---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  O2 / Geuze, / carbonation (Ed & Laura Hitchcock)
  Freshman Digest (The Holders)
  drilling SS & yeast starters (Sharon/Dan Ritter)
  How much Mg is too much? (Jeff Renner)
  gueze (Jeff Sturman)
  bottles (funkyj)
  Crisp Malt/stuck sparge (Mike Dowd)
  temp? (Stephen Jordan)
  Lacking Carbonation in a Batch of fake "Celebration" (Robin Watson)
  Mashing Below 149 F (Kyle Druey)
  Assistant Brewer position open ("E. Darren Ellis")
  Temperature measurement, etc. (Bruce Baker)
  Weizen yeasts, wire trivets ("John L. Heubel")
  Trappist Ales ("John L. Heubel")
  re:  aeration filtration ("Stuart E. Strand")
  Chicago-Celis, apologies (UTC -05:00)" <rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com>
  Cloride sanitizers (rjlee)
  Re: No Head (Louis Gordon)
  re: No Head! (Uncanny) (Denis Barsalo)
  Re: Mint Stout( HBD#2327 ) ("John R. Bowen")
  Weizen yeast (John Goldthwaite)
  Ponderous stuff ("David R. Burley")
  Badger's Sea Foam Pale Ale (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
  Results from Formerly Depressed Brewer (Bob Bessette/PicTel)
  Thanks Pat!/idophor stains/acids and copper (Jeff)
  Making and Packaging of Root Beer (Duffy Toler) ("Toler, Duffy L.")
  First all-grain (AJN)
  fancy siphon/Whitbread clone/acronyms (smurman)
  London Ale 1028 Hot/Cold Break Confusion (Tim Martin)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:23:34 -0500
From: Ed & Laura Hitchcock <ehitchcock at oise.utoronto.ca>
Subject: O2 / Geuze, / carbonation

Dave Burley raises some very interesting point for discussion.  Just to
throw some more fuel on the fire, may I suggest that the rate of uptake
of O2 may not be linear with concentration?  If the relationship is,
say, exponential, then at 8 ppm the uptake would be 4 times as fast as
at 4 ppm, or 16 times as fast as at 2 ppm.  Thus while concentrations
are high, *much* more O2 can be taken up per cell before budding,
meaning the yeast can cycle through several more generations before the
"protective" effects of whatever the oxygen does is diminished.  This is
of course pure speculation, but what do you think?

	***

>> We have some home brew riding on this one:  How do you pronounce Gueuze?
>> (blended lambic beer)
> 
>Its 'gerz' sort of a growl with a 'z' at the end.
>(an american 'z' sound, not 'zed').

	In the french part it's pronounced "geuz" with the eu sound the same as
the french "deux" (two).  In the flemmish part it's "cheu-tsa" with the
ch sound like "chanakah", the throat-clearing germanic g.  Michael
Jackson suggests thinking of the word "cursor", but think of it with a
british accent (the way MJ would say it).

	***

John W. Carpenter responds to my post:

>>        I think this is the key.  Filtered beer definitely has fewer proteins
>>in solution, and has larger bubbles and poor head retention.
>
>How can you say definitely? Look at Guinness. It's been filtered and it has a 
>great head! Don't you agree?

	Oh indeed I do.  Bad choice of words on my part, should have read
"poorer" head, but that sounds terrible.  But the example given was
filtered Budmilloors vs bottle conditioned homebrew.  Don't you think
filtration has something to do with it?

	As for how filters can remove particles smaller than the pore size,
what do you think happens to the filters when you start running beer
though them?  Think about straining the dregs of wort and pelletized
hops through a sieve - it just gums up, even though there are plenty of
small particles that could easilly fit through.  Or think of sparging
and lautering, you get clear runoff from large slots of holes in the
manifold.  Yeast cells, large proteins and other suspended junk will act
as a filter bed, reducing effective pore size, increasing filtration.

	Cheers.
	ed


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Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:25:33 -0800
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: Freshman Digest

In # 2325, Al K says:

>I mean, as much as I like to help out and answer beginners' 
questions, if not for the discussions of planispiral chillers,
beerstone removal,and anthocyanogens, I don't know if it could
keep my interest. 

I think the whole point, Al, is that some people want to talk on their
own level, and aren't concerned with your interest.

Not everyone is a Ph.D., or Chemist, or Metallurgist. Some ordinary
people
want to have ordinary talk about ordinary things.

I use the 'page down' extensively on many posts, and would probably
subscribe to both digests. I'm no expert, hell, I don't even play one 
on TV, but I do like to brew, but not in the ethereal plane.

Wayne Holder
Long Beach CA
"Home of the Toob(tm)"
- -- 
"contrary to my own opinions, I'm NOT always correct....
at least that's what I think..."

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Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:30:33 -0800
From: Sharon/Dan Ritter <ritter at camasnet.com>
Subject: drilling SS & yeast starters

Many thanks to everyone that responded to my post about drilling stainless
steel.  If you would like a compilation of the responses, send me a note
via private e-mail.

Lately there has been some discussion about yeast starters.  A few years
ago, there was a series of threads about the different effects of using
malt extract vs. runnings from all grain batches for starters.  When I
first started stepping up my yeast from smack-packs I noticed that when
pitching the yeast into starter wort made from DME I got sluggish starts
and lethargic yeast activity (despite adequate aeration and the use of
yeast nutrients).  When I switched to using all-grain starters I was amazed
at the difference - vigorous activity, shorter lag times, big krausen!
Since then, I have used all-grain runnings for my starters.  About once
every six months I throw together a batch (~1.040 SG) of whatever misc.
grains I have lying around.  I boil as usual, add hops to lower the pH
(this is my precaution against botulism - am I kidding myself?), and can it
in quart and pint jars using a boiling water bath.   There was a long
discussion about the chemistry of this malt extract vs. all-grain wort
difference that I have since forgot (old age!).



Dan Ritter <ritter at camasnet.com>
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery
Grangeville, Idaho



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Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:52:17 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: How much Mg is too much?

In the new, old and unimproved, HBD (Hooray!) 2325, AlK says

>Furthermore, watch the Mg levels... too
>much will give you the runs.

How much Mg is too much here?  Brewers are going to keep it to well under
100ppm, I'd think.  Foster (_Pale Ale_) gives 50-60ppm for Burton water.
That's hardly "a dose of salts."  Surely you'd have a lot of water drinking
folks in Burton-on-Trent with the trots if that level were a problem.  I
suspect it would take many 100s if not 1000 ppm Mg for GI effects.  Any
pharmacists care to address this?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu



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Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:42:56 -0700
From: Jeff Sturman <brewshop at coffey.com>
Subject: gueze

Thanks to the many people who emailed me their best guesses at the
pronunciation of Gueze.  Problem is, I got about a dozen different answers:

gooze
gayrz
garz
gayz
gwayz
gertzer
goez
goo-ez
etc, etc

Many people commented that the word wil indeed be pronounced differently in
different parts of the world.  M. Jackson (in the New World Guide to Beer)
says the closest English word would be 'cursor'. ??  I won the bet, I
estimated gayz, the other guy swore it was gize (guys).  What an
ignaramous.  :)

jeff
casper, wy



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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:01:22 +1100
From: funkyj <Falzo at speednet.com.au>
Subject: bottles

hi,
   i am a newbie at beer brewing and i live in australia (congrats to
hingis !!), sydney. i was wondering could you use 750ml twist tops to
bottle beer... or would it be better to use non-twist... also would it
be possible to use Coke bottles/PET's (plastic) for bottling beer ...
would anyone in sydney know what beer comes in non-twist tops.



all help greatly appreciated,


Paul G falzon...
(i am brewing now)

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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 02:11:37 -0500
From: mikedowd at geocities.com (Mike Dowd)
Subject: Crisp Malt/stuck sparge

Hmm.  I tried to send this a few days ago, but I think things got screwed
up when the address changed, so here it is again.

Alex writes:
> Sorry, it wasn't my intention to hurt your pride. You had asked for
> suggestions and it's hard for anyone who hasn't got the stuff in their
> hands to say, "Don't worry Mike, you just got a bad batch of grain." I
> didn't think many bad batches of grain got around, and the other likely
> alternative was procedural."

Don't worry Alex, my pride is unwounded.  What I objected to in your post
was not that you were telling me my procedures were bad, but that you were
doing so without explaining why.

_Why_ is my technique not well suited to my equipment?

_Why_ would resting at 104F have a negative impact on sparging?

_Why_ would a thick mash during saccrification but not during
     mashout/lautering make for difficulties during lautering?

If you (or anyone else) have answers to any of these questions, I would
definitely like to hear them -- I'm not just looking for people to tell me
what I want to hear.  What I'm really trying to figure out is _why_ this
happened.  I certainly appreciate the replies I have gotten -- there were
several times in the past when I wrote into the HBD with what seemed to me
like interesting topics, but never heard a peep from anyone else;
meanwhile, there seemed to be 53 posts every day on the "Beer in Space"
thread. (Note: this is not, repeat _not_, an invitation to restart the Beer
in Space thread.  If it is finally dead, let it stay that way, please.)
But if you write in attacking a man's technique, you can't expect him not
to defend himself.  ;)

In reply to your questions, there is no difference between the Crisp malt
and any other pale ale malt in the way it feels, tastes, or looks.  There
may be a way for me to get it analyzed it further -- I will check into it,
and if I can find a way, I will report back.

Mike

Michael Dowd                       Whoever makes a poor beer is transferred
Yeastie Boy Brewing               to the dung-hill.
Pittsburgh, PA
mikedowd at geocities.com         -Edict, City of Danzig, 11th Century



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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:21:01 -0500
From: Stephen Jordan <komusubi at together.net>
Subject: temp?

I just brewed a IPA yesterday and have it in a glass 6 gal carboy in
basement.
My question is about temp. of the carboy. I have a stick on thermometer
on the side and it is reading 76-78 F.. Is this okay

Email reply ok , komusubi at together.net

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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:46:56 +0000
From: Robin Watson <RobinWatson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Lacking Carbonation in a Batch of fake "Celebration"

I have had this very promising batch of fake Sierra Nevada Celebration in
bottles for about 10 days.  My first attempt to sample a bottle was
disappointing.  The beer was very flat--hardly any carbonation.  I was
afraid it might not be sealed, but had the same experience with the second
bottle.  Why do you suppose it isn't carbonating?

Background:  This is an all grain batch.  I racked it to a secondary after a
week.  I dry hopped with an ounce of Cascades plugs for about 10 days and
then racked it a second time to let it settle.  It was still fermenting very
slowly--maybe one bubble every 5-10 minutes--when I bottled it.  I added a
cup and a half of dry malt extract boiled in water for fermentation in the
bottle.  I cooled the mix before mixing in the bottling bucket.  Is there a
problem or haven't I waited long enough?   I don't think it is infected.  It
has no hint of an infected taste and I was meticulous about sanitation.
I've thought about reopening all of the bottles and dosing each with a shot
of dissolved sugar, but that's a last resort.

        I'd hate to lose this promising batch of "Celebration" but I would
particularly like to find out if I have fouled up the fundamentals before I
do another batch.

Thanks.   


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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:37:43 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <kdldmd at lightspeed.net>
Subject: Mashing Below 149 F

This was posted a few days ago:

> From: DENNIS WALTMAN <PDWALTMAN at sablaw.com>
> Subject: Long rest at 140 and other errors
> The temp was at or around 140.
> By this time we suspected our thermometers and were using three
> (140F, 142F, 140F).
> What did the rest at 140 F for nearly 90 minutes do to the beer?

Does anyone else have experience mashing below 149 F?  I have had good
results as low 146 F, but have been too chicken to go lower than that.
Some popular homebrew references mention that the lowest sacharification
temperature is 149 F (Noonan, Miller, Line) because it is said that 
starch does not fully galatinize until 149 F.  However, I know that Fix 
has listed the starch gelatinization temp at 131 F to 149 F, and that the 
apparent attenuation of wort produced by a mash at 140 F is 76.1%.  

Does anyone else have experience mashing between 140 F to 149 F, and 
references regarding this.


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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:10:08 -0500 (EST)
From: "E. Darren Ellis" <dellis at utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
Subject: Assistant Brewer position open

I'm posting this for a friend who isn't on-line, please direct any
questions/comments to him at the number listed.  Thanks!

	Assistant brewer wanted for new microbrewery in East Tennessee.
Would prefer all-grain homebrewer for position.  Job starts in June 1997,
must be willing to relocate.  Salary negotiable.  Please contact Ron
Downer at (423) 523-4615 for further information or send your resume
to:
	Ron Downer
	4955 Ball Camp Pike
	Knoxville, Tn. 37921


- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
E. Darren Ellis		http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~dellis/Darren.htm
			Dellis at utkux.utcc.utk.edu
			Darren at utknp3.phys.utk.edu 
			 Ellis at dirac.physics.jmu.edu
			 Ellis at cebaf.gov

University of Tennessee / Dept. of Physics     /       Fax: (423) 974-7843
Physics Bldg.	        / Knoxville, TN. 37996 / Telephone: (423) 974-3342
2900 Rennoc Rd.		/ Knoxville, TN. 37918 /	    (423) 281-9521
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:57:54 +1300
From: Bruce Baker <Bruce.E.Baker at tsy.treasury.govt.nz>
Subject: Temperature measurement, etc.

G'day y'all,

Dave Miller and others recommend using a stiff mash in order to get maximum 
enzyme activity.  However, I have found that a stiff mash makes it nearly 
impossible to get an accurate temperature reading.  I go for a fairly loose 
mash, and even so find that the temperature can vary as much as ten degrees 
from spot to spot within the pot when I'm raising the temperature.  How on 
earth can you get an accurate temperature in a stiff mash?

On an unrelated topic, here's a tip I discovered.  In order to prevent 
scorching on an electric stove, put a piece of metal with legs on it inside the 
pot.  That way, your grain bag (assuming you use one) can sit on the false 
bottom without scorching.  I use a piece of stamped metal designed to keep pot 
roasts from sticking to the bottom of the pan for this purpose.

Also a tip from the BBQ list: if you buy one of those new-fangled digital 
thermometers, beware that they are not waterproof.  Make sure you don't 
submerge the braided part of the lead in water (or beer).  I did this and got 
some bizarre readings.

Cheers,
Bruce 


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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:29:30 -0600
From: "John L. Heubel" <jlheubel at wf.net>
Subject: Weizen yeasts, wire trivets

Been lurking around the HBD for awhile and finally got caught up for a
timely response:

Gavin Scarman writes:
<SNIP>
I have been using Yeast Labs W51 at various temperatures trying to get 
those clove-like phenols and banana esters. They are there but very, very
faint. Has anyone any hope to offer me in Wyeast weihenstephan?

I've been using Wyeast #3068 Weihenstephan exclusively for my Weizenbiers
for the past 3 years and have been very happy with the results.  Fermenting
at 64-68 F produces plenty of phenolics. I have heard that the new #3333?
is also good but with reduced levels of phenolics. 

David Conger writes in HBD v2 #42 
3.  I've read that the heat distribution from an electric stove can be
improved (less scorching) by elevating the brewpot slightly above the
burner with a wire trivet. Can anyone tell me more about this? I'm curious
as to where I could find a trivet or how to make one from a coat hanger.
How much separation should it put between the pot and burner?

I don't use the wire hanger method but on that works very well. I had some
ceramic bathroom tiles leftover (4 1/4" square x 3/16 thick).  Cut some of
them apart so they'd fit better on top of the stove.  I make a stack three
tiles thick and place three piles of them spaced evenly around the burner
plate.  This keeps my brewpot approx 1/8" above the heating elements and
prevents overheating the stove, scorching and enables a cover-off,
full-rolling boil since the whole element glows bright red.  I've recently
purchased a propane cooker but it's still a little cold to go outside for
the brewing.  Hope this helps.

heubs




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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:10:34 -0600
From: "John L. Heubel" <jlheubel at wf.net>
Subject: Trappist Ales

Rich Moore writes:
I happen to find myself in Barcelona, Spain for a few days.  My first 
night out, I managed to find a little bar who specializes in Belgian beer. 
 (Isn't it amazing how we can home in on places like this....) They have 
about a hundred varieties.  What I would like to know is, what are the six 
Trappist breweries of Belgium, and the names of the beers they make?  I 
know Chimay and Orval, but can't remember the rest.  I feel certain that 
they have 'em all.

	Here's the brewing tie in - I plan to take yeast samples, and I need to 
know which beers to get.  Also, besides the 'big six', what others would 
you want to get if you had the chance.  I have a limit of about 12 total 
samples.
<SNIP> 

There's actually only 5 Trappists still in Belgium they are:
	Orval , Chimay , Rochefort , Westmalle , Westvletteren
All are excellent. I was stationed at Spangdahlem AB for 3 years (45 min
from Belgium) and was able to sample many (got to love their grocery
stores).  I believe the Westvletteren is sold under the St. Bernardus label
but am not positive about that.  Anyway, each makes several strengths and
probably (speculation) use the same yeast for all (in-house, not between
breweries). I'm torn between Rochefort and Westmalle for which I feel is
best.  So there's 5.  Other great abbey-style beers are Affligem, 
Maredsous, Steenbrugge, and Tongerlo. That makes 9. you could go for some
of the Cat. S beers like La Biere Du Demon, De Verboden Vrucht, Bush Beer,
Kwak, Het Elfde Gebod or Lucifer OR if you're into any Belgian style, I'd
suggest trying Hoegaarden or Rodenbach Grand Cru, Dentergems Wit or Ciney
Speciale. If you're into Lambics;  Mort Subite, Belle-Vue and Timmermans
are good choices.  Try to find Mort Subite Cassis Lambic for a real treat.
Might be a good way at getting an authentic Bruxelles yeast culture anyway.
 Enjoy!

heubs

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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:31:24 +0000
From: "Stuart E. Strand" <sstrand at saul.u.washington.edu>
Subject: re:  aeration filtration

Whether or not one considers it necessary, it is _easy_ to filter
virtually all bacteria from the air stream produced by an aquarium pump.
We do it all the time in my lab, growing pure culture suspensions of
bacteria under conditions much more likely to lead to contamination than
in batch fermentation of beer:  neutral pH, no hop oils, complex media,
and continuous operation for weeks with continuous aeration.  The
methods we use are simple, possible to duplicate at home, and known at
least since the 1940s.

How do we do it?  The same way some brewers do, with a fiber-filled
filter. Simply construct a wide spot in your air line with a
constriction on the fermenter side and stuff it full of cotton or,
preferably, glass wool (glass wool is like fiberglass fiber and does not
absorb water as easily as cotton fibers). In the lab we use discarded
5-20 mL volumetric pipettes.  We cut the glass tubing about an inch on
both sides of the bulb of the pipette, then stuff the glass wool in a
little at a time with a wire or rod. However, any heat-stable tubing
will do. Sterilize it and the tubing going to the fermenter by
processing it in a pressure cooker for 15-20 min.  You want to keep the
moisture out, so keep the filter out of the water.  Note that plastic
syringes will melt in a pressure cooker and PVC tubing will become
temporarily soft.  A heat stable filter would be easy to put together
out of copper tubing and a couple of reducers.

By the way, in my opinion, the most likely source of contamination in
aeration is not the air, but the tubing walls. Unless the tubing is well
sterilized the pulsing action of an aquarium pump will result in
transport of some wort aerosol up the tubing walls where it can support
the growth of the worst kind of bacteria and wild yeasts (those adapted
to the acidic wort). So reusing a filter without sterilizing or using
tank oxygen without filtering or at least sterilizing the tubing (but
what about the regulator?) may be asking for eventual trouble.  

Stuart


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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:16:51 EST
From: "Rich Byrnes USAET(UTC -05:00)" <rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com>
Subject: Chicago-Celis, apologies

Greetings all, I'll be headed to Chicago soon for the Sailboat Show,            
taking the L from the airport to show and back, could any fine Chicago          
citizens let me know if there is anywhere within walking distance of the        
show that I could find Celis for sail (oops, sale).  I truly miss their         
fine beers and still haven't tried their Dubble.                                

Also, sorry for the no message posts of late, something going on with my        
server and the digest, same reason this post may show up as dubble spaced       
to some of you  :-)                                                             

Regards, Rich Byrnes: President                                                 
Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen     \\\|///                          
Now serving number 120                    o000_(.) (.)_000o                     
rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com                         (_)                            


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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:33:59 -0600
From: rjlee at mmm.com
Subject: Cloride sanitizers

Chris North sez in HBD#2326 (others have said the same thing):
>NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ever put bleach in a stainless container.  Even if you
>do, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ever do it hot. 

Now, this seems to be the common wisdom for years here on the HBD, but
the other side of the empirical coin is this: *THE* standard sanitizing
method for the entire dairy industry (at least in Wisconsin) is a bleach
rinse at 100F to 110F for 10 to 20 min (150ppm), 2 times a day in
pipelines and every other day in tanks for decades on end. They do by
state law here...

So what gives?

rjl

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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:45:56 -0800
From: Louis Gordon <lgordon at pclink.com>
Subject: Re: No Head

Daniel Lanicek Says:
 
 <<I am having a perplexing problem! My last two batches (a brown ale
 and a porter) have had very little carbonation. There is no head, a very
 little fiss when you pop open a bottle, and it tastes a little flat. The
 perplexing part is that I prime the beer the exact same way at least a
 dozen times and have never had this problem before.
         I use 3/4 cup of corn sugar and boil it in a cup of water for 10
 minutes. Then add it to the bottling bucket when racking 5 gallons of
 beer. Can someone give me a clue? Is there a way to recarbonate the flat
 beer I have now?>>
 
 A potential problem in winter is that the bottles are too cold for the 
 yeast to get to work. If this is the problem, just warm up the bottles 
 for a week and you should be carbonated.
 
 Louis Gordon      Minneapolis

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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:45:36 -0500
From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at cam.org>
Subject: re: No Head! (Uncanny)

> Daniel Louis Lanicek <daniell at jove.acs.unt.edu> wrote:

>	I am having a perplexing problem! My last two batches (a brown ale
> and a porter) have had very little carbonation. There is no head, a very
> little fiss when you pop open a bottle, and it tastes a little flat. The
> perplexing part is that I prime the beer the exact same way at least a
> dozen times and have never had this problem before.

	This is uncanny. I have made 30 some batches of bottle conditioned
beer over the past two years and I have never had problems with carbonation
except for two batches; a dark brown ale, and a dry stout!
	Is this a coincidence?
	Could the roasted/black malt have an adverse effect on carbonation?
	I often use an ounce of black malt at the end of my mashes to help
clear my beer, this works with light pilsners as well. I got the tip from
Papazian's second book. If I understand correctly, the black malt attracts
some of the haze forming protein and keeps them from ending up in your
wort.
	Could these dark beers been "stipped" of too much of their head
forming proteins?
	Those of you who have had success brewing Brown Ales, Porters and
Stouts, do you usually use more sugar to carbonate those beers?

Denis



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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:40:01 +0000
From: "John R. Bowen" <jbowen at primary.net>
Subject: Re: Mint Stout( HBD#2327 )

Jim Moncsko asks about mint: 
> I was thinking about the mint cake
> > flavoring avail at supermarkets or maybe a cream de mint extract. Anybody
> > have any ideas or tried this before?

I've never tried mint flavoring, but for the less adverterous, Hoptech 
(www.hoptech.com) describes U.S. Perle hops as "a medium alpha hop with 
a very clean, almost minty bitterness....".  --John

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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:56:10 -0500 (EST)
From: ir358 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John Goldthwaite)
Subject: Weizen yeast

Seems I saw Al K. ask about this recently. I have used the wyeast
only. I tried the 3056 Bavarian wheat and got heavy duty banana.
I did try this 4 or 5 times and always got lots of banana and not
much clove. As I have come to understand this could be due to the
fermentation temp. I cool to 65 to pitch and fermented at same.
To much for me. I think I'm like Charlie P. I just don't care for
that taste. The clove I can handle, but banana in beer? Maybe try
even lower temps for this one. I do have some of the 3068 
Weihenstephan that a buddy passed on to me but have yet to try it.
I think this one has the better clove-y flavor and is the authentic
German yeast. Give that one a try and keep the temps down. Lest ye
have banana cream pie beer. The banana esters seemed to dissapate
with time. After 2-3 months in the bottle my DunkelWeizenbock was
tolerable. I'll ring in again after trying the Weihenstephan.
John Goldthwaite

- --
"If my words did glow, with the gold of sunshine...(Garcia/Hunter)

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Date: 27 Jan 97 12:18:21 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Ponderous stuff

Brewsters:

Jim Liddl in trying to avoid WAGs included some results of oxygenation research.
Thanks.  It confirmed that oxygen only lasts a few minutes (frm M&BS) to a few
hours in a wort and that lipid formation is only a small portion of the oxygen
consumed - 20 % if I understand the article.  I am still having trouble with the
fact that oxygen is so short lived in the wort but appears to have an effect on
the entire fermentation. In my mind this  argues that oxygen is performing in a
catalytic role somehow.  I have suggested that it is somehow modifying the yeast
in existence at oxygenation time, but can't obviously modify new cells generated
during the fermentation. In this speculation it is the un-oxygenated yeast which
produce the esters.   Can anyone comment on when ester formation begins to be
evident?  Is it at the beginning or end of the fermentation?
- ------------------------------------------------------
Dion Hollenbeck's advice to depend on the relief valve to protect the keg of
beer from getting over pressured is not a good way to operate IMHO.  If your keg
doesn't have a relief valve in the lid or it is damaged somehow, buy one and
install it, but don't depend on it. The working pressure Dion quotes is on *new*
kegs, but that's not what we use.  We use kegs that have been heavily used and
rejected by the soda industry, in some cases.  Also, the hydrometer is an
"approximate" measurement of the sugar content not an "accurate" one and
difficult to use, at best, in fermenting beer.  Only if you know the final
gravity accurately ( which you can't at the time of measurement) will the SG
give you a good value of fermentable sugar.  That's why I use Clinitest at the
end of the primary fermentation.  Bubbles don't bother it and it measures
reducible sugars only, which is an excellent approximation (and maybe an
accurate measure) of the fermentable sugar content at that point in the
fermentation.

Most of the time you can go along as Dion suggests and if you have a bubbler
going to atmosphere - no problem. But if you have a stuck fermentation or other
weird event and don't have a reliable measure of the fermentable sugar content
or ignore the measurement and you seal up the keg, you may end up with an
over-carbonated secondary or worse.
- --------------------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK


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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:41:19 -0800
From: "Brander Roullett (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Badger's Sea Foam Pale Ale


I kegged for the first time this last week, it was a dashing bold
adventure, filled with Chills, Spills, and Lotsa FOAM!  ACk!  I kegged
to a 3 gallon keg my Pale Ale, and put it to 15-20 to seat the head, put
it in the fridge to chill, next day i pulled it out, put it on 20 psi,
and shook the &*(*& out of it for about 15 min.  then i put it back in
the fridge.  the day before the party i pulled it out, released
pressure, put it to serving pressure (5psi) and tried a glass, and all
igot was FOAM!  after about 8-10 glasses, and a nice buzz from testing
different settings of pressure i gave up.  (i couldn't drink anymore, i
also thought for sure i had only had a couple of glasses, boy was i
wrong.)

The foam would settle out into a decent glass of beer so it wasn't a
total loss but it sure was discouraging.  when dispensing the tap line
was full of foam, and started there.

What did i do wrong?  can anyone tell from my description?


Brander Roullett(a-branro) aka  Badger    
http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/

For a quart of ale is a dish for a king.  -William Shakespeare


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Date: 27 Jan 97 13:07:28 EDT
From: Bob Bessette/PicTel <Bob_Bessette at smtpnotes.pictel.com>
Subject: Results from Formerly Depressed Brewer

Fellow Brewers,
 I am a happy man. Why? Because I have successfully brewed a batch of beer with 
no inkling of infection. For those of you who have not followed my 
tribulations, I am an all-grain brewer who has run into a major infection 
problem within the past year with approximately 7 out of my last 10 batches 
being infected. I had solicited the advice of my fellow brewers within this 
forum and received much good advice that has appeared to have paid off. 

 What I have basically done is re-examined the whole process of how I am making 
beer especially as it pertains to the sanitation aspect. One thing that I 
realized that could have very definitely been a source of infection was that I 
was treating my well water as something that could not introduce infection. So 
what I was doing was rinsing various utensils,etc with my well tap water and 
putting them into my already chilled wort. I happen to think that this could've 
been the major contributor to my infections.

 What was suggested by many a brewer was to either pre-boil my well water and 
rinse with this or rinse with a sanitation agent such as iodophor. I chose to 
go the iodophor route. I purchased something called BTF which was sold in my 
homebrew store. Iodophor is an iodine-based sanitizing agent and the prescribed 
volumes are 1 TBSP added to 5 gallons of water. I went out and bought a fairly 
large plastic container at Walmart and fill it with 5 gallons of water into 
which the iodophor is added. I simply set this on my kitchen table and sanitize 
any of my brewing utensils with it such as spoons, air locks, spigots, bottle 
fillers, hoses, racking canes, etc.  Anything that comes into contact with my 
beer after it has been chilled. What I typically do is first fill my primary or 
secondary carboy with the water and iodophor and then transfer to my plastic 
container. I let the carboy drip dry prior to moving my beer into it. What was 
also suggested to me was to fill a spray bottle with the same iodophor solution 
and spray it on surfaces, etc that could come into contact with any of these 
utensils. Also, after brewing I rinse my hoses,etc with the iodophor and I 
store all of my utensils in the plastic container that I had the iodphor in, 
after I have emptied the 5 gallons out of course. This prevents any dust,etc 
from getting at my utensils in-between brewing.

 I also used the iodphor in my bottling process. I made it a point to sanitize 
my bottles prior to bottling. I also started keeping my bottles in a bleach 
solution in a large plastic trash bucket. I would rinse the bottles thoroughly 
prior to sanitizing them with the iodophor solution. After iodophor-ing I would 
put them in a bottle rack to let them drip dry. Doing this took a little more 
time than usual but it gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling that these bottles were 
clean. I also sanitized the bottle caps prior to bottling as well.

 In addition to the iodophor I also changed my bottling bucket spigot and also 
made sure to soak and rinse with iodophor after each bottling session. Crud can 
accumulate on the inside of the spigot if not rinsed and sanitized after use. 
One thing that was stressed to me was that iodophor is a sanitizing agent, not 
a cleaner. I use B-Bright on my carboys after use as well as on anything that 
needs cleaning. Iodophor should only be used on clean surfaces.

 I guess re-examining my whole brewing process was a necessary evil. It has 
resulted in a batch of beer that is reminiscent of my earlier batches as an 
all-grain brewer. I have renewed faith in the brewing process and am excited to 
now start thinking about modifying my hop and grain bills rather than worrying 
about how to prevent my next infection. I will continue to utilize this 
sanitation process and want to thank all of my fellow brewers who helped me. In 
thanks I will heartily hoist a few in your honor. Thank you for giving me the 
passion for homebrewing back!

Cheers,
Bob Bessette   

 
 

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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:35:20 -0500
From: mcnallyg at in83b.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: Thanks Pat!/idophor stains/acids and copper

Hi All,

  I too would like to publicly thank Pat Babcock and company for bringing
back the old and improved HBD.  Thanks !!

  Now on to brewing related stuff.

  Does anyone use some type of clear flexible tubing that does not get
stained by idophor?  Since switching from bleach to idophor a while ago
I've noticed that some plastics get stained and some don't.  The vinyl
tubing that I use for racking etc tends to get sticky feeling and also
smells like idophor in addition to getting stained.  The smell does'nt
seem to get passed on to the brew, but if possible I'd like to avoid
the staining altogether.

  With the recent responses to Al K.'s post about using acids (HCL,
nitric, phosphoric) for removing beerstone, I've got another question.
Will any, or all, of these acids harm copper (drain tubing, manifolds,
etc) that may also get exposed to the acid?

                                      Hoppy brewing,

                                      Jeff


==============================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                    Phone:  (401) 841-7210 x152
Mechanical Engineer                    Fax:    (401) 841-7250
Launcher Technology & Analysis Branch  email: mcnallyg at in83b.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Naval Undersea Warfare Center
Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2
Newport, RI  02841-1708

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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 12:57:00 PST
From: "Toler, Duffy L." <TOLERD at cdnet.cod.edu>
Subject: Making and Packaging of Root Beer (Duffy Toler)


I thought I would throw in my $.02 on the to bottle or not to bottle root 
beer (RB)  thread.

Bottling requires you to either, 1) Naturally carbonate   2)  own a 
Counterpressure bottle filler of some sort

I haven't been happy with the results of natural carbonation, and the added 
concerns of adding however moderate amount of alcohol to a "soft drink", 
creating bottle bombs, waiting for them to carbonate, sanitizing all the 
bottles, etc...  Makes me want to go the artificial route.   (with the 
carbonation that is)   A bottling bucket really sucks up the RB aroma too!

If you use a CP filler, still have the problem of your kegs, and now your 
filler smelling like RB.

Ergo....

I make up one batch at a time, in 2L PET bottles and carbonate using a 
Carbonator Cap (tm).  You can easily throw out the bottle when you are done 
reusing it.  This is clean, immediate and easy.  Sanitation won't be a 
concern due to how quickly it will be gone.   No muss, no fuss.

I like to add a bit (1/2 cup in 2L) of malto-dextrin for body and a touch of 
vanilla for complexity.
YMMV
Happy brewing!

Duffy Toler

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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:52:18 -0500 (EST)
From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: First all-grain

If a person messed up the temperature steps (which i did) and screwed up 
the sparge (which i did) and didn't test for conversion (didn't even 
think about it, Dooooohhhh!) and suspected that lots of starch ended up 
in the fermenter.

Would the specfic gravity be affected by it?

Or is specfic gravity only a measure of sugar content?

_________________________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke                         Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com


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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:26:37 -0800
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: fancy siphon/Whitbread clone/acronyms


I've been thinking about putting together a new racking cane for
transfering from my brew pot to the primary.  I saw an article at
Michael Jackson's web site (great site BTW) that describes a
siphon/filter that encircles the outside bottom of the brew pot, and
has a number of holes drilled in it
(http://www.beerhunter.com/archive/index.html Issue 25).

Has anyone tried this?  My main concern is clogging.  The basic idea
is to whirlpool so the grit goes to the middle, then siphon from the
edges, but there's a big difference between theory and practice.  I
prefer using whole hops, but every once in a while I have to filter
pellet material.

//

Switching gears, I've also been toying with trying to clone Whitbread.
I can guess to use a British pale ale malt and the whitbread yeast,
but after that I'm open to suggestions.  The taste to me seems very
sweet, and what's served at our local pub is usually fairly cloudy
(second-hand smoke not withstanding).  I'm figuring a low-middle
hoppiness with no dry-hopping, and a typical English hop like EKG.
The adjunct to me tastes like a very sweet crystal, but like I said,
I'm open to suggestions.

//

I still have the acronym list, but in the interest of saving space I
placed it on my web server.
http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy/acronym.html.
It seems there are a lot of new brewers on the list, so posting it
directly may be helpful, but I don't want to waste bandwidth.  

Cheers,

SM

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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:29:38 -0500
From: Tim Martin <TimM at southwest.cc.nc.us>
Subject:  London Ale 1028 Hot/Cold Break Confusion

Hey Neighbors,

On Monday, (King's Holiday) I mashed eight lbs. Marris Otter  pale ale 
and pitched London ale 1028 yeast that I had frozen for nine months in
the freezer.  The fermentation has been great and I should be able to
bottle this weekend.  The yeast was saved from my last batch last year
and the brew was real dark so I didn't get to observe the fermentation
process in my carboy like this batch.  On this batch it appears that there
is about a half inch of white powdery yeast on the bottom layer and on
top of this layer of material and this is where I get a little confused. 

I assume this layer is trub or cold break, it looks like crumbled Feta
cheese but it's not white but a little off white, a little tan color to it and 
the layer is about a half inch thick.  Occasionally a chunk will break off
and slowly float to the surface and then another one on the surface will
slowly float to the bottom. 

When I transferred the wort from my boiler to the carboy after about an
hour I noticed a two inch layer of this white fluffy material about two
inched thick on the bottom.  I understand this is common and I'm not
alarmed about this but I'm still confused as to the difference between the
appearance of hot and cold break.  I'm assuming this is cold break. I also
assume that during the primary fermintation this white fluffy material is
then condensed into the Feta cheese looking material in my carboy. What
is going on here?  I use a home made EZ masher in my kettle, except my
diameter is larger and the screen is finer and I even tried the "no
agitation" method with my immersion chiller suspended under the surface
of the wort and I still get this white material in my carboy.  Perhaps David
Burley is on to something when he said a screen will break apart the
cold break when you empty the kettle.  By the way, what the hell does a
"planispiral chiller" look like, is there a link to a photo somewhere?

If I may elaborate a little more on this hot/cold break subject.  Could
someone please explain (in right brain terms) what is going on in my
boiler when my wort first comes to a boil for the first five to ten minutes?
I get this huge layer of foam in my ten gallon kettle and it remain there
nearing boil over until it finally collapses, at this point I add my hops,
lower the heat and continue the boil.  Now, I notice riding on top of the
foam is a brown material, usually near the edge of the kettle, is this the
hot break or is all the foam the hot break.  As an experiment on this last
batch I cranked the propane burner up during the last 15 minutes of the
boil and to my amazement the foam returned.  Is this still more hot break
or was this a reaction from the hops (hop break)?

Last question 8^).  How much is a rolling boil?  Until the boil starts making
noise from the breaking bubbles (this seems to vigorous to me) or until
the rolling bubbles are just disturbing the surface of the wort (my usual
method).  It seems like there are physical, chemical or whatever changes
taking place with my wort during the boil that I would like to get a better
grip on.

Thanks to C.D. Pritchard for helping me freeze and then revive my yeast,
it's an exciting event to wake those little buggers up from their frozen
world and put them to work and a great big QUACK, QUACK, QUACK to
all the homebrew shops that told me I can't freeze yeast.

 Thanks to Pat, Karl and others responsible for the new home.

Thanks In Advance
Tim Martin
Buzzard's Roost Homebrewery
"with that strong predatory taste"
Cullowhee, NC 


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