(formerly Volume 02 : Number 031)



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Contents:
  re:  Wyeast London ale yeasts
  Air filters
  Wyeast London Strains
  Wort & Air
  Re:Using kegs as sparage water containers
  cloudy beer
  Re: Maple syrup
  [No Subject Provided By Sender]
  Use and Storage of Bulk LME (Art McGregor)
  #1338 at low temp (Dave Whitman)
  RE: Brew Your Own magazine
  starter recipe
  Continuous Fermenters/O2
  Re: Homebrew Digest V2 #28
  Re: Homebrew Digest V2 #29
  Re: Homebrew Digest V2 #30
  Deschutes Beer  (George De Piro)
  RE: Boiing the wort the day after mashing (George De Piro)
  RE: Long mash time/trub removal/diacetyl in ESB (G. De Piro)
  Re: Air filter - The Final Answer (Eric Peters)
  re. long mash times and off odors
  What's the limit
  Decocting US malts/lager pitching
  Propane Cookers
  Special-B vs Belgian Aromatic
  Re: Long mash time causes "off" odors?
  Mead?


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:50:56 -0500
From: Phil Olson <bocefuss at concentric.net>
Subject: re:  Wyeast London ale yeasts

Chuck,

I finish a batch of ESB a few weeks ago and now (actually tonight) I'm
sampling my first bottle. Here's the recipe I used,

     12 lbs. British pale ale malt 
     1.5 lbs. Light carapils (40L)
     1 lb. Medium crystal (80L)
     2.5 oz. Fuggles, whole (3.2% AA) 
     0.3 oz. Kent Goldings (11.0% AA) 
     1/3 oz. Burton water salts 
     Wyeast #1968 (London ESB) 

I'm usually a little heavy-handed on the grain bill, so you might add 10%
to it.  Mash temp was a bit low, because the cooler and grain were cold.  I
ran 170F water thru mash three times to achive a final temp of 154F.  Mash
time was about 45-60 minutes.  Slow, 1 hour sparge, yielded about 6
gallons.  Boil for 60 min, add Fuggles at hot break (about 15 min). Then
Goldings and irish moss during last 15 min of boil.  Salts went in with the
mash water.  Quick chill with coils (about 1 hr).  Transfer to fermenter
and add 1968 yeast.  Put on air lock and store at 62F.  Rack to secondary
in 5-7 days, once fermatation out gassing reduced to a trickle. (Sometimes
I get a yeast pack that doesn't start kicking for 2 maybe 3 days, so look
for minimal out gassing). Bottled about a week later (I use the krausen,
not sugar). Let set at 62F for 3 or 4 weeks....and walla, ESB!  OG: 1.055
FG: na

My first tasting:
- -very dry tasting, but not extremely bitter
- -no malty taste
- -nice head retention
- -med dark brown color
- -minor hoppy nose
- -dry finish
- -no noticable off-tastes
- -a bit thin in body

Overall:  very good :)


Phil Olson


"Assimilate this!" Worf

"An engineer who is surrounded by machines is never lonely..." Dilbert
Principle

Phil Olson
Delphi-Saginaw Steering Systems
Advanced Product Center
Saginaw, MI
517-757-3318
web site:  http://www.concentric.net/~Bocefuss/Index.html
Email:  bocefuss at concentric.net

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Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 18:20:23 -0800
From: Lee Bollard <leeb at iea.com>
Subject: Air filters

In response to Kieth Royster's air filter post, I agree that this hobby 
has gone overboard in it's anal-retentive ways. But this is relative to 
each brewer's expertise. What may seem way overboard to me (highly 
technical water chemistry analysis discussions) may be of great value to 
others who have solved the problems I still deal with in my brewing.

That said, I'm a proponent of inline air filters. Inline air filters may 
do more than sanitize air. Perhaps the strong rubber smell from many 
aquarium pumps is something you would like to keep out of your beer? A 
homemade filter with activated charcoal between two pieces of cotton may 
help... And, after all, when you're aerating you are dealing with wort 
at it's most volatile stage. Wort is most sensitive to infection right 
after being cooled and before fermenting. Just because Keith hasn't had 
any problems doesn't mean others won't... Everyone told me that shaking 
the carboy or using a venturi tube to aerate wort and pitch larger 
amounts of yeast would help my incomplete fermentations, but until I 
started aerating with the aquarium pump I had no luck. It was like night 
and day.

Now, the small medical filters fit right on vinyl tubing nicely and are 
easy to use. You can order the .22 micron medical filters from Brewers 
Resource (part # SP-86 $3.90 ea. 800-827-3983). These are actually 
Sarstedt brand acetate "syringe filters" (Sarstedt part 83.1826.001) and 
may also be available at your local medical supply. In my opinion the 
filters are economical and practicle. Reusable, BTW.

One caveat: Don't let the filter material get wet or it will clog. What 
I do is connect the filter to the pump, then turn on pump, then connect 
the freshly sanitized airstone tubing to the filter. That way no water 
can seep into the filter. 

Now, if I had it all to do over again I would probably buy a regulator 
and airstone from Liquidbread and O2 canisters from the home center. I 
hear you need only 30 seconds of pure O2 to aerate your wort... no 
filtering needed, quicker...

- --
- --------  Lee Bollard   leeb at iea.com  --------

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Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:50:15 -0800
From: Chris Carolan <spiralc at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Wyeast London Strains

Tom Gaskell discusses Wyeast London strains

>From what I have heard about Ringwood yeast, I am beginning to believe 
>that London Special (1968) is a relative of Ringwood.  They both have 
>fairly low attenuation, produce diacetyl, flocculate like mad, and 
>need plenty of oxygen.  In each case, I think Ringwood takes these 
>behaviors to the extreme, while 1968 is the less radical step-child.

>I actually saw a brewpub, which uses Ringwood, place submersible pumps 
>into their open fermenters, and rouse and aerate the yeast by pumping 
>the green beer up a tube resembling a racking cane, which sprayed the 
>beer in a fan pattern back down into the rest of the beer in the 
>fermenter.  The beer was sprayed with enough force to raise one hell 
>of a head, and to entrain a lot of air into the brew.

Wheeler's "Brew Your Own Real Ale" discusses what he calls "Northern 
Style" English ale yeast, also referred to as "Yorkshire" yeast. He 
terms these yeast strains inappropriate for home brewing because of 
their need for additional aeration and/or rousing.  Ringwood yeast 
originated in an old Yorkshire brewery. 
Wheeler also describes how the old "Yorkshire squares" stone fermenters 
actually accomplished an effective rousing through their design. Wyeast 
1968 and 1318 seem to be among this family of yeast strains, although 
as Tom notes,. not as severe as Ringwood in their Yorkshire 
characteristics.  Yeast Labs A09 "English" is allegedly Ringwood.

My experience with London III, 1318, was a sluggish two week 
fermentation and less than optimal attenuation. I've since switched to 
a pure O2 aeration setup.  1318 has a higher listed temp range (to 74f) 
than most Wyeast strains.  A while back on r.c.b. a number of brewers 
compared notes. Those who used the yeast at the lower ends of the range 
were disappointed with its performance, while those who brewed with it 
above 70 degrees had no complaints of sluggishness. I plan to try it 
again this summer as my warm weather yeast, when I brew in the 71-74 
degree range. 

Chris

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Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:18:51 -0700
From: Vince <VJMitchell at asu.edu>
Subject: Wort & Air

Hello all,

Where might i find these stones mention with the aquarium pumps?  Are
they the same.....as an air stone used w/ aquariums?  

Vince Mitchell
VJMitchell at asu.edu

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Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:02:10 -0600
From: dcigary at txdirect.net (Gary Eckhardt)
Subject: Re:Using kegs as sparage water containers

Mack Huntress writes:

>I've been using a keg for sparge water for the past 2 batches and love it. 
>You don't have to worry about having a height difference and the sparge
>rate is MUCH more controllable.  With a gravity system you lose a lot of
>head pressure towards the end of the sparge but with a pressurized keg you
>can keep the flow rate constant or adjust it to whatever you want.  The
>heated air in the keg actually helps because you end up using less Co2 to
>pump the water.  

Hi all, thanks for all the great comments on my posting.  Everyone
seemed to think this was a great idea and I thought I'd post my
experiences with it for future reference:

I tried this idea since I posted the original question on my first
all-grain and test-run of my mashtun, and I have to tell you it sure
made things easy.  A few points:

1) One problem was tubing sizes:  My keg fittings are all 1/4 inch ID,
   and the sparage arm assembly has a fitting for 3/8 inch ID.  Solved
   this by a brass splice.  I could have used a hose clamp to hold
   the 1/4 inch tubing on top of the inlet to the sparage arm, but
   it seemed rather risky.

2) I originally bought a few nylon inline valves to control the flow,
   but it was readily apparent after a test run with the system that
   I had to have a better valve on the line from the keg to the
   sparage arm, as I ended up rather wet.  Bought a 1/4in ID brass
   needle valve with compression fittings, and it works great.  It 
   does get a little warm while sparaging so I have to use hot pads
   to adjust the flow.

3) Since this was my first all-grain batch, I didn't know what
   to expect as to how much sparage water to have.  About 3/4
   way through my sparage, I ran out of water, so I had to scramble
   with pots on the stove and in the microwave to come up with
   a few more gallons to finish the sparage.  I'll have a backup pot
   on the stove next time.

4) I wrapped the keg in a blanket, and it seemed to keep it's 
   temperature through the sparage, but I really couldn't tell
   as I didn't check it closely.  Next time I'll check.

All in all, it was an interesting first all-grain batch, and this
system made things much easier than what I've heard.  (I've done
one other all grain batch while helping a friend and it was rather
painful).


- ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------
Gary Eckhardt              |   "in this day & age...music performed by
Database Consultants, Inc. |    humans...hum!?"  --wilde silas tomkyn
dcigary at txdirect.net       |                R,DW,HAHB!
gary_eckhardt at realworld.com| R^3 = "Real World.  Real Smart.  Real Quick."
(210)344-6566              |         http://www.realworld.com/

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 01:32:13 -0500
From: "Christopher D. Hutton" <bachstar at erols.com>
Subject: cloudy beer

I recently bottled my first batch ( a pilsner).  It was very cloudy?  Is
this natural?  Please e-mail any responses.  Thanx.
Chris

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:21:44 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Maple syrup

"W. Scott Snyder" <w-snyder at students.uiuc.edu> asks about maple syrup:

> Anyone have any pointers on adding Maple Syrup to your brew?  I'm
> thinking specifically of a Maple Porter (ala Pete's Wicked).  How much
> syrup to use?  Should I add it late to the boil or does it matter?  Is
> there a specific type of syrup to use and/or avoid?

Not a complete answer but here's a data point.  I made a maple rye beer,
basically a brewpub blonde ale designed to show off the maple and the rye
(~40%).  I used 1/3 of a gallon of real maple syrup in 9 gallons of beer.
I was disappointed in the result, this was just over threshold to taste
the maple.  I was afraid of cidery tastes from too little FAN if I added
too much.  This is >10% of the fermentables as it is so I'm not sure
how much maple one could add safely and whether this would be tasteable
in a flavorful beer like porter.  I certainly wouldn't try this on an
extract beer.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb

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Homebrew Digest       Tuesday, January 14 1997       Volume 02 : Number 030



Procedures:

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   (including any other text) in your unsubscribe message.
If you are still having difficulty, send a message to <admin at softsolut.com>
   with a description of your message, and we shall attempt to resolve
   the problem.

1	Tannin Extraction During Decoction Mash (Art McGregor)
2	re: Heating Mash
3	RE: Sunbeam (and Bianca) hops / Don Van Valkenburg

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Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:28:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Art McGregor <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil>
Subject: Use and Storage of Bulk LME (Art McGregor)

Howdy Homebrewers!

I saw some large containers of LME the other day at the beer store, and was
wondering about how to use and store them.  The containers are 33 lbs or
equivalent of ten 3.3 lb cans.  Presumably you would use 6.6-10.0 lbs (2-3
cans) of LME for a 5 gallon batch.  How should you store the remaining 23-26
lbs of LME?  
1)  Keep in original plastic container at room temp
2)  Keep original container in refrigerator
3)  Transfer to lager mason jars and them put in refrigerator

If it was kept in the large original container and put in refrigerator, I would
think it would be quite hard to use (very thick and slow pouring) for the next
5 gallon batch.  Anybody with experience with these, or any comments?  The
potential cost saving of this bulk LME purchase make this more attractive than
purchase of other quantity/bulk extract :^) ...  but it may be to messy to fool
with :^(    TIA!

Hoppy Brewing,
Art McGregor  (Northern Virginia)
(day: mcgregap at acq.osd.mil	night: apmcgregor at nmaa.org)

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:52:20 -0500
From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: #1338 at low temp (Dave Whitman)

In HBD#29, George De Piro <George_De_Piro at berlex.com> asks about using
Wyeast #1338 at low temperatures:

>Just a quick observation about Wyeast 1338, the "European Ale" strain. 
>     I currently have it fermenting at 56F (13.3C).  It seems to be doing 
>     well; the Kraeusen is a bit smaller than expected, but otherwise 
>     chugging along.
>     
>     I was wondering if anybody else has tried to push the lower 
>     temperature limit of this yeast?  I believe the Wyeast sheet says that 
>     it's lower limit is 60F (15.6C), but that doesn't seem to be true.

George, we must be sharing the same weather.  I've got an alt fermenting
right now using #1338, also at ambient temp of 56F, despite sitting right
next to my furnace.  

Seems to be fermmenting fine - about 2" of krausen, and a heavenly smell
coming out of the airlock.  

We should compare notes after our batches settle down.  I'm less worried
about high terminal gravity than whether the low temperature will suppress
ester formation.

- ---
Dave Whitman     dwhitman at rohmhaas.com
"The opinions expressed are those of the author, and not Rohm and Haas Co."

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 06:05:46 -0600
From: dcigary at txdirect.net (Gary Eckhardt)
Subject: RE: Brew Your Own magazine

I've been reading BYO for about a year, and it seems like a good
magazine for a novice brewer (which, after a year, I guess I still
am).  The articles are interesting, and informative for someone who's
just getting into homebrewing, like articles on brewing in a small
space, what hops do for you, etc.  I've tried reading the "Z" magazine,
and although I'm sure it's packed with information, it's just too
dang rough to read.  Sorta like reading a mathmatical proof book:
I'm sure that some people find it riveting and exciting, but I don't.
Haven't picked up Brewing Techniques yet, but I understand it's very
good.  As always, IMHO.



- ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------
Gary Eckhardt              |   "in this day & age...music performed by
Database Consultants, Inc. |    humans...hum!?"  --wilde silas tomkyn
dcigary at txdirect.net       |                R,DW,HAHB!
gary_eckhardt at realworld.com| R^3 = "Real World.  Real Smart.  Real Quick."
(210)344-6566              |         http://www.realworld.com/

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:20:23 -0500
From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: starter recipe

In HBD#30, John Chang asks for a recipe for making starters from DME.

I use a standard recipe that I scale up or down to make a given amount of wort.
All the ingredients are based on the volume of wort I want to end up with.

  water to make desired volume
  10% DME based on water weight
  0.3% yeast energizer based on water weight (diammonium phosphate)
  0.3% yeast extract based on water weight (Marmite)

This makes a starter with SG about 1.040.

Example: to make 200 ml of starter wort, I'd put 200 ml of water into my
container, then add 20 g of DME, 0.6 g of DAP and 0.6 g of Marmite.  To use
immediately, I'd boil 20 minutes, then cool.  To keep, I'd pressure can the
mixture for 20 minutes at 15 psi.

For years, I used just water and DME with no problems, but the starters were
always pretty sluggish, never developing a real krausen.  I'm pretty sure
that many DME's are cut with some simple sugar to make them more tractable
during spray drying.  This leaves them deficient in free amino nitrogen and
other nutrients that the yeast need.  The DAP and yeast extract are optional
ingredients that correct for this deficiency.  I have much more vigorous
starters since adding those two ingredients.

I normally don't bother hopping my starters, but don't see any reason why it
would hurt them to do so, and might help suppress infection.

- ---
Dave Whitman     dwhitman at rohmhaas.com
"The opinions expressed are those of the author, and not Rohm and Haas Co."

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:34:26 -0500
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Continuous Fermenters/O2

Ken Sullivan asked about continuosus fermenters. It's a promising idea but
don't rush to the patent office. They've been there already. While
continuous fermenters aren't that popular in this country I understand that
the technology is fairly common in Asia. The MBAA's "The Practical Brewer"
(Ed. W.A. Hardwick) has a little on this and "Handbook of Brewing", edited
by the same guy, Marcel Dekker, New York 1995 has a bit more. One of the
schemes involves holding the yeast in filter pads just as Ken suggested.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Al writes:

>Dave writes, quoting AJ:
>AJ> This is true for inflow as well as outgo so the
>AJ>experimental numbers for the stockpot are somewhat applicable. It took
>AJ>about three hours for the DO level to drop from 66% above saturation to 58%
>AJ>above saturation in the experiment. Water in the same pot should thus move
>AJ>from 66% below saturation to 58% below saturation in about the same time.

>>I agree that transport phenomena should be the same, but you are looking
>>at >>66% saturation with oxygen trying to come to equilibrium with 20%
>>oxygen in >>the air.  Not really the same ballpark as 0% saturation in
>>equilibrium with >>20% oxygen.

>You are missing a lot of oxygen there... rember that it's 66% ABOVE
>saturation or 166% of saturation.  You're right that this is not in
>the ballpark of 0% relative to 20% -- it's a *great* deal more.

Assuming that the rate of flow is proportional to the partial pressure
difference and the area of the interface and using the 3 hour number (from
166% to 158%) to determine the flow rate per unit pressure difference, the
time required to go from 58% to 66%  would be 10.5 hours. I think the
readers should be allowed to judge for themselves as to whether that is
"about the same time". Pehaps I will be accused of "linear thinking".

A. J. deLange
- - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.
Please Note New e-mail Address

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:38:19 -0500 (EST)
From: JSC1117 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest V2 #28

DONT' CARE

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:38:43 -0500 (EST)
From: JSC1117 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest V2 #29

STILL DON'T READ

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:39:03 -0500 (EST)
From: JSC1117 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest V2 #30

DO NOT WANT TO READ

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:05:43 -0800
From: George De Piro <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Deschutes Beer  (George De Piro)

     Hello all,
     
     A friend of mine is heading out to Oregon this weekend, and I've asked 
     him to bring me back some beer.  One of the breweries that I was most 
     impressed by on my trip out there last year was Deschutes.
     
     I was going to ask him to get me the Obsidian Stout and Black Butte 
     Porter, but it then occurred to me that they may have introduced 
     something new in the past year.  Any recommendations?
     
     Private E-mail is probably more appropriate than posts because of the 
     EXTREMELY limited interest of this query, plus the time factor (he 
     leaves on Friday night).
     
     Thanks in advance, have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:59:59 -0800
From: George De Piro <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: RE: Boiing the wort the day after mashing (George De Piro)

     Howdy,
     
     Steve Alexander brings up some potential problems with my idea of 
     boiling the wort the day after you mash.  He also has some questions.
     
     First, to refresh memories and to clarify my original post, the wort 
     is collected in the kettle, heated to near boiling, covered and left 
     for several hours (overnight) while I go about the rest of my life.
     
     The next day the heat is turned on (T=~130 or so), the wort boiled, 
     hops added, etc.
     
     Steve brings up the DMS problem.  He is correct that DMS is formed at 
     the temp that the wort is sitting at, and because the cover is on, it 
     doesn't all evaporate.  The boiling point of DMS is quite low, though 
     (95F, 35C), so I am confident that it is boiled off the next day.
     
     I, too, was concerned about oxidation of the wort, but I rationalized 
     that:
     
     1. The wort is not going to hold dissolved O2 at the temperatures 
     involved.
     
     2. The water does evaporate substantially (my cover isn't super tight; 
     I lost about 1 gallon), so how much air is over the wort as compared 
     to water vapor?
     
     I'm not sure that these rationalizations are logical or correct, 
     though.  Any opinions?
     
     Steve asks about the shelf life of the beers made this way.  I've done 
     this 4 times.  Twice the beers were light ales meant for mass 
     consumption at large parties, so I don't know how they would have been 
     past the age of 1.5 months (poor things lead such a short existence).  
     Being light ales, however, problems such as DMS should have been quite 
     apparent (both were made with mostly German Pils malt), and it wasn't.
     
     One other was a Bavarian Weizen.  It seemed fine for the few months 
     that it was around.  No DMS, no noticeable oxidation.
     
     The fourth beer is in the fermenter now.  I'll let you know what 
     happens.  For what it's worth, the wort didn't smell particularly 
     corn-like after the boil.
     
     I would be afraid of keeping the wort overnight at lower temps because 
     of the inevitable bacterial action, although it could actually help 
     some styles.  Not a bad way to sour a dry stout, actually.  Hmmm.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:52:54 -0800
From: George De Piro <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: RE: Long mash time/trub removal/diacetyl in ESB (G. De Piro)

     Hello again,
      
     Ronnie Baert writes:
     > Beware of extremely long mash timrs: it can cause to a typical 
     flavour 
     > like "boiled vegetables".
     
     I don't think I've ever heard of this before.  Long mash times can 
     cause excessive tannin extraction, giving the beer a husky 
     astringency.  "Boiled vegetables" is usually indicative of an 
     infection.
     --------------------
     Braam asks about trub removal.  It is true that trub contains some 
     yeast nutrients, but they are not essential if the wort is well 
     oxygenated (the yeast need an oxygen source for cell membrane 
     development).
     
     Many brewers remove as much trub as they can in an effort to make a 
     clean tasting beer.  I regularly remove both hot and cold break from 
     my lagers, and don't (usually) have fermentation problems.
     --------------------
     Tom G. writes about high diacetyl levels in ESB, and how he managed to 
     reduce them.  I thought diacetyl was welcome in an ESB, isn't it?  I 
     was also under the impression that brewers who aerate during 
     fermentation are helping to boost diacetyl levels?  Am I wrong about 
     this?
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 97 10:04:39 EST
From: Eric Peters <epeters at rtp.semi.harris.com>
Subject: Re: Air filter - The Final Answer (Eric Peters)

Keith writes:
>The HBD needs a good lively discussion, so here's my attempt to start 
>one...
>Sorry if I'm sounding a bit harsh here, but the anal-retentive
>beliefs regarding sanitation that abound in the homebrewing community
>frustrate me.  It seems we focus on more elaborate (and silly, IMHO)
>methods to keep contaminates out when if we'd spend just half that
>effort on general house keeping and pitching an adequate quantity of
>yeast we'd actually be better off (same result, less effort).

Keith, I couldn't agree with you more.  The battle against infections
must always be fought on two fronts; reasonable (not anal) cleanliness 
and healthy pitching.  Especially the latter, which can't be overstated,
but seems to get overlooked in this forum and others.

I brew in the back yard.  My CF chiller and fermenters see a *mild* bleach
and water solution (after they are cleared of leaves, sticks and general
lawn debris [Stupid dog!]) and are rinsed with (brace yourself) well water 
from the garden hose that was just lying in the mud!  Oh, my!  Over 600 
gallons brewed, 60+ batches, no infections, and I don't stop brewing in the
hot, humid, summer months.

I always pitch a high volume of healthy yeast into an extremely well 
shaken carboy.  I usually see strong active fermentation within a couple
of hours and have seen fermentation take off in less than one hour.  If I 
am not pitching a jar of 1056 from the local brewery, then I start yeast
a week in advance.

*warning* - I'm not a yeast expert, but this works for me.  YMMV.

Starter for 20 gallons of wort:
day 1 - Smack the pack
day 2 - Pitch swollen pack into 1 qt starter wort
day 4 - Decant starter, pitch into 2 qt starter wort
day 5 - Decant starter, pitch into 1 gal starter wort
day 6 - Decant starter, pitch into 1 gal starter wort
day 7 - Brew, decant starter, pitch slurry into carboys

Every time I feed the starters I shake the living  at #$% out of them.  The 
starters are a lot of work, and $, so I always opt for the local brewery 
sample when available.

Pitch well, practice *reasonable* cleanliness, and come brew day forget about 
your rubber gloves, HEPA filters, laser beams, etc.

Pitch Well and Prosper,
Eric Peters
Durham, NC

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:06:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "Steven D. Lefebvre" <slefebvr at zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: re. long mash times and off odors

	In regards to long mash times I have read about and performed 
several overnight mashes (6+ hours).  I have never or have not heard of 
anyone gettin off flavors from this method.
       In general I mash in a cooler and the temperature drops about 4F 
at most.  In order to get a full bodied beer I have mashed at 156F and 
have had good results.  Both alpha and beta amylases will denature after 
a few hours (beta more quickly at this temp) and no further degradation 
of starches will occur.  This leaves the beer with enough dextrins to 
have medium to full body.

Peace
Steve

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:20:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Larry M Matthews <lmatt at ipass.net>
Subject: What's the limit

Morning!
   I've been kegging my beers for a few years now and usually keep 4-5 kegs
available at all times. About every 6 months, I'll prepare a keg of
iodophor solution to sanitize my delivery hoses. I usually keep 6-8
different lengths available to match up the beer styles with the different
hose lengths so that carbonation and head development can be maximized. My
question. Is cleaning the lines every 6 months sufficient? I often switch
kegs and don't sanitize or switch lines if I'll replacing with a like style
beer. As long as the last of the previous keg was fine, I just push through
about a 1/4 glass of the possible mixed beer and begin the carbonation
process for the new keg. Within a 6 month period I may go through 2-3 kegs
at 3 or 4 of the taps. I'm just too lazy to dedicate a beer keg to iodophor
only and clean everytime I switch out a keg. However, once I've filled a
corny with iodorphor. it's simple to clean all lines in about 30 minutes. I
always clean my line for the CPF at this time also although I often feel
the need to clean it after each filling for a contest.
   For others who keg extensively, how often do you clean the supply lines
or for that fact actually change the lines? Private email is fine.

					Larry M Matthews
					Carboy/Trub Member
					Raleigh, NC 27606
					lmatt at ipass.net

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:26:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Decocting US malts/lager pitching

Steve correctly notes:

<stating that they (as do I) regularly decoct munich and vienna malts.
<Perhaps the problem is the source of the malt.  One widely distributed
<US maltster uses 6-row barley for every malt except one labeled as
<2-row pale.  I can imagine that a decoction from it's 6-row munich or
<6-row crystal might turn out badly.

While Im no fan of most of the domestic specialty malts I was pleasently
suprised with some results of decocting domestic 6 row Vienna malt at
a local micro.  The micro made a Oktoberfest with a good deal of the
grist being comprised of Vienna malt made from 6 row barley.  While
this beer was perfectly fermented with ideal conditions and W34/70 yeast
it was also lagered over 6 weeks at 31F.  The resulting maltiness and
subtle grain bite was very pleasing indeed, even if it was no Paulaner
Maerzen.

someone else writes:
<I thought Vienna Malt was highly modified and would not require a protein 
<rest. However, I picked up a recipe for a marzen that calls for 9+ lbs of 
<vienna, plus some other stuff, and the recipe calls for a *double decoction* 
<mash.

This is how Maerzens/Festbiers are made.  Victory's is double decocted.

Al said something about pitching his lagers at 55-60F and once his
immersion chiller went all the way down to 50F.  I would suggest that
cleaner lagers are created by commencing the fermentation stage at 
42-46F and allowing the fermentation to generate the rise in temp into
the high 40s/low 50s.  Of course this requires optimum pitching rates
and DO levels.  Im pretty sure AJ does this practice at home and he 
makes some of the tastiest homebrewed lagers Ive ever had.

Prost!

Jim Busch

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 07:28:08 PST
From: bill stumbo <stumbo at eng.mc.xerox.com>
Subject: Propane Cookers

I'm looking into getting a propane cooker, since I know next to nothing
about them I thought I'd ask the collective.

I've seen a variety of Cajun Cookers advertised with BTUs from 110k up.  In
fact, I noticed a 135K BTU Cajun Cooker advertised for $18.49.  I like the
price, but am I going to be happy with the results?

Any comments on the various varieties of cookers?  Is there a particular
one you like?  One's you dislike?  Things I should look for in a cooker?

How much control over the flame do the various cookers have?  Are my
options going to be on or off?  How efficient are the various cookers?

My brewing is currently extract in 5 gallon batches.  I'd like to try all
grain at some point in time.  

Thanks,

bill
stumbo at eng.mc.xerox.com 

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 97 08:21 PST
From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Special-B vs Belgian Aromatic

I have a recipe that calls for Belgian Aromatic. I went to buy some and the 
homebrew shop owner said that it's the same as Special-B and sold me some.

Yesterday I talked with a guy that's got a Porter recipe that calls for 
Belgian Aromatic and he says that maybe next time he's going to use 
Special-B INSTEAD!

As usual, I'm confused. Are they the same thing or not?

Charley

BTW - my recipe is for a marzen, does the Special-B make sense here? Its 
only 3/4 pound most of the rest is Vienna.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Burns, Director, Information Systems
Elk Grove Unified School District
cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us, http://www.egusd.k12.ca.us
916-686-7710 (voice), 916-686-4451 (fax)
http://www.innercite.com/~cburns/

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:48:59 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Long mash time causes "off" odors?

"John R. Bowen" <jbowen at primary.net> wrote:

>Ronnie Baert writes:
>> Beware of extremely long mash timrs: it can cause to a typical flavour
>> like "boiled vegetables".

This is typical of an infection, not the result of a long mash.  I don't
think anything is going to be growing at mash temperatures.

>What is an extremely long mash time?  I have recently started partial
>grain brewing (I can't handle a full wort boil, so its hard to do all
>grain).  I heard someone talking about mashing overnight in an oven, and
>that seemed too easy to pass up, so I tried it:  6 lb pale ale malt, 4
>oz wheat malt, 2 oz crystal.  Heat 7 qt water to 120F, add 1 tsp gypsum
>and grains, wait about 10 min and adjust pH to 5.3 with phosphoric acid.
>Pop it in the oven (convection type, with circulating fan) at 150F and
>go to bed.  Sparge and brew in the morning.  Sure shortens the brew day!
>
>I didn't smell (or taste) any DMS or other off odors, but it is still
>fermenting.
>
>I understand that I will get a high conversion and probably low
>dextrins, which will be unsuitable fo some styles.  But that aside, am I
>really looking for trouble here?  Will the grain bill make a difference?

I don't think you're asking for any "trouble" wrg off-flavors from your
procedure, but there could be other problems.  Pale ale malt doesn't need a
protein rest, and the time it takes the oven to raise the mash from 120 to
150 is probably *very* long, especially without any stirring.  Air, even
with a convection oven, is a very poor transferer of heat.  I wonder how
long it takes.  My guess is many hours, and your wort is going to spent a
lot of time at 135 - 145F, with the result that you would get a very low
dextrin wort.  My suggestion is to skip the protein rest and mash in to
your desired conversion temperature (150-153F), then put it in the oven.

I used oven mashes for 15 years, often overnight, other times for just one
hour.  I never had any problems with over-conversion or anything else.
Worked fine, and made fine beers.

Jeff

- -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu

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Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:16:35 -0600
From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com
Subject: Mead?

     Greetings from the winter wonderland of Texas (I wonder when it will 
     end)
     
     I have some friends who recently moved here from CA.  The used to 
     raise bees for honey and brought with them about 50 gallons 
     unprocessed that they need to do something with or throw it out.  I 
     suggested mead and they thought it would be a great idea.  I have 
     never tasted or made mead and neither have they.  Therefore, I was 
     wondering what would be recommended for a first try.  They like blush 
     wine and I lean towards Italian reds.  They like commercially made 
     domestic swill but enjoy most beer styles and appreciate the homebrews 
     I have given them. I usually prefer IPA's, ESB's, and Marzens.  I 
     don't know whether to go for spiced/fruited/pure or sparkling/still.  
     Also, it is my impression from the HBD that these things take a while 
     (as in 6 to 12 months).  I don't have a lot of empty carboys or spare 
     refrigeration space for fermentation.  But I can't wait a year between 
     batches, can I?
     
     Does anybody know of any sources for commercial or homemade mead in 
     the Austin area that I could sample?  Would anybody like to offer 
     advice or opinions on the best way to utilize this honey windfall? 
     Would any Central Texas meadmakers want to trade some honey for some 
     mead?  Private e-mail is probably most appropriate.
     
     TIA
     
     Lou Heavner
     <lheavner at frmail.frco.com>

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #2311