HOMEBREW Digest #2328 Tue 28 January 1997

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  O2 / Geuze, / carbonation (Ed & Laura Hitchcock)
  Freshman Digest (The Holders)
  drilling SS & yeast starters (Sharon/Dan Ritter)
  How much Mg is too much? (Jeff Renner)
  gueze (Jeff Sturman)
  bottles (funkyj)
  Crisp Malt/stuck sparge (Mike Dowd)
  temp? (Stephen Jordan)
  Lacking Carbonation in a Batch of fake "Celebration" (Robin Watson)
  Mashing Below 149 F (Kyle Druey)
  Assistant Brewer position open ("E. Darren Ellis")
  Temperature measurement, etc. (Bruce Baker)
  Weizen yeasts, wire trivets ("John L. Heubel")
  Trappist Ales ("John L. Heubel")
  re:  aeration filtration ("Stuart E. Strand")
  Chicago-Celis, apologies (UTC -05:00)" <rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com>
  Cloride sanitizers (rjlee)
  Re: No Head (Louis Gordon)
  re: No Head! (Uncanny) (Denis Barsalo)
  Re: Mint Stout( HBD#2327 ) ("John R. Bowen")
  Weizen yeast (John Goldthwaite)
  Ponderous stuff ("David R. Burley")
  Badger's Sea Foam Pale Ale (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
  Results from Formerly Depressed Brewer (Bob Bessette/PicTel)
  Thanks Pat!/idophor stains/acids and copper (Jeff)
  Making and Packaging of Root Beer (Duffy Toler) ("Toler, Duffy L.")
  First all-grain (AJN)
  fancy siphon/Whitbread clone/acronyms (smurman)
  London Ale 1028 Hot/Cold Break Confusion (Tim Martin)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:23:34 -0500 From: Ed & Laura Hitchcock <ehitchcock at oise.utoronto.ca> Subject: O2 / Geuze, / carbonation Dave Burley raises some very interesting point for discussion. Just to throw some more fuel on the fire, may I suggest that the rate of uptake of O2 may not be linear with concentration? If the relationship is, say, exponential, then at 8 ppm the uptake would be 4 times as fast as at 4 ppm, or 16 times as fast as at 2 ppm. Thus while concentrations are high, *much* more O2 can be taken up per cell before budding, meaning the yeast can cycle through several more generations before the "protective" effects of whatever the oxygen does is diminished. This is of course pure speculation, but what do you think? *** >> We have some home brew riding on this one: How do you pronounce Gueuze? >> (blended lambic beer) > >Its 'gerz' sort of a growl with a 'z' at the end. >(an american 'z' sound, not 'zed'). In the french part it's pronounced "geuz" with the eu sound the same as the french "deux" (two). In the flemmish part it's "cheu-tsa" with the ch sound like "chanakah", the throat-clearing germanic g. Michael Jackson suggests thinking of the word "cursor", but think of it with a british accent (the way MJ would say it). *** John W. Carpenter responds to my post: >> I think this is the key. Filtered beer definitely has fewer proteins >>in solution, and has larger bubbles and poor head retention. > >How can you say definitely? Look at Guinness. It's been filtered and it has a >great head! Don't you agree? Oh indeed I do. Bad choice of words on my part, should have read "poorer" head, but that sounds terrible. But the example given was filtered Budmilloors vs bottle conditioned homebrew. Don't you think filtration has something to do with it? As for how filters can remove particles smaller than the pore size, what do you think happens to the filters when you start running beer though them? Think about straining the dregs of wort and pelletized hops through a sieve - it just gums up, even though there are plenty of small particles that could easilly fit through. Or think of sparging and lautering, you get clear runoff from large slots of holes in the manifold. Yeast cells, large proteins and other suspended junk will act as a filter bed, reducing effective pore size, increasing filtration. Cheers. ed Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:25:33 -0800 From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com> Subject: Freshman Digest In # 2325, Al K says: >I mean, as much as I like to help out and answer beginners' questions, if not for the discussions of planispiral chillers, beerstone removal,and anthocyanogens, I don't know if it could keep my interest. I think the whole point, Al, is that some people want to talk on their own level, and aren't concerned with your interest. Not everyone is a Ph.D., or Chemist, or Metallurgist. Some ordinary people want to have ordinary talk about ordinary things. I use the 'page down' extensively on many posts, and would probably subscribe to both digests. I'm no expert, hell, I don't even play one on TV, but I do like to brew, but not in the ethereal plane. Wayne Holder Long Beach CA "Home of the Toob(tm)" - -- "contrary to my own opinions, I'm NOT always correct.... at least that's what I think..." Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:30:33 -0800 From: Sharon/Dan Ritter <ritter at camasnet.com> Subject: drilling SS & yeast starters Many thanks to everyone that responded to my post about drilling stainless steel. If you would like a compilation of the responses, send me a note via private e-mail. Lately there has been some discussion about yeast starters. A few years ago, there was a series of threads about the different effects of using malt extract vs. runnings from all grain batches for starters. When I first started stepping up my yeast from smack-packs I noticed that when pitching the yeast into starter wort made from DME I got sluggish starts and lethargic yeast activity (despite adequate aeration and the use of yeast nutrients). When I switched to using all-grain starters I was amazed at the difference - vigorous activity, shorter lag times, big krausen! Since then, I have used all-grain runnings for my starters. About once every six months I throw together a batch (~1.040 SG) of whatever misc. grains I have lying around. I boil as usual, add hops to lower the pH (this is my precaution against botulism - am I kidding myself?), and can it in quart and pint jars using a boiling water bath. There was a long discussion about the chemistry of this malt extract vs. all-grain wort difference that I have since forgot (old age!). Dan Ritter <ritter at camasnet.com> Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery Grangeville, Idaho Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:52:17 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: How much Mg is too much? In the new, old and unimproved, HBD (Hooray!) 2325, AlK says >Furthermore, watch the Mg levels... too >much will give you the runs. How much Mg is too much here? Brewers are going to keep it to well under 100ppm, I'd think. Foster (_Pale Ale_) gives 50-60ppm for Burton water. That's hardly "a dose of salts." Surely you'd have a lot of water drinking folks in Burton-on-Trent with the trots if that level were a problem. I suspect it would take many 100s if not 1000 ppm Mg for GI effects. Any pharmacists care to address this? Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:42:56 -0700 From: Jeff Sturman <brewshop at coffey.com> Subject: gueze Thanks to the many people who emailed me their best guesses at the pronunciation of Gueze. Problem is, I got about a dozen different answers: gooze gayrz garz gayz gwayz gertzer goez goo-ez etc, etc Many people commented that the word wil indeed be pronounced differently in different parts of the world. M. Jackson (in the New World Guide to Beer) says the closest English word would be 'cursor'. ?? I won the bet, I estimated gayz, the other guy swore it was gize (guys). What an ignaramous. :) jeff casper, wy Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:01:22 +1100 From: funkyj <Falzo at speednet.com.au> Subject: bottles hi, i am a newbie at beer brewing and i live in australia (congrats to hingis !!), sydney. i was wondering could you use 750ml twist tops to bottle beer... or would it be better to use non-twist... also would it be possible to use Coke bottles/PET's (plastic) for bottling beer ... would anyone in sydney know what beer comes in non-twist tops. all help greatly appreciated, Paul G falzon... (i am brewing now) Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:11:37 -0500 From: mikedowd at geocities.com (Mike Dowd) Subject: Crisp Malt/stuck sparge Hmm. I tried to send this a few days ago, but I think things got screwed up when the address changed, so here it is again. Alex writes: > Sorry, it wasn't my intention to hurt your pride. You had asked for > suggestions and it's hard for anyone who hasn't got the stuff in their > hands to say, "Don't worry Mike, you just got a bad batch of grain." I > didn't think many bad batches of grain got around, and the other likely > alternative was procedural." Don't worry Alex, my pride is unwounded. What I objected to in your post was not that you were telling me my procedures were bad, but that you were doing so without explaining why. _Why_ is my technique not well suited to my equipment? _Why_ would resting at 104F have a negative impact on sparging? _Why_ would a thick mash during saccrification but not during mashout/lautering make for difficulties during lautering? If you (or anyone else) have answers to any of these questions, I would definitely like to hear them -- I'm not just looking for people to tell me what I want to hear. What I'm really trying to figure out is _why_ this happened. I certainly appreciate the replies I have gotten -- there were several times in the past when I wrote into the HBD with what seemed to me like interesting topics, but never heard a peep from anyone else; meanwhile, there seemed to be 53 posts every day on the "Beer in Space" thread. (Note: this is not, repeat _not_, an invitation to restart the Beer in Space thread. If it is finally dead, let it stay that way, please.) But if you write in attacking a man's technique, you can't expect him not to defend himself. ;) In reply to your questions, there is no difference between the Crisp malt and any other pale ale malt in the way it feels, tastes, or looks. There may be a way for me to get it analyzed it further -- I will check into it, and if I can find a way, I will report back. Mike Michael Dowd Whoever makes a poor beer is transferred Yeastie Boy Brewing to the dung-hill. Pittsburgh, PA mikedowd at geocities.com -Edict, City of Danzig, 11th Century Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:21:01 -0500 From: Stephen Jordan <komusubi at together.net> Subject: temp? I just brewed a IPA yesterday and have it in a glass 6 gal carboy in basement. My question is about temp. of the carboy. I have a stick on thermometer on the side and it is reading 76-78 F.. Is this okay Email reply ok , komusubi at together.net Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:46:56 +0000 From: Robin Watson <RobinWatson at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Lacking Carbonation in a Batch of fake "Celebration" I have had this very promising batch of fake Sierra Nevada Celebration in bottles for about 10 days. My first attempt to sample a bottle was disappointing. The beer was very flat--hardly any carbonation. I was afraid it might not be sealed, but had the same experience with the second bottle. Why do you suppose it isn't carbonating? Background: This is an all grain batch. I racked it to a secondary after a week. I dry hopped with an ounce of Cascades plugs for about 10 days and then racked it a second time to let it settle. It was still fermenting very slowly--maybe one bubble every 5-10 minutes--when I bottled it. I added a cup and a half of dry malt extract boiled in water for fermentation in the bottle. I cooled the mix before mixing in the bottling bucket. Is there a problem or haven't I waited long enough? I don't think it is infected. It has no hint of an infected taste and I was meticulous about sanitation. I've thought about reopening all of the bottles and dosing each with a shot of dissolved sugar, but that's a last resort. I'd hate to lose this promising batch of "Celebration" but I would particularly like to find out if I have fouled up the fundamentals before I do another batch. Thanks. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:37:43 -0800 From: Kyle Druey <kdldmd at lightspeed.net> Subject: Mashing Below 149 F This was posted a few days ago: > From: DENNIS WALTMAN <PDWALTMAN at sablaw.com> > Subject: Long rest at 140 and other errors > The temp was at or around 140. > By this time we suspected our thermometers and were using three > (140F, 142F, 140F). > What did the rest at 140 F for nearly 90 minutes do to the beer? Does anyone else have experience mashing below 149 F? I have had good results as low 146 F, but have been too chicken to go lower than that. Some popular homebrew references mention that the lowest sacharification temperature is 149 F (Noonan, Miller, Line) because it is said that starch does not fully galatinize until 149 F. However, I know that Fix has listed the starch gelatinization temp at 131 F to 149 F, and that the apparent attenuation of wort produced by a mash at 140 F is 76.1%. Does anyone else have experience mashing between 140 F to 149 F, and references regarding this. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:10:08 -0500 (EST) From: "E. Darren Ellis" <dellis at utkux.utcc.utk.edu> Subject: Assistant Brewer position open I'm posting this for a friend who isn't on-line, please direct any questions/comments to him at the number listed. Thanks! Assistant brewer wanted for new microbrewery in East Tennessee. Would prefer all-grain homebrewer for position. Job starts in June 1997, must be willing to relocate. Salary negotiable. Please contact Ron Downer at (423) 523-4615 for further information or send your resume to: Ron Downer 4955 Ball Camp Pike Knoxville, Tn. 37921 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- E. Darren Ellis http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~dellis/Darren.htm Dellis at utkux.utcc.utk.edu Darren at utknp3.phys.utk.edu Ellis at dirac.physics.jmu.edu Ellis at cebaf.gov University of Tennessee / Dept. of Physics / Fax: (423) 974-7843 Physics Bldg. / Knoxville, TN. 37996 / Telephone: (423) 974-3342 2900 Rennoc Rd. / Knoxville, TN. 37918 / (423) 281-9521 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:57:54 +1300 From: Bruce Baker <Bruce.E.Baker at tsy.treasury.govt.nz> Subject: Temperature measurement, etc. G'day y'all, Dave Miller and others recommend using a stiff mash in order to get maximum enzyme activity. However, I have found that a stiff mash makes it nearly impossible to get an accurate temperature reading. I go for a fairly loose mash, and even so find that the temperature can vary as much as ten degrees from spot to spot within the pot when I'm raising the temperature. How on earth can you get an accurate temperature in a stiff mash? On an unrelated topic, here's a tip I discovered. In order to prevent scorching on an electric stove, put a piece of metal with legs on it inside the pot. That way, your grain bag (assuming you use one) can sit on the false bottom without scorching. I use a piece of stamped metal designed to keep pot roasts from sticking to the bottom of the pan for this purpose. Also a tip from the BBQ list: if you buy one of those new-fangled digital thermometers, beware that they are not waterproof. Make sure you don't submerge the braided part of the lead in water (or beer). I did this and got some bizarre readings. Cheers, Bruce Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:29:30 -0600 From: "John L. Heubel" <jlheubel at wf.net> Subject: Weizen yeasts, wire trivets Been lurking around the HBD for awhile and finally got caught up for a timely response: Gavin Scarman writes: <SNIP> I have been using Yeast Labs W51 at various temperatures trying to get those clove-like phenols and banana esters. They are there but very, very faint. Has anyone any hope to offer me in Wyeast weihenstephan? I've been using Wyeast #3068 Weihenstephan exclusively for my Weizenbiers for the past 3 years and have been very happy with the results. Fermenting at 64-68 F produces plenty of phenolics. I have heard that the new #3333? is also good but with reduced levels of phenolics. David Conger writes in HBD v2 #42 3. I've read that the heat distribution from an electric stove can be improved (less scorching) by elevating the brewpot slightly above the burner with a wire trivet. Can anyone tell me more about this? I'm curious as to where I could find a trivet or how to make one from a coat hanger. How much separation should it put between the pot and burner? I don't use the wire hanger method but on that works very well. I had some ceramic bathroom tiles leftover (4 1/4" square x 3/16 thick). Cut some of them apart so they'd fit better on top of the stove. I make a stack three tiles thick and place three piles of them spaced evenly around the burner plate. This keeps my brewpot approx 1/8" above the heating elements and prevents overheating the stove, scorching and enables a cover-off, full-rolling boil since the whole element glows bright red. I've recently purchased a propane cooker but it's still a little cold to go outside for the brewing. Hope this helps. heubs Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:10:34 -0600 From: "John L. Heubel" <jlheubel at wf.net> Subject: Trappist Ales Rich Moore writes: I happen to find myself in Barcelona, Spain for a few days. My first night out, I managed to find a little bar who specializes in Belgian beer. (Isn't it amazing how we can home in on places like this....) They have about a hundred varieties. What I would like to know is, what are the six Trappist breweries of Belgium, and the names of the beers they make? I know Chimay and Orval, but can't remember the rest. I feel certain that they have 'em all. Here's the brewing tie in - I plan to take yeast samples, and I need to know which beers to get. Also, besides the 'big six', what others would you want to get if you had the chance. I have a limit of about 12 total samples. <SNIP> There's actually only 5 Trappists still in Belgium they are: Orval , Chimay , Rochefort , Westmalle , Westvletteren All are excellent. I was stationed at Spangdahlem AB for 3 years (45 min from Belgium) and was able to sample many (got to love their grocery stores). I believe the Westvletteren is sold under the St. Bernardus label but am not positive about that. Anyway, each makes several strengths and probably (speculation) use the same yeast for all (in-house, not between breweries). I'm torn between Rochefort and Westmalle for which I feel is best. So there's 5. Other great abbey-style beers are Affligem, Maredsous, Steenbrugge, and Tongerlo. That makes 9. you could go for some of the Cat. S beers like La Biere Du Demon, De Verboden Vrucht, Bush Beer, Kwak, Het Elfde Gebod or Lucifer OR if you're into any Belgian style, I'd suggest trying Hoegaarden or Rodenbach Grand Cru, Dentergems Wit or Ciney Speciale. If you're into Lambics; Mort Subite, Belle-Vue and Timmermans are good choices. Try to find Mort Subite Cassis Lambic for a real treat. Might be a good way at getting an authentic Bruxelles yeast culture anyway. Enjoy! heubs Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:31:24 +0000 From: "Stuart E. Strand" <sstrand at saul.u.washington.edu> Subject: re: aeration filtration Whether or not one considers it necessary, it is _easy_ to filter virtually all bacteria from the air stream produced by an aquarium pump. We do it all the time in my lab, growing pure culture suspensions of bacteria under conditions much more likely to lead to contamination than in batch fermentation of beer: neutral pH, no hop oils, complex media, and continuous operation for weeks with continuous aeration. The methods we use are simple, possible to duplicate at home, and known at least since the 1940s. How do we do it? The same way some brewers do, with a fiber-filled filter. Simply construct a wide spot in your air line with a constriction on the fermenter side and stuff it full of cotton or, preferably, glass wool (glass wool is like fiberglass fiber and does not absorb water as easily as cotton fibers). In the lab we use discarded 5-20 mL volumetric pipettes. We cut the glass tubing about an inch on both sides of the bulb of the pipette, then stuff the glass wool in a little at a time with a wire or rod. However, any heat-stable tubing will do. Sterilize it and the tubing going to the fermenter by processing it in a pressure cooker for 15-20 min. You want to keep the moisture out, so keep the filter out of the water. Note that plastic syringes will melt in a pressure cooker and PVC tubing will become temporarily soft. A heat stable filter would be easy to put together out of copper tubing and a couple of reducers. By the way, in my opinion, the most likely source of contamination in aeration is not the air, but the tubing walls. Unless the tubing is well sterilized the pulsing action of an aquarium pump will result in transport of some wort aerosol up the tubing walls where it can support the growth of the worst kind of bacteria and wild yeasts (those adapted to the acidic wort). So reusing a filter without sterilizing or using tank oxygen without filtering or at least sterilizing the tubing (but what about the regulator?) may be asking for eventual trouble. Stuart Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:16:51 EST From: "Rich Byrnes USAET(UTC -05:00)" <rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com> Subject: Chicago-Celis, apologies Greetings all, I'll be headed to Chicago soon for the Sailboat Show, taking the L from the airport to show and back, could any fine Chicago citizens let me know if there is anywhere within walking distance of the show that I could find Celis for sail (oops, sale). I truly miss their fine beers and still haven't tried their Dubble. Also, sorry for the no message posts of late, something going on with my server and the digest, same reason this post may show up as dubble spaced to some of you :-) Regards, Rich Byrnes: President Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen \\\|/// Now serving number 120 o000_(.) (.)_000o rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com (_) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:33:59 -0600 From: rjlee at mmm.com Subject: Cloride sanitizers Chris North sez in HBD#2326 (others have said the same thing): >NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ever put bleach in a stainless container. Even if you >do, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ever do it hot. Now, this seems to be the common wisdom for years here on the HBD, but the other side of the empirical coin is this: *THE* standard sanitizing method for the entire dairy industry (at least in Wisconsin) is a bleach rinse at 100F to 110F for 10 to 20 min (150ppm), 2 times a day in pipelines and every other day in tanks for decades on end. They do by state law here... So what gives? rjl Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:45:56 -0800 From: Louis Gordon <lgordon at pclink.com> Subject: Re: No Head Daniel Lanicek Says: <<I am having a perplexing problem! My last two batches (a brown ale and a porter) have had very little carbonation. There is no head, a very little fiss when you pop open a bottle, and it tastes a little flat. The perplexing part is that I prime the beer the exact same way at least a dozen times and have never had this problem before. I use 3/4 cup of corn sugar and boil it in a cup of water for 10 minutes. Then add it to the bottling bucket when racking 5 gallons of beer. Can someone give me a clue? Is there a way to recarbonate the flat beer I have now?>> A potential problem in winter is that the bottles are too cold for the yeast to get to work. If this is the problem, just warm up the bottles for a week and you should be carbonated. Louis Gordon Minneapolis Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:45:36 -0500 From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at cam.org> Subject: re: No Head! (Uncanny) > Daniel Louis Lanicek <daniell at jove.acs.unt.edu> wrote: > I am having a perplexing problem! My last two batches (a brown ale > and a porter) have had very little carbonation. There is no head, a very > little fiss when you pop open a bottle, and it tastes a little flat. The > perplexing part is that I prime the beer the exact same way at least a > dozen times and have never had this problem before. This is uncanny. I have made 30 some batches of bottle conditioned beer over the past two years and I have never had problems with carbonation except for two batches; a dark brown ale, and a dry stout! Is this a coincidence? Could the roasted/black malt have an adverse effect on carbonation? I often use an ounce of black malt at the end of my mashes to help clear my beer, this works with light pilsners as well. I got the tip from Papazian's second book. If I understand correctly, the black malt attracts some of the haze forming protein and keeps them from ending up in your wort. Could these dark beers been "stipped" of too much of their head forming proteins? Those of you who have had success brewing Brown Ales, Porters and Stouts, do you usually use more sugar to carbonate those beers? Denis Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:40:01 +0000 From: "John R. Bowen" <jbowen at primary.net> Subject: Re: Mint Stout( HBD#2327 ) Jim Moncsko asks about mint: > I was thinking about the mint cake > > flavoring avail at supermarkets or maybe a cream de mint extract. Anybody > > have any ideas or tried this before? I've never tried mint flavoring, but for the less adverterous, Hoptech (www.hoptech.com) describes U.S. Perle hops as "a medium alpha hop with a very clean, almost minty bitterness....". --John Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:56:10 -0500 (EST) From: ir358 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John Goldthwaite) Subject: Weizen yeast Seems I saw Al K. ask about this recently. I have used the wyeast only. I tried the 3056 Bavarian wheat and got heavy duty banana. I did try this 4 or 5 times and always got lots of banana and not much clove. As I have come to understand this could be due to the fermentation temp. I cool to 65 to pitch and fermented at same. To much for me. I think I'm like Charlie P. I just don't care for that taste. The clove I can handle, but banana in beer? Maybe try even lower temps for this one. I do have some of the 3068 Weihenstephan that a buddy passed on to me but have yet to try it. I think this one has the better clove-y flavor and is the authentic German yeast. Give that one a try and keep the temps down. Lest ye have banana cream pie beer. The banana esters seemed to dissapate with time. After 2-3 months in the bottle my DunkelWeizenbock was tolerable. I'll ring in again after trying the Weihenstephan. John Goldthwaite - -- "If my words did glow, with the gold of sunshine...(Garcia/Hunter) Return to table of contents
Date: 27 Jan 97 12:18:21 EST From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM> Subject: Ponderous stuff Brewsters: Jim Liddl in trying to avoid WAGs included some results of oxygenation research. Thanks. It confirmed that oxygen only lasts a few minutes (frm M&BS) to a few hours in a wort and that lipid formation is only a small portion of the oxygen consumed - 20 % if I understand the article. I am still having trouble with the fact that oxygen is so short lived in the wort but appears to have an effect on the entire fermentation. In my mind this argues that oxygen is performing in a catalytic role somehow. I have suggested that it is somehow modifying the yeast in existence at oxygenation time, but can't obviously modify new cells generated during the fermentation. In this speculation it is the un-oxygenated yeast which produce the esters. Can anyone comment on when ester formation begins to be evident? Is it at the beginning or end of the fermentation? - ------------------------------------------------------ Dion Hollenbeck's advice to depend on the relief valve to protect the keg of beer from getting over pressured is not a good way to operate IMHO. If your keg doesn't have a relief valve in the lid or it is damaged somehow, buy one and install it, but don't depend on it. The working pressure Dion quotes is on *new* kegs, but that's not what we use. We use kegs that have been heavily used and rejected by the soda industry, in some cases. Also, the hydrometer is an "approximate" measurement of the sugar content not an "accurate" one and difficult to use, at best, in fermenting beer. Only if you know the final gravity accurately ( which you can't at the time of measurement) will the SG give you a good value of fermentable sugar. That's why I use Clinitest at the end of the primary fermentation. Bubbles don't bother it and it measures reducible sugars only, which is an excellent approximation (and maybe an accurate measure) of the fermentable sugar content at that point in the fermentation. Most of the time you can go along as Dion suggests and if you have a bubbler going to atmosphere - no problem. But if you have a stuck fermentation or other weird event and don't have a reliable measure of the fermentable sugar content or ignore the measurement and you seal up the keg, you may end up with an over-carbonated secondary or worse. - -------------------------------------------------------- Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Voice e-mail OK Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:41:19 -0800 From: "Brander Roullett (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com> Subject: Badger's Sea Foam Pale Ale I kegged for the first time this last week, it was a dashing bold adventure, filled with Chills, Spills, and Lotsa FOAM! ACk! I kegged to a 3 gallon keg my Pale Ale, and put it to 15-20 to seat the head, put it in the fridge to chill, next day i pulled it out, put it on 20 psi, and shook the &*(*& out of it for about 15 min. then i put it back in the fridge. the day before the party i pulled it out, released pressure, put it to serving pressure (5psi) and tried a glass, and all igot was FOAM! after about 8-10 glasses, and a nice buzz from testing different settings of pressure i gave up. (i couldn't drink anymore, i also thought for sure i had only had a couple of glasses, boy was i wrong.) The foam would settle out into a decent glass of beer so it wasn't a total loss but it sure was discouraging. when dispensing the tap line was full of foam, and started there. What did i do wrong? can anyone tell from my description? Brander Roullett(a-branro) aka Badger http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/ For a quart of ale is a dish for a king. -William Shakespeare Return to table of contents
Date: 27 Jan 97 13:07:28 EDT From: Bob Bessette/PicTel <Bob_Bessette at smtpnotes.pictel.com> Subject: Results from Formerly Depressed Brewer Fellow Brewers, I am a happy man. Why? Because I have successfully brewed a batch of beer with no inkling of infection. For those of you who have not followed my tribulations, I am an all-grain brewer who has run into a major infection problem within the past year with approximately 7 out of my last 10 batches being infected. I had solicited the advice of my fellow brewers within this forum and received much good advice that has appeared to have paid off. What I have basically done is re-examined the whole process of how I am making beer especially as it pertains to the sanitation aspect. One thing that I realized that could have very definitely been a source of infection was that I was treating my well water as something that could not introduce infection. So what I was doing was rinsing various utensils,etc with my well tap water and putting them into my already chilled wort. I happen to think that this could've been the major contributor to my infections. What was suggested by many a brewer was to either pre-boil my well water and rinse with this or rinse with a sanitation agent such as iodophor. I chose to go the iodophor route. I purchased something called BTF which was sold in my homebrew store. Iodophor is an iodine-based sanitizing agent and the prescribed volumes are 1 TBSP added to 5 gallons of water. I went out and bought a fairly large plastic container at Walmart and fill it with 5 gallons of water into which the iodophor is added. I simply set this on my kitchen table and sanitize any of my brewing utensils with it such as spoons, air locks, spigots, bottle fillers, hoses, racking canes, etc. Anything that comes into contact with my beer after it has been chilled. What I typically do is first fill my primary or secondary carboy with the water and iodophor and then transfer to my plastic container. I let the carboy drip dry prior to moving my beer into it. What was also suggested to me was to fill a spray bottle with the same iodophor solution and spray it on surfaces, etc that could come into contact with any of these utensils. Also, after brewing I rinse my hoses,etc with the iodophor and I store all of my utensils in the plastic container that I had the iodphor in, after I have emptied the 5 gallons out of course. This prevents any dust,etc from getting at my utensils in-between brewing. I also used the iodphor in my bottling process. I made it a point to sanitize my bottles prior to bottling. I also started keeping my bottles in a bleach solution in a large plastic trash bucket. I would rinse the bottles thoroughly prior to sanitizing them with the iodophor solution. After iodophor-ing I would put them in a bottle rack to let them drip dry. Doing this took a little more time than usual but it gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling that these bottles were clean. I also sanitized the bottle caps prior to bottling as well. In addition to the iodophor I also changed my bottling bucket spigot and also made sure to soak and rinse with iodophor after each bottling session. Crud can accumulate on the inside of the spigot if not rinsed and sanitized after use. One thing that was stressed to me was that iodophor is a sanitizing agent, not a cleaner. I use B-Bright on my carboys after use as well as on anything that needs cleaning. Iodophor should only be used on clean surfaces. I guess re-examining my whole brewing process was a necessary evil. It has resulted in a batch of beer that is reminiscent of my earlier batches as an all-grain brewer. I have renewed faith in the brewing process and am excited to now start thinking about modifying my hop and grain bills rather than worrying about how to prevent my next infection. I will continue to utilize this sanitation process and want to thank all of my fellow brewers who helped me. In thanks I will heartily hoist a few in your honor. Thank you for giving me the passion for homebrewing back! Cheers, Bob Bessette Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:35:20 -0500 From: mcnallyg at in83b.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff) Subject: Thanks Pat!/idophor stains/acids and copper Hi All, I too would like to publicly thank Pat Babcock and company for bringing back the old and improved HBD. Thanks !! Now on to brewing related stuff. Does anyone use some type of clear flexible tubing that does not get stained by idophor? Since switching from bleach to idophor a while ago I've noticed that some plastics get stained and some don't. The vinyl tubing that I use for racking etc tends to get sticky feeling and also smells like idophor in addition to getting stained. The smell does'nt seem to get passed on to the brew, but if possible I'd like to avoid the staining altogether. With the recent responses to Al K.'s post about using acids (HCL, nitric, phosphoric) for removing beerstone, I've got another question. Will any, or all, of these acids harm copper (drain tubing, manifolds, etc) that may also get exposed to the acid? Hoppy brewing, Jeff ============================================================================== Geoffrey A. McNally Phone: (401) 841-7210 x152 Mechanical Engineer Fax: (401) 841-7250 Launcher Technology & Analysis Branch email: mcnallyg at in83b.npt.nuwc.navy.mil Naval Undersea Warfare Center Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2 Newport, RI 02841-1708 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 12:57:00 PST From: "Toler, Duffy L." <TOLERD at cdnet.cod.edu> Subject: Making and Packaging of Root Beer (Duffy Toler) I thought I would throw in my $.02 on the to bottle or not to bottle root beer (RB) thread. Bottling requires you to either, 1) Naturally carbonate 2) own a Counterpressure bottle filler of some sort I haven't been happy with the results of natural carbonation, and the added concerns of adding however moderate amount of alcohol to a "soft drink", creating bottle bombs, waiting for them to carbonate, sanitizing all the bottles, etc... Makes me want to go the artificial route. (with the carbonation that is) A bottling bucket really sucks up the RB aroma too! If you use a CP filler, still have the problem of your kegs, and now your filler smelling like RB. Ergo.... I make up one batch at a time, in 2L PET bottles and carbonate using a Carbonator Cap (tm). You can easily throw out the bottle when you are done reusing it. This is clean, immediate and easy. Sanitation won't be a concern due to how quickly it will be gone. No muss, no fuss. I like to add a bit (1/2 cup in 2L) of malto-dextrin for body and a touch of vanilla for complexity. YMMV Happy brewing! Duffy Toler Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:52:18 -0500 (EST) From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com> Subject: First all-grain If a person messed up the temperature steps (which i did) and screwed up the sparge (which i did) and didn't test for conversion (didn't even think about it, Dooooohhhh!) and suspected that lots of starch ended up in the fermenter. Would the specfic gravity be affected by it? Or is specfic gravity only a measure of sugar content? _________________________________________________________________________ Arnold J. Neitzke Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:26:37 -0800 From: smurman at best.com Subject: fancy siphon/Whitbread clone/acronyms I've been thinking about putting together a new racking cane for transfering from my brew pot to the primary. I saw an article at Michael Jackson's web site (great site BTW) that describes a siphon/filter that encircles the outside bottom of the brew pot, and has a number of holes drilled in it (http://www.beerhunter.com/archive/index.html Issue 25). Has anyone tried this? My main concern is clogging. The basic idea is to whirlpool so the grit goes to the middle, then siphon from the edges, but there's a big difference between theory and practice. I prefer using whole hops, but every once in a while I have to filter pellet material. // Switching gears, I've also been toying with trying to clone Whitbread. I can guess to use a British pale ale malt and the whitbread yeast, but after that I'm open to suggestions. The taste to me seems very sweet, and what's served at our local pub is usually fairly cloudy (second-hand smoke not withstanding). I'm figuring a low-middle hoppiness with no dry-hopping, and a typical English hop like EKG. The adjunct to me tastes like a very sweet crystal, but like I said, I'm open to suggestions. // I still have the acronym list, but in the interest of saving space I placed it on my web server. http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy/acronym.html. It seems there are a lot of new brewers on the list, so posting it directly may be helpful, but I don't want to waste bandwidth. Cheers, SM Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:29:38 -0500 From: Tim Martin <TimM at southwest.cc.nc.us> Subject: London Ale 1028 Hot/Cold Break Confusion Hey Neighbors, On Monday, (King's Holiday) I mashed eight lbs. Marris Otter pale ale and pitched London ale 1028 yeast that I had frozen for nine months in the freezer. The fermentation has been great and I should be able to bottle this weekend. The yeast was saved from my last batch last year and the brew was real dark so I didn't get to observe the fermentation process in my carboy like this batch. On this batch it appears that there is about a half inch of white powdery yeast on the bottom layer and on top of this layer of material and this is where I get a little confused. I assume this layer is trub or cold break, it looks like crumbled Feta cheese but it's not white but a little off white, a little tan color to it and the layer is about a half inch thick. Occasionally a chunk will break off and slowly float to the surface and then another one on the surface will slowly float to the bottom. When I transferred the wort from my boiler to the carboy after about an hour I noticed a two inch layer of this white fluffy material about two inched thick on the bottom. I understand this is common and I'm not alarmed about this but I'm still confused as to the difference between the appearance of hot and cold break. I'm assuming this is cold break. I also assume that during the primary fermintation this white fluffy material is then condensed into the Feta cheese looking material in my carboy. What is going on here? I use a home made EZ masher in my kettle, except my diameter is larger and the screen is finer and I even tried the "no agitation" method with my immersion chiller suspended under the surface of the wort and I still get this white material in my carboy. Perhaps David Burley is on to something when he said a screen will break apart the cold break when you empty the kettle. By the way, what the hell does a "planispiral chiller" look like, is there a link to a photo somewhere? If I may elaborate a little more on this hot/cold break subject. Could someone please explain (in right brain terms) what is going on in my boiler when my wort first comes to a boil for the first five to ten minutes? I get this huge layer of foam in my ten gallon kettle and it remain there nearing boil over until it finally collapses, at this point I add my hops, lower the heat and continue the boil. Now, I notice riding on top of the foam is a brown material, usually near the edge of the kettle, is this the hot break or is all the foam the hot break. As an experiment on this last batch I cranked the propane burner up during the last 15 minutes of the boil and to my amazement the foam returned. Is this still more hot break or was this a reaction from the hops (hop break)? Last question 8^). How much is a rolling boil? Until the boil starts making noise from the breaking bubbles (this seems to vigorous to me) or until the rolling bubbles are just disturbing the surface of the wort (my usual method). It seems like there are physical, chemical or whatever changes taking place with my wort during the boil that I would like to get a better grip on. Thanks to C.D. Pritchard for helping me freeze and then revive my yeast, it's an exciting event to wake those little buggers up from their frozen world and put them to work and a great big QUACK, QUACK, QUACK to all the homebrew shops that told me I can't freeze yeast. Thanks to Pat, Karl and others responsible for the new home. Thanks In Advance Tim Martin Buzzard's Roost Homebrewery "with that strong predatory taste" Cullowhee, NC Return to table of contents