---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Citrussy Hop Tastes (smith57)
  freezer problems (Mark Tumarkin)
  Steinbrew Question ("C&S Peterson")
  Duvel (Kit Anderson)
  Cabbage smell in fermenter (Ian Smith)
  Ferulic acid (George J Fix)
  Hard Cider,rotten egg,modification,iodine ("David R. Burley")
  Preparing Yeast culture media ??? ("Anton Verhulst")
  Cider/Wine Making (Mark Witherspoon)
  TRUB IX OPEN (HOUCK KEITH A)
  hop bitterness rule-of-thumb (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
  cider (Mel D Irvin)
  Yeast Revival Question (Steve Altimari)
  Re: IPA (Sheena McGrath)
  Re: saccrification and iodine test (brian_dixon)
  Liability Protection for Homebrew Clubs ("John G. Petruna")
  Monster Starters (Charley Burns)
  Brass Fittings - Getting The Lead Out (Jeff Hewit)
  45 deg C rest and gummy adjuncts (John Rezabek)
  George is stoned ("John Heubel")
  PET bottles (DOUGWEISER)
  freezer heating control (Forrest Duddles)
  Competition Announcement (Jim Hinken)
  All-grain beginner questions (Doug Moyer)
  Oxygenation (David Whitwell)
  Looking for authentic Brett. yeast from Oak Barrel (Jean-Sebastien Morisset)
  Thought Experiment.,warm freezer,premature gelatinization ("David R. Burley")
  MCAB announcement ("Alan McKay")
  Re: Dry hopping in 2ndary, fermentation started again, IMBR? (Andrew E Howard)
  Hop Table (Adam=Fisher)


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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:14:25 -0700
From: smith57 at sprynet.com
Subject: Citrussy Hop Tastes

Greetings collective, it's been awhile.

Quick question on citrusy hop traits. I have found the overuse of Cascades 
to produce this effects in a lot of craft brew lately. In one of my own 
recent homebrews made with Chinook (boiling) and Liberty flavor/dry hop I 
found a similar citrussy effect that surprised me. I suspect the Liberty 
although I have not noticed it before with this hop. Any suggestions? The 
bags looked properly sealed and marked before use.
TIA.

 -jack in west point

smith57 at sprynet.com
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/smith57/

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:46:36 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: freezer problems

Hi All:

Eric writes:

>On the heels of Dave in Dallas's refrigerator problem, I 
>have an interesting freezer problem.  A couple of weeks ago, I 
>bought a used chest freezer, made by Montgomery Ward, that has 
>about 14 cubic feet of space.  The freezer appeared to work when
>I bought it (it had some frozen ice cube trays in it).  When I
>brought it home, I let it set for a week before I plugged it 
>in because I was waiting for my temperature controller.  When I 
>plugged it in to the temperature controller, I turned it down to
>20 degrees Fahrenheit to see if it would work.  No luck.  The 
>best temp it would get was 40 degrees Fahrenheit.  Next, I decided
>to unplug the controller.  The freezer would still only get down 
>to 40.  Then I tried putting some jugs of water in there to see if
>this would help (thermal mass, etc), but it would still not get
>below 40.  
>	Interestingly, frost develeloped near the top of the inside 
>rear wall of the freezer.  If I felt the walls of the freezer, 
>this was the only area that was _really_ cold.  Then I tried 
>putting a fan on the inside to see if this would spread the cool 
>air around, but this did not work.  In fact the inside temperature
>was higher, probably due to heat created by the fan.  
>	Luckily, the freezer is holding ale fermentation temps.  Does
>this sound like it is low on freon?  The way that the frost is 
>forming, it would seem to me like all of the cooling coils are 
>not working.  Why would it only get frost in one area?  I really
>hate to invest a lot more money on this freezer.  Any ideas will
>be greatly appreciated.  

I am not a refrigerator repairman (nor do I play one on tv) but your
problem sounds similar to one I recently had. We have a refrigerator with a
side by side freezer. It is relatively new (4+ years old), but recently I
went to get something from the freezer and found that it was partially
defrosted. Like yours, it still seemed to be working - but wasn't getting
cold enough. It was still under warranty so we called and had the repairman
come out. 

Luckily I've got a beer fridge, so we transferred everything into that one.
When we got it emptied, I could see that it was defrosting in the upper
part but at the bottom it was still frosty. The repairman determined that
it was the defrost thermostat that had failed.  I don't fully understand
the mechanics, but I believe it was going into a defrost cycle and not
coming out of it. The part was very cheap (unfortunately that part was no
longer covered under the limited warranty - of course)and looked easy to
change. Like many things, it wasn't difficult to change - just to know what
to change. Good luck. 

Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 12:36:09 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at classic.msn.com>
Subject: Steinbrew Question

HBDers -

Thanks to George, I too am curious to try a hot rock brew.  In reading some of 
the suggestions for technique and material, I was wondering if there could be 
some sort of substitute product for the rock.  Would some sort off stainless 
steel objects (nuts/bolts) or ceramic pieces (smash an old coffee cup?) be 
used instead?  Will such objects be able to take the 500 degee heat?  Clearly 
the object of hot-rocking your wort is to create some carmelized sugars on the 
surface of the object.  Perhaps these substitutes may offer some safer, more 
predictable results that rock (although there is some appeal to using rock, 
simply for historical significance).  Also, I wonder that if these objects 
were left in the boil for 60-90 minutes, wouldn't that be sufficient to 
dissolve the carmels sticking to their surfaces?.  I would prefer such a 
process so that I didn't have to store the carmelizing objects to later be 
tossed into the secondary.

It would be interesting to hear from those brave souls that have tried this 
type of brewing.  I would also like to hear more of the results of brews 
crated this way.

I was interested to hear the discussions on the German Mixed Ale category for 
George Fix and others.  As has been mentioned here in this forum, many of us 
have not had the pleasure to enjoy a true German Kolsch, but instead are 
limited to what select brewpubs offer.  This year I had what I thought was a 
decent representation of a Kolsch style beer, only to have it knocked heavily 
in the first round for being too bitter (1.051 OG, 28 IBUs, 5 SRM).  One judge 
even suggested that the beer be entered in the APA category!  Now this beer 
was a bit on the bitter side, but maybe I should have taken a page out of 
George's book, thrown in some carmel malt, and called it an alt. C'est la 
gare.  Glad to see that the categories are changed for 98 -- a have a few 
bottles of the Kolsch left; maybe I should enter them again and see if the 
score changes.  

I still find it frustrating that their appears to be no "authentic" commercial 
examples of Kolsch in the states.   

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md





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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:16:50 -0700
From: Kit Anderson <kitridge at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Duvel

I am going to try a Duvel clone. In Jackson's Great Beers of Belgium, he
describe the process as;

1. mash with 2 row to 1056 OG
2. divide batch in two and each gets a different yeast
3. some time after fermenting starts, add dextrose to bring OG to 1066
4. after finishing, add more dextrose to bring it to 1073 and bottle

Is there a reason NOT to add all the dextrose upon pitching?
Adding 7 points for bottling seems awfully high.

- -- 
Kit Anderson				ICQ# 2242257
Bath, Maine				Greetings From Northeast Texas
<kitridge at bigfoot.com>		http://web0.tiac.net/users/garhow/kit/


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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:43:47 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Subject: Cabbage smell in fermenter

Immediately after chilling my wort through my counter flow heat exchanger I
noticed a smell like cabbage in the carboy. Does anyone know what this could
be ? My grain bill was 13 lbs Hugh Baird 2 row pale, 1lb crystal and 1 lb
Munich. Hops were chinook and goldings. 

Cheers
Ian Smith
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com


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Date: Thu, 24 Sep 98 09:54:35 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Ferulic acid

I slightly disaree with Steve Alexander on the ferulic acid
issue. The yeast strains I prefer won't touch ferulic acid
with "ten foot pole". Moreover, I conjecture that (Weizens
aside) that phenolic tones found in beer has much more to
do with the presence of nonculture yeast than the mash
schedule used.

Cheers.

George Fix



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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:59:04 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hard Cider,rotten egg,modification,iodine

Brewsters:

Rick Gontarek asks how to avoid getting dry
 overcarbonated cider.  =


In the first place, a hydrometer makes a lousy
 measurement for the end of a fermentation
 in which you have so many things going on.
  Try Clinitest kit with pills(see past HBDs)
 to assure yourself that all of the reducible
 sugars are gone ( <1/4% on the test). =


In this case however, since you used
 unpasteurized, unpreserved cider and malic acid
 is a major apple acid, you likely have a malo-lactic
 fermentation going on which releases
 carbon dioxide and is causing the overcarbonation.
  Residual yeast in the cider will ferment out
 the sugar you add to prime. After the yeast fermentation,
 I suggest you keep the cider warm (70F)
 for a few weeks to allow the malo-lactic fermentation
 to continue, then bottle with lactose to make
 the cider sweet and an appropriate (less than beer)
 amount of priming sugar with an active yeast culture. =

- ------------------------------
Jon Bovard writes about a rotten egg smell =

in his beer.  In winemaking minute quantities
 ( a few ppm) of copper sulfate is added and
 the copper sulfide precipitated out which removes
 the smell.  Check out a winemaking book
 for directions and be aware that copper in
 too high quantities can be poisonous.
- ------------------------------ =

SteveA says:

>  For this reason SNR
>makes sense when comparing the degree of modification of different
>malts.

Sorry, but DeClerk says that resynthesis
 of proteins during malting makes SNR
 useless as an indicator of modification.
  And I suspect is especially useless in
 comparing modification between
 barley strains and above all different malts.

Throughout this discussion no one (me too) has
 offered modern data on the molecular weight
 of protein content during different lengths
 of malting as proof of contentions.  Also I find
 it equally disturbing that no one has focussed on
 glucans which contribute to a major degree
 (like75%) to the hardness of the kernel.
  It is easy for me to see that the fine-coarse
 grind test is a measure of the degradation
 (sort of modification indicator) of the barley glucans
 along with the proteins and that the continuing
 degradation of these glucans in spite of the
 re-synthesis of the proteins are the cause of the
 mechanical changes in the grain, leading
 to access for the enzymes to the starch
 during brewing. I can understand why these
 glucans were not the focus of our forebrewers,
 since they were difficult to analyse for with the
 then-current techniques ( like Kjeldahl nitrogen).
  We have no such excuse today and I
 suspect the information is sitting there.

Any information of glucans?
- ----------------------------------------------
Bret Morrow says:

>. I have had negative (not =

>blue) iodine tests on the clear liquid of simple infusion mashes =

>(148-155 oF) in 20 to 35 min over a number of years.  I have, however, =

>followed the advice of the late, great Dave Line and mashed for about =

>90-120 min.  My yields are respectable, about 30-32 points per pound.  =

>My questions are 1)    Why the heck can't I stop at 30-40 min after a =

>negative iodine test?  2) Is most the usable starch in the liquid?  =


The simple answer is you shouldn't stop
 after a brief hold at saccharification because
 although a lot of the usable starch is
 available for reaction, not all of it is.
  I suggest boiling the sample with the =

malt grains before the test, since I believe
 it is better to err on the side of getting
 all of the starch, than to not get all of it and
 risk a starch haze. I urge those who comment =

about the possibilty of "lost" starch not
 accessible to the enzymes skewing this result
 to actually try this test modification before
 commenting further.
- -----------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:26:15 -0400
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Preparing Yeast culture media ???


From: Jim Wallace:
>It seems when I prepare the agar and pour it into the tubes or petri dishes
>I get a LOT of condensation.  I prepare the media in a pressure cooker and
>leave the caps cracked open 1/4-1/2 a turn but the condensation never goes
>away...... What do others do to eliminate this problem.

I use pretty much the same technique.  I find that, over time,  most of the
condensation in the slants is absorbed by the agar to the point where it's
not a problem. A 2% agar mix works very well for me.  A lower agar percentage
might make the condensation worse.

- --Tony V

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:50:07 -0400
From: bveq97 at nestle.he.boeing.com (Mark Witherspoon)
Subject: Cider/Wine Making

Also Sprach Rick Gontarek:
	Trying to keep it slightly sweet and carbonate...
	
	OK, you will have a large problems:
		1. Using Cane sugar adds to the winey taste.
		2. Fermenting dry but adding more sugar to
			bottle adds to the winey taste.
		3. Not using wine yeast.
		
	1. Dont use cane sugar unless you do want wine.
	2 & 3.  Wine yeast tolerate higher sugar/ETOH levels,
	you will need to kill them off.  Champane yeast will
	go dormant after all the sugar is gone.  Then add more
	sugar to carbonate and IT will wake up.  But almost
	all Champane is dry or brute dry.  
	
	To make it sweet is to add so much sugar that it will
	die of ETOH poisoning (wine/Champane will die out 
	around 18-20%).  Add enough  sugar (corn to keep from
	winey taste) to bring your Plato values up to 16%. 
	Then add yeast, ferment.  Add more sugar carbonate and
	leftovers to keep it sweet.
	OR
	Kill off the yeast will Potassium Sorbate, add more sugar,
	carbonate in a keg and bottle from there.
	
	
	I have made wine for several years now.  This is the
	way that most major winery's make Champane.  The old
	way of adding sugar back to naturally carbonate is
	very rare.
	
	
	Mark Witherspoon
	
		

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:51:42 +0000 (GMT)
From: HOUCK KEITH A <HOUCK_KEITH_A at LILLY.COM>
Subject: TRUB IX OPEN

Hear yea, hear yea:  the TRiangle's Unabashed HomeBrewers (TRUB) announces 
the 9th annual TRUB OPEN,  Saturday, November 1, 1997 at Steve and Clark's 
Brewpub in Durham, NC. 

This AHA-sanctioned event typically draws 200-250 entries with prizes 
galore including the opportunity for BOS winner to brew a batch at Steve 
and Clark's brewpub. All AHA categories will be accepted though there are 
no awards for sake. In addition, the "Just Good Beer" category returns for 
an encore performance. Details for competition entry can be obtained from 
the TRUB IX OPEN web site at "http://www.mindspring.com/~trub9/", or by 
e-mailing "trub9 at mindspring.com",  the Competition Director Gary Clayton 
(garyclayton at mindspring.com) or Registrar Bill Mackenzie 
(dedpetvet at aol.com).

Judges and stewards are cordially invited for a weekend of conviviality 
highlighted by the infamous Halloween party Saturday night featuring at 
least 10 kegs of premium homebrew graciously provided by Andy Kagan and 
Keith Klemp. Saturday's competition will include morning and afternoon 
judging sessions as well as continental breakfast and lunch. Limited 
lodging opportunities may be available for out-of-town judges. BJCP points 
awarded as well as the usual honorarium. Interested judges/stewards, please 
contact Director of Judging Keith Houck (hak at lilly.com) (919-419-3714).


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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:33:45 -0500
From: layton at sc45.dseg.ti.com (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
Subject: hop bitterness rule-of-thumb

Danny Boy wrote:

>Speaking as a
>homebrewer who would dream of a 122 degree rest, and who rarely checks
>S.G., I'd simply like to know *about* how much to fudge things so an old
>favorite extract/partial boil recipe doesn't totally knock my socks off
>with hoppiness when I attempt an all-grain/full boil version.

I checked a couple of entry level homebrewing books on my shelf for recipes
which might give some kind of answer to this question. What I looked for
were partial boil and full boil recipes of the same beer style in the same
book. What I found was that the full boil recipes used about 25% less 
bittering hops than the partial boil recipes, on average, for the same beer
style. I think this is a reasonable "rule of thumb".

>Whatever happened to seat o' the pants brewing, anyway?

It is alive and well, but IMO these brewers should expect occasional 
surprises (both good and bad) in how their beer turns out. Myself, I always
to do a little math and come up with an IBU prediction for every recipe
I brew. Surprises in the hop bittering department are something I prefer
to avoid. I want every batch I brew to come out as good as I can make it.

Try the online hop bitterness calculator at Glen Tinseth's Hop Page
(http://realbeer.com/hops/). Look to the AHA or BJCP style guidelines for
IBU ranges in particular beer styles. What could be easier?

Jim Layton (Howe, TX)

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:59:31 -0400
From: melathome at juno.com (Mel D Irvin)
Subject: cider

>Last year, I wanted a hard cider with a bit more sweetness, with less
>winey characteristics. So, I used 2.5 gallond unpasteurized cider, 2 lb.

SNIP

I do 2 batches every fall.  5 gallons of cider and 4-5 lbs honey in each,
one with champagne yeast and one with either a wine or ale yeast,
depending on the mood.   I leave in primary for 2-3 weeks, and then
secondary for another 2-3 before bottling.  Never have a problem with
bottle rockets.  I usually try to have it ready by thanksgiving and take
a six-pack with me whenever we go to a gathering between then and the
holidays.  This year I am going to try adding a cinnamon stick to one of
the batches.

Hope this helps,

Mel in Upstate NY

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:22:22 -0700
From: Steve Altimari <vllybrew at inreach.com>
Subject: Yeast Revival Question

Does anyone remember an article a few years back about an old shipwreck
that someone rescued some bottles of Bass Ale from and revived the
yeast?  If so, or if you have information on yeast revival (not the 
religious variety) please drop me a line.

Thanks,

Steve Altimari
vllybrew at inreach.com

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:50:14 -0700
From: Sheena McGrath <sheena at gte.net>
Subject: Re: IPA

Dear Homebrew Collective:
I just had to respond to the IPA thread. When I lived in England
(1993-7) I found that most IPAs aren't worthy of the name and are drunk
by people who don't really apprecicate beer. Having said this, there are
exceptions, and the gentleman who went to GBBF probably only had good
ones. I am hoping that since Whitbread made Fuggles IPA other breweries
are going to start reviving this style and make proper beers. It's not
so much that the English appreciate a different kind of IPA, but that
it's what the breweries give them. Don't assume that because it's
English it must be good.
Sheena

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 14:13:54 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: saccrification and iodine test

[snip]
>forum as well as post a question or three. I have had negative (not 
>blue) iodine tests on the clear liquid of simple infusion mashes 
>(148-155 oF) in 20 to 35 min over a number of years.  I have, however, 
>followed the advice of the late, great Dave Line and mashed for about 
>90-120 min.  My yields are respectable, about 30-32 points per pound.  
>My questions are 1)     Why the heck can't I stop at 30-40 min after a 
>negative iodine test?  2) Is most the usable starch in the liquid?  3) 
>Are there any other desirable changes other than saccrification that 
>occur during a simple infusion mash?  

1) The reason you shouldn't ultimately rely on the iodine test is
because it doesn't really test for what you want to know.  Huhh?  What
you want to know is whether or not all the available and convertable
starches have converted to a) maltose (fermentable), b) maltotriose
(fermentable by some beer yeasts), and c) dextrins (unfermentable).  If
complete conversion to one of these three categories has not taken
place, then two things are at stake, the first of which is not important
IMHO: a) you haven't gotten the highest yield out of your grist, and b)
residual starches exist that can cause haze in your beer.  With all that
said, then lets ask what the iodine test tests for?  Yes, iodine turns
blue (red, or purple) in the presence of starch.  Yes, it remains the
same brown color when the 3 sugar types that I mentioned above exist and
nothing else.  The issue is that there are higher-order dextrins and
simple starches that do NOT cause the iodine to turn color, thereby
indicating their presence.  The only way to make sure that you've
converted these middle-weights is to make sure your mash pH is correct,
your mash temperature is correct, your mash thickness is correct, enough
enzymes exist to do the conversion, AND you allow the mash to rest at
saccharification temperatures long enough.  Hence the disdain by some
expert brewers concerning the iodine test, and the consistent
recommendation of a 60 minute (or longer) sacc-rest in spite of the fact
that the iodine test indicates complete conversion after only half an
hour.  On the other hand, personal experience, and the experience of
others, has shown that you can produce clear beer with a nice head and
good flavor characteristics with a shorter sacc-rest, say 35-45 minutes
or so.  But, what's so hard about waiting an additional 20-30 minutes?
I like to take the chance to get the rest of the equipment ready with no
hurry, and let the sacc-rest go as long as it takes me to get everything
done: 60 - 90 minutes is typical, and just right.  The lesson is that
you can do what you want, but do it knowingly, considering the pro's and
con's like you do with the rest of the brewing process.

>If there are no other important reactions in a simple infusion mash, I 
>think the best "test" of the iodine test is to do 2 mashes with 
>identical parameters changing only the time (e.g. 30 and 90 min) and 
>compare the yields.  Anyone tried this?

This would not necessarily show you what you want because the
middle-weight dextrins and simple starches mentioned above are soluble
and will end up in your wort either way, giving you a similar SG to what
you'd see in a wort made from a fully converted mash and the impression
of adequate yield.  You _should_ do this experiment, but do it with a
split recipe and a split yeast starter, fermenting the beers in exactly
the same way etc.  When you are done, you can compare final gravities,
clarity, head formation and retention, flavor etc. to see if the mashing
schedules made that much of a difference.  Who knows?  I haven't read
anything on that particular experiment, so it'd be interesting to see.
(When you're done, post the results here, and write up an article for
BrewingTechniques ... they're paying $50-200 for articles now, depending
on how many words, graphics, photos, etc. are provided and how much work
_they_ need to do to get the article ready to publish).

Good luck, Bret!
Brian


 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway.

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:23:38 -0400
From: "John G. Petruna" <jpesquire at penn.com>
Subject: Liability Protection for Homebrew Clubs

As an attorney, I think I can shed some light on the usefulness or
effectiveness of forming a non-profit organization to waive liability among
members of a homebrew club.  I assume no liability for your reliance on this
information.  The truly worried or panicky among you are encouraged to print
out this message and review it with the local attorney of your choice.

At least as far as Pennsylvania law is concerned (and I believe it is
typical), the formation of an association or non-profit organization will
have no effect on your liability for damages to third parties, and is not
necessary for protection among members.  Further, a corporation would likely
not provide any protection against liability (because a court would likely
"pierce the corporate veil" of limited liability once it was able to
ascertain that the corporation was a sham, having no ongoing business
purpose and no operating capital; doubly true where homebrew is illegal!).
Don't forget the likelihood or certainty that individual members would also
be named as defendants, bypassing the corporate form altogether.

One can draft a simple indemnification agreement without a corporate form,
but it would only protect against the damages of other members, not of
injured third parties.  A simple example will illustrate this:  A, B and C
sign an agreement stating that each will indemnify and hold harmless each of
the others for damages arising out of the operation of a homebrew club
(actual language is more detailed).  At each meeting, they diligently sample
and enjoy several fine-quality homebrews.  After the meeting, A is already
at home and B arranges for a taxi ride, while C, who is hammered, strikes D
with his car on the way home (also injuring himself).  When the lawsuits are
filed (and they will be filed...), the agreement will probably protect A and
B from owing any damages to C, but D was not a party to the agreement and
cannot be bound by it.  Thus D COULD sue A, B and C.

On the other hand, in Pennsylvania, although D could sue A or B, she
probably would not win because, to my knowledge, private hosts in Penna.
have not yet been found liable for the actions of their drunken guests.
Other states can and do vary on this last point, which sometimes is even
treated statutorily.

If, however, you are worried about damages for injuries to your fellow
homebrewers (exploding bottles?  bits of broken hydrometer in the beer?
botulism? methanol?), an indemnity agreement would be helpful to protect you
from their suits.  But if this is your concern, maybe you should stick to
that fancy, storebought beer.  ;)

(Of course, to find out the specific rules in your state, get your own
attorney.  Regarding this message, I understand and fully expect that other
attorneys in the collective will add to--or perhaps correct (!?!)--this
information as they see fit.  This is welcomed.)

The solution:  as with all uses of alcohol, be smart!  Maybe the
AHA-Papazian slogan should be amended to read:
"Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew!  Just don't be an idiot."

JP in PA

Brewer of tangy, diacetyl-laden, opaque, chlorophenol-saturated beverages
since late July.

My slogan:  "It's the lactobacillius acidophilus that makes it tangy!"





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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:28:43 -0700
From: Charley Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Monster Starters

In response to Steve A.'s post regarding creating larger starters (8 oz
of slurry in 1 quart - wow!).

Last night was week 5 of our BJCP study group and the tech topic of the
night was yeast. David Brattstrom (already BJCP certified) joined us
again last night and he related a theory about this (starters) that
someone at UC Davis (a friend of his) is working on. I think he said it
was a master's thesis or doctoral dissertation.

Anyway, the gist of this theory is that when we are stepping up
starters, its common practice to take them to high krausen and
immediately feed them more wort, generating almost instant growth. This
can go on for several cycles. This person's (name unknown) theory is
that when we do this, we are 1)"training" the yeast to go for the the
simplest sugars and ignore the more difficult to metabolize, and 2) we
aren't giving they yeast any time to build strength in the cell walls.
The results could be yeast that a) can't handle the more complex sugars
and b) that die young resulting in "stuck" fermentation.

This guy's recommendation is to let the yeast fully ferment the starter
including the yeast going to dormancy. Its on the way to dormancy that
the yeast rebuild their strength in their cell walls which just makes
them that much stronger when reawakened and re-oxygenated later. It also
lets them work on the tougher sugars so they don't get too lazy.

Sounds like a good theory, probably a bugger to emperically test. I'm
sure I've oversimplified and maybe even screwed it up completely but it
sounds plausible to me. I personally never seem to catch my starters at
high krausen (except once) so I don't think I've ever tested this
theory.

FWIW 
Charley (learning all about yeast, porters and stouts) in N. Cal.

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:47:49 -0400
From: Jeff Hewit <jhewit at erols.com>
Subject: Brass Fittings - Getting The Lead Out

I have seen in a few places (including here, I think) discussion about
making sure no lead from brass valves and other plumbing items gets into our
beer.  The recommended fix is to soak brass items in a 2:1 mixture of
vinegar and peroxide.  I've tried this.  My ball valve, nipples, and other
various brass fittings turned a nice soft buttery gold, and turned the
solution blue.  I guess this worked in getting the lead out.  However, it's
been more years than I care to admit since I paid serious attention to
chemical reactions, so I have no idea what happenned.  I'm sure there are
more than a few of you who can describe what reaction took place.

Thanks,

Jeff Hewit
Midlothian, VA


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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:09:45 -0400
From: John Rezabek <rezabeks at alpha.wcoil.com>
Subject: 45 deg C rest and gummy adjuncts

Steve Alexander writes:

> The mash-in at 40C of the Fix regime is awfully close to the ferulic
> acid generating optima temp. 

What to do . . . I'm all ready to try a 115 F rest for a recipe that
includes a fair amount of flaked rye (between 10 & 15 percent of the
total grist). This proportion of rye has "caused" stuck sparges for me 2
out of 5 times. Supposedly 115 F (46 C) is a really good temperature for
beta-glucanase and her relations, which might reduce the gums and make
for smoother sparging.

Although I occasionally ferment these rye worts with a traditional
hefe-weizen yeast (e.g. Yeast Lab W51) I like to use a more normal ale
yeast occasionally, like Wyeast 1007 or 1056. But I sure don't want
those scary off-flavor precursors either . . . any thoughts?

John Rezabek
rezabeks at alpha.wcoil.com

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:32:53 -0500
From: "John Heubel" <jlheubel at wf.net>
Subject: George is stoned

George de Piro wrote:
	 "For some reason, I can't get the idea of making a Steinbier out of my 
    head.  Does anybody out there have any ideas about what types of rocks 
     to use, how hot to heat them, how to heat them, how to clean them, 
     etc.?
     
     Also, are there special safety concerns?  I would guess that dropping 
     a few 500F rocks into the kettle might cause a bit of an eruption, no?
     
     Also, any ideas on how to move the hot rocks?  I guess if they are 
     small enough, I could just use kitchen tongs, but would using many 
     small rocks present too much surface area for caramelization?"

The Winter 92  Zymurgy cover story was about Steinbier and I too have been
stoned for some time trying to get my hands on the correct rocks. Here's
some of the info I've found out:

The article (or a follow up) mentions that Graywacke is the rock du jour at
Rauchenfels. It is also known as "dirty sandstone" according to Britannica.
 One of the specimens( Ordovician lithic wacke) pictured comes from Austin
Glen, NY if that's nearby George.  Anywho, the graywacke expands during
heating causing an even greater surface area for the wort to caramelize on
and into.

The most recent BT also has a short blurb on it and the Brimstone Brewery
(Baltimore MD) uses diabase which is a volcanic stone sometimes associated
with granite (which can also be used).  The Zymurgy authors used quartzite.
and had good results.  Bottom line: find some rocks that can take some
serious heat without fracturing when dipped into relatively cool (near
boiling) wort.

Some info on Rauchenfels Steinbiere:
	O.G. 1.045       0.64# of stones per gallon of wort  

The Z authors used  1/2oz German Northern Brewer plugs for bittering and
1/2oz Tettnang (not to be confused with Fuggle) 20 min later.  They
finished with 3/4 oz Tett after 40 min more.  Your best Altbier recipe
should be a good start.  Wyeast 1338 European was used for historical
(pre-lager) purposes, though it would also go well with a lager yeast it
seems.  

They heated the rocks in a cinder-block fire chamber, fire being of oak
wood (I plan on using Apricot wood from some tree branches I need to get
rid of) and they had a fan blowing on it to keep it stoked.  They did give
them an acid batch after a good scrubbing, but didn't mention strength or
acid type.  The rocks were placed in a tea strainer ( though I imagine one
of those brass hanging kitchen baskets would work fine) and dunked into the
wort.  Once removed, they were cooled and then wrapped in foil and bagged
in a freezer to await secondary.  

Rocks need to fit in the fermenter ( I plan on secondary in a corny, so
fist size should do) and remember to leave a little head space for the
renewed ferment.

Hope this helps.  If the batch goes well, send me some ;o).

John Heubel
Wichita Falls, TX

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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:53:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: DOUGWEISER at aol.com
Subject: PET bottles

HBD collective:
I have a question regarding the use of PET bottles for long term storage of
homebrew. I know that the general concensus is that these "soda bottles" are
not suitable for storage for more than a few weeks or months at best. I
recently discovered several bottles of homebrew which have been in PET
bottles for 18 months. This beer was never carbonated, but rather it was put
into the PET bottles from the fermenter, the bottle was squeezed to bring the
liquid to the top and eliminate any air space, and capped in this squished
position. Now, after 18 months, the bottles are still squished  the same
amount. If oxygen had migrated through the plastic as is supposed to happen,
wouldn't the bottles have expanded to their original shape?  I'm  curious
whether this may indicate that PET bottles may not be as bad as everone seems
to think. Anyone know whether the bottles would have expanded if oxygen had
migrated inside? I plan to carbonate a bottle soon, to taste it for
oxidation.
TIA, Doug in Winnetka, CA

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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:39:30 -0400
From: Forrest Duddles <duddles at Imbecile.kzoo.edu>
Subject: freezer heating control

Hi folks,

 Ben O'Connor asked about winter heating control for a chest freezer.

 The Johnson A19 controllers commonly used by home brewers have 3 terminals
 - Common, Close on rise, and Open on rise. For cooling control the common
and close on rise terminals are used. For heating. disconnect the wire from
the close on rise terminal and attach it to the open on rise terminal then
set the controller for the desired temperature.

 The choice of heat source is up to you. I've seen many types of small
heaters, light bulbs, etc used. Start small. It doesn't take much of a heat
source to maintain 40-70 degrees in a freezer. I use an old coffee maker
hot plate element (it doesn't emit light).

 I use a Ranco digital controller which is meant as a replacement for the
Johnson A19. It is easily adjustable from -20 to 150 degF and has an
accurate differential adjustment. It can also be wired to both cooling and
heat sources and use either as needed to achieve setpoint. I found mine at
a refrigeration parts supplier for about $40.

Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles   duddles at Imbecile.kzoo.edu


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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:12:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Hinken <jhinken at accessone.com>
Subject: Competition Announcement

The Brews Brothers, Seattle's oldest homebrewing club announces the
Novembeerfest 1997 homebrewing competition.  The competition will be held
Saturday, November 1, at the Elysian Brewing Company, 1511 Seventh Ave,
Seattle, WA.  

Started in 1991, Novembeerfest has grown from a local competition to the
most respected competition in the Pacific Northwest.  This year's
competition features something new - Fame! The Brews Brothers have arranged
for the following respected breweries and brewpubs to produce  four or five
of the top scoring beers for commercial release to the public! The breweries
are:

Elysian Brewing Co. - Seattle, Washington
La Conner Brewing Co. - La Conner, Washington*
Twin Rivers Brewing - Monroe, Washington
Flying Pig Brewpub - Everett, Washington
 * Still in planning phase

We are still in the planning stages with the 5th, hopefully soon to be
announced brewery.  Winning beers to be brewed are subject to the approval
and system limitations of the breweries. 

Entries will be accepted from all AHA style catagories including cider and
mead.  Three bottles are required for entry and the entry fee is U.S.$5. The
standard AHA entry form and bottle lables may be used or contact Rob Nelson
at the number below and entry forms will be faxed to you.  Entry deadline is
October 29, 1997.  Late entries will be received until 5:00 PM on Friday,
Oct. 31, with a  late entry fee of U.S. $10.  Entries may be shipped to 

Jim Hinken
24211 4th Place West
Bothell, WA.  98021
(425) 483-9324

Visit our web site at http://www.brewsbrothers.org.

Interested Judges may contact Rob at the address below or me at
jhinken at accessone.com.
 

For entry forms or more information, contact:
Brother Rob Nelson
Post Office Box 1016
Duvall, WA  98019-1016
Phone: (425) 788-0271
Fax: (425) 788-0271 (self detecting machine)
E-mail: Nelson at witty.com







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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:05:28 -0400
From: Doug Moyer <moyer-de at salem.ge.com>
Subject: All-grain beginner questions

Dearest Digest,
	A few relatively minor questions:

(1) In the latest Brewing Techniques, they discuss building a manifold
for a cooler-type mash tun and say to put the slots in the manifold
facing up. Why? Wouldn't you be able to get more of the last runnings if
the slots were down? (I know, it's only a couple of ounces, but I worked
long & hard to get those ounces!)

(2) When you are recirculating the wort for clarity, does it matter how
fast you run off the liquid? With my setup, I can probably get a gal/min
with the valve wide open. Would that be a bad idea?

TIA,
Doug Moyer
Big Lick Brewing Collective
"Big Lick - The best way to go down the drain!"

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:52:59 -0700
From: dwhitwell at foxcomm.net (David Whitwell)
Subject: Oxygenation

I am preparing to brew a Belgian Strong Ale using Wyeast of the same name. 
I want a low terminal gravity for a drier finish, and have been told that
using oxygen to aerate my wort can help achieve this.  As I don't have an
oxygen bottle, I am considering borrowing the bottle from an
oxygen/acetelyne welding set.  Does anyone know if this is "safe" to do
with regards to impurities in the oxygen/bottle/hoses?
Brew On!
David Whitwell
Half-Whit Brewing, Tacoma, Washington
"Because Half the Whit's Brew, and Half the Whit's Don't"

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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:43:14 -0400
From: Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at qc.bell.ca>
Subject: Looking for authentic Brett. yeast from Oak Barrel

I'm looking for a Brett. yeast isolated by Brian Nummer, of Head Start
Brewing Cultures, from an old Oak Barrel. Does anyone have this yeast in
their ranch, or know how I can contact Brian Nummer? A similar authentic
Brett. yeast would also be acceptable.

Thank you,
js.
- --
Jean-Sebastien Morisset <mailto:jsmoriss at qc.bell.ca>
Unix Administrator, Bell Sygma Telecom. Solutions

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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:47:59 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Thought Experiment.,warm freezer,premature gelatinization

Brewsters:

Ian Wilson's home experiment to evaluate the difference in ion content in=

hot and cold water sources by measuring the specific gravity apparently
only made it out of his brain and never to the table for actual
application.  Won't work.  We are talking p.p.m.of ions here and the
smallest division on most normal hydrometers is in the p.p.t.

One thought is to try doing a conductivity type of test to evaluate the i=
on
content comparatively, even though accurate evaluation of the ion content=

this way is difficult with non-professional gear.  Perhaps go to a water
evaluation lab with your samples.  =

- -----------------------------------
Ben Oconnor wants to keep his brewing freezer in the garage and wonders h=
ow
to keep his beer from freezing there in the winter.  Put a small heater(
100 watt lightbulb??) in it and let the temperature controller on the
freezer which you now use keep it at the appropriate temperature level.
- -----------------------------------
George Fix offers an increase in the refractive index as evidence that
barley starch gelatinizes at a much lower temperature nowadays than it us=
ed
to, by saying:

  1. Liquefaction/beta-glucan rest at 38-42C - 30 mins. -
    during this period there was a sharp increase in mash
    SG as measured by a refractometer.

I suspect what you see here is just what you should be seeing - namely th=
e
high MW glucans are being solubilized by the glucanase and this is leadin=
g
to the increase in the refractive index of the wort as they dissolve and
this is not an indication  of premature solubilization of the starch.
Barley starch gelatinization temperatures are derived from highly modifie=
d
British Pale malts way back in the early days of scientific brewing as fa=
r
as I know.

To complete the experiment two more results are necessary.  Mash in at 40=
C
and 10 minute rise to 60C and a mash in at 60C both of which follow the
same upper temperature scheme as the original.
- -----------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:38:40 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: MCAB announcement


Louis K Bonham writes :

" 8-10 major regional
homebrew competitions (selected on the basis of size, prestige,
and geographic distribution) will be selected shortly as MCAB
Qualifying Events"

Are any of these going to be in Canada?

 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
Nortel Enterprise Networks
Norstar / Companion / Monterey Operations
PC Support Prime


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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:54:12 EDT
From: aehoward at juno.com (Andrew E Howard)
Subject: Re: Dry hopping in 2ndary, fermentation started again, IMBR?

It is possible that you beer hadn't actually finished fermenting and the
action of racking stirred it up enough to get the fermentation going
again.  What is probably more likely (in my experience) is that the hop
pellets have provided nucleation points for some remaining dissolved CO2.
 Thus, what looks like renewed fermentation could actually just be
already-present CO2 leaving the beer.

I could be wrong...

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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 11:05:55 EDT
From: Adam=Fisher%SDL%MSDBED at vines.msd.ray.com
Subject: Hop Table

Hello All,

	A several month's ago someone posted a Hop Table that was spread 
out across a few HBDs.  I want to add this to a Web Page but can't remember 
the name of the person who sent it.  Since I want to give proper credit I was 
looking for the person who sent it out.  Can anyone help me?

Adam Fisher
*********************************************************
 "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep 
		like my Grandfather,
	Not screaming like his passengers."

		- ?????????
*********************************************************

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---