HOMEBREW Digest #2344 Wed 12 February 1997

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  False bottom-pump it! (Carrick Legrismith)
  conical fermenters-what do you use? (Steve kemp)
  Botulism questions ("MacRae Kevin J")
  Re: White Labs Yeast Test Results (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Heat Source; Adventures Await in China (Lorne P. Franklin)
  Botulism/Iso-alpha acid solubili (eric fouch)
  SS Air stone (Graham Stone)
  OG? (Adam=Fisher)
  taking homebrew overseas ("Gabrielle Palmer")
  Cats Meow/Brewery website (Chico Seay)
  results, and the recipe (soda) (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
  ASBC IBU analysis (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Brew Kettle Questions (Spencer W Thomas)
  Cleaning Kegs (Steve Snyder)
  Lowering temp on Chico yeasts? (Tony Owens)
  Re: Witbier (Jeff Renner)
  house flavor or household microbe? (neumbg73)
  fining, filtering, and aging/candi sugars (korz)
  Tun design, revisited ("R. Wayne McCorkle")
  Wheat beer recipe (Saul Laufer)
  Yeast harvesting from an Open Fermenter (Harlan Bauer)
  Re: Botulism (smurman)
  Re: Beer Yeast Bread (AJN)
  Wyeast temp. ranges (Bill Giffin)
  ADDING CARBONATES TO BREW H2O ("Steven D. Lefebvre")
  Pumpkin beer / wheat beer / hop oil extract question (George De Piro)
  Wheats & Wits (TEX28)
  More botulism (George De Piro)
  Swedish Porter (rjlee)
  YL corrections/W51 (Daniel S. McConnell/DSMBook)
  Skunked Miller/Pathogens in beer/Comment overheard (David C. Harsh)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 09:13:48 -0500 From: Carrick Legrismith <hiscope at c4systm.com> Subject: False bottom-pump it! A. J. deLange ajdel at mindspring.com states: | Tom Neary seeks comments on false bottoms in mash tuns. His post mentions | that direct heat applied beneath a false bottom doesn't circulate very well | through the rest of the mash (this is not a problem with false bottoms in | kettles where as the wort is thinner and the agitation more violent). The | other problem with false bottoms is that lots of stuff works its way | through during the stirring | which is required to keep temperature evenly distrinuted even if a pump is | used. This results in a bit of a problem with crud in the vorlauf (whether | this is recirulated manually or with a pump) leading to longer lauter times | and sensitivity to mechanical motion of the mash lauter tun. I know people | who mash with false bottoms (using pumps) with success but I have given it | up. I use a false bottom that rests on a lattice placed about three inches off the bottom of a barrel mash tun, (same as in the PICO System). The design allows about 3 gallons of foundation water to be directly fired without scorching by the Metal Fusion burner below. The mash is then circulated by a pump through a RIMS and returned to the top of the mash. By using two thermometers, one in the foundation water and the second in the center of the mash, I am able to see if there is a differential and prevent too much of an uneven condition from occurring. This is important during stepping up as to not pass the targeted temperature. Since the tun is insulated and I am careful not to "tunnel" through the grain, the temperature remains even and maintained throughout the entire mash. The inch dip tube is positioned to leave about gallon in the tun at completion and is pointing slightly off center. This helps to prevent the grain particles which have made it by the false bottom from being sucked into the system. In the beginning of the mash about a tablespoon or so goes around the system and reappears at the top of the mash. As to stirring am careful and do so only down about six inches as to not break up the grain bed. My extraction rate is in the low 90's with this system even with a fast sparge of 30-45 minutes. Carrick Legrismith Poison Ivy Brewery Clinton, Michigan "You'll be itching for another" Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:05:56 -0700 From: stevek at propwash.co.symbios.com (Steve kemp) Subject: conical fermenters-what do you use? I would like to refine my brewing process to use only a single vessel for fermentation. A cone shaped vessel with a large valve in the bottom to drain off the trub and spent yeast would be ideal. I've seen the Fermentap product, but, would like something a little more industrial. Since I brew 12 gallon batches I would like at least a 15 gal fermenter with at least a 1" valve in the bottom and a hole in the top for filling / cleaning that is sealable for an airlock. Do any of you have / use a similar fermenter? The US Plastics catalog has a plastic tank to meet these needs for $68. Its made of linear low density polyethylene and is FDA approved for potable water. I've always used glass fermenters, and understand the problems with scratching and sanitizing plastic. What other concerns are there with fermenting in linear low density polyethylene? Naturally stainless would be preferred, however, I don't know where to get one of these, and probably couldn't afford it if I did. Therefore I come to the HBD collective for advice. TIA. Steve Kemp Horseshoe Brewery Loveland, Colorado Owner, operator, main grunt. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:25:00 EST From: "MacRae Kevin J" <kmacrae at UF2269P01.PeachtreeCityGA.NCR.COM> Subject: Botulism questions I can't relax, don't worry and have a homebrew. Espescially not have a homebrew. Not until I get a few questions about this botulism thing answered. I typically top off, with preboiled and chilled water, after racking to my secondary. I had decided to try priming my beer with wort saved from the boil. After re-calculating I realized there was just not enough saved wort. I topped off the secondary with the bottled wort, right from the fridge.(doh!) The Hellesbock is still in the secondary, still slowly falling (at about 1.024 now). Questions: 1. Is my beer ruined? 2. How can I check for botulism? (Drink and die is not the answer I was looking for.) I' m obviously not a chemist, or micro-biologist, but is there any practical botulism test? 3. If I just drink this death brew: a) what are the botulism symptoms to look for? b) how much time will I have left, assuming it's contaminated? c) is botulism treatable? 4. Is this suicide and therefore invalidating my insurance? 5. Is this the beer to save for un-invited guests or the in-laws? Kevin MacRae If responding privately, please use the following address: Kevin.MacRae at PeachtreeCityGA.NCR.COM The following binary file has been uuencoded to ensure successful transmission. Use UUDECODE to extract. begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B\/`0:0"``$```````!``$``0>0! at `(````Y`0```````#H``$( at `<` M&````$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 at 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V`!``"````` at `"``$$ M at `$`$P```$)O='5L:7-M('%U97-T:6]N<P!:!P$% at `,`# at ```,T'` at `*``H` M&0`K``$`+P$!((`#``X```#-!P(`" at `*``(`%``!``$!`0F``0`A````,C9& M0S0S,#$Q0S at S1#`Q,4$Y.34P,#`P0S!$134P,D0`[08!!)`&`*0!```!```` M#0````,``#`"````"P`/# at `````"`?\/`0```%P``````````&"49&!!N`$( M`"LKBBD``"I!70!D`!H`00`;````%``G:&]M96)R97=`8G)E=RYO96]N;&EN M92YC;VTG`&AO;65B<F5W0&)R97<N;V5O;FQI;F4N8V]M`!X``C`!````!0`` M`%--5%``````' at `#,`$````;````:&]M96)R97=`8G)E=RYO96]N;&EN92YC M;VT```,`%0P!````` at 'Y#P$```!3`````````($K'Z2^HQ`9G6X`W0$/5`(` M``$`:&]M96)R97=`8G)E=RYO96]N;&EN92YC;VT`4TU44`!H;VUE8G)E=T!B M<F5W+F]E;VYL:6YE+F-O;0```P#^#P8````>``$P`0```!T````G:&]M96)R M97=`8G)E=RYO96]N;&EN92YC;VTG``````(!"S`!````(````%--5%`Z2$]- M14)215=`0E)%5RY/14].3$E.12Y#3TT``P``.0`````+`$`Z``````(!] at \! M````!`````````(`7`$#D`8`<`4``!$````+`",```````,`) at ``````"P`I M```````#`#8``````$``.0! at _N2M9A>\`1X`<``!````$P```$)O='5L:7-M M('%U97-T:6]N<P``` at %Q``$````6`````;P79JV8`4/\)X,<$="IE0``P-Y0 M+0```P`&$%A1%H\#``<0J`,``!X`"!`!````90```$E#04Y44D5,05 at L1$]. M5%=/4E)904Y$2$%614%(3TU%0E)%5T534$530TE!3$Q93D]42$%614%(3TU% M0E)%5TY/5%5.5$E,24=%5$%&15=154535$E/3E-!0D]55%1(25-"3U0````` M` at $)$`$````L!```*`0``)H&``!,6D9U*Y#DOO\`" at $/`A4"J`7K`H,`4`+R M"0(`8V at *P'-E=#(W! at `&PP*#, at /%` at !P<D)Q$>)S=&5M`H,S-P+D!Q," at S0# MQ at _?9C7;$LP4R#8#QA3(-Q+,%?TN?0J`",\)V3L<CS(U'C4" at `J!#;$+8&YG M,;PP,Q10"PH440OQ(`J%Z$D at 8P!P)P5`')`+8+!X+"!D`B`A\7<%L$AR>2`` M<&0 at $8!V3F4C0".``W!E8AR0=T0N("$F17-P!Y!CY0<Q;",P;F\%0".?"H6Z M3B7Q=0(P`Q$AH&<1P+4CT68'T7$*4!/`:0( at 3P0 at `:`(8`5`=& at $`"#1!N!T M=6P$`&TI\A^0/R-!`^`$D`F`)( at A-W1Y#'!I(<`EHG1O<"#>;PW0(G`#\"H` M(!-0)#!^;P,0"8`C0Q%P`Q`NTG?J81/0<B)P80&`!)`B$,T`T&LK`BV0(&TC M,!&P]P6 at (V`*P'DDB"& at $8`C<-T% at 6D-L"-P,2%T(R$34/<'<"L",5%B">`% MP"XC(O']!4!S(Z$C<`-2))`J`"/`2RZB)Q=!,%1E+2TQ8S\J at "_ at *P(AH!R0 M!T!I>I\S8C9P')`OP00 at :G43P/<ETPGP"&!G+E`UI#52,AK_+9$E0"-P+=$V M4S&'+A0V9/\"0"^3'#$B<`40.N`%0#8#3S9B`U`S0"A at +B at BD&C4(2DK_%0V M<4 at B,"[0]G,&X##`("HA*3$EH$+PKP. at /2LB<$,T<QP at =R6Q-F8ED2L"*"_ at M*94Q+H at P,C0ET7<I+BO\^E$I%CH*A4: at (9`$(#2&K')U"X`) at #\*A3(D at /Y( M13`ALB&2-G!"T0(0!<"E*E8_))`H1`40;D+ at _2-29`B00O(EXC9B*T0AD9LY MTAP at ;S#33#$N*227F5#B22<Q0"W`8G8I4/\Z("6U(^!+T30P$\`B<`6Q8S0P M!0!O+6(I4!P at 9_U2PV(IT2HA.70`<#/B`-#?*``M,2I)*2%*AC-)43T`^R& at M.A-D34,J`PVP+^`N4*TD0CI0:R2085!0=Q&`[RB!.:$^52J$<P;`!3`#<+]4 MH3$P3Y),(DJ&6 at 1B4%#S)``'X&UU$7`I\`=Q+A%_0V$RLB.Q+M`! at #`A!!!U M^S0S+C`G!"`QH0&0-#$OX?M*=UH$8U!0*BLXX0&1+M#]2H8T25,J`V!P+2`S M02-#YSES3#%-\6YV.0$QT#ASSS%1"X! at <#" at ;F-D0"$F_C5DZ#9C-,(Q(36B M3",GX.XM9N$N,"[A9RD2!"`%L<LV8 at N`+0M at =W-*A at J%+$ME4:`#H$T`T%)A M_F4K_3T`')`E,#&Q*P(T`?]G`!/0);`B<`M0./`1L"?0WW%A0",&\$4A*P-D M6"`'D,M(MVWS+FY40%`X\!%P"6/!94,N,'E'02Z`3D-2+D-/30J%!1NQ`':0 M`P`0$``````#`!$0`````$``!S` at V\MI8Q>\`4``"#` at V\MI8Q>\`1X`/0`! 5`````0`````````#``TT_3<``'^C ` end Return to table of contents
Date: 10 Feb 1997 07:20:33 -0800 From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at axel.vigra.com> Subject: Re: White Labs Yeast Test Results [...lengthy cell count procedure deleted...] I cannot argue with the cell count Jim got, not can I disagree that the literature on the yeast might have been mislabelled as to cell count. Paul> I did a test brew with one sample of White Labs California Ale Paul> yeast. I did not trust their advice to pitch directly into my Paul> full five gallons of wort, so pitched the yeast into a 1/2 Paul> gallon starter wort of 1.040 OG. From a strictly Paul> macro-empirical viewpoint, the starter kicked in about like what Paul> a fully swelled pack of Wyeast would. I'll concede that I may Paul> have saved one day. The resultant fermentation in the five Paul> gallon brew proceeded about the same as it does normally in my Paul> brews. No better, no worse. As I said before, I have used this California Ale yeast at least a dozen times and all I do is warm it to room temperature and pitch it in 5 gals. of wort. It takes off in two hours or so for me every time. If you wanted to give it a fair test, you should have followed the instructions as provided. I have done this numerous times and I can say that the yeast behaves exactly as Chris says it should. Paul> As they say, "Caveat Emptor" The buyer does not need to beware with this product, it works well and consistently. As I said before, Chris expanded his market because he was flooded with demand from local brewers who love using his product. Yes, now that it has gone out of San Diego, the lack of a "born-on date" is a concern, but Chris is correcting that. dion - -- Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com http://www.vigra.com/~hollen Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:35:55 -0400 From: lachina at mindspring.com (Lorne P. Franklin) Subject: Heat Source; Adventures Await in China Hey, everyone. I've read discussions about every kind of heating source in this forum, except what fell into my lap last summer. While setting up a nanobrewery in the basement pantry, my father-in-law gave me a small apartment stove which he had removed from a rental property. It's an old Wellbilt gas range with the four burners spaced in a square with about 12" between them. With my pot placed in the center, the unit will bring 8 g of wort to a _vigorous_ boil in less than 30 min. I'd highly recommend that anyone looking to get off the kitchen range, and who has space for another stove somewhere in their living quarters, keep their eyes open for old, small apartment stoves. A lucky strike at a garage sale, junk store, or used-appliance outlet will get you a heat source better than propane cookers and immersion heaters, and possibly for less money. Any of you adventuresome brewers interested in setting up shop in China? Reading the _Southern Draft Brew News_ this weekend I came across an article stating that the supply of beer in China is far outstripped by demand. Magebreweries from the U.S. and Europe are investing heavily in the Asian beer markets with expectations that China will soon top the US as the biggest consumer of beer. (This as U.S. megas are faced with increased competition domestically and stagnant growth.) Wouldn't it be wonderful to ensure that the war for real beer expanded to China's growing market? It's seems to me that the place to open a brewpub is not on mainstreet America (there's already four there!), but in China. Think of all the cool beer names and labeling one could concoct! If anyone jumps on this, all I want as the "idea man" is airline tickets for one trip and free beer when I tour through the world's oldest civilized country! L o r n e P. F r a n k l i n Lachina Publishing Services lachina at mindspring.com 216/292-7959 (ph) 216/292-3639 (fax) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 97 11:39 EST From: eric fouch <S=eric_fouch%S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021+pefouch%Steelcase-Inc at mcimail.com> Subject: Botulism/Iso-alpha acid solubili Date: Monday, 10 February 1997 11:22am ET To: STC012.PREQUEST at STC010.SNADS From: Eric.Fouch at STC001 Subject: Botulism/Iso-alpha acid solubility In-Reply-To: The letter of Wednesday, 5 February 1997 0:52am ET HBD- I had a thought, OK more of a question, regarding the current thread on botulism toxins developing in improperly "canned" wort. What is the toxicity of a botulism toxin grown in a quart of wort, then diluted to 5 gallons (assuming an acidic and alcoholic medium created in the starter stops botulism activity) and enjoyed one, maybe five bottles at a time? Would the toxin be diluted to non-health threatening levels? Another note- Referencing Charlie P. in TNCJOHB on pgs 276-279, he recomends highly hopping the bottled "sterile" wort to inhibit bacterial growth. This is what I do. I would presume that the added hops drive the pH down to acceptable (for us) or unacceptable (for botulinum) levels. At any rate, if the starter is started quickly - ie not set out for hours at room temp, the yeast should far out pace the bacteria, not to mention the forementioned dilution effect. Not to sound too cavalier, but if it were really that dangerous, it seems we would have some anecdotal evidence by now. Dan Moshers musings on iso-alpha acids solubility in water: What of its solubility in the increasing alcohol in a fermenting wort? Are iso-alpha acids more or less soluble in alcohol? Eric Fouch Don't Worry- Be Hoppy Bent Dick YactoBrewery Kentwood MI Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:38:03 -0000 From: Graham Stone <gstone at dtuk.demon.co.uk> Subject: SS Air stone Can anybody in the UK tell me where I can get a SS 2 micron air stone? Or can one of you lovely American chaps let me know how I might obtain one, how much, where, when, etc. <G>? Thanks awfully! Graham Stone Portsmouth, UK Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 97 13:07:00 EST From: Adam=Fisher%SDL%MSDBED at vines.msd.ray.com Subject: OG? Hello, I'm new to the brewing scene and had a question about when to take the Original Gravity. I do partial boils and then add the wort to a primary filled with the remaining water. When exactly should I take the OG. My OG and predicted OG have been considerable off and I was hoping to fix the problem. Adam F. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:36:44 EST From: "Gabrielle Palmer" <gpalmer6.ford at e-mail.com> Subject: taking homebrew overseas Greetings Beerlings! I was hoping that someone here would have experience trying to take their homebrew overseas to another country. I'm hoping to take 6-8 bottles of my latest scotch ale to Scotland with me in June to give to the people whose house I'll be living in while I'm there, but I'm not familiar with the customs laws. Is it legal? If so, is there a limit to the amount that I can take? I've heard a few contradicting stories about this subject, but not from anyone with actual first-hand knowledge. All help is greatly appreciated... Cheers! Gabrielle Palmer Die Design Standards Cube: GB-M71, PDC, MD#270 Phone: (313)59-42107 PROFS ID: GPALMER6 Fax: (313)32-24359 internet: gpalmer6.ford at e-mail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 97 13:13:27 CST From: cseay at TUblue.pa.utulsa.edu (Chico Seay) Subject: Cats Meow/Brewery website Greetings. For the last month or so I have been having difficulty (read: can't do it) accessing The Brewery's website, which contains Cat's Meow (http://alpha.rollanet.org). Is there something that I don't know? Thanks. chico seay Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:14:02 -0800 From: "Brander Roullett (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com> Subject: results, and the recipe (soda) Sarah's Summer Soda - Spiced Apple Soda - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ~3/4 lb. Fresh Ginger, Chopped 1 tsp. Whole Cloves 2 2" sticks Cinnamon, Crushed 1 Peel Fresh Lemon Cut into small pieces 1 Peel Fresh Orange Cut into small pieces 6 cans Apple Juice Concentrate (cheap) 1 can Minute Made Limeade 2 Cups Honey Directions: - In a large brewpot, bring ~2 1/2 gallons of water to boil, and add ginger, peels, cloves, cinnmon, and reduce heat to med-me hi, and cover, for 30 minutes, stirring occasionally. - Pour the resulting mixture through a strainer to get the bits out, and dissolve the frozen juice, and honey. (this helps to cool it down too) - Strain the resulting mixture through a clean cloth to get rid of any pulpy bits that might clog the keg outlets. - Pour into the 5 gallon keg, and add enough cold water to get around 4-5 gallons depending on your tastes. - Cool, and carbonate. I set it at 30 psi for 1 1/2 days, and it was lightly carbonated, others have recommended much higher rates of carbonation, but I was going for a light fizzy taste. - Cool in a bucket of ice before serving. Notes: This was VERY well received, and I was informed that I WAS making this again for the summer events. J Brander Roullett(a-branro) aka Badger http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/ If on my theme I rightly think, There are five reasons why men drink, Good wine, a frein, because I'm dry, Or lest I should be by and by, Or any other reason why. -Pere Sirmond Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:22:24 -0500 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: ASBC IBU analysis John> Can anyone email me the ASBC procedures for determining John> IBUs? See http://realbeer.com/spencer/hop-analysis.html =S Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:42:02 -0500 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: Brew Kettle Questions >>>>> "Sornborger," == Sornborger, Nathan <nsornborger at email.mc.ti.com> writes: Sornborger,> I would suggest a modified keg, they tend to be Sornborger,> rather cheap. They also hold 15gal. so in case you Sornborger,> want to scale up..... Yes, but you *can* use a 10 gallon pot on the stove, and you definitely CANNOT use a modified keg. In fact, I get a better boil in my 10 gallon aluminum-clad stainless steel pot than I did from my "speckled" enamel-on-steel 8 gallon pot. I'm using a gas stove with an 11,000 BTU burner. =Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer at umich.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:44:03 -0800 From: STEVE.SNYDER at wwireless.com (Steve Snyder) Subject: Cleaning Kegs Collective, I have a couple of Coke kegs that I have been using for the last few years. I usually just clean them with boiling water, no clorine. This weekend before I kegged my latest efforts, while cleaning I noticed some patches of a white-ish discoloration on the inside. I put my hand in to feel it and it feels rougher than the surrounding area. Does anyone know what this is? Some type of oxidation? Is this going to hurt my beer? Is there a way to get rid of it? Steve Snyder Seattle, WA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:45:35 -0500 From: Tony Owens <ivy at fastlane.net> Subject: Lowering temp on Chico yeasts? Are there any advantages to be gained by lowering the primary fermentation temperature of the Chico yeast? I've read that optimum temperature is around 68 to 70. What if you dropped it to 58 to 60? Would this have a positive impact on the beer, in your opinion? Tony Owens Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:03:52 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Witbier In Homebrew Digest #2342 Kit Anderson <kit at maine.com> tells why he uses flaked wheat for witbeer: >Because grining hard red winter wheat is a real pain. Then you have to >gelatinize the starch. Flaked wheat is unmalted, pregelatinized, and won't >turn into cement when sparging. Plus, it tastes the same. (To me, anyway.) I've used flaked wheat, too, but for real authenticity, you could use easy-to-grind soft white wheat, as they do in Belgium (although in Texas, Celis uses the local, more easily available hard red winter). Or you could use soft red winter. The lower protein level of soft wheat is better for beer, too. Also, soft wheat's protein is a less elastic gluten than hard wheat. I don't know if that would make a difference in lautering or not. I've had good luck with both in that regard. Wheat starch doesn't have to be pre-gelatinized as it gelatinizes at mash temperatures (sorry, don't have reference handy). As far as taste goes, it's hard, of course, to tell which variable is responsible, but the only thing I changed deliberately (in other words, the rest is just batch to batch variation) between the 1995 ginger wit and the 1996 version was the wheat. I used 45% raw soft white in '95. and 45% flaked hard winter red for the '96. I felt that the version using soft white wheat had an easier drinkability. It was, well, softer. I don't know if that was the wheat, and if it was, if it was the fact that it was soft wheat or the fact that it was white, with the lower levels of bran tannins and phenolic that white heat has compared to red. It also scored a few points higher in the two competitions I entered each in. At any rate, the '97 version will have soft, white, winter wheat. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:40:07 -0400 (EDT) From: neumbg73 at snyoneva.cc.oneonta.edu Subject: house flavor or household microbe? Dear Collective: I am posting this for an internet deprived homebrewer.. In the last two years, all of my friend's beers have been experiencing the same off flavor(s), and one or two batches were seriously infected. he's sure his sanitary procedures are good. This started happening after his father started making about 3 loaves of sourdough bread per week in the kitchen. This involves leaving a quart of sourdough starter open in the kitchen overnight about once a week or so. Could this be causing his beer to develop a "house flavor", or a household microbe that is getting into his beer? Some sort of wild yeast riding through the air? To make conditions even less desirable sourkraut is also made and fermented in the same kitchen once a year. Could these conditions also contribute to stuck ferments? (TIA) *bernie neumann - kb2ebe *"The Secret Caverns Pico Brewery" neumbg73 at oneonta.edu ***"I don't believe in tag-lines"*** Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:55:31 -0600 (CST) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: fining, filtering, and aging/candi sugars Jim writes (quoting me): >< Dosing with ><gelatine or isinglass or filtering will actually SLOW the process of ><esterification (yeast turning alcohols and acids into esters) and will ><make the beer take LONGER to lose that "rough" character. >I wonder. Except for the filtering case, why does it matter where >the yeast is in the maturation vessel? Fined beer still carbonates >with the yeast on the bottom, why wouldnt reactions continue with >fined beer also? Should my 1.5 BBl unitank take longer to mature than >your 10 gallon fermenter or my 50 BBl uni? Not arguing, just musing. As you've noted, I believe that where the yeast is in the maturation vessel does matter. Consider the case of a very flocculent yeast like Wyeast #1968 and attenuation. If you rouse this yeast it attenuates quite a bit more (in a normal, reasonable fermentation time) than if you simply allow it to sink to the bottom on its own and rack off of it in a week. I believe, therefore, that suspended yeast (and recall that you can have thousands of yeast cells per ml and have the beer still appear clear -- 50,000 comes to mind, but I would check this before reuse ;^) will play a more active role in all the biochemical reactions that take place during fermentation and maturation (diacetyl reabsorption, acetaldehyde reabsorption, esterification, etc.). And: >Filtering gets a bad name among homebrewers and some craft brewers. >Shame. Bigfoot is filtered, then it is krausened. Same with Victory's >Old Horizontal Barley Wine. Personally I like to remove yeast exposed >to 10% alcohol asap and replace it with fresher less abused yeast. You're right -- I am unfairly villifying filtering. Indeed, there is a big difference between 5 micron polish filtering and 0.5 micron tight filtering. In addition to removing the yeast, very tight filtration strips a lot of the protein out of the beer, leaving it without body, mouthfeel, or head retention. I do still contend that filtering and fining before aging (unless you do kraeusen) will increase the time it takes to mature. Honestly, I have not done side-by-side batches, so I can't say whether it's a small increase or a large one. *** Ken writes: >Brander Roullett asked about Belgain Abbey type ales and Belgain Candi >sugar. > >I'm not sure if candi sugar is essential, however some type of sugar >seems important. I have used honey as a substitute. Brown sugar might >work as well. > >I'm on to all-grain now, but here's a recipie I have tried and liked. > >6.6 lbs x-light LME or 6 lbs x-light DME >1 lb 2-row pale toasted in the oven on a cookie sheet at 300 F for 10 >min, crush and mash at 153 F for 45-60 min. >1 lb honey (or clear candi sugar or brown sugar). <snip> White table sugar (refined cane or beet sugar) is a fine substitute for white (clear) candi sugar. They are both virtually all sucrose. Honey adds a little of its own character, but at a rate of 1#/5gal, it's unlikely anyone would be able to tell. Brown sugar contains molasses and would add a flavour that is not quite right for a Trappist/Abbey ale. Russell Mast posted that a friend of his made his own amber candi sugar by heating it. The problem is that if you let it cool in the pot, you may have trouble separating the sugar from the pot. If you try to pour it into the wort while still hot (not recommended) you can have some serious splattering going on. If anyone has successfully made dark candi sugar (without accident or injury), please post more details. Russell? Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:28:22 -0700 (MST) From: "R. Wayne McCorkle" <wmccorkl at psl.nmsu.edu> Subject: Tun design, revisited Last week, I asked about using PVC (although I typed PVS) as the "strainer" in my mash tun. I found out, as mentioned by Ken Schwartz, that PVC has a service temperature of 140 F. I tested this by assembling my tun, and added H20 at 170 F. After two hours time, the temp was down to ~160 and the PVC was indeed warped. Not so bad that it could not be used, but moving in that direction. Some might also recall that I had attempted to clean the PVC with an alcohol (I believe) based cleaner. The smell seemed to have dissipated after a few days, but I was still concerned. The other interesting fact I got from my test was that there were still traces of the cleaning compound. As I opened the lid of the cooler, I got a rather strong whiff of not only steam, but the smell associated with the cleaner. As I result, I mashed in the cooler, but lautered with my zappap (sp?). I plan to construct a new "strainer", probably out of copper. I just wanted to provided a data point for anyone considering PVC. Note that I did use PVC and not CPVC. Thanks to Ken Schwartz, Gregory Guy, and James Blue for their direct responses. Couple of other questiions - 1) When I added my grain to the strike water, my temp ended up at ~145. I added an extra 1/2 gallon of water at 170 about ten minutes later to get the temp to 151, where it stayed for the next hour. I would appreciate any comments as to effects this might have on the finished product. Particulars: Mashed 9 lbs of grain using 2.5 gallons of H20 at 170F. 2) I am a bit unclear as to making the determination of when to stop recirculating the sparged H20 at the beginning of the lauter process. I have read that one need to wait and get a "clear" runoff. I found very little difference in the clarity of the run-off from the beginning of the sparge and the end. Thanks for the help -- Wayne Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:47:34 -0500 From: Saul Laufer <laufers at vaniercollege.qc.ca> Subject: Wheat beer recipe My son bought me a birthday gift that consisted of 6.5 lbs of Belgian wheat malt and 1 lb of rice hulls. The person at the homebrew shop who supplied the recipe assured him that this would make a great "Blanche". I'm somewhat skeptical as I don't think that an all wheat malt has enough potential enzymes and that some barley (perhaps 20% - 30%) should be substituted. The hops recommended was 1/2 oz. (2.6 AAU) Hallertau for bittering and 1/2 oz for aroma. Also, no specific yeast was recommended. I brew with liquid yeasts (Wyeast). Would appreciate any comments or opinions before I go ahead with the brew. Saul Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:37:03 -0600 From: blacksab at midwest.net (Harlan Bauer) Subject: Yeast harvesting from an Open Fermenter Most of what I've read about harvesting yeast calls for taking the yeast from the bottom of the fermenter, but aside from a few passing acknowlegements of its practice, I've not seen any thorough explaination of exactly how to harvest yeast from the top of the fermenter. I tend to brew British-style ales using open fermenters and I'm curious about the practice. Anyone have any sources where the technique is thoroughly described? All I'm seeing in the books I own are pictures of large, open fermenters with a brewer holding a skimming tool and a short sentence under the photo stating that the brewer is skimming the yeast. Where is the yeast skimmed to? When is it skimmed? How much is taken? How much is left behind? TIA, Harlan ********************************************************************* * * * Harlan Bauer ...malt does more than Milton can * * Carbondale, IL To justify God's ways to man. * * <blacksab at midwest.net> --A.E. Houseman * * * ********************************************************************* Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:19:33 -0800 From: smurman at best.com Subject: Re: Botulism There seems to be some more common questions regarding botulism. First, the botulism toxin is odorless and tasteless so examining your wort will do you no good (I told you this is nasty stuff). Second, the presence of swollen tops does not imply a botulism problem. If you have a swollen lid, or a bad smell, then some bacteria has gotten into the preserve and caused a spoilage. It's very similar to a spoiled batch of beer. This is the main reason I would recommend using mason jars with a fresh lid. Please, don't trust my word. Take a couple hours and go to your local library and check out a couple of books. Convince yourself what you need to do to safely store wort for months at a time. SM Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:22:15 -0500 (EST) From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com> Subject: Re: Beer Yeast Bread > From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> > > I'd suggest boosting the yeast activity by making a sponge using the yeast, > all of the liquid, and 1/3 - 1/2 of the total flour and letting it ferment > for 1 - 3 hours before adding the rest of the ingredients. > > Keep us posted on your success. > > Jeff Jeff Wouldn't you want to add the sugar to the "sponge" to feed the yeast? _________________________________________________________________________ Arnold J. Neitzke Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com Brighton, Mi Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:09:07 -0600 From: Bill Giffin <billgiffin at maine.com> Subject: Wyeast temp. ranges Good morning all, Thanks to Jim Bentson for posting the temperature ranges for Wyeast. Many of the Wyeast yeast will perform extremely well outside of the listed range which I consider a bit conservative . I have had good luck with 1056 at 55F where the range starts at 60F. As strongly as the 1056 went at 55F perhaps it could even go lower. The high temp. for this yeast is 72F per the list and I think that you may even get away with a few degrees higher. My experience with this yeast is that is quite stable and clean over a wide range of temperatures. 1214 provided excellent results while fermenting out a trippel at 80F. Contrary to public belief the esters formed at 80F where less then when the same recipe and the same quantity of yeast were used at 65F. Many of the lager yeasts will ferment very well at temperatures 5 or more degrees below the low temp. of their range. I have had good results with 2124, 2206, 2308, 2278 and 2035 fermenting these yeast at 42F. These were not single one time events, but were repeated at least 5 or 6 times. Frequently the key to a successful fermentation is that the temperature be maintained at a constant. Yeast doesn't seem to take well to wide swings in temperature. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:07:16 -0500 (EST) From: "Steven D. Lefebvre" <slefebvr at zoo.uvm.edu> Subject: ADDING CARBONATES TO BREW H2O Greetings, I have been adding brewing salts to my water for years and I am consistently finding that Calcium Carbonate will not dissolve in my moderately soft water. Does anyone know the chemistry behind how to get it to dissolve? Thanks Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:15:02 -0800 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Subject: Pumpkin beer / wheat beer / hop oil extract question Howdy Hots! Chas asks about whether or not pumpkin needs to be mashed. It most certainly does! In my early days I made the mistake of just dumping a can of pumpkin into the boil. The resultant beer was clouded with a permanent starch haze that was quite unsightly, except to the bacteria and wild yeasts that could metabolize the starch! The bottles went >BOOM< two years later. I had forgotten about them... Also, try to get fresh pumpkin. Why used canned junk in your own brew? ------------------ Brad asks if you can obtain wheat beer yeast (specifically 3068) from bottled beer. Only if its homebrew. There is only one commercial Bavarian wheat beer available in the USA that has its original fermentation yeast in the bottle. That beer is Schneider Weisse (yes, they do call it "Weisse"). This yeast, as you can tell from tasting the beer, is NOT 3068. It is in fact 4 (at least) strains of yeast. I've tried fermenting with all 4 strains combined in the primary, with OK results, but not great. I don't know what Bavarian brewers actually use 3068. Even Weihenstephen's HefeWeizen doesn't taste like any of the beer I've made with 3068. 3068 makes a VERY bold beer. Nothing subtle about the bananas and phenolics. I find the bananas can be subdued (somewhat) by high pitching rates and a fermentation temp in the low 60's F (15.5-17.8C). ------------------------ I have a question about hop oil extracts, used to add aroma to fermented beer. Has anyone out there used them? Did you like the results? Did it also affect hop flavor or bitterness? Was the recommended 1/2 ounce per 5 gallons enough? Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:26:51 -0500 (EST) From: TEX28 at aol.com Subject: Wheats & Wits In HBD #2337 and #2342 Kit Anderson & Jim Busch comment on my Belgian Wit Recipe- 5# Belgium 2-Row 4# Malted Wheat .5# Flaked Oats KA < I'm sure this is a good beer but it will be truer to < style substituting flaked wheat for the malted wheat. JB < Why stop there? Use raw wheat for real authenticity. Perhaps someone can explain the proper usage of raw, flaked, malted, Cream of, or torrefied wheat grains. (I suppose this would also apply to oats). I chose malted wheat because the main grain in my bill is Belgian Pale 2-row with a low diastatic power (60). Does flaked wheat have enough enzymes for conversion? Do European brewers generally prefer flaked or raw wheat? - ---------------- Someone had asked about the proper amounts of orange & corriander in a Wit. I have found that 1/2 oz. dried Belgian bitter orange peel & 2 tsp. corriander seed (lightly crushed) provide just a hint of corriander & orange, more in the aroma & finish than the flavor. Add half of each the last 10 min. of boil & half in secondary (1 wk.). Chris Pertschi "Water into wine? Big deal..." -early brewmaster Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:53:00 -0800 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Subject: More botulism Hi again, I'm actually still not convinced that botulism poses a threat to canned wort, but I am concerned. According to Bergey's, some strains of Clostridium botulinum produce gasses (hydrogen, ammonia, hydrogen sulfide). This would be quite noticeable upon opening the supposedly sterile wort. Heck, the explosion from flaming the mouth of the bottle would tip you off! ;) Does C. botulinum behave this way in food, or can its presence be undetectable? Why is it that spontaneously fermented worts are not endangered by Clostridium? Is Clostridium strictly anaerobic (won't function at all in presence of O2), or are conditions in the wort just not conducive to its growth (pH, hop components)? According to Scientific American, bacteria start the fermentation process in Lambics. It takes several days before the yeasts get going and produce an environment not conducive to most bacteria, yet nobody worries about botulism toxin in Boon Gueuze. Interestingly, *basic* conditions (pH > 8.5) also inhibit growth. An atmosphere of 100% CO2 delays toxin production, and pressurized CO2 is lethal to all strains. Have Fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:13:04 -0600 From: rjlee at mmm.com Subject: Swedish Porter Looking for recipies on Swedish Porter. Private Email is fine; I'll repost a composit. TIA Randy Lee rjlee at mmm.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:19:49 -0500 From: danmcc at umich.edu (Daniel S. McConnell/DSMBook) Subject: YL corrections/W51 From: Jeff Renner in HBD#2341 <nerenner at umich.edu> Regarding "dropping" or early racking with splashing. >Dropping has become SOP for me with my stock bitter. It produces different >results with different yeasts. An additional advantage to dropping is that >the bottom crop of yeast from the second fermenter is really clean. My >standard yeast, more or less, is NCYC 1187 (YCKCo A10), which is a very >flocculant yeast, but I have done it with several YeastLab yeasts. 1187 >seems to produce more fruity esters with dropping. Ringwood (YL A06?), a >top cropper, produces even more diacetyl than otherwise, but seems to >really benefit given its high O2 needs. Jeff, I wouldn't correct you if you weren't so believable....but here are the correct and indisputable identifications. NCYC1187 =YL A10=YCKC A51 Ringwood =YL A09=YCKC A15 Both seem to have rather high O2 needs and benefit from extended pre-fermentation aeration and dropping. In addition, since both are very flocculant, resuspension on racking helps to finish the last few points of fermenation. These are very different yeasts mechanically. 1187 barely top crops and Ringwood almost climbs out of the beer. =-=-=-=-=-= Subject: YL W51 Question >I pitched the yeast at 65F and fermentation took place between 65F and >69F. I started noticing a hydrogen sulfide odor a day or two into the >cycle. Attributing the odor to the yeast, I continue the process and >racked into my secondary after about 5 days. After a week of >conditioning I bottled the brew. Last night I popped one open for >testing (after about a week) and there is still a hint of that "smell" >hanging around an otherwise pretty decent weizen. Is this something >that will condition out or should I dump it out and use the bottles for >something I can stand to bring under my nose. I'll go out on a limb and say that the sulfide aroma will vanish with time. The beer is still rather young. In most cases it is scrubbed out during the fermentation. You may want to try a different extract, but a clear answer would require knowing your pitch rates and areation techniques. DanMcC Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:21:36 -0500 From: dharsh at alpha.che.uc.edu (David C. Harsh) Subject: Skunked Miller/Pathogens in beer/Comment overheard Skunked Miller High Life- A couple years ago, our local club had guest speakers from Miller brewing company speak at a meeting. The claim was made that they can use clear bottles because they use hops with low alpha acids, but have high beta acid levels and that the beta acids do not skunk. Pathogens in Beer and Wort- I've never felt comfortable with Papazian's claim that "no known pathogen can survive in beer". I also note that CP generally provide no references other than his own books and Zymurgy, so I take most of his "facts" with a ton of salt. Granted, the acidity of beer makes this statement probable, but for wort I'm a believer in pressure cooking. I vaguely recall from college Biology that a fatal dose of toxin is on the order of 3 micrograms, but who knows if that number is accurate. Interesting Comment From Non-Beer Person- My department hires a student to work part time in our office. She was telling us about the beer she had at a local brewpub that has been opened in the campus area. The quote: "...this one beer was interesting - I didn't know you could make a beer taste like butterscotch..." I don't want to mention names, but the name of the brewery that runs this place rhymes with "Moldenberg" Dave &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& & Dave Harsh & & Bloatarian Brewing League - Cincinnati, OH & & & & "If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number & & of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an & & infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce & & all the world's great literary works in Braille." & &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& O- Return to table of contents