HOMEBREW Digest #2422 Tue 20 May 1997

[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]

		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  BadTiming/Cool Chicks (eric fouch)
  Little Apple Brewing Compan ("Fred Mitchell")
  Re: Increase in temperature during fermentation (Jim Wallace)
  5L Minikeg British Bitter - low carbonation? (dbrigham)
  combining yeasts for fermentation (dbrigham)
  partial boil extract brews too dark (dbrigham)
  Offensive language/Keg fermenter (John Wilkinson)
  yeast language offensive??? (Rae Christopher J)
  Marinaded? Hmmmm. (pbabcock.ford)
  Help- Kegs & fitting what do I have??? ("Trollhattan Motors, Inc.")
  Brewers Pitch ("Ralph l. Gifford")
  keg airlock (John_E_Schnupp)
  Think before you speak/post (John_E_Schnupp)
  Is Your Web Site A Secret? (owl)
  Cold storage and diacetyl (Brewers Beer Gear)
  Keg fermenting (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  IBUs (Jason Henning)

NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS: hbd.org Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hbd.org (Articles are published in the order they are received.) If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to homebrew-request@hbd.org. BUT PLEASE NOTE that if you subscribed via the BEER-L redistribution list (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU), you must unsubscribe by sending a one line e-mail to listserv at ua1vm.ua.edu that says: UNSUB BEER-L NOTE: If you have SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail! For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org Homebrew Digest Information on the Web: http://hbd.org Please don't send requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored. Previous issues are available via: Anonymous ftp from... hbd.org /pub/hbd ftp.stanford.edu /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer E-mail... ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com (send a one-line e-mail message with the word help for instructions.) AFS users can find it under... /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:37:08 -0500 (EST) From: eric fouch <S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021.efouch%Steelcase-Inc at mcimail.com> Subject: BadTiming/Cool Chicks - --Boundary (ID i.g+01I_J1YG9K,7UY9-1VV9.9DGI1IG) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii - ----------------------------- Application message id: STC010 970519083414933491 Posted date: MON MAY 19, 1997 4:34 am GMT Importance: Normal Grade of Delivery: Normal - ----------------------------- - --Boundary (ID i.g+01I_J1YG9K,7UY9-1VV9.9DGI1IG) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: 7 BIT ASCII Date: Monday, 19 May 1997 8:32am ET To: STC012.HOMEBREW at STC010.SNADS From: Eric.Fouch at STC001 Subject: BadTiming/Cool Chicks In-Reply-To: The letter of Monday, 19 May 1997 2:37am ET HBD- Laura complains: ~"Can we ditch the gyno-discussion?" I guess this would be a bad time to repost my question regarding the use of Monostat 7 as a fermentation inhibitor? Eric Fouch Bent Dick YactoBrewery Kentwood, MI "Chicks who brew are cool" - Me - --Boundary (ID i.g+01I_J1YG9K,7UY9-1VV9.9DGI1IG)-- Return to table of contents
Date: 19 May 1997 07:51:26 -0800 From: "Fred Mitchell" <ALFRED.W.MITCHELL at cpmx.saic.com> Subject: Little Apple Brewing Compan I have been a subscriber (and largely a lurker) to the HBD for almost two years now. I have learned a lot of really super information that I have used to pass along in my previous functions as editor of the San Diego Society of Barley Engineers monthly "Brewsletter". One of the most ardent and (to me anyway) dedicated contributors to this list during this time has been Rob Moline, head brewmaster of the Little Apple Brewing Company in Manhattan, Kansas. This past week I was in Manhattan to attend the college (Kansas State University is located in Manhattan) graduation of my son. We took the opportunity to sample the brews at Little Apple. I met with and had a long discussion on brewing with Rob. He showed me his brewing operation and the many challenges he has had to sucessfully overcome to not only meet a commercial operation's demands but also put out a top notch product. For all who read this list, should your travels take you through Kansas, you should try to schedule a stop in Manhattan. Not only is it a picture postcard small college town, but the stop at Little Apple would be well worth it. Rob was a most gracious host and led us through a sampling of all his products. While I am not (yet) a certified AHA judge, I can testify from my many samplings of not only our own club's brews, but tastings from the Southern California Homebrew Association's last three major festivals, that Rob's entire line is all top quality. The care and attention to detail in all his brews is readily evident. In particular his gold medal winning "Big 12 Barleywine" and his authentic layered Black & Tan were real crowd pleasers. While endorsements of commercial operations is not the purpose of this list, I wanted to publicly thank Rob for his hospitality and sharing of his brewing talents. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:04:32 -0500 From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com> Subject: Re: Increase in temperature during fermentation ===Jeff Writes==================== I recently brewed a batch of Oatmeal Stout from an extract recipe (OG = 1.058). The basement temperature is a pretty constant 68 deg F and the wort temperature was also 68 deg when fermentation commenced. I noticed that at peak fermentation (burping about 80/min) the temperature, according to the Fermometer, was about 72 or 73 deg. ================================== in all of my fermentations I use fermentstrips on my fermenters and place a thermometer in a liter of liquid alongside the fermenter... this gives me the ambient temp and the water buffers it from quick changes. I quite often note a temp difference between this and fermenter of up to 4 degrees during strong fermentation. ___________________________________________ JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com I travel to the wild places of this planet and would like to share what I see.... ...http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace ___________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 97 11:29:58 EST From: dbrigham at nsf.gov Subject: 5L Minikeg British Bitter - low carbonation? I am about to brew a 'typical' British Bitter - low alcohol and low carbonation. I'm a bottle condition/5L minikeg person - no force carbonation/full size kegs for me yet. So - the question - can I with bottles, or preferably the 5L minikegs, end up with a reasonable fascimile of a draught 'Pub' British Bitter - in terms of carbonation? If I can - what hints on amount of sugar for priming and reliance on CO2 cartridges (or hand air-pump) to force the ale out of the minikegs? Thanx!!! Dana Brigham ...As he brews, so shall he National Science Foundation drink. dbrigham at nsf.gov Ben Johnson 1573-1637 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 97 11:31:11 EST From: dbrigham at nsf.gov Subject: combining yeasts for fermentation What is the concensus on combining strains of yeast for fermentation - as in combining different strains of ale yeast in order to get specific characteristics associated with the yeast being combined? I know that Wyeast does sell some packages which are combinations of yeast (like their 'mild' German wheat (sorry, don't recall the number) yeast which uses a mild ale strain and a traditional wiezen strain) - so it must work in some cases. I don't think I'm crazed enough (YET!) to try combining ale and lager yeasts - but does anyone have any experience, warnings, anecdotes, triumphs to share? Thanx!!! Dana Brigham ...As he brews, so shall National Science Foundation he drink. dbrigham at nsf.gov Ben Johnson 1573-1637 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 97 11:40:01 EST From: dbrigham at nsf.gov Subject: partial boil extract brews too dark I currently boil my extract/partial mash batches in 3 gallon volumes (5 gallon final recipe volume) due to limited overhead space on the stove. I use a 'generic' stainless stock pot, and I have fitted one of those cast iron 'hot plates' to the front 8" burner on my electric range. The hot plate thing does a real good job at evenly distributing the heat (and it stays hot for a *LONG* time after the burner is off). But I am consistently getting darker batches than I plan on. There is some caramelization of the sugars on the bottom of the pot - but not too much, at least to my untrained eye. I do try to stir often (but not constantly) and I do full 60 minute boils. I assume (since most don't say) that the recipes I find in the Internet, homebrew mags and my books are generally for a full 5 gallon boil. So - without cutting back on body/flavor adding ingredients, how can I 'lighten up' the color of my homebrew given my current constraints of not enough room for a pot big enough to do a full 5 gallon boil? Am I lacking in some technique? Is it my karma? Should I really get clear lenses and get rid of these Photo-Grey ones in my glasses? Thanks!!! Dana Brigham ...As he brews, so shall he National Science Foundation drink. dbrigham at nsf.gov Ben Johnson 1573-1637 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 97 13:37:44 CDT From: jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: Offensive language/Keg fermenter >From a Ray Estrella post: > Hello to all, >Laura hisses, > >>Thanks to Rae Christopher J for the scientific discussion, but, could you all >>do us gals out here a favor and ditch the gyno-discussion? I have already >>dressed down the poor guy who posted the original. This kind of stuff is >>pretty offensive to the female brewers/readers out there. If I want to read >>about that sort of thing I'll find another news group. >>Tsssssssssssss, steam let off, going back to my bowl of milk, > >I was one of the people that asked for further clarification concerning an >earlier post suggesting that the yeast in homebrew could set off yeast >infections. As I said before my wife is very susceptible to them, and I do not >think it is offensive to her that I (and obviously others) would want to know >more. If you have information about beers effects on prostrate health I >promise >to read with an uncritical eye, and not dress you down for it. This digest is >for everyone, if you don't like a post, just hit PgDn. Maybe the next one will >be to your liking. I guess I missed what Laura was talking about and commented on the wrong thing. I thought she was talking about coarse language in HBD. If not, I have to agree with Ray. I don't see why anyone would find what he said offensive. As usual I continue to be in the dark. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bret wrote: >I bought a 10 gallon corny keg so I wouldn't need a blowoff tube (I do >5 gal batches). I filled the headspace with CO2. My question has to >do with yeast's ability to grow/reproduce in a pressurized >environment. I've seen some people making 12psi relief valves using a >poppet spring from an extra tank plug, while others simply release the >pressure once per day (my choice). > >Does anyone have any experience with this? I ferment in a 10 gallon keg that has an old style relief valve that is held onto the lid with a large plastic nut inside. I removed the relief valve and use an airlock with a #2 stopper or a blow off hose in the hole if I expect a vigorous ferment. I used to remove the gas in fitting and slip a hose over the threaded projection it was screwed to. The other end of the hose was in a jar of water. Perhaps I am misunderstanding again but why fill the headspace with CO2? It should be full of air or even O2 at pitching time and will fill with CO2 naturally as fermentation proceeds. John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at imtn.dsccc.com - ----- End Included Message ----- Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:51:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Rae Christopher J <3cjr7 at qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: yeast language offensive??? This message has been pirated by Jimena Bordes, the partner of Rae Christopher J. Laura and J Wilkinson seem to me to be easily offended. I think it is wonderful to live in a world where men, particularly the one I'm "stuck" with, are interested and informed about problems that they, in all likelyhood, will never experience. 30 years ago, men were uninterested in the process of pregnancy and childbirth, kept out of the delivery room, and understood when they said they had no interest in helping to raise the children...that was "woman stuff". Today, happily, they are involved and supportive (or at least most are) in many aspects of thier partner's lives. What happened here was one concerned man reaching out to the collective for help on a _beer-related_ issue. He got a few good responses, which hopefully will allow his wife to enjoy the products of the collective's efforts. Nowhere in the responses was rudeness, crudeness, or lewdness. If simple, concerned, discussion of a problem that 80% of all women (and therefore ~40% of the population of earth) is offensive, then perhaps you need to look deep within yourself to find out why. I am also a little offended myself to read that I am offended by this discussion. Perhaps you might have done better to state that _you_ were offended, not that "women readers and brewers" were. Please don't speak for me if you don't know me. No apology for piracy. ___________________________________________________________ This is Jimena's signature: JB-_-_- Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:52:26 EDT From: pbabcock.ford at e-mail.com Subject: Marinaded? Hmmmm. Pat Babcock Internet: pbabcock.ford at e-mail.com VO Body Launch Specialist- PN150/1 EAP ****>>>> PLEASE USE PF5 WHEN REPLYING TO THIS NOTE!!!! <<<<**** Subject: Marinaded? Hmmmm. Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... In HBD 2421, Dave "in Indy" Bradley spake thusly: "As I say, at the very worst I'll have 10gal of marinade for brats!" Really? Is soaking your children in beer generally accepted in Indiana? I'll have to try that... Best regards, Patrick G. Babcock PN150/1 Launch - Edison Assembly Plant (908)632-5930 x5501 Route 1 South, Edison, NJ 08818-3018 Fax (908)632-4546 Page 800-SKY-PAGE PIN: 544-9187 Best regards, Patrick G. Babcock PN150/1 Launch - Edison Assembly Plant (908)632-5930 x5501 Route 1 South, Edison, NJ 08818-3018 Fax (908)632-4546 Page 800-SKY-PAGE PIN: 544-9187 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 97 13:54:12 -0500 From: "Trollhattan Motors, Inc." <direct at cybertroll.com> Subject: Help- Kegs & fitting what do I have??? Hello all... I have 8 old stainless kegs, they are rounded made by Firestone for Schaefer Beer Company. It has a wooden bong in the side and a screw type fitting in the top. Similar to the Hoff-Stevens (SP) except it has only one hole for the probe. The screw in adapter is also marked Schaefer / Draft Systems (DS), and has a 3 lug nut to screw onto the keg. It has a single stainless probe with two o-rings. The co2 line connects to the of the PLASTIC body of the connector, via a hose barb. What do I have? I would like to get some replacement o-rings for the one connector I have, also get an extra adapter, since the body is made of plastic, I am afraid it may break. Any assistance would be appreciated. Private e-mail is fine... Cheers, Bob bob at cybertroll.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:04:23 -0400 From: "Ralph l. Gifford" <rkgiffor at epix.net> Subject: Brewers Pitch In a number of books and articles on colonial brewing, wooden casks etc. they talk about BREWERS PITCH. It is described as the substance used for making old mash tubs water tight etc. How does one make Brewers Pitch and what are the ingredients? Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:36:48 -0700 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: keg airlock In the HBD #2421 Bret had the following lament about corny keg fermenting: >I decided to try fermenting in a corny keg - it's indestructible, has >nice handles on it, you can get hydrometer readings and transfer using >CO2, etc. The only down-side is you can't count "glugs" from the >fermentation lock so you know something's happening. I'd like to suggest a humble solution: Sacrifice a lid and drill a hole in the center large enough to accommodate a drilled stopper. A #2 = 3/4" and a #5 1/2 = 1". I have a 1/2" titanium coated drill bit that I use to drill holes in my lids for valve stems. A chassis punch could also be used. Over a year ago I wrote an article concerning using valve stems in PET bottle lids as a carbonation cap. An off-shoot of this idea was to install valve stems on my kegs. I often have more kegs filled with beer awaiting consumption than I have room in my fridge. In order to obtain the "correct", or should I say desired, carbonation level I need to apply a different CO2 pressure to the kegs that are not in the fridge that those that are. A valve stem on the keg and an air chuck on the end of a CO2 line make this task so much easier. Hope this provides you and others with some useful ideas. I'm a gadget type of guy and it seems like I'm always tinkering with ideas like this. I'm also a field service engineer, which means that one of my main goals is taking breaks, this in turn prompts me to always be looking for a better, faster and less painful way to get the job done. John Schnupp, N3CNL Colchester, VT john_e_schnupp at amat.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:38:23 -0700 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: Think before you speak/post Here I go again, poking my head out of my cave and getting on my own little soap box. I'd like to address the recent yeast infection thread and the spat it created as well as the recent pokes (not sure if they were in jest but I'd bet they weren't) at AlK. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I'm surely not going to tell anyone to "shut up and sit down", goodness knows that I'm very opinionated and outspoken myself. I would like to point out, however, that we as a group are getting dangerously close to turning the HBD digest backing a personal attack digest. (At least that's they way I remembered it being just before it died it's FIRST death a few months ago). When it died I didn't sign back up for quite a while because of that very reason. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw the digest was back and was ecstatic that the attacks and slanderous comments had stopped and discussion had gotten back to the real reason we all subscribe, BEER. I now return you to the regularly scheduled discussion on the fine art of brewing. The views expressed in this editorial are not necessarily those of the management. Please address opposing points of view to: John Schnupp, N3CNL Colchester, VT john_e_schnupp at amat.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:22:23 -0400 (EDT) From: owl at owlsnest.com Subject: Is Your Web Site A Secret? Is your web site the best kept secret on the Internet? We'll promote it to 50 search engines and indexes for $85 and complete the job in 2 business days. Satisfaction is guaranteed! If you have a great product, but are not getting many inquiries from your Web site, you may not be adequately listed on the Web's search engines and indexes. Millions of viewers daily use these facilities to find the products and services they are looking for. But if your site is not listed, no one will see it. Listings on most of these services are free. However, locating and filling out the forms required to get a listing can take several days, and most people just don't have the time to do it. That is why we offer a web site promotion service. WHAT'S THE DEAL? We will submit your site to 50 indexes and search engines for $85. We will accept the return of this E-mail, with the form below filled out, as an order. We will bill you upon completion of the promotion. Our terms are net 15 days from date of invoice. Satisfaction guaranteed! HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE? Generally, we complete the submissions within 48 hours of receiving your order. It can take any individual search engine or index up to three weeks to process your submission, although most are much faster. WHAT SEARCH ENGINES AND INDEXES ARE INCLUDED IN THE PROMOTION? The list changes from time to time. This is our current list: Abaweb!, Alta Vista, Been There, BizWeb, Central Source Yellow Pages, Enterpreneurs on the Web, Excite, Four11, Galaxy, I-Network I-Systems Spiral Business Directory, I-World Web Pointer, Infoseek, Inktomi, Innovator's Network Yellow Pages, Internet Mall, Jayde Online Directory, Jumpcity, Jumper Hot Links, Linkmaster, Lycos, Magellan, Mega Mall, Net-Happenings, Net Navigator, Net Mall, NTG's List, NYNEX Big Yellow, One World Plaza, OnLine's WWWeb Index, Rex, Starting Point, Truenorth, URL Tree, Virtual Lynx, Web Point, WebCentral, Web Venture Hotlist, Webcrawler, Websurf, Win Mag/NetGuide Hotspots, WhatUSeek, Worldwide Announce Archive, WWW Business Yellow Pages, World Wide Yellow Pages, WWW Worm, YelloWWWeb. HOW WILL I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE PROMOTED MY SITE? When we have completed the promotion, we will send you an HTML file as an attachment to your E-mail bill. Save this file to your disk, and view it through your Web browser. It provides links to the search engine we submitted your site to, plus any comments we received from them when we did it. ARE THERE ANY GUARANTEES? We do not require prepayment. Your satisfaction is guaranteed or you don't pay the bill. WHO IS OWL'S EYE PRODUCTIONS? We are a web site promotion company located at: Owl's Eye Productions, Inc. 260 E. Main Street Brewster, NY 10509 Phone: (914) 278-4933 Fax: (914) 278-4507 Email: owl at owlsnest.com HOW DO I ORDER? The easiest way to order is by e-mail. Just hit the REPLY button on your e-mail program and fill out the following information. (This information will be posted to the search engines/indexes): Your name: Company Name: Address: City: State/Prov: Zip/Postal Code: Telephone: Fax: Email address: URL: http:// Site Title: Description (about 25 words): Key words (maximum of 25, in descending order of importance): Proofs (Where shall we e-mail proofs): If billing a different address, please complete the following: Addressee: Company Name: Address: City: State/Prov: Zip/Postal Code: Telephone: Fax: Email address: We will bill via Email. (7519) Terms: By returning this document via Email, you agree as follows: You have the authority to purchase this service on behalf of your company. Terms are net 15 days. Accounts sent to collections will be liable for collection costs. You agree to protect and indemnify Owl's Eye Productions, Inc. in any claim for libel, copyright violations, plagiarism, or privacy and other suits or claims based on the content or subject matter of your site. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? When we receive your order, we will input the information into our system, and send you a proof. After we process any corrections, we will run your promotion, capturing any comments from search engines as we go. We will incorporate these into an HTML-formatted report to you, which we will attach to your bill. ===Web Promotions=====Press Releases=====Link Exchanges========= Owl's Eye Productions, Inc. 260 E. Main Street Brewster, NY 10509 Ph: 914-278-4933 Fx: 914-278-4507 E-mail: owlseye at owlsnest.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:52:20 -0700 From: Brewers Beer Gear <brewers at brewgear.com> Subject: Cold storage and diacetyl Just wanted to respond to Spencer Thomas' May 15 article that stated: "Aging cold will reduce esters, diacetyl, etc., giving you a more 'lager-like' flavor." Actually, the opposite is true of diacetyl. Aging cold does not reduce diacetyl; on the contrary, both diacetyl production and reduction are accelerated at higher (i.e. room) temperatures; since most ales are fermented in primary at 60-70 degrees F, that means that moving them to cold storage(i.e. 32-50 degrees F) before all the freshly-produced diacetyl has had a chance to also be reduced at the warmer temp will actually slow and eventually halt diacetyl reduction. That is why many commercially produced lagers go through one or more "diacetyl rests" where they are allowed to warm up for a period of several hours at a time to stimulate diacetyl reduction. It's also why English ales are "warm conditioned" at 50-55 degrees after only a few days in primary. And it's why many brewpub beers are considered "green" when served - they are often transferred to cold storage after as few as only 3 days. If you want to cold condition your ales, the ultra-safe rule to ensure minimal residual diacetyl is to wait 8-12 days after the start of the fermentation before moving the beer to cold storage, however, generally 5-7 days will be sufficient with most yeast strains (source: notes from Siebel Jan 97 Diploma Course). Remember that the yeast strain used has a strong bearing on this result. Also remember that although some diacetyl is desirable in certain styles, it is generally considered to be a defect (especially in commercially produced beers), especially since an excessive amount can be a result of a pediococcus infection. Hope this helps shed some light. Alex Kohrt brewers at linkline.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:18:16 EDT From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR) Subject: Keg fermenting In response to the brewer who wants to ferment in his cornie keg, don't put any CO2 in the keg, because the yeast needs O2 for it's start of fermenting. Since CO2 is heavier than O2, this will blanket your wort, hindering your intention. The other drawback to this approach is the fact that unless you transfer to another keg after 2-3 weeks, your beer will suffer yeast bite (unless of course you can kill of the keg that quickly!) and other taste funkies.(more big words) If you are making a batch for a party and the people aren't too fussy, this is an easy way to go. Otherwise, if you are looking for an indestructable (mostly) fermenter, I would suggest going with a 6.5 gallon bucket setup, available from your homebrew supply place of choice. This is just my humble opinion, and we all know what opinions are like. Brew well and prosper Paul Haaf haafbrau1 at juno.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:45:23 -0700 From: Jason Henning <huskers at cco.net> Subject: IBUs I use Glenn Tenseth's (sp?) formulas over Jackie Rager's for a couple reasons. Rager's utilizations are in table form. That makes it difficult to use in a spreedsheet or program. Rager tweaks the IBU equation ( u% x AA% x grams / liters ) for high gravity adjustments whereas Tenseth adjusts the u%. Seems more natural to tweak u% to me. I was going through this same debate last year. I was using Rager and a spreedsheet. It was difficult to play with the hop schedule because changing the time also required looking up the u% and changing it. So I started looking for a best fit line of Rager. (math ahead) I found the first derivative is relativily straight upward sloping between 0 and 45. Second derivative to pretty flat between these points. This is (nearly) a parabola. Intergateing twice and solving for the constants, I got u% = .005*t^2 + .18*t +4.25 where t is the minutes in the boil. Works good between 0 and 45 minutes to *estimate Rager's table*. All seemed ok but it's the wrong curve! This isn't how I understand u%. I think u% is a curve thats has declining growth rate. For instance, hops added for an hour, we extract 2/3 of the bitterness in the first 20 minute. We're looking for a curve that is steep for the first 15 minutes or so. then starting to flatten out and finally leveling out at about 30% around the 45 to 60 minute mark. Ragers table is just opposite of this between 0 and 45 minutes. His curve is concave up, needs to be concave down (convex up?). I sure Rager's original article to Zymurgy was a big help to homebrewers in 1990 but I think it just hasn't stood the test of time. Cheers, Jason Henning (huskers at cco.net) Big Red Alchemy and Brewing Olympia, Washington - "It's the water" Return to table of contents