---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  [none] ((John (The Coyote) Wyllie))
  Dave Mercer's bad beer from high Temperature (TMCASTLE at am.pnu.com)
  1968 Thomas Hardy Ale (TMCASTLE at am.pnu.com)
  Re: Lager and pils fermenting temps (Don Trotter)
  Re: Hangovers/Bees (RUSt1d?)
  20lb co2 Cylinder (Scott Abene)
  Re: Calculating CO2 saturation levels (Alex Santic)
  Mashout Temp? ((Craig Wynn))
  Re: forced carbonation ("Dennis Marshall")
  Scouring SS Kegs; Spam control (Michael Gerholdt)
  RE:  Caramalizing wort / Hangovers  ((George De Piro))
  RIMS Controller Alternatives (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  Czech Pils schedule ("John M. Posing")
  chiming in on channeling (Gregory King)
  Colonial Brewing Response Summary (Tjpenn at aol.com)
  Dual phase temp. controller ("John M. Posing")
  Burton Ales  ("Gregg Dolbec")
  SPAMMING on HBD (Robert_Felberg_at_ASTBMOUND4 at ccmailsmtp.ast.com)
  Re: 1056  or  fruit (Don Trotter)
  small bottles (Charles Epp)
  Typo/spamming/flour crush/ (John Wilkinson)
  Ball Valves/Cask conditioned ale (Terry)
  Re: Barley Wine Conditioning (MaltyDog at aol.com)
  Wa State law update ((Ray Ownby))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ccoyote at sunrem.com (John (The Coyote) Wyllie)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:31:33 -0600
Subject: [none]

David asks about volume under his mash screen: 
 
>Assume that I'm sparging until I hit a certain gravity 
>rather than a certain collected volume. Does it really matter whether there is
>one gallon or one quart beneath the grain? 
 
I don't use this kind of system, so from and empirical point of view- ignore 
me.
But from an analytical point of view, heres 2c to consider: 
 
A couple issues to consider:  You've got ... 
 
     Concentration   = amount of stuff (gms) per volume of liquid (ml)=g/ml 
     Total Volume    = well, the total volume.  All the leftover liquid (Tml) 
     Total stuff     = like above, substitute stuff for liquid. (Tgm) 
 
Now if you are sparging to a final concentration (read as specific gravity 
which by some fancy complex equations could be converted to g/ml.  I will 
leave such a calculation for someones thesis project! :) you will have a 
specific amount of stuff left behind (useful sugars) when you terminate 
your sparge (multiply the Tml x g/ml and you get Tg since ml will cancel). 
So we arrive at the TOTAL GRAMS of STUFF left behind when you have 
completed your sparge. 
 
There is a benefit to be observed in minimizing that Tg left behind. (like 
duh?)
So if you are counting points for ego sake, yeah, get it down.  If your are 
economically challenged and speeze every drop out of every last penny- then 
maybe you should do like the belgians and press your grain, and hops.  But 
if you are not..../worried/....but such concerns then toss in an extra $1 
worth of grain and call it good. 
 
On a LARGE scale this would be an issue.  On a homebrewers scale its 
probably not something to lose sleep over.  But the take home lesson: there 
is /some/ advantage to keeping the space under your screen to a reasonable 
minimum. 
        (did I backpeddle that statement enough?  I think so!) 
 
- --------------------------------------------------------------- 
///  John-    The Cosmic Coyote   -Wyllie\\\ ccoyote at sunrem.com 
'As long as he's got 8 fingers and toes, he's ok by me!' H.J.S. 
- --------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 

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From: TMCASTLE at am.pnu.com
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:35:40 -0400
Subject: Dave Mercer's bad beer from high Temperature

 
  Hey, 
 
  Dave Mercer wrote about his bout with a high temp fermentation of 
  Wyeast 1056 giving a "bad alcohol" and funky taste after 2 weeks in 
  the bottle and wondered if this would heal with time. 
 
  I had a similar result with Wyeast American Ale II on an American 
  Ale although I didn't ferment quite so warm.  I thought I had made 
  Sherry or something else I'm not terribly fond of.  Anyways, it sat 
  in my basement at 60 degrees for about 3 months and the resulting 
  beer was quite nice, no phenolics, no vodka bite. 
 
  So, patience, my son.  In the words of Cat Stevens (or Harry 
  Chapin?): 
 
  "It's not time to make a change, just relax and take it easy. 
  You're still young.  That's your fault. 
  There's so much you have to do." 
 
  Or to wax philisophically: 
 
  "Do or not do.  Your chances of screwing up are about the same." 
 
  Tom Castle from Kalamazoo, MI 
  The Zen of Homebrew 
  http://www.netcom.com/~tmcastle 

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From: TMCASTLE at am.pnu.com
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:08:35 -0400
Subject: 1968 Thomas Hardy Ale

 
  Kevin Kutskill writes about his fortuitous encounter that allowed 
  him to purchase 2 bottles of 1968 Thomas Hardy Ale for $5 each.  He 
  asks what the value of the bottles presently are.  To my 
  recollection, they are worth about $5 each (ballpark).  You know, a 
  willing buyer and anxious seller economic theory and all that. 
 
  Don't look at them as an investment. (When my wife tells me that her 
  jewelry is a good investment, I remind her that you have to be 
  willing to sell the investment to make it valuable).  Look at your 
  new purchase as your little slice of History.  (I have a Patty 
  Hearst FBI wanted poster and a 1957 Playboy calendar I wouldn't part 
  with for gold.) 
 
  Sorry for the waste of bandwidth. 
 
  Tom Castle from the Big Kazoo 
  http://www.netcom.com/~tmcastle 

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From: Don Trotter <dtrotter at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:23:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Lager and pils fermenting temps

 
Braam Greyling writes about lagering at 46.5 - 53.6 degrees. 
 
This temperature should be fine for the beginning stage f fermentation, 
however, colder temperatures are needed for successive stages, and 
maturation  Ideally, you would like to be able to take the temperature 
down into the lower 30s for maturation, and will need to step the 
temperature down from the lower 50s, where you will start.  A 
comprehensive guide to lagers is written by Greg Noonan.  Check it 
out. 
 
don 

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From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:33:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hangovers/Bees

>Both are attracted to sugar. In fact the  at #%&* at  yellow jackets rob bee hives. 
 
Those bastards! 
 
 
************************** 
** rust1d at li.com        ** 
** John Nicholas Varady ** <-- Now Engaged. 
** Eve Courtney Hoyt    ** 
************************** 
http://www.netaxs.com/people/vectorsys/index.html 
 

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From: Scott Abene <sabene at fcg.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:29:58 -0600
Subject: 20lb co2 Cylinder

>Another question. 
> 
>I have acquired a used 20lb co2 tank with dual gauges for the paltry 
>fee of $30.  The gauges work fine, so I believe I'm already ahead of 
>the game but what about the tank?  I believe it was originally used in 
>welding and I was wondering if there is a problem using it for kegging 
>beer.  I can't imagine any nasties living in CO2. 
> 
>thanx, 
> 
>Kevin 
 
Wow, What a great deal... As far as what I have been told by City Carbonics 
(A local Chicago gas supplier) there is no difference between so called 
industrial Co2 and beverage Co2. After I thought about it it made sense.. 
Co2 is Co2 and if you mess with the compound structure it would be another 
gas right? 
 
One of my tanks (a 10 pounder) was also a welding tank and I have had no 
problems with it.... 
 
*** Note: I recently posted a rambling rant about whatever where I said I 
sparge over 170 F. I neglected to state that my sparge water was over 170 F 
not my actual sparge. It is almost always between 168F and 172F if anybody 
wants me to explain my personal sparging technique further they can email 
me and I'll try to talk my way out of it. Sorry for the error, someday I 
will proofread but it's unlikely.*** 
 
- -Scott 
 
 
 

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From: Alex Santic <alex at salley.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:03:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Calculating CO2 saturation levels

In response to my question, Alan Edwards points out his formula which is = 
used for force-carbonating beer in kegs: 
 
P =3D -16.6999 - 0.0101059 T + 0.00116512 T^2=20 
    + 0.173354 T V + 4.24267 V - 0.0684226 V^2 
 
Good timing, as I was thinking about this formula last night and = 
wondering if it might apply. As a reminder, the problem is to figure out = 
how much CO2 is left dissolved in beer after fermentation, and for this = 
we need to calculate the saturation level at a given temperature and = 
elevation about sea level. 
 
The question then becomes, will this formula apply at normal atmospheric = 
pressure and how can it be modified to express V as a function of T = 
(fermentation temperature) and P (which will vary only according to = 
elevation). 
- -- 
Alex Santic - alex at salley.com 
Silicon Alley Connections, LLC 
527 Third Avenue #419 - NYC 10016 - 212-213-2666 - Fax 212-447-9107 
http://www.salley.com 
 
 

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From: cwynn at sawyer.ndak.net (Craig Wynn)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:08:08 GMT
Subject: Mashout Temp?

I'm looking for a discription of just what is "mashout temp" and is it 
an option  or a rule of thumb or a must do? 
 
Some recipes will mention it some make no mention of it. Those that do 
usually say mashout at 168F. Is this an absolute. 
 
What is the excepted proceedure for reaching mash out? I have a pump 
circulation and gas burner ring combo that I can use to heat for my 
mash/tun. Is there a time frame over which you raise the mash temp 
from coversion temp to mashout temp? 
 
craig 

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From: "Dennis Marshall" <marshall at ccom.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:23:05 +0000
Subject: Re: forced carbonation

There are a couple of differant ways you can go about force 
carbonating your batch of raspberry wheat beer (mmm sounds good). 
 
once you rack your beer into the keg you will have to remove all the 
air on top of the beer from the keg. to do this apply 5 lb of gas 
pressure to the keg, turn off the gas and vent using the relief 
valve. repeat this three times. 
 
now you are ready to carbonate, The recomended volumes for wheat beer 
is about 3.0 and  at 44F you should set your regulator for 20 psi. 
 
rock the keg back and forth until you don't here the Co2 flowing into 
the keg anymore which indicates that the pressures are equalized and 
no more Co2 is being dissovled into the beer. 
 
Shut off the gas and disconnect the line and store the keg in your 
fridge for a minimum of 3 days. 
 
Instead of rocking the keg you can also set the regulator in your 
case for 20 psi and leave on in your fridge for three weeks. 
 
Most of this information is found in "Brewing the Worlds Great Beers" 
by Dave Miller 
 
I hope this info helps 
 
Dennis 
****************************** 
Dennis B. Marshall 
The Brew House 
Advanced Homebrewing Equipment 
http://amsquare.com/brewhouse/ 
marshall at ccom.net 
****************************** 

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From: Michael Gerholdt <gerholdt at ait.fredonia.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 10:45:04 -0500
Subject: Scouring SS Kegs; Spam control

- -- [ From: Michael Gerholdt * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- 
 
Cuchulain Libby wrote the following: 
 
<< 
RE: Michael Gerholdt's suggestion to use green Scotch pads. IMHO, green 
scotch pads will scratch just about anything, Especially SS. That stuff has 
ruined many good knives of mine. Heck I used to use it to sand the enamel 
paint prior to putting a custom lacquer job on vans. Try using one of those 
plastic puff pads instead and NEVER use scotch pads on food grade pails, 
spoons, etc. 
>> 
 
I agree that some of the Scotch pads can scratch some SS. There is more than 
one grade of Scotch pad; some are specifically for removing paint, etc. 
 
Certainly a green Scotch pad will scratch food grade plastic. 
 
As far as "good knives" are concerned, I really have to wonder what sort of 
steel they were. I just scrubbed my 40 gallon SS jacketed kettles with a 
green Scotch pad and Cameo for copper/SS, and though I could tell that the 
oxidation layer was disturbed in places, the finish of the metal itself was 
not scratched at all. These kettles are, I believe, 316 SS (I'm no expert on 
SS). I'm sure that a scotch pad would have a visual impact on the finish of 
304 SS (the 15.5 gallon kegs). 
 
I also have some Scotch pads made for paint removal, and I'd never place one 
of them on my beloved kettles. 
 
To sum up: Not all SS is created equal; not all green Scotch pads are, 
either. And not all SS is equal to all Scotch pads! Yet, the appropriate 
green Scotch pad does a good job on SS, and is the recommended tool for the 
purpose. 
 
For normal maintenance, a plastic scrubby would probably be sufficient. For 
baked on grease, etc., it would require a significant addition of elbow 
grease, time and innovative explitives. 
 
- -------------- 
 
Despite Bill Griffin's revelation of the Page Down key as the solution to 
problems of spam and brewing, I think that a simple requirement of 
subscription for those who wish to post is a good idea. No one who is truly 
interested would be left out. Subscribe, and post away! 
 
This is a low threshold to cross; probably just high enough to keep out 99% 
of the spammers who don't even read HBD. Simple and effective. 
 
We'll still probably be subjected to boring lectures on green scotch pads, 
though. 
- -- 
 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:53:41 -0700
Subject: RE:  Caramalizing wort / Hangovers 

     Howdy! 
 
     In the last issue Steve asks about caramelizing wort.  I can't 
     remember where I read it (Zymurgy, maybe) but I have a clear memory of 
     somebody saying that Noonan boils a small quantity of the wort down to 
     a syrupy consistency to caramelize it when making Scotch ales.  Even 
     if my mind is fabricating this, it seems like a good idea. 
 
     By using only a small portion of the wort you can control the heat 
     better (on the stove, rather than a King Kooker) and thus avoid 
     scorching.  You can also control the amount of caramel flavor by 
     adding it back to the main wort to taste. 
     ---------------------- 
     Just my two cents on the hangover thread:  I think dehydration 
     contributes largely to hangovers (just an observation).  Isn't water 
     used in the metabolism of ethanol?  The diuretic effects of alcohol 
     are dehydrating, also. 
 
     I try to remember to drink at least 2 pints of water before bed, and I 
     think it helps (although sometimes I forget to do that after a 
     particularly fun night!).  The fact that I don't have to run to the 
     toilet in the middle of the night leads me to believe that my body 
     does indeed need the water.  (Sorry, is this getting to personal?) 
 
     I have an idea: if I clone myself, I could have each of us drink a 
     measured amount of alcohol.  Then one would go to bed with water, the 
     other without.  Then we'd compare our feelings the next day!  Hmmm, I 
     might need a third clone that doesn't drink anything, as a control... 
 
     Also, people should be aware of a study published last year which 
     suggested that acetaminophen, a.k.a. Tylenol, might cause liver damage 
     in some people, especially when taken with alcohol.  I don't remember 
     the details, or the scientific worth of the study, just something to 
     consider. 
 
     It's all fun and games until somebody loses a liver! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:37:53 -0400
Subject: RIMS Controller Alternatives

Steve Gray asks about RIMS controllers: 
 
<< 
I hope in the near future to evolve my current 10gal Gott mash/lauter = 
system into a pseudo RIMS system.  I've read the special issue Zymurgy = 
on gadgets, but I would rather not construct my own controller.  What = 
are good sources for controllers that can be used for these systems.  = 
They must exist. 
>> 
 
Perhaps the simplest RIMS controller is a regular light switch.  Major 
drawback is that it requires constant babysitting.  Turn it ON for boosts, 
leave it OFF for rests.  If you continue to recirculate during rests, you'll 
probably lose a lot heat; either shut off the pump during rests or give the 
element a quickie every so often to maintain a relatively even temperature. 
 Recirculate for several minutes after the last reat and before sparging to 
fully clear the wort.  Any RIMS pro's care to comment on this basic 
technique? 
 
The next step up is one that some RIMSer's have suggested in the past, which 
is to obtain a heavy-duty "light-dimmer" or "motor-speed" type controller. 
 For a typical RIMS (element at ~1125W not counting previously-discussed 
thermo-resistive effects) this should be rated at 2000W (~2.5 hp) or more 
just to be safe.  They can supposedly be had for $40 or so (?) but can be 
hard to find.  Again, turn full-ON for boosts; for rests, you'll have to 
manually find the setting that just maintains temperature while the wort 
circulates. 
 
Neither of the two foregoing approaches requires any special skills beyond 
good wiring practice to implement.  As far as "automatic" electronic 
controllers go, there is at least one commercial concern (BrewTech?  can't 
remember) selling controllers and other RIMS components; check recent Brewing 
Techniques and/or Zymurgy for ads. 
 
***** 
 
Ken Schwartz 
EL Paso, TX 
KennyEddy at aol.com 
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy 

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From: "John M. Posing" <jmposing at colint.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:00:17 -0500
Subject: Czech Pils schedule

Heres that schedule for the Czech pils decoction 
Authentic Czech Pilsner 3-Mash Schedule 
 
Hydration: Mix 1 qt/Lb cold water with grain, and stand 15 minutes. 
 
Strike: Add water at 150F/65C to raise temp. to 95F. Stand 15 minutes. 
 
As you remove each decoction, keep the rest of the mash well insulated 
to hold temp, 
 
First decoction: Remove 1/3 of mash (thick), and add hot water to raise 
to 126F/52C. Stand 15 minutes. 
Raise decoction to 144F/62C over 10 minutes. STIR to prevent scorching. 
Stand 15 minutes. 
Raise decoction to 167F/75C over 10 minutes. STIR. And stand 10. 
Raise to boiling over 15 minutes. STIR STIR STIR 
Boil 30 minutes. STIR ALOT! 
 
Protein rest: Return decoction to mash and stir well. Adjust to 
110F/43C. Stand 15. 
 
Second decoction: Remove 1/3 of mash (thick) and raise to 167F/75C over 
20 minutes. Remember that S word. 
Stand 10 minutes. 
Raise decoction to boiling over 15 minutes. S 
Boil for 30 minutes. S S S S 
 
Low mash: Return decoction to mash and stir well. Adjust to 144F/62C. 
and stand 10 minutes. 
 
Third decoction: Remove 1/3 of mash (thick) and raise to 167F/75C over 
20 minutes and stand 10 minutes. 
Raise to boiling over 10 minutes. 
Boil for 20 minutes. 
 
High mash: Return decoction to mash and stir and adjust to 152F/67C. 
Stand 30 minutes. 
 
Mash out. 
 
Yowzah!!! 
- -- 
John M. Posing 
jmposing at colint.com 

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From: Gregory King <GKING at ARSERRC.Gov>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:04:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: chiming in on channeling

John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at juno.com> wrote in reference to the channeling 
thread: 
 
> . . . if you simply sparge longer by closing the outlet, it 
>should help extraction, but it isn't clear that it would be enough or 
>even significant. 
> 
>The previous example of a straw or tube holding the water going through 
>the grain bed shows this issue.  Even if you take three days to let the 
>water go through the tube, it won't extract any more than if you let it 
>take three minutes. 
 
I think reducing the flow rate *is* significant in improving extraction 
efficiency. 
 
If there are channels in the grain bed, then for the case of relatively fast 
sparging rates there will be *preferential* flow through the channels, with 
a lot of sparge water bypassing the bulk of the grain bed.  This is what I 
think of as "channeling". 
 
For the case of relatively slow sparging rates there is still flow through 
the channels, but there is also productive flow through the bulk of the grain 
bed.  Thus, while there are still channels, there is little channeling. 
 
Greg King 
gking at arserrc.gov 
Philadelphia, PA 
 

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From: Tjpenn at aol.com
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:10:22 -0400
Subject: Colonial Brewing Response Summary

I received many emails expressing interest in my inquiry on Colonial beer 
recipes.  Thanks for the info, which is summarized here. It seems that there 
is a lot more interest than there is hard data, however.  Here are the 
references that I received: 
 
1) http://alpha.rollanet.org/library/ambeer This is a book about early 
brewing.  I read it, its good, but there arent any recipes. 
2) Brown, Sanborn Conner, 1913/1978??.  Wines & Beer of old New England, a 
how-to-do-it history.  I have not read it, but is was recommended twice. 
3) Hearts Homebrew in Orlando sells a Thomas Jefferson Pumpkin Ale-not sure 
of its legitimacy (pun intended) 
4) Dock Street Brewery in Philadelphia brews a strong Jefferson Ale-Ill try 
to snag the recipe 
5) Clive La Pensee, Montag Publications, 1990.  The Historical Companion to 
House Brewing.  This is sold through the Assoc. of Brewers catalog Beer 
Enthusiast-I have not read it, it was recommended. 
6) Cindy Renfrow provided some hot leads: 
a) her web site at http://www.aalcasoft.com/renfrow/ for mead and ginger beer 
recipes + links to other pages 
b) Indian King Tavern museum in Haddonfield, NJ.  Bill Mason, Innkeeper is 
researching historical beer methods. 
c) Penn Family Recipes, Cooking Recipes of Wm Penns wife, Gulielma, ca 
1664-1694.  Ed by Evelyn Benson, George Shumway, Publ PA, 1966-I saw this at 
Pennsbury Manor and will buy it-interesting spelling styles in those days! 
d) Ben Franklin on The Art of Eating, Amer. Philosophical Society, Princeton 
Univ Press, NJ 1958. 
 
I visited William Penns summer home (Pennsbury Manor) last weekend and saw 
his awesome brew house and hop garden.  The gift shop sells a book on 
beermaking at Pennsbury, written by the former brewmaster docent for the 
group.  I have not yet read it.  I will get a copy and report on any recipes. 
 And, this weekend, Sunday September 15, there is a brewing demonstration 
from 1-4 pm at Pennsbury Manor. 
 
I recognize that methods were quite variable then, especially malting and 
yeast management.  Ill pursue this further off-line by talking to some 
historians and local brewers.  Ill post any good info as it develops. 
 
Tom Penn 
Bordentown, NJ 
 

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From: "John M. Posing" <jmposing at colint.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:10:38 -0500
Subject: Dual phase temp. controller

I'm trying to find a temp. controller that will allow me to keep my beer 
fridge at a constant temp. summer or winter. The ones that I've seen 
just control the temp. on the rise, not the fall. My beer refrigerator 
is on a unheated screened in porch, and I'd like to be able to add a 
heater for this winter. Anyone have any ideas for a ready to go 
controller. I'm not very good with electronics to build my own. 
- -- 
John M. Posing 
jmposing at colint.com 

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From: "Gregg Dolbec" <gregg at UMS1.Lan.McGill.CA>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:22:23 EST5EDT
Subject: Burton Ales 

Fellow Brewers, 
 
Could someone  share a recipe for  the Burton Ale "Double Diamond" ? 
I'm still a kit brewer and haven't acquired equipment beyond the 
basics of the trade. Could you also simplify the brewing terminology, 
I've only been brewing my own for a few months and still unclear on 
the advanced techniques. 
 
Private e-mail would be much appreciated ! 
 
Funny how I use to love commercial beer and now I just tolerate it between 
batches of my own. 
 
Thanks 
Brewin' in Montreal 
Gregg at ums1.lan.mcgill.ca 

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From: Robert_Felberg_at_ASTBMOUND4 at ccmailsmtp.ast.com
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 12:41:18 PST
Subject: SPAMMING on HBD

     Hello All, 
 
     I'm brand new here (just subscribed a couple of weeks ago) and haven't 
     even gotten around to my first batch of brew yet. I'm still getting my 
     act and information together to make sure I don't mess it up too bad. 
     I really appreciate this forum and all of the informed folks 
     participating. For us newbies, it's more help than you could realize 
     (even though half of it's over my head, I'm catching on). 
 
     I do want to address the spamming issue though just because it bothers 
     me as well. Heck, I've only subscribed recently and have already had 
     to scroll past the stuff. I concur with what seems like most of you to 
     limit submissions to subscribers. This would not prevent people from 
     enjoying the information presented here at all (I read several issues 
     before subscribing). The only result would be that if someone wanted 
     to ask a question, or make a suggestion (which I'm sure I will in the 
     future), they would have to subscribe. I suppose there will always be 
     someone that will go ahead and subscribe for the sole purpose of 
     SPAMMING, but I don;t think that's likely. Addressing the issue of 
     folks who change email addresses, servers, etc.. How hard is it to 
     subscribe anyway? If you can send and receive an email, you're in. 
     Correct? 
 
     Well, there's my two cents' worth for now. Hopefully this will become 
     a non-issue one way or the other and my next submission will actually 
     deal with beer... 
 
     Thanks, 
 
     Rob 
 

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From: Don Trotter <dtrotter at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:51:01 -0500
Subject: Re: 1056  or  fruit

 
A friend asked me what kind of fruit I had done to realie the awsome 
attenuation I had with 1056. For those of you interested, here's what I did 
with the fruit. the idea is not mine, and those of you that posted instructions
in the past for making fruit beer, thanks a bunch.
 
don 
 
 
- ----- Begin Included Message ----- 
> 
> What kind of fruit? 
> 
 
fer sure dude, it wasn't the human kind!! 
 
I steeped 2# sweet mashed pitted cherries at 170F, and 2.4# mashed 
blueberries,  with pectin enzyme for 30 minutes, then chilled and 
strained through a mini zapap lauter tun and drained into the secondary 
(carboy).  This is the best way to do fruit, unless you actually put 
the berries in too, but that was too much trouble (carboy).  Also, 
there would have been the tendency to add protiens to haze the beer 
from the remaining fruit.  Remember, don't squeeze the fruit! ;-)  Just 
ladle the fruit into the zapap (colander) then pour the liquid on top 
and let it strain naturally. 
 
1. Add 1-2 qt water to pot. 
2. Add fruit. 
3. Mash well, before mixture gets above ~100F to avoid HSA. 
4. Bring to 160-170F. 
5. Add pectin. 
6. Steep for 30 min at 170F. 
7. Chill to 65F. 
8. Ladle fruit from pot to strainer. 
9. Pour in juice. 
10. Collect strained fruit juice (really sweet stuff). 
 
The juice was almost a syrup! 
 
- ----- End Included Message ----- 
 

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From: Charles Epp <chuckepp at ukans.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:14:05 -0500
Subject: small bottles

Hey folks, this is to report briefly the many helpful private emails I 
received in response to my question about sources for small cappable 
bottles.  They are:  Little Kings (but use a bench capper because 
hand-held cappers crack the necks); Perrier bottles; Coke, Dr. Pepper, 
and Sprite (try recycling centers -- they apparently see a lot of these 
things come through); and 7-oz Bud bottles.  Thanks again to everybody 
who replied. 
 
Chuck 

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From: John Wilkinson <jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:28:05 -0500
Subject: Typo/spamming/flour crush/

Comments on HBD #2181 
 
Shawn said: 
>It SEEMS like people are computers... 
Is this an Invasion of the Body Snatchers scenario or a typo? 
________________________________________________________________________________
 
If spamming offends you, don't read it.  More space is wasted discussing it, 
by far, than the spamming takes up.  This included. 
________________________________________________________________________________
 
If crushing malt to flour makes for better conversion rates, why not do so 
and add rice hulls for a filter bed?  Tannin from crushed husks a problem? 
Would this be a problem even in low ph mash or is it independent of that? 
________________________________________________________________________________
 
About Kevin's good deal on a CO2 tank.  As he said, if the gauges are good 
they could probably justify the $30. New gauges are about $49 from what I have 
seen.  Look for the most recent certification date stamped on the bottle. 
The certification is good for 5 years.  Re-certification costs $13 in Dallas. 
Of course, if the bottle is not in good condition it might not pass. 
By the way, what do welding shops use CO2 for?  I have not worried about the 
origins of my tanks and have not suffered for it, yet.  Small sample, of 
course. 
________________________________________________________________________________
 
A.J. deLange gave me another reason to hate Yellow Jackets. 
>In fact the  at #%&* at  yellow jackets rob bee hives. 
As if their aggressiveness and resultant stings were not enough. 
I haven't had any around my wort, yet. Just flies and hummingbirds. The wasps  
in my mash were black and dead. 
________________________________________________________________________________
 
As for Braam Greyling's question about brewing in a fridge which varies from 
46.5 to 53.6 degrees fahrenheit, I would think it would depend on the time 
at various temps. If it varied steadily it would seem to imply an average temp 
of ~50 degrees F.   If it varies fairly quickly (how quick is quick?) the beer 
temp should stay fairly steady at 50 F.  It would seem to me that the more 
slowly the temp varied, the more the beer temp would vary.  Is ~3.5 F either 
way too much?  Beats me. 
________________________________________________________________________________
 
John Wilkinson - Grapevine 

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From: Terry <brew at buffnet.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:41:27 GMT
Subject: Ball Valves/Cask conditioned ale

        Hi all, 
 
 I have a converted Sankey keg with a ball valve. The ball valve is made of 
brass as is the nipple, union and street elbow inside the keg. (I put my 
brewery together using the plans from How To Build A Small Brewery by Bill 
Owens). Is the lead content OK in brass or do I have to go to stainless? 
Also if I am make Pale Ales and naturally carbonating them in corny kegs, am 
I making cask conditioned ales?   TIA. 
Terry 
Alive and Brewing in Buffalo,NY 
Better living through fermentation. 
www.dnci.com/brewfellow 
 

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From: MaltyDog at aol.com
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:47:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Barley Wine Conditioning

Thanks to everyone who wrote me regarding the Orval. The brettanomyces  would 
certainly explain the low final gravity. As to the suggestion that an 
infection also happened when brewing the beer. . . well, it's certainly 
possible, but all I can say is, all infections should taste so delicious! 
 
There have been several comments about bottle conditioning barley wines in 
the recent digests, and I thought I would throw in my two cents on the 
subject: 
 
The fact that yeast has stopped fermenting during the primary is no reason to 
assume it's wornout; it may simply mean that all fermentable sugars in the 
beer at that time have been fermented. As long as priming sugar has been 
added, that will give the yeast, whether it's from the dregs of the primary 
or a fresh growth from a plate, more food to consume. I think the most 
important thing is that there must be a starter, and it must be at full 
krausen, in order to have carbonation in a reasonable time. I don't think a 
teaspoon or two of slurry will work very quickly unless it has first 
been roused to full krausen with some fresh wort. 
 
I agree with the comment that Chico Ale yeast is one of the better yeasts to 
use for bottle-conditioning, for a couple of reasons; it can definitely 
handle high gravity (remember, this is what they use to make Big Foot Barley 
Wine!), and it is also a fairly neutral yeast, flavor-wise, so it will not 
change the flavor profile you have carefully cultivated with your primary 
yeast. 
 
The last item is of importance, because different yeasts can drastically 
change the flavor of a beer, even at bottle conditioning; for that reason, I 
would never add champagne yeast. True, it can handle the gravity, but it was 
not cultivated for beer, it doesn't ferment the same way as beer yeasts, and 
it will not result in the same flavors. There are many beer  yeasts that can 
handle high gravity, and there is no reason not to stick with them. I'm not 
saying that it is impossible to get very good results using wine yeast for 
bottling-conditioning, but it does not seem worth the risk. 
 
As I said, the Chico strain works very well; I have used it to bottle 
condition both a barley wine and several Belgian-style ales (after using 
appropriate yeast in the primary), and was happy with the results. The Barley 
wine (which had a starting gravity of 1.096) was fully carbonated, with a 
very nice head, in about two weeks! It wasn't smooth enough to drink for a 
long while after that, but at least I didn't have to worry about the 
carbonation any more. I'm sure that there are other yeasts that 
will work well for Barley wines, and that someone can make other suggestions; 
I've only made one, but I've also had very good luck bottle-conditioning 
Belgian style Abbey ales of similar gravities with 
various yeasts. 
 
I hope this was useful. 
 
Bill Coleman 
MaltyDog at aol.com 

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From: rownby at televar.com (Ray Ownby)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:43:59 -0700
Subject: Wa State law update

Thanks to all who responded abouot homebrewing laws in Wa State.  It would 
seem the laws are a bit open to interpretation; but we got the OK from one 
of the head guys at the local office of the Liquor Control Board.  There 
WILL be homebrew galore at my wedding reception.  I'm sure I'm the first 
person who jumped on the computer and got busy typing after something pissed 
them off; at least I got lots of sympathetic email.  And the week after the 
reception, off to Germany for Oktoberfest.  Life is very good. 
 
- -Ray- 
 
rownby at televar.com 
 
Homepage: 
     http://www.televar.com/~rownby 
 
- -Ray Ownby- 
  Moses Lake, WA 
 

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