---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Shipping beer (Torque)
  Re: colloids and zeta potential (Steve Alexander)
  Water, walls, membrane (Steve Alexander)
  Stephen Jordan's kegging question (Randy Ricchi)
  breweries/pubs in england (Robert Parker)
  Have Keg Will Travel ("Mark Nelson")
  Summary-carbonator pumps/dented kegs/dirty disc. (Barrowman)
  trichloromelamine (Barrowman)
  Yeast for a plambic... ("Samuel W. Darko")
  belgian malt trub (BAYEROSPACE)
  I was wrong ! : LPG & CO2 regs (Luke.L.Morris)
  An oxidation question (Brian Pickerill)
  Shipping Beer (Dan Morley)
  Belgian Wheat ("Lee Carpenter")
  Re:  UPS Shipping Beer (Troy Hojel)
  Roggenbier summary ("Audra Macmann")
  bottle time blues singer ("Raymond Estrella")
  what's happening, while I sit. ("Raymond Estrella")
  shippng boxes (kathy)
  1997 Great Canadian Homebrew Competition (Eamonn McKernan)
  Re: Dave Miller weighs in on botulism (Scott Murman)
  Oh where, Oh where can my hops continue to grow? (dbrigham)


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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:21:34 -0700
From: Torque <wieleba at pce.net>
Subject: Re: Shipping beer

If UPS must know what is in you package, tell them "yeast samples",
after all, it wouldn't really be to far from the truth.

Dan
- -- 
http://www.pce.net/wieleba/beerlink.htm

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 03:51:43 +0000
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: colloids and zeta potential

Dave Whitman kindly and quickly responded to my query - tho' I think the
answer or perhaps my question missed the target.

> >I don't understand Dave Whitmans comment on yeast suspension as a
> >colloid nor the concept of the "zeta potential".  Can you explain Dave ?
> 
> Well, this comes from mixing chemistry, brewing, and talking in a public
> forum.

I think it comes from not defining terms unfamiliar to a general
technical audience, such as 'zeta potential'.  Imagine that you are
writing for Scientific American, not Annals of Physical Chemistry. My
other question is really why do you treat yeast in wort as a colloid - I
don't believe that yeast in wort share many properties with classic
colloidal suspensions. 
 ...
Definition Colloid (from the CRC): 
   "A phase dispersed to such a degree that surface forces become an
important factor in determining its properties.
   In general particles of colloidal dimensions are approximately 10
angstrom to 1 micron in size.  ..."

OK, I don't find this definition terribly useful either - but yeast
cells individually run about an order of magnitude above the upper size
limit stated (5 to 15 micron diameter for brewing yeast).  Further, many
yeast varieties will form cell aggregates with even larger dimensions. 
Some other reasons why yeast don't act like a classic colloidal
suspension are:

2/ Yeast, for reasons unknown, do not follow Stoke's Law in their
sedimentation.  Until such a basic discrepancy is adequately explained
any theory is suspect.
3/ Yeast become less flocculant in the presence of mannose and other
sugars.  Some become more flocculant when alcohol levels hit 3% w/v.
Some lager yeasts flocculate in the presence of glutamic and aspartic
amino acids. All require calcium ions to flocculate. All of these
factors are influx during fermentation.
4/ Increase in effective size might seem a likely source of
sedimentation, but according to M&BS, sedimentation of small (5 micron)
yeast cells readily occurs at a depth of 2 meters in 2-4 days. Most
bottom fermenting lager yeasts do not form multicell flocs or chains yet
sediment readily too.
6/ The Burns test for yeast sedimentation (M&BS references JIB #43,
1937) measures cell count near the wort surface over time.  Cell
concentration falls steadily over time, then at a time and concentration
characteristic of the particular yeast, the rate slows.
7/ Growing vs mature yeast cells have different cell surface properties
and so their ability to flocculate may vary widely with growth
conditions.

Obviously there are some great similarities between wort+yeast and
colloidal suspensions, but yeast in wort represents a dynamically
changing system where the wort environment and the yeast cell surface
properties are known to change and interact over time.

 ...
> I've
> always thought of them as colloids, and it has helped me understand a lot
> of yeast behavior during brewing.
Please expand on this. What does it help explain ?

 ...
> Typically, aqueous colloids are stabilized by having a surface charge.
> Like charges repel, so if all the particles carry the same charge, they
> don't want to stick together.  Zeta potential is a measure of the intensity
> of the electric field induced around the particle by this surface charge.
> Large positive or negative zeta potentials give stable particles.  Yeast
> normally has a negative zeta potential.
> 
> Zeta potential is strongly influenced by the ambient pH.  The usual pattern
> is for the zeta potential to become more positive at lower pH.  For many
> particles, there is a magic pH ("the isoelectric point") where the zeta
> potential passes through zero.  At this pH, the particles are very
> unstable, and easily flocculate.

This all makes good sense, and corresponds with the charges on and
isoelectric point definitions for macro-ions such as proteins; however
I've still never seen this referred to as 'zeta potential'. No matter,
now I understand what you are saying.  One aspect that you didn't
mention is that small ions, salts in solution for example, have a
shielding effect on the attraction of charged macromolecules and yeast,
thus improving their colloidal stability and reducing sedimentation.
(Except that calcium ions are required for yeast flocculation - grrr). 
Debye-Huckel theory accounts for this E field distortion at least for
the simple spherically symmetric charge case.

> Milk curdles because souring (i.e. acid
> production) lowers the pH, and drives the negative zeta potential of the
> colloid towards zero.

There's really a bit more to it than net charge and zeta potential tho'.
The common milk protein beta-lactoglobulin has a pK=5.3 (isoelectric
point) so the zeta potential reaches zero at pH=5.3.  The net charge on
the protein may be zero, but that doesn't mean that the molecule doesn't
have regions of relatively higher and lower charge.  These charge
differences make for oddly polar molecule which accumulate and other
intermolecular forces such as Van der Waals force create the clumping
and precipitation of milk protein.

> You can also floculate a colloid by dumping in some particles or a polymer
> with the opposite zeta potential - opposite charges attract, and everything
> sticks together in big blobs. 

Well partly - actually positive particle A and negative particle B come
together forming a more-or-less neutral two particle system - and here
is where the 'blobbing' would stop.  Forming big blobs requires a
further explanation of charge distribution within the macromolecule and
other intermolecular forces for stability.

> Cold break is a floc of two polymers with
> opposite zeta potential (-polyphenol and +proteins). 

Very minor nit - but actually cold break is believed to be mostly a
flocculation of two protein fractions - one with an isoelectric point
around pK=6 and another with pK=3.9. At pH values between 3.9 and 6.0 
the two will attract and flocculate.  Phenols are more involved in the
hot break and especially in haze and cold storage (lager) sedimentation.

> The protein gelatin
> helps floculate yeast because at brewing pH it has a positive zeta
> potential, while yeast has a negative zeta potential.

Check.  But do you have a figure for yeast isoelectric point ??  My
guess is that it must be well below pH=4 - No ??

> In the CO2 toxicity debate, I speculated that dissolved CO2 would drive the
> pH low enough to bring the yeast near it's isoelectric point, and thus
> induce premature floculation.  Someone else pointed out that pH doesn't
> change all that dramatically during fermentation, and so I let this theory
> die, the innocent victim of one too many experiments.  I'm now an advocate
> of the "bubbles induce mixing" theory of CO2 pseudo-toxicity in weakly
> nucleated fermenters. <grin>

>From some graphs in M&BS pH may drop from 5.7 to 4.4 for lagers and 5.2
to 4.0 for ales in the course of fermentation.  Might be enough.  Who
knows - the isoelectric point of yeast may well vary with growth and
wort conditions too.  I personally doubt that any wort which hasn't
passed thru a ~micron filter has so few nucleation sites as to build up
such a hugely excessive supersaturation of CO2. Surely the yeast must
act as nucleation sites eventually.  As someone recently pointed out, we
do use yeast to bottle carbonate and even overcarbonate beer.  How many
atmospheres of CO2 in a bottle fermented champagne, 6  or more ?  OTOH I
haven't any better explanation of Gary Knull's experience except to say
I'd love to see a detailed analysis of his water and wort - especially
the metal ions.

Steve Alexander



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 04:56:14 +0000
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Water, walls, membrane

I wrote ...
> the notion that water freely migrates
>across yeast cell walls is nonsense.  The tough part about being a
>single celled creature is keeping the high concentrations of 'good'
>soluables in, and the water out.

And in an offline discussion Jeremy Bergsman pointed out that I am not
distinguishing cell walls and cell membranes.  Cell walls are permeable
we agree.  Jeremy argues that cell membranes are water (and not salt)
permeable if I understand his POV correctly.  I don't understand why
cells have problems hydrating when placed in a medium which has lower
water activity that distiled water, but still high enough to maintain a
positive osmotic pressure from inside the cell to out.

In other words, placing cells in somewhat concentrated salt or sugar or
other non-toxic solution decreases (but not to zero) the pressure
forcing water into the intracellular space.  If water flows freely why
should this cause hydration problems for cells ? Their growth rates
decline.

Steve Alexander


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:47:14 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Stephen Jordan's kegging question

For an excellent, all in one explanation of everything you need to know to
get into kegging, order a copy of the Summer 1995 issue of Zymurgy (volume
18 No.2).

Read that article and you'll have the confidence you need to start kegging.


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:22:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Parker <parker at parker.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: breweries/pubs in england

Can anyone volunteer advice on brewery tours and pubs in England? It's an
unstructured trip but will include at least London, Oxford, Cambridge,
Southampton. Exceptional brewery tours or otherwise highly recommended
towns (no tourist havens) can be accommodated. Private email is best. 

Thanks...Rob
parker.242 at osu.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:27:10 -0400
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
Subject: Have Keg Will Travel

Thought the brewer-hikers or hiker-brewers out there might find this
interesting.

<From the pages of Backpacker Magazine, May 1997>

Have keg will travel:  Frustrated by dry Southern counties that forced him
to forgo his favorite beverage, 1996 Appalachian Trail thru-hiker Mike
"Brew Hiker" Harper called upon his years of home-brewing experience.  By
the time he reached Virginia, Harper had procured a water bag, airlock,
thermometer, and a gallon-and-a-quarter keg.  Relying on the collective
Whisperlite <stoves> of his fellow hikers, he boiled dry malt extract, add
priming sugar, and strapped the key-encased concoction atop his pack, where
it fermented for several days at a time.  Altogether it weighed 16 pounds. 
"I did have to get rid of some things in order to carry it," Harper said. 
As for the taste, "Everyone seemed to like it, but you know how it is with
thru-hikers."



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:56:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Barrowman at aol.com
Subject: Summary-carbonator pumps/dented kegs/dirty disc.

Sorry so long on the summary... I have been up in MI visiting the 'rents and
drinking Bell's. Thanks to all for the help.

Carbonator pumps are a positive diplacement rotary vane pump. They do not
require suction head, so are primerless. Temperature limit is ~150 F because
the vane is plastic. Suggestions for use: chiller recirc, drawing hot wort
thru chiller, or any transfer operation. Was told if pump works - no rebuild
required. Considered a heavy duty little pump with ability to draw liquids
long distances. Motors and couplings alone well worth the $20. Excellant
tinkering value for rest system too.

The dented kegs will make nice fermenters and a supply of spare parts.
Twisted bungs first rate poodle bombs for the 5 mutts next door. Oh well....

Dirty disconnects can be dismantled and cleaned. There is a slot on the top
that will accept a screwdriver to take them apart. Replacement gaskets can be
found. If too crudded up - more poodle bombs.

Thanks all!

Laura
Charlotte  NC



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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:14:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Barrowman at aol.com
Subject: trichloromelamine

I tried looking this one up in the achives first, but no luck. Does anyone
have any information (or references) about using trichloromelamine for a
sanitizer? Would it have any advantages over iodophor?


Thanks,

Laura
Charlotte  NC

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:00:17 -0500 (EST)
From: "Samuel W. Darko" <sdarko at indiana.edu>
Subject: Yeast for a plambic...

I've been wanting to make a plambic for a long time and just lately I've 
really started reading up on the procedures and the different yeasts and 
bacteria needed.  My question is what's the best way to secure all the 
different microorganism that I need?  I was thinking that maybe, just 
maybe, I could just pour a few bottles of a real geueze in to my wort.  
Would that work?  I could use any advise that you guys (and gals) could 
give me (including extract recipies).  

Personal emails would be great.

TIA

Sam Darko

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Date:     Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:29 -0600
From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Subject:  belgian malt trub

collective homebrew conscience:

rob kienle wrote:

><snip> pretty much the entire bill came from Belgium. There's been much 
>discussion here regarding the 122 vs 135 rest, but a fair amount of concensus
>insofar as that Belgium malts are one of the few that *do* benefit from
>a lower rest. As I said, in a previous batch that used the same malt but
>omitted that rest, I ended up with a pretty huge amount of break
>material in the primary that was *not* present in this batch that used a
>brief 122 rest. In another previous batch that used Durst malt instead
>(no 122 rest) I again ended up with about 20% break material.

> virtually all the fluffier break material (yeah,
>there were two "types" of break: one thick, and one "fluffy" and thin;
>anyone know what that means?) in the two previous batches disappeared
>within 24 hours as fermentation began. 

i have used belgian malts almost exclusively over the past 3 years or so, and
all the comments rob makes above strike a chord with my experiences.  i used to
wonder if i was the only one getting large quantities of trub in the primary,
particularly when infusion mashing.  i normally will get in excess of a gallon
of trub for a 5 gallon batch that doesn't use some sort of protein rest in 
the 120's or low 130's fahrenheit, even with dwc's "pale ale" malt, which 
has more in common with their pils malt in this respect (trub production)
than it does with british pale ale malts.

my rest mash starts at 131 and drops to 122 deg f while i'm decocting.  normally
this process takes nearly 2 hours before the decoction is ready to add back
to the rest mash, but none of my beers using this method 
have suffered from lack of head formation or retention.  i do not let the 
pulled decoction linger in the protein rest range after i get it to the 
stovetop.  it goes straight to 151 - 158, depending on style.   maybe when i
change to different malts my results will be different, but i'm willing to 
use what has succeeded in the past until it fails me.

speaking of changing malts, i would like to use some imported malts other than
dwc this year, but i've moved to southern maryland.  who's got a good source
for bulk malt (i'll probably need ~150 pounds of bulk - 3 sacks) near to 
southern maryland? i'm thinking mostly of durst and/or weyermann, and a good
british pale ale malt.

i have noticed also that decoction mashing will decrease the trub,
particularly if an effort is made to prevent the "protein sludge" at the top 
of the lauter tun from washing into the runoff to the kettle. because of this,
i doubt i will ever try "batch sparging" when decocting, although "Superfly" 
sparging does seem appropriate for malt liquor. 

regarding rob's comment about "fluffy" trub, i have had this also, and i 
always document the "fluffiness" or "fineness" of the trub i observe.  the only
correlation i've drawn is that it seems like the darker the beer and the 
lower the ph of the mash (and thus, wort), the "finer" the trub is.  
i get really fluffy, coarse trub in pale lagers where i'm mashing in .2 to .5 
ph units higher than the darker beers.  it also seems that the finer the trub,
the more problems i have with head retention.  my very dark porters and
stouts have, in the past, poured like coca-cola.  review of my notes always
turns up the phrase "very fine trub in bottom of primary".  

brew hard,

mark bayer
  

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 03:18:52 +0800
From: Luke.L.Morris at woodside.com.au
Subject: I was wrong ! : LPG & CO2 regs

I accept Jason Henning's criticism of my suggestion to use an LPG 
regulator to deliver CO2 (at about atmospheric pressure to a "corny 
keg", allowing a beer engine to be used without needing to draw air 
into the keg's airspace).

You are quite right that I should not be advocating this.  A 
low-pressure CO2 reg is the correct solution.  The difference in price 
will no doubt be only a few dollars.

I maintain that my proposal for a low-pressure regulator delivering 
low-pressure CO2 to the headspace of the "corny keg" would allow the 
beer engine to be used without drawing air into the keg (*see below) 
and without artificially carbonating the beer.

To *accurately* control delivery pressure from the cylinder down to 
almost atmospheric, you will need to use a two-stage regulator  
(dedicated 2-stage regs = $$$ from my experience), or put a 
low-pressure regulator after your existing CO2 reg (as I described, but 
use a reg recommended for CO2, not LPG !).  Generally speaking, the 
single-stage high-pressure reg affixed to your cylinder will not be 
sensitive enough to control pressure down from 1000+ psi to atmospheric 
reliably.  Generally speaking, regs with a bigger circumference are 
more sensitive due to their larger diaphragm area.

>The only saving grace about this
>set-up was the lp regulator was after the co2 regulator.

I did point out that these LPG regs are rated to 250 psi; whereas your 
CO2 cylinder is supplied with over a thousand psi inside it.  To use it 
as a first-stage or single-stage reg would be suicidal.  If you buy a 
low-pressure CO2 reg, check the pressure rating, and ensure you do not 
exceed it.

>> **Another warning***
>> This is not a traditional technique.  Nor is it endorsed by CAMRA, I
>> suspect.

>Hardly. The whole point of real ale is that it breaths the air from the
>publicans celler and takes on a life of it's own. It has to be serve
>before it goes sour. Each celler and each pub has it's own flavor
>impact. CAMRA doesn't allow for any breathing filters or devices.

Granted.

>That's half the problem. Stouts and porter don't sell fast enough to be served
>like this. So it's squeezing these less popular styles out.

And that's the problem I was trying to resolve.  If pubs have trouble 
emptying a keg before the contents spoil, what hope does the average 
homebrewer have ?  Although not traditional or CAMRA-endorsed, 
delivering atmospheric pressure CO2 to the headspace of your "corny 
keg" will allow the average homebrewer to draw "real ale"-style beers 
through a beer-engine without the beer spoiling before the keg is finished.

Happy brewing,

Luke Morris
Breing in Perth, Western Australia.



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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:26:01 -0500
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: An oxidation question

Homebrewers,

Why is it that distilled spirits do not have an oxidation problem?  Why can
you keep vodka and scotch etc... in a bottle in the cabinet for years and
not have the alcohol get oxidized?  Or, does it?  I thought of this after
shaking the vodka bottle that I use for sanitation, airlocks, etc...  What
about wine?  It seems not to be a problem for wine either, but I don't know
(care) much about that.  This is probably a simple question for some of
you, but I can't figure it out.  Isn't it the alcohol that is oxidized in
stale beer?

- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie, IN



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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:12:47 -0600
From: Dan Morley <morleyd at cadvision.com>
Subject: Shipping Beer

Cheers fellow beer lovers!

Here in Canada, shipping beer to competitions presents same kinds of
problems as it does in the USA. Most couriers will not knowingly ship
alcohol! I am fortunate that the office next to mine is a courier company
and that I have had a long standing business & personal relationship with
them. Their policy is not to ship alcohol.....however....they always
knowingly ship my beer for me. They know why I am shipping it and how
carefully it is packed.....and this is okay with them. I asked them about
their "no alcohol" policy and  it is mainly aimed to prevent bootlegging and
the shipment of improperly packed bottles.  When bottles break, it has the
potential to damage many other pieces of freight as well.  This courier
company regularly ships alcohol for a number of different businesses......so
the policy is really that they will ship alcohol for businesses but not for
personal reasons! I expect that this is the same for most courier companies!

For the past 2 years, I have had the honor of shipping some of my beers to
the finals in the NHC. Shipping beer across the border leads to another
problem....Customs! Because customs had the authority to open and search any
parcel they want, I felt it was most advantageous to be honest with the
Courier and the customs paperwork! Due to the fact that it is a personal
shipment, I use the Couriers' Customs Broker to handle my shipment.
Unfortunately, my courier neighbors do not ship to the USA. This led me to
search for a courier that would knowingly ship alcohol. I contacted most of
the big companies and got the same response over and over - NO! I did
however, find 2 companies that have no problem shipping properly packed
alcohol for personal reasons. These companies are Swift Sure Courier and DHL
World Wide Express.  Swift Sure offers 3 levels of service (ground,
expedited ground, and air) and DHL only offers air. (I do not work for
either of these companies and have no affiliation with either of them, I
just like their attitude!)  I would suggest that anyone who needs to ship
beer and is tired of wondering "are they going to find out its beer" look in
their local phone book or yellow pages to see if there is an agent for these
companies in your area. I think that their prices may be a little higher
than UPS, but at least you don't have to lie and worry!

Cheers!

Dan Morley
Calgary, Alberta, Canada


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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:51:18 -0400
From: "Lee Carpenter" <leec at redrose.net>
Subject: Belgian Wheat

Stir Doctors,

I downloaded a Belgian Wheat recipe from somewhere, and now I can't
relocate it. My problem is that the recipe calls for putting Wyeast 3278 in
the secondary for 2-3 weeks(Brettanomyces bruxellensis). I've never used a
secondary yeast before and am not in possession of the recipe's
instructions. Should I just rack it and pitch like it was the primary?
Thanks in advance.

Lee

"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline--it
helps if you have some kind of football team, or some nuclear weapons,
but at the very least you need a beer."
                                       -- Frank Zappa


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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:31:32 -0700
From: Troy Hojel <hojel at flash.net>
Subject: Re:  UPS Shipping Beer

Dave wrote:

Hummm....if it's illegal for UPS to ship beer as some of their agents
have stated, then I wonder why they're quite willing to ship the Beer of

the Month cases that I've received?  They don't seem to have a moral or
legal delima in taking their money and shipping it to my home where kids

can get to the packages left on the porch.    George DePiro was well
right in suggesting the correct approach is be careful in mailing
addresses for competitions that denote that beer, glass and alcohol are
involved then lie.

- -----------

I haven't been following the thread on UPS shipping, but I recently read
(or watched) and article on how the the Beer of the Month Club does
business.  Not that this is the answer to why they can ship via UPS, but
maybe it's a clue.

Apparently, all Beer of the Month cases are shipped from a distributor
in the state of the address they are being shipped to (Intra-state v.
Inter-state shipping?).  In other words, they have agreements with local
distributors to ship the beer.  The beer never crosses state lines (once
it leaves the distributors paws).  I hope this helps!

Troy



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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 97 22:25:02 PDT
From: "Audra Macmann" <kestrel at full-moon.com>
Subject: Roggenbier summary

I posted a question about an all-grain roggenbier recipe that my husband
was working out (btw we finally cracked our first batch, a weizenbier, =
and
it's BEER! Cool! Better with lemon though...) and here is a summary of =
the
help we received.

>>I believe you are correct about too much rye in that recipe.  I would
try maybe one pound or so.  Rye can be overpowering.  You'll probably
get better input from experts (I'm not one) but I think most will agree
to cut back on the rye. <<

(The original idea was 4 lbs of reg malt, 3 each of wheat and rye, and
2 oz of Hallertauer hops, 1 oz added at the start and 1 oz after 45 min.)

>>I would also recommend that you increase the amount of hops.  An ounce
of Tettnanger hops for bittering will probably leave the beer too sweet.
I'd shoot for roughly 8-10 HBUs of bittering hops, which for Tettnangers
will be 2 ounces if the Alpha Acid % is about 4.5; 3 ounces if 3.0 or
below, and split the difference if between 3.0 and 4.5.<<

>>Don't know if you checked Michael Jackson's Beer Companion for data, =
but there
is some good information - Schierlinger Roggen, the most commonly availab=
le
Roggenbier in the US, is about 60% rye malt, with about 20% each of pale =
and
crystal malts.  He does briefly describe the special lautering system req=
uired
due to the problems associatied with rye, i.e stuck mashes.  I think it =
is more
common to use around 10 to 15 percent rye in a homebrewing environment. =
 I think
the recipe you mention sounds delicious, but you'll want to lauter slowly=
 and
carefully.  Might not be your best choice for a first all grain batch - =
when I
had a stuck mash on my first (not all that long ago), it nearly put me =
off the
whole process.  Luckily the beer was good.<<

>>Hi,
Anecdotally, I can tell you that a customer of mine recently brewed with
2-3# of rye malt and said that the rye taste was a bit too strong.

Charlie Papazian in his "Companion" book has a recipe for rye beer that
cals for 2# of rye. He claims it is smooth and crisp. I have not tried =
it.

It seems that the amount of wheat and rye in proportion to the pilsner =
malt
in your recipe would certainly slow down the lautering process because =
of
the high level of gums (beta glucans) and lowered amount of filtering med=
ia
(grain husks are only available from the pils malt, not from wheat or rye=
).

I don't know how the Germans do it, but I would guess they use 50%
rye/wheat combined, and you could throw in some brewer's cut "Oat Hulls" =
to
aid in the lautering. They provide a husk material for runoff. Personally=
,
I wouldn't exceed 2# rye in 5 gallons of beer. 3068 is a good choice for =
an
authentic wheat beer. Has some bubbegum and clove to it, though. Hope you
like that. If you want more neutral yeast, use #3333 or #3056.<<

You guys are great!

Audra Macmann, Ohio
asmac at concentric.net or kestrel at full-moon.com
ICQ UIN 1674976

Watch the Sailor Moon animated series weekday mornings on the
USA network at 8:30AM. :) She's back!!!!


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Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 03:44:07 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at msn.com>
Subject: bottle time blues singer

 Hello to all,
Stephen Jordan says,
>I hope I don't get slammed for this but here goes...
>I'm really getting tired of spending three hours bottling my beer and have
>been thinking about taken the plunge into kegging. My problem is I know
>very little about it, expence what type of equipment and how long does the
>beer stay fresh once it's kegged?

  I don't know why anyone would slam you for not wanting to go through the
drudgery of bottling, unless they are hard-core S&M fans. (No, not Saisons
and Maibocks)
  Miller's Homebrewing Guide has a good section on kegging, and Zymurgy
had a very good article a couple of years ago, check the back issues.
(At least a year before the " I'm-a-3-batch-a-year-extract-brewing-rock-
star-look-I-have-my-own-special Issue.)
  Check out your local welding supply stores. You can usually get a 5 pound
CO2 bottle for around $60 (US) and they will refund it back to you if you
turn it back in, or will credit it for a jump up to a larger size. (Believe 
me, it 
will happen. I have 2, 20 pounders and a 20 cu. ft. Oxygen and think about 
more.) You can some times find rebuilt regulators also, but I would recommend
getting a new one. They can be found pretty cheap mail order. Get a dual 
gauge model.
  There are a lot of used kegs on the market. Check with your local homebrew 
shop first, then look at the ads in the brew rags.
  As far as freshness goes, it is relative to the storage conditions. I have 
never
had a problem with kegged beer getting old. When it is sitting there, cold and 

available, tap beckoning, I find that it does not make it to it's 
Best-when-used-by
date. It is more like my wife saying, "I thought you were going to save some 
of that
for the next homebrew club meeting/competition" It is my opinion that kegged 
beer
tastes better than bottled. I only wish that I could pull a fresh one for the 
judges at 
competition time.
  Before I get slammed, I will say that I do CPF big beers (Strong Scotch 
Ales,
Imperial Stouts, Barleywines) after conditioning in kegs, for long term 
storage.
And use old fashioned bottling techniques (with yeast added) for Belgian 
Trippels.


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Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 04:06:11 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at msn.com>
Subject: what's happening, while I sit.

 Hello to all,
Well after 21 years in the trades I finally have sustained a work lossage
injury. I messed up my neck pretty good. The problem I have (brewing
related) is that I dropped a Barleywine down to 35f in anticipation of 
kegging it for conditioning/ageing and can not lift it now. As it crash 
cooled it picked up oxygen into the headspace of the carboy, reversing 
through the airlock. Can I let it sit in my brew 'fridge for a couple of weeks
without worrying, (who me worry......right) or should I pop the airlock off
and give it a shot of CO2, and let it sit until I can manage to keg it?
Thanks in advance,

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

    *******Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew.*******


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Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:02:15 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: shippng boxes

Three of us locals share a beer of the month membership.  I took my old
shipping cartons to the homebrew store for them to sell or give to
homebrewers wishing to ship beer.

The first time I shipped beer in my own carton 5 of 6 bottles were
crushed and the AHA outpost rejected the shipment.

Lets reuse those boxes.  cheers...jim booth, ceo of boo-the-bum brewing
co., lansing, mi



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Date: 	Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:20:48 -0400
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: 1997 Great Canadian Homebrew Competition

Here's something from the Canadian Amateur Brewer's Association's 
competitions people...
	Cheers,
	Eamonn McKernan 
	CABA Secretary
	
This year's competition was the second landmark for CABA in consecutive 
years. Although that is poor English - what I mean is that the first 
landmark was last year, when we had our first out-of-Ontario GCHComp, in 
Edmonton, which was a big success. This year, we had our first drop-offs 
in Calgary and Halifax, and were helped by local sponsors (Wine Mine in 
Calgary, and The Brew Guys in Halifax-Dartmouth), who shipped entries to 
our central sponsor, Upper Canada, who also received Ontario drop-offs 
and were very helpful in providing the judging site. This worked well, 
and next year we intend to negotiate this sort of deal with some other 
provinces. We're always looking for more regional sponsors.

Now, this year wasn't all success, as we had our lowest entry numbers 
(99) since I have been involved in competitions. Why?? Who knows? We are 
seeing a steady decline in entries from Ontario which seems proportional 
to the number of homebrewrs going commercial. All I can say is that it 
was the most 'National' competition ever, in terms of the wide range of 
entries from across this fair land of ours.

Now, results!

Class 1 - Canadian Beers	
Gold, with a Canadian Ale called "Spring Ale", Gord Nevery from 
Missisauga, Ont. 
Silver, with a Canadian Lager called "Saazy Summer Lager", Ray Krick from 
CAMRA Ottawa, Ont. 
Bronze, with a Canadian Lager called "North American Premium Lager", Ian 
Crook from Delta, BC. 

Class 2 - Continental Pilsners
Gold, with a German Lager called "Rhineland Pilsner", Peter Mullowney of 
Scarborough, Ont., from the Beerded Brewers. 
Silver, with a Czech Pils, Adam Mueller of Halifax, NS, from the Brewnosers. 
Bronze, with a German Lager called "Dorty Worty", Joanne Anderson of the 
Collingwood Brew Club. 
Best Novice, with a Continental Lager called "Rob's Brew", Robert Beletic 
from Kitchener, Ont. 

Class 3/4 - German Regional Specialty Dark Lagers collapsed with German 
Regional Specialty Ales  
Gold, with a Munich Dunkel, Ian Crook.
Silver, with a Vienna called "Very Old Vienna Lager", Walter Scott of 
Dundas, Ont., from teh Burlington Brew Crew. 
Bronze, with a Vienna called "R. King's Vienna", Peter Mullowney.

Class 5 - Bock
Gold, with a Helles Bock called "Hoppy Bock", Bill George from Toronto, Ont.
Silver, with a Traditional Bock, Sean King of Dartmouth, NS, from the 
Brewnosers. 
Bronze, with a Traditional Bock called "I'll Be Bock", Martin Sewell from 
Toronto, Ont, from the Eastenders. 

Class 6 - Wheat Beers
Gold, with a Wit Beer called "Mississippi Wit", Dwight Barkley of Nepean< 
ont, from teh Mississippi Brewers. 
Silver, with a Weizen, Bill George.
Bronze, with a Weizenbock called "St. Robert's Dunkel Weizenbock", Lorne 
Romano, of Rexdael, Ont., from CABAL. 
Best Novice, with a Wit called "Tangerine Dream", John Tyler of Toronto, Ont.

Class 7 - Pale Ales
Gold, with an English Pale Ale called "Paleface", Ross Reynolds from 
Peterborough, Ont. 
Silver, with an English Pale Ale called "Balmy Pale Ale", John Tyler.
Bronze, with an IPA called "Fool's Ale", Dennis Barsalo from Dorval, Que.
Best Novice, John Tyler.

Class 8 - English Bitter
Gold, with an ESB called "Hide's Pride Bitter", Ian Mclaren of Edmonton, 
AB, from the Edmonton Homebrewer's Guild. 
Silver, with an ESB called "Slate Brewery ESB", Jeffrey Pinhey of 
Halifax, NS, from the Brewnosers. 
Bronze, with an Ordinary Bitter called "You Bitter You Bitter You Bet", 
Walter Scott. 

Class 9 - Brown Ale
Gold, with a North American Brown called "North Bendale Brown", Ian 
Johnson of Scarbourough, Ont. 
Silver, with an English Brown called "Elbro Nerkte Plus", Joanne Anderson.
Bronze, with a North American Brown called "Loyalist Brown Ale", Ray Krick.

Class 10 - Stout
Gold, with an Oatmeal Stout, Robert Jones of Toronto, Ont.
Silver, with a Dry Stout called "Dreams of Dublin", Adam Mueller.
Bronze, with an Oatmeal Stout called "Mississippi Stout", Dwight Barkley.
Best Novice, with a Dry Stout called "Pink Nose Stout", Dennis Barsalo.

Class 11 - UK Strong Ales
Gold, with a Barley Wine called "Montecristo Barley Wine", Lorne Romano.
Silver, with a Barley Wine called "Bedson's Barley Wine", Ian MacLaren.
Bronze, with an Old Ale called "Old Particular", Martine Sewell.
Best Novice, with an Old Ale called "Witches Brew", John Tyler.

Class 12 - Belgian Specialty
Gold, with a Lambic Kriek, Robert Jones.
Silver, with a Raspberry Kriek called "Raspberry Rapture", Martin Sewell.
Bronze, with a Belgian Strong Ale, Sean King and Stephen Haynes of 
Dartmouth, NS, from the Brewnosers. 

Class 13/14 - Fruit Beers collapsed with Specialty Beers
Gold, with a Fruit beer called "Raspberry Wheat", Joanne Anderson.
Silver, with a Fruit beer called "Raspberry Rave", Ross Reynolds.
Bronze, with a Fruit beer called "Brunet Framboise", Lorne Romano.

Class 15/16 - Brew On Premise Ales collapsed with Brew On Premise (BOP) Lagers
Gold, with a Brown Ale called "Brown Cow", Si Cow of Scarborough, Ont.
Silver, with an IPA called "Aqua Rama", John Fournier of Toronto, Ont.
Bronze, with a North American Brown called "Irish Bitter", John Pellet of 
Toronto, Ont. 
Best Novice, with an IPA called "Canadiandia", John Emeny of London, Ont.

Class 17 - Lookalike - UPPER CANADA WHEAT 
Gold, Robert MacIntosh of Pickering, Ont., from the Eastenders

Best Club
CABAL, in a tie with Brewnosers (decided by most Gold medals).

And finally, drum roll please.................

BEST OF SHOW
Gold - Bill George with his Helles Bock!! Congratulations Bill!
Silver - Lorne Romano with his Barley Wine.
Bronze - Robert Jones with his Oatmeal Stout.
Congratulations to all, and a big thanx to our sponsors, to our BJCP 
judges, and to my co-organizers, Dennis Kinvig and Richard Oluszak.  Hope 
to see you all in our next CABA Competition, "ALL ABOUT ALES", scheduled 
this Fall. Check out our soon to be appearing Webpage and future CABA 
Times issues for more details.    

Craig Pinhey =8)

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Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 16:13:07 -0700
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Dave Miller weighs in on botulism 


I agree with Jeremy that Dave Miller's response shows he doesn't
really understand the issue.

> "A. Thank you for an intriguing and important question. I spoke with Dr. Joe
> Power of the Siebel Institute of Technology (Chicago) about this one. The
> standard brewing microbiology texts contain  no specific reference to
> botulism growth in wort, so he could not  rule out the possibility that
> botulism spores might survive and grow in canned wort.

Fine, Dave doesn't know the answer and neither does an expert in the
field.  However, instead of leaving it at that, Dave decides to waffle
on...

> "I would also point out that if bugs start to grow in wort or any other
> growth medium they show signs of their activity -- clouding of the wort,
> bubbles on the surface, and strange odors, for example. Obviously, if a jar
> of wort shows any of these symptoms it should not be used. Botulism is
> usually associated with home canned vegetables and low-acid fruits, and one
> could understand how the appearance of microbial activity could be missed in
> a jar full of tomatoes or green beans, but in jars of clear wort, the signs
> should be much easier to read. 

Every account I've read states that botulism is colorless, odorless,
and tasteless.  It is also doubtful that botulism sporolation could
produce enough CO2 to raise a steel canning lid.  The effects Dave is
describing are associated with bacteria spoilage; a much different
beast from botulism.

> "I used sterile canned wort, made up exactly as described  in the Complete
> Handbook (4), for about six years -- from the time I started using liquid
> yeast cultures until I got into commercial brewing. I never had a bit of
> trouble; I never saw even the slightest hint that  anything was alive in
> those jars -- including some jars that were as much as two years
> old.

This is exactly the kind of anecdotal advice we don't need.  The
literature is full of little old ladies who had no problems for 50
years, and then one day became a statistic after tasting their canned
beets.  What about the brewer in Colorado whose water boils at 190F?

Hopefully the editors at BT will realize that Dave's response does
nothing to answer the concerns, and coming from a "big name" could
cause more harm than good, and take the appropriate action.  Dave
Miller and Charlie Papazian have done a lot of good for the
homebrewing hobby, and beer in general, but this is something that
needs to be addressed by experts in a lab.

SM


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Date: Sat, 28 Jun 97 19:38:33 EST
From: dbrigham at nsf.gov
Subject: Oh where, Oh where can my hops continue to grow?

        I have two fairly healthy hop plants growing up some twine 
        strung from the peak of my garage roof.  I have the twine run up 
        and over small pulleys and then back down to the small flower 
        garden where the hop vines (and my roses) are - the idea being 
        that when the hops are ready to be harvested I can lower the 
        string down gently through the pulley and lower the vine to the 
        ground.  Well - the height of these pulleys is about 15 feet 
        from the ground, and both my hop vines have reached the pulleys 
        and show no sign of stopping!!!  I guess I should have expected 
        that - but what to do?  Where can they continue to grow?  I 
        don't have the luxury of being able to construct any kind of 
        frame/poles with more suspended string - the homeowner rules in 
        my area will definitely not allow it.
        
        The roof of the garage is a possibility maybe, but it is made up 
        of black shingles and I bet that would cook the vines....
        
        Any ideas?
        
        Thanx!!!
        
        Dana Brigham
        National Science Foundation
        dbrigham at nsf.gov


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---