HOMEBREW Digest #2420 Fri 16 May 1997

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Re: ageing ales (Spencer W Thomas)
  Malta drinks (Tumarkin)
  Hop Flowers ("Kris Jacobs")
  Pellet/Whole (Rust1d)
  alt.gyno.make.me.sick (Barrowman)
  abbrev. (Scott Dornseif)
  Throwing away perfectly good beer ("Moyer, Douglas E")
  Increase in temperature during fermentation ("Jeff Beaujon")
  Malta (KennyEddy)
  Co2 soluability tables/curves (RANDY ERICKSON)
  HOTV Competition results (Mark Taratoot)
  pells vs. whole (korz)
  soil preparation (DAVE SAPSIS)
  CO2 pressure (korz)
  Vancouver International Amateur Brewers Competition (Jim Cave)
  Upright Freezer ("Eric Schoville")
  re: which hop calculation method? (Art Steinmetz)
  Henry's Law (Art Steinmetz)
  Brass Ball Valves, Fittings, etc (Art Steinmetz)
  Yeast infections/high final gravity due to honey (Richard Gontarek)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:08:17 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: ageing ales 2. What would be the optimum time ( in months) to age an ale? I know that the answer to this question is related to gravity. Is there a simply rule of thumb to follow? I usually age my ales at least a day. This allows the force carbonation to dissolve, and whatever yeast is left in the keg has time to mostly settle out. :-) Most regular gravity ales should need essentially NO aging. Some will improve with some aging. Big ales are a separate ball of wax. Randy Mosher has a chart in his book that covers this. I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall, he recommends times up to a year for really big barleywines (1.100 and above). I made a spiced ale (special case) at 1.080 that was really great at almost 2 years (just before it ran out, of course). 1. Should ales be aged at ale temp(65F) or at lager temp(32F)? Depends on what you want to happen. Aging cold will reduce esters, diacetyl, etc., giving you a more "lager-like" flavor. Aging warm will do other stuff, but will still tend to mellow the harsh edges and round out the beer. =Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer at umich.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:11:14 -0400 From: Tumarkin at ix.netcom.com Subject: Malta drinks Hi All, Bob Lang asks for a recipe for the Malta soft drinks sold in the Miami area. Sorry Bob, I don't have a recipe but I do have a tip for using the 7oz bottles the Malta comes in. I usually bottle up one or two of these small bottles with every batch of beer I make. That way I can taste to see how the priming/carbonation is coming along without "wasting" a large bottle. Very handy for the impatiant brewers out there like myself. Mark Tumarkin The Brewery in the Jungle Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:15:12 +0000 From: "Kris Jacobs" <jtsnake at serv01.net-link.net> Subject: Hop Flowers I am growing hops this year, and I sure don't understand the reasoning behind people referring to whole hops as "leaf hops" or "whole hop leaves". It is the hop _flower_ that is used in your beer, not at all the leaves. Can we all get on the same sheet of music here? - --Kris Jacobs JPA Mash Works "Noch ein Bier bitte!" Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:19:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Rust1d <rust1d at usa.net> Subject: Pellet/Whole Scott Abene writes: >I have been toying with using Hop Pellets as the bittering hops (anything >that is in the boil more than 50 minutes). Then using either plugs or whole >leaf Hops for the flavor and aroma hops. >I have found that in my experience the Hop Pellets tend to give me the >better boiling hop bitter than plugs or whole leaf and that the plugs and >whole leaf work far much better for flavor and aroma. I too have been working this approach. Pellets in the beginning of the boil, followed by leaf towards the end. I arrived at this method because of the amount of wort left behind when using whole hops. When using exclusively whole leaf, I was losing more wort after draining the kettle. When using exclusively pellets, I found that more hop/trub made it into the fermenter. Sooo, now I always make sure to add some whole leaf to each batch for its filtering capablities. Since they have more to offer in the flavor/aroma area, I try to add them towards the end. My IPA with over 10 ozs of hops gets pellets right up to the knock out hops which are leaf for filtering. Otherwise I would lose a gallon of wort post boil. John Varady http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady Boneyard Brewing The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program Lafayette Hill, PA * New email address ***> rust1d at usa.net Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:18:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Barrowman at aol.com Subject: alt.gyno.make.me.sick Thanks to Rae Christopher J for the scientific discussion, but, could you all do us gals out here a favor and ditch the gyno-discussion? I have already dressed down the poor guy who posted the original. This kind of stuff is pretty offensive to the female brewers/readers out there. If I want to read about that sort of thing I'll find another news group. Tsssssssssssss, steam let off, going back to my bowl of milk, Laura Charlotte NC Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:26:48 -0500 From: Scott Dornseif <roundboy at wwa.com> Subject: abbrev. Hey. My apologies in advance, I must be a drooling idiot because I just could not find what I wanted in the hbd archives, nor can I find that helpful web page with the abbreviations on it. Anyway, what is AlK? Short for alkaline? It sounds like a caustic from the way I hear people talk about it. TIA Scott Dornseif roundboy at wwa.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 9:02:40 -0400 From: "Moyer, Douglas E" <moyer-de at salem.ge.com> Subject: Throwing away perfectly good beer Well folks, I threw away my first batch of beer last night. No, it wasn't contaminated. It's much more stupid than that. I kegged the beer on Sunday, and put 28 psi on the keg, and left the gas connected. After work on Monday, I hooked up the liquid disconnect and tried a sample. Unfortunately, I forgot to take off the liquid disconnect or to turn off the gas. When I went into the back room to draw a pint, I got half an inch of spitting foam. I opened the chest cooler, and saw the entire five gallons on the outside of the keg. (Luckily the chest cooler didn't leak. Stout on the carpet in what will soon be the baby's room would have made my dear wife a bit unhappy.) I have the pinlock style kegs, and the leak was between the quick disconnect and the shaft. (It was a very slow leak over a very long time.) Now, obviously, I should not have left the gas on for so long. Also, I guess I should not have left the liquid disconnect connected during the high pressure of force carbonating. Here are the questions: 1) How often should I change o-rings on the disconnect shafts? 2) Is it unreasonable to expect the o-ring to hold pressure at 28 psi? I'm beginning to like the idea of giving the keg a shot of CO2 only when needed... Doug Moyer Big Lick Brewing Collective "My Big Lick is leaking!" Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:43:42 +0000 From: "Jeff Beaujon" <jmb at mailhost.bellhow.com> Subject: Increase in temperature during fermentation I recently brewed a batch of Oatmeal Stout from an extract recipe (OG = 1.058). The basement temperature is a pretty constant 68 deg F and the wort temperature was also 68 deg when fermentation commenced. I noticed that at peak fermentation (burping about 80/min) the temperature, according to the Fermometer, was about 72 or 73 deg. Now, I realize that fermentation produces heat, but in my 10 or so previous batches (all ales) I have not seen even a 1 deg increase in temperature. My question is why would I see such a large temperature change in this batch ? Is it due to the larger amounts of unfermentables (FG = 1.018), the yeast (Wyeast 1084), or something else ? All my previous batches had FG in the 1.010 - 1.012 range and have used Wyeast 1028, 1056 or 1098. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Private Email is fine. Jeff Beaujon Stow, Ohio - --- Jeff (x6476) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:37:18 -0400 (EDT) From: KennyEddy at aol.com Subject: Malta Bob Lang asked about "malta": "Does anyone know how these are made (recipe) and if its possible to make in the same methodology as reg. brews." Bob, malta is basically just hopped unfermented wort. Charlie Pappazian's second book contains a recipe he calls "American Malta", since it's a bit heavier on the hops than what he describes as the traditional stuff. From what experimentation I've done with no- and low-alcohol brewing, I might suggest going easy on the hops, but that's based on a much lighter-gravity wort (1.010-ish). I also found that slight acidification of the wort helps the hop flavor for some reason. Having said that, here's a description of a malta which by wierd coincidence appears today (May 15) on my "365 Bottles of Beer for the Year" desk calendar (Bob Klein, Workman Publishing Company, copyright 1996): ***** Extracto de Malta Malt Beverage (non-alcoholic) Brewed in Hamburg, Germany The rich, chocolatey flavor here is reminiscent of a milk shake or malted milk. A pungent malty aroma with restrained sweetness accompanies a bitterness that is nicely tuned and balanced. Heavily hopped, it comes within drinking distance of real beer. ***** I don't see why you couldn't make "malta" using any grains you felt like using, so step one would be to design a recipe based on the "style" you want. You can probably deduce quite a bit about the ingredients by tasting the commercial version. Shoot for about 1.030 gravity (if I remember right, that's about where Pappazian's malta was). Brew as you normally would but don't pitch any yeast. Optional: add a bit of phospohoric or lactic acid to obtain a pH drop of a few tenths (too much acid and you get a sour taste). Allow to settle & clear, or filter. Rack to a keg & force-carbonate. DO NOT PRIME IN THE BOTTLE -- there's no yeast (remember?), and if you add yeast, the wort will fully ferment and you will have exploding bottles!! Sanitation in processing & packaging is crucial since the wort is totally exposed to infection. CP suggests bottling from the keg and heat-pasteurizing the bottles at ~150F for a few minutes. There might be some sort of food-grade preservative additive you can use if you wish. Otherwise, drink it up quickly. In any case, store it as cold as possible to retard spoilage. You might want to make a small batch if this will be an occasional beverage. If you make this from all-grain, try a high mash temperature to reduce the sweetness in the taste. Seems that especially at higher gravities this stuff might be a little icky. Try a 160F single infusion. If using extract, try a low-attenuating brand like Laaglander. Makes me want to brew malta... ***** Ken Schwartz El Paso, TX KennyEddy at aol.com http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:52:55 -0700 From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org> Subject: Co2 soluability tables/curves Ian Smith asks where to get copies of the CO2 solubility curves: There are a couple of places. The info at the Brewery is nice because it also includes a formula which allows you to calculate "special cases", i.e. carbonation levels or temperatures which are off the chart. Check out: http://alpha.rollanet.org:80/library/CO2charts.html If you don't have web access, but can anonymous FTP, go to: ftp.stanford.edu Directory: /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer/docs for three different formats of the chart. If all you have is E-mail, the HBD header (That's right, each and every issue!) points you to an FTP by e-mail server. Cheers -- Randy in Modesto Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:34:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Taratoot <taratoot at PEAK.ORG> Subject: HOTV Competition results This year celebrated the 15th anniversary of the Oregon Homebrewers Competition and Festival. We had a total of 236 entries, over twenty more entries than last year. Thanks to all who participated. Results can be viewed at http://www.peak.org/~taratoot/fest.html -or- http://www.peak.org/~taratoot/result97.html - -- Mark Taratoot taratoot at peak.org Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:36:55 -0500 (CDT) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: pells vs. whole Scott writes: >I have been toying with using Hop Pellets as the bittering hops (anything >that is in the boil more than 50 minutes). Then using either plugs or whole >leaf Hops for the flavor and aroma hops. > >I have found that in my experience the Hop Pellets tend to give me the >better boiling hop bitter than plugs or whole leaf and that the plugs and >whole leaf work far much better for flavor and aroma. I've read similarly in George Fix's writings and would *tend* to agree that the "quality" of the aroma and flavour of whole and plug hops tends to be superior to pellets. The process of pelletisation generates a great deal of heat and I find it difficult to believe that some subset of the compounds in the essential oils are not driven off during the processing. Note that this presumes that the hops are stored properly: purged, oxygen- barrier bags, at very cold temperatures. Ten years ago, I would have said that pellets have better aroma and flavour characteristics, simply because the pelletisation protected at least some of the essential oils from oxidation. Personally, I used to use pellets for the boil (using hop bags - bittering, flavour, AND finishing) and whole hops for dryhopping. I did use whole hops occasionally in the boil back in the days when you couldn't get East Kent Golding pellets. By the time I sold my store, there were only four or five varieties that I could *only* get as whole hops (I used to stock about 25 varieties of pellets, six of plugs, and five of whole). Things change and we re-think our systems and I ended up changing the way I brew beer. In my new 1/2bbl system, I have a ball valve on the outside and stainless steel screens on the inside of my 18.75-gallon kettle. Now, I only use whole hops, without a hop bag, and rely on the hops to help filter-out much of the hot and cold break (I use an immersion chiller). Luckly, the number of whole hop varieties available to homebrewers has tripled in the last two years and now, I think that it's now easier to get a wider range of varieties in whole hops than in pellets. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:48:44 -0700 From: DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov (DAVE SAPSIS) Subject: soil preparation Jeff Kenton did a search of the archives and uncovered these gems regarding soils treatments: 1) add sand to heavy (clay) soils to increase drainage. 2) use bone meal as a general fertilizer Number one will likely produce concrete. Your best bet at lightening up heavy clay soils is liberal use of organic matter and working the soil (i.e., digging and turning in). Most soil amendment companies make some variant of "clod buster" and it usually has a redwood soil based conditioner in it. Often it is also treated with either chicken or steer manure as well. Hops have very extensive root systems. Think about the amount of above ground biomass at full development. It is likely that there is a roughly an equal amount below ground. People having trouble growing hops usually have a limited soil environment for their plants. On the subject of fertilization, I posted this sometime ago, again in response to an individual suggesting the use of bone meal as an early season nutrient: About the same time Dan Roman made some strange statements in regard to hop fertilizers: use bone meal instead of manure or miracle grow. Be warned, bone meal is almost solely a source of phosphorous. Little to no available N in it (the stuff I have is rated 0-10-0). It is therefore an excellent nutrient for stimulation of flower development, and I have had good results using ~ 1 cup per hill in early July after initiation of fruiting. Dan also makes the case that manure and Miraclegrow offer too quick a release of nutrients, and run the risk of burning. He is only half right. Synthetic fertilizers such as MG have the vast majority of their Nitrogen in a highly available state, with all buffering of that availability dependent on soil mediated reactions. Manures on the other hand come with extensive amounts of carbon. The rates of nitrogen availability are determined by N mineralization rates, which in addition to pH, are largely a function of C:N ratios. Optimal levels of mineralization occur around a C:N of 20. Without delving too much into soil microbiology, mulch fertilizers such as manures are generally well buffered in regard to nitrate, so long as the fertilizer is well watered into the soil profile upon treatment. That way, the easily leached NO3 will transport down into the profile, and leave the fertilizer to its own well-regulated dynamics of N mineralization. I have had very good results using organic chicken manure (NPK of 3-2-1) at about 1.5 pounds per hill at three intervals during early and mid growth, then switching to bone meal for hop cone development. Hope this helps. Cheers, --dave in sacramento Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:42:44 -0500 (CDT) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: CO2 pressure Charley writes: >>3. your regulator is off and you are not at 25-30 psi, > >Go back and read the process. The third step says "disconnect ..." Yes, but the fifth or sixth step implies that a keg of 33F beer gets sloshed around for 5 minutes with 25-30 psi *connected*, until you don't hear gas going in. This implies that you have dissolved more than 4 volumes of CO2 in the beer! See the pressure vs. temperature vs. CO2 volumes table at: http://alpha.rollanet.org/library/CO2charts.html >> to 55F for serving (at 8 to 12 psi). > >How many kegs are you keeping pressurized simultaneously? I find that if I >have one keg in the frige (very seldom but it happens) vs 4 kegs (all on a >single manifold) I have to set the regulator up higher to maintain the same >serving pressure. I used to have four at once, but now the darn keg fridge is taken up by 25# of hops (which I bought just before selling the store). I'm lucky if I can fit two kegs in there... however, I discovered that my crawlspace is at 55F in the wintertime, so I don't need to store the kegs in the fridge except in the summer. This winter, I never had more than two kegs of beer ready for consumption at one time, so I never had more than two on the system at one time. If you have to raise the pressure when you have more than one keg, you have leaks in your system. Put a few tablespoons of dishwashing soap (the foamy stuff) into a few tablespoons of warm water and check all your connections. If you see bubbles, you have a leak. Be careful to not get any of this on any surfaces that may contact beer (such as the lid O-ring... use plain water to check this seam). >>Since CO2 is much more soluble at cooler temperatures, your instructions >>are a recipe for *very* *highly* *carbonated* beer. > >I use the cooler temperatures (33F) in order to hurry the process along and >get drinkable beer within 24-48 hours of beginning the process. I then >depressurize the keg and raise the temp up to 44F (warmest setting on my >thermostat). Yes, that's reasonable, but the problem is that you need to bring that pressure down to 11 or 12 psi if you are indeed carbonating at 33F. This will keep your beer from absorbing more than about 2.75 or 2.8 volumes and the number of volumes of CO2 will stay constant (presuming the keg is sealed and there is no externally applied pressure) even when you change the keg's (the beer's, actually) temperature. Actually, you can get drinkable beer in 12 hours: force carbonate 68F beer at 30psi till the gas stops flowing. Stick this in your 44F fridge and by the time it's at 44F, the eddy currents will have settled and your beer will be drinkable (although it may be a little yeasty still). >Theory is one thing, practice is real and this process does work in my >basement. You will note that I didn't dispute that you were happy with your level of carbonation, but rather I felt that somewhere (pressure or temperature) you were not where you thought you were. I still insist that if you are indeed saturating 33F beer with 25-30 psi of CO2, you have more than 4 volumes of CO2 dissolved in it -- this will be foam city unless you have a 12 foot, 1/4" ID hose and it will be very highly carbonated whatever the hose length. >Hope you enjoyed your vacation Al. Yes and no... I've had better... hours before our flight took off, my wife's grandfather was taken to the hospital, so we scrubbed the mission. He died the following Wednesday, so it's good that we didn't go. (You can save the condolences, incidentally... we appreciate them, but the guy was 96 years old and lived 95.5 of them *on his own*! I hope to do so well.) Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:17:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG> Subject: Vancouver International Amateur Brewers Competition HBD'ers: The Royal Canadian Malted Patrol will be hosting Vancouver International Amateur Brewer's Competition on Saturday June 21st 1997. The Competition will be held in conjunction with the Vancouver International Micro Brewer's Festival. Naturally, we will be looking for qualified beer judges to sample and rate what we hope will be a quality showing of beers! This year we hope for 125-150 entries. I would like to take this opportunity to invite you to judge with us this year. Judges will receive a compliment- ary admission to the beer fesitival. Please RSVP if you can attend. Ideally we would like 30 qualified judges to attend. During the evening of June 21st, we will have a banquet at Sailor Hagars Brew Pub, which the judges are most welcome to attend. Sailor Hagars has put on a couple of banquets for homebrewers in Vancouver and the food and especially the beer has been most excellent. There is some limitation as to the number of Banquet tickets so please RSVP as soon as possible to avoid disappointment. Please arrive between 08:30-09:15. Judging will begin at 09:30 Saturday June 21st at the beer festival site, the Plaza of Nations, on Pacific Avenue, S.E. of B.C. Place Stadium, Vancouver B.C. Parking will be expensive, so Carpool-it if possible. We will have 10 categories: 1) American Ales 2) English Ales 3) Wheat and German Ales 4) Dark Beers (Porters, Stouts and Browns) 5) Light Lagers 6) Dark Lagers 7) Belgians 8) Strong Beers 9) Specialty (Fruit, Smoked and cider) 10) Specialty (Spiced, Sake and Meads). Categories may be resorted if necessary. If you would like to enter beers, the closing for entries is June 14th and cost is $5 and 2 bottles of beer! Please mark entry with style/sub- style (BJCP or AHA) as well as VIABC category. Entries can be delivered to Spagnols (1325 Derwent Way, New Westminster, B.C. V3M 5V9) and at other selected locations (we have a U.S. mailing site this year). Please call Russ Morris for details (604-526-2573, SLIDES at UNIXG.UBC.CA) about entries and drop-off locations, or myself Jim Cave, (days 604-684-8081, eves 987-8262, CAVE at PSC.ORG) for judging arrangements. Thank you! Jim Cave Return to table of contents
Date: 15 May 97 13:18:48 -0700 From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com> Subject: Upright Freezer First off, thanks too the multitude of people who responded to my question about an upright freezer. By far, most people: 1) Warned me against an upright freezer because most upright freezers have cooling coils in the shelves which prevent the shelves from being moved. As a result, many will not fit carboys/kegs. 2) Prefer a chest freezer because the storage space is much more convienient for brewing purposes. However, some people did respond that they had good success with an upright freezer. I guess that it all depends on how the interior space of the freezer is organized. I'm going to hold out for a chest freezer. Anyone in Dallas have an old one they aren't using? Thanks again, Eric Schoville eschovil at us.oracle.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:47:06 -0400 From: Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com> Subject: re: which hop calculation method? Tinseth, Rager, Garetz. All are ways to *estimate* how many IBUs your beer will have given how much hops you put in when it is impractical as a homebrewer to actually measure the finished product. These formulas are better than a guess but three factors greatly affect utilization. Your particular brewing process, the form of the hops (flowers, plugs, pellets) and the diff. between the aa printed on the package and the actual aa (time decay). Only experience will tell. - -- Art asteinm at pipeline.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:44:29 -0400 From: Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com> Subject: Henry's Law This got me to thinking. Are those "fizz keeper" products a scam. You know, the pumps that attach to PET bottles to repressurize them...with ambient air. That shouldn't stop the CO2 from coming out of solution, right? As a corollary question, why can't I "carbonate" with ambient air (mostly nitrogen)? Won't air go into solution under pressure and create bubbles as it comes out of solution in the glass? I understand the flavor contribution of carbonic acid won't be present. - -- Art asteinm at pipeline.com Brewmeister, janitor Brauerei Steinmetz Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:59:00 -0400 From: Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com> Subject: Brass Ball Valves, Fittings, etc > Are stainless ball valves a necessity or will brass do the job without > any adverse effects. The SABCO RIMs system I have offers brass valves standard or stainless as an upgrade. Presumably these brass valves are "food grade." - -- Art asteinm at pipeline.com Brewmeister, janitor Brauerei Steinmetz Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:31:55 +0000 From: Richard Gontarek <gontarek at voicenet.com> Subject: Yeast infections/high final gravity due to honey Hi All, Paul said the following: "Use of common yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, for home baking and brewing may be contributing to yeast infections in women. One commercial strain was isolated from three of 16 patients with vaginitis in a study performed at the California Institute of Medical Research... To which Ray replied: "I thought that Candida Albicans (sp?) was responsible for women's yeast infections. My wife is prone to them, and she will kill me if my beers are the cause of them. (Of course, then she will have to buy all those tasty English, Irish, and Belgian ales she love)." I am not a microbiologist per se, but I am a molecular biologist working at a pharmaceutical company with some experience in antimicrobials and antifungals. Ray is right: indeed, the fungal species Candida albicans is responsible for the majority of certain types of nasty fungal infections in women, as well as other systemic fungal infections in immunocompromised patients (including AIDS patients), patients with prosthetic devices, cancer patients, and patients undergoing long-term antibiotic therapy. I would be surprised if ordinary S. cerevisiae strains were responsible for yeast infections in women. I would be even more surprised if any study could identify *any* strain of yeast as being a "commercial" strain, since such comparisons would likely involve more detailed study of genotype and phenotype rather than by cell appearance alone. I'd be interested in the published reference from Paul about the results of the study at the California Institute of Medical Research. In a search of the literature, I did find one reference in the last decade that reported three cases of severe Saccharomyces infections. It was unclear how the patients contracted the infection, but I'm sure it wasn't from drinking homebrew. One caveat the authors of this study noted is that since Saccharomyces is a common contaminant in our environment (ie, it can contaminate lab samples), unequivocal evidence should be put forth to show the relationship between an infection and the clinical presence of Saccharomyces. Sorry for the above diversion from brewing... Anybody ever have a problem with high final gravity from a beer using honey? I've used honey many times before, and the beers always fermented to completion. I made a honey-lemon-wheat two weeks ago that is still sitting at 1.020 (fermenting with Wyeast 1056, all grain except for the honey). I have never had problems before with this yeast, and I did take care to aerate and ferment at the proper temp, etc. I did use cheapo honey from the grocery store this time, 'cause the higher quality honey was not available. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. Later, Rick Gontarek Owner/Brewmaster The Major Groove Picobrewery, Meadery, and barbecuery Trappe, PA Return to table of contents