---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Science in Brewing ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  Hop plugs in a cask? (Jay Reeves)
  Millenium Ale (00nelephart)
  Pre-Gelatinized Grains (Darrell)
  Rogue Pacman yeast (Jeff)
  Brew Pub Venture (00nelephart)
  Aluminum Fermenters ("Brendan T. Kelly")
  Home brewing really is simple (really) (Jeff Sturman)
  Toasting Grains (RitchRon)
  RE: Holiday Ale Recipe ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Re: Posts by Aaron A Sepanski and Joe Rolfe ("Michael Kowalczyk")
  Address Correction (Jim Hinken)
  MAJOR BEER CONTEST ("TELEMUNDONET")
  Old Recipes (Robert Pastor)
  Drilling Refrigerators (Forrest Duddles)
  Jeff Sturman's "statistics" (Some Guy)
  keep that geeky science stuff coming (Mark Tumarkin)
  mutant beer (Jim Larsen)
  EBC to SRM conversion. ("Braam Greyling")
  Snake Oil and Water Mix (A. J. deLange)
  CIDER PRODUCTION AND SALE (Chris Schmidt)
  lagering with 2112 (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Drilling holes in refrigerator (Dennis J. Templeton)
  Ipswich Ale Yeast (bob mccowan)
  HDB & Beer Geeks - a Newbie's view ("Ernst, Joseph G.")
  When to add DAP (Paul Henning)
  Re: Science in Brewing (Dave Johnson)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:52:22 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Science in Brewing

Aaron A Sepanski wrote in HBD 2517 (in part):
<SNIP>
I guess my main point here is how much science is necessary?  I work in a
brewery myself.  One of my colleagues is an AHA judge and has over 40
years of brewing experience.  His beer has won trophies throughout the
country.  I feel fortunate to have worked with him.  Why I mention him is
because he doesn't know a thing about the science of brewing.

Before I turn this into a bashing, I want to say that I am with you.  I
think that brewing is a science.  But my point is we shouldn't be cramming
it down people throats and making them feel like peons because they have
no formal scientific training.
<SNIP>
 and Joe Rolfe wrote (in part) in HBD 2518:
<SNIP>
 regards to Aarrons comments i agree -there are alot of you
out there that "think" your getting very scientific with
regards to brewing (granted some of you are)
most commercial brewers dont get that scientific, although 
they probably should....actually this is one reason i left the 
commercial brewing biz after 5 years. and actually that is one of
the reasons i dont venture into this forum much anymore, alot of you
take the hobby far to seriously...but are only scratching the surface.
<SNIP>

I'd like to comment that one of the things I like as a relative newcomer to
homebrewing in general and HBD in particular is the vastly varying views one can
see here, with a low level of acrimony.   I've yet to see anyone forced to read
anything.  The highly technical stuff can get intimidating, but all one has to
do is scroll down... and I love having opinions expressed from all the different
disciplines from chemistry to law to brewing to microbiology, etc, etc.  

In recent months (my time of observation) I've not seen anyone belittled because
they had no formal scientific training.  Some of the discussions have been
heated (botulism and 122 vs 135 rests come to mind) but that seems to me more
like heated peer review than intimidation.  As long as personal attacks are left
out it's good to hear counter arguments, so we as homebrewers can make our own
judgements as to how serious and/or scientific to be about brewing our own beer
and what tools we want to use.  

Where else can you read a discussion of possible errata in a standard brewing
text, ferulic acid production and significance as well as questions and answers
about how to filter out cold break, or good (but old) brewing jokes?  Just my
$.02 worth.

 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington

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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:38:33
From: Jay Reeves <jay at or.com>
Subject: Hop plugs in a cask?

Can anyone tell me (no fair guessing) a normal
procedure for dryhopping a cask?  What I want
to know, is it normal to just drop the intact plug
into the cask then bung it, or do they break
it up prior to putting it in the cask?  I'm
concerned that if I drop an intact plug in, it
may not fully separate.

The problem I had with using loose, whole hops
was that as soon as the hops hit the beer, it
gave a nucleation site for the CO2 and....foam
city before I could get all of the hops in and
the shive hammered home.


			-Jay Reeves
			Huntsville, Alabama
                                
NOTE: Any replies need to manually change
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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:44:41 -0500 (EST)
From: 00nelephart at bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Millenium Ale

I was in a local liquor store the other day, and the discussion I had with the
worker there was about an interesting product.  It is called Millenium Ale.
As explained, this ale is, supposedly, aging in the bottle, and is to be 
consumed on the night of the new millenuim.  The first question is, which 
millenium are the makers refering to, which is a whole other can of worms.  
But, not as to start a non-homebrewing related discussion of the history of 
the calandar, is this a marketing gimmik, or could it be a real product.  It
has a wax/cork seal, and is bottled in a champange bottle with a very
attractive container.  I thought that ale's
are one of the faster maturing brews.  Is it possible that this stuff would
taste anything like it is supposed to, in that many years?  The price is $21 per
unit.
One final note, the clerk also explained, "There were only 4000 units shipped 
to the U.S., and we are able to receive 8 units total, 4 this month, and 4 
next month."  Is this also more bull?

Noel Lephart
NLephart at symex.com
 

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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:12:00 -0600
From: Darrell <darrell at montrose.net>
Subject: Pre-Gelatinized Grains

Dear collective,

I have a bag of flaked barley, and a bag of flaked oats (25 lbs. each).
Both say "pre-gelatinized".  The oats I got from a brewery, the barley I
just bought.

Don't these grains have to go through gelatinization prior to mashing?
I thought that rolling (or flaking?) created the necessary heat to
gelatinize.  Now I'm all screwed up.  Do I have to boil these grains
prior to mashing?

"Help me mister wizaaaaaaaaard!..."
- --
Darrell Garton
Montrose, CO



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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:18:54 -0400
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: Rogue Pacman yeast

Hi All,

  I have noticed quite a few posts recently about Rogue's Pacman
yeast.

  I have read in the past that the Wyeast #1272 (american ale II)
may be originally from Rogue and passed this rumor along to a couple
of people who have recently posted about the Pacman yeast.

  I recieved the following email today directly from someone at
Rogue:

>>>>>>>
Greetings Jeff,

Thanks for the email. Sorry it took a few days to get
to the bottom of this top-fermenting yeast issue...

John Maier has his proprietary PACMAN yeast privately
banked at Wyeast, but it is not commercially available.
You could culture the Pacman yeast from a bottle of
Shakespeare Stout or Mocha Porter. John recommends NOT
using Old Crusty though.

<snip other stuff>

<<<<<<<

  So, we now know that #1272 is not the Pacman yeast and that you should
be able to culture the yeast from bottles of Rouge.

  At the same time I had read about the #1272 maybe being from Rouge, I
remember reading that it may instead be the yeast used in Red Tail Ale
(Mendocino Brewing Co, Hopland CA).  Anybody know if this may be true?

                                     Hoppy brewing,

                                     Jeff


==============================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                    Phone:  (401) 841-7210 x152
Mechanical Engineer                    Fax:    (401) 841-7250
Launcher Technology & Analysis Branch  email: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Naval Undersea Warfare Center
Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2
Newport, RI  02841-1708

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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:53:58 -0500 (EST)
From: 00nelephart at bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Brew Pub Venture

A friend and myself are talking about starting a brew pub.  Although location
play's a major factor, what would be the initial capital outlay for this type
of venture?  Equipment is the biggest concern, because product quality is the
determining factor for sales.  Does anyone out there have suggestions about
such a major investment.  Equipment, level of experience for the
brewmaster(meister), production quantities, ratio of craft brew/pub brew to
commercial.  Anything would be a great deal of help. 

Noel Lephart
NLephart at symex.com


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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:13:00 -0700
From: "Brendan T. Kelly" <brendan.t.kelly at brewnews.com>
Subject: Aluminum Fermenters


I have access to a cheap source of large aluminum vessels that would make   
great fermenters. I am fairly certain that as much as I'd like to, I   
shouldn't use them, but don't know exactly why.

If the aluminum/Alzheimer's connection is still unproven (as I've read   
here), and I'm using a non-caustic cleaner (PBW) would I be safe using   
these vessels for fermentation? If not, why?

Thanks for your help. Private E-mail is fine if you think the answer will   
be obvious to everyone but me (it wouldn't be the first time).

Brendan Kelly
Philadelphia, PA  


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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:29:14 -0700
From: brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman)
Subject: Home brewing really is simple (really)

In reference to the recent posts about the over-complicated discussions
that sometimes seem to overrun the digest, I would guesstimate the
following figures are pretty close to average for all home brewers in the
US:

~ 98% + of my home brewing customers use extracts
~ 50% use dry yeast
~ 5% know what amylase is;  The other 95% don't want to know.
~ 33% ferment in plastic, single stage
~ 25% brew with untreated tap water
~ 25% don't own a single home brewing book or magazine
~ 95% sanitize with bleach and tap water
~ 90% would quit brewing if they were required to understand any chemistry
or                     biology
~ 98% are male

The core of the home brewing movement is the average guy who enjoys making
and consuming home brew, just like the average guy who enjoys fly fishing
or stamp collecting.  (Male chauvinism not intended)  Charlie P's attitude
is much like that of most home brewers;  RDWHAHB.  If you try to complicate
things, these customers will walk out the door in disgust and never return.

I read the hbd for my own enjoyment, but 95% of the digest's content is
totally useless to 95% of home brewers.  Not that I don't try.  I want my
customers to advance their brewing techniques, equipment and ingredients.
But the fact is most home brewers don't know an amylase from a hydrometer,
and they don't want to know.  The digest attracts those who have crossed
the line between hobby and obsession, but by no means should we ever credit
ourselves for the advancement of the hobby, for we don't very closely
represent the hobbyists.

Just some food for thought.

jeff
casper, wy



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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:27:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: RitchRon at aol.com
Subject: Toasting Grains

I'm fairly new at all grain brewing and was getting ready to try a Marzen
recipe that calls for 1 lb of the malted barley to be toasted in the oven
(for 10 minutes at 350 degrees) before mashing.  So I went to my local
homebrew store and picked up the grain, taking care to keep 1 lb in a
separate bag.  I also crushed all the grain in the store as a matter of
course - and there the plot thickens.  The next day I was browsing another
recipe for a similar beer which also called for toasting part of the grain,
but this one specified that the *whole* grains should be toasted *before*
grinding.

Intuition tells me I should still be able to toast the ground grain, albeit
for a briefer period or, perhaps, at a lower temperature.  Thus the obvious
question: how long at what temp?  Any ideas?

My thanks,
  Ron Ritchie



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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:18:22 -0400
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Holiday Ale Recipe

Art McGregor asked:=20
=20
>1.) Are there too many spices, correct boil times?
>2.) Should the spices be left in the fermenter or strained out?
>3.) What is the best way to get the zest from the oranges, a =
vegetable/potatoe
>peeler, or a grater?
>4.) Should I store the keg in the refrigerator while the spices mellow, =
or is
>room temperature ok?

I've only brewed 4 batches and am not yet ready to plunge into a recipe =
as intricate as the one you posted. However, I wanted to brew a =
Christmas beer and downloaded several recipes from Cats Meow. All were =
more than I wanted to attempt so I opted, instead, to simply use my =
simple Honey Wheat extract recipe and toss in the spices.

Guy McConnel's 'Christmas in Ireland' uses similar ingredients but =
different quantities. I used his spice mix for my brew and it smelled =
teriffic even while bottling!  I waited a whole 6 days after bottling =
before I popped one and it was quite enjoyable. If It improves with age =
I'll be bringing some to my office Christmas party to share.

Surprizingly, the spices used are similar to that which my wife uses =
during the holidays to bring a nice festive aroma to the house. =
Naturally, I asked her advice about the spice mixture and proceeded as =
follows:

1. Grate the rinds of four medium sized oranges using a cheese grater. =
Be careful not to grate down into the soft white portion which is =
bitter. Also, use one of the larger grates which makes it easier to =
strain the bulk out later.
2. Grate 4 ounces of unpealed ginger root.
3. Combine the orange/ginger gratings, cinnamon sticks, Allspice and =
cloves with four cups of water into a covered pot. I used ground cloves, =
incidentally. The recipe didn't specify but that made more sense than =
whole cloves. I omitted the honey since my basic recipe uses quite a =
bit, anyway.
4. Bring the mixture to a boil, reduce the heat and simmer for 45 =
minutes.
5. Strain the liquid out and set aside. You can add more water to the =
spices, reboil and leave the kitchen smelling extra good.
6. I opted to add the strained spice liquid during the last 5 minutes of =
the wort boil. No directions were given regarding that so I guessed. =
Maybe someone else has a better alternative.=20

	I bottle, as I said earlier. So, my brew is mellowing at room temp. =
O.G. 1.058 F.G. 1.016 (Same as the basic recipe). Hope this helps a =
little.=20

Mike D.


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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:26:28 -0700
From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Posts by Aaron A Sepanski and Joe Rolfe

I want to start off by saying. I AGREE with you both.
But, there are things to be gleaned by sitting back and observing the "froth"
that is churned up by the masses throwing in their two cents.  For instance.
Look at the 122 deg rest debate last month.  Wow, lots of correspondence.  
But what I got as a new brewer is don't think that just because you use Lager
Malt that it instantly needs a 122 rest to knock out chill haze.   I went
back to my notes and realized that my best beers ( I use British lager malt
in all my ales) were the ones that I overshot the 122 rest and landed about
132 - 135...  I never would have even considered the 122 rest contributing
until that standoff.. er.. debate had ensued.  I don't really give a flip
about alpha or beta almayze or anything, nor do I understand it.  But I got
something out of that that I can use.

People are people.  They contribute in very human ways, especially when its
about a hobby that they are passionate about.

 - Mike from Chicago
p.s Aaron, I'm enjoying the HBD and not paying too much attention to the
scientific stuff ( I can't understand it anyway).
Joe,   I'd be interested in how to perform and in-house malt test...


part of post from Aaron:
I rarely read this journal anymore.  I have seen so many people just screw
up science and scientific method.  Those people that are interested in
spitting out terms because they have a vague idea about what they mean
make homebrewing unenjoyable for others.  

Part of post from Joe:
for the new brewers (no not the magazine...) just have fun number one,
number two read everything you can get your hands on, and number three
experiment from instinct rather than scientifically explaining what is
going on....

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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:06:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Hinken <jhinken at accessone.com>
Subject: Address Correction

The announcement for the Brews Brothers Novemberfest Homebrewing Competition
in Homebrew Digest #2515 listed the address for the Elysian Brewing
Company's Brewpub at Gameworks rather than the the Brewery on East Pike,
which is where the competition will be held.  The correct address is listed
below.  Sorry for any inconvience.  

Jim Hinken
Bothell, WA




The Brews Brothers, Seattle's oldest homebrewing club announces the
Novembeerfest 1997 homebrewing competition.  The competition will be held
Saturday, November 1, at the Elysian Brewing Company, 1221 East Pike Street,
Seattle, WA.  

Started in 1991, Novembeerfest has grown from a local competition to the
most respected competition in the Pacific Northwest.  This year's
competition features something new - Fame! The Brews Brothers have arranged
for the following respected breweries and brewpubs to produce  four or five
of the top scoring beers for commercial release to the public! The breweries
are:

Elysian Brewing Co. - Seattle, Washington
La Conner Brewing Co. - La Conner, Washington*
Twin Rivers Brewing - Monroe, Washington
Flying Pig Brewpub - Everett, Washington
 * Still in planning phase

We are still in the planning stages with the 5th, hopefully soon to be
announced brewery.  Winning beers to be brewed are subject to the approval
and system limitations of the breweries. 

Entries will be accepted from all AHA style catagories including cider and
mead.  Three bottles are required for entry and the entry fee is U.S.$5. The
standard AHA entry form and bottle lables may be used or contact Rob Nelson
at the number below and entry forms will be faxed to you.  Entry deadline is
October 29, 1997.  Late entries will be received until 5:00 PM on Friday,
Oct. 31, with a  late entry fee of U.S. $10.  Entries may be shipped to 

Jim Hinken
24211 4th Place West
Bothell, WA.  98021
(425) 483-9324

Visit our web site at http://www.brewsbrothers.org.

Interested Judges may contact Rob Nelson at the address below or me at
jhinken at accessone.com.
 

For entry forms or more information, contact:
Brother Rob Nelson
Post Office Box 1016
Duvall, WA  98019-1016
Phone: (425) 788-0271
Fax: (425) 788-0271 (self detecting machine)
E-mail: Nelson at witty.com







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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 04:07:06 -0400
From: "TELEMUNDONET" <armstrong at telemundonet.com>
Subject: MAJOR BEER CONTEST

 Hi-
This could be of interest to your readers. Go here
http://www.telemundonet.com and then click on the Free Vacation beer contest
button. Also we are looking for channel partners-
I have included some info at the bottom of this mail about becoming a
channel partner.

Best Regards,
LIAT Interactive-Miami
Mark Armstrong, Director
Personal Fax: (305) 674-1154
E-Mail: armstrong at liat.com
"...all your dreams of lush, tropical,
warm Caribbean Islands
Right Here-Right Now..."
http://www.liat.com
______________________________________________________________
An Incredible Vacation Awaits You in:
San Andres-the Island of Non-Stop Partying...
Providencia-the Island of Adventure...
Santa Catalina-the Island of Peace & Tranquility...
We look forward to your next visit to
our playful Islands of Passion!
http://www.sanandres.org
______________________________________________________________



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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 05:19:39 -0400
From: Robert Pastor <rpastor at grouper.pasco.k12.fl.us>
Subject: Old Recipes

Greetings,
    Does anybody know where I can find beer recipes dating from
pre-1600? I already have a copy of Das Reinheitsgebot(German Purity Law
of 1516). I now need a recipe or procedure that can be documented as
being from that time.
Thanks,
Bob Pastor


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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 07:47:02 -0400
From: Forrest Duddles <duddles at Imbecile.kzoo.edu>
Subject: Drilling Refrigerators

Hi folks,

 Ian Smith asked about drilling holes in his late model Amana refrigerator...

Over the years refrigerator manufacturers have come up with so many
different ideas about what configuration is best and what features they
should include in their design that it is nearly impossible to know where
the refrigerant lines, air ducts and wiring are located. Each make, model
and style will  likely be different. Careful exploration may help you find
a safe place to drill, but there will always be some risk involved unless
you can see inside the area.

 Having said that, there are some common configurations. Most modern
frost-free designs use a small fan-forced condenser under the cabinet, and
a fan-forced evaporator either in the back or between the freezer and
refrigerator compartments. Temperature controls are usually in the form of
a remote-bulb thermostat that starts and stops the compressor to control
freezer temperature and a either an air duct shutter and/or
thermostatically controlled fan motor to control refrigerator cabinet
temperature. Refrigerant lines are USUALLY confined to the back of the
cabinet. Strip heaters are commonly used around doors to prevent
condesation. Wiring may be run anywhere inside the cabinet and is more
likely to be hit when drilling.

 Perhaps the safest place to drill is the door. Most models have no wiring
in the door and I have never seen one with a refrigerant circuit in the
door. Any door wiring will be visible in the form of a cord between the
cabinet and door near the hinges.

 Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
duddles at Imbecile.kzoo.edu


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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:59:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Jeff Sturman's "statistics"

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager..

Jeff Sturman sez...

> 
> In reference to the recent posts about the over-complicated discussions
> that sometimes seem to overrun the digest, I would guesstimate the
> following figures are pretty close to average for all home brewers in the
> US:
<"statistics" snipped> 

> and they don't want to know.  The digest attracts those who have crossed
> the line between hobby and obsession, but by no means should we ever credit
> ourselves for the advancement of the hobby, for we don't very closely
> represent the hobbyists.
> 
> Just some food for thought.
> 

Personally, Jeff, either the thought food you are providing is junk food,
or your clientelle bucks the "population" of brewers. Rather than dance
upon the grave of the statistics you have provided, let me point you
toward the Zymurgy issue of last year in which they reported the results
of THEIR brewers' survey. Keep in mind that the AHA and Zymurgy caters more
toward the beginning brewers than to the advanced, and you'll see why I
question the numbers you have provided. I hardly think that, in  an educated 
bunch as represented in their survey, only 5% would know - or care - what 
amylase is.

I think you don't give your clientelle enough credit for intelligence. 
Either that or THEY don't represent the hobby. THere are two sides to 
every coin, no? The simple fact is that BOTH groups do. Just two different 
extremes. 

And, if the HBD had nothing at all to do with the advancement of our 
hobby, believe me, I'd pull the plug. If no value came from this thing 
which I very rarely even get to READ anymore (understandably, this thread 
and your opinion have caught my attention), I could find far better 
things upon which to spend the hours invested in servicing its needs.
It isn't the middle-of-the-road, I-can-take-it-or-leave-it people who are 
responsible for the advancement of ANYTHING. They simply provide the 
economy necessary to support the suppliers. And the suppliers would be 
happy as hell to simply serve their needs and not produce any of the 
nifty, fancy, and high-tech toys and ingredients we have come to enjoy. 
Why are those toys and ingredients out there? Because we 
"foaming-at-the-mouth", three-headed monsters of the craft demand them - 
advancing the hobby. Hell! How many "I don't know or care what amylase 
is" type brewers have gone on to create and market something that 
benefitted the craft? I can think of none. On the other hand, we have Rob 
Moline who advanced to become a professional brewer. We have Dave Miller, 
Byron Burch, George Fix, Lutzen and Stevens, and many others who have 
written books to advance the hobby. We have Kenney Baughman, Listerman, 
Schmidling and others that have developed useful and marketable items 
that have helped to advance the hobby. We have those like Joe Bair, Algis 
Korzonas (until fairly recently), Mark George, and others who have opened 
homebrew shops in order to advance the hobby. Many of these people 
fished their concepts and enhancements right here on the HBD - Don't try and 
tell us who is advancing the hobby and who isn't.

Finally, if anyone finds nothing to gain from the Digest, or they have
burned out their page-down key, they can simply unsubscribe. That option
exists, too. Absolutely no attempt will be made by the Janitors or the
Steering Committee to redirect the focus of this mailing list. You folks
choose its direction by starting and responding to threads. If no-one
gains anything from a thread, it dies of its own accord - plain and
simple.  And all the yahoos who write to complain about threads simply
perpetuate them by causing those who have participated in them to defend
THEIR positions and participation. Simply put: if you don't like it, and
it doesn't harm you or yours IGNORE IT and it will go away. 

That, my friends, in a nutshell, is how this society we call the Home Brew
Digest works. To present unsubstantiated numbers to show that we're the
useless three-headed monster of the craft is, in my opinion, offensive. 
And yes: it pissed me off. 


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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 08:11:00 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: keep that geeky science stuff coming

hi all:

We got several responses from the "science geeks" to Aaron's post about too
much science. I thought I would toss in my view as one of  "scientifically
challanged" readers. Keep That Geeky Science Stuff Coming! 

A lot of it goes over my head but I seldom hit the page down key, although
I certainly respect your right to do so :-) Hell, I usually even read the
RIMS stuff. As a relatively new brewer (1 1/2 years, partial mash), the HBD
has been my best source of information. I look on the posts I don't
understand as pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. When you first start the puzzle,
it's hard to put the pieces together. As you proceed and begin to get a
little understanding,   something you read before begins to make sense -
you see where the piece fits in the puzzle. 

I get overwhelmed by the science sometimes but at least I can get a small
understanding of some of the issues. And as a newbie, I want to say that
many of the "science geeks" are the same people that consistantly post
answers to basic questions as well. Thanks guys.  

Well, now I have to get back to the "real world" and get stuff done so I
can leave for Denver. Hope to see you there.

Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle

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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:59:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Larsen <jal at oasis.novia.net>
Subject: mutant beer


Spencer writes:

>I'm not much interested in most of the "how do I clone beer xxy"
>discussions.

"Beer xxy?" I think this would be a fascinating discussion, but well
beyond even the vast science expressed in the HBD. Just what would this
beer be like? What would an extra x chromosome do to a beer? Or is an
extra y chromosome? Are there molecular geneticists out there willing to
take this on?

Retreating back into my hole,

Jim 




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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:22:56 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.com>
Subject: EBC to SRM conversion.

Hi Brewers,

I am trying out this Brewers Workshop software.
To work out the colour of my beer, the program use the malt colour in 
SRM. The malt I use is specified only in EBC and Lovibond.

How can I convert EBC to SRM ?
Are there a formula for this ?

I would prefer to convert EBC to SRM because I understand  that 
Lovibond is not described by a simple mathematical formula.
Can EBC be described by a simple formula ?

Thanks!


Braam Greyling    I.C. Design Engineer
Azona(Pty)Ltd     
tel +27 12 6641910  fax +27 12 6641393

You can taste a good beer with one sip, 
but it is better to make thoroughly sure.

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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:21:44 -0500
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Snake Oil and Water Mix

Eric Fouch wrote:
>The comments about RO water systems being expensive and the water
>being aggressive run counter to everything the local Rainsoft RO
>water system sales guy told me..

These people are in business to sell you equipment, not worry about your
plumbing. Often they know little or nothing about what is involved. The
house I live in is supplied by a well whose water exits at pH 6.5 or so and
has about 40 ppm (as CaCO3) calcium hardness and 68 ppm alkalinity. This is
a little, but not terribly aggressive (saturation pH 8.25 implying a
saturation index of -1.75). The previous owner got conned into buying a
neutralizer and softener. The water out of the softener has an alkalinity
of 135 ppm as CaCO3, a calcium hardness of 0.40 ppm as CaCO3 and a pH of
around 7.2. In other words, the equipment does what it's designed to do.
But the saturation pH of this output water is 10.04 for a saturation index
of +2.8. The water out of the system is more aggressive than the water
going in! So I called the local branch of the country's largest water
treatment supplier. The conversation went something like:

Me: I have a neutralizer and softener and the water coming out is more
aggressive than the water going in.
He: What do you mean?
Me: I mean the water coming out of the system is more likely to corrode my
plumbing than the water out of the well.
He; Sir, we have thousands of these systems installed all over the county.
Me: Are you familiar with the Langelier index?
He: No.
Me: Ryznar index?
He: No.
Me: Well those are industry standard measures of the corrosiveness of water
and they indicate that the water out of my system is more corrosive than
the water going in.
He: If you say so.
Me: Well, I didn't invent these things myself. Do you sell an aerator?
He: No.
Me: Good day.

(The deal with the aerator is that the water in question, if aerated, will
lose CO2 to the point where the pH reaches 8 or so and the saturation
(Langelier) index goes goes to -0.25 or so which is much better.)

I will note that this same supplier did tell a brewing friend that whole
house RO was impractical because he would have to replumb with plastic
pipe. As with any other technology product some salesmen know more than
others with the general reaction being "How the hell can they sell these
things if they know so little about them?". Then there was the water guy
(from whom I bought an RO system) who measured my "Totally dissolved solids
" for me.

The newspapers have more and more stories about bad water caused by the
cities' decaying infrastructures (I live near DC where the infrastructure
is about as decayed as it gets and the big scare around here is
cryptosporidium). The water treatment industry is now a growth inustry.
Caveat Emptor!

A. J. deLange
 - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.

- --> --> --> To reply remove "nosp" from address. <-- <--



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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 08:36:22 -0500
From: Chris Schmidt <CSCHMIDT at LHSNET.COM>
Subject: CIDER PRODUCTION AND SALE


Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:58:39 -0500
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: Homebrew and the law
- ----------------
Along this line.  I have a friend who owns an apple orchard.  He claims
that he can produce "Hard" cider and sell it without a license etc..  Claims
some kind of "Grandfather" law that allows for this as this goes back to
the beginning of the United States etc.

I question whether the ATF feels the same way.

Chris Schmidt

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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:43:56 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: lagering with 2112

Tim.Watkins at analog.com wrote:

>	On a brewing note.  About a month ago, I brewed Jeff Renners Classic
>American Pilser, "Your Fathers Mustache".  As my first attempt at a lager,
>I'm a bit concerned (not worried, just concerned).  My brewshop didn't have
>WYeast 2007 available, nor did he have 2035 nor.... you can see where I'm
>going with this.  I ended up using 2112, which, I realized after pitching
>it, is the California Common beer yeast.  Anyhoo,  I raised the temp in the
>fridge to 58F, which from what I understand, is the lower temp range of
>this yeast, and it's fermented out just fine.
>
>	A couple of questions:  How should I lager this?  Will the yeast crash
>out if I lower the temp to the lager range (<40F)?  How will the flavor
>have been affected?  This was my first attempt at a lager, so bear with me.

Glad to hear you brewed a CAP.  I've never used 2112, but it is a lager
yeast, and so it should do its thing at lagering temp, which is usually
lower than 40F - typically just above freezing.  Usually you want to begin
lagering a bit earlier than the month you've waited.  I start when the gas
production falls off and there is little kraeusen, typically at ten days.
Lower the temp slowly (I go with 3F/day).  I suspect you'll get more fruity
notes with the 58F fermentation, but maybe not.  This is the temp that some
commercial American lager breweries ferment at.

A friend of mine brought his CAP with 2112 over to my 50F temp controlled
freezer, and it fermented fine along my CAP with whatever yeast I had going
at the time (don't remember which), so I don't think 58F is by any means a
low point for 2112.

Let me know how it turns out!

Jeff



 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:06:42 -0500
From: djt2 at po.cwru.edu (Dennis J. Templeton)
Subject: Re: Drilling holes in refrigerator

Re:
>From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
>Subject: Drilling holes in refrigerator
>
>Has anyone tried drilling holes through a modern 21 cu ft (Amana)
>refrigerator

I drilled a hole in my Amana side by side while my wife was out of the
house. ;=)

I put it in the back, center, 3 feet off of the floor. I was a little
concerned about hitting something vital, but it worked fine. In order to
*not* hit a condenser, just in case one was there, I first drilled
carefully through the back panel sheath, exposing the insulation underneath
(foam-in-place kind of stuff). I then probed the location with a blunt but
narrow screwdriver to ensure clear passage to the far wall (about 1 1/2
inches). I reinserted the drill, and finished the job through the inside
wall. I made a liner for the hole from some 1/2 inch tubing to prevent
chafing of the beer line, and ran a line up from the basement into the
fridge.

BTW, it has served me nicely to keep a cold plate and tap in the fridge,
and the keg in the basement. You need to experiment with keg pressures
(mine has 20# pressure and about 20 feet of 3/8 in tubing). The plate takes
up less space than 4 bottles, and it is at the back of the fridge so the
wife doesn't complain. I can pour 3 cold mugs at a time before it begins to
warm up a little.

Good luck,

Dennis



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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:53:10 +0100
From: bob.mccowan at bmd.cpii.com (bob mccowan)
Subject: Ipswich Ale Yeast

Unless something has changed, Ipswich uses 1028 from Wyeast.  They don't
filter their beer so there's usually plenty on the bottom (sometimes it's
still a bit cloudy when they bottle it, at least in the growlers.)

I haven't been over there for a while, but in the past if I showed up on a
brewing day the brewers would give me a jar of yeast to take home.  They
also used to (may still) use volunteers at the brewery.

Bob

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob McCowan                            
Senior Engineer/Physicist                                    
ATG/Receiver-Protector            voice:  (508)-922-6000 x208
CPI BMD				    fax:  (508)-922-8914
Beverly, MA  01915               e-mail:  bob.mccowan at bmd.cpii.com

"In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The
learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer
exists." - Eric Hoffer


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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:13:54 -0500
From: "Ernst, Joseph G." <ernstjg at Maritz.com>
Subject: HDB & Beer Geeks - a Newbie's view

Dave in Dallas writes:

> I don't chide people for
>asking a frequently-asked question on the digest; why should the
reverse
>be true?  
 ...
>And I think it is fair to say that many of us Geek-brewers are
>quite willing to help out when less experienced brewers ask for it, and
do
>not look down our nose when that happens.  If we *did*, then the
arguments
>against being so detailed would have more weight.  But the fact that
>brewers of all experience and interest levels can get solid, useful
info
>here is something to be praised.

Well said, Dave, this deserved a rerun.  As a newbie, the understanding
and patient nature of the more experienced is _greatly_ appreciated.
The extreme technical discussions should be as welcome as the newbie
FAQs IMO, so that each of us can choose what to read, learn or skip
over.

I believe I speak for all less experienced readers when I say "Thanks".
It is refreshing to read a collective that doesn't answer every newbie
question with "look in the archives, idiot".
(Although looking in the archives first is the polite thing for a newbie
to do)  :-)  


And one question for you, treasured collective:
I have a a wheat beer in a corny keg at 40F/11-12 psi, I use a picnic
tab and 24" of tubing.  Upon dispensing, the flow is fast and it
produces more of a head than I would like, even though  I pour down the
side of the glass.  The glass ends up 60% beer, 40% foam, yet when it is
tasted, it doesn't have a very carbonated mouth feel.  Am I doing
something stupid again?  ;-)  Any suggestions are welcome, private email
okay.

Joe 
(ernstjg at maritz.com)


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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:36:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Paul Henning <phenning at cs.uiowa.edu>
Subject: When to add DAP


If you were to add diammonium phosphate to your DME-based starter,
when would you do it?  I seem to remember that it doesn't survive a
boil (perhaps evidenced by the massive ammonia aroma produced if you
add DAP to hot water), but I don't like dumping things into the
"cold-side" starter for sanitation reasons.

Long live technical discussions on HBD! ;-)

Paul Henning		phenning at cs.uiowa.edu
Iowa City, IA		http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~phenning


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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:10:08 -0400
From: Dave Johnson <djohnso at OPIE.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Science in Brewing

Greetings all,

I'm sure Mr. Sepanski merely forgot to recall
that neither Gregor Mendel nor Charles Darwin
were trained as scientists when curiosity got
the best of them.  Dr. Dave Draper nicely
summarizes my feelings.

Regards,
- -- 
Dave Johnson
Dept. of Biol. Scie.
Bowling Green State University

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