairs at juno.com (CLIFFORD L DAVIS)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 01:13:33 EDT
Subject: VIEWMASTER

Hi, 
I am Cliff Davis. 
I am on a mission...... 
a mission to get the folks at TYCO to turn the ViewMaster 3-d visual 
device back into the hands of adults again. This is who it was designed 
for in the 40's!!!!!!!! 
Up until the 80's!!!!! 
The viewmaster is not a toy! it is in fact a 3-dimensional projector. 
It allows the viwer to see images in,in your face 3 dimensional beauty. 
Please help me in this mission......... 
Tell TYCO you want them to change the color of viewmaster back to it's 
original color...tan,or at least something other than lollypop red. 
Then tell TYCO that you want reels made for adults to enjoy!!!! 
(Beatles images,nudes,Sports Illustrated Swimsuit 
models,birds,flowers,microscopic closeups,photos from history,cars,NUDES, 
anything that would interest adults. 
Choose an address,write or call! 
 
1 Tyco Toys Inc., Bruce Maguire, 609/840-1384 
2 Tyco Toys...1990 S Bundy Dr...Los Angeles, CA 90025-5240 
  Phone: (310)826-8633 
3 Tyco Toys...2211 Corinth Ave...Los Angeles, CA 90064-1650 
  Phone: (310)479-8899 
4 Tyco Industries...3420 Norman Berry Dr...Hapeville, GA 30354-1324 
  Phone: (404)763-0053 
5 Tyco Industries...2050 N Stemmons Fwy...Dallas, TX 75258-9997 
  Phone: (214)749-0140 
6 Tyco Industries Inc...6000 Midlantic Dr...Mount Laurel, NJ 08054-1516 
  Phone: (609)234-7400 
 
 
Folks,this is the only way to save this American Institution we all grew 
up with,because kids have moved on to high ticket items like video 
games,etc,they are uninterested in the ViewMaster. Some stores aren't 
even carrying it anymore. Wal-Mart ,Ames,etc. 
So if you grew up with it,and don't want to see it fade away......do 
something about it. 
And if you don't remember the thrill of full 3-dimensional vision......go 
look through a viewmaster. 
 
- ------------------------------ 

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From: dbrigham at nsf.gov
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 07:39:08 EST
Subject: How Low Can You Go?

Greetings.  A few minor questions and a whole-hearted thank you to all who 
contribute to the Digest. 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
        Last evening I bottled my first attempt at a Belgian Dubbel style 
ale, using Papzian's recipe from "New Complete Joy..." pretty much as 
written: 
 
        6 lbs. Light DME (M&F) 
        2 lbs. Light Honey 
        1 lb. 40 L Crystal Malt 
        1 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellets (60 min. boil) 
        .5 oz. Kent Golldings Pellets (15 min. flavor) 
        .5 oz. Kent Goldings Pellets (2 min. aroma) 
        1 tsp. Irish Moss at 15 min. 
        Wyeast Belgian Ale 1214 (no starter) 
 
A quick run down of the procedures - brought 3 gallons Brita filtered water 
to 150 degrees F, steeped Crystal Malt divided in two cheese-cloth bags with 
little or no agitation for 30 minutes, pulled out bags and squeezed a little. 
With water at 150 degrees added 6 lbs. DME and 1 lb. Honey, brought to a boil 
then added first hops.  Slight boil-over in about 5 minutes (I was busy 
watching our two-year old (Sarah)) - followed remainder of schedule, but 
added second 1 lb. of Honey at 30 minutes.  Cooled wort with immersion 
chiller, added it to cold filtered water in my 7 gallon plastic primary by 
draining it through a large kitchen strainer.  Topped off to 5 gallons and 
added swelled pack of Wyeast 1214.  Primary fermet was at 65-70 degrees and 
took about 24 hours to start, after 5 days seemed very quiet so I racked to 
a 5 gallon carboy - left it there (same temps) for 7 days with just about 
no activity then bottled last night.  Adjusted gravity readings were SG=1060 
and FG=1008. 
 
My questions are regarding the final gravity and alcohol 'smell' and flavor 
at bottling.  I was expecting (from Charlie) the FG to be between 1013 and 
1025, not as low as 1008 - and the beer was very fruity, estery and had a 
very obvious alcohol flavor and aroma.  It was close to Dubbels I have had 
before, but I think it lacked some body (low FG?) and the alcohol was much 
more obvious.  Should it have attenuated (right term?) this much?  Will the 
alcohol smell/flavor mellow out some? 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Thanx! 
 
Dana Brigham 
Sarah's Daddy's Brew 
dbrigham at nsf.gov 
 

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From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:41:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: mashing mistakes

brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman) Wrote: 
 
>yeast.  I dumped the batch about a week later.  I called the shop where I 
>ordered the stuff to complain that the yeast hadn't worked.  This time I 
>talked to a different person who immediately pointed out to me that 1# of 
>wheat malt doesn't contain enough enzymes to convert the whole mash.  I 
>*thought* victory malt had enzymes...  Moral of the story:  new mashers 
>should run their recipes by more experienced mashers before brew day! 
 
Hey, don't beat the guy up, how is he supposed to know you were ordering 
a recipe and not just supplies?  It's possible that someone found a real 
good deal on 200 lbs of 2-row and needed your list to brew with over the 
next few months. 
 
_________________________________________________________________________ 
Arnold J. Neitzke                         Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com 
Home: Brighton, Mi 
Work: Auburn Hills, Mi 

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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 06 Sep 96 08:55:17 EDT
Subject: Bubbly mead, Venting, Baking malt extract

Brewsters: 
 
John Varady asks if we see any problems with him adding sugar to his bottles of
mead to make them bubbly. 
 
Of course you'll use beer or champagne bottles that can withstand the pressure.
 
The only problem I see is that the yeast may not start in a wine that is high 
in
alcohol and depleted of nutrients like a mead usually is. I suggest you try to 
start the yeast in some of the sweetened mead and if you are successful, use 
this "starter" ,krausen - style, to put into your bottles of sweetened mead. 
That way you won't end up with a cloudy sweet mead instead of bubbly. 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Bruce Herron saw some vinyl siding vents and is wondering if it is OK to use as
a false bottom, I guess. It is probably not food grade and is probably PVC.  I 
wouldn't use it.  PVC is not approved for hot water use, but that is probably 
for mechanical reasons. 
 
I made a Zapap once and used my electric soldering gun (outside!) to melt holes
through the polyethylene bucket, since drilling is a PITA.  Didn't take very 
long and the hole edges were smooth and easy to clean. Maybe wrap a heavy wire 
around the end of the soldering gun of the approximate diameter of hole you 
desire. 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Jorge Blasig is trying to find local ( Uruguay) ingredients to make brew with. 
 
Jorge, the malt extract you found for baking may not be perfect, but I know 
that
during Prohibition and into the 70's here in the US, lots of home brewed beer 
was made from Blue Ribbon Malt Extract which was touted as being for use in 
baking. I never could figure out what home baker would use hopped malt extract 
in 3 lb cans with selections of Light, Pale Dry and Extra Pale Dry. If you sent
in for information from an address on the can label you would get a letter in 
the mail from Oregon with no return address saying don't do this or you will 
make beer. I know, I got one.  I suggest you try to make beer with the malt 
extract.  Also contact the supplier for more information, other products etc. 
He may be a maltster.. 
 
I would think you could approach a maltster and see if he will give or sell you
a few bags of malt "for developmental purposes"  That worked for me many years 
ago when malts were not available and HB shops didn't exist yet. No one was 
fooled of course, just nice guys.  They gave me over 200 pounds of  various 
malts. Lager, caramel,chocolate and patent black. 
 
As far as hops go, I would think you could use a similar scheme. Or you could 
try other bittering herbs that are locally available.  Maybe make some fruit 
flavored beers in the meantime and forget the hops until you can get them. 
 
Have you tried to order from HB shops in the US? I suggest that is the best way
if it is allowed to be shipped in.  If you are interested, let me know via 
private e-mail and I will send you the info. 
- -------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
Dave Burley 
Kinnelon, NJ 07405 
.. 
 

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From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:09:27 -0500
Subject: Hardness

Bob Snyder asked about hardness. Total hardness is the sum of the calcium 
and magnesium ion concentrations nearly always expressed (in this country) 
as ppm CaCO3. Dividing by 50 gives the number of milliequivalents per litre 
calcium plus magnesium. Thus the total hardness minus the calcium hardness 
is the magnesium hardness. Dividing the calcium hardness by 50 (the 
equivalent weight of Calcium) gives the mg/l (ppm) calcium in the solution 
and dividing the magnesium hardness by 12.15 gives the mg/l for magnesium. 
Other ions (like iron) contribute to "hardness" but are, by convention, not 
included in the hardness specification. 
 
Alkalinity, on the other hand, is indicative of the amount of carbonate in 
the water. It is also nearly always expressed as ppm CaCO3 and the value 
divided by 50 is the number of milliequivalents of acid required to acidify 
a 1 litre sample of the water to pH 4.3.  Normally the alkalinity divided 
by 61 gives the approximate amount of bicarbonate (in mg/l) in the sample 
but small adjustments need to be made if the sample pH is either unusually 
high or low. 
 
If the alkalinity is greater than the total hardness then the calcium and 
magnesoum limit the amount of carbonate which can precipitate and the total 
hardness is the temporary hardness. The alkalinity minus the total hardness 
is the permanent hardness i.e. excess bicarbonate paired with sodium and 
potassium. If the alkalinity is less than the total hardness then it is the 
bicarbonate which limits the amount of calcium and magnesium carbonate 
which can form and the alkalinity is the temporary hardness. In this case 
the total hardness minus the alkalinity represents excess calcium/magnesium 
paired with chloride or sulfate and is the permanent hardness. 
 
A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore! 
ajdel at interramp.com 
 
 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:34:00 -0700
Subject: RE: Lager fermentation temp/ Marzen recipe

     Hello all, 
 
     Dr. Michael Brown writes about his lager fermentation being slow at 
     45F and that he usually ferments lagers at higher temps (50-60F, I 
     think). 
 
     He didn't post what yeast strain he's using, but for most 45F is fine. 
     60F is too warm for most strains and they will not retain clean lager 
     characteristics, although they will ferment faster. 
 
     Lager fermentations are normally slower, so no, you're not "shafting" 
     yourself. 
 
     I've noticed that many beginner brewers refer to making lagers at high 
     temperatures (>60F).  You cannot do this.  Perhaps there is a lager 
     strain that will ferment cleanly at these temps, but I don't know it 
     (keep in mind, I don't know them all).  Lagers are fermented cool 
     (~45F) and "lagered" (stored) at near freezing temperatures. 
 
     If you ferment at higher temps you may make decent beer, but it is not 
     lager. 
     ---------------------------- 
     John Varady asks for opinions about his Marzen recipe.  In my opinion, 
     which I feel has some value in this area, I think that he will miss 
     the style with that recipe.  His OG (original gravity) is too low at 
     1.047 (even modern Bavarian examples are higher than this, and 
     traditional examples are around 1.060).  His hop rate is too high, 
     especially for that OG.  You need MUCH more Munich malt to achieve the 
     proper toasted malt profile, and you should either eliminate the 
     crystal malt or use no more than 6% light crystal.  You want to avoid 
     caramel flavors in Marzen. 
 
     The use of American pale malt as a base is questionable.  I prefer to 
     use German Pilsner-quality malt.  You should use equal amounts of 
     quality 2-row Munich malt and Pils malt, or even mostly Munich malt, 
     especially if using an infusion mash schedule. 
 
     As for hopping, I've achieved excellent balance using 3 AAU (Alpha 
     acid units) of Noble hop PELLETS for 40 min., and a second 2 AAU 
     addition for 15 min.  This applies to a wort with an OG of 1.062 and a 
     volume of 5.5 gallons. 
 
     This may seem low to hop-heads, but keep in mind that this is a 
     malt-driven style.  The hops are there in only a supporting role. 
 
     Be sure to make up a large yeast starter and ferment at appropriate 
     temperatures (45-50F).  It takes longer, but is worth it! 
 
     Have Fun! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:31:58 -0700
Subject: Lambic production

     Hello again! 
 
     In the August 1996 issue of "Scientific American" there is an article 
     about lambic beers.  In this article there is a photograph of hot wort 
     being pumped into the coolship, and next to it a picture of a fan 
     turning over the wort. 
 
     It appears that the caption is wrong because it refers to each picture 
     as if it were the other, which leads me to distrust the entire 
     caption. 
 
     My first question is: that sure looks like a LOT of HSA (hot side 
     aeration) happening in the picture of the hot wort being pumped to the 
     cool ship.  What's the deal? 
 
     Second, the caption says, "Fans circulate the air while the liquid's 
     temperature drops to about 15 degrees Celsius."  The confusing thing 
     is that the liquid in the picture is VERY frothy.  It looks like 
     fermentation is active!  Does anybody know if it's frothy because of 
     aeration, or is fermentation already that active in the coolship? 
 
     Just curious. 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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From: YYQI%SBTV04 at btmv06.god.bel.alcatel.be
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:14:00 +0100 (MET)
Subject: NEED INFO ABOUT YOU


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From: "Taber, Bruce" <BRUCE.TABER at nrc.ca>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 09:41:00 EDT
Subject: screw-off caps

 
     No, I'm not cursing in the subject line.  Kevin Buttrum asked about a 
capper for screw-off caps.  For those who aren't aware of it, any capper 
that works with regular crown caps (pry-off) will work with screw-off caps. 
 Just make sure you buy the screw-off type of cap and put it on a screw-off 
type of bottle (seems odvious advice to me but you'd be surprised).  The 
only problem with screw-off caps is that they sometimes don't seal as well 
and you loose your carbonation.  I've used them a couple of time with no 
problems.  Also, screw-off caps can be used on regular bottles if you run 
short of regular caps. 
     BTW, I loved Eric Fouch's acronym definitions.  Keep the humor coming. 
 It's a helleva lot more interesting then all the bitching that been posted 
lately. 
 
Bruce Taber 
Almonte, Ont. (near Ottawa) 
taber at irc.lan.nrc.ca 

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From: Kit Anderson <kit at maine.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:21:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Acronyms

 
>NOKOMAREE - Obscure referance to the Aztec god of flatuence and 
>gorilla dust. 
 
I just found out that NOKOMAREE is the Good Times virus ;-) 
 
- -- 
 
Kit  Anderson 
<kit at maine.com> 
Bath, Maine 
The Maine Beer Page  http://www.maine.com/brew 

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From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at juno.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:57:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Extraction rate

Just to add another anecdotal data point to this discussion. 
 
My first all-grain beer had 8 lbs. of pale ale malt and wheat malt, and 
some small amount of crystal.  I got 5 gallons of 1.025 beer (which, 
after all was said and done, was really good). 
 
The only change I made was in my sparging technique.  I now get 33 
pts/lb/gallon on average, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little 
less, depending on malt it seems. 
 
The first time I had lots of channeling and lots of sweet grain left in 
the lauter tun.  I am now much more careful about my sparging. 
 
John DeCarlo, jdecarlo at juno.com 

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From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at juno.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:09:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Secondary concerns and Blow-Off

smurman at best.com writes: 
>The main problem I have is removing the bitter head from the kreusen, 
>which would normally get blown off in a carboy primary. 
 
<rant mode on> 
I feel that the benefits of blow-off are exaggerated.  The only case 
where I personally feel it is warranted is when you are fermenting 5 
gallons of wort in a 5 gallon carboy (or have a violent-enough 
fermentation to overflow your fermenter, no matter what the sizes 
involved).  I have tried this method and felt that the beer was 
inferior, presumably because blow-off has nasty things and good things 
in it, and you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. 
 
I invested in bigger 7 gallon carboys for the primary and have been very 
happy with the results. 
<rant mode off> 

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From: paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 12:14:26 edt
Subject: Efficiency and mashing out w/ boiling water

HBDers, 
This may not mean anything, but I could SWEAR that I get +2 more points when I 
dump a couple gallons of boiling water into my 10 gallon Gott for mashout, stir
it up and wait 15 mins. 
 
 This is compared to step infusing to 170 in a keg and mashing out in the Gott 
with 180 sparge water. 
 
Is there somthin' to this and has anyone else experienced this? 
 
Mike Spinelli in Cherry Hill NJ 
 
 

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From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at ecy.wa.gov>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 09:16:00 PDT
Subject: Channelling

 
Al and Charlie (and others) have been posting about channelling. 
Al K wrote, 
AK>I believe that the HBD came to an concensus that knifing the grain bed a 
>few times during the *laeuter* increased channelling.  Channelling is 
>where the sparge water establishes a sort of "river" in the grain bed and 
>continues to flow down that path of least resistance forgoing the 
>extraction of sugars from surrounding grain.  Poking a knife or skewer 
>into the grain bed would only *create* a path, not prevent its creation. 
 
 Charlie responds: 
" Iwasn't part of this consensus. Cutting any depth is not going to create 
channeling *if the flow is stopped*. 
 
I wasn't either, and Charlie is right in my opinion.  No Flow, no 
channelling. 
 
Al K>If channelling is suspected then stirring the top 1/2 or 2/3 of the bed 
 
>would help. 
 
Charlie responds: 
"I wouldn't touch a *flowing* bed to counteract channelling. I *would* cut 
the top 1/4 of the flowing bed to aleviate sticking of the sparge because 
the semi-impervious top dough is there. If you want to correct channeling, 
stop the flow. However in my experiments, I have trouble *inducing* 
channeling in small lauters. I am beginning to suspect it is more a large 
scale problem that we HBers are blaming for other problems." 
 
Charlie is again absolutely correct.  The top dough has a much lower 
permeability than the grain itself and thus ultimately controls the speed of 
the sparge.  Knifing, raking, whatever, provides higher permeability 
pathways through that  stuff (paths of least resistance) so it will work. 
  Stopping the flow and resaturating the system by contributing sparge water 
and then waiting a bit will reestablish the  buoyancy of the grain in the 
lauter. 
Charlies experimental experience illuminates theoretical flow 
considerations.  Channelling in the small volumes of UNDISTURBED grain 
common in homebrew volumes is probably not an issue.  If you knife it, 
though, it will become one.  Of more concern is the edge effect, given our 
small containers. 
 
Al K>I've just thought of a test to see if you are experiencing channelling. 
 
Al K>Half way through the laeuter, divert the runnings to a quart jar. 
 After 
Al K>you've got it half full, divert to a second quart jar and immediately 
Al K>stir the top half of the mash.  Measure the SG of the runnings.  If the 
 
Al K>OG in jar 2 is significantly higher than that in jar 1, you have 
 Al K>channelling problems.  I'm going to try this on my next batch. 
 
I really don't know if this is going to tell you about extraction, or about 
flow.  Al, how about taking an exact volume when you do this, and timing it, 
assuming open your valve the same each time.  Significantly different time 
per unit volume will tell you about channelling, even if the OG's are not 
different.  I think channelling is first a flow issue, which affects 
extraction.  If you try time per unit volume, you directly measure the 
channelling effect.  The gravity issue is a reflection of this, as "faster 
flow extracts less stuff". 
 
I'll try timing and volumes and gravity next time, too. 
 
Guy Gregory 
GuyG4 at aol.com 
Lighning Ck. Home Brewery...Anybody got a minute for a pint? 
 

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From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at juno.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:44:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Help with WA State Laws

rownby at televar.com (Ray Ownby)writes: 
>Went to get a liquor permit for my wedding reception and was told that 
>it was illegal to serve homebrew at such a function. 
 
I don't have specifics on WA, but in VA the matter was investigated a 
couple of years ago.  The common *interpretation* of the state 
laws/regulations was that it was legal to brew beer in your home, but 
not to transport it anywhere or serve it to anyone.  Various homebrew 
clubs got a campaign together, found sympathetic legislators, and got 
the law to allow small amounts of homebrew to be given away, transported 
to another location, etc.  So now you can bring (I think) 5 gallons of 
homebrew to another location legally. 
 
I think that many regulators would likely make the same interpretation 
in other states.  After all, the law simply allows you to make it. 
Unless there is a specific ruling or law giving you the right to 
transport it, it may well be considered illegal. 
 
John DeCarlo, Arlington, VA, jdecarlo at juno.com 

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From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at juno.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:51:54 -0400
Subject: Re: priming/under carbonation

AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com writes: 
>I realize that some ale's are typically not as strongly carbonated as 
>others, but I think that mine are still a little weak.  As far as I 
>can read, my options are: 
 
Actually, as several people have pointed out (particularly Dave in 
Sydney, if memory serves), volume measurement of sugar is much more 
subject to variation than weight. 
 
So, another option you left out is to weigh the dextrose.  You may find 
out that the proper weight measures out to a cup for you rather than 3/4 
because of some unknown process that puts more air in your measuring cup 
(larger crystals, etc.). 
 
John DeCarlo, Arlington, VA, jdecarlo at juno.com 

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From: snsi at win.bright.net (Jeff Smith)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:00:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Under Carbonation

John Penn wrote: 
> I recently tried carbonating with 1 cup of honey and that worked quite 
well >and quickly. 
 
 
Well I've been there done that.  Back in May I primed a porter with 1 cup of 
honey and ended with 5 total exploded and a bunch of over carbonated 
bottles.  I ended up posting the following question: 
 
> So is 1 cup honey to much? 
 
Russell Mast replied: 
>Way too much.  1 cup of honey is about 3/4 lb, maybe more, whereas 
3/4 c. corn sugar is more like 1/4 lb or less. 
 
And Dick Dunn replied: 
>Yes.  Here's a quick sketch of figuring it:  your standard 3/4 cup of sugar 
>is around 4+ oz by wt.  A cup of honey is about 12 oz wt.  80%+ of the 
>content of honey is sugar, and essentially all of it is readily fermentable. 
>So a cup of honey has about 10 oz wt of fermentable sugar, or almost 2.5 
>times your usual prime. 
 
All I can add is I hope your beer goes better and over carbonation is far 
worse than under.  BTW (now that every one knows what it means 4 times over) 
John, weighing your corn sugar and being patient are both on the right track. 
 
On this carbonation thread is it possible that beers with higher final 
gravities  (1.016 to 1.022) can hold less dissolved CO2 than lower FG (1.004 
to 1.008)? 
 
 
Bottling This Weekend 
 
 
 
Jeff Smith | '71 HD Sprint 350SX, Temp '77 GS 400 X 
snsi at win.bright.net | Barnes, WI 
 

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From: Edward J. Steinkamp <ejs0742 at dop.fse.ca.boeing.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:09:01 PDT
Subject: Re: blow-off tubes

One thing nobody has mentioned is that a 5/16 inch blow off tube 
can get clogged.  A friend of mine used 5/16 blow off tubes 
until a batch of stout clogged the tube and caused the carboy to 
break. 5 gallons of stout on the carpet convinced me to use 1 1/4 
inch  blow off tubes.  They are easily cleaned with a rag and a wire, 
just like cleaning the barrel of a gun. 

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From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at juno.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:15:12 -0400
Subject: Head vs. carbonation

As a judge who thinks about this issue, my theory is that the state of 
the head is almost completely orthogonal to the carbonation or 
conditioning of the beer. 
 
Particularly for beers where you expect more carbonation, like German 
Weizens, I often see one with an excellent head that lasts and lasts, 
but is under-conditioned (which I measure by the effect of the CO2 
bubbles on the tongue).  I also see beers that are over-conditioned but 
with very poor head formation and retention. 
 
Then you can get into the issues of large bubbles (bad) vs. pin-point 
bubbles (good) in your beer.  And how rocky the head is.  Etc. 
 
So, if you think your carbonation is off and want advice, please say 
something about the head (formation, retention, etc.) and the 
conditioning (flat, low, medium, high-very tingly, whatever).  Then you 
can get more comprehensive advice that hopefully addresses your real 
problem. 
 
John DeCarlo, Arlington, VA, jdecarlo at juno.com 

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From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at juno.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:18:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Extraction Efficency Woes

Nice list.  I would also add one more item: 
 
Sample and taste the spent grains in the lauter tun.  If you find that 
it is tasteless in the middle, but sweet all around the edges, it means 
that you aren't effectively sparging the edges.  If it tastes the same 
everywhere, it leads you to investigate the crush/whatever.  I have 
helped many people diagnose efficiency problems this way. 
 
John DeCarlo, Arlington, VA, jdecarlo at juno.com 

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From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 12:31:00 -0500
Subject: HSA, Ocktoberfest

I have not had the time to participate in HBD this year due to other 
commitments. Recently I started getting e-mail asking about my 
reactions to posts by De Piro, Frane, and others to HBD.  Given 
the nature of their posts, I decided to bring myself up to date 
and respond. 
 
First, it was not I but rather Dr. Hashimoto in Japan who first 
wrote about the effects of HSA. Anyone who has read my book or 
the review article I wrote for Zymurgy will be well aware of this 
point. I first came in contact with Hashimoto's theory in the early 
1980's. Like any brewer confronted with a new point of view, I took 
his ideas home with me and did test brews to see how they played out 
in my own system. The chapter in my book on redox reactions was 
an attempt on my part to explain what I observed in terms of 
established biochemical mechanisms. The Zymury article was designed 
as a nontechnical survey of this material. I feel Frane's claim that 
I have been promoting hysteria is unfair. The only objectives I have 
ever had was to suggest there is some advantage to eliminating the 
stupid (i.e., preventable) forms of HSA, namely excess shear in the mash 
and turbulent hot wort transfer. 
 
In the late 1980s Dr. Narziss and others at Weihenstephan launched an 
in depth study of HSA. Out of this fray Dr. Narziss has emerged as 
the most articulate advocate for the "modern low oxygen brewhouse", to 
quote one of his favorite phrases. The hypersensitivity in commercial 
brewing to HSA directly results from the great influence Narziss and 
his colleagues have, and not because of anything George Fix might 
have said or written. I might also say that one reason that the folks 
in Munich have so much influence is that they have a long history of 
getting things like this right. 
 
Frane's post had two other issues which I find troubling. The first is 
the suggestion that HSA is relevant only for long term stability. It 
true that noneal and other staling compounds will ultimately arise 
from HSA, however my main concern has always been the intermediate 
products. These tend to encourage tones which I loosely (and imprecisely) 
call "grain-like astringency". These effects will ultimately age out, but 
in a commercial context the ball game is over before that happens. 
 
The other point which I take issue is the suggestion that HSA is relevant 
only for lighter beers. In fact, the case is exactly the opposite. The 
players in HSA come almost exclusively from malt, and the more there 
is the more important this issue becomes. It is not surprising that 
Germans with their all malt brews are more sensitive to this issue than 
the folks making Bud. I suspect producers of bottled water are not 
terribly concerned either. 
 
There is currently some really top flight Munich and Vienna malts 
available that are produced from premium low protein 2-row barley. 
The Durst malts come immediately to mind, but there are others as well. 
Given malt like this I am in absolute agreement that they can be 
used to advantage in a variety of beers including Oktoberfests. When 
Laurie and I wrote our book the situation was dramatically different. 
At that time the only available options (from either Europe or the 
US) came from inferior 6-row barley. The combination of a high 
Kiln temperature with a big husked barley gives rise a number 
of flavor tones which to my palate are incredibly crude. There is 
also a negative interaction with these compounds and hop constituents, 
and the only reasonable fest beers I have tasted using these malts 
have had virtually no hop flavor at all. Thus If I have access to a 
quality Munich or Vienna malt I would use it without hesitation as 
a partial replacement of the base malt. If only garbage malt is 
available I will stick with the old recipes. 
 
Cheers. 
 
George Fix 
 
 

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