---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Diacetyl Rest: Classical or Practical? ("Dr. Pivo")
  50% Unmalted Wheat & Conversion ( Wit ) (KennyEddy)
  Propane & Natural Gas / Bubbles in Sparge Line ("F.J. Warner")
  stuck fermentation smells (kathy)
  Re: Soda ("Brian M. Rezac")
  2l Coke bottles (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  Fasch Frisch Replacement Dip Tube (shaun.funk)
  keg sealing ("Bryan L. Gros")
  FW: Underhopping ("Little, Wayne")
  Re: Wheat beer / salt additions ("Hubert Hanghofer")
  CNN online (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: Pondering the imponderable (Jason Henning)
  Re-hydrate Irish Moss? (BernardCh)


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Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 11:43:36 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Diacetyl Rest: Classical or Practical?

In 2429 Al. Korz correctly described the procedure for the classic
German diacetyl rest.  This seems to be often quoted and perpetrated in
the homebrewing circles I've glanced in at.  I would like to point out
that this is far from the only solution to that "problem", and it might
be better to understand a diacetyl rest as "anything that reduces
diacetyls".
	I have recently watched a diacetyl rest taking place which caused about
a 40-50 percent reduction, while REDUCING the temperature from 5C to 3C
over a period of two days.  There was one yeast extraction performed at
the beginning, and one at the end of the rest.
	I have a feeling that with the invasion of CKT technology in the
industry (and even amongst homebrewers?) that these kinds of solutions
will be sought after more and more often.
	So why even bother to mention it?  The production of diacetyls ( and
subsequent resorbtion) is a complicated process that I don't pretend to
understand very well.  It will depend on yeast strain, temperature, AND
the oxidative potential in your goods... some of this stuff is forming
spontaneously.
	Why I suggest a note of caution here, is that there are yeast strains
that under certain conditions will actually PRODUCE diacetyls with a
raising of temperature.  You might want to control that you actually
would have gotten diacetyls without the classical rest, and you are
reducing them with it, before making it a standard part of your lager
brewing.
	The particular German "allergy" to diacetyls in their light lagers (In
professional German brewing circles, Pilsner Urquell is facetiously
referred to as "Diacetylator"), and their traditional diacetyl rest
solution for this, may not be the most efficient or even effective
method for achieving this, with the lagering techniques and yeast
strains that you are using.
	The reason I've invested a bit of thought in this, is I happen to be
one of those that LOVE that diacetyl taste, and have chased it somewhat
methodically.  There are innumerous ways to achieve them (and seemingly,
to my regret, even more ways to lose them), and one might win a bit by
playing with your own yeast strain and lagering conditions, than
slavishly following a tradition.  That method has developed "hand in
hand" with their entire lagering technique, and just MAY have more to do
with the practicality of the ambient temperatures that were available,
than being a particularly efficient technique.
Just some liquid food for thought.
Dr. Pivo

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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:25:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: 50% Unmalted Wheat & Conversion ( Wit )

MarkTomusiak wrote:

"This being said, a few weeks ago I made a Belgian Wit using the standard 50%
 DWC Pils malt and 50% unmalted wheat berries, and while my efficiency was a
little bit lower than usual, the enzymes in the pils malt were clearly able
to convert a lot more than a 15 or 20% adjunct level.  Does anybody have any
thoughts on this discrepancy between theory and practise?"

Just for the record I just made a Wit using 50% Belgian Pils, 45% raw wheat,
and 5% oats, with no conversion problems and like Mark, only slightly lower
efficiency (got 1.047 expecting 1.050).  Mark, did you pre-gelatinize (cook)
the wheat first?  Although an HBD archive search indicated that it's not
necessary to cook the wheat to gelatinize (gel temp is around 130F if I
remember right), I did anyway.  I figured even if it gels in the mash, it'll
still take time and I'd rather do it up front ot give the enzymes easier and
quicker access.

To avoid scorching,  what I did (for this grain bill) was to boil half my
strike water, turn off the heat, add the wheat & oats, and allow to sit 30
minutes, stirring occasionally until the temperature dropped to about 175F.
 This produced essentially cream-o-wheat; thisck and gooey.  I then added the
other half of the strike water (at about 80F), stirred well, then finally
added the pils malt to achieve a mid- to upper-120's temperature.  The
cream-o-wheat temperature should be as high above your target rest temp as
your tap water is below it (48 degrees from 127F in my case) to hit your
target temp right on.  The lautering was a bit slow but never really "stuck";
I did stop once (about 25% through), stir, and recirculate, and this seemed
to help a bunch.

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy

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Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:24:07 -0400
From: "F.J. Warner" <fjwiii at kodak.com>
Subject: Propane & Natural Gas / Bubbles in Sparge Line

I have a few questions needing some insight.

1) I'm setting up a multiple burner unit for brewing with propane but was
wondering what the compatibility to natural gas would be.  I'm pretty sure
the system gas regulator would be different for natural gas, but would the
same burners be appropriate?  Are there orifice size or air mixture ratio
requirements?  Any insight would be great.  I got some info from previous
HBD volumes but not to many specifics with reasons.  I was looking for a
summary called out in HBD 1096 but it does not appear to have been posted.

2) While brewing I have noticed gas bubbles in the outflow from my mash-tun
(Keg with false bottom) while sparging.  More at the beginning while the
mash was hotter than by the end when it had cooled somewhat.  What are the
bubbles and where are they coming from.  Is this gas trapped in solution
coming out in the run-off flow, maybe they are steam bubbles?  Should there
be any worries?  HSA?  I'm very confident the hose is clamped to the hose
barb on the mash-tun so that air is not being pulled into the hose as the
wort flows through.

TIA,

Fred Warner
warner at ttc.kodak.com



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Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:03:33 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: stuck fermentation smells

I was using a revival recipe of 2#corn meal adjunct with 6# 6-row. 
P;itched with Wyeast American 2035 which had been stepped up a couple
times but in a somewhat stop and start fashion as brew day was
postponed.

It started at 1.044 and stuck at 1.024.  It had a funky smell which I've
only experienced once before when another batch of IPA stuck 3-4 years
ago.  I had taken a bottle of that to a home-brew contest to see if
experience brewers could identify the smell.  No hits.

I added the yeast of a batch of Munich type lager yeast saved from a
previous brew and it fermented to 1.008.  The funky smell survived but
the taste is good pre=bottling.

The smell is not the buttery or sweet-corn or cardboard or others I can
describe, but it is definitely a cousin of the stuck fermentation of
1994.

Has anybody had this experience and a description of the smell? 

jim booth at   kbooth at waverly.k12.mi.us


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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:56:34 -0600
From: "Brian M. Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Re: Soda

In HBD #2430 (May 30, 1997), Michael Aesoph wrote:

> Dear Collective:
>	I am looking for some home made soda recipes using natural ingredients, 
> not kits.  I know I've posted this request before, but didn't get any 
> responses, sorry about the repeat.

Michael,

The last issue of Zymurgy (Summer 1997) has an excellent article on making
sodas.  While the article covers a few options, including commercially
available flavorings, on page 29 it includes a recipe by Polly Goldman of
Alexandria, Va. for a "soda base".  Once you've made this soda base, you
can then add any flavoring you want.  I have personally used it recently
for my Creamsicle Soda, made with natural orange and vanilla flavorings. 
It came out great!  Here's the recipe:

SODA BASE
by Polly Goldman, Alexandria, Virginia
Five Gallons of Soda

Soda Base:
Boil 3 gallons of water
Add:
2 lbs 		Sugar
2 1/2 lbs	Honey (gives the soda more body than just plain sugar)
2 - 4 fl oz	Lemon Juice (the citric acid from the lemon makes the soda less
				cloying)

Add appropriate flavorings, rack to a Cornelius keg, top it up to 5
gallons, carbonate.
Paraphrased from Zymurgy, Vol. 20, No. 2, Summer 1997, pg 29

There are many suggestions in the article for different flavorings
(including Garlic soda) and it makes for excellent reading.  But, I'll let
you play with it.

Keep Brewin'

 -  Brian

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association  (303) 447-0816  x 121   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                              (303) 447-2825   (fax)
PO Box 1679                                 brian at aob.org   (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679                info at aob.org     (aob info)
U.S.A.                                        http://beertown.org  (web)


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Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 10:31:29 EDT
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: 2l Coke bottles

In my experience with 2l coke bottles is 3 to 3 1/2" headspace works
best.  Do not squeeze the bottle after drinking as this will draw out the
CO2.  I have found 1l selter or spring water bottles far superior for
several reasons:
   1) Easier cleaning, don't have to fight that soda smell
   2) If you don't have a Carbonator, you're opening less at a time
   3) Easier storage
   4) bottle is sturdier (same thickness plastic, less to hold)
The headspace for 1L is about 2 1/2".  If you just really like the Coke
label, use the 20 oz or 32 oz size bottle.  All of these work best if you
have a Carbonator, (in which case ,squeeze the bottle) but if you don't,
a 2L opened is almost as bad as an open pitcher put in the fridge.  Hope
this helps.  I'm hooked on plastic when I'm not kegging for several other
reasons:
  A) You don't have to worry about cleaning/bring back empties when you
travel
  B) Less chance of explosion, bottle bombs safer
  C) The Carbonator (NO affiliation Blaa,blaa,blaa, it's just really
cool!)
  D) another reason or two that escapes me at the moment
 This is what works best for me.  Your results may vary.  By the way, I
do have an extensive glass stockpile of at least five sizes and Grolsch
bottles (green and tan).

Beer... "a high and mighty liquor" - Julius Caesar

Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:42:17 -0500
From: shaun.funk at slkp.com
Subject: Fasch Frisch Replacement Dip Tube

I posted a request for information on 5/16 concerning finding a metal=20
replacement=20
dip tube for my Fasch Frisch mini-keg CO2 tapper. No one was able to give m=
e a=20
concrete=20
answer to my question.=20

As I mentioned I had found a metal dip tube for the Party Star de Luxe keg=20
tapper in
the Northern Brewer catalog.  I called them up and they couldn't guarantee=20=
that=20
it would
fit, but they said  if it didn't fit I could send it back. =20

Well It fit.  It was not cheap, but if anyone needs one,  here's the info:=20=
=20
Ultra-Revolutionary=20
Dip Tube, catalog number 7801, $17.50 + S&H.  Northern Brewer's  web site c=
an=20
be found=20
at www.nbrewer.com ( no affiliation, yada, yada , yada) and their catalog i=
s=20
on-line.

Now I have another mini-keg question.  I have used the mini-kegs for 4 batc=
hes=20
and have
yet to acheive consistent and predicable carbonation levels.  I have been u=
sing=20
the=20
recommened 1 tablespoon of priming sugar per keg.  Most ( not all) of my=20
mini-kegged brew=20
has been flat.  Obviously I can try increasing the priming sugar, but rathe=
r=20
than solve this through=20
trial and error I would like to hear from anybody who has had better luck=20
carbonating these=20
things.

Thanks,

Shaun Brews Funk
Clemmons, NC
shaun.funk at slkp.com=01;



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Date-warning: Date header was inserted by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Subject: keg sealing

Laura (Barrowman at aol.com) writes:
>
>As a result of the wonderful draft system my father picked up at a garage
>sale:
>
>I have a couple of cornie kegs that are dented around the top preventing a
>good seal around the oval lid. I have tried scads of keg lube with no luck.
>Does anyone have any advice on how to straighten these out?

congratulations on your find.  You can always buy new lids from 
kegging places (try Braukunst or look in the back of Brewing 
Techniques/Zymurgy).  If a new lid and new Oring and some pliers
don't work, you can always use the kegs as fermenters.

          - Bryan
            grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
            Music City Brewers, Nashville, TN


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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:42:12 -0400
From: "Little, Wayne" <LittleW at od31.nidr.nih.gov>
Subject: FW: Underhopping



I just set up a 5 gallon batch of California Common using 6.6 lb of light 
LME with 1 lb each of crystal and toasted malts steeped in.  After cooling 
in a cold water bath, poured into primary bucket and pitched 1 pt of active 
starter.  Signs of fermentation started in 3-4 hrs.  Problem was in the 
hopping. I was having a mind lapse and threw in one plug of Northern Brewer 
at 60 min., another plug at 15 min., and 1 oz of Cascade pellets at 2 min. 
 The plugs were only 1/2 oz each ( not the 1 oz I had a mind-set on), so I 
have half the amount of Northern Brewer that I intended. It has been 
suggested that I make a hop tea and add at about day 7 after the 
fermentation has died down.  Does this make sense, and if so, any 
suggestions on the best way to do it?  This basic recipe has worked very 
well in the past, but I always used only pellets, and I think a strong NB 
component is essential to balance the malty sweetness of this style. 
 Thanks, and private email is fine.




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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:25:16 +0200
From: "Hubert Hanghofer" <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: Re: Wheat beer / salt additions

In HBD #2431 George De Piro <George_De_Piro at berlex.com> wrote:
> Ing. Hubert (is that right?) and Oliver write in about wheat beers.
[snip]
> The clear versions of Weizens that they mention are a different
> substyle, called Kristal Weizen. These are filtered, and are
> generally lower in body and flavor than their unfiltered kin.

Thanks for adding your truly informative comments, George!
I think however, we have to work on the clarity of our expression, 
because we didn't mean Kristall Weizen, we posted on cloudiness / 
clarity of Hefe Weizen, both homebrew and commercial grades. Hefe 
Weizen in the bottle -or poured into the glass (when leaving yeast 
sediment and cold break behind)- maybe nearly clear (at least by 
homebrewing standards), but cloudiness is acceptable. We thought, we 
should mention this, because it seemed to us, that there could be 
Style Guidelines existing that tell you, it has to be cloudy, 
otherwise it's not to style. We personally feel, backed up by our 
experience, such guidelines should be reconsidered.

- ----------------

In HBD #2431 Brewers Beer Gear <brewers at brewgear.com> wrote:
> traditional German brewing would not advocate adding either salts or
> acid to a brew; an acid rest would be a more style-appropriate practice
> in order to let the lactic acid bacteria naturally present in the malt
> acidify the mash without violating Rheinheitsgebot.

This is the *classic* traditional way, we're recommending, too. But 
classic restrictions ended sometimes ago in the wild 60's. Since 
then, German brewers were allowed to add water salts to adjust water 
chemistry (residual alkalinity, to be more exact). Since then, 
adding salts is no violation anymore. Additions of acids are 
forbidden however! I've found that most breweries use gypsum, but 
also Calcium Chloride. I personally prefer Calcium Chloride, when 
brewing full bodied, but mild Bavarian style beers (Helles Lager, 
Weizen). Gypsum gives a more dry character, which should be more 
appropriate for Northern Germany Style Pilseners.

German Literature (L.Narziss) recommends, not to use more than
0,3 grams Gypsum per Liter of brewing water (that should be 1.14 
grams per US gallon). To avoid confusion, this refers to German style 
beers, of course, not e.g. to Burton Ale! The usage of Chlorides is 
limited by corrosive effects on stainless steels and should be kept 
below 100 ppm Cl. I've tried up to 300 ppm Cl and recorded no salty 
taste, however my kettle showed some of those corrosive effects.

For those of you, who want to know a bit more on that, I think I
needn't waste bandwith here, I've made a simple and short summary in
http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/english/tips.htm

Cheers &
Sehr zum Wohle!
Hubert

Ing. Hubert Hanghofer <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Salzburg, AUSTRIA

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Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 16:43:09 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: CNN online

I'm surprised no one has posted about this yet.  CNN online 
has a bunch of info on homebrewing, featuring our friend,
Charlie P.  Let me propose that you try to hold back on
your flames once you've seen it.

http://cnnplus.cnn.com/consumer/food/beverages/alcohol/homebrew/index.html
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb

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Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 18:26:19 -0700
From: Jason Henning <huskers at cco.net>
Subject: Re: Pondering the imponderable

Bat Pabcock observes UFOs (unforseen fermention obsticles) and 
reports:
>
> Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager....
>
> Today, my friend and I were discussing threads that would not die,
> when I accidentally popped my stopper into the carboy and the
> waiting wort. Undaunted, I plunged...
> [snip] With the stopper buried on the bottom. The ferment was...
> [snip] Or should I remove the stopper first? By the way...
> [snip] But: is my stopper ruined?

I've never had anything like this happen to me but I don't think 
the stoppers ruined. I could give a better opinion if I just had 
some evidence one way or the other. Maybe now would be a good time 
to invert the carboy. You could cut a hole in the bottom (soon to 
be the top) and retrive the stopper. Be sure to make the hole big 
enough to stick your hand in. Has anyone ever tried cutting a hole 
in a carboy?

> Undaunted, I plunged my arm, up to the elbow into the wort before
> I realized that my arm can't fit into the neck. Besides, it wasn't
> sanitized.

Body parts need to be boiled for 15 minutes before introducing them 
into the wort. Once boiled, you can do as much undaunted arm 
plunging as you want.

> Satisfied, I popped my smack-pack, opened it and dumped the yeast 
> in. Fifteen and a half seconds later, I realized that nothing was
> happening. To save the batch...
> [snip] Why was the lag time so long? 

Always used a starter. Boil 1/3 cup water and 4 cups dry malt 
extract (or was that 4 c water and 1/3 c DME) for 15 minutes then 
removing from heat. Smack the slap-pack and added. Then add this to 
carboy after flaming the mouth.

> In the bottom of the fermenter sat 20 inches of yeast cake!
> [snip] Is it safe to pitch my next batch over this yeast cake?

I strongly recommend not pitching a hefe. You can't have your yeast 
cake and drink it too.

> By the way the batch, A Belgian Pumpernickel Hefe-Stouten Scotch 
> Ale, turned out great, though a bit "catty".
> [snip] but I combed a cat's hair backwards, then tossed the cat 
> in to attract any haze compounds.) 

I'd say this is cause-and-effect, add a cat and it's going to be 
'catty'. But I bet it's still awesome. What category would you 
place it in? It sounds like a braggot without the honey.

Cheers,
Jason Henning (huskers at cco.net)
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Olympia, Washington - "It's the shoes"

What? Me worry? - Alfred E. Newman


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Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:26:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: BernardCh at aol.com
Subject: Re-hydrate Irish Moss?

I seem to remember reading recently (but can't remember where) that if irish
moss were added during the last fifteen minutes of the boil, that it should
be re-hydrated first.  Up unitl that time I was just dumping in the powdered
flakes at T=15.

For my last two batches, during the sparge I prepared a mixture of my Irish
moss and about 1 cup H2O and left the moss sit to rehydrate until the T=15
minute mark, when I dumped it into my wort.  After chilling to 75-80F (2
stage immersion, 1st chiller in ice bath) and whirlpooling I've noticed what
appears to be a tremendous difference in the amount of break material left in
the kettle and how little ends up in the carboy.  In the pre-re-hydrate days
it was not unusual to have 3 - 4" inches of "stuff" settle out in the carboy.
 For the last two batches the amount of settled break, yeast etc. was less
than 1.5 inches.

I typically use 1/4 - 1/3 ounce of the flakes in a batch.  Is this amount
underkill, overkill or about right.

I know I've seen improvement here, but why?  What is it about Irish moss that
causes it to "perform" better if Its re-hydrated first?  Anyone?

Chuck
BernardCh at aol.com
Music City Brewers - Nashville, TN - "Music City USA"

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