---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Kegging question (Chris North)
  Replies to Yeast Reuse ("Tim M. Dugan")
  ssshhh!! Hop euphoria (Charlie Scandrett)
  HBD Policies (Louis Bonham)
  dry yeast question (Tim Plummer)
  Re: dry hemping ("Keith Royster")
  Cherries in my Stout (William H Plotner)
  sanitizing keg outflow ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Partial Mash & Hot Side Aeration (Brad Manbeck)
  Burners (Randy Ricchi)
  If you're bored.... ("Kelly C. Heflin")
  American Weizen Kit (John Hessling)
  FERMENTATION.... ("Gerardo Godoy")
  Great Divide / Buddies ("Pat Babcock")
  Weizen (David Johnson)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:18:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Chris North <chrisn at infohwy.com>
Subject: Kegging question

About a year ago, when I started considering beginning kegging, a friend of
a friend told me that he had a friend who worked for the Coca-Cola company.
This friend of a friend told me that he could get me some "Coke Kegs", no
problem.  Well, I've been let down by friends enough to know you can't
depend on 'a friend of a friend of a friend', so I got my own kegging
set-up and began kegging.

This week, the 'friend of a friend of a friend' deal came through!  Two pin
lock corny's and a soda-pop tap.  Now I know what to do with the corny's
(clean them, replace the O-rings, get some pin lock fittings and go!), but
can I use the soda pop tap?  It is not one of the "mixing" taps that mixes
the syrup with the product, it is one of the older (I think) type used to
dispense pre-mixed product.

Has anyone used this type to dispense beer?  From looking at it, I would
think it would work, but I though I'd ask.

Thanks,

chris north



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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:40:27 -0500
From: "Tim M. Dugan" <tdugan at netins.net>
Subject: Replies to Yeast Reuse

In HBD #2423 I wrote:

> I have two questions for the great body of knowledge.
>
> First question.  I am fortunate enough to be able to brew on two
> consecutive weekends.  I would like to reuse my yeast from last =
weekend,
> this weekend.  Can I simply rack off my first batch to the secondary,
> and put the second batch right onto the trub and yeast from the first
> batch?  Or should I go through the process and wash the yeast with
> sterile water as described in the Yeast FAQ?
>
> Specifics: The yeast is Yeast Lab A03 London Ale.  Right now it is
> finishing up fermenting a porter, and I am planning on making a =
oatmeal
> stout this weekend.  The starting gravity of the porter was 1.058, and
> the stout will be in the 1.045-1.050 range.
>
> Concerns: Since Ale yeast is top fermenting, will the yeast at the
> bottom of the primary be the "good yeast" or is the "good yeast" still
> suspended and only the weaker yeast is on the bottom?  Will having the
> new batch sitting on top of the old batch's trub cause any trouble?=20
> I'll rack it off in five or six days.

I would like to thank everyone who replied.  The results were =
unanimous...something like 15-0.  Everyone agreed that throwing the new =
batch on top of the old batch's trub and yeast was the best way to go.  =
Though two people said that they only use the yeast from the secondary.

Well I went ahead and used the yeast from my primary and all I can say =
is WOW!  It started bubbling at about six hours, and when I got up this =
morning, it had blown the lid off of my airlock.  There was kraeusen =
everywhere, and it was still bubbling; a big mess, but I loved it!

I want to put out an unsolicited plug for Ray Daniels' new book =
"Designing Great Beers" (ISBN 0-937381-50-0).  I have learned so much =
from this book, Dave Miller taught me how to brew, Ray Daniels shows how =
to brew to style.  (Note: I'm not associated with Ray or his book, blah, =
blah, blah).

Thanks again

Tim M. Dugan

Ps. I'm still looking for any information you might have on a grain bill =
for an Irish Ale.

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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:31:50 +1000 (EST)
From: Charlie Scandrett <merino at buggs.cynergy.com.au>
Subject: ssshhh!! Hop euphoria

Tom Lombardo wrote
>Does anyone know if the sedative effect is related to the bittering or
>aromatic components of the hops?  Or is it something completely different?

The other drug in beer besides alcohol, is hops, in particular
2-Methylbut-3-en-2-ol. 

  H3C
     \
      C-CH=CH2
     /|
  H3C OH

This compound is created by heating during drying and boiling of hops and it
is water soluble. It is a boiling degradation product of beta acids, so
increases after extended storage of hops. I am sure this is why Lambic
brewers use very old hops, they couldn't really like the taste of the stuff?

I am translating a German article on it at present from Z. fur Naturforsch.
It seems it would be maximised without high IBUs by massive mash hopping
using old hops and increases during the boiling of the resulting wort. This
may  not produce a smooth bitterness, but could be somewhat more-ish?

I don't think it would be a great idea to publicise the fact that a relative
of marijuana (hops) has a mild narcotic effect in beer? The slight light
headed sedative effect would overpowered by an exponential amount of
prohibitionist hysteria! 

Busted for smokin beer, a bummer trip man!

Charlie (Brisbane, Australia)
That was a great Chimay red label.....yawn....zzzzzz


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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:46:26 -0500
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: HBD Policies

Bruce Baker had the following question regarding the HBD guidelines:

> 1.      Our guiding principle is that the HBD should not censor or
>         delete *any* message that deals with beer or brewing.  The
>         only exception is where the message *itself* is *clearly*
>         against the law; for example, a post containing an illegal
>         solicitation of investors for a microbrewery would be
>         deleted, but posts discussing marijuana beer or home
>         distilling -- while not encouraged -- would not
> 
> Why is a message soliciting investors for a microbrewery illegal?  
> It sounds like free speech to me.  It might contravene some other 
> HBD rule against commercial solicitation, but it seems far less 
> odious than a lot of stuff on the net.

As the member of the steering committee who suggested this language,
I'll take the liberty of responding.  I suggested this language 
because in my law practice I've encountered a number of well-meaning
would-be microbrewers who have told me something like "Hey, I've 
got a great idea for getting capital for a micro -- we'll get 
investors from posts on HBD and other places on the net!"   

Public solicitation for investors is tightly regulated in the US, 
both by federal and state law.  Generally, if you want to 
publically solicit investors, you must comply with myriad state 
and federal registrations and pre-approvals.  [Read: extremely 
expensive and time consuming]  Solicitation without doing so is 
usually treated as securities fraud -- a crime and very bad heat.  

Most small businesses seeking investors utilize various "private
placement" exceptions to the securities laws.  While these laws
vary from state to state, they are consistent in one important
respect -- they include a complete ban on public solicitation, 
i.e., they are "private placements."

As for the free speech issue, I'll spare the HBD the first year 
law school discussion on the distinctions between commercial and 
private speech rights.  Suffice it to say that there are lots of 
people in jail in the US who have found out that the securities
laws do not violate the first amendment.  [Trust me, this isn't
even an arguable position.]  The laws may be different in other
countries, but insofar as this digest is hosted in the US, we've 
gotta comply with US law.

Bottom line: don't even think of advertising for investors (be it
here or anywhere else) without very, very good legal advice that
you can do so without landing in jail.    

Note that this response is mine, and does not necessarily speak 
for other members of the Steering Committee, yadda yadda yadda . . .

Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at phoenix.net

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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:17:04 -0700
From: Tim Plummer <plummer at brick.purchase.edu>
Subject: dry yeast question

Hello homebrewers,

I have a newbie question about dry yeast.  I just finished brewing my
5th batch.  It was my second with dry yeast.  (I try to use liquid when
possible.)  Within only a couple of hours, fermentation was fast and
furious, and remained that way all through the day following pitching. 
However, this morning (day 2 since pitching) it has come to a dead
stop.  No activity in the airlock.  Similar, but not so dramatic,
activity happened the only other time I used dry yeast.

Is dry yeast naturally less attenuating than liquid yeast?  What is up
with the rocket starts and dead stops?  

Thanks,

Tim Plummer (Port Chester, NY)

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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:48:59 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: Re: dry hemping

AndrewsBru at aol.com asks:

> I have always considered making beer with marijuana in it but
> never knew any recipes or how I should go about it.

Pat Babcock says in his message regarding new HBD posting policies 
that this subject is discouraged (but will not be censored).  I've 
never quite understood why so many consider this question either 
taboo or silly (other than it's been asked before, but so has just 
about every question here), so I'll respond.

This subject pops up occasionally on the HBD, so try checking the
archives for more information. From what I've seen and heard 
discussed here, I'd say don't waste your time or money. The THC in 
pot is not water soluble but is alcohol soluble. The alcohol 
content in beer just isn't high enough to extract much THC. Even with 
a barleywine, I've seen recipies that call for about an ounce per 
gallon. Unless you're a grower, I don't see how anyone can afford to 
make a batch of beer like that!

> If anyone knows any extract recipes or how you would go about
> adding it to an already existing recipe.

I suppose you could steep it in something like vodka or grain alcohol 
and then dump the resulting liquid in your beer, although I still 
have no idea how much to use. Either way, it sounds like an expensive 
and wasteful experiment to me.

Keith Royster - keith at ays.net
 at your.service - http://www.ays.net
 Web Services - Design & Hosting starts  at  $60/yr!
  Voice & Fax - (704) 662-9125
   Mooresville/Charlotte, NC

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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:44:12 EDT
From: billp4 at juno.com (William H Plotner)
Subject: Cherries in my Stout

HBD'ers,
I've been reading the HBD for a while and finally have a question to
post.
I am fermenting a cherry stout. The question is, how long do I want to
keep the cherries in the primary? Normally, I wait until the vigorous
fermentation is done then rack into my secondary.Usually jest a few days.
 Would I want to leave it in the primary longer? How much longer?
Thanks for any help.
Bill Plotner
Colorado Springs
Billp4 at Juno.com
In Search of the Eternal Brew

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Date-warning: Date header was inserted by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Subject: sanitizing keg outflow

mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff) writes:
>  A couple of weeks ago I posted a question about how other people
>sanitize the outlet side of a ball valve drain mounted to a converted
>keg kettle.
>
>  I got back a total of 8 responses (6 via private email and 2 here
>in the digest). [3 different methods listed]

I missed this question.  My answer is...I don't do anything.

Actually, I never thought about this before.  I haven't had a
problem either, so I guess I don't need to change my methods.
But during the > 1 hr boil, the sides of the keg near the bottom get
pretty hot.  I have my ball valve connected directly to the nipple.
I'm guessing the heat from the burner would kill anything that 
might be growing in there.  I may try the alcohol method now
though.

  - Bryan Gros
    grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
    Music City Brewers, Nashville TN


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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:38:32 -0500
From: Brad Manbeck <bmanbeck at isd.net>
Subject: Partial Mash & Hot Side Aeration


I am an extract / specialty grain brewer with about 35 batches under my =
belt. I am interested in moving to partial mashes to take the next step =
towards all-grain.

Here is my proposed method. I want to take between 2 and 4 pounds of =
grain and mash with 1.25 quarts of water per pound at around 150 degrees =
for 30 to 45 minutes. Previously I used two grain bags for my grain. =
With the grain bags I was afraid I didn't get the optimal extraction =
that I could have.

What I'd like to do now is leave the grain loose. For my sparge I would =
like to pour the grain water mixture through a strainer followed by 180 =
degree water. Then continue with the boil and extract additions, etc.

Now my main question is do I need to be concerned with hot side aeration =
at this point, or do you only need to be concerned with hot side =
aeration after the boil is finished? Are there any other major flaws =
with my proposed quasi mash? Does anyone else use this method? If so, =
are you happy with the results.

Personal email responses are fine. I will repost the results once I get =
them summarized.

Thanks in advance for all the advice.

Brad Manbeck
bmanbeck at isd.net


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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:29:01 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Burners

Kent Tracy commented that his friend could not bring a 33 qt enamelware
kettle to a boil on his electric stove.  I used to have the same problem.
Finally, I looked under the kettle and saw that it was only resting on the
outside edges of the two burners I was using.  The sheet metal stove top
must have had a slight downward flex between the burners.  After I saw
that, I bought a Cache cooker from Northern Hydraulics.  130 bazillion
BTU's, propane, single burner. It was around $65 or $70 three or four years
ago.  There are many other brands on the market as well.  I can tell you, a
dedicated high output burner is the only way to go.  My wife even likes it
for browning meat for large batches of spaghetti sauce, etc., because it's
so much faster than the conventional stove.  Keep that in mind if you need
to justify the expense to your spouse.


R.B.Ricchi

"Should anyone thirst, let them come unto me and drink"

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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:59:20 -0700
From: "Kelly C. Heflin" <kheflin at monmouth.com>
Subject: If you're bored....

If you're sitting out there reading this digest, but you
are getting tired of making the same unexciting brew, over
and over... Do what I did.

Make yourself a nasty Porter. Even if you dont like Porters
like myself. I mad me a Honey Porter with 2 lbs of fresh
Honey, and man was it good. I had the keg to myself for about 
3 days at home, took it to a party sunday and it's history.
I finally got some rave reviews. I took a nice fresh Vienna
Lager to the party also, but brought it home full. Not that it
wasnt good, the Porter was great. I had to spend a lot of time
warning people about the alcohol content. The stuff fermented
from 1.07 to 1.01, yea it was strong. 
I dont usually bother sharing my recipes, but if anyone wants
it let me know. I just gonna recommend lightening it up a bit
with the malt and honey to reduce the alcohol.

Well anyway, it wasnt boring..
see ya
kelly

kheflin at monmouth.com
- -- 
Kelly C. Heflin
Kheflin at monmouth.com

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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:46:59 -0700
From: John Hessling <hessling at inlink.com>
Subject: American Weizen Kit

I brewed an American Weizen from a malt extract kit.  The kit contained
two 4 lb. cans of Alexander's Wheat malt extract.  After boiling and
adding water to make five gallons, I measured a SG of 1.054.  This was a
bit higher than I expected.  I went ahead and pitched a stepped up
Wyeast  American #1056 (I think) and the fermentation took off prety
quickly and went for almost 10 days at about 65 deg F.  It finally
slowed and I transferred (racked) to a secondary glass carboy for
completion and clearing.  I measured a gravity of 1.016, which is a bit
higher than I expected.  I bottle after about two weeks in the secondary
and the gravity had changed much, about 1.014.

I am no professional at tasting beer, but the brew turned out much
heavier than I had expected.  It is much maltier than a previous brew
which had a much lower SG and OG.

I have a couple of questions about this brew.
1)  Did I start with too high a starting gravity?  Should I have watered
it down a bit?
2)  Did the fermentation not complete?  Was it due to the alcohol
level?  What are the characteristics of the yeast I used?  Is this
typical?  Did I have a stuck fermentation?  Should I have tried to ad
more yeast to get a lower final gravity?

I would appreciate any opinions from someone who might be familiar with
this yeast and malt extract.

I can be reached at:

	hessling at inlink.ocm

Thanks for the help
John Hessling
Maryland Heights, MO

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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:49:23 -0400
From: "Gerardo Godoy" <panasurf at panama.phoenix.net>
Subject: FERMENTATION....

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC6A1E.AC638E20
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have just made my second brew and the same thing happened again. I =
followed all the kit directions to the letter, and made sure of having =
everything well sanitized. Both of my beers have been ales since the =
climate here in Panama is pretty hot. I do control my room temperature =
to about 68-78 F......Fermentation started exactly next day after =
pitching...Bubbling at full speed, you could even dance to it!, then =
KAPUT!...no go, no more action, just silence, but good smell!!!!......My =
first beer came out OK.....everyone drank it and said it was ok, I =
personally did not like it very much, but it defenitly was not "rotten" =
or anything....I could feel a little clorine in it, but I guess it was =
the water.
I just bottled my second batch, and the same thing happened to it...ONE =
day of happy bubbling and KAPUT....silence.....
I have used the liquid yeast that is so popular in the =
catalogs......SHOULD I USE DRY YEAST to get more activity????....Can =
anyone tell me what  I am doing wrong?
SALUDOS FROM
 PANAMA BAY BREWING Ltd.......Gerardo.


- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC6A1E.AC638E20
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<META content=3D'"Trident 4.71.0544.0"' name=3DGENERATOR>

</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have just made my second brew and the =
same thing=20
happened again. I followed all the kit directions to the letter, and =
made sure=20
of having everything well sanitized. Both of my beers have been ales =
since the=20
climate here in Panama is pretty hot. I do control my room temperature =
to about=20
68-78 F......Fermentation started exactly next day after =
pitching...Bubbling at=20
full speed, you could even dance to it!, then KAPUT!...no go, no more =
action,=20
just silence, but good smell!!!!......My first beer came out =
OK.....everyone=20
drank it and said it was ok, I personally did not like it very much, but =
it=20
defenitly was not &quot;rotten&quot; or anything....I could feel a =
little=20
clorine in it, but I guess it was the water.</FONT>

<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I just bottled my second batch, and the =
same thing=20
happened to it...ONE day of happy bubbling and =
KAPUT....silence.....</FONT>

<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have used the liquid yeast that is so =
popular in=20
the catalogs......SHOULD I USE DRY YEAST to get more activity????....Can =
anyone=20
tell me what  I am doing wrong?</FONT>

<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>SALUDOS FROM</FONT>

<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> PANAMA BAY BREWING =
Ltd.......Gerardo.</FONT></P>

</BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC6A1E.AC638E20--


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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:59:13 +0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Great Divide / Buddies

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Has anyone yet extolled the virtues of the Great Divide brewery out
of Denver here? If not, let me be the first (if so, let me the the
x+nth). Last night I sampled their Arapahoe Amber Ale. When the roof
came off at the Frankenmuth Brewery, I mourned for only one of their
brews: Amber Ale. I would normally buy this beer in 5l minis, four
at a time at Christmas, and give them to those I had given
Fass-Frisch Beer King 2000's to. Keeping one or two for myself, of
course. Not since that brew have I sampled one so lip-smackingly
good! The caramel! The hops! Ah! Best drank from a hollowed-out
steers horn ala Dragon's Breath Ale at the Detroit Renaissance
Festival! 

This led me to Hibernation Ale. Mmmmmm. And then to St. Brigid's 
Porter. Ah! Heavenly! (Snigger!) Friends: This is a brewery to be 
reckoned with! Boy, howdy!

 - ---------------------------

As some know, and others don't care about, my job has taken me away 
from Family, friends and (sob!) my brewery. Though I am finding 
entertainment and home brew in passing the craft on to twelve willing 
pupils (every wednesday night in my apartment in Plainsboro, NJ), I 
miss the "home" taste in home brew. And those brews left in my larder 
were not designed to hang around quite as long as I've had them now. 
:-(

Thanks to friend and fellow F.O.R.D. member (Secretary, actually)
Chris Frey, I now have a case of yet another rendition of my Cocoa
and Cream/Nestle's Tollhouse Porter. Not only that, but he brought
by the sample from the hydrometer flask! This promises to be quite a
brew! Irish Oat Meal was substituted for the oats, and one part
"Dutched" baking cocoa was substituted for one part of the Nestle's
Tollhouse baking cocoa. Perhaps Chris, an avid (rabid?) hbd reader
could be coaxed to share the recipe for his rendition here? My
opinion is that he has hit upon a balance between the chocolate,
hops and malt character not present in the original... 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in Canton, Michigan (Western Suburb of Detroit)
pbabcock at oeonline.com  URL: http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/
Visit the HomeBrew Flea Market via my homepage!
URL: http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/


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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:15:41 -0700
From: David Johnson <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: Weizen

Fellow Brewers,
	Sometimes in order to get an answer to a question, you have to 
ask something you think you might know the answer to already. I just made 
a bavarian style weizen. I used wyeast 3068 and it has finished 
fermenting and is now sitting there looking murkily at me. I know that 
this yeast doesn't floc well and that the style can be cloudy but should 
I go ahead and bottle "Big Muddy". If I do, I suppose there are 
appropriate river songs to be sung. I have a sneaking suspicion that it 
might be starch haze (don't ask me to tell what I did, it was pretty 
stupid). Does starch have a bad effect on taste? I have tried to find 
mention of taste problems without success. Is that because there are 
none/few or because it is so bad no one would drink it? If starch causes 
taste problems, I would consider using gelatin and seeing if the yeast 
drops out (would this tell if it is starch?). If it is starch, is there a 
cure? If there are no taste problems, I will sing a few bars of "Deep 
River" and Bottle it.
	On another note, I read (I believe it was in one of Dave Miller's 
books) that one of wyeast's lager yeasts (?2206) when fermented at higher 
temps was a weizen yeast. I used to have a copy of the exact quote and 
one of my fellow brewers read it differently. Has anyone run across this 
besides me? I wouldn't mind a truely dual purpose yeast.
	Dave


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