---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Kidney Stones and Beer ("John Penn")
  Re: Strawberry Beer ("Robert L. Seiple, Sr.")
  Isinglass vs Polyclar ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  Response (Ray Kruse)
  100+ IBU IPA's ("Nathan L. Kanous II")
  No wish to assassinate Foreign Stout ("Dave Draper")
  Filtration 101 ("Richard Cuff")
  MICROS SUE A-B ("Don Van Valkenburg")
  OLD BEER ("Narvaez, Ronald")
  re:100 IBU IPA's (Dan Morley)
  No Carbonation,kidney stones, ("David R. Burley")
  Short-n-Sweet: can of lite for yeast washing? (DAVE BRADLEY IC742 6-7932)
  Re: Extract IPA ( Mathew Arnold) & Flying Brews (Michael Frank) (Alpinessj)
  Chocolate and partial boil; aeration (Samuel Mize)
  Kidneys; BOTULISM!  BATF!  AOB MALFEASANCE! (Samuel Mize)
  bottle size vs carbonation, hopbacks (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
  RE: Malta as starter (George De Piro)
  I stand (at least partially) corrected (Steve Jackson)
  Specific Gravity of Stuff (Brian S Kuhl)
  Re: Extract IPA Ideas ("Kris Jacobs")
  Bow down to thine IPA! ("Kris Jacobs")
  Re: 100 IBU IPA's (Martin Wilde)
  Protein rest at 122F not a good choice ("Rich, Charles")
  Bottling a Six-Pack Before Kegging (Greg_T._Smith)
  A/B American Hop Ale?!? ("Mark Rose")
  Pressure cooking first runnings ("Rich, Charles")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 13 Aug 1997 09:18:07 -0400
From: "John Penn" <john_penn at spacemail.jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Kidney Stones and Beer

                       Subject:                               Time:8:54 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Kidney Stones and Beer                 Date:8/13/97

Bob writes about kidney stones and avoiding beer--
   I think the advice about drinking beer is because you can become dehydrated
from the beer.  As with most things, moderation of anything is generally not a
bad thing.  Unless you drink lots of beer or are very susceptible to kidney
stones I wouldn't worry too much.  The best advice for kidney stones is drink
lots of water!!!  I had one about ten years ago and now I drink lots of water
and haven't had one since.  One doctor gave lots of advice about avoiding
calcium, and oxalates in my diet while another doctor gave a more moderate and
reasonable opinion and said calcium is good for you don't worry about
milk--it's already in liquid form--just watch out for cheese and limit the
oxalates. Think of cheese as concentrated calcium!  I do try to watch how much
cheese I eat but I still have a fair amount of cheese.  I do drink a lot of
fluid and usually have 2-3 glasses of water with each meal.  So personally I
wouldn't worry too much about the beer thing, I bet another doctor might be
less conservative but if you drink several beers, make sure you drink some
water too to avoid getting dehydrated.   I'm not a doctor so I'm sure there
will be disagreements with my opinion but it works for me.  There's a lot of
varied opinions out there so sort through and find a comfortable middle ground
that fits your tastes.
   John Penn


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:41:47 -0500
From: "Robert L. Seiple, Sr." <seiplesr at ziplink.net>
Subject: Re: Strawberry Beer

In HBD #2449, I requested information and assistance in brewing with
strawberries.  I would like to take a few lines and thank those that
responded (private mail is on the way).

Thanks to:

Rene - for providing a research location . . .

Dennis - for recommending low hops, use of honey, and mead tips . . .

Curt - a great many tips, and if for nothing else, the "chore boy" tip .
 . .

John - for yeast starter tips, berries in the secondary, and no John, no
one suggested going to the back issues . . .

Eugene - freezing the berries first, using liquid yeast, and using Irish
Moss . . .

Chas - amount of fruit and only putting the fruit in the secondary . . . 

 . . . and last, but, of course not least . . .

Rev. Ed - for, amoung othere things, reminding me that there is no such
thing as a "wrong ingredient" in homebrewing (I think he was trying to
tell me to relax, not worry, and just do it).

Putting it all together (read - using what I wanted and discarding the
rest) I think it will turn out to be a SuperBrew.  I will toast you all
individually and collectively with every bottle.

Thanks all!

Bob Seiple

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:45:21 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: Isinglass vs Polyclar

Hello HBD'ers

Just wondering if I could get some input in regards to the use of
isinglass versus polyclar as a fining/clarifying agent. I just
recently kegged 2 separate batches and used both as kind of test
models. I used liquid isinglass (2 oz) in a German Lager and used
polyclar powder (1 pack/approx 1 tbls) in a IPA. I read up on both
of these agents in a number of reference books prior. According to
Greg Noonan's New Lager Brewing I understood isinglass to be somewhat
better in lager style beers, thus the choice in the above said keggings.

Anyone have anything to add??

Thanks,

Marc 

- -- 
- --------------------------------------------------
Capt. Marc D. Battreall
batman at reefnet.com

The reason a dog has so many friends
is because he wags his tail, not his tongue!


             \\|// 
             (o o)
=========oOO==(_)==OOo===========

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:42:12 -0400
From: Ray Kruse <kruse2 at flash.net>
Subject: Response

Dave Burley writes:

> Eugene Sonn asks how to measure out his

>  hop extract in pounds when he doesn't have a scale.

> 

> First idea is to make your own scale (balance).

>  Use a flat board on a fulcrum ( a pencil taped on,

>  for example)  on which you can place bowls at

>  either end. Put a bowl with 16 ounces ( 2 cups)

>  of water on one end and a similar weight bowl

>  on the other.  Pour in warm hop extract into the

>  bowl at the other end until the board balances.

>   Measure the volume with a measuring cup.

Sorry, Dave, but what you have here is 1 pint, not 1 pound.  Common
mistake in the English measurement system.

Why not just use an empty 3.3# can to measure the extract?  Seems like
as good a measuring cup as any.

Ray Kruse
Glen Burnie, PRMD

Sign in a pub in Bethlehem, PA

"Men-No Shirt No Service"
"Women-No Shirt Free Beer"

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:50:17 -0400
From: "Nathan L. Kanous II" <nkanous at tir.com>
Subject: 100+ IBU IPA's

Matt Gadow comments on Dave Brockinton's Sister Star of the Sun IPA.  He
mentions that by standard calculations this IPA has >100 IBU's.  My
understanding is that the more hops used in producing an idividual beer
(total ounces of hops) the lower the efficiency of alpha acid
isomerization.  I haven't seen any formulas to account for this "loss of
efficiency".  I can say, however, that this occurs.  I have had a
difficult time achieving the level of bitterness that I want in my
IPA's, APA's, EPA's, because I use A TON of hops when I produce them.  I
have also spoken privately with other homebrewer's discussing recipe's
for various emulations of these styles.  One thing that is constant
among the recipies I've seen is that when you hop the hell out of these
beers, it takes substantially more kettle hops to achieve the bitterness
level I am attempting to achieve.  I think that Dave is right on.  I
have made what I consider to be a very respectable ESB that by
calculations is way off the scale on bitterness.  However, because I
used so many finishing hops (certainly too much for style, but I like
it)the overall bitterness perception is more subdued.  I will be making
an IPA when the basement decides to cool down (or I get that third
freezer given to me, the first two broke during transport) and I will
use 3 ounces of high alpha hops for bitterness.  I think it will be just
what I'm looking for.

Speaking of high alpha hops, I've seen and used (a little) some Yakima
Magnum hops.  These hops have an alpha rating of 14%.  I can't find any
information about them.  Previous posts have gotten no responses. 
Anybody know anything about the lineage of these hops?  Anything about
the other components of these hops (beta acids, cohumulone, humulone,
etc.)?

Thanks.  Hope this helps. 

nathan in frankenmuth, MI

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:10:32 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: No wish to assassinate Foreign Stout

Dear Friends,

My recent post asking for commentary on the features of the Foreign
Stout style has generated, both in these pages and offline, comments
that I wish to "kill the style", to do away with it.  I'd just like
to say that this is not true, and I regret that this impression came
across.  I tried to use qualifiers (e.g. "...my *opinion*..."), but
these were obviously insufficient.

Fortunately, my post also generated very useful feedback that
pointed out at least one characteristic that is unique to the style,
namely a gravity that is higher than typical dry and sweet stouts
but lower than typical imperial stouts.  Let me make it plain lest I
be misconstrued again: I do not now claim that is the *only*
distincitive feature of foreign stout.  But it is definitely enough 
to answer my question about the ways in which foreign stout differs 
from its cousins, and I do not for an instant suggest that it be 
retired as a style (and besides, who would listen if I did???).

Thanks to all the respondents.

Cheers,

Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
I can't be bought for a mere $3.50. ---Jeff Renner


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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:56:53 -0400
From: "Richard Cuff" <rdcuff at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Filtration 101

Having worked for a filtration company a while back, I can share a
bit of relevant background here.  Our company has worked with
microbrewers in the USA and also some of the largest Japanese
brewers.

As others have mentioned, too fine a filtration efficiency will
effectively filter out flavor components in addition to the
particulates you're looking for.  Finer isn't necessarily better.

Comparing micron ratings from different manufacturers can be iffy, as
there is no standard in the filtration business for rating
efficiency.  Most wound filters are rated for "nominal" filtration,
meaning they'll keep out 90% of particles at the specified rating (or
larger).  In contrast, membrane filters are often "absolute" rated,
meaning they'll keep out 99% of particles at the size in question. 
These definitions of "nominal" and "absolute" aren't cast in stone.

This normally means a wound filter rated at "1 micron nominal" may be
"5 microns absolute" or similar.

Also remember that a filter gets more efficient as it's used, as a
filter cake builds up on the cartridge.  The cake actually winds up
doing much of the filtering.

Richard Cuff
Lutherville, MD
rdcuff at usa.net

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 14:36:56 UT
From: "Don Van Valkenburg" <DONVANV at msn.com>
Subject: MICROS SUE A-B

Incase you all didn't see this - - From Real Beer Page: 
CALIFORNIA MICROS SUE A-B=20
El Toro Brewing Company has filed a Class Action lawsuit against=20
Anheuser-Busch, claiming that El Toro and many other small=20
breweries were unfairly terminated from distribution agreements=20
through actions by A-B, actions which they allege violate the=20
Sherman Act and Clayton Act. The suit charges that "With the intent=20
to and with the effect of reducing interbrand competition in the craft=20
brew market and eliminating competition from craft brewers in the=20
overall market, Anheuser-Busch had exercised its market power to=20
significantly change a pattern of distribution which had originated in=20
a competitive market and which had persisted for several years."=20
The suit was filed in U.S. District Court for Northern California by=20
Corey, Luziach, Manos & Pliska, LL  of Millbrae, CA. The lead attorney=20
is Dario de Ghetaldi. A similar suit was filed by St. Stan's Brewery,=20
Modesto, CA.=20


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:34:00 -0600
From: "Narvaez, Ronald" <RNARVAEZ at phs.org>
Subject: OLD BEER


Recently I was cleaning up my brew cellar and came across a batch of a   
IPA that has to
be at least 5 or 6 month old. It is in a secondary fermentor (glass   
carboy) and didn't have
any film or growth on top. I have taken a sample of the beer and it   
tasted great, no off
flavors. I figure that all the yeast that was ever alive has all but died   
off  or settled to the
bottom. (this is the clearest beer I have ever brewed).
My question is can I still bottle this beer? What do I need to do to get   
a good carb. in the
bottles? If I add more yeast will it effect the flavor? I would hate to   
waste a whole 5
gallons of beer.

Thanks in advance for any assistance given.
Ronald Narvaez
rnarvaez at phs.org
rnarvaez at rt66.com   

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:51:50 -0600
From: Dan Morley <morleyd at cadvision.com>
Subject: re:100 IBU IPA's

I too saw this recipe last year and decided to give it a try. However, when
I calculated the total IBU's to be around 125, I thought *no way*, that
would be way TOO bitter! So I cut back the bitterness to 75 IBU's. I used
all English malts and Hops, the SG was 1.063 and the FG was 1.016. I cut
back on the bittering hops but left the flavor and aroma hops at a total of
4 ounces. I Burtonized my water, which I thought was supposed to accentuate
the bitternes.
I was pleased with the results, although it was not nearly as bitter as I
had anticipated. I entered this beer in 2 different competitions and in both
I received comments that it should be more bitter to be an IPA!!?? Go
figure! I think that bitternes perception must not be linear. Next time I
will definitely go for the 125 IBU's!

Cheers,

Dan Morley


>I couldn't back away from-
>3 oz. of Chinook Hops for bittering, plus 4 more oz. EKG / Fuggle for
>flavor & aroma!
>This generates about 125 IBU by Tinseth's method of calculation,
>although the IPA style guidelines are 40-60, I believe, unless there is
>an adjustment factor for the proximity to the hop growing region that
>I'm not factoring in... :-)
>Has anyone tried this recipe? -


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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:25:22 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: No Carbonation,kidney stones,

Brewsters,

Tim Steffens asks what to do about no carbonation even when he has
carbonated with a priming sugar starter.  I assume you let the yeast
pitched to that starter come to full "kraeusen" before bottling. I always=

add a tablespoon or so of malt extract as an energizer and provider of
nitrogen to this priming starter before I add the yeast and allow it to g=
et
fermenting in about 12 hours.

Also, store the bottles *off*  the (especially concrete)  floor -
especially with ale yeasts, for a week or so after capping - at around 70=
F
or a little higher.

Another trick is to use a bottle of beer, with sugar and extract added as=

the starter medium. This guarantees you that the yeast are acclimated to
your beer before you ever add the priming to the batch.  Make a thick syr=
up
of the sugar and malt extract by boiling it to disinfect it, cool , then
dilute it with your beer and pitch the yeast. Allow it to kraeusen in abo=
ut
12 hours before you prime your beer. =

- ----------------------------------------------
Bob of Fruit Fly Brewery, recovering from kidney stone surgery,  is
concerned about the impact of recommended NIH documents to reduce beer
intake ( while increasing fluid intake) despite the fact ( he reasons) th=
at
the water in his beer is about the same hardness as some others worldwide=
=2E =


I don't think it is the calcium in the water  ( did they cut you off milk=
?)
, but the fact that the kidney stone is also made up of fatty, cholestrer=
ol
type goodies which MAY result from a screwed up liver metabolism (brought=

on in some cases - probably not yours) by drinking to excess. This is jus=
t
my attempt to rationalize a statement by a supposedly respected medical
body without any data either way as I am NOT a medical doctor.  How about=

low calcium lagers - are they OK?

When I lived in the UK three decades ago, beer was one of TREATMENTS for
kidney stones.

Most of the medicine bottles I get say "Do Not Drink Alcoholic Beverages
When Taking This Medicine", so I take the pills with water {8^).  I do th=
is
because when I asked the pharmacist ( who know a LOT more about drug
interactions,etc than most doctors) on more than one occasion what would
happen if I continued to drink moderately his comment was "Uh Bu Bu Bu I
don't know." or "Uh it will, maybe, upset your stomach?". No information =
as
to WHY the recommendation existed.  When I went to the drug manufacturers=

hotline I got a longer, but also uninformative answer with no scientific
data to back it up.  My general opinion is that it is easier to give this=

warning for those few who really overindulge in alcoholic beverages ( and=

are unhealthy as a result  and for whom the warning will likely not make
any difference anyway!)  than to not do so. IMHO it is a pure CYA in many=

cases.  YMMV!!!!!

While I do not recommend such a cavalier attitude in others, if I were yo=
u,
I would ask your pharmacist,  doctor and local NIH representative to
provide you with some documents that support this claim so you can make u=
p
your own mind.  You may be happily surprised.

If anyone can shed some real SCIENTIFIC light on this I would appreciate =
it
,since I would like to know more and can only share my uninformed opinion=

here.
- ---------------------------------------------------  =

Randy Ricchi believes he has an infected keg that is giving him an infect=
ed
brew.  Based what sounds to be an extensive cleaning schedule.  I doubt i=
f
that is the problem. However, try a strong laundry bleach solution (do NO=
T
soak the cornie or you will get etching and weakening of the SS wall), ju=
st
rinse it, push the hot bleach solution out with CO2 and rinse immediately=

with very hot water several times.  Wear gloves, glasses and a shirt and
pants you can get "brewer's spots" on.

More than likely your infection source is somewhere else.  If you are
reusing your yeast, wash it in a 1% Tartaric Acid (your HB store) and 50p=
pm
metabisulfite solution.  Rinse it with sterile water and pitch to a
starter. This should clean up any lactobacillus from the yeast - your mos=
t
likely source.

Re-examine ALL the other things the beer comes into contact with, hoses,
spoons, pots, measuring devices, etc. etc.  Clean them scrupulously.
- ---------------------------------------------------
Charley Puzzled in N CA is concerned by the Cats' Meow Schedule for a
Wicked Pale Ale. Each of these steps is explainable for a lager type malt=

with 95F being an acid rest ( You could also stop at 114F for a gum rest =
if
you are using wheat).  The 156-158F saccharification rest is fine for a
high dextrin brew and the boiling step is OK for producing melandoins as
you surmise.  What puzzles me is why this schedule is used in an Ale reci=
pe
and presumably with a Pale Malt.
- ---------------------------------------------------
Keith Royster ask about how using a jockey box arrangement will affect hi=
s
beer and worries that the beer will dissolve his copper tubing used to co=
ol
the beer as it passes through the ice bed. =


First of all pure copper *metal* is not soluble in acids which are
non-oxidizing (like hydrochloric, sulfuric, etc.) but is soluble in
oxidizing acids like conc. nitric. The point here is that it is the *oxid=
e*
of copper which is soluble in acids and not the metal.  Copper metal,
especially in a wet environment and when somewhat impure does oxidize
readily in air ( as the reddish brown of copper oxide on the outside of
older, used tubing tells you).  Beer can dissolve the copper oxide.  So i=
f
you have oxygen around, copper will dissolve in beer but not directly.
Oxygen is not around in a CO2 system, but if you are still worried about
it,  just drain off the first few milliliters of beer (whatever your jock=
ey
box tubing will hold) and discard it each time you draw a beer after a lo=
ng
delay to prevent this potentiality.

However, despite all the above comments, I don't think it is a good idea =
to
leave beer in a line at room temperature for a long time as it will often=

spoil.  Set up a  flush valve ( or use a Carbonator and water bottle or
hose ) and remove the jockey box from the keg fitting so that if you are
going to leave it for several days it doesn't become a source of infectio=
n
or a place to lose carbonation.
- ---------------------------------------------------- =

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:34:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: DAVE BRADLEY IC742 6-7932 <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at LILLY.COM>
Subject: Short-n-Sweet: can of lite for yeast washing?

Had a thought last night.  To support the Big Boys breweries,
could one use a couple of cans of light lager to rinse your
yeast cake?  This in place of boiled+cooled water we use now
to rinse the cake from trub and dead yeast cells.  Anyone do this?

Dave in Indy
Home of the 3-B Brewery, (v.) Ltd.


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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:39:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alpinessj at aol.com
Subject: Re: Extract IPA ( Mathew Arnold) & Flying Brews (Michael Frank)

Extract IPA

Should be a BIG beer! However, if the 1.5# Northwestern Gold DME means dark
malt extract, I would substitute amber or even light instead. If you are in
the "English mood", I suggest using Kent Goldings instead of Willamette. I
think the Goldings produce a wonderful flavor and aroma that in an IPA. I
would also "dry-hop". Hoptech in California (I'm sure you can find it
elsewhere too) sells a hop submerger which is merely a heavy food grade
plastic cylinder with a hole drilled into it. I use this with hop plugs in a
bag for dry-hopping in the secondary or keg. The cylinder keeps the hops
submerged. When you are finished, just remove the bag - no mess. I love IPA's
too, but the most IBU's I have put in were 69 :) , all Kent Goldings.

Flying Brews

I used to travel every week in the US with my job, mostly flying. I found the
easiest way to transport beer was with a school book style backpack. I could
fit 12 oz, 22 oz, and even 1 litre bottles in it. I would remove the bottles
from the packaging, place them in a sock ( this prevents you from clanging
through the airport and also protects the bottles). I took the backpack with
me as a carry-on ( never trust the baggage handlers) and just put it under my
seat. I never had anyone question me about it.

You won't be getting away from the monsoon in Denver. It has been raining
every day here, Yesterday, we had a storm that produced so much hail downtown
they were considering using snowplows to remove it!

Anyway, have a good trip.

Scott Jackson

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:37:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Chocolate and partial boil; aeration

Greetings,

This weekend I did a nice busy stout -- dark malt extract, spices,
molasses, chocolate.  Per Papazian, I used unsweetened baker's
chocolate (an 8 oz bar) added to the boil.  My current pot is only
large enough for a partial boil.  I let the boiled wort cool, then
tried to get the fluid into the fermenter.  Unfortunately, I assume
due to the chocolate, the trub and hops sediment was almost a gelatin.

Whirlpool?  HA!  Strainer?  DOUBLE HA!

The strainer clogged on contact.  I wound up rinsing it after each
CUP of wort.  Since I hadn't been prepared for this, I lost sanitation
and had to re-pasteurize the wort (to avoid worry).

Questions:

1. Is cocoa powder a better way to get chocolate flavor, or does
   it have its own problems?

2. Is this problem fixed by the thinner wort of a full boil?

Also, if anyone is still shaking a carboy for aeration, I have a safer
and easier suggestion.  I haven't seen this specific suggestion on the
net, so it's probably only been posted 1000 times.

Use a couple of sanitized buckets (I'm not saying to ferment in
plastic, put down that hatchet).  Once your wort is cool, siphon into
a bucket.  Pour back and forth (if a 5 gal bucket is too much to heft
and pour, use a sanitized saucepan to ladle the first half).  During
all this, pour from enough height to splash and foam.  Once you're
happy with the aeration, pour through a funnel into your carboy.

I get excellent foamy aeration without having to lift and shake a
slippery and fragile 5 gallon carboy, or messing with an air pump.  If
you're not pumping in pure O2 I don't think there's a better approach.

Reminder, food-grade buckets are free or cheap at donut shops and
supermarket bakeries.

Best to all,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:41:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Kidneys; BOTULISM!  BATF!  AOB MALFEASANCE!

( Gee, 33 articles and NONE are on these topics!  I just HAD
  to cancel/resubmit with a new header!  :-)

Greetings to all, and espcially:

> From: Bob.Sutton at fluordaniel.com
> Subject: IMKR?
> 
>   Any idea why beer shows up as a for kidney stone 
>   promoter? Maybe we need to have warning labels 
>   on our brews.

I'm not a doctor and I don't even WATCH them on TV.  However,
beer can dehydrate you, since the alcohol is a diuretic.  And
it sneaks up on you.  I've seen people who were drunk, still
steadily drinking, and dehydrated.  Your Metabolism May Vary.

I would certainly recommend you (1) ask an MD if that's the
whole problem and (2) ensure you stay hydrated when you drink.
I personally find that when I drink alcohol I perspire, urinate
a lot, and wind up dehydrated in the morning unless I am careful.


> From: smurman at best.com
> Subject: apple juice starters//recent topics
> 
> What is with all the people whining about the Eisbock or botulism
> threads?  ...  If you're not
> personally interested, then page down to the next article.  If you
> feel the digest has stagnated, then by all means start a new topic,

I agree completely.  I've found both threads to contain useful and
interesting information.  (I didn't know you could legally ice-filter,
as long as you don't remove more than 1/2 percent of the water.)

I think some people got annoyed by the escalating guesswork, FUD
and flaming.  The most useful of these annoyed persons were those
who did actual research and provided documented, useful data.

However, I have also enjoyed some of the humorous comments about
these threads.  I think those have helped us all keep our
perspective as we discuss potentially lethal topics like
botulism or the BATF.

(I won't comment on the meta-implications of a message telling
people to not post messages about what not to post :-)

Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:14:06 -0500
From: layton at sc45.dseg.ti.com (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
Subject: bottle size vs carbonation, hopbacks

Al Petrukhin has read about other folks' problems with inconsistent
carbonation related to bottle size. I've bottle conditioned beer in
sizes from 8 to 22 oz. In my experience, bottle size has never had
a noticeable effect on carbonation level. Just add the appropriate
amount of priming sugar to the entire quantity of beer (making sure
that the sugar is well mixed into the beer) then fill whatever size
or sizes of bottles you have. It works for me.

- -------------------

There seems to be some mis-communication on the digest about hopbacks.
Some think of a hopback as a device to separate boiled hops in the
kettle from the wort. Some think of a hopback as a device to allow
hot wort to pass through a container of fresh (not boiled, that is)
hops in order to impart hop aroma and flavor to the final product. I 
think they are both correct, but the beginning brewer may be a bit 
confused by this loose terminology. Can anyone propose a better term 
for one or the other so that we all understand what is meant without 
further explanation?

Jim Layton (Howe, TX)

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:48:47 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: RE: Malta as starter

     Hi all,
     
     Delano talks about his experiment using Malta Goya as a yeast starter. 
     He achieved some yeast growth (enough to reduce the SG by 1.008) when 
     using a liquid yeast culture, and substantial growth when using dried 
     yeast.  He blames preservatives in the Malta for the strange yeast 
     performance.
     
     While he may be correct, there are other possible explanations.  He 
     mentioned shaking the Malta to aerate/decarbonate it after adding the 
     liquid culture.  My guess would be that he didn't get all the CO2 out 
     of the Malta, and therefore didn't get much O2 into it.  That could 
     explain the slow fermentation he witnessed with the liquid yeast.  The 
     dry yeast, being pitched in such great quantity and having a lower O2 
     requirement, would not be as effected.
     
     It is not absolutely necessary for preservatives to be in the Malta if 
     the pH is low (>4.6) and it is pasteurized in the bottle.
     
     On the other hand, I think that Malta would make a poor starter media 
     regardless of whether or not it has preservatives.  Firstly, it 
     contains a fair amount of corn sugar and other adjuncts.   Secondly, 
     it is not cheap.
     
     Another factor is its gravity:  how high is it?  It is best to use low 
     gravity wort for the initial steps of yeast growing (I use wort at 
     1.025-1.030).  Once the culture gets going (250+ mL) I start feeding 
     it a more normal gravity wort.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:02:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: I stand (at least partially) corrected

It seems to be the consensus of those who responded to my post
regarding Bud's "born-on" dates that they assume the date represents
the bottling date. To me, a beer is born when it is set to
fermentation -- after all, you don't label your child's birth as the
day he or she left the hospital -- but I realize I'm playing with
semantics a bit here.

I hadn't been aware that, as Mike Blakey pointed out, A-B had problems
getting their born-on dates precise. That would make sense if it's a
few days off that a drinker could be imbibing a bud on the same date
that's stamped on the bottle, although that distributor's still doing
an awfully quick job of turing around inventory.

I suppose the one benefit to the born-on marketing campaign is that it
is letting people know that fresh beer tastes better. Maybe that will
prompt more people to head down to the local brewpub to get really
fresh beer (then again, maybe not....).

Now, for an actual (home)brewing related question.

I'm thinking about undertaking my first weizen for my next batch. I
read somewhere recently (I think it was in Ray Daniels' book) that
weizens should ideally be fermented at approx. 64F, even though the
yeast is tolerant of higher temps. At this time of year, the lowest I
can get my fermentation is about 68 -- and that's using the tub of
water with a t-shirt over the carboy cooling method.

Does anybody have any thoughts regarding fermenting a weizen closer to
68 or 70? Also, which yeast strain is preferred? Wyeast's descriptions
of their two weizen strains really don't give me enough info to make
an educated choice.

Thanks in advance for the help.

 -Steve





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Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com


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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 12:09:00 PDT
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Specific Gravity of Stuff

Thanks to the two brewers who responded to my question of baselines for specific
gravity yield of various sugars. I did not receive any estimates for any 
fruit unfortunately. 
I found a more conclusive summary which I attached below that shows what 
I was looking for. It shows some good results; however, it appears that 
the answers are not always conclusive and there is room for more work in 
this area.
The summary...

                   Various sources of yield in specific gravity points   
                   per pound per gallon water.
                                (as posted in the digest)
            
            I do not know the sources of these numbers except for Jimmy.
            
            1 Unknown
            2 Unknown
            3 Jimmy Fingerle 
            4 Unknown
            
                                   1    2     3    4
            Ingredient:
            Liquid malt extract   35    -    36   35
            Dry malt extract      
            Dry spray malt        42   43    42   44
            Corn sugar            37   45    44   40
            Cane sugar            44   45     -   42
            Brown sugar           41   44     -   45
            Rice syrup            36    -     -    -
            Dextrin powder        42    -     -    -
            Pale malt             31   36    29   32
            Lager malt            31   35     -    -
            Munich malt           26  30-33   -   28
            Mild ale malt         27  29-34   -    -
            Crystal malt          22  29-31  29    -
            Wheat malt            34   39     -   30
            Cara pils malt        23   29     -   24
            Roast barley          27   29     0    2
            Chocolate malt        27   29     0    2
            Black patent          27   29     0    2
            Honey                 38    -    34   33
            Molasses              45   42    44    -

   ---------------------------------------------------------------

            No fruit estimates :(

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:37:37 +0000
From: "Kris Jacobs" <jtsnake at serv01.net-link.net>
Subject: Re: Extract IPA Ideas

Matt Arnold wrote:
 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:13:48 GMT
> From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold)
> Subject: Extract IPA ideas
> 
> I've got two questions. 1) How does the recipe look, especially to you
> hop-heads?

Matt, not enough hops!  :)  Check out this recipe, it's my favorite IPA:
http://realbeer.com/hops/sister.html

I have brewed it twice now, and love it.  I used Chinook pellets, so I dropped 
the Chinook to 2.5 ozs instead of three.  Not only does that URL contain a good 
recipe, I *really* like Dave's take on how an IPA should be. 

- --Kris Jacobs
Kalamazoo, MI 

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:47:39 +0000
From: "Kris Jacobs" <jtsnake at serv01.net-link.net>
Subject: Bow down to thine IPA!

Matt Gadow wrote:

> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:04:28 -0700
> From: Matt Gadow <mgadow at ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: 100 IBU IPA's
> 
> I recently noticed a great looking recipe on Glenn Tinseth's Hop's page
> (www.realbeer.com/hops) for Dave Brockington's Sister Star of the Sun
> IPA!  This beer looked like a challenge I couldn't back away from-
> 3 oz. of Chinook Hops for bittering, plus 4 more oz. EKG / Fuggle for
> flavor & aroma!

Matt (#2)  :) --

I have brewed this twice now -- and I LOVE it!  First time, straight off Dave's 
recipe, and second time I brought down the Chinooks a little bit, 'cause I used 
pellets.  The other 4 oz were plugs.  I just kegged & force-CO2'd a 
batch this weekend, and I am looking forward to having one once I get home from 
the office.  This one (2nd one) started  at  1.065, and fermented down nicely to 
1.010 with a Wyeast # 1028 starter.  I used M & F pale ale malt the first time, 
and used DWC pale ale this time.  I think that I like the DWC better -- but I 
guess that I should brew this a few more times with different malts to be sure. 
 ;)

- --Kris Jacobs
Kalamazoo, MI

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 21:22:00 PDT
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.jf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: 100 IBU IPA's


Text item: Text Item

In HBD #2483 Matt Gadow talks about Dave Brockington's Sister Star of the Sun
and it being 100 IBU's
in strength.  I tasted David's IPA a few years back at a judging in Corvallis
Oregon.  I found the beer too hoppy for the style.  There was so much bitterness
in it that you only wanted a small taste.  Of course in a judging compared to
other less hoppy IPA's it was the best - but try to choke down a pint is
challenging!  Now let the beer age for 9 months or longer (like the original
IPA's did on their way to India) and it is probably good to great, but 100 IBU's
out of the fermenter is way too much!  

Don't get me wrong, I love hops, but you need balance.  Rogue released their
1996 BarleyWine and advertised 120 IBU's on the bottle.  It has an intensive hop
bitterness - let it age for a few years.  At a recent tasting with other hop
heads, we found it too bitter to enjoy.

martin

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:45:04 -0700
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at saros.com>
Subject: Protein rest at 122F not a good choice

In HBD #2483 Dave Burley helps an extract brewer add unmalted barley to
his process, but states:

> ... Stop for 15 -30 minutes
> at 122F then heat up to 155F and finish
> ...
> The soluble protein formed at 122F will
> provide the head you desire.

It won't. This has been covered here before. The rest at 122F degrades
the proteins that contribute to heading, body and mouthfeel into
smaller, superfluous proteins that don't contribute.  Resting above 128F
would serve you better, by letting proteinase enzymes (choppers) develop
a bigger pool of medium weight proteins (good proteins) from the larger
proteins that otherwise simply go to hotbreak. 

On those occassions when some peptidase (nibblers) activity is wanted,
(ie to reduce glucans from unmalted grains) you're better off in going
to the high end of pepdidase's lability range, allowing them to do some
work before denaturing, but also allowing more proteinase activity to
develop your pool of medium molecular weight proteins.  A rest within
127F-135F is in the crossover range where you'll get increasingly less
pepdidase action, although some; and unhampered proteinase activity.

Normally, when I do a protein rest, I go to 132-135F to stop peptidase
activity quickly, and then just allow the mash temperature to fall while
it rests since it's out of harms way at lower temps.

DaveB: The suggestion re: sulphuring hops before drying is interesting,
apples are also sulphered before drying, anyone out there know more
about this? 

Charles Rich (Seattle, USA)

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 16:42:59 EDT
From: Greg_T._Smith at notes.pw.com
Subject: Bottling a Six-Pack Before Kegging

I am hopefully going to keg two batches this weekend 
(assuming the US Mail can get caught up - I should have 
had my new kegs by last weekend, but nothing yet).  Anyway,
a friend of mine promised some of her homebrew to some friends,
but she forgot to make some.  I told her I would bottle three 
or six bottles from each of my batches this weekend when I keg.
Trouble is, I need to find the best way to prime when I do it.

Is it best to put a three-pack's (or six-pack's) worth of beer
into a 'bottling bucket' and prime that together?  or should I
just prime each bottle (I don't want any grenades)? or should I do something 
else?  Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.


TIA,
Greg Smith
BarnBrew Brewery
Claryville, NY

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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:09:32 -0400
From: "Mark Rose" <mrose at visi.net>
Subject: A/B American Hop Ale?!?

I was at the Williamsburg A/B brewery this weekend visiting the A/B
hospitality center with several people on vacation.  Looking at the
assortment of beers available for tasting, I saw one called "American Hop
Ale."  Curious about what an A/B product named hop ale tasted like, I
ordered one free cup.

What I tasted was not at all what I expected!  The ale itself was kind of an
American Brown Ale, with light body and correct color and slight ale yeast
flavor.  It had a small amount of maltiness, but a very light,clean taste
like 1056 Chico Ale.  But, it was WELL hopped!  Cascade punched right
through the flavor and aroma, as well as some other less identifiable hops.
It tasted like a well-hopped homebrew, not the usual A/B colored water with
no hops.  While not perfect, I was impressed with A/B.  The BudLight kind of
people I was with thought the Hop Ale was too bitter, but I liked it enough
to have another.  If they ever decided to take on the craft brewing industry
head to head, it would be a nasty scene that we would all love to taste!

Was this a trial offering of a beer for marketing purposes?  Or, does anyone
know anything about this beer?

Mark Rose
Hampton, VA


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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:37:58 -0700
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at saros.com>
Subject: Pressure cooking first runnings

In HBD # 2483, Charlie Burns asks:

> ... but then it calls for taking 1/4 of the mash
> and boiling it. What's the point here? Are we going for melanoidins
without
> being concerned about main mash temp? Does this make sense? It almost
seems
> the same as pressure cooking the first runnings for 30 minutes. And
whatever
> happened to that experiment anyway, did it really produce a malty
flavor?

I've posted some things regarding this lately on rec.craft.brewing, but
am remiss in not responding to this the original group, so, Thanks for
the question.  I'll try to bring things up to date.

Yes, it works very well.  For flavor development I'd say it quite
eclipses multiply boiled decocs and is much simpler. However, I've
backed away from my earlier opinions about flavor being the only reason
to decoc.  The current 'Brewing Techniques' article on Pilsner Urquell,
and conversations with Dr. Pivo make it apparent that Czech brewers
capitalize on short decoc boils to render starch available for
conversion at low-gelatinization temperatures, around 143F, and I'd
guess it's also tied to protein development since proteinase is still
labile and possibly(?) the boils make more HMWP available for them.

I think my last post here regarded pre-canning decoc to add to one's
mash later, on brewday.  That works fine too.  Remember to rest it at
sugar conversion temperatures before p-cooking/canning it though.  I
have a few cans of p-cooked mash that are 4-5 months old and I cannot
taste any flavor deterioration in them.  I've come around to Charlie
Scandrett's suggestion to p-cook the first runnings then add that back
to the remainder of the wort collection in the kettle as the easiest and
most practical way to get decoc flavor.

I recently p-cooked the entire wort collection for an 8-gallon batch of
some 'novelty' lager, just to see what would happen.  That''s still
fermenting but my impressions at the time were that, while p-cooking a
fraction of the wort and adding it back contributes nicely; p-cooking
the entire collection (250F for 40 mins) was nearly excessive.  If I
cook the entire collection again, I'd throttle back to 240F for about 30
mins.  Some benefits of p-cooking in addition to malty flavor are
astounding hotbreak separation and no bubbling or foaming under pressure
that might harm one's protein pool.  If you want to risk it, and I don't
reccommend it, hop utilization is also unbelievable; about 1/8 oz. low
alpha hops to bitter a ten gallon batch, but you'll still want to boil
for flavor additions.  P-cooked hopping adds bitterness but *no* hop
flavor.

Anyway that's the news from Lake Woebegone, Cheers to all,
Charles Rich (Seattle, USA)




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