---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Wyeast 1056 and High O.G. (Eric Scheidler)
  Dead Yeast ??? (Matthew Taylor)
  Copper/Formulation Seminar/Gueuze/Flavor :-( (Rob Moline)
  Hops (Bruce Baker)
  Mashing? (Mark)
  Barstow BEER??? ("Jeff L. Foley")
  spigot for Aluminum brewpot ("John T. Moore")
  Re: Malting amaranth (Scott Kaczorowski)
  Re:NT 3.5 "easter egg" ("Mark S. Johnston")
  1997 Moon Madness ("Mark S. Johnston")
  re: Large Volume Bottling (Mike Porter)
  Canning Wort = Death? (Katy or Delano DuGarm)
  Predicting FG, Predicting OG ("David R. Burley")
  The Decoction From Hell - What Did I Create? (BernardCh)
  Beer recipe clones (DavidR8467)
  Beer Engine Source in London? ("C&S Peterson")
  Beer in SF ("C&S Peterson")
  Filtering Beer.... ("C&S Peterson")
  Re: purging with CO2 ("Keith Royster")
  Stout, Siphons, History of HBD (Paul Ward)
  Heineken in green glass (John Chang)
  Hail to Ale COC Results (Larry M Matthews)
  Melanoidins, Who Needs 'em? (Strawberries have dextrin?) (Charles Burns)
  Newbie making stout (bmurrey)
  Strange Fermentation (Bob Bessette/PicTel)
  Brew-Ski '97 (Homebrewing Competition) (Jeff Handley & Gene Almquist)
  Milk Stout, paddling along ("David R. Burley")
  Homebrew Digest #2335 (February 04, 1997) -Reply (Skjalg Myklebust)
  suscribe mailinglist (Gero en Rico)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:54:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Eric Scheidler <ejs000 at dns.colum.edu>
Subject: Wyeast 1056 and High O.G.

Yesterday I pitched a large quantity of healthy Wyeast 1056 into a wort 
of much higher gravity than I was expecting--1.073.  I'm aiming for an 
old ale, so the gravity itself is fine with me, but I'm a little 
concerned that 1056 might not be able to handle it.  I'd have diluted the 
wort a bit, but at the time of pitching the wort in my hydrometer was 
still rather foamy, so I couldn't read the gravity.

Anybody have any experience with 1056 and a gravity this high?  If the 
yeast peters out, would pitching some fresh 1056 (I have a culture in my 
fridge available) help?  Or should I go with a high-alcohol-tolerant 
yeast if this yeast can't make it?

Thanks.  (By the way, this is my first partial mash--staggeringly more 
work than extract, but deeply satisfying.)

|  Eric J. Scheidler   || "In much wisdom is much vexation, and he who in- |
| ejs000 at dns.colum.edu || creases knowledge increases sorrow." Eccles 1:18 |




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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 14:15:52 -0800
From: Matthew Taylor <mtaylor at mail.valverde.edu>
Subject:  Dead Yeast ???

Hello all Homebrewers

Here's my situation;  The last batch of beer I brewed got off to a  
bad start.  I mistakenly pitched a yeast slurry that was almost 6  
weeks old instead of the 2 or 3 weeks old like I thoght.  I  
realized it after I smelt the jar.  The risdule yeast had a very  
sour off smell.  It was late that day so it was too late to go get  
fresh yeast from the home brew store.  First thing the next morning  
I went out to check and there was only a slight sign of  
fermentation starting, and as I had hoped, a good layer of yeast  
that had setteled out in the bottom of the carboy.  I went down to  
the shop and bought some fresh yeast, came home and racked the beer  
and pitched the new yeast(I figured I needed to use the dry stuff,  
I couldn't wait to make a starter.)
With the fresh yeast things got foaming in about 4 hours.  The gas  
coming out of the airlock had the rubbery smell that I was affraid  
of.  The rest of the primary went well. After racking to the  
secondary and dry hopping with whole leaf hops, things got cold in  
southern California and it took almost three weeks for the yeast to  
drop out and the beer to clear.
At bottling time there was still a faint aroma of burnt rubber  
(what is that "auto- something word?)  Last night I tried a bottle  
after two weeks of conditioning, and was plesently surprised.  It  
had a little off taste in the first sip, but no where near as bad  
as I thought it might.  My wife tried it and liked it.  After I  
explained the burnt rubber taste she tried it again, and said it  
was there but not very strong.

Finally my question, will the situation improve, will the off taste  
(not very noticable now) get stronger or mellow with more time in  
the bottle?

Thanks for your help

Matt Taylor

Private e-mail is fine
mtaylor at valverde.edu

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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:31:23 -0600
From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Subject: Copper/Formulation Seminar/Gueuze/Flavor :-(

                        The Jethro Gump Report
>From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at mail.chattanooga.net>
>Subject: re: Jethro on Copper,
>Jethro posted:
>> ...the fear being that copper might be leached from the brass, and harm the
>customer.
>..... it was my understanding that the problem with brass was
>the lead which some alloys contain. 
>Is this yet another health scare?  

        Apparently. They only were concerned with copper content, and from
their own testing, it is apparent that levels in finished beer are
miniscule....as another co-respondent said in private
e-mail...(paraphrased).."without knowing the copper content in the water and
malts used to brew, measurements in finished beer are useless, in regards to
copper being leached from brass fittings and faucets."

Recipe Formulation Seminar..
        There will be a R.F.S. on Feb 23, 97 at the Holiday Inn/Overland
Park, Kansas, from 10 am to 3 pm. Costs $49, includes lecture, notes, lunch,
and discounts on books. This seminar follows the K.C. Biermeisters annual
competition and mini-conference, and will be conducted by Ray Daniels for
the Craft Beer Institute. Register..(800)-229-1832.

Gueuze Pronunciation..
        Local professor of French at KSU, Belgian born Claire Dehon
<dehoncl at ksu.edu> says the easiest way for English speakers to pronounce
gueuze is "guh-ze" with a short u, like in 'duh'. Interestingly, the French
use a similar word, 'la gueuse,' to refer in colloquial slang to a
prostitute. Just shows that you gotta be careful what you ask for in
languages your not fully conversant with!

Flavor of the Month...:-(
        My new assistant goofed and kegged up a 1/2 bbl of Barleywine into a
keg that was preloaded with Jalapeno extract for a Jalapeno beer....ouch!
One of those beers that people either love or detest, and the former, in no
way, outnumber the latter! We call it "Carrie Nation's Axe." I just couldn't
bring myself to throw it away.
Cheers!
Jethro
Rob Moline
Little Apple Brewing Company,
Manhattan, Kansas.

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!"


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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:07:46 +1300
From: Bruce Baker <Bruce.E.Baker at tsy.treasury.govt.nz>
Subject: Hops

G'day y'all,

Something I've been wondering about lately is how different are different 
varieties of hops.  So far, I've tried some New Zealand grown Hallertau, 
Stiklebracht (which I have never seen reference to in books, but is described 
as a relative of Northern Brewer), and some Saaz I got from Australia.

My impression is that the two strands of New Zealand hops are very much the 
same, while the Saaz hops are less bitter.  Is there any consensus on whether 
hops are wildly different (like bell peppers and habaneros) or quite similar 
(like Burpee Big Boy and Beefsteak tomatoes).

Cheers,
Bruce



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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:50:52 +0900
From: Mark <hobie at soback.kornet.nm.kr>
Subject: Mashing?

Hello all,
 I have been extract brewing for about three years now and ready to make the
switch to mashing.
 - I ve read bits and pieces about mashing but still havent gotten the
entire process set in my mind...whats the best source (in "good ole
homebrew" terms) of complete information?
 - Going to be in Korea for the next several years and need to buy my
mashing equipment on a quick visit to the states. Is there a complete system
that I can grab to get started?
 - (See question #2) Anyone know how to make a good rice beer? : ) or : (
    
Email me with any help. Going home soon. hobie at soback.kornet.nm.kr

Has anyone read AOB's "How to open a brewpub....."   is it worth the money
for any considering a brewpub within the next 5-10 years?


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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:28:50 -0500
From: "Jeff L. Foley" <102120.1255 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Barstow BEER???

I am traveling to the Barstow, Ft. Irwin CA, on business. Can anyone tell
me of any brewpubs, breweries, tastins/festival or homebrew shops in ths
area?
 

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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 16:25:58 -0600
From: "John T. Moore" <JMOORE at sfasu.edu>
Subject: spigot for Aluminum brewpot

Another homebrew lurker comes out of the closet: I've been reading the HBD
for about a year now and have learned many things. As a novice I greatly
appreciate the experienced brewers sharing their knowledge/experiences.
Hopefully I will be able to learn to be a better brewer.
Now for my question: I have a large aluminum brewpot for my boils (I don't
really want to open the Aluminum vs SS debate again) and I'm thing of adding
a spigot to it to save wear and tear on my back. I would like to use a
bulkhead-type fitting instead of having someone try to weld a fitting into
place. However, I also know that there is such a process called electrolytic
corrossion caused by joining two different metals. Would this be a problem
in my case and if so how can it be solved (other than buying a SS pot -
having a teacher's salary and a frugal wife prevents this).

TIA

                John Moore
                MOORE-or-Less Brewery -  located in the heart of East Texas


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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:00:48 PST
From: Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at aisf.com>
Subject: Re: Malting amaranth


Andy asks in HBD #2334:

> I had a dream of making a high-percentage amaranth beer which would
> require home-malting 5 pounds or so. I've just tried test malting a
> pound and all I succeeded in creating was an incredibly foul stench.

I've done some home malting of corn, and you have to turn the "piece"
often.  Just get in there and gently stir it up at least twice a day.
Rinsing is important too, but you must turn it as well so that you
discourage the growth of mold and allow the grain to get some air.
This also seems to make the rate of sprouting more even.

> I used a tall container-

Use something shallower, like a plastic tub with holes drilled in the
bottom.  I'd *guess* that for a small grain like amaranth you'd want
about 1 to 2 inches deep.  You can cover the tub with a damp towel to
keep the grain from drying out.

The rest of your procedure sounds fine.

Why not try it without malting it first?  Be a lot simpler and the
worst thing that could happen would be that the finished beer is cloudy.
Not much of a tragedy IMO.


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
kacz at aisf.com


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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:05:38 -0500
From: "Mark S. Johnston" <msjohnst at talon.net>
Subject: Re:NT 3.5 "easter egg" 

Richard Scholz writes:

>Since all of us use a computer to post, here's a little hidden feature of
>Microsoft's NT 3.5x OS. (know as an Easter Egg by the programing
cognoscenti)
>If one types "BEER" into the 3D text screensaver built into NT. One get
more
>than 50 beer brands and styles randomly scrolled on the screen instead of
the
>word "BEER". Lots of belgians , british and american microbrew brands
along
>with style names like IPA,
>Weisse, Trippel etc. Just thought people with NT in front of them at work
or
>home would like to know. 

I have this at work. What amazes me is how many are misspelled!

"Guiness"?
"Whatney's"?

At least Fix was spelled correctly. For all the money Bill Gates makes on
this, you'd think that his spell checker was working.;-) 


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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:13:06 -0500
From: "Mark S. Johnston" <msjohnst at talon.net>
Subject: 1997 Moon Madness

Just a reminder that the Sixth Annual Moon Madness Homebrew Competition
will be held on March 8, 1997 at the Market House Pub and Pretzel City
Brewing Co. in Reading, PA. Entries may be sent between 2/12 and 2/26 to:

	Brew-Ha-Ha, Ltd.
	RD2 Box 2519-1
	Route 222
	Fleetwood, PA  19522

Two bottles per entry, brown or green glass, 10 - 16 oz. No swing
tops--crown caps only. Use standard AHA recipe form and bottle labels or
Email msjohnst at talon.net for entry packet. Entry fees are $6 for the first
entry and $5 for each additional entry. 1997 AHA style guidelines and
categories apply. 

Judges and Stewards are also needed. Email msjohnst at talon.net with your
snail mail address for forms and info. Or send the standard AHA Judge
Waiver Form with BJCP experience level and T-shirt size to the above
address.


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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 20:29:28 -0600
From: Mike Porter <mikeporter at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Large Volume Bottling

I have used 2L pet bottles with good results on several occasions.  If
the beer will be in the bottle for less than 2-3 months, so long as you
keep it out of the light you should be fine.  When refridgerated, I have
had beer in these bottles for over 4 months with no problem.

map
- -- 
Mike Porter		Stress and Vibration Consulting Services
Dynamic Analysis	FEA Consulting and Training
(913) 341-3269

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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 22:36:18 -0500
From: Katy or Delano DuGarm <dugarm at mnsinc.com>
Subject: Canning Wort = Death?


>I've always used "Mason" jars for canning wort for subsequent use as
>starters.  Recently, lacking sufficient jars, I tried ordinary 12 oz. beer
>bottles with good results.

>Method was the typical canning method- boil
>bottles, drain breifly and fill while hot with boiling wort, cap (I didn't
>preheat the caps) and process for 30 mins. in a boiling water bath.  A
>caveat:  be careful around hot fluids- .

A more important caveat is that YOU CANNOT SAFELY CAN WORT IN A BOILING
WATER BATH.  Sorry about the shouting, but it is not good procedure to can
anything  with a pH higher than 4.2 in a boiling water bath.  Everything
else, like wort, needs a pressure canner.  If you don't believe me, look in
the Ball Blue Book, the Kerr Canning Guide, _Putting Foods By_ or any other
modern canning cookbook.  I agree that canning wort is a timesaver, but it
is stupid to put your health at risk to save a few minutes.  While botulism
is quite rare, it is most often caused by home-canned food, and its effects
are irreversable.

Delano DuGarm
Arlington, Virginia
dugarm at mnsinc.com


Delano DuGarm
Arlington, Virginia
dugarm at mnsinc.com

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Date: 03 Feb 97 22:43:45 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Predicting FG, Predicting OG

Brewsters,

Charles Rich says about his method of fermenting a small batch at high
temperature to predict the FG before the main batch finishes.:
 
> In practice I find very good agreement between predicted and actual FG's
> **to the resolution of a hydrometer reading** (emphasis mine). 

That "accuracy and repeatability" rather than the resolution of the hydrometer
is strongly affected by the CO2 bubbles in the still fermenting beer, I'm sure.
It is possible to do it the way you suggest and likely get decent results most
of the time,  just not very practical IMHO when Clinitest is so easy to use.
- ------------------------------------------
Ray Love is having OG problems with pale malt syrup:

I assume the bulk syrup is of constant consistency and not obviously picking up
moisture from the air, fermenting or any other weird thing.  What is the% water?

I assume the wort is well stirred and has the same gravity on top as on bottom.
Often that last gallon or so of water added to bring the wort up to 5+ gallons
doesn't get stirred in very well.  How well do you stir it?  If you have this
problem rack it into another carboy with the wort swirling in the bottom of the
second carboy, move the hose up and down in the first carboy.  Testing  the SG
several times a few hours apart will show you if you have this problem.  If the
SG goes up over time, improper stirring is your problem.

Although I favor a poor job of stirring as the culprit to explain these large
discrepancies, I have to ask this also. Are you correcting your OG readings to
60F? and measuring it at a standard volume of wort? ( say all at 5.5 gallons or
whatever)   Try a test, take a known amount of extract, dilute it to a known
volume with water, Stir very well,  measure the temperarture and the SG.  Go to
Charlie Papazians book and check what you should get.  If you don't have his
book e-mail me your results and I will tell you if the extract is on target or
not.
- -------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK




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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 03:14:13 -0500 (EST)
From: BernardCh at aol.com
Subject: The Decoction From Hell - What Did I Create?

Comments from the collective and especially the experienced decoction  masher
are requested.

Tried my first decoction Sunday, which became the decoction from hell.  Grain
bill was 7.25# Belgian Munich, 1.5# Belgian CaraMunich, 2# Crystal 60L, 2.50
Belgian pilsner malt.  The planned mash schedule was to mash in with .9
qts/pound to reach a 131F rest, hold for 15 minutes.  Pull 40-50% of the
thickest part, heat to 158F, hold for 10 minutes, heat slowly though to
boiling, boil for 5 minutes.  Return this first decotion to the main mash to
reach 158F rest.  After conversion, pull the thinnest 50% of the mash, heat
to boiling for 5 minutes, return to main mash to reach 170F mash out
temperature.

Ok lets mash!

Mashed in as above (12 qts total H2O at 147F) and actually got 131F (At this
point I was overwhelmed with joy! :)).  Rested for 15 minutes (the mash, not
me) and pulled the first decoction.  Decoction was thick, not runny, and
didn't scorch.  Did the decoction thing per schedule above (confidence is
building in my abilities) and returned to main mash which had only dropped to
128F (from 131F)  Added the decoction back to the main mash hoping (expecting
actually, high confidence level now) to get 158F.  What!  Temperature
stabilized at about 145F!!!!  All confidence is now gone :(  Threw the whole
mash kettle on the cooker and heated entire mash up to 158F.  Waited for
conversion (60minutes or so)  Not wanting to tempt fate again pulling another
decoction I just heated the whole #$%^& mash up to 168F for mash out.
 Transfered to lauter tun and sparged as usual.

Was expecting an OG of around 1.072, got only about 1.062.  OK not bad, this
was a learning experience.

I know it's not ruined.  It was wort, it's fermenting, it will be beer and
I'll drink it.   So what did I actually produce with this kind of mash
schedule?  Any ideas on how much fermentables/nonfermentables this disaster
produced?  What kinda body might I expect?  Where did I go wrong.  What else
can I learn from this escapde besides "don't ever try to do a decoction
again?"

Chuck
BernardCh at aol.com
Music City Brewers
Nashville, TN - Music City USA

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 03:52:38 -0500 (EST)
From: DavidR8467 at aol.com
Subject: Beer recipe clones

I am fairly new to brewing, but sure liked my initial results. I have found
bottled beers which I like, but do not know what to use in an attempt to get
similar results. I think I lean toward the malty, sweeter, medium hopped
types. Any (partial mash) recipe suggestions, that are similar to these
beers?

Brews I found to be excellent: 
                                       Brasal Bock (Canadian Dark Lager)
                                       McRogue Scotch Ale (Oregon)
                                       Flag Porter (Britain)
                                       Devil Mountain Black Honey Ale
(California)
I was at the Chicago Beer extravaganza on 2-2-97. Out of 35 beers I could not
find one like the ones above. I asked my local brewing supplier, and he had
not tasted the beers I am refering to - HELP!
               Thanks much!! - Help a guy get started! - Thanks again
davidr8467 at aol.com

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 07:18:56 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at msn.com>
Subject: Beer Engine Source in London?

HBDers -

I will be going to London in a few weeks on business, and am hoping to pick up 
a beer engine or two while I am there.  My understanding is that the pubs were 
recently required to change out their beer engines (some had brass parts), and 
that many are simply lying around in cellars waiting to be bought by American 
homebrewers longing to infect their brains with lead. :-)  

Does anyone out there know of someone I can contact in the London area that 
might have a few of these "banned" engines?

TIA,

Chas Peterson

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 07:30:02 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at msn.com>
Subject: Beer in SF

HBDers -

Alex Santic recently wrote lamenting the poor selection of beers in SF.  I was 
recently in the Bay area, and had no problem finding some great beers.  Of 
course I was in the San Jose area, and had a car, so if you're willing to ride 
the highway a bit you can find some truly great brewpubs in the Bay area.  My 
two favorites are the Front Street brewpub (for ales) in Santa Cruz -- they 
had some live music when I was there, and Los Gatos Brewing Company in (where 
else) Los Gatos (IMHO, the best brewpub I've ever been considering atmosphere, 
food, and drink -- they specialize in Lagers).

Granted SF is not Seattle or Portland where you can easily find cask ales and 
the like, but remember you are in wine country!  

The Tied House and Gordon-Biersch (sic) are always good standbys too.

Perhaps this will help other HBDers headed to SF,

Chas Peterson

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 08:04:59 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at msn.com>
Subject: Filtering Beer....

HBDers -

I just wanted to give the filtering thread a kick or two.....

I recently aquired a 0.5 mircon filter (from the Filter Store plus, standard 
disclaimers, etc), and have been very interested in some of the posts 
regarding head formation and the affect of filtration on flavor.

So far I have "packaged" three batches of beer with the filter.  I usually 
make 10 gallons or so -- I've been bottling 5 and kegging 5.  For the first 
two batches, the bottles were entirely unfiltered, and the kegs were filtered 
and forced.  Here are the results so far:

Batch 1 -- a 100# wheat beer:
I found no difference in flavor or head retention between the two batches.  
Also, carbonation bubble size was, if anything, smaller in the kegged batch 
than in the bottled batch.  This may simply be due to different carbonation 
levels (the kegged had less carbonation).  Of course the keg batch was clear 
and the bottled was hazy, as you would expect.  However, the bottled batch is 
clearing somewhat as time goes on.  These results, since this was a wheat beer 
probably loaded with protiens, may be suspect as to the heading and 
carbonation properties.

Batch 2 -- a low gravity mild:
Again, I found no difference in the filtered and unfilted batches, except for 
haze.  This too may reduce with time as the bottles clear.  

Batch 3 -- an IPA:
Here, I filtered 9+ gallons and will force the keg and "spunded" (sic) the 
bottles with the remaining unfilted beer (to make a total of 10 gallons....).  
Results TBD.  To be scientific here, I probably should have reserved a bottle 
or two of totally unfilted beer to compare the keg-filtered bottle-unfiltered 
bottle, but the filtering process takes so long that I didn't want to bother.  
Which leads me too a few questions:

What is the benefit of filtration?  My beers ususally get clear (most times to 
commercial clarity) with Polyclar if I let them sit a month or two.  And since 
I cannot as yet detect a flavor difference in the filtered/unfiltered batches, 
the extra 2 hours filtering adds to my bottling process (not to mention the 
extra expense and mess; oops I just did :-) )  does not seem to be a clear 
"winner" of an investment.  The only advantages I see so far is that I can get 
clear beer FAST, and if my bottle conditioning experiment works out, I may be 
able to reduce the sediment in the bottle or keg, making it easier for 
non-homebrewers to consume my beer (which I guess is a benefit.....).  

Perhaps I should try a larger micron rating (say 1 micron) -- will this speed 
the filtration process?  Intuitively I'd say yes, but others with experience 
may have some real data points here.

Also, I'm not keen on force carbonating.  Just my personal preference, but it 
seems to take for me about as long to force a keg as it does to naturally 
carbonate (yes, I simply refuse to sit and shake a keg for 15 to 30 
minutes...).  Will a 1 micron rating leave enough yeast in the beer to prime 
with sugar as typically done, or do I need to reserve some unfiltered beer as 
a yeast supply?  How about a 5 micron rating?

Just some datapoints from a "newbie" filterer,

Chas Peterson

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:21:19 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith.royster at pex.net>
Subject: Re: purging with CO2

There have been a couple of posts lately describing different methods 
of purging an empty carboy or keg with CO2 prior to racking into it.  
The methods described so far attempt to describe how to fill the 
container with CO2 so as not to under fill (allowing for some O2 to 
still be in the container) or over fill (wasting precious CO2).

I would like to offer another method.  If the price of CO2 is of no
concern to you and/or you will not be able to sleep well at night
unless you squeeze every last drop of O2 out of your process, then
this may not be the tip for you.  Otherwise read on....

What I do is first rack the beer into the keg or carboy without 
pre-purging.  If you rack it carefully and slowly so that there is no 
splashing, then there will actually be very little oxygen that gets 
into the beer in the short time it takes to rack.  NOW, purge the 
headspace with CO2!  Instead of taking ~5 minutes to waste 5 gallons 
of CO2, you now only need to take ~15 to 30 seconds to purge the much 
smaller headspace.  The headspace in kegs will typically be smaller 
than carboys, so adjust your purge times accordingly.

Even though this method does not allow for accurately knowing when to 
stop purging, if you err on the side of caution, you should be 
covered and you still will have used much less CO2 than if you tried 
to purge the entire container. This process saves time and CO2, while 
only slightly increasing the inevitable introduction of small amounts 
of O2.

PS- I never did get a response regarding whether or not submicron air 
filters are necessary based on my assumption that the little nasties 
floating around are actually not free floating but attached to larger 
dust particles that can be filtered easily with basic cloth, cotton, 
or something similar.  Does anyone have a comment on whether this 
assumption (nasties do not free-float) is correct or not?

Thanks! Oh, and thanks to Pat and Karl (and others) for the 
new?/old? HBD!!  Your efforts are honorable and noted!

Keith Royster - Mooresville, North Carolina
"An Engineer is someone who measures it with a micrometer,
marks it with a piece of chalk, and cuts it with an ax!"

mailto:Keith.Royster at pex.net
http://dezines.com/ at your.service - at your.service 
http://dezines.com/ at your.service/cbm -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://dezines.com/ at your.service/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery)

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:04:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Stout, Siphons, History of HBD

Thanks to everyone who responded either privately or through the
digest to my concerns and questions on my first stout.  I never did
locate either the black patent or the chocolate malt called for in
the recipe, but I have a great color and the hydrometer sample tasted
great, so I have great expectations for the outcome of this one.

What is the suggested priming rate for a bottled stout?  The Guinness
I tried had that nice man-made head (nature had nothing to do with
it).  Is a stout heavily primed to emulate the artificial Guinness
head, or should it carry a more subdued carbonation level like an
English bitter?

I tried the 'Chore Boy' in a hop bag wired to a racking cane idea for
the first (and last) time Sunday.  I was trying to impress my wife
with the low tech solutiion to a niggling problem.  I cooled the
wort, whirlpooled and let it set for about 1/2 hour, then inserted
the cane/chore boy thing, grabbed the turkey baster and started the
siphon - for about 10 seconds.  As the wort crawled back up the
tubing, I watched the break whirl back into suspension from the
backflow.  I could not get the siphon to start again.  I thought this
invention was designed to work with hop pellets, but the hop bag
became so clogged with pellet powder that the wort wouldn't siphon. 
The turkey baster  proved insufficient to pull wort through the now
plugged hop sack.  I tossed the baster and locked my lips around the
tubing.  Even that couldn't pull the wort.  I gave up, pulled the
chore boy et al. from the racking cane, reinstalled it and gave a
real hearty suck on the tubing.  Wort jumped through the tubing, into
my mouth, engaging a gag reflex and impressing my wife as wort
squirted out of my nose and mouth onto her kitchen floor.  You get a
whole new life experience when you have 8.6% AA hop particles drying
in your nose.  You also make odd noises and facial expressions.  My
wife thought it was worth the price of admission.

About 8 months ago I began the task of reading all past issues of the
HBD.  I can only read a couple of past issues a day during lunch, but
I'm all the way up to 1992.  Believe me, there's a lot of reading to
do, and I'm waiting to see how some of the threads turn out, and to
see what became of some of the luminaries of the past who rarely (or
never) post anymore.  One of the great constants, however, is Al K. 
He was answering some of the same questions 6 years ago that he is
answering for a whole new batch of homebrewers today.  He not only
answers through the digest, but also takes the time to send private
email to neophytes who run into problems.  I know because he has done
this for me (as have several of the *VERY* knowledgable members of
this forum).  People who are intimidated by some of the discussions
(and expressed heat of some of those discussions) and feel that this
forum is too advanced should just ignore the heat and grab the
nuggets.  There is knowledge to gain here by everyone.  People who
think the HBD is too vitriolic today should read the past digests,
there was some unabashed bashing going on in the past.  

I wish to thank all contributors to the HBD, past, present and future
for helping me turn that first can of brown gooey sweet stuff into a
drinkable beer, and for all the improvements I've made since then. 
There is no greater jewel than knowledge.  Sometimes you have to wait
for the lotus to open fully, however, to see the jewel within.

Sorry to pontificate, just very appreciative of everyone here.

Paul

paulw at doc.state.vt.us

- -- 
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what of humanitarians?

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Date: 04 Feb 97 10:23:41 EST
From: John Chang <75411.142 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Heineken in green glass

More on the green vs brown bottle and skunking!

Mark Bayer wrote:

>heineken and the others simply take advantage of this behavior (at the expense
>of the beer, and the consumer, of course).  they *know* the effects of light on
> beer,>but as long as joe q. style is willing to buy it, they'll gladly keep
shipping
> it over here.

>i wonder, does heineken use green glass for their domestically sold beer?

Last week a friend at work brought me two bottles of Heineken back from
Amsterdam, after having claimed that the domestic Heineken is not close to the
*imported* stuff we get here.  I believe the beer inside is more of an amber,
but is bottled in brown glass.

John Chang


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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:08:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Larry M Matthews <lmatt at ipass.net>
Subject: Hail to Ale COC Results

Brewers,
   The Carboy and Trub homebrew clubs in Raleigh and Durham recently hosted
the AHA sponsored Hail to Ale COC. Winners were:
   1st- Shekhar & Paula Nimkar-Boston Wort Processors
           with an American-style Amber
   2nd-Andy Widger-Allegany Libation, Education, & Recreation Society 
           with an American-style Pale Ale
   3rd-Tom Viaene-Boeing Employees Wine & Beer Club (WA)
           with an American Wheat
   Evaluations sheets will be mailed to AHA and then forwarded to the 90
brewers/clubs who entered this competition. If you entered the contest and
would like more immediate feedback on your results, please send a private
email and I'll respond within 24 hours.
   The judges, stewards, and organizers for this COC worked hard to provide
professional, honest and competent evaluations on beers entered. 
   Thanks to all the clubs that took the time to select and enter their
beers. The Shamrock Open sponsored by the Cary-Apex-Raleigh Brewers of Yore
recently announced their annual competition for April 5, 1997. We would
like to have you contact us if you are interested in judging or entering
your beers for an evaluation.
   One final humorous note on the vast range of packing provided to your
shipped beers, I was somewhat hesitant to open the one entry that was
wrapped in "Pampers". Even after 13 years without changing a diaper, I was
still nervous about the contents. 

                                         Cheers,
                                         Larry Matthews
                                         Carboy/Trub member
                                         Raleigh, NC 27606
                                         lmatt at ipass.net


					Larry M Matthews
					Carboy/Trub Member
					Raleigh, NC 27606
					lmatt at ipass.net

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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 08:44 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Melanoidins, Who Needs 'em? (Strawberries have dextrin?)

It was a dark and stormy night... That story is just too long. Fact is, I 
made a practice run of my first Decoction and it went south on me. 
Temperature control is the bane of my existence. The practice run was to be 
my Strawberry Blond, I thought that an extra malty flavor would make the 
beer taste like a Strawberry Milkshake (the old fashioned kind made without 
cornstarch).

Well, after 14 days in the primary the gravity went from 1.057 to 1.006. 
This is just a bit too dry for my taste.

The strawberries go into the secondary after being frozen and then 
pasteurized. Question is, will the sugar in the strawberries be fermentable 
or unfermentable? The beer definitely needs more body and I'm wondering if 
the berries will take care of it.

Please send me a copy in private email if you post a response.


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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:10:56 -0800
From: bmurrey at BELLIND.COM
Subject: Newbie making stout

I've just bottled/kegged my first batch of beer since about 1980. It's a
nice pale American Lager that turned out pretty well, but just a little
on the cloudy side....nevertheless, it tastes great.

I wish to brew a stout now, but, I'm no big fan of the very bitter
aftertaste found in most Irish Stouts that I have sampled (which ain't
many).

If I used a dark DME and instead of using Black Patent Malt I chose
something a bit less bitter (like chocolate malt), would I be able to
still have a nice thick stout, with moderate alcohol content, and a
little lighter on the aftertaste?

Reply to the digest or just email me. (bmurrey at bellind.com)

Thanks

Any additional tips are appreciated. I'm using a (God forbid) 10 gallon
plastic pail to do the primary fermentation in, then I rack over to my 6
gallon glass jug with ferm lock. I cover the primary with a sheet of
plastic and a big rubber band.  When the secondary slows way down I
usually rack back to the pail, clean out the jug, and rack back to the
secondary and let it sit for a couple more days. I find this helps to
clear things a bit but I'm curious as to the magic that irish moss
claims in clearing proteins.

I'm putting my brew in the 1.5L kegs for th emost part, and 2L PET
bottles for sharing. I hate getting just one 12 oz beer to try, what if
it's good?  2L is a much better quantity.

All beer is good, it's just that some is better.



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Date:  4 Feb 97 10:22:34 EDT
From: Bob Bessette/PicTel
Subject: Strange Fermentation

Fellow Brewers,
 I am actually writing this from Holland. I'm here on business.I had an 
excellent white beer last night called Wietske Witte and it was excellent. It's 
actually made in Holland, not Belgium, even though it's very close to Belgium. 
I plan on trying a few Belgian Whites while I'm here also.

 Anyway, this is not why I am writing. My last batch had a rather strange 
occurrence with the fermentation. My typical ferment happens like this. The 
wort churns and churns pretty violently for a day or two, the airlock bubbling 
every second for the first day or 2 and then slows down and bubbles every 10-20 
seconds for another day or 2. This time I had the violent churning for the 
first day or 2 and on the third day the wort was still churning but the airlock 
did not bubble anymore. Even though the beer was still churning fairly 
vigorously there was no bubbling at all. I don't think there was a problem but 
I just thought that this was strange. I did not see any problem with the 
stopper (no slight holes or air breaks) and the airlock itself appeared to be 
fine. 

I am not real concerned about the batch because it smelled heavenly upon 
racking was just wondering why the air bubbles would stop so suddenly? 

Cheers,
Bob  (bbessett at pictel.com) 

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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:51:17 -0700
From: Jeff Handley & Gene Almquist <homebrew at infomagic.com>
Subject: Brew-Ski '97 (Homebrewing Competition)

Just a quick reminder...
The 1997 Brew-Ski Homebrewing Competition held on February 22 at the Arizona
Snowbowl is only a few weeks away. This BJCP/AHA sanctioned competition is
open to all brewers. Refer to The AHA '97 guidelines for entry information.
With every beer entered you will receive a lift ticket on the day of the
event for $15.00. Entrys must be received by Feb. 19th. If you need info
please e-mail us outpost@ homebrewers.com.


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Date: 04 Feb 97 13:49:43 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Milk Stout, paddling along

Brewsters:

Tony Owens asks about Milk Stouts and Lactating Mothers and stout rationing to
mothers in WWII.

Michael J. Lewis in "Stout" (Classic Beer Style Series - Brewers Publications)
has a something to say about this and I suggest you take a look.  It appears to
be related to health ( similar to the origin of Milk Chocolate), but Lewis
implies at the beginning of the book that this was just a way for a woman to get
a good drink in Victorian and post-VIctorian times ( especially in Methodist
Wales - boyo)  without embarrassing anyone. Then again it may have helped babies
( or the mother ) sleep better.

I had always thought that Milk Stout was called this because lactose (milk
sugar) was added and didn't have anything to do with nursing mothers, although
it was a favorite among nursing mothers and this extra nutrtional product may
have been targeted at this unfulfilled ( for religious and social reasons)
market niche. Lewis indicates the concept of drinking mothers preceded the
addition of the nutritional enhancers like lactose,whey and concentrated
peptonized milk. ( and the term "milk" stout may not have been used before these
additions either - I'm not sure about the origin of this name). He says on p 26
"Furthermore, for nursing mothers stout or other beer is a tradition of great
antiquity."   British truth in packaging laws now prohibit the use of the term
Milk Stout because it is misleading.

As far as beer restrictions in the Great War (WWII), this was attempted on many
fronts by the then PC anti-drinking establishment. Preserving this tradition for
mothers may have been a way of softening the position.  It was proposed at one
time that beer production be restricted or even stopped and the grain fed to
people and cattle ( sorta like the grain vs beef thread going through the PC
community at present - have you eaten your 5 pounds of grain today?).  Efforts
like this failed because it was pointed out that nutritious beer was made from
this grain AND the cattle were fed the dried remains of the mash tun. This
represented the most efficient use of the grain, notwithstanding the uttter
social upheaval this would have caused if beer production were restricted or
stopped.  Can you imagine it?! no pubs or beer in war-torn Britain!!!  Without
the pubs and beer to foster community and relieve tensions, maybe the Americans
wouldn't have been over-paid, over-sexed and over there!
- ------------------------------------------------
Rich Zurek asks:

> I bought a paddle.  It looks like it is sealed with
> urathane.  My question is what should I do to this paddle to use it safely to
> stir wort?

I built a large paddle many,many ( 10 -15 - 20?) years ago from new oak floor
boards and sealed it with a urethane varnish. Many pounds of malt and gallons of
wort have passed over its surface. It is still doing fine and so am I.  Properly
cured urethane varnish is about the best sealer you can have as it is tough,
chemically stable,  water repellant, able to withstand boiling water
temperatures and a good bonder to wood. 
- -------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK


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Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 14:51:18 -0500
From: Skjalg Myklebust <MYKLEBSK at LANMAIL.SHU.EDU>
Subject:  Homebrew Digest #2335 (February 04, 1997) -Reply

unsub beer-L


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Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:36:15 +0100
From: Gero en Rico <gero at worldonline.nl>
Subject: suscribe mailinglist

Hello,


Can you send me your mailinglist???????


Thanks


Gero

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