---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Heineken in Brown/Beer Yeast Bread (Chris Carolan)
  Stovetop Brewing Tips (Rich Hampo)
  Chalk (A. J. deLange)
  Hop Oil Extracts (George Schamel)
  Bioriginal Malt? (George Schamel)
  Cats Meow/Brewery website (Chico Seay)
  gravity of starters (Julio Canseco)
  conical fermenters ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Re: OG? (Oliver Weatherbee)
  Stainless Steel Pots ("WILLIAM R. RICH")
  Yeast experience (P. Edwards)
  Re: White Labs and Truth in Advertizing (Jim Liddil)
  Water Temps for Cleaning/Sanitizing (Rob Kienle)
  Mashing In ("Bill Giffin")
  Stone(d),OG comparisons, Newcastle ale,CaCO3 solution ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Brew Kettle Questions (Ron Gasik)
  Re: fining, filtering, and aging/candi sugars (Spencer W Thomas)
  Honey botulism, Clinit*st correction ("David R. Burley")
  Dark Candi Sugar ("Bill Giffin")
  Kegs on stove/rough spot in Corny/100% wheat beer/sulfur (George De Piro)
  carbonates/astringency/proteins and rests (2)/SNPA carbonation (korz)
  Subject: Extract/partial Belgain Abbey (Kenneth D Boivin)
  Off-flavor exorcism ("Kirk Harralson")
  HMGCoA reductase/Esters/oxygenation/hi gravity brewing (Steve Alexander)
  RE: Lowering temp on Chico yeast (erikvan)
  Re: Question about hop (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
  An HB cure for skunkiness ?? (Steve Alexander)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 03:40:58 -0600 (CST)
From: spiralc at ix.netcom.com (Chris Carolan)
Subject: Heineken in Brown/Beer Yeast Bread

Brown Heineken
On a recent trip to Amsterdam, my local hosts ordered a round of 
Heinekens in the restaurant. When they arrived in green bottles, I 
remarked that I was expecting brown. Their reply? "Oh, that's the 
Export."  Go figure. The local grocery stores sold large returnable 
green Heineken bottles that appeared to be about 24 oz. Those bottles 
were delvered to the stores in plastic milk crates. Efficient packaging 
all-around.  For anyone going to Amsterdam, get to La Belgique, on an 
alley behind the Nieuwkerk (New Church). This bar has 8 Belgian beers 
on tap and another 50 in bottles. (No affiliation. Just a staggering 
customer.)

Beer Yeast Bread
Some literature (BT) has suggested that bread yeast is selected for CO2 
production and that brewing strains are less than ideal.  I suspect 
that any of the massive top cropping ale strains would work best. My 
single data point with Ringwood yeast supports that idea. I maintain a 
sponge/starter from Ringwood that I replenish/feed in the following 
proportions.

1 part water
1 part starter
1 1/2  parts flour.

I dissolve 1 tsp of DME in the water, which provides the yeast with the 
maltose it knows and loves. Let it sit at room temp for at least 12 
hours after feeding. 
For the bread, I use about 275 grams of starter, 750 grams of flour, 
and 2 1/4 cups of water, and 1 tablespoon of salt. Good stuff.

Chris



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:16:01 -0500
From: rhampo at ford.com (Rich Hampo)
Subject: Stovetop Brewing Tips

Hi All,

Having just bought a new house (with all new appliances =:)
my wife was very concerned about not trashing our expensive
cooktop. I'd like to pass on a few tips I have discovered
over the last several years of stovetop brewing that will
definitely save you time, probably save your stove, and maybe
even save your marriage.

1) Start with an immaculate stove. Clean it BEFORE you brew. Any
food or grease splatters will be very difficult to remove after
having been cooked on during a 90 minute boil.

2) Cover as much of the stove with aluminum foil as possible (but not the
burners, duh...). Any boilovers or drips from the stirring spoon
become a non-issue since you just toss the foil when you are done.
Make sure the stove is clean underneath (see #1) because splatters
will still cook on underneath the foil due to the extreme heat.

3) Especially if your pot is small (I've got a polarware 10 gallon SS 
pot - Nyah, Nyah) use some kind of "boiling stone" to reduce boilovers. I use
a 3" diameter SS disk (from the expresso machine) but I've heard of
others using pennies or other copper items. The idea is to make the 
production of bubbles more uniform and reduce the really large
bubbles that splash wort all over the place.

These three things (especially #1 and #2) have shaved probably 30-40
minutes of arm-breaking cleanup time for me each brew session. 

I enjoy stovetop brewing because it allows me to still be part of the family 
while I'm brewing. I can bring the 7 gallons of sweet wort to a boil
in around 20 minutes with my pot straddling two burners (12K & 10K BTU).

Hope these hints help you out in your quest for better bear with less cleanup!

Richard Hampo
H&H Brewing Ltd.

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:49:44 -0500
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Chalk

Steve Lefebvre asked about how to get calcium carbonate to dissolve in
water. The answer is acid:  CaCO3(s) + 2H+ --> 2HCO3-(aq) + Ca++. This can
be any acid but hydrochloric, sulfuric phosphoric and lactic seem to be the
most popular among brewers. I have, in the past, advocated the use of
carbonic acid (bubbling CO2 through the water until it clears) because you
can then readjust the pH to a desired value simply by aerating (letting
excess CO2 escape).

The question remains as to why you want to dissolve chalk in your brew
water. The usual reason is to hold mash pH up when using strongly acidic
(high color) malts. In these cases using acid to dissolve the chalk into
the liquor partially defeats the purpose of using chalk in the first place
i.e. you are adding acid in order to dissolve something you want to use to
absorb acid. By partially I mean that 2 equivalents of chalk can "absorb" 4
equivalents of acid. The reaction above shows 2 equivalents of chalk
absorbing 2 equivalents of acid. When put into the mash tun 2HCO3- + 2H+
- --> 2CO2 + 2H2O absorbs another 2 (the exact numbers depend on pH). Thus
you give up half the neutralizing capacity of chalk if you dissolve it with
acid first. Because of this many people put the chalk into the mash,
monitoring the pH, rather than into the water. On the other hand when using
acid to dissolve the chalk you wind up with twice as much calcium in the
water and if increasing calcium is your goal, using acid is fine.

One final caveat. If a mineral or organic acid is being used you must be
cognizant that the anion of that acid will also be present in the beer. For
example, if sufuric acid is used, the sulfate content of the water will go
up and the effects of increased sulfate on hops will be noted. This may, of
course, be exactly what you want but in some circumstances it may not. This
is the one big advantage to using CO2 as the acid (it is a bit of a PITA).
It does not increase any anion other than the carbonate species which you
have already accepted that you will tolerate when you made the decision to
use chalk.

A. J. deLange
 - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.
Please Note New e-mail Address



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:09:27 -0700
From: George Schamel <george.schamel at den.mmc.com>
Subject: Hop Oil Extracts

George De Piro asks:
> I have a question about hop oil extracts, used to add aroma to 
>      fermented beer.
>      
>      Has anyone out there used them?  Did you like the results?  Did it 
>      also affect hop flavor or bitterness?  Was the recommended 1/2 ounce 
>      per 5 gallons enough?
>      
>      Have fun!
>      
>      George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)
> 

Hello George  (nice name),

I have used the Hop Tech hop oils and late hop essences.
These were the Premium British Blend, Pure East Kent Goldings,
Late Hop Essence Floral, and Late Hop Essence Spicy.  I was not
at all happy with the results in all cases.  I used then singly and 
in combination with each other and with hop pellets.  I do not
think that they provided a good hop character the beers (which BTW were
all pale ales).  Just my experience. I am interested in hearing other
opinions as well.

George Schamel,  High Altitude Homebrew,  10000ft and still brewin'
Conifer, Colorado

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:28:22 -0700
From: George Schamel <george.schamel at den.mmc.com>
Subject: Bioriginal Malt?

Hello All,

I just received an information packet from this company, Bioriginal
Malt.  They make organic barley malt and malt extract.  Has anyone 
out there (Is there anyone out there?) used this malt or heard of this
company.  The full name and address is:

Bioriginal Malt
Certified Organic Malt and Extract
Big River,  Saskatchewan, SOJ OEO

I find this interesting because they claim to have a warehouse in 
Denver, CO and the price per 25kg bag is $24.95 US if you buy 3 or more
bags.

Whoops re-reading this, it sounds like an ADVERTISEMENT.
Nope Standard Disclaimer Applies

George Schamel,  High Altitude Homebrew  10000ft and still Brewin'
Conifer, CO

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 97 8:34:12 CST
From: cseay at TUblue.pa.utulsa.edu (Chico Seay)
Subject: Cats Meow/Brewery website

Well, I'll be jiggered, but the day I submitted
the query about the Brewery website was the day
I began regaining access to it.  I have no explanation,
just relief and apologies for bothering the Brew
Brain Trust.  Thanks!

Chico Seay

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Date:         Wed, 12 Feb 97 09:48:48 EST
From: Julio Canseco <JCANSECO at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject:      gravity of starters


Greetings,

I have noticed that a 1.040 SG is referenced regarding starters. What
is the importance of this? Will a higher gravity shock the liquid yeast?
I normally add an overflowing cup of LME (syrup) in a half gallon of
boiling water and haven't bothered to check the SG. My starters seem
OK and the final beer is fine. Would someone please expand on this?
Is the starter SG related to the style of beer it is for?

TIA
                   julio............ legal aleian..
                     in athens, ga.

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Date-warning: Date header was inserted by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Subject: conical fermenters

stevek at propwash.co.symbios.com (Steve kemp) wrote:
>
>I would like to refine my brewing process to use only a 
>single vessel for fermentation. A cone shaped vessel 
>with a large valve in the bottom to drain off the trub
>and spent yeast would be ideal. I've seen the Fermentap
>product, but, would like something a little more industrial.
>Since I brew 12 gallon batches I would like at least a 15 gal 
>fermenter with at least a 1" valve in the bottom and a hole
>in the top for filling / cleaning that is sealable for an airlock.

The more recent issues of Brewing Techniques and Zymurgy
have ads for a company that makes baby unitanks.  Stainless,
in sizes of 10 to 20 gallons, they're designed to fit in a standard
refridgerator.  They look cool, but are probably out of most
people's price ranges.

****
re: making bread.

There was a pretty good article in the Nov/Dec 96 Brewing
Techniques about making bread, which touched on using spent
grains and brewing yeast.  Check it out.

Arnold asks:
>> From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
>> 
>> I'd suggest boosting the yeast activity by making a sponge using the yeast,
>> all of the liquid, and 1/3 - 1/2 of the total flour and letting it ferment
>> for 1 - 3 hours before adding the rest of the ingredients.
>Wouldn't you want to add the sugar to the "sponge" to feed the yeast?

Good question.  I thought that bread yeast can generally "ferment" flour, 
so you don't generally need to add sugar to bread (although you may 
want to).  I assume that ale yeast generally cannot ferment flour (starch).  

I don't see what the benefit of using beer yeast for baking would be; bread
yeast is the right tool for the job.

          - Bryan
            grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
            Nashville, TN


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:02:49 -0500
From: oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu (Oliver Weatherbee)
Subject: Re: OG?

Adam Fisher wrote in part:

>I do partial boils and then add the wort to a primary  filled with the 
>remaining water.  When exactly should I take the OG. My OG and predicted 
>OG have been considerable off and I was hoping to 
>fix the problem.

When mixing makeup water and a high gravity wort, it is very difficult
to get an accurate SG reading due to the density differences and resulting
stratification. After trying other people's equations with limited success,
I put together a wort dilution table from published numbers and several
of my own experiments. I have found this lookup table to be accurate
enough that all I have to do is take a gravity reading from my cooled
wort (after transferring to my carboy so I know my starting volume) and
then based on my desired starting gravity, the table tells me exactly
how much water to add. The table is at our club website (the url is in my 
 .sig below) under the Brewing Tips section. It is in html format which
you can print directly or, if you prefer, a Quattro Pro or Excel format
version is also available for download. If you don't have web access,
let me know, and I will try to email you a copy.

________________________________________________________
Oliver Weatherbee			oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu
			First State Brewers
	http://triton.cms.udel.edu/~oliver/firststate/
________________________________________________________

		

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:26:12 -0800
From: "WILLIAM R. RICH" <RICHB at nisewest.nosc.mil>
Subject:  Stainless Steel Pots

In HBD #2343,  Brad Anesi wrote
that he recently bought an 8 gallon
stainless steel pot with a "solid
aluminum sandwiched bottom" for
$135.  He also states that
"Boil-over problems have
effectively been eliminated due to
the solid bottom and increased
head-space".

>From my experience in brewing 5
gallon all-grain batches, an 8
gallon pot would be a little small.
 I have a 10 gallon stainless steel
Polar Ware pot which I picked up
for $129 from Williams Brewing that
seems to be about the right size. 
It does not have a "solid aluminum
sandwiched bottom", but I get a
very even heat across the bottom of
my heavy duty pot.  I'm not sure
that aluminum clad bottoms really
buy you that much if the pot is
made of a heavy gauge stainless
steel.

As far as boil-overs, I always get
a large head of foam early in the
boil (when the hot-break forms?).  
I can barely keep this foam in my
10 gallon pot, so I would hate to
have to keep to in an 8 gallon pot.

The bottom line is, I think
anything less than a 10 gallon pot
is too small for 5 gallon batches. 
Opinions?

Bill Rich
San Diego, CA
richb at nosc.mil


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:23:00 -0500
From: pedwards at iquest.net (P. Edwards)
Subject:  Yeast experience

Dion wrote:

> As I said before, I have used this California Ale yeast at least a
> dozen times and all I do is warm it to room temperature and pitch it
> in 5 gals. of wort.  It takes off in two hours or so for me every
> time.  If you wanted to give it a fair test, you should have followed
> the instructions as provided.  I have done this numerous times and I
> can say that the yeast behaves exactly as Chris says it should.

Well, in my 1/2 gallon, well-aerated, 1.040 OG starter at room temp, I
didn't see any appreciable activity until 12 hours after pitching.  I can't
imagine that this sample would have kicked in _quicker_ in the full five
gallons. And I was told this was a fresh vial, from that week's production.
It was shipped 2nd day air, and I picked it up the same day it arrived.
But other people I've talked to who've used this yeast say my experience
isn't atypical.

Part of the problem in this discussion is that Dion and I have different
defintions of "start of activity".  We've discussed this off-line and I
have a better understanding of what he meanns, but I think we're still
defining things differently.  Lack of a concrete defintion can lead to
confusion. I think we're still a few hours apart in our definitions.

His setup is different than mine.  He aerates with pure O2 for _much_
longer than I do (two hours at low pressure for him vs a couple of high
pressure 30-60 second blasts for me.  We use similar, if not, same
airstones, tho).

He concludes with:

> The buyer does not need to beware with this product, it works well and
> consistently.  As I said before, Chris expanded his market because he
> was flooded with demand from local brewers who love using his product.
> Yes, now that it has gone out of San Diego, the lack of a "born-on
> date" is a concern, but Chris is correcting that.

Well, it depends on your expectations. Mine are different and perhaps more
demanding than other folk. The new "born-on dating"  is welcomed and may
have something to do with the fact that I brought it up as a concern to a
local supplier when I first saw the product.  He relayed my concern to
White Labs. The literature the company supplies to the retailers says that
in 4 week old products, lag times may increase to as much as 20-24 hours.
Kinda tosses the "pitch right from the vial" instructions right out the
window, at least for me.  Not all of us live in the same city as the lab,
and get it within a few days of when it was packaged. And it may not "fly
off the shelf" everywhere. Viability can only go down over time, and
there's no easy way for the retail customer to tell how fast.

If y'all want to use White Labs, go ahead. Nobody's telling you not to.
But, as with any of the liquid yeasts on the market, you _really_ should
make a starter, IMHO.

Malt, water, hops and yeast.  We used to brew with generic hopped malt
extract and dry yeast of unknown origin. Specialty grains? what were those?
If we could get reasonably fresh hops we didn't know what the alpha acid
rating was.  We used whatever water came out of the tap.   We brew better
beer now because we've gotten access to information and become better
educated. We know more now about the first three than we do about the
fourth ingredient.  Don't take your yeast for granted.

- --Paul
  (pedwards at iquest.net)






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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:13:17 -0700
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: White Labs and Truth in Advertizing

Dion Wrote:

> Paul&gt; As they say, "Caveat Emptor"
> 
> The buyer does not need to beware with this product, it works well and
> consistently.  As I said before, Chris expanded his market because he
> was flooded with demand from local brewers who love using his product.
> Yes, now that it has gone out of San Diego, the lack of a &quot;born-on
> date&quot; is a concern, but Chris is correcting that.
> 
> dion

The fact that the product works well and consistently is not the issue
for me.  The fact that White Labs has a brochure that states the product
contains at least 250 billion cells is FALSE ADVERTIZING.  I'm willing
to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.  But at this time further
testing is on going and a statistically significant sample # will be
analyzed.  White labs has the option to either change the brochure or
get raked through the mud here.  

Jim

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:07:49 -0600
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: Water Temps for Cleaning/Sanitizing

I know I've seen a discussion of this subject floating around here
before, but apparently I've lost my notes on it and hope you all will
humor me with a recap.

At what temperature is water most effectively used for 1) Sanitizing vs
rinsing with chlorine; 2) Sanitizing vs rinsing with Iodophor; and 3)
Just Plain Rinsing/Cleaning (as in washing out the mash tun and boiler
after a session)?

Cheers4beers,
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:07:18 +0000
From: "Bill Giffin" <billgiffin at maine.com>
Subject: Mashing In

Top of the morning to ye all,

Add the crushed  malt to the water or add the water to the crushed 
malt that is the question.  

I now do the latter adding the water to the crushed malt and have 
found that far more controllable.  I do this with all method of 
mashing, infusion, step mash, mixed mash and decoction.  and have had 
good results this way.  


When I do an infusion mash I heat the water to around 180F and dough 
it into the mash slowly until I have about reached my strike point 
then all I have to do is to slow down the infusion of water so not to 
overshoot the temp. I want.

I also use a simple mash tun, actually a five gallon enamel pot, so if 
I miss it altogether all I have to do is put it on the fire and heat 
it up to where it should be.

All grain brewing is about as difficult as making biscuits from 
scratch.

Bill

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Date: 12 Feb 97 11:19:01 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Stone(d),OG comparisons, Newcastle ale,CaCO3 solution

Brewsters:

Graham Stone asks about a SS air stone:

> Can anybody in the UK tell me where I can get a SS 2 micron air stone?  Or 
> can one of you lovely American chaps let me know how I might obtain one, 
> how much, where, when, etc. <G>?

A lovely SS stone is available from the same people who make the "carbonator"
The company is  "Liquid Bread" in Orlando,  Florida. By phoning them I found
out:  e-mail to Jill will be picked up in the AM EST.  They do ship
internationally with a credit card or other means of paying and you can contact
her at:

lbread at iag.net

or Phone 407-888-3533 or Fax 407-888-3531
Ask for a catalog
No afffiliation yadda, yadda.
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Adam Fisher has been having troubles with getting a match between OG and
anticipated OG.  Other than correcting for temperature, the major point of error
( and much larger in most cases) is due to incomplete stirring of the make up
water to bring it to 5.5 gals or whatever in the fermentation vessel.  Stir
well. pulling the higher gravity wort off the bottom and mixing before taking an
OG reading.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Gabrielle Palmer says:

> I'm hoping to take 6-8 bottles of my      
> latest scotch ale to Scotland with me in June to give to the people whose

> house I'll be living in while I'm there, but I'm not familiar with the customs


Is this the proverbial "coals to Newcastle or what?"  Just kidding.  I have no
personal experience with homebrew, but have often carried lots of stuff into
Britain like booze, etc. I've carried in 6 packs of brandy in a clear shopping
bag in plain view without being bothered.  Just walk through the "Green Line -
Nothing to Declare" and you will not likely be bothered. Even if you are, the
worst penalty will be to pay a duty on it which isn't much. This is not really a
prime focus of the Customs folks who are pretty nice and would probably like to
hear about your homebrew.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Steven D. Lefebvre asks how to dissolve calcium carbonate to put into his mash
tun.  Use carbonated water, like the cheap soda water you get at the supermarket
or make your own with a "carbonater" type device and CO2.  Calcium bicarbonate
which you form is more soluble than the plain carbonate. It will likely dissolve
in the wort without this, however, when you use the black malts which lower the
wort pH..
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:38:33 -0600
From: Ron Gasik <ronster388 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Brew Kettle Questions

Spencer W. Thomas wrote:

>Yes, but you *can* use a 10 gallon pot on the stove, and you
>definitely CANNOT use a modified keg.

I recently completed a 2 level, natural gas brewing platform using
modified kegs. Prior to having my new system, I *WAS* using the modified
kegs on a "regular" natural gas kitchen stove and produced some of my
best brews this way.  By stradling the keg across 2 burners (the same as
you would with a 8 gallon speckled enamel pot), I could reach a strong
rolling boil in a reasonable amount of time.


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:05:57 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: fining, filtering, and aging/candi sugars 

Re: making dark candi

The obvious solution is to pour it out onto a greased marble slab.
Greased aluminum foil will do in a pinch.  But don't set the foil
directly on your "Formica(tm)" countertop, unless you want to scorch
it.  Melted sugar is very hot.

You could try doing without the grease, but then separating it from
the pouring surface becomes difficult.  

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: 12 Feb 97 12:23:40 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Honey botulism, Clinit*st correction

Brewsters:

On the botulism thread, I read recently that honey was a major source of
botulism spores. Which doesn't surprize me a bit, but I wonder how honey wheat
and mead makers deal with it.  DO they boil the honey losing all that
distinctive honeyness? Based on the discussions so far, I would be loathe to add
unboiled honey to a fermentation.  Comments?
- ---------------------------------------------------
I screwed up the other day when I said to add 10 drops of beer and 10 drops of
water in the Clinitest procedure. The point I was trying to make was how easy
the test was and only used a little beer in each test - unlike the SG
measurement method. The offical procedure calls for *5* drops of beer and 10
drops of water and this is what I use normally.  If you are below 1/2% or so in
a normal test, adding 10 drops of beer will make the test more sensitive, but
you have to divide the readings by two.
- --------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:29:52 +0000
From: "Bill Giffin" <billgiffin at maine.com>
Subject: Dark Candi Sugar


Good afternoon All,

>>Al K posted:
Russell Mast posted that a friend of his made his own
amber candi sugar by heating it.  The problem is that if
you let it cool in the pot, you may have trouble
separating the sugar from the pot.  If you try to pour
it into the wort while still hot (not recommended) you
can have some serious splattering going on.  If anyone
has successfully made dark candi sugar (without accident
or injury), please post more details.  Russell? <<

You surely do heat the sugar.  To make dark candi sugar
or at least an approximation of it.  Put the amount of
cane sugar and water equal to  about half volume of the
sugar in a heavy bottom sauce pan.  Bring the sugar to a
boil until it forms  large bubbles, now is the time that
you had better watch or the stuff will burn.  When the
sugar become a nice amber color pour the sugar into a
large cookie sheet lined with alumiun foil to cool. 
After it has cooled break it up and you now have "candi"
sugar to add to your Bel. Ales.

I have added the sugar while it was hot to the wort
coming to a boil and it didn't splatter, but it surely
did make the wort in the area of the hot sugar come to a
boil instantly.

Bill

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:42:17 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Kegs on stove/rough spot in Corny/100% wheat beer/sulfur

     Hi all,
     
     Spencer wrote that a drawback to converted Sankey keg boilers is that 
     they can't be used on a stove top.  That is contrary to my experience.
     Just don't touch the bottom of it or put it down on flammable/meltable 
     surfaces until it is cool.  The ring at the bottom gets REALLY hot, 
     and stays that way for a while.
     
     I just tell people that ring in my dining room rug was made when an 
     alien ship landed...
     ----------------------
     Steve asks about the rough spot he feels inside his Corny keg.  My 
     guess would be that it's the lettering that's stamped into the side of 
     the keg, near the top.  All of mine feel rough in that spot on the 
     inside.
     ----------------------
     Saul asks if wheat will convert itself.  Yes it will.  100% wheat beer 
     can be made, using rice hulls to provide a filter bed.  Be prepared 
     for a long sparge, even with the rice hulls.
     ----------------------
     Somebody (don't know who) wrote in about bottling a beer that had a 
     sulphury smell.  He/she was wondering if it would dissipate with time.
     
     I don't know.  I always allow hydrogen sulphide to vent from the beer 
     by lagering in a carboy until the odor is gone.  Once the beer is in a 
     closed system, the gas cannot escape in a reasonable amount of time.
     
     I don't know if yeast will break down hydrogen sulphide.  You may have 
     to hold your nose, or drink it when you have a cold.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:45:54 -0600 (CST)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: carbonates/astringency/proteins and rests (2)/SNPA carbonation

Here are a few more old topics that I couldn't comment on because of
the HBD crash...

wdcolins writes (quoting Mike):
>> I haven't had a chance to get the water tested yet. What sort of 
>> water condition would cause this? How would this effect brewing? 
> 
>The day before you brew, boil six gallons or so of the water and left 
>it sit overnight (covered).  Next morning, the minerals should have 
>settled out.  If that sounds like too much work (it can be), try <snip>

I just wanted to point out that if you are trying to settle-out carbonates,
to maximize the amount you remove, you should force-chill your boiled
water and decant off the sediment.  As the water cools & sits around, it
will pick up CO2 from the air which will lower the pH and subsequently
some of the calcium carbonate will redissolve in the water.  The reason
that the CaCO3 drops out of solution in the first place is because you
are boiling off the dissolved CO2.

***
Jean-Sebastien writes:

>Brown Malt astringency should balance the Belgian Aromatic/Biscuit
>malt sweetness.

I believe that astringency is perhaps the wrong discritor to use for
the flavour imparted by the Brown Malt.  Sharpness, I would say, but
not astringency.  In fact, you are *less* likely to get astringency
from Brown Malt than pale malts because polyphenols are the usual source
of astringency and darker malts lower pH which, in turn, decreases
polyphenol extraction.

***
PAUL writes:
>regimen, but without spending all day on a double or triple decoction.  (I had
>originally planned to use the 40-60-70 program, but the grist of this lager
>includes enough adjuncts that I thought the 122F rest was needed.)

Unless your adjuncts are high in protein, they shouldn't increase your
need for a protein rest.  For example, corn grits, rice, corn starch,
potato starch... all of these are low in protein and are referred to
as "protein dilutants" -- they are used by the Megabrewers to dilute the
excess protein they get from using 6-row base malts.  Wheat is high in
protein and raw and flaked wheat are more likely to *require* a protein
rest than malted wheat, in which some of the protein has already been
broken down by the malting process.

***
Mark writes, regarding leaving your "rest mash" in the protein rest
temperature range for a longer than desirable time when decoction mashing:
 
>doesn't the fact that you have the vast majority of the starch grits in the
>decoction vessel minimize this danger to a great degree?   i mean, i realize
>there are proteases and peptidases in the rest mash, but there's not really
>much protein in the rest mash for them to break down, is there?  it's in the
>decoction vessel, isn't it?

I'm afraid not... the protein is where the mash is... some in the rest
mash and some in the decoction.  There are plenty of proteins in the
rest mash and a long rest in the proteolytic range will indeed break
them down.  The reason that decoction mashes made great beer was because
the malt they used was quite undermodified.  This means that some
proteolytic action was not only acceptable, but it was necessary!

At the first Spirit of Belgium conference (1994?) Eric Toft (sp?) from
a brewery somewhere between Munich and Salzburg (formerly brewing in
Belgium, wbich is why he was speaking at the SoB...) said that many
German breweries were frustrated by the German maltsters "overmodifying"
the malts and therefore many were cutting back from traditional
triple-decoction mashes, to double- or even single-decoction mashes
because the beer was coming out without mouthfeel.
 
***
Chas writes:

>I have recently purchased a filter and would like to bottle condition my beers 
>ala Sierra Nevada.  My thought is, at the end of fermentation, to filter 5 
>gallons or so, and then add back a portion of non-filtered beer (I usually 
>make 11 gallon batches, so the extra beer is available).  The question is, 
>what is the minimum amount of unfiltered beer I need to add back to the 
>filtered product to boost the yeast population up to the level required to 
>achieve carbonation with priming sugar?  Anyone try this?  Any yeast gurus 

You don't really need that much yeast to get carbonation.  I haven't done
what you suggest, but my *guess* would be that if you used 10% unfiltered
beer, the beer would still carbonate within a month.  However, if you want
to bottle condition your beer as Sierra Nevada does, what you want to do
is filter your beer, force-carbonate it to about 90% of the final level
you want, then add fresh yeast and only add 10% of the normal amount of
priming sugar.  That's what SN does.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Tue, 11 Feb 97 11:11:14 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at msn.com>

From: kboivin at juno.com (Kenneth D Boivin)
Subject: Subject: Extract/partial Belgain Abbey

Brander Roullett asked about Belgain Abbey type ales and Belgain Candi
sugar.

I'm not sure if candi sugar is essential, however some type of sugar
seems important.  I have used honey as a substitute.  Brown sugar might
work as well.
 
Candi sugar is nothing more than highly refined cane sugar that has been 
cyrstalized on a string, the light version is the same as good ol' C & H. The 
dark candi sgar has been carmelised, (see the archives for ways to do it 
yourself)
 The reason for sugar in Belgian ales is to add fermentables, and to lighten 
body. By fermenting out completely a couple of pounds of sugar in a Tripple
will boost alcohol while leaving a lighter body than we expect from other 
high-gravity brews. (Barley-wine, Strong Scotch Ale etc.) Honey can contain as 
much as 25 % unfermentable material, and many types will contribute color as 
well. Brown sugar is regular white sugar with mollassas added. I don't think 
it is a traditional Belgian adjunct.

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 97 16:42:16 EST
From: "Kirk Harralson" <kwh at smtpgwy.roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Off-flavor exorcism

>From what I understand, certain undesirable conditions during 
fermentation will produce "higher", or fusel alcohols in the finished 
beer.  Some of my, er, earlier beers tasted like you put a shot of 
lighter fluid in the glass with the beer.  Some of my friends thought 
I was making really, really strong beer, when my calculations showed 
alcohol content less than Bud.  Now, if this is the case, my 
theoretical question is this:  Can these fusel alcohols be reduced in 
the same (or similar) manner as Jack S. (and others) have suggested 
for making non-alcoholic beers?  This process reheats beer after it 
has fermented to a point high enough to evaporate alcohol, but leave 
*most* everything else (most people who have tried this report that 
hop character is also lost in the process).  I don't know the boiling 
point of fusel alcohols, but if it is within the range of ethanol, 
wouldn't the fusels be eliminated as well?  I'm sure other by-products 
are involved, but if you could eliminate 75 - 80% of the problem, this 
may be a way to salvage a batch.  Also, is there any other off-flavor 
by-products that could possibly be reduced or minimized by this 
technique?  I have always assumed that off-flavors from bacterial 
infections or poor fermentation conditions were a permanent defect.  
Again, this is only a theoretical question; I'm not even sure I would 
go to the trouble to do this.  I'm also not suggesting this as an 
alternative to controlling fermentation conditions -- eliminating the 
cause of a problem is always easier than eliminating the problem 
itself.  However, if it is possible to salvage a NA beer rather than 
dumping 5 gallons down the drain, I may be tempted to try it.

Kirk Harralson
Bel Air, Maryland


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:05:37 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: HMGCoA reductase/Esters/oxygenation/hi gravity brewing


In HBD #2340 A.J.deLange responds re HMG-CoA reductase enzyme
involved in production of yeast sterols ...

>>This rather than the mevalonate build-up may be
>>the controlling factor in yeast too.
>
>Could be at least part of it. While I'm aware that this mechanism is
>recognized I don't believe that its importance has been fully established

You're right A.J., that phosphates are involved in modulating the
activity is clear, but the details of this are not (circa 1996).
HMGCoAreductase synthesis is the other part of the control as you
state.
- --

Back to the big picture so we don't lose everyone. Acyl-CoA in yeast
is involved in the primary chemical mechanism of ester production in
beer.  If your yeast are filled with Acyl-CoA, some of your alcohols
will be converted to esters.

Acyl-CoA is used in many of the biochemical pathways in yeast (and
most other organisms).  Two important syntheses requiring Acyl-CoA are
the creation of sterols and the creation of lipids.  Both sterols and
lipids are required to build yeast cell walls.  No sterols or lipids
means no new cell walls which means thinner cell walls and less/no
yeast growth.

To get from Acyl-CoA to sterols requires oxygen.  To get from AcylCoA
(or a variant - MalonylCoA) to at least some lipids (unsaturated fatty
acids) also requires oxygen.  This seems to cover the major
requirements for oxygen in yeast.  Aside from lipid and sterol
synthesis yeast seem to live happily anaerobically.

If we cut off the oxygen supply from yeast the ability of the yeast to
synthesize sterols and oleic acids is impared, so the AcylCoA builds
up in the yeast cells and is available to increase ester production.
This is why esters are a potential problem in hard to oxygenate high
gravity brews - like Rob Moline's recent note on barleywines.  This is
also why open fermentation, as pointed out by David Burley, can lead
to low ester levels.	

A.J.deLange continues ...
>[....] I would, thus, expect more esters in a beer
>where sterols had been supplied. There has been lengthy debate on whether
>cold trub should be removed or not with, if I recall correctly, the general
>consensus being that it should be, from lagers at least, if the cleanest
>result is to be obtained.

This depends. *IF* the feedback control mechanism for the lipid or
sterol synthesis reduces the amount of AcylCoA or its precursors - or
alternatively if the control occurs at or after the AcylCoA is
available.  As an anology, you can stop the flow of water down your
drain by either plugging the drain or turning by off the faucet.  Both
stop water from draining away, but the former method causes a
'pooling' of water, and eventually side effects.

I have several sources M&B Science, 'Biology of Microorganisms' Brock
1974, and several of the references in Andy Walsh's ester paper that
note that ergosterol and various unsaturated fatty acids (oleic,
linoleic and linolenic) added to wort separately improve yeast growth
AND reduce ester production !!!  (BTW - cold trub does contain
linoleic and linolenic acids).

This suggests that supplying yeast with the fatty acid and sterol
products they would normally synthesize prevents pooling of AcylCoA
and also permits anaerobic yeast growth.  Like turning off the faucet
instead of plugging the drain.

Practical implications ---

If this is correct then it might advantageous to eliminate all wort
aeration and oxygenation and instead add ergosterol and oleic acid as
a yeast nutrient/growth factor.  Decreasing the amount of additives
would increase the amount of esters formed, when desired.  The
non-aerated wort wouldn't suffer negative effects of oxygen uptake,
yet the yeast could grow normally and the esters can be reduced.  This
might be a big improvement for high gravity brewing.

Experiments are obviously needed here.

Steve Alexander


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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:18:11 -0600 (CST)
From: erikvan at ix.netcom.com
Subject: RE: Lowering temp on Chico yeast

Tony Owens wrote:

>Are there any advantages to be gained by lowering the primary
>fermentation temperature of the Chico yeast?  I've read that optimum
>temperature is around 68 to 70.  What if you dropped it to 58 to 60? 
>Would this have a positive impact on the beer, in your opinion?


Tony,
	
	I always ferment ales at around 60 deg., with every strain. Doing 
so will not harm the beer at all, in my own opinion. In fact, you will 
probably have a "cleaner" beer, because at lower fermentation temperatures,
less off flavors, such as fruity, butterscotchlike(diacetyl), cidery, 
grassy(acetaldehyde), or even the aroma of rotten eggs, occur. Fermenting 
at lower temperatures will also lower the risk of bacterial contamination 
and propagation, which prefer warmer temperatures. But keep in mind, if the 
environment is too cold, activity will be much lower, or stop completely. 
Also, upon completion of fermentation, yeast will settle out better, leaving 
you with clearer beer. So around 60 deg won't hurt your beer, but going down 
to 50 deg and lower won't help, unless your lagering. 
In my opinion, keep it around 60 deg.

Good luck with your brewing,

Erik Vanthilt

The Virtual Brewery
HTTP://www.netcom.com/~erikvan/brewery.html
News, recipes, hints, monthly newsletter and more...






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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:21:00 -0300 (GMT-0300)
From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at elmer.fing.edu.uy>
Subject: Re: Question about hop


 Dear friends,
I posted the following message in the list but have not received any 
answer. Is there anybody out there who has information about a hop name 
Strickle-Bract.

> I would appreciate if any of you can send me information about a certain 
> hop known by the name of Strickle-Bract or something similar. I need 
> alpha acid content, whether it should be used for aroma, flavor or 
> bitterness, origin, etc. Any comment will be welcomed.
> Thanks.
> Jorge Blasig

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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:50:15 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: An HB cure for skunkiness ??

All,

   I came across a patent application in a food sciences book that
describes adding 0.5 ppm to 5 ppm of zinc to wort (added as zinc
sulphate) to decrease hops skunking.  The claim is that the zinc
fortified wort would cause the yeast to expel a large amount of H2S
(rotten egg odor) which is scrubbed by the CO2 escaping.  This reduces
the amount of sulphur in the finished beer and the skunking reportedly
needs sulphur for one of the intermediate steps.

   I have no idea whether this is effective or not, but it might be
worth a try for that summer quaffing beer.

Steve Alexander


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