---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Stainless false bottom vs. copper manifold ("John W. Reese")
  RIMS System (JONATHAN BOVARD)
  Chlorine and iodophor in the dairy industry (Al Stevens)
  wasted band width- (kathy)
  Swedish Ale/Porter (rjlee)
  Recirc and CFChiller. (Varady)
  Re:Italian Beer Scene/(Bierre de Garde) ("MASSIMO FARAGGI")
  Fermenting in 10 Gal Cornys (George Schamel)
  Re:Bierre de Garde (Kit Anderson)
  AHA/AOB: the $100,000 Question ("Nathan L. Kanous II")
  Counterflow Chiller / Trub Removal / Ray Daniels book ("Nathan L. Kanous II")
  Summer Brewing (LaBorde, Ronald)
  REgarding natural alcohol contents (Shelly Marshall)
  Counterflow clillers and trub removal... (Jim Cave)
  Newbie question - "True Brew" Stout ("RTALBOT")
  AHA (Jim Cave)
  Judgement Call ("John Penn")
  Chiller length/Flames and abuse cycle (Dave Riedel)
  Re: brew dogs (Lou Heavner)
  RE: AHA yow yow ("Bridges, Scott")
  recipe (Nathan Moore)
  wort clarification, ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Composition of extract from steeped versus mashed grains (Patrick Stirling)
  Canadian Amateur Brewers Assoc. event/competition (Eamonn McKernan)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 04:14:11 
From: "John W. Reese" <reese010 at maroon.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Stainless false bottom vs. copper manifold

Tom Neary writes:
>My question is what is better for the mash tun 
>- a SS false bottom or a copper manifold.  
>I have heard varried comments about both.  
>One being that if using a false bottom and 
>applying direct heat to the tun you must recirculate 
>the wort.  

Considerations:
1) Free oxygen/HSA, a.k.a. contamination from 'dirty' copper.

Theory: Copper has been cited as a source of free oxygen ions 
in hot wort,possibly causing HSA.  SS does not introduce
oxygen into hot wort.

After some reading and correspondance with Andrew Walsh, who
has written about copper in brewing for HBD in the past, I
conclude that free oxygen/HSA is NOT a reason to avoid
copper in brewing IF copper surfaces are cleaned with 
a light household acid like distilled vinegar immediately before
brewing, then rinsed with de-oxygenated, de-chlorinated water
(in other words, your brewing water, which you boil before
mashing and sparging).  This will take off the tarnish on the
copper, which probably is the source of oxygen ions in
hot wort.  It also warms the mash tun/lauter tun before
the mash is introduced, thus keeping it closer to strike temp.
Copper will oxidize quickly, so it is best to do this just 
before brewing.  Keep tap water away from your freshly cleaned 
copper.  Chlorinated, oxygen-rich tap water tarnishes copper.
Given the preparations 
I and many other brewers go through before a brewing session,
maintaining copper equipment well costs almost no extra 
effort or time.  I haven't even started on the difficulty or
expense of working with SS...

2) Scorched wort/heat distribution.

Theory: The specific heat of water (wort collected in the false
bottom)is lower than grain, so using water
to heat grain is inefficient.  Scorching happens because you 
have to over-heat water/wort to compensate for its inefficiency 
as a heat distribution mechanism. This problem may be
overcome by aiding heat distribution through recirculation.

SS is a poor heat conducter and prone to scorching.
If the floor of your false bottom lauter tun is SS, you will have
quite a job keeping hot spots from scorching wort. As you
draw wort off the mash you also draw heat away from the system,
increasing the need for heat and thus magnifying heat transfer
problems. 

An even greater problem than scorching is associated with unreduced 
starch.  When ambient temps reach 176 C, starch granules collected 
under your false bottom (I usually get a half inch of this stuff) burst 
and release unreduced starch into the sweet wort. This is harder to avoid 
than scorching.

Copper is far better than SS for heat distribution.  A slotted
coil of copper wrapped tightly on the bottom of a round SS pot
will a)conduct heat away from the SS floor of the lauter tun
and distribute it directly into the mash; b)conduct heat away from
hot spots; c)increase the heating 'surface' of the lauter tun 
several times; d)keep starch granules and mash from coming into direct 
contact with the hot floor of the lauter tun.  Get a 20' coil of
soft .5" O.D. copper, take it out of the box and fit it to the
bottom of your lauter tun WITHOUT BENDING IT, so that the entire
bottom is covered with a single layer copper coil. Use a power
tool to hack slots in the copper, bending it as little as
possible.  Once you bend soft copper you'll never get it back to
a tight coil.


|||John W. Reese|||



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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 20:18:28 +1000 (EST)
From: JONATHAN BOVARD <j.bovard at student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: RIMS System


Has anyone in Australia ever made a RIMS system from local parts?
any correspondence or information would be great.

JB Australia


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Date: 26 Feb 97 06:49:56 EST
From: Al Stevens <72704.743 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Chlorine and iodophor in the dairy industry

This discussion of chlorine vs iodophor keeps coming up. 
I understand the arguments about  bleach and SS, but then I am
confused when I look at the dairy industry. Your average dairy farm
has enough stainless piping and tanks to make any home brewer green
with envy. Why then, is the most common dairy cleanser, chlorine ?
These guys for sure do not have money to waste, and would not risk
their investment just to use a cheaper cleanser.

That being said, the other popular cleanser is iodophor, and it is 
readily available at any farm supply store. The last time I bought some,
( a 4 liter jug lasts a long time) it ran about $12.00 Cdn for 4 liters.
I think that the homebrew shops buy it this way and then repackage
it at an enormous markup.

Are there any metalurgists out there that could tell me why chlorine
is not bad for the SS that is used in the dairy industry, but bad for 
cornelius kegs?


Al Stevens
RR #1 Almonte
Ontario, Canada


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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:22:07 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: wasted band width- 

Where does the wasted bandwidth go?  My Sunday post  about the BT
article on Little Apple made it out on Wednesday.  Wasted bandwidth
lengthens the Que.  If you just gotta...make the scolding private.

Does dropping leave behind working yeast populations or is all the
bottom yeasts "retired"?    Cheers...jim booth, lansing, mi.


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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:34:44 -0600
From: rjlee at mmm.com
Subject: Swedish Ale/Porter

I see that WyEast has a Swedish Ale yeast out and I have seen some off
hand references to Swedish Porter. What I haven't seen is a description
or recipies on the style. Please send me some of each (bottles, too, if
you'd like ;)

I'll summarize back to here..

Tia

Randy Lee
rjlee at mmm.com

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:37:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Varady <vectorsy at netaxs.com>
Subject: Recirc and CFChiller.

>>separate it varies (see below). I think the option of recirculating
>>cooled wort back into your brewpot is probably a little too hazardous
>>from a bacteriologic (sp?) point of view and will also take so long that
>>the benefits of using a CF will be lost.
>
>First all discussion on this thread is supposition, yours and mine, 
>because I don't know anyone who has tried this. I hope to borrow a 
>cf chiller and test it out, however until then you and I will be 
>debating opinions. Mine being that recirculating the wort back into 
>the kettle will give a cooling rate much faster than an immersion 
>chiller (without the need for physical agitation and its associated 
>danger of HSA) but not as fast as the straight cf chiller.

*This is reposted from HBD 2335 (sorry) but relevant to the discussion:

>>I run my wort into a cf chiller and use a pump to recirculate it thru the
chiller and back to the kettle just at the surface. I run the water on
very low flow and the wort on high flow. I get one 6.5 gallon carboy full
of water at 140+F, one at 120+F and a third at 100+F (each carboy takes
about 10 mins to fill at the water flow rate). This water with bleach
sanitizes the carboys. By the time the second one is full, the first one
is emptied and rinsed. By now the wort in the kettle is about 100F so I
turn off the pump and put a small piece of ranking cane on the out hose.
This piece of cane has 4 pin holes drilled in the side and is sealed at
the bottom (by heating and squeezing). I stick the hose in a carboy and
turn the pump on high. The wort is aerated as it sprays agianst the sides
of the carboy chilled further to a cool 64F. This uses a total of 25
gallons of water to chill 12.5 gallons of wort in 30 mins.<<

I use some whole leaf hops in each batch to catch break and pellets hops.
I have not had any infections and have done this on over 30 batches. It
has become SOP in the boneyard. I basically love my pump and have found
many uses for it.

John Varady          http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html
Boneyard Brewing Co.          "The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program"
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow."


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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 06:01:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "MASSIMO FARAGGI" <maxfarag at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:Italian Beer Scene/(Bierre de Garde)

Kenny gives me the chance to spend a few words about Italian beer scene...

Reading Kenny's post you could get the idea that in Italy we use to drink beers
as strong as our wines, but I must say it is a wrong impression. 
First of all, I think 80% of Italian (modest) beer consumption is of locally
produced beers. Almost all italian beers are pale lager or pilsener, many of
them are good without being exceptional; they are about the same level of
famous mainstream european lager with the advantage of being fresh. BTW,
Heineken is produced locally and is considered to be an italian brand (Heineken
Italia S.p.A.). Tuborg, Carlsberg and other are locally produced under license.
The main down side of italian beer production is the lack of variety; the most
distinctive brew is perhaps Moretti "La rossa" ("The Red"), not widely
available; at about 7% ABV is the STRONGEST italian beer I know. Even more
difficult to find is "Splugen Fumee" (a pale smoked bock), which I could taste
15 years ago! Apart frome these there some dark lagers in not a particular
style; no dopplebocks, weizen or ales.
When we come to imports, again most are mainstream international lagers from
Corona to Bud to better German examples. The remaining small percentage of beer
consumed are the true classic specialities from Europe. It is a quite small
market segment but it is the only one which is increasing.
There are some - not many - "bars" sometime called "Pub" which can offer over
150 foreign beers; the most fashionable are the Belgian ales. You can even find
micros like La Binchoise or Abbaye the Rocs; all the trappist except the true
Westvleren; or even Rodenbach. Chimay Blue is available almost in every "Pub".
British ales were more fashionable 15 years ago but are coming back, notably
Ushers, Marston's and Sheperd Neame (sp?). And Guinness, of course. 
Many Belgian ales are in the high alcohol range; to partially agree with Kenny
I noticed also some new import lagers at > 10% ABV, very much attenuated and
not particularly interesting (together with a new wave of tasteless "Ice
beers").
Micro's and brewpubs: never found, but I was told that there could be maybe
half a dozen.
To sum it up, you could have a good choice of beer if you can find them, but I
suggest any US visitor in Italy to go after WINE instead, and go on with your
european tour with a visit to Belgium and UK...
Anyway I am happy to help about beer, wine and food any HBder who is coming to
visit Italy (do you know, Kenny, that 60% - or was it 70%? - of the WORLD
ancient artistic heritage is here in Italy? and I bet 50% is hidden or lost
somewhere in the dark cellars of some museum...) 
I hope this was interesting to somebody altough a bit off-subject of
homebrewing; BTW I was forgetting to tell you which are the very best Italian
beers... mine of course!! :).

Thanks to all the people who helped me with the meaning of "skunk". (To Andy
Kligerman: I hope you received my post; I had some trouble with my email
service recently.)
Cheers.
MAX

P.S. There is one more point of MY interest about beer availability here: why
can I get here even a tiny belgian micro ale and never, say, a SNPA or a Samuel
Adams? I am always reading in HBD about hoppppy IPA's, barleywines, smoked
porter and all I can get from USA is a Bud or a Miller! I could just find (just
once!) Anchor Steam and Porter - which were good. Tell them there is an
interesting market here (well maybe there isn't - but give me a chance!). 

Massimo Faraggi       GENOVA - ITALY
maxfarag at hotmail.com

- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:20:36 +0000
From: George Schamel <george.schamel at ast.lmco.com>
Subject: Fermenting in 10 Gal Cornys

Hello all,

I asked a question about fermenting in 10 gallon cornys a few days
ago and I thought a summary of the responses might be appropriate.

The question was "How much wort can you ferment in a 10 gal corny
without excessive blowoff?"

Now this is an open-ended question because variables such as the
wort original gravity an yeast type affect blow-off but I did get 
three responses:

1. Dion fills a 5 gal corny to the weld line and "doesn't lose too 
much".

2.  Pat puts 7.5 gal in a 10 gal corny on top of yeast (w-1968) from 
his last batch and has less than 1quart loss (my interpetation of his
description).

3.  Don guesses he can get 9.5 gal in the corny with an unspecified
amount of blow-off.  It sounds like he often leaves more head space
so that he gets no blowoff.

Thanks for the input guys, I'll use this method next batch.

George Schamel,  High Altitude Homebrew - 10000 ft and still brewin'
Conifer, Colorado

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:28:13 -0500
From: Kit Anderson <kit at maine.com>
Subject: Re:Bierre de Garde

Andy Kligerman asked for a bierre de garde recipe. Here is an article I
posted here a few years ago. This is a great beer.

Bierre de Garde
by Kit Anderson

Since winning my first best of show at SNERHC (Southern New England
Regional Homebrew Competition) with a rare style 
(bierre de garde), my life has not been the same what with having to 
unlist my phone, going out in public with dark sunglasses, writers' 
cramp leading to carpal tunnel syndrome from having to continuously 
sign autographs in the supermarket, product endorsements, and a string 
talk show appearances. I have decided to expose my secrets in the hope 
that others will have similar success and my life will return to a 
somewhat normal state.

It was originally a farmhouse ale brewed in small batches by 
farmer/brewers in the Flemish speaking area of northern France. By 
WWI, many brewers moved to bottom fermenting yeast but kept the 
fermentation relatively high (60F). Locals would buy the beer out of 
primary and allow secondary fermentation in crocks at their homes.

As a style, it is extemely variable. It is similar to the "red beer" 
phenomenon in that you have a great deal of leeway in what you throw 
into the kettle since it is not a specific style. Consider it a beer 
typical of this region rather than the overly specific AHA definition.

Looking at the largest selling commercial imports, they have an OG of 
1060-1074. 5.6-6.6% ABV. There should be an ale like fruitiness, but 
restrained. The accent is on malt, usually of a spicy, aromatic 
specification. Vienna malt is predominant grain in the mash. A long 
vigorous boil is used for carmelization and the saccharificaton 
temperature leans towards a dextrinous wort. The color is 35-40 EBC. 
Hops are spicy, but soft. 22-30 IBU using Brewers' Gold, Hallertau, 
Spalt, and Hersbruck. The water should be soft. Some people insist on 
cellar characteristics of oak or corkiness. Lagering at 35F for one 
month leads to smoothness. Commercial companies usually produce 
several beers of increasing strenghts and colors as well and stronger 
winter beers going from deep gold 4.5% ABV to 7%ABV dark winter beers.

My recipe is:

Vienna          9 lb
Crystal 80      .25 lb
Wheat           .5 lb
Aromatic 	.25 lb

Mash per Dr. Fix (40-60-70C).

N. Brewer       .5 oz   8.8%    60 min
N.Brewer 	.5 oz   8.8%    20 min
H. Hallertau    .5 oz   5.25    2 min

Boil 120 min

Yeast Labs' Munich Lager
26 IBU
16 Lovibond- 40 EBC
OG 1063
FG 1015
Primary 5 days  at  70F
Secondary 14 days  at  45F

Best of Show at SNERHC. Judges comments: Delicious, creamy. You 
captured the earthiness this style requires. Very bright. Head stays 
to the end of the beer. 41 points.

- ---
Kit Anderson			"Welcome to Northeast Texas-
Bath, Maine			a survival guide for Texans in New England"
				http://members.aol.com/garhow1/kit/index.htm

Maine Beer Page			http://www.maine.com/brew	
				


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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:42:49 +0000
From: "Nathan L. Kanous II" <nkanous at tir.com>
Subject: AHA/AOB: the $100,000 Question

Randy,

You understand completely the $100,000 question.  

Nathan

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:55:20 +0000
From: "Nathan L. Kanous II" <nkanous at tir.com>
Subject: Counterflow Chiller / Trub Removal / Ray Daniels book

George DiPiro states:
>I have had good results removing cold break by using a trub sack.  I
>use small cotton bags (homemade).  I boil a bag, stuff it inside the
>neck of the fermenter, and run the wort from the chiller through it.

Curious, could you get away with one of those "permanent" coffee filters?
You know, those "gold" kind.  I use one to strain yogurt to make yogurt
cheese.  I thought about using it exactly as you describe in my last beer
but didn't feel I knew enough about cold break to remove it.  

If you think it will work, I'll try it next week.

On another note, Jethro tells us:
>Attended the Craft Beer Institute Seminar on Recipe Formulation in Kansas
>City yesterday, led by Ray Daniels. Highly recommended as is Ray's book,
>Designing  Great Beers. 

Jethro, what is the ISBN for this book?  I think many of us would like one
but I have not seen such a book in homebrew stores.

TIA!  :^)

Nathan

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:44:50 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Summer Brewing


>From: "Rene Derieux" <rderieux at dttus.com>
>Subject: Stale Beer and Summer Brewing
>
>     The temp. can get into the 90s here in Michigan and I really 
>     don't want to spend tons of money cooling my home to 70F or buying a 
>     separate refrigarator.  Any suggestions on how to keep the carboys 
>    cool while fermenting?

This works fairly well for ales:

        And it is cheap if you have a picnic cooler.  Just use a picnic
cooler that the carboy will fit into and fill it up with water. Place an
iced down 2 liter soda bottle into the water.  Check it every day, check the
temperature and use more or less ice bottles as needed. Cheap, easy (err I
guess easy), and quick.

Someday if you want to get fancy and like to tinker (who?), you can get a
small liquid pump, and a smaller cooler that you fill with ice water, and
recirculate into the fermenter picnic cooler.  Rig up a thermostat to
control the on off of the pump.

Happy Brewing

Ron
     


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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:52:28 -0500
From: Shelly Marshall <daybyday at erols.com>
Subject: REgarding natural alcohol contents

I wrote an article on non-alcohlic beers. In the body, I stated some items
that had natural alcohhol contents greater then a non-alcoholic beer. I've
been getting flack from sober alcoholics who are treatened by this. for
instance--a glass of orange juice has more alcohol then a non-alcholic beer
(Coors labrotories). I also know a ripe banan does--but don't know how to
prove it or reference  it. Do anyof you have any info on this or is there
an inexpensive way I can test ripe fruit and juices myself? I would
appreciate any info as I have my reputation to defend!

Thanks--Shelly

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 8:53:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
Subject: Counterflow clillers and trub removal...

	George de Piro indicates that a disadvantage of the counterflow chiller
is the difficulty one has with trub removal.  I disagree, and in fact I believe
that this design is superior for the removal of cold break which takes  some
time to drop out.  My approach with my 0.5 barrel system at the end of the 
boil is to start stirring to drop hops (pellets and whole hops) and after 5
minutes start the CF chiller.  The cold wort goes into a carbouy(s) (tightly
covered) and after a couple of hours the cold break drops out nicely.  I rack
off the trub (almost brilliant) and then pitch the yeast.  For those of you 
who are whispering (shhh! infection) note that I usually pitch about 0.5 litres
of yeast cake per 50 litres and fermentation is active at 8 hours.  I've not
had a beer "go off" because of delayed pitching.

	BTW, I'm not saying that I believe the CF to be better than an 
immersion chiller.  I just find the CF better for my process and system.

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 12:12:04 est
From: "RTALBOT" <rtalbot at casde.com>
Subject: Newbie question - "True Brew" Stout

     All,
     
     I am going to brew my second batch of bear today - its the "Amber" 
     from Brewer's Best. I have tasted it before and its nice, so if I do 
     everything right, it *should* taste good.
     
     Question: My _next_ batch will be the "True Blue" Stout.  What can I 
     try to do (ingredient or process-wise) to make it sort of smooth and 
     creamy, like Dominion Stout ? I just don't want it too bitter.
     
     Thanks in advance,
     
     Bob T


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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 9:20:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
Subject: AHA

      It's good to hear Randy say what I've been saying all along.  The AHA,
as an association, should have an elected board of directors or representatives
that represent, and is responsible to, the membership.  Policy is drawn up by
said board and implemented by the staff.  The staff are there to provide
administrative support to the board, and provide a service to the membership,
at their direction.  If the AHA represents homebrewers (as in, political lobby
group) it must be directed by the membership, not by dictatorship, however
benevolent.

      I think Papazian's done a fine job setting up the AHA.  But for
it to move forward, it must now move in a new direction.  The membership must 
now have a more significant role/voice.  Otherwise why be a member?  There
are too many other fine educational options out there now-a-days.  So the
issue isn't why/how the AHA was set up in the first place, it's what is it
doing lately?  Personally, I think it's an easy step for the AHA to take,
should they decide to do it.  The administrative structure is already in 
place.  Why not go for it?

      Currently I am no longer a member of the AHA.  My membership lapsed
about 2 years ago after the BJCP/AHA debacle.  I could be convinced to return,
but not under the current organizational structure.

                               Jim Cave 

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Date: 26 Feb 1997 12:49:21 -0500
From: "John Penn" <john_penn at spacemail.jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Judgement Call

                       Subject:                               Time:11:22 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Judgement Call                         Date:2/26/97

  I hate to see all the negative comments in the HBD.  In spite of something I
saw in the HBD a few weeks ago I can testify that yes AlK does take the time
to respond to newbie questions and I appreciate all of his posts and time and
effort.  He seems to draw a lot of criticism but it usually appears to be from
newbies who haven't seen the wealth of input that AlK puts in over time.  I
really appreciate the Daves, AlKs, George, Al, Spencer, Pat, and others who
contribute so much.  
   As for Charlie P., I tend to side more with Terry White's opinion but I
respect Scott Abene's right to have his own too.  As a relative newbie, I
appreciate Charlie's books, recipes, and laid back humorous attitude.  I don't
know how much of Scott's concerns are valid but everyone's entitled to their
views.  The truth is most likely somewhere in between the extremes.  Thanks
for all the wealth of knowledge, opinion, and interesting ideas in the HBD but
I personally would like to see the FLAMES cooled down a little.
   John Penn


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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:52:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Riedel <RIEDEL at ios.bc.ca>
Subject: Chiller length/Flames and abuse cycle

Hello all,

Recently I constructed a counterflow chiller using Drew Lynch's plans from the
brewery.  I highly recommend these plans, but I have one suggestion:  go easy
on the length of tubing.  I used ~30' (much less than Drew's recommended 50')
and I find my chiller is very effective.  200F down to 55F with a counterflow
of less than 2 gallons per minute.  Keep in mind this is using 'winter' tap
temperatures and water as a test medium (not wort), so I expect to see this
heat transfer decrease for actual wort and summer water temps.  I think anyone
building a chiller could easily get away with 20' with not much more water use.

Al K suggests a way to replicate a historically accurate porter:

>60% Old Peculier or McEwan's Scotch Ale
>10% Cantillon or Boon Gueuze/Geuze
>30% Rodenbach Grand Cru
>

Bill Giffin lovingly responds:

>Who in their right minds would waste the above beers to create a beer
>that rightfully went extinct.

	Anyone interested in the history of beer.

>See what I mean who would want to lose Al when you can still get
>such wonderful insight into the art of wasting good beer trying to make
>an old porter.  

[Al must have pee'd in Bill's mash at some point... it's the only explanation
for such a negative post.]

Al, I think you've got an idea there, though perhaps just increasing the mix
of Rodenbach might give the needed level of sourness?  I'm not sure you'd want
the Brett character in the porter.

It seems that the flame and abuse cycle is peaking again.  Relax, post your
favourite recipe or something... the junk will pass.  It always does.

Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Canada

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:09:06 -0600
From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner)
Subject: Re: brew dogs

This is a Mime message, which your current mail reader
may not understand. Parts of the message will appear as
text. To process the remainder, you will need to use a Mime
compatible mail reader. Contact your vendor for details.

- --IMA.Boundary.878089658
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

     I am behind on reading the hbd, but thought you might be interested in 
     my brew puppy.  I have an airedale which is not allowed near the 
     brewing process except at yeast pitching time.  He is then rinsed with 
     iodophore, shakes/drips dry and is immersed into the wort for 30 
     seconds at a time on 10 minute intervals for about 2 hrs.  That is 
     when vigorous fermentation is noted.  He works well with lagers, as 
     well.
     
     Lou
- --IMA.Boundary.878089658--

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 13:12:00 EST
From: "Bridges, Scott" <bridgess at mmsmtp.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Subject: RE: AHA yow yow



Randy in Modesto writes:

>I don't think I understand this AHA thing.
snip
>The AHA on the other hand is run by a self-appointed president who
>supposedly answers to a Board of Directors.  I do know that as a
>member, I never had any say in the make-up of this board.  Since the
>AHA doesn't see fit to disclose just how this board is made up, we'll
>have to assume that they are invited to serve by Charlie or his staff.
>And that takes just about all of the wind out of the AHA's assertion that
>the president serves only at the pleasure of the board.
>
>I can't seem to think of any type of body that operates under this model.
>It seems that for all of the efforts of the AHA to convince us that they 
are
>legit, all they ultimately understand is the almighty buck.  And that, 
after
>all, is the only vote that we have.  Don't pay the "dues", don't buy the
>merchandize, don't buy the books or the magazine, until we're convinced
>that our "membership" has some meaning.  Maybe then the AHA can be
>the type of organization its officers think it is.
>
>Randy in Modesto

Randy, this isn't pointed at you personally, just generally about the 
on-going thread.

I have tried to stay out of this AHA/AOB discussion, but I'll duck in, say 
my piece and quickly get the hell back out.

I think that the answers to the questions at hand are very clear.  The 
AHA/AOB, despite what they claim, is a business, period.  Not an 
"association", not a "membership", not some democratically-run 
"organization".  CP runs it, lock-stock-and-barrel.  He doesn't answer to 
the board, are_you_nuts?  He determines how much money everyone makes, 
including himself.  We ain't "members", we're customers.  That gives us the 
right to purchase the stuff that the AOB sells.  Nothing more.  We don't 
have the right to elect anyone.  CP is not about to give anyone the right to 
limit his income and ability to run the AOB the way he wants to run it.  He 
started the business, and it's still his to run.

The AOB apparently has a legal claim to be called a non-profit (I'm no 
lawyer).  You think that this is first case of someone bending the rules to 
suit them?  Sheesh.  They can't answer the hard questions honestly, because 
that would be tantamount to admitting that they're fraudulently claiming to 
be a non-profit.  Then they'd have problems with the IRS.  I don't see why 
its so hard to understand why Charlie, Karen and Cathy dance around it.

Bottom line is: If you think the magazine subscription is worth the price, 
buy it.  If not, don't.  In any case, don't expect to have any say in the 
running of the business -- any more than you would with any other business. 
 If enough customers become dissatisfied with the services provided by the 
AOB/AHA, they go under just like any other business.

My $.02
Scott

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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:52:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Nathan Moore <moorent at bechtel.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: recipe

	Hi all.  I've been working on this recipe for a little while and
figured I would run it by you guys to see if it can fly.  My last beer got
contaminated and my supply is low so I really want this one to be good.  I
started this recipe out as an American Amber but I'm not sure what it is
now.  I'm hoping for a malty sweet and hoppy balance with a nice toasted
character.  
	IBU:mid 50's depending on alpha of hops
	OG:low 50's, I'm planning on a slightly shortened sparge so this
	   why this number is lower then what you guys might calculate


	MALT					HOPS(all in oz.)
	5lb    vienne				0.25 Perle (FWH)
	3lb    munich				0.5  "   " (60min)
	1lb    munich, home toasted		0.5  "   " (45)
	0.5lb  flaked barley			0.5  "   " (30)
	0.5lb  aromatic				0.5  "   " (2)
	0.75lb biscuit				0.75 EKG   (25)
	0.75lb caravienne crystal		0.75 EKG   (10)	
	0.75lb caramunich crystal		0.5  Cascade (10)
	0.25lb scottish crystal (90l)		1.5  Cascade (dry)
 
	1 tsp Gypsum in mash
	WYEAST American Ale
	40-60-70 step mash

I'm planning on calling this To Hell with it Ale because, as you can see,
that is the attitude I took when I was working on the recipes and trying
to decide what to add and what not to.  My main worry is if this has
enough enzymes.  I've never made a beer with vienne and munich as the only
base malts.  Any other comments would be appreciated, have I over done it? 
TIA and private is fine

Nathan "not a member of the AHA, but will continue to go to the GABF and
buy interesting editions of Zymurgy" Moore 
Denver, CO



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Date: 26 Feb 97 14:16:19 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: wort clarification,

Brewsters:

As often as I agree with George DePiro, on this one we have different opinions.

George says:
 
>        I find that this is one 
>      of the disadvantages of CF chillers; complete trub removal by 
>      whirlpooling is more easily done when using an immersion chiller.

Sorry, but my experience is just the opposite.  As I have detailed elsewhere, I
use a filter (Choreboy) on the entrance end of the racking cane after
whirlpooling and my wort is crystal clear going into the CF chiller. The hops
act as an excellent filter for the trub and I get a good flow rate. This method
of filtering off the trub through the hops in a hop back has been practiced for
centuries because it works.  It may be that your method is needed to filter out
the rabbit food type pelleted hops if you use them.  But I would guess this
cotton bag would do a better job at the entrance end of the racking cane with
maybe a rough filter like a choreboy outside it even with these fine hops. If
you physically agitate hops and trub by sucking them up, my experience is that
it is impossible to filter inline as you are doing and get a clear wort because
the flocculated trub gets re-dispersed.   This method of filtering at the
entrance end of the racking cane is effective whether you are dealing with hot
or cold wort and can therefore be used with the CF chiller or the immersion
chiller.
- -----------------------------------------------------
AlK says:

 Really, Dave, no offense meant, but... put away the photochemistry texts
> and try this experiment.  I'm sure we'll agree then.  Perhaps try four
> bottles (two dark, two sunny, two smelled after a day, two after a month
> at 50F in the dark) and kill two birds with one sixpack.

No offense taken, but why should I throw away real science for a relatively
uncontrolled experiment at least as far as the components with an unknown
history are concerned? I am trying to fit all these observations on skunking
into a scientifically understandable package.

I have never disagreed that bottle skunking can occur if beer is mishandled by
being kept in the light and not light proofed by using modified hop acids, just
tried to understand why  1) so-called skunking occurs in beer that's never seen
the light, 2) why brewers outside with boiled wort don't get skunking, yet their
beers being consumed at the time do experience temporary skunking which can
appear and disappear in a matter of a few minutes in going from sun to shade and
3) why a photochemical reaction discussed and depicted as a direct photochemical
reaction in many articles can never happen as depicted because the main actor
doesn't absorb the wavelength of the incident light allowed by colored bottles
or even clear lime glass.  Yet beers in brown bottles as well as green do get
photochemically skunked and/or at least get labelled as skunked.

I think I understand the "black box" of this reaction without understanding the
chemical details.  1) something else which absorbs in the green/ blue wavelength
area is obviously absorbing the light and initiating a series of reactions some
of which end in producing prenyl and possibly related mercaptans.  Most studies
on this reaction agree on this point that iso-humulone is not absorbing the
light and reacting directly 2) the skunk reaction in the bottle looks to me more
like a free radical reaction based on lots of things, including colors of beers,
concentrations of reactants and  the reaction products, rather than an energy
transfer as suggested by most authors. 3) Funky old beer also gets called
skunked when it just has a bad odor from other things, possibly certain of the
hops, and not photochemistry.  We need a standard - Maybe a Bud's surface in an
open glass in the sun or a UV light. 4) Since no glass gets in the way, direct
photolysis of iso-humulone can happen to the surface of even highly colored
beers, the beer can smell skunked, yet be only temporary since this is just on
the surface and not in the body of the beer. 5) Your and some others'
observation that skunkiness can disappear on warmish storage (50F, e.g.) could
be explained by the slow hydrolysis of the mercaptan at beer pH's, so I don't
find it a chemical impossibility,  but I wonder why the industry doesn't use
this method of beer storage to prevent skunking or repair skunked beers.
- ------------------------------------------------------- 
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK


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Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:44:55 -0800
From: pms at psconsult.com (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Re: Composition of extract from steeped versus mashed grains

Pardon me if this is a silly question, but what's the difference between
mashing and steeping? I thought mashing *was* steeping, i.e. soaking the
crushed grains in water at a specific temp. for a specific time.

patrick
pms at psconsult.com

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Date: 	Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:27:00 -0500
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at chinook.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Canadian Amateur Brewers Assoc. event/competition

Greetings HBDers, long time no speak! I have been reading my HBD's=20
dutifully, but a busy life has kept me from posting in quite awhile.=20
Hopefully I will be more active in the future...
=09Anyways, the reason for my post: As the new secretary for the=20
Canadian Amateur Brewers Association (CABA), I have decided that it's=20
about time we started announcing our competitions, seminars, etc. on the=20
HBD. (I have noticed that this is common practice for many organisations,=
=20
so I assume that this is not bad netiquette. If this offends, please let=20
me know...)
=09I'm afraid that this is short notice, but future announcements=20
will be more timely. Regarding the competition, if anyone wants to enter,=
=20
send me private e-mail, and i will forward a pdf file with the entry form.
=09Long live the HBD!
=09Eamonn McKernan
=09eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca


THE CANADIAN AMATEUR BREWERS ASSOCIATION

                Home - brew Competition, Seminar & Awards Dinner

For the sixth consecutive year the Canadian Amateur Brewers Association=20
presents the "March in Montreal" Competition, Seminar and Awards Dinner=20
on Saturday, March 22nd, 1997

THE COMPETITION

This year, as in previous, the competition Entries will be limited to one
entry per person per category.  Medals and certificates will be awarded to
1st, 2nd, 3rd and best novice in each of the 8 categories, as well as 1st,
2nd, 3rd, best novice in the best of show and best club.  See the competiti=
on
rules and entry forms for more details.

ENTRY DEADLINE : MARCH 8th 1997

CATEGORIES :Continental Lager, Pale Ale, Brown Ale, Porter, Stout, Specialt=
y
(herb and unique fermentables) , Belgian and this years look-alike category=
,
Blanche de Chambly.

The beers will be judged by qualified beer judges from across the country.
The look-alike beer will be judged by a panel of judges from Unibroue.  The
results will be announced at the "March in Montreal" Awards Dinner (see bel=
ow
for details)

THE SEMINAR

The seminar will be held at Montreal's newest Brewpub, Brewtopia, 1219 Cres=
cent
St.  Our speaker at the seminar will be Pierre Rajotte, noted author, who
will be speaking on Brewing Belgian Beers. Lunch and samples of Brewtopia's
fine ales will be served.  Brewmaster Bruce McNab will show us the brewpub'=
s
brewing facilities.

THE BREWERY TOURS

We will be taken by bus to the Unibroue brewery where Brewmaster Gino=20
Vantiegham will guide us on a tour of the brewery.  We will then depart=20
for a tour of La brasserie Seigneuriale, in Boucherville.

THE AWARDS DINNER=20

Upon completion of the brewery tours, the bus will bring us back to Montrea=
l.
The Awards Dinner will be held at la Maison des bieres import=82e, 1418 Car=
tier,
(metro Papineau).  This virtual Beer Mecca boasts a beer menu of over 100
beers, featuring almost all the local micros on tap.  The Competition winne=
rs
will be announced and medals and certificates awarded

Join us for a day of good food, excellent company, informative speakers and
the best beers in town.

TICKET DETAILS

Seminar & Brewery Tours (includes lunch and bus)   =20
                                       $50 members     $60 non members
Awards Dinner                          $20 members     $25 non members
Whole Package                          $65 members     $80 non members
Dinner Guests accompanying members                 $20
CABA Membership                                    $21

RESERVATIONS & INFORMATION

Graham Bigland:     (514) 683 8681
     email          brewerg at securenet.net


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