---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Corny Keg Dimensions? ("Chris A. Smith")
  RE: Oak Casks, Pitched casks (John Lifer jr)
  newbie/newcastle/mini-kegs ("Myers, John")
  More Mash pH (A. J. deLange)
  Newcastle Brown (Brad McMahon)
  Re: Caustic soda (Dan Kerl)
  Micro Prices..... (rjlee)
  controllers for fridge/freezer (Greg Moore - SMCC BOS Hardware Engineering)
  Brass Oxidation ("K. Chaloupka")
  Beer price differential/bulk honey ("Ted Major")
  thermometers, mill gap (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
  Widmer Hefeweizen Yeast/140F Rest (Nicholas Dahl)
  Looking for Filemaker Pro Brewing Database (Chris Ragaisis)
  CPFs ("Raymond Estrella")
  sankey keg insulation ("Bryan L. Gros")
  pressure-cooked decoction (Spencer W Thomas)
  Source for Casks ("Rob Moline")
  Hot side aeration during mashing/sparging? (Loren Crow)
  Mash pH, Hop planting ("David R. Burley")
  Part 1 mash pH, and temps (Charles Rich)
  Re: canning wort part LVI (Scott Murman)
  re: Chiller Operation (Rob Kienle)
  Extraction efficiency (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
  Sweet wort at 135F (korz)
  Efficiency Woes (Jim Thomas)
  1/2b Keg Insulation (DAVE BRADLEY IC742 6-7932)
  advice on Celebration Ale recipe formulation, please ("Bret A. Schuhmacher")
  oak chips & temp controllers (KimLGT)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:59:52 +1300
From: "Chris A. Smith" <casmith at metro.telecom.samsung.co.kr>
Subject: Corny Keg Dimensions?

Can someone mail me the dimensions for the corny 
kegs, please? I'm considering buying a seperate fridge for
beer, and I would like to get one tall enough to 
hold at least one keg should I decide to move to kegging.
If I was back home I'd just buy a full size unit
but here my apartment is only about 50 sq. meters, 
I just don't have the space.
- -- 


Chris A. Smith
Switching Systems Group
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Seoul, Korea

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:30:20 -0500
From: John Lifer jr <jliferjr at mail.misnet.com>
Subject: RE: Oak Casks, Pitched casks

I'll have to second Al K. on his explaination of Oak casks and IPAs.  
I picked up a book a few years ago entitled "The Cooper and His Trade" by
Kenneth Kilby 
ISBN:0-941936-16-3 published by Linden Publishing in Fresno CA.  I, being a
woodworker and Homebrewer wanted to know more about cask making and this
reference was given to me by a wwk'ing forum.  Mr Kilby is a third
generation cooper.  Coopers made the casks (kegs) in which beer and other
liquids were transported.  Kilby goes into great detail about the history of
coopers and their trade and the near extinction of the trade due to
stainless steel kegs.  Wood used for beer was mainly English and then when
there were not any English Oaks remaining, Russian Oak.  Neither of these
oaks imparted very much taste to the beer.  American oak WAS NOT USED DUE TO
IMPARTING TOO MUCH TANNIN!  It was used for liquor and wine.  Maybe IPA's of
later years and of American origin used American oak.  This I don't know.
'nuff said.
John in Mississippi -----'nother brewin' fool


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:01:30 -0400
From: "Myers, John" <JMyers at polkaudio.com>
Subject: newbie/newcastle/mini-kegs

Greetings all.

I'm new to the list, and have learned a lot already.  I've more to learn
than to offer, but a couple of requests caught my eye.

Somebody requested an extract Newcastle clone recipe.  This comes from
those fine folks at Maryland Homebrew, Columbia MD.  ("I have no
affiliation whatsoever with BLAH BLAH...").

"Not So Old" Castle Nut Brown

Ingredients:
2 cans (3.3 lb. each) Black Rock amber malt extract
1 lb. Belgian aromatic malt 
 .5 lb. Biscuit malt
1 lb. Crystal 90 malt
2 oz. Styrian Goldings hop pellets
1 oz. Williamette hop pellets
1 oz. Williamette hop leaves
British Ale Yeast 1098
 .75 cup Priming Sugar (I use 2/3 cup for my mini-kegs)

Directions:
1.  Steep grains in 1.5 gallons of 160 deg water for 30 minutes, remove
grains.
2.  Add malt extract and bring to boil.
3.  Add 1 oz. Styrian Goldings hops and boil for 15 min.
4.  Add 1 oz. SG hops and continue boil for 15 min.
5.  Add 1 oz. Williamette hops and continue boil for 20 min.
6.  Add 1 oz. Williamette leaf hops and continue boil for 3 min.
7.  Turn off heat and steep for 10 min.
8.  Combine water and wort for 5 gallons, straining leaf hops if
necessary.
9.  Pitch yeast  at  70-80 deg.
10.  Primary ferment  at  70-75 deg for 4-5 days, rack to secondary  at  70-75
deg. for 10-14 days.
11.  Prime and bottle (or keg).
12.  Condition for at least two weeks.

Comments:
I made this once.  I conditioned in mini-kegs for 5 weeks.  I found it
quite tasty, and my spousal unit concurred.

Somebody else wanted user information on mini-kegs.

The pros:
Let's see...sanitize 4 vessels, or sanitize 54 vessels?  Fill and stop 4
vessels, or fill and stop 54 vessels?  Duh...

The cons:
Those dang little CO2 cartridges, and those dang Germans who sometimes
don't export/distribute them for a month.  (No, really, I LOVE Germans,
they taste just like chicken!)

For a less than mainstream beer such as a Rauchbier, you may want to
bottle as they may not lend themselves to mass consumption.

As with most things in life, this is but one data point, and your
mileage may vary.

cheers,
    j


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:07:00 -0500
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: More Mash pH

Al K. comments on an apparent conflict over the issue of temperature
compensation. I think he must be referring to DeClerk who says (Vol I p267)
"When pH is mentioned in connection with mashing, it always refers to the
cooled wort". Then on the following page "... for a correct appraisal of
the situation the pH should be measured at the temperatire of the
reaction." These two statements are not really in conflict. Remember that
this book was written more than 40 years ago when one didn't just shove his
double sleeve junction high temp pH electrode and RTD into the mash and
read the temperature corrected pH from the LCD in his hand-held meter. Look
in volume II to see what was involved in those days. Measurement at room
temperature was arduous enough. In fact, I don't know what Hopkins and
Krause (if indeed they did the original work) used for a reference as the
calomel electrode used in those days would not withstand the higher
temperatures.

I think the way to interpret these statements is to realize that in
practice mash pH's had to be specified in terms of room temperature samples
because they had to be measured at room temperature samples but that this
lead to the "situation" not being accurately described because of the
unknown shift in pH when the sample was cooled.

B,H,S & Y also mention the 0.35 shift (so they are probably the real source
of that number). They have a very confusing sentence about apparant enzyme
pH optima as determined at room temperature compared to apparant optima in
the mash if it is cooled before measurement but they do mention that
cooling before measurement is the usual case. Their statments "An infusion
mash is best carried out at pH 5.2 - 5.4. Consequently the pH in the cooled
wort will be 5.5 - 5.8." makes it clear to me that the 5.2 - 5.4 range is
at mash temperature and that an increase of about 0.35 can be expected in
cooling the wort to room temperature.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Randy deBeauclair asks
>Any one have any suggestions for a good source of bulk honey, for the
>purposes of making mead?

You brew your own beer, you probably load your own ammunition and so its
logical to assume that you ought to get your own honey. Keeping bees is
quite fascinating, will annoy your wife and neighbors and has lots of other
aspects which make it a fine hobby for a man. To get info (or, more
seriously, to find a local beekeeper with some honey to sell) try
sci.agriculture.beekeeping.

A. J. deLange
 - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.

- --> --> --> To reply remove "nosp" from address. <-- <--



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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:40:22 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Newcastle Brown

> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 97 9:51:45 EDT
> From: "Sebastian Dunne" <sdunne at nea.org>
> Subject: Newcastle brown ale recipe?
> 
> Anyone know of a recipe that closely resembles Newcastle brown ale?  An
> extract with specialty grains recipe would be best, but if you've got an
> all-grain recipe I'll take that too.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Sebastian Dunne
> Technical Associate
> sdunne at nea.org
>
OK, here is my recipe for a Northern (Newcastle) Style Ale.
2 kg. Light Dry Malt Extract
1 kg. Amber Liquid Malt Extract
100g Chocolate Malt (Steeped)
25g Williamette Hops (60 min boil)
15g Williamette or Fuggles Hops (15 min boil)
10g Williamette or Fuggles Hops (Dry Hopped)
Wyeast 1098 British Ale or similar (infact I used a Morgans dry
ale yeast and it worked well).
O.G. 1.050
F.G. 1.014

Any other takers?
This recipe is not a pure copy of Newcastle Brown, but it will make
a nice British ale, close enough for me at least.

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:22:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dan Kerl <dlkerl at ro.com>
Subject: Re: Caustic soda

Be careful with caustic soda (NaOH) around aluminium. It will cause
the aluminium to dissolve, releasing hydrogen gas.  This isn't a
problem if kegs contain no aluminium.

					Dan Kerl
					dlkerl at ro.com




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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:26:25 -0500
From: rjlee at mmm.com
Subject: Micro Prices.....

As a brewer, I can tell you somewhat of my end of the chain:

Many states have a three tier orientation by regulation. Others have one
by practicality - the large brewers can't be everywhere thenselves. The
feds have somewhat to say about that also as the ATF regs attempt to put
distance between the retailer and the brewer. As much as I get
frustrated by these rules, they are there for good and worthy reasons
(if they didn't, AB would own all the taverns!); these regs even allow
for us little guys to play the game at all. That said I do see things
going on that, according to the letter of the law, are illegal.

Now as for price: The retailer gets crunched on price because most
Joe-six-pack types are in it for the cost. In my area (Western
Wisconsin) most places charge around $0.75 for a glass of beer (tap, the
most profitable type). There are still places that you can find $0.25
taps. Our beer is going for $1 across the street (xyz-lite is $0.65).
Now as a brewer, that price margin is hard to work with. Down in Madison
(south Wisconsin), I understand that the price is closer to $3 and the
brewers there are doing very well and expanding like the West Coast did
not many years ago. This mechanism also accounts for the various pricing
you see nationaly; everyone charges what the market will bear, but the
market here is several years behind the coasts and hasn't caught up with
the upper price yet (probably never will due to the downward price
already being exerted).

Distributors, as others have eluded to, appear to get the best margins,
mostly because they can. The distributors have exclusive sales
territories by brewer; there will not be 2 Coors distributors in the
same area - by contract. The distributors are getting anywhere from 20
to 35% gross margins on beer from what I can tell. Now Distribtors, as
Joe said, really don't care what they sell from a brand point of view.
The big brewers, however, keep riminding them that if they don't sell
their beer, they might not have a contract. In the case of AB, they lean
REAL hard on the distributor. The Distribs are interested in making
money, so the brewer who throws the best *margins* their way along with
the best support advertising (read: market pullthrough) are the ones
that get the most attention.

The big brewers are not getting much margin, but then, with the amount
of beer they turn out, they don't need real big margins. The little guys
need big margins because of scale. That is why there weren't any of the
little guys left until recently; there was a price war and if you didn't
get big, you got out.

We are again on the brink of this price war. SA and Petes and all those
other mega-micros (AB, Miller, etc.) are starting to push the price down
again. From what I can tell, they are doing this both nationaly
(generally) and in local market segments (differentialy - which may
account for some of the difference between AZ and SC). Us little guys
are attempting to resist this by various other means because we will go
the way of all those brewers in the 60s and 70s if we start up with
price wars again; a little brewer can not compete on a level playing
field with the big guys on price. Can't be done.

So thats the long-winded explaination of retail prices; the middle guy
gets the money.

Randy Lee
Viking Brewing Company
Dallas, Wisconsin

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:33:29 -0400
From: Greg.Moore at East.Sun.COM (Greg Moore - SMCC BOS Hardware Engineering)
Subject: controllers for fridge/freezer



I see a lot of replacement freezer control modules that you put in the
AC line between the fridge/freezer and the wall socket.

However, wouldn't it be better to utilize these, especially the Johnson
Model A19 which has no cord as mentioned in Bryan Gros' recent posting,
by substituting the current inaccurate temp control with the more
accurate replacement from inside the fridge?  I'm assuming, of course,
that the original controller has two wires on it and is only
controlling the compressor, or a relay to the compressor.  This way,
the rest of the unit stays powered as it was designed to do.

Also, has anybody tried building a cold storage chamber based on the
works taken out of an old fridge, or by incorporating an old fridge
into the design.  Just an idea I've been toying with the past few
weeks.


 -=G
gmoore at wacko.east.sun.com
                            So much beer, so little time.  Drink hard.
             \\|// 
             (o o)
=========oOO==(_)==OOo===========   Please sir, may I have some more?
               



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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 08:33:35 -0500
From: "K. Chaloupka" <kchaloup at orbitworld.net>
Subject: Brass Oxidation

I've got some brass fittings that have a blackish color. I believe that
they are oxidized. Is this OK for for my brew system? How can I remove this
oxidation? Will nitric acid work? Also, can brass be passivated? 

Karel Chaloupka
Lockheed Martin Space Mission Systems & Services
Hardware Engineering Dept.
(281)335-6967
(281)335-6220 FAX

email: KCHALOUP at hweng.sis.lmco.com
          KCHALOUP at orbitworld.net
KJC at diac.com


 Beer can get a man through times of no bread better  
  than bread can get a man through times of no beer    



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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 09:59:45 -0400
From: "Ted Major"<tmajor at exrhub.exr.com>
Subject: Beer price differential/bulk honey





Another source of beer price differential is the difference in alcohol
taxes from one state to the next.  Beer prices here in Georgia are often
$1 or more per six pack lower than in neighboring Alabama, and prices in
North Carolina are lower than here, primarily due to taxes.  Alabam, from
what I've read, is 47th in alcohol consumption but 2nd in tax revenues from
alcohol sales.  Those dollars have to come from somewhere, hence the higher
prices.

For bulk honey, check health food stores in your area.  One of the stores
here in Athens has good prices on several varieties of good honey (I'm
partial to sourwood myself, and tupelo isn't bad either).  Check around
though; the other health food store here charges more than twice as much as
the one I buy honey from.

Cheers,
Ted Major, Athens GA
tmajor at exr.com



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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:04:34 -0500
From: layton at sc45.dseg.ti.com (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
Subject: thermometers, mill gap

Bill Coleman wrote about his frustration with the dairy-style 
thermometer he has (the floating type commonly sold in hb supply
shops I assume). I had one of those pieces of junk too. I replaced
it with one I got from William's catalog (no affiliation...). It is
also a floating type but is of good quality. It checks right on when
compared with a lab thermometer and reacts much faster than my old one. 
Obvious differences are that the good instrument uses mercury instead
of red alcohol and the mercury bulb is exposed rather than being 
encased within the glass bubble. The batteries never run down, wires
never short, and I haven't broken it in 30+ batches.

- ------------------------------------------

Dave Burley writes:

>are caused by poor milling.  Pass the malt through a nip of about 0.008 in.
>and again through 0.006 in.  Measure the nip with a spark plug gauge.

Maybe I don't understand the terminology (sorry, I'm from the South).
Is the "nip" the gap between the rollers? If so, .008 inches seems a
bit tight. My "pre-adjusted" roller mill has a much wider gap than this
(I haven't measured it but it looks to be around .050 inches). Two passes
through my mill give a pretty fine crush. Please clarify.

- --------------------------------------------

I've been reading old issues of the HBD from '93 and '94. The tone and
snr of this digest over the past couple of months are much better than
before. Thanks everyone.

Jim Layton (Howe, TX) 

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:15:55 -0500
From: Nicholas Dahl <ndd3 at psu.edu>
Subject: Widmer Hefeweizen Yeast/140F Rest

Does anyone know if the yeast in a bottle of Widmer Hefeweizen is the
fermentation yeast, or actually a bottle conditioning yeast?  I'd think
it's the fermentation yeast, but my starter fermented out *very*
clear...could it be because the starter is a DME starter, and not American
Wheat beer wort?
- ---------------------------

On another note, thanks to those of you who responded to my question about
a 140F rest.  The overwhelming consensus was that 140F might be a little
too high for a first rest:  135F-138F might be a better choice.  I'm
anxiously awaiting the results of last weekend's brew; a porter that used a
138F rest for 20 minutes, then, a 158F conversion rest for 75 minutes.

Truth in brewing,

Nick



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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 10:30:21 -0500
From: chris at megsinet.net (Chris Ragaisis)
Subject: Looking for Filemaker Pro Brewing Database

Howdy, campers!

About a month or so ago, someone on this list posted a web site where we
could pick up a FileMaker Pro-based brewing calculator to be used on the
Mac.  I grabbed the file, but it was only compatible with a later version
of FM Pro than I had.  Since then I've upgraded my FM Pro, but I've deleted
the database file.  Could someone please tell me where to find it so I can
download another?  None of the standard web search engines have been any
help.

Thanks in advance,

Chris Ragaisis



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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 15:36:00 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at msn.com>
Subject: CPFs

 Hello to all,
Rob asks about CPFs:
>Hoptech has a pretty inexpensive model that boasts an "automated"
>adjustable pressure relief valve, which on other models seems mostly
>"un"-automated but also usually has a hose attached to it which makes me
>wonder if the feature on this model is more like a pressure relief "spray." 

 I have the HopTech model and am very pleased with it. The guys at our
local shop gave up on CPFing because of the need for three hands to use
them. Mine has one valve, and works great. I did have to add another
stopper to keep the pressure release sleeve from picking up foam to low in
the bottle.

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Date-warning: Date header was inserted by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Subject: sankey keg insulation

Ronald Babcock <rbabcock at rmii.com> writes:
>
>I'm looking for suggestions from fellow converted keg brewers.
>
>I have a hard time holding the mash temperature in my converted keg.

I'm interested in what replies you get.  One suggestion I can make is
in covering the top.  Get a piece of foam 4 or 5 inches thick (from a
hobby store or sewing/crafts place).  cut out a circle that is a few
inches bigger in diameter than your keg opening.  When you shut
off the heat, shove this foam into the keg opening and it reduces
a lot of the heat loss.

          - Bryan
            grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
            Nashville, TN


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 12:02:47 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: pressure-cooked decoction

I tried the "first runnings in a bowl in a pressure cooker" decoction
scheme with my last batch of beer.  I cooked about 1.5 quarts of first
runnings for about 20 minutes at 15lbs.  The resulting wort was very
clear, darkened several "degrees," and had very definit hot break curds.
I carefully added it back to the boiling kettle.

The taste/aroma was slightly sulfury and bready.  After letting some
cool in a tasting glass, I decided that it had a "malty" character.  I
was somewhat handicapped in this endeavor by having previously
consumed an onion bagel with veggie cream cheese.

The beer's in the fermenter, so I have no idea whether the final
flavor profile will be much changed.  Nor, since I didn't keep out any
"plain" wort, is this a controlled experiment.

I think that next time, I'll use the big pressure canner and a larger
interior container (I'm pretty sure my 4 quart saucepan will fit.)

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 97 09:48:58 PDT
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net>
Subject: Source for Casks

	The Jethro Gump Report
Casks.....
	Tim DiPlacido, 25435 Chatworth Drive, Euclid, Ohio, 44117, (216) 531-0494,
sells casks made from American Oak, French Oak, and Hungarian Oak, in 1 to
60 gallon sizes. These are available with toasted or Waxed interiors. He
also sells toasted oak chips. No affiliation...blah, blah....just saw his
ad in the new Brewpub magazine and called for information. I don't have the
prices yet. He agreed with the notion that new casks, of any wood, don't
need long aging times to impart flavour, and that this will vary as the
cask itself ages, and with repeated use.

Jethro (Still Not Walking the Walk, Nor Talking The Talk) Gump 

Rob Moline
Little Apple Brewing Company
Manhattan, Kansas
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:54:43 -0500
From: crowld at rapidramp.com (Loren Crow)
Subject: Hot side aeration during mashing/sparging?

I'm a neophyte at home brewing (started 4 months ago), and have recently
made my first all-grain beer. The beer ended up tasting like it had a
problem with hot side aeration--even though I was very careful with the hot
wort--and I've been wondering whether the problem might have occurred
during mashing and/or sparging. If this is possible, are there any steps
one can take to reduce aeration during these steps?

Thanks for your help.
Loren


==========================================================================
# Loren D. Crow, Ph.D.     ++ Office Phone:  (903) 927-3219              #
# Department of Religion   ++          Fax:  (903) 938-8100              #
# Wiley College            ++                                            #
# 711 Wiley Avenue         ++ Email: crowld at rapidramp.com                #
# Marshall, TX  75670      ++ WWW: http://www.rapidramp.com/Users/crowld #
==========================================================================

The unexamined life is not worth living.
                           - Socrates



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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:12:13 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Mash pH, Hop planting

Brewsters:

Thanks AJ DeLAnge for doubling the published database on the effect of
temperature on the mash pH.

Everyone seems to agree that it is important to get in the range of 5.2 -
5.5. The question is at what temperature? DeClerk does comment on the same
and talks about pH at mash temperature, but also suggests cooling the
sample as I recall.  Thereby leading to confusion.  

I would think with all the space given to discussing water chemistry, pH ,
etc.etc, that this would be a crystal clear issue.  Like AlK I am confused
by what I read in these old books and attribute it to poor measurement 
technology of the times, as AJ points out.

However M&Bs 2nd ed vol 1 p279 says:".. An infusion mash is best carried
out at pH = 5.2 to 5.4. Consequently the pH in the cooled wort (20C) will
be 5.5 - 5.8."

So that answers the question of what is meant - at least by M&BS, but the
optima are broad and it probably doesn't make a big difference for most
types of low salts water because the mash is so highly buffered internally
that it will hit the right pH automatically.

When I mash in with my RO water (essentially distilled water with some CO2,
if I don't boil first) to make a Czech style Pils I get a pH on the high
end 5.6 -5.7 ( I assume at mash temperature) just like in Pilsen. I have
adjusted German Pils with Lactic acid to 5.3 at RT and 5.2 with an acid
rest. I once mashed a rye beer with a pH of 4.9 at RT, since I let it go
too low during an acid rest while I carrried out a decoction -like scheme. 
I have had no problem with tannins or with getting a good conversion on
either side of these "optimal" numbers..  I have developed the technique of
pouring the hot wort into a cold metal jigger to cool it rapidly and then
measure it at room temperature, since my pH meter is not temperature
compensated.  I have also tried adjusting the pH meter with warm buffer in
the past, but don't really have a scientific basis for this regarding the
temperature behavior of the buffer.  I have since moved back to RT
measurements.

In fact, this pH range of 5.2-5.4 is a compromise as the proteinases are
more active at lower pHs and I believe the amylases are somewhat higher. 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian Miller, novitiate hop grower, asks about planting hops:

> Should I lay them flat
>or stand them up in the hole I dig?

I lay mine down parallel to the ground surface ("horizontally") as
suggested in "Homegrown Hops" by David R. Beach.( 1988, pub. D.R. Beach 
(503) 998 -3369 - try your HB store)  I think you get more chances for the
growth from nodes of the rhizome. And this is the way it grows in the hill.
 Dig a ditch about a foot deep, mix half and half *composted* manure and
dirt. Add about 1 -2 tlbs of some garden fertilizer per hill, as well.
Place the rhizome about 4" below the surface cover with 2"  of soil and
press the soil down tightly around the rhizome. Cover with soil loosely.

I have read that commercial growers place their rhizomes as close as 8
inches apart, Beach recommends 2 ft separation. Based on where you live,
watch out for deer and rabbits, especially on the young shoots. Since I
live in the woods, I have mine surrounded with bird netting up to 8' to
fend off the deer and a plastic fence around the bottom for other
aggressive creatures. Mulch and water in the AM (to reduce chance of
mildew), as needed and fertilize monthly.  If you have a mildew problem,
try pulling off the bottom six feet of leaves and using Bordeaux or other
mixture early in the season. You will get some hops next year and full
production in the third summer.  Keep the number of vines to about three
per string. Beach also suggests that if you are prepared to pick from a
ladder  at 20' you can increase your yield and extend the season by letting
later shoots appearing in June develop as vines. He picks over 4 months
this way.  We are not so favored on the East Coast with mild weather as is
Oregon.  After the vines are established, I have read you can eat the
excess spring shoots like white asparagus, steamed, butter, salt  and a
little vinegar for a true German hop grower's delight. Beach suggests that
the old vines be used for wreaths.

BTW Beach was also confused when he first started and says on p30"

"The literature I read before planting my first hop hill was not very
helpful on the most basic question of how a a rhizome should be planted. 
In fact, in one brief mention I can recall said "vertically" and by my
experience is not true." 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  
Voice e-mail OK 

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:07:47 -0700
From: Charles Rich <CharlesR at saros.com>
Subject: Part 1 mash pH, and temps

In HBD #2403 Bryan Gros mentioned that my fridge controller was
six-degrees (F) off; it just *reads* six degrees high, it does a fine
job of holding the temperature.  I fixed it by repainting the line on
the set dial. 

Later in the same HBD Dave Burley states:

> For highly modified malts like the British Pale Ale malts it is not
> necessary to hold in the proteinase regions below 140F, as this will
often
> be detrimental to the head forming capabilities.

While a Pale Ale malt base won't benefit as much as a Pale or Pils base,
I would like to know how a rest in upper proteolytic temps (132-135F,
55-57C) could possibly be detrimental to head forming capabilities.
High molecular weight proteins which are degraded here can only benefit
the beer's head, body and chill haze.

> After doing one poorly designed experiment, Charlie Burns says:

Maybe so, but the best thing was that he did it and reported what he
found, and that is worth ten unexamined restatements of 'the
conventional wisdom'.  The occasional "just a datapoint" observations
posted here are worth five.

Regards,

Charles Rich (Seattle, USA)
"43% of all statistics are made up on the spot"


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 11:14:18 -0700
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: canning wort part LVI

On Tue, 22 Apr 1997 15:01:30 -0400  "David R. Burley" wrote:
> 
> I think the summary of the long discussion on this was that at the pH of
> wort, boiling water temperatures is not enough and you should pressure cook
> the wort or risk botulism.  You should boil this wort again before using it
> in your beer in any event.

If you are pressure canning your wort (*not* pressure cooking) there
is no need to re-boil it.  If you are going to re-boil your wort,
there is no need to even water-bath can it; the re-boiling stage will
kill any nasties provided you live near sea level.

If you don't have a pressure canner, and you insist on saving your
wort, I would suggest just pouring it into a 22oz. bottle (after it's
been cooled), capping it, stick it in the fridge or freezer, and then
re-boiling it when you need it (and cooling, pitching, etc.).  These
stages should be as sanitary as practical, otherwise you may open a
bottle of wild yeast fermented goo after a month (or a high pressure
disaster).  The re-boiling here is not really critical from a health
standpoint (read: botulism), it simply kills any nasty bacteria or
wild yeast that may be enjoying your wort.

Better yet, just don't bother with the whole mess and create a fresh
starter from pale DME.  If you can't pressure can wort, you're going
through a whole lot of trouble just to save $0.20, IMO.

SM

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 14:45:08 -0500
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: re: Chiller Operation

Tim asks about the logistics of moving hot wort from kettle to cooler:

If you don't have a drain on your boiling kettle, you'll have to siphon
(which you probably suspect), and the easiest way to start the siphon
that I've found is to
sort of "fold" it into the rest of the process, which includes
sanitizing the chiller, etc.:

1) When the boil is complete, sanitize the chiller. Stop the boil and
whirlpool. Feed boiling water (from a separate pot) into your chiller by
starting a siphon from the opposite end. Note you can suck freely from a
hose on the bottom of the chiller without worry since by the time the
hot water gets there, your mouth *should* be long gone. 

2) Make sure you have a hose clamp on the hose on the bottom of the
chiller. When the chiller is full, clamp down to stop the flow and let
everything sit there for a while (as you wait for your hot break to
start precipitating). 

3) To start the flow from your boiling kettle, simply take the hose from
the boiling water pot (that's still connected to the wort chiller) and
relocate it to the wort kettle. Release the clamp on the bottom of the
assembly and wort will freely flow. 

4) Note that your bottom hose will also be sanitized from the boiling
water that's run through it. If you let the end of this hose sit in a
small pail of the runoff (or some weak chlorine solutions) it will also
be sanitized from your mouth and you won't need to change the hose when
the wort starts to flow. 

The key here obviously is to keep the lines full of boiling/boiled water
between steps, so that the *resident* liquid will initiate the siphon
from your boiling kettle. 

For connections (both top and bottom), use the same hose you use for
racking (3/8"?). Connect the top hose to a piece of copper pipe to
insert into the boiling kettle and tie a Chore Boy to the end of the
pipe that goes into the wort to strain out the hops. 

- -- 
Cheers4beers,
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:56:19 -0300 (GMT-0300)
From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at elmer.fing.edu.uy>
Subject: Extraction efficiency

Dear friends,
I have read several articles which refer to extraction efficiency some 
way or another. 
I have seen that there are different way to express mash extraction and
efficiency (points, %, etc.) and that they are related to each other.
I would appreciate if any of you can send an article explaining 
efficiency and extraction calculations in points, %, etc. and how these 
expressions can be related to each other.
Any kind of help will be welcomed.
Thanks.

Jorge Blasig, preparing my first mash of all grain beer.


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:20:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Sweet wort at 135F

Charley writes:
>And you can bet I'll taste the mash during protein rest to see if it is
>also Sweet at that low temp.
 
Dave pretty much summed it up (although the crack about reading more
could have been worded a bit more nicely) and I pretty much agree with
everything he said (although I would use "gap" in place of "nip"...
I think "nip angle" is a related term here and should not be confused
with "gap").

On the subject of sweetness, remember that you have amylase in your
*saliva* and in a matter of seconds, *cornstarch* tastes sweet!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:22:08 -0500
From: Jim Thomas <jim.thomas at telops.gte.com>
Subject: Efficiency Woes

Brewers,

I was reading various posts to the HBD on the efficiency woes of one of
the readers and I felt compelled to offer the following.

I believe that the efficiency trail is littered with the bodies of
brewers who think they should be getting 30 or 32 ppg out of their
systems.  And they may in fact be getting that--or something close to
it.  The trouble starts with the approach to taking measurements. 

Generally, you can measure efficiency in a couple of ways, 1) by taking
a reading before the boil or 2) after the boil--thus accounting for
kettle losses. 

I'm guessing many brewers are taking measurements after the boil and are
looking for Dave Miller-like 32 ppg efficiency and getting say, 25. 
Then they run through the gambit of various fixes; mash ph, sparge water
temp, sparge rates, crush, etc.  They probably make miniscule
improvements.  And they're probably frustrated about their efficiency
rates. 

Here's the point.  When Zymurgy did their field test of mash/lautering
systems in "The Great Grain Issue," they measured efficiency BEFORE the
boil. And as I recall, in their findings they achieved efficiency of 30
to 34 ppg on a wide range of systems (slotted copper manifold,
easymasher, bucket-in-bucket, false bottom).  Also, if you go to back
issues of Zymurgy and calculate efficiency from printed recipes, you'll
find most brewers are in the 25 to 28 range.  This is obviously as
measured AFTER the boil.  

I think the lesson here is that you might have a problem, if you're not
getting 28 to 32 ppg measured BEFORE the boil.  If you are, don't sweat
it.  
  
For me, the most meaningful number is the one taken AFTER the boil. 
This is an essential number in terms of recipe formulation and in batch
repeatability.

Happy Brewing,

Jim

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:54:04 +0000 (GMT)
From: DAVE BRADLEY IC742 6-7932 <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at LILLY.COM>
Subject: 1/2b Keg Insulation


Rbabcock's recent request on insulation ideas for 1/2b converted kegs...
I've used the foil-bubble pack stuff, and it is marginally useful.
When mashing in large pots I had better results because I could set
the warm pot on a piece of "Celotex" siding insulation, wrap it
several times over with the foil-bubble stuff, put the pot's lid on,
and set a Styrofoam "lid" over the whole thing (resting on the longer
foil-bubble pack cylinder).

The hot keg-o-mash is dangerous to lift off then on the burner every time
I want to step up temps.  Recently, several posters to the HBD suggested
an approach to increasing efficiency of heat transfer from gas burners to
converted kegs.  They use metal trash cans or drums w/ the bottom cut out,
this fitting over the burner and the btm of the keg, allowing less heat to
be lost going up and around the keg.  Why not have such a metal can as a
"lid" of sorts?  Insulate it some on the outside, and the resulting air
space inside between keg and can acts as a better insulator.  Lift it on
and off to get access to the contents and during heating.  Who out there
does this already?

This is a visually appealing thing too.  A couple of galvanized trash
cans stack up, wrapped in aluminum insulation.  I'd call it The Beer Machine!

Dave in Indy
Home of the 3-B Brewery, (v.) Ltd.



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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:12:42 -0400
From: "Bret A. Schuhmacher" <bas at healthcare.com>
Subject: advice on Celebration Ale recipe formulation, please

Hi HBD'ers,

I'm trying to make a Celebration Ale knock-off and I have a few
questions about the recipe.  This'll be an extract attempt and my
first attempt at creating a recipe...

Here's the recipe I made up:

7# pale malt extract
3/4# Cara pils
3/4# caramel (60L)
2oz Chinook (boil 60 min)
3/4oz cascade (finish)
3/4oz centennial (finish)
Wyeast 1056 American Ale
3/4oz cascade (dry hop)
3/4oz centennial (dry hop)


I figured this by noting the OG on the SN Celebration ale web page is
19.2 Plato (1.066).  I figure the 7# of extract will get me to 1.049,
the 1.5# of grain will get me 1.018, for a total of 1.067.  Now, my
question is this: I got these numbers from TJOHB and another book.
Both books mention hot water extract numbers and warn the user to only
expect 80% of these numbers.  Am I going to be way low on my OG with
my plan?  Should I use more extract and/or more grain?  What if I get
better extraction and wind up totally missing my target OG?

The SN website says they use Cascade, Centennial, and Chinook hops,
but I have no idea how much.  I'm gonna shoot for 80 IBU's since the
highest IBU in both my books says IPA's go up to around 70.  Anyone
who's had a Celebration knows how bitter they are, so I figure 80
ought to be about right.  Doing the IBU calculations led me to the 2
oz of Chinook (12% alpha) hops.


Any comments?

Thanks in advance!  Email privately if you like.

Rgds,

Bret

- -- 
 Bret A. Schuhmacher - Software Engineer
 bas at healthcare.com                           These opinions are no one's 
 Healthcare Communications, Inc.              fault by my own.
            I stopped to think and forgot how to start again.

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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:23:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: KimLGT at aol.com
Subject: oak chips & temp controllers

I offer this as an alternative to dry hopping with plain or toasted oak
chips. I like a faint toasted oak flavor in scotch ales. 
This is sanitary, easy and repeatable.
First I steam four tablespoons toasted oak chips [in a muslin hop bag] in a
veggie steamer for ten minutes. Then I drop the bag into the boil for 5
minutes. If you want a greater oak flavor leave the bag in during the primary
but halve the dry hop amount[maybe 2 tablespoons] . The resulting flavor is
faint enough to be "mysterious" as opposed to overwhelming.  Soon I'm going
to try this with plain oak chips in an extra hoppy IPA.
- --------------
Would you all mind if I  encourage newbees to experiment? 
New Brewers, Listen Up-
 All this great advice makes it seem like if you don't follow the rules you
can't make beer. Don't forget beer was made for 5,000 years before
thermometers and ph meters were invented.  We recently had a contest and the
gold medal winning brewer committed the following crimes; He boiled his
specialty grains, he used extracts, he added saccharian [in the form of
sweet-n-low] need I go on? BTW  the recipe for the winning beer was from the
old classic Brewing Beer Like Those You Buy, by David Line. FYI the beer was
judged by two BJCP judges and the brewer at the best brewery around. 
- -----------------------------
RE: temp controllers for lagering. You can buy the johnson controls
thermostat all ready to plug in, no additional wiring needed for $49.90 US
 including UPS shipping to any place East of the Mississippi from Karps
Homebrew 516-261-1235. this is the identical unit sold by Williams in Ca.
Sorry for the shameless commericial, I work at Karps. 

alan talman
 brewer, gadgetphile, juggler and computer neophyte.
Karps Hardware and Homebrew, alannnnt at aol.com  

- ---------------------------------

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