---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  A-B/Seaworld-Ohio/what to drink in NE Ohio (Steve Alexander)
  Dorky Guinness Joke (John Goldthwaite)
  Hop backs (Darrell)
  entry fee for commercially run HB contests (dbrigham)
  RE: Chocolate in beer (George De Piro)
  Kidney Stones, Gout and Stout - pt1 (Steve Alexander)
  Off taste -- third batch is a charm ? (Richard Levenberg)
  Airstones in kegs (Guy Mason)
  Grades of CO2 (Darrell)
  p-decoction ("Rich, Charles")
  Specific Gravity contribution of fruit HBD 2485 ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  RE: A-B American Hop Ale / Alcohol Question ("Verbal Blakey")
  Kidney Stones, Gout and Stout - pt 2 (Steve Alexander)
  Temperature for fermenting weizen (John Rezabek)
  plambic, 16 ounces (Paul Niebergall)
  Potatoe wine and the dangers of wood alcool ("Jacques Gauthier")
  How can I make a maltmill??? (Tom Krivec)
  HBD Delivery (Paul Niebergall)
  overnight mash/Dave Line (John D Elsworth)
  5l mini-kegs:  summary on web site (Jim Graham)
  Florida and the "b" word (AlannnnT)


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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:27:50 +0000
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: A-B/Seaworld-Ohio/what to drink in NE Ohio

Arnold J. Neitzke writes about the Anheuser-Busch 'Beer School' at
Seaworld Ohio...
>When it came time for the "fresh beer" sampling, they poured a bud in one 
>cup and a "old" bud in another cup, I guess I wouldn't make a very good 
>beer judge, because I didn't taste any difference.

One of the financial magazines, Forbes, had an interview article with
August Busch the 4th in the past year.  During the interview the
reporter was also presented with a fresh and an old A-B product to
taste, he preferred the older beer!

>The reason for using beechwood aging, is that the yeast clings to the
>curled wood chips, exposing more beer to the yeast, allowing for a faster
>aging process of 24 days.

Ahh yes, the traditional 24 day lagering period - no wonder it's called
the 'King of Beers'.  It's so easy to confuse 'Bud' with the Czech
product of the same name (read dripping sarcasm here).

>Of course he had to slam the micro's because they do ales which are 
>easier to do , even though he had a pale ALE sitting on the table, from a 
>micro!

An article last year in Barron's (another financial rag) indicated that
A-B was pushing their distributors very hard to not carry other brewers'
products, particularly micros other than Redhook, which has an A-B
affiliation.  This is all very sad.  A-B certainly has the commercial
brewing science down to an art, employing some of the worlds finest
brewing scientists, and they certainly have the means to produce truly
wonderful beers.  Instead of taking the battle to the tastebuds of the
consumer they instead choose to 'dump' on their successful competition
and block the distribution channels and purposely confuse consumers
about the causes of 'skunkiness' in beer via their TV ads.  How
pathetic.

The real problem at A-B is that even their new mega-micro clone beer
products, like the pale ale mentioned, are targeted at a mass audience -
in other words no one. I somehow doubt that the guys(or gals) who
originally developed Kindl Weiss, Celis White, Duvel, Spaten Ur-Marzen,
Grant's IPA or, for a closer-to-home example, Rob Moline's recent
Barleywine went to the malls to performs consumer taste tests and
feedback sessions before releasing their products.  Instead, one brewer
with some insight, experience and vision made some critical choices and
some incremental improvements to produce a beverage with true
character.  'Nuff said, A-B's an easy target on this forum.

>So if your on the east side of Ohio and want to see some rather large 
>fish :), take the 30 minutes for some mild amusement, and get a certified 
>beermaster certificate, I got mine :)

My office is 10 minutes from Seaworld-Ohio, but I somehow doubt that
I'll make the 'Beermaster' re-education camp.

If you're in North-East Ohio my first suggestion would be to include a
stop by the Great Lakes Brewing Company for some of their award winning
ales, especially their superb 'Edmund Fitzgerald Porter' - just west of
the 'West Side Market' in Cleveland, maybe 25 minutes from Seaworld but
well worth the trip.  Liberty Brewing, Crooked River(micro/no pub) and
Lift Bridge are other area micros well worth a try.  There is a lot to
do in Northeast Ohio besides Seaworld, but I won't bore the HBD
collective.

sorry for the rant - just had to,
Steve Alexander



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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:08:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: ir358 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John Goldthwaite)
Subject: Dorky Guinness Joke

One day an Englishman, (John) a Scot, (Ian) and an Irishman (Bono)
walked into a pub together. They each proceeded to order a pint
of Guinness.  Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy
beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints, and were 
stuck in the thick head. 
The Englishman pushed his beer from him in disgust.
The Scot fished the offending fly out of his beer and continued
drinking it as if nothing had happened.
The Irishman too, picked the fly out of his drink, held it out
over the beer and then started yelling,
"SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT YOU BASTARD!" 

I've got to pass this experience along to all the Stout lovers.
Recently was catching the Jazz Mandolin Project and a friend
bought me a pub draught. This is the first time I had tried 
one of the newfangled cans. To tell the truth, it was awful.
No mouthfeel,no roasted anything, watery and lame. It had
some hop bitterness, but that was it.  I assume this is due to 
the Americanization factor, but I sure wish the folks at 
Guinness would just send us their original Irish formulation
instead of the weak stuff I tried. Hell, my extract clone
put this stuff to shame.  Has anyone else had this experience,
or did I just get clunker?  Really, if there had been a fly
around, I woulda held him up and forced the rest of my glass
down his little throat.  Hasta Lumbago people. JG Gumby.

- --
"Gonna drink all day, gonna rock all night,
The law come to getcha if you don't walk right..."[Garcia/Hunter]

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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:18:32 -0600
From: Darrell <darrell at montrose.net>
Subject: Hop backs

James R. Layton writes:

"Can anyone propose a better term
for one or the other so that we all understand what is meant without
further explanation?"

How about a Hop Back for the device to separate hops from the boiled
wort (I believe that is the original meaning), and "Infusion Hopping"
for the process of "infusing" a boiled wort with unboiled hops (or would
you be infusing the hops with the wort?).  Whatever the case, I think
it's appropriate. Webster's definition of  "infuse" suits this to a "T".

- --
Darrell Garton
Montrose, CO



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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 15:18:42 EST
From: dbrigham at nsf.gov
Subject: entry fee for commercially run HB contests

        There is a local (Northern Virginia) chain of large (read 
        *GIANT*) wine/beer outlet stores called Total Beverage.  Not the 
        best prices, but usually a very extensive collection of imported 
        and microbrewed beer.
        
        Well just recently in local advertising they have a plug in for 
        the '1st Annual Total Beverage Homebrew Contest'.  The following 
        category entries are listed:
        
        ALE, LAGER, PALE ALE, PILSNER, PORTER, STOUT, SPECIALTY/FRUIT & 
        SPICE
        
        One entry per person per style.
        
        Recipe becomes property of Total Beverage.
        
        Judging:  Six certified Master Brewers will rate the various 
        styles of beer by the guidelines set forth by the American 
        Homebrew Association.
        
        $25 entry fee.
        
        1st Place - Gold Medal and $500
        2nd Place - Silver Medal and $250
        Overall Winner - Grand Champion - Platinum Plaque - $1000
        
        ************************************************************
        OK - I have some problems with this:
        
        - since when do those listed styles encompass all the styles in 
        the AHA 'guidelines'?
        - does the recipe become the property of Total Beverage for 
        every entry or only the winners?
        - if you add up the prize money you get $1750, divide that by 
        $25 per entry and you only need 70 entries to pay for all the 
        prize cash (and what - 4 more entries to pay for the plaque?) - 
        so what do they need all the rest of the money for?  Typically 
        HB contests in this area bring far many more entries than 70.
        
        I'm used to club run contests, and paying less than $10 per 
        entry.  You'd think these folks would be able to cut an even 
        better entry fee since they can provide the venue (very large 
        stores).
        
        Does anyone else have experience with contests run by 
        retailers/beer associated businesses?  If so, does the 
        advertising for this contest sound all that unusual?
        
        Thanks for letting me bend your (electronic) ear!
        
        Dana Brigham
        National Science Foundation
        dbrigham at nsf.gov


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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:28:29 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: RE: Chocolate in beer

     Hi all,
     
     Sam posted a question about brewing with chocolate.  He described the 
     horrible mess that he made in his kettle by doing a partial boil and 
     using baker's chocolate.  He wonders if a full boil and cocoa powder 
     will change things for the better.
     
     I have used chocolate on several occasions, and have used solid, 
     powdered, and "Dutched" powdered cocoa.  I will summarize what I have 
     learned:
     
     1.  Keep your hop rates VERY low and use a high mash temp or extract 
     that is relatively unfermentable (Laaglander extra light comes to 
     mind).  The bitterness from the chocolate is VERY strong and 
     unpleasantly clinging.  You need a lot of sweetness to balance it.  I 
     would use no more than 2 AAU's of hops in a 5 gallon batch of beer 
     with a SG around 1.055 or so.
     
     2.  Solid chocolate (ie, Baker's chocolate) is the messiest to work 
     with, but the powders aren't all that much better!  In all cases I 
     have ended up with a thick layer of deep brown sludge in the 
     fermenter.  Just plan on losing a lot of beer at racking time, and 
     rack carefully so as to avoid both the sludge on the bottom and the 
     oil slick on the surface.  On the bright side, you won't get all that 
     much Kraeusen (if any), so you can fill the primary a bit higher than 
     you normally would.  Note that Dutched powder DID allow a Kraeusen to 
     form, so don't over fill the carboy if using that.
     
     3.  Don't use sweetened chocolate:  the sugars will ferment out 
     completely and dry out the beer, accentuating the bitterness of the 
     chocolate.
     
     4.  Baker's chocolate and regular cocoa powder are similar in the 
     taste they give beer.  Dutched cocoa is processed with alkali, which 
     seems to mellow it a bit (it isn't quite as bitter as the other 
     forms).
     
     I've never tried a partial boil when using chocolate, so I can't help 
     you there.  A full boil definitely wouldn't hurt, though.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:57:42 +0000
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Kidney Stones, Gout and Stout - pt1

Bob Sutton asks about kidney stones and beer.

First  off I don't have a medical background, nor am I a biochemist tho'
I often play one on HBD.  Use any of the information I supply only with
concurrence from your physician. YMMV, objects in mirror may appear
closer, all caveats apply.

  >When the urologist stopped by to check on my 
  >progress, he stated that I should increase my 
  >fluid intake to help flush these pesky buggers 
  >from my system. Gee - I thought - a nobrainer - 
  >until he passed on the NIH recommendations to 
  >reduce BEER intake if your predisposed to kidney 
  >stones (whatever that means).
  
  >Well I can easily deal with the reduction of 
  >asparagus, collards and rhubarb in my diet...
Avoid sorrel too!! Lots of oxalic acid.
  >but BEER?
  
  >It seems to me the NIH has taken a wrong turn 
  >somewhere. For you chemists out there, kidney 
  >stones are typically formed from calcium 
  >oxalate. Since I haven't brewed with oxalic acid 
  >- and my calcium hardness is no worse that 
  >drinking water in many parts of the world - I'm 
  >puzzled by the reasons to reduce beer intake 
  >maybe the NIH was thinking "Bud").

Harrison's 'Principles of Internal Medicine,' a standard medical
reference  notes a number of causes for kidney stones.  Most stones are
calcium oxalate, 30% are associated with elevated calcium in the urine
that may be a familial trait or due to several specific illnesses,
elevated oxalate levels are rare.  More commonly high uric acid levels
cause the precipitation of calcium oxalate.  Less often stones are uric
acid (sodium urate actually) and this is also due to high uric acid
levels in urine.

I've been looking at this same problem lately since my brother was
recently diagnosed with gout, the painful formation of uric acid
crystals in the joints due to excess uric acid levels.  Several other
HBD questions related to gout have come up in the past few years.

The root of all of these problems is excess uric acid, or
hyperuricemia.   Uric acid is the normal breakdown product of purines
that we eat and the ones that our bodies create. The purines are the
nucleic acid bases adenine and guanine.  Very nearly 50% of the bases of
all RNA and DNA are purines.  Excess uric acid (3.5-7 mg/dL is normal
level for males) can have a number of causes.  Hyperuricemia affects
about 3 per 1000 humans.  Only a small subset of this 0.3% have problems
(0.015% of the pop gets gout for example).

Some less likely causes include impaired renal function, therefore lower
uric excretion rates which cause the increase.  Various genetic glycogen
storage defects can cause hyperuricemia - apparently prolonged
hypoglycemia causes the accumulation of organic acids (like lactate)
which interferes with kidney function in eliminating uric acid.  Serum
acidosis from other causes can create the same problem.  Prolonged
starvation - the same. Excess nucleic acid degradation from several
sources can be a cause - so chemotherapy and some forms of cancer can
elevate uric acid levels.

Excess purine synthesis by your own body, and subsequent catabolism of
the excess purine into uric acid is the most likely cause in an
otherwise healthy individual. There are several common minor genetic
defects that can cause this.  To make a long story short, there are
three probable defects. One of two distinct enzymes involved in
producing purine precursors, for some reason, cannot be properly
inhibited, so your system produces too much purine. The excess must be
degraded into uric acid for elimination.  Alternatively a salvage enzyme
is underactive and the excess substrate level of
5-phospho-a-d-ribosyl-1pyrophosphate (PRPP) causes an increase in the
activity of the purine generating enzymes again.

Avoiding purine rich foods is the recommendation .  Most organ meats
such as liver, sweetbreads(thymus), brain and also anchovies (another
good reason to hate anchovies) are on the "don't" list.  Milk is OK, it
apparently contains an enzyme that degrades some of the purines.  It
surprises me, but I'm told that eggs are OK. I would have expected a lot
of RNA/DNA in the yolk.  I don't know what else constitutes a low-purine
diet, but avoiding heaps of RNA/DNA is the point.  Looks like Bob has a
good excuse to avoid liver and asparagus!

more ...



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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:40:10 -0700
From: Richard Levenberg <richardl at Adobe.COM>
Subject: Off taste -- third batch is a charm ?

Fellow brewers, 

Hello and sorry in advance for the long post.  I am very new to this
and only have two brews under my belt.  I love the hobby ( and the
beer ) though and have been lurking on this mailing list since Nov
'96.

My first brew was a total flop.  I still dont know for sure but I got
the yeast from a brewery down the street from where I work and I think
the yeast/trub mixture was so hoppy that it blew the bitterness scale
to the point of undrinkability.  I threw it all out save two bottles
if anyone is interested in testing my theory.  It also had an off
taste that I will talk about.

My next brew was a batch from TNJOHB and I way underdid the hops out
of fear.  The batch came out pretty good with absolutely no hop
signature ( I will be less cautious next time ) but still had this
strange aftertaste.  

My new theory is that the aftertaste is from high fermentation
temperatures ( I live in Concord, CA and couldnt get the brews below
75 in most cases ).  Both brews fermented fast and furious for about
three days and carbonated well in the bottle.  I dont think I had any
infections ( no clear signs ).

My question is there a good way to taste the extremes of the tastes
that an off beer will have ( without poisoning yourself ) without
becoming a judge.  One of my early theories about the first beer was
chlorophenols but I found that Vicks Throat Spray, which I absolutely
cannot stand, contains phenol, smells like phenol and tastes like
phenol.  The first brew was NOT contaminated with phenols.  I am
looking for something like this for all the tastes a beer could have
esp. high fermentation temperature examples.  CP says high
fermentation could create winey, clovely like flavors and my mind says
yeah thats right, winey and clovey, but I cant really say.  

I know what I like but there is no way for me to equate the
description of problems in books and FAQs with the actual smell and
taste of problems unless I have smelled and tasted an example ( like
Vicks ).

In hopes that my theory is right, my wife bought me a used
refrigerator that I am going to use for the next brew ( with a
refrigerator controller ) to keep it at 65 degrees. At least I will
know the difference between beer fermented at 78 degrees and beer
fermented at 65 degrees.  TIA.  

richardl



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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:44:18 -0400
From: Guy Mason <guy at adra.com>
Subject: Airstones in kegs

Greetings,

I'd like to hear from anyone out there that uses an airstone to carbonate
their kegged beer.  How do you set it up? Is it worth the money?   Easy to
use? etc.

Thanks

- -- guy

Some people look at the world around them and say "Why"
I look at the world around me and say "Huh?"


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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:16:32 -0600
From: Darrell <darrell at montrose.net>
Subject: Grades of CO2

There have been a number of questions regarding "Is all CO2 created
equal?"

Here's what I know:

Bottom line:  CO2 is CO2.  The only differences in the gas industry that
I know of are Medical Grade CO2 and Ultra High Purity CO2 for the
semiconductor industry.  These two grades of gas are simply tested for
purity, but typically come from the same source that the
beverage/welding/industrial grade comes from.  This is usually the case
with Argon, Nitrogen, and Oxygen as well.  Industrial grade oxygen and
Medical grade oxygen cylinders both get filled from the same bulk liquid
tank.  The grading is simply done as a test on the gas in the cylinder
to ensure its purity.

Typically, when a high grade of gas is required, one uses a cryogenic
tank, and pulls the vapor off the top of the tank, ensuring a very high
degree of purity.  Unlike gases such as nitrogen and oxygen, CO2 is a
liquefied gas in the cylinder.  When you use your CO2, you are getting
it from a liquid source -- very pure, unless your cylinder has become
contaminated by suck back from a bank, or some other problem (fairly
common...).  I know of no "lubrication", or other such treatments to CO2
for beverage or fire extinguisher use, as one poster surmised.  When a
distributor asks if it is for beverage, I would assume he is either
curious, or checking to make sure that it isn't for medical use, since
that is the only use that would require any type of certification.
There is noise that the FDA may eventually impose some sort of "food
grade" certification for CO2 used for food and beverage , but currently,
I can find no such requirement.

By the way, should such a "food grade" certification become required,
the cost of your CO2 would surely increase.  However, since there is no
difference in the gas, just the certification, if you are not using the
gas in a commercial application, you can buy "welding grade" and do
whatever you d at #!m well please with it!!  (Emphasis on the "not in a
commercial application"!!!)  FDA regulates commercial applications, not
what you cook in your kitchen for your own family.

- --
Darrell Garton
Montrose, CO



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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:26:14 -0700
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at saros.com>
Subject: p-decoction

A couple of people have asked how I go about p-cooking the first
runnings.  Since there is potential here for a terrific mess, not to
mention harm, I'd recommend that anyone contemplating it should be well
acquainted with how to use their cooker/canner first. Don't let this be
your first excursion into pressure brewing.  If you're just beginning,
try canning some jars of sweet wort for yeast starters until you're
comfortable with how your canner works. Be sure to taste one to see what
flavors develop.

When I p-cook the first runnings I actually fill the cooker directly,
leaving about a gallon of headspace. The riskiest part is during the
ramp to boiling since the release valve is open and a bubbling boil can
occur which could foul it.  I bring it to boiling carefully so as not to
bubble much, and let it vent steam to evacuate the air in the headspace.
This is standard practice for canning in general.  After about five
minutes of venting I throw the release and pressure begins to build
immediately.  Under pressure there is no bubbling and the risk of
fouling drops.  Also, since very little heat is needed for pressure
cooking the wort doesn't scorch even though it's in contact with the
heating surface.

Cooking grains is a different story.  They must be covered, either with
a piece of foil, or as I do it, in their own separate vessel with lid,
inside the canner.  This double boiler approach also guarantees that
there will be no scorching as could occur if they were placed directly
inside the cooker; my main reason for it.

The p-cooker I use is well built and maintained and has good safety
features.  I'm very comfortable using it as a tool and know how it
behaves in use, but I respect steam too much to get lax about it.  The
airspace evacuation stage is the one to pay the utmost attention to.
I'm not sure how kitchen pressure cookers with jiggling weights would
work, since during their intermittent hisses they let the pressure drop
a little, possibly enough to foam up which could lift hotbreak into the
vent.  If one uses these I'd recommend a generous headspace to start
with.

In an earlier post I'd stated that one would reduce b-glucans (gums)
with a peptidase rest.  Erase that, please.  Nail them with a rest
around 95-100F.

Regards,
Charles Rich (Seattle, USA)


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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:45:27 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Specific Gravity contribution of fruit HBD 2485

Brian asked about specific gravity from fruit:
There's a page at the Brewery in the library called Sugar and Acid Content in
Fruit which can be of some help.  When I copied it for my notebook more than a
year ago it was at http://alpha.rollanet.org/library/sugacid.html.  This has
doubtless changed with the Brewery move.  This gives percent sugar, you can back
calculate how much in the fruit you will add, and figure out what the
contribution will be.  

For instance, I made a mead with 11 lbs of blackberries at 8% sugar, in a 3
gallon batch, this is .9 lbs total sugar from the fruit, about .29 lbs/gal at 46
points/lb/gal (for sucrose), about 15 points contribution.  

Very approximate, but you can see it takes a lot of fruit to make much
contribution to gravity.  Most fruit sugars are also highly fermentable (mainly
sucrose and fructose), so won't leave much sweetness.  The end result is that
you are left with the flavor essence of the fruit with little or none of the
sweetness which is a lot of the perception we have of fruit flavors - if you
want fruit beer to taste like one perceives fruit to taste, you need to leave
non-fermentable dextrins,  ferment at very high gravities to leave some sugar
unfermented due to yeast "tiring out", or pasteurize before fermentation is
complete.  I've yet to succeed at making a fruit beer which tastes like fruit to
me - my attempts have tasted good, but not like what I think fruit tastes like. 
A little off the subject at the end, here, but hopefully still useful to you. 
BTW, the mead is delicious.
 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington

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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:17:22 -0500
From: "Verbal Blakey" <blakey at fgi.net>
Subject: RE: A-B American Hop Ale / Alcohol Question

Mark Rose wrote about A-B American Hop Ale:

> Was this a trial offering of a beer for marketing purposes?  Or, does
anyone
> know anything about this beer?

I believe this beer has been rolled out nationally, but it may only be
available on tap.  Information on all A-B specialty beers is available at
//www.hopnotes.com.

- ---------------

I have a question concerning calculating alcohol content.  I was reviewing
Kent Tracy's Alcohol and Calorie Calculation Table at
//realbeer.com/brewery/infobase/AlcCalTables.html, which lists % alcohol as
a function of two variables, OG and FG.  However, FG is usually measured
after fermentation is complete and before priming.  Wouldn't the yeast
produce additional alcohol as they worked on the priming sugar to carbonate
during bottling?  Seems like this should factor into the equation somehow. 
Or, is the table calculated assuming you will add 3/4 cup priming sugar per
5 gallons?

Thanks.
Mike Blakey

"Beer is the answer.  What was the question?"

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Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:13:19 +0000
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Kidney Stones, Gout and Stout - pt 2

Hyperuricemia - 
Why is beer a problem ?  

Barley is about 0.2% to 0.3% nucleic acid by weight, malt is about 0.18%
by weight.  Seeds have a lot of RNA/DNA. During malting and mashing the
DNA and RNA are largely depolymerised and released into solution. At
least 95% of the nucleic acids are soluabilized in mashing.  About 6% of
the nitrogen in wort is from the purines.   This means that 'normal'
wort might contain 15 to 20 mg/dL of purine bases and result in very
nearly the same level of uric acid added to urine - several times the
desirable level!!

To make matters worse, yeast are chock full of RNA and so any residual
yeast will add purines to the beer.

Here's the good news, yeast can consume the purine free bases (adenine
and gaunine)  in wort and so fermentation and careful removal of yeast
can decrease the purine levels of beer.  The bad news is that yeast
cannot consume the nucleosides of purine (the base with an sugar
attached).  The goal is clear, to brew a wort with minimal nucleosidic
purinals and then to get maximum consumption of the purinal free bases
by the yeast.  This should leave a beer with minimal purines.

'Malting and Brewing Science' states that "Highly kilned malts yield
worts containing a higher proportion of nucleosides [base-sugar] than
worts from moderately kilned malts, which are richer in free bases.  In
neither type of wort are nucleotides [sugar-base-phosphate] present.
Thus it is concluded that [...] nucleosidases may be inactivated in
kilning."  In other words all the base compounds are dephosphorylated
but the enzyme responsible for the producing free bases guanine and
adenine are denatured in highly kilned malts.  Highly kilned malts here
doesn't just mean dark malts.  Instead British 'pale ale' malts are
considered to be highly kilned because after drying at a lower
temperature they are 'kilned off' at a temperature of about 120C, about
20C higher than German and American lager or pale malts.

A 'solution' might be to always include a significant portion of low
kilned malt and  perform an extended 'nucleosidic' mash rest then
provide an optimal yeast growth environment.  The enzymes from the lager
malt portion can thus convert the nucleosides into free bases, and the
yeast can (hopefully) use up the free bases in the growth phase.  I need
to do some more research on the uptake of free bases by yeast - right
now I'm basing this on a paragraph in M&BS.

The identified enzyme involved in the conversion of purine nucleosides
to free bases is Adenosine Ribohydrolase(EC3.2.2.7), which is not
specific for adenosine,  but can operate on Gaunosine as well..  This
has been isolated from barley malt..  This enzyme has a pH optima around
5.0 and a temperature optima around 58C though a bit lower temperature
might be desirable for a mash rest.  There may be additional enzymes
involved as well such as EC3.2.2.1 which operates best at higher pH
(6-8)
and around 40-45C (non barley source).

- ---

Experimental Guidelines for an *Attempt* at Low Purine Brewing --

1/ Always include a good proportion of low kilned lager malt (say 25% to
50%).
2/ An unacidified mash-in rest around 40C *might* be useful.
3/ An acidified (normal mash acidity, pH 5.0 to 5.5) nucleosidase rest
at 55C to 58C,  perhaps 30min,  longer when a lower percentage of lager
malt is used.
4/ Provide a good yeast GROWTH environment so the yeast will use the
free bases.  This might include oxygenation, cold break inclusion and
underpitching.  This is somewhat counter to ideal brewing practice and
may be a flavor compromise.
5/ Remove yeast scrupulously. (Clarify well, possibly filter, force
carbonate rather than bottle condition)

- --

Some Guesstimated Guidelines on Choosing Lower Purine Beers --

1/ Avoid beers with a 'pale ale' base malt as opposed to 'pale' or
'lager' base malt.  Select beers made with large proportions of low
kilned malt.
1b/ Avoid beers made with all or mostly vienna or munich malt as the
nucleosidase survival is doubtful.
2/ Avoid hefe-weizen and other yeast-cloudy beers. Select clear and well
filtered beers,  or at least carefully decant bottle conditioned beers. 
Avoid drinking yeast.
3/ Select beers that have seen a protein rest as this also degrades
nucleosides.
4/ Lower SG beers start out with proportionately lower initial purine
levels in the wort.  Drink accordingly.

I suspect that all commercial beers of Great Britain and Ireland, and
their more authentic domestic clones are on the bad list. Marzens and
Hefe-weizens are on the bad list.  Pilseners, most other lagers (except
marzens), and domestic (US) ales are probably much better choices.

- --

Does any know the current quantitative methods for measuring the purine
bases, nucleoside and nucleotides?   Can anyone supply more info on the
utilization of free bases by brewing yeast (like is there a good means
to induce it, inhibitors)?

Steve Alexander


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Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:05:18 -0400
From: John Rezabek <rezabeks at alpha.wcoil.com>
Subject: Temperature for fermenting weizen

Steve Jackson expresses concern about fermenting a weizen at 68 deg F as
opposed to 64 as advised by maybe Ray Daniels. Are you aiming to make a
traditional Bavarian Hefe-Weizen? From what I gather, the higher
fermentation temperature will simply heighten the production of the
characteristic banana / clove flavors. If you're using the Wyeast 3068
Weihenstephan Weizen Yeast, or the Yeast Lab W51, I hardly think you can
go wrong. Even my starters come out tasting like a Paulaner. Well, a
warm flat Paulaner.

Last year Russell Mast <ramst at fnbc.com> wrote: "Use the Weihenstephan 
Wyeast or a similar pure-strain wheat yeast.  Ferment at lower 	temps
(40-50) to emphasize phenols, higher (50-70) to emphasize 	esters, but
expect plenty of both. (sp. 4-vinyl guiacol and 	isoamyl ester, aka
clove and banana.  4-vg doesn't taste like 	cloves to me, but that's a
side issue.)"

These yeasts ferment vigorously for me (pitching at least a 2 liter
starter) so I would expect even greater activity at 68 - 70 deg F.

John Rezabek
rezabeks at alpha.wcoil.com

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Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:44:08 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  plambic, 16 ounces

Home Brewers,

A couple of thing have lead me to think I should try a plambic beer soon,
so I had some questions.

First - I found some bottles of Chapeau Fraises Lambic (Brewery De
Troch Wambeek) on sale for half price.  They had raspberry,
strawberry, and peach left on the shelf, so I bought a few bottles of
each.  Believe it or not, they were marked with an expiration date that
had long past (like a year ago), so they were on sale.  Doesn?t this stuff
get better with age?.  Shouldn?t they have doubled the price instead of
cutting it in half?  Anyway, after tasting a few, I decided that it was the
beer I wanted to make.  My wife, who hates beer, even liked the stuff
(O.K., so I told her it was a new brand of wine cooler).  I would like to
know if anyone out there considers the Chapeau brand to be good or
bad, and why.  Since it is the only kind of fruit flavored lambic I have
tried, and I now have half a case of the stuff, It?s probably going to be
what I judge my plambic against.

My in-laws grow lots of raspberries.  Since it will be about this time next
year when I will be able to get some more (hopefully about five pounds),
I thought would start the plambic this month and then add the fresh
raspberries next harvest season.  Is this the right timing?

Last fall, my kettle was boiling away and I realized I was short on hops
(oops, should of checked the supply closet first).  Luckily, the local liquor
store just happen to have a display (meager as it was) of some basic
home brew supplies.  They had some pelletized Saaz hops which I
purchased and ran home to my awaiting kettle.  Unluckily, when I opened
the package they were rotten. We?re talking rancid, total limburger
cheese smell.  Anyway I didn?t use them, and like all good homebrewers
who never through anything away, I still have them.  Is this really what I
am supposed to use in my plambic?  Is there a point when hops get too
old? (It?s not like there?s maggots growing on them or anything, but they
sure smell bad)

The latest Zymurgy article suggests using Boon Gueuze for a starter
culture to make a plambic.  I checked my bottle store and they just
happen to stock this brand.  If anyone has tried to use Boon Gueuze for
a starter, please let me know how it turned out.  I am particularly
interested in whether I would have to add any pure cultures of bacteria
and or yeast in addition to the starter (I?ve heard this could make my
lambic one-dimensional because the organisms in the Boon Gueuze
bottle would be only the ?late to take hold bugs?) 

Someone wrote in the last Fridays HBD that 16 fluid ounces of water
does not equal a pound.  Well it?s pretty darn close.  Water weights about
8.32 pounds per gallon (at room temperature, at sea level, not during a
hurricane, blah, blah, blah).  Well that comes out to about 1.04 ounces
(that?s weight or force ounces) per fluid ounce (volume ounces).  So if
you have 16 fluid ounces of water, it weights about 1.04 pounds. 
Unless you have a calibrated digital scale ($100 +), you ain?t going to
notice that extra 4 one-hundredths of a pound.  And you thought English
units of measure don?t work out as neatly as the metric system.

Sorry for the bandwidth and TIA

Paul Niebergall
(pnieb at burnsmcd.com)


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Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 18:51:12 -0400
From: "Jacques Gauthier" <Jacquesg at CAM.ORG>
Subject: Potatoe wine and the dangers of wood alcool

Hello everyone,

While reading a potatoe wine recipe I came upon this part:

"Potatoes are not by themselves very suitable for winemaking
since they lack flavour and produce a portion of Wood 
Alcool. Potatoes are in fact better used in conjunction with 
other  ingredients...

The part that conserns me is the mention of wood alcohol.
When I was in Chemistry in College (over 10 years ago) I
recall my teacher mentionning that some chemists would
sometimes distill comestible alcohol from wood alcohol but
that the distillation had to be done at an exact temperature.

To do otherwise would put a quantity of wood alcohol
in the resulting alcohol which can cause blindness.  

Now, preferably, I wouldn't want to have any wood
alcohol in my wines.  Can someone tell me what causes
the potatoe to produce wood alcohol ?

Are there other fruits/vegetables/grains which have
a similar danger of producing wood alcohol ?  (I 
find the process of wine/beer making interesting 
however I don't want to lose my sight over it).

Jacques G.




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Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:41:15 +0200
From: Tom Krivec <Thomas.Krivec at grz08u.unileoben.ac.at>
Subject: How can I make a maltmill???

I have been in homebrewing for about two years now. 
I always did all grian batches, but always had problems with grinding the malt.
So I am thinking about making a maltmill by myself.
My question is: has anyone out there in brewing-space ever made a maltmill?
I could need any info about mills & how to construct them.

Please mail privat: Thomas.Krivec at unileoben.ac.at
 


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Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 10:44:31 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  HBD Delivery

Why doesn't the HBD get delivered on the weekends?   Saturday
morning I posted an artical and noticed there was 73 articals already "in
the que".  It's now Sunday and the current HBD is still stuck on Friday. 
I've noticed that this has been a problem for over three weekends know. 
What's the deal?  


Paul Niebergall



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Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:12:27 -0400
From: elsworth at connix.com (John D Elsworth)
Subject: overnight mash/Dave Line

Last week a question was posted about mash times, specifically why a
shorter mash time was not adequate if starch conversion had apparently
reached completion. I am interested in the answer to this, and suspect that
the answer maybe that some of the other reactions that are occurring are
necessary or desirable.
However, I would like to pose the opposite question to the collective, that
is: is it OK to mash much longer if it is convenient?  I am thinking of the
overnight mashes that Dave Line reported (in his books written in the 70's)
that he used for most of his brews.  With this schedule all reactions would
be complete, so what is the disadvantage, if it helps you by being able to
start a mash before work, or before bed, and finishing the other step
later.  Of course, the grain bed temperature will have dropped to about
room temperature (unless heat is applied during your absence), and this
will make it necessary to elevate the temperature of the sparge more than
usual.
I grew up and started brewing in England, and I remember that Dave Line's
books came as a bit of a revelation to most brewers, who had been extract
brewing and never imagined all grain mashing as something to be done at
home. One of my other books from that era (by W.H.T. Tayleur) prefaced a
brief description of how to mash at home by quoting Mr. Punch's famous
"advice to those about to marry - don't".
Another historical note that may be of interest, and the reason why Dave
Line in Britain was able to blaze this trail, is that home-brewing has
always been legal in the U.K., although from 1880-1963 home brewers were
required to take out an annual licence (for 1 pound) and record all mash,
sugar and cereals used.  These records were subject to scrutiny by
inspectors who charged a duty on the amount of beer that could have been
made from these starting ingredients.  This system was abolished in 1963
and caused an immediated increase in home-brewing.
John Elsworth
elsworth at connix.com



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Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:00:11 -0600 (CDT)
From: Jim Graham <jim at n5ial.gnt.com>
Subject: 5l mini-kegs:  summary on web site

First off, my apologies for the delay in getting this out.  First, I
wanted to make sure I'd gotten all the replies.  Then, I wanted to make
the summary something more...like a web page that, hopefully, will be a
good reference site some day.  Then I ended up so busy I didn't have much
time to do any of the above....  :-(

Anyways, it's past time to make the bits that are done available.  You
can get the summary of responses to my questions, as well as bits I
pulled from a few other issues of the HBD, at

      http://www.gnt.net/~n5ial/mini-kegs.html

Remember, this is *NOT FINISHED*.  If you find any typos, HTML errors
(I'm not an HTML guru!), etc., please let me know.  I'll try to work on
it more as I have more to add, and more time to polish it up.

Btw, if anyone doesn't have direct Internet access, and/or just doesn't
have a web browser, let me know and I can send you an e-mail copy.

Later,
   --jim

- --
73 DE N5IAL (/4)               MiSTie #49997         < Running Linux 2.0.21 >
jim at n5ial.gnt.net || j.graham at ieee.org  ICBM / Hurricane: 30.39735N 86.60439W
Jack:   DS B+Bd+O+W Y+G 1 Y L W C+ I+++ A++ S V+ F- Q++ P++ PA PL-- SC++++
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Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:06:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: Florida and the "b" word

Just in time to keep the thread from dying:
Vacationing in the Florida Keys last week I saw an item on the Miami news
report. It seems a man was stricken with Botulism and nearly died. No
apparent cause was discovered. Should we call the hospital and see if the man
is a homebrewer?
Anyone living in Florida who sees a follow up report might want to post a
source of the virus if one is mentioned.

My two cents worth.- While the chance of getting sick from botulism may be
less than the chance of winning the lotery, if you do infect yourself, your
chance of dying from it may exceed 20%. I don't do anything that has a one in
five chance of killing me.



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---