---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Got a burnin' question! (James Wolff)
  homebrew gives you gout! (Andy Walsh)
  The Jethro GABF Report ("Rob Moline")
  Re: Millenium Ale & Opening Brewpubs (silva)
  Re: EBC to SRM (errata) (Fredrik Staahl)
  Maple Porter (i.brew2)
  Where's the CO3? (A. J. deLange)
  honey (John Penn)
  Lagering Procedure ("Jeff Johnson")
  Flour Explosions, Hydrometer, ("David R. Burley")
  re> mint leaves (John Penn)
  RIMS Science / Lager fridge ("Keith Royster")
  Refridgerators (Tim.Watkins)
  Re: Refrigerator or freezer? (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Dry Hopping (Bob.Sutton)
  Orange Peels ("Morton, Mike")
  precision hydrometers ("Anton Verhulst")
  Refrigerator insulation (Forrest Duddles)
  cincinnati brewpubs (Jason Hartzler)


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Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 22:51:30 -0400
From: James Wolff <jwolff at eci.com>
Subject: Got a burnin' question!

I've been reading HBD for only a few weeks, and am thinking that this is
the Internet at its best.  A bunch of people in far-flung geographic areas,
all with a common interest, sharing their thoughts and ideas, asking
questions, stimulating discussion (and yes, even dissent).  Keep up the
good work!

And now to my question.  As a relative newbie a have many, but I'll start
off simple.  I've only made about a half-dozen batches, but already my wife
is not a big fan of the brewing process.  She loves the end result, mind
you, but she can do without the "brew stank" (her words) that lingers in
the house for a day or so after I brew.  She has so helpfully suggested
that I move my beermaking activities to the basement or garage.  However,
neither location has a stove!

In catalogs and magazines, I've seen propane burners advertised.  As I have
limited funds for my new hobby, I'm hoping to pick one up secondhand,
although from where I'm not sure.  What BTU rating should I be looking for?
 I hope to find a burner I can hook up to the spare tank from the gas
grill.  If anyone has ideas as to where one can be picked up on the cheap,
I'd be much appreciative.

(And I will make sure my brewing area is properly ventilated, so you don't
even need to start warning me about the hazards of carbon monoxide.)

Thanks much,

James Wolff
Bethel, CT

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:34:16 +1000
From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Subject: homebrew gives you gout!

"Gout, gout,
>From way too much stout.
This is one drink I can do without!
Come on, I'm talking to you, come on."

(I believe these were the original lyrics to the Tears for Fears smash
hit, "Shout", but were changed to give the song wider appeal.)

I've got bloody gout and I hate it! I bet other HBDers do too - well
lets all take a pause and feel sorry for ourselves...

For those fortunate enough not to know what gout is (this means you
don't have it!), the clinical symptoms are most often shown by continual

extreme pain at the base of the big toe (although it can occur in any
joint). The pain often arises for apparently no reason during sleep at
night, and is associated with swelling, redness, and great sensitivity
to touch. An acute attack may last for a week or so. Once you get one,
you will get more, unless you do something about it (either
medication or change in lifestyle).

Gout is caused by crystals of uric acid forming in the joints (most
often in the foot). All gout sufferers have high uric acid levels, but
not all people with high uric acid levels have gout (although they are
the major risk group). Gouty people either produce more uric acid or
have diminished excretion via urination. Uric acid is both synthesized
by the body, and also derives directly from foods containing purines,
which are catabolized to uric acid.

What's this got to do with homebrew?
Beer is the only alcoholic beverage with a measurable purine content
(ref 1) (despite what many diet books may tell you!). The primary
purines in beer are the nucleosides guanosine and adenosine, and derive
from the
breakdown of malt proteins. Beer may contain up to 150mg/l of these two
(2). All malt beers tend to have higher purine content than those made
with lower protein adjuncts. Yeast also contains purines. Any alcoholic
drink will suppress uric acid excretion in a gouty person, hence will
elevate blood uric acid levels, but beer more so than others.
Isohumulones (from hops) have also been suggested as playing a role in
decreasing uric acid excretion (3). Drinking beer on successive days
will further suppress uric acid excretion in gouty people.

Ref 1 says "homebrew"  has minimal purine content, as opposed to
commercial beer. They do not define "homebrew", but I would guess that
from the date and place of publication (Britain, 83), that they must be
referring to kit beer (low protein, high sugar). I see no other reason
why all malt grain homebrewed beers would be any lower than commercial
ones in purine content.

Gout is often said to be hereditary but can also be acquired by
sensitive individuals (4).
People most at risk for getting gout are those who put on excessive
weight in young adulthood.

I would guess that all this makes homebrewers prime candidates for gout.

If you get gout your doctor will probably tell you to stop drinking
beer. This is sound advice, but not very appetising for most homebrewers
(especially those who like to "organoleptically evaluate" as much as I
do!). Medication works (most often allopurinol, which decreases urate
production), but once you start, you must take it every day for the rest
of your life. Loss of weight, combined with a low purine diet and no
alcohol, will often eliminate gout attacks.

If you have gout and drink beer, and don't want to stop drinking beer,
then at least consider:
 - don't drink beer every day. Try and break it up a little to give your
body a chance to eliminate excess uric acid
 - gouty people have a low urine pH after drinking beer (around 5.2, cf.
5.8 normal - yet another use for your pH meter!). Making the urine more
alkaline *may* aid uric acid excretion (huge ??? here as this is my
theory only - comments?). Urine alkanalisers are available from chemists

for people who suffer urinary tract infections ("Ural" is a local
brand). I'd suggest one after any "session".

Andy

PS. Hey, Dave in Dallas, stop being so pointy-headed and just chuck in a

bit of gypsum like 95% of the rest of us would do!

Refs:
1. T. Gibson et al, "Beer drinking and its effect on uric acid", Brit.
J. Rheumatology, 1984, 23, 203-209
2. C. Dale et al, "Quantaitive analysis of purine nucleosides and free
bases in wort and beer", JIB, 1994, 100, 173-178
3. C. Eastmond et al, "The effects of alcoholic beverages on urate
metabolism in gout sufferers", Brit. J. Rheumatology, 1995 Aug, 34:8,
756-9.
4. R. Roubenoff et al "Incidence and risk factors for gout in white men"

JAMA, 1991, 266, 3004-3007.
5. http://ubu.hahnemann.edu/Heme-Iron/pupyr/pp.htm gives a biochemical
background



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 23:28:07 PDT
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: The Jethro GABF Report

		The Jethro GABF Report
	Wow, what a party! Four days of talking non-stop beer! Mark Silva from
Real Beer Page was losing his voice by the last night, and I was losing my
strength, with the late night debates, and the early rising, to get to the
next event or destination!
	The HBD gathering at the Falling Rock was stronger in numbers on Friday,
Saturday, with the following HBD'rs there; Phillip Rotherham, Wade
Huthison, Kenny Eddy, Rich Gardner, Jeanne Colon-Bonet, Jason Goldman, John
Adams, Jeff Sturman, and others. I know there were others, but I seem to
have lost a page of my notes. A special thanks to Chris Black, owner of
Falling Rock, for his hospitality. The place has 85 beers on tap, I think,
and the Fullers Porter was wonderful! If you visit Denver, it is a must! 
Other notables included Bob Brewer, the Anchor brewer responsible for Old
Foghorn B-Wine.
	This years B-Wine was from the Bluegrass Brewing Co., of Louisville,
Kentucky, and it was fabulous! Dave Pierce, the brewer and I discovered
that we had more in common, as we had both been buyers of  supplies from
Ron Downer, in our homebrewing days, and it was good to see Ron at the
Falling Rock.
	BTW, the Big 12 recipe should soon be published in a book on B-Wines to be
released in March.  I hope they sell a bunch of them! (Not a shameless
plug, I will get no money from this book being sold, just a free copy.)
	Great Ideas I Wish I Was Responsible For!......The Beverage Management
Associates Company of Evergreen, Colorado, has aquired the rights to use,
and will be soon packaging an 8 pack, I believe, of beers, labeled "1997
GABF Award Winners." Now that the judging is over, Vince Ventimiglia, the
Pres of BMA, will be contacting those winners that he wishes to assemble,
and if you are lucky, you will be able to buy them in your market soon.
What a no-brainer, huh? Pure elegance!
	Little Known Fact........The GABF has a "Chill Out Room," for those that
have had too much, and/or are becoming, shall we say, less than gentlemen.
Those that are identified as candidates are offered a choice of escort off
the property, or up to 45 minutes in the "Cooler" where they may eat and
drink non ETOH drinks, and assess their situation. Those that demonstrate a
willingness to restore their behaviour are then allowed back into the hall.
A nice touch from the GABF security folks, who were very nice and
professional fellas and ladies, IMHO.
	Most Unusual Person Award........Goes to a lady I met out on the smokers
porch, that had a T shirt on that said, "A Buck A Bite" on the back, and "$
5", on the front. On the shirt were small cello wrapped candies, taped to
the shirt. Now, this most unusual marketing strategy was for and on the
night preceeding her wedding, while she was out for her bachelorette party,
and by the time Brian Rezac and I met her, she still had plenty of candy on
her back, but funnily, very few on the front! We both gave her a buck and
let her keep her candy! 
	Millenium Ale....McGuires also had a millenium ale at GABF, and the
explanation of the brewer was that it was so-named to celebrate the 1000th
time their proprietary yeast had been re-pitched! A nice Belgian Tripel.
	Jethro's Best of Show Award!.....Without a doubt, New Glarus Brewing Co.'s
Belgian Red! Simply stunning! Over a pound of cherries per bottle, and aged
in oak, it reminded me of a big red balloon, crisp, tart, aroma to die for!
This was the Gold Medal winner for fruit beers that Steve Bradt, Free State
Head Brewer, dismissed himself from judging when he recognized it.
Apparently, it has been 7 years in the tweaking stages to get it to this
point!
	Credit Where Due Dept..........To Anheuser Busch, for the best educational
display I have yet seen at GABF. From the ten sniff vials with off flavor
compounds to demonstrate off flavours, to the opportunity for fest goers to
sample beer at various stages of brewing, like unhopped unboiled wort, to
finished beer with no hops, to filtered versus unfiltered, they must have
had about 12 or 15 different tastes to sample. Well Done! And the staff
manning the booth were staff chemists, so there was none of the more
usually expected, "I don't know's," to tech questions.
	Homebrew Club of the Year.........The AHA paid expenses for 4 members of
the Derby brew Club of Kansas to attend the show, and demonstrate
homebrewing technique. They also gave away samples of PBW and Star-San by
Five Star, which incidentally will soon be distributed by L.D. Carlson, so
your HB shop should be able to supply you with it.
	Jethro Met His Match!.....Standing at a door to the smokers porch, where
Jethro goes from time to time, I was shooting the breeze with the security
guy, and he asked where the Jethro Gump Brewing Company, the name on my ID
tag, was. I explained it was ficticious, just a nickname, and he produced a
student ID from a Colorado University. The name read, "Christopher J.
Gump!"  We were both surprised as hell, even though his middle name is
Jeffrey!
	I Wouldn't Have Believed It!...... Apparently, a brewer was found to be
selling his Participants ID on the concourse in front of the show! Sorry,
but this is over the top. Personally, I value mine to the point where I
bring them home and frame them.
	And Again, I Wouldn't Have Believed It!.....At the Breweriana convention
that is held concurrently with GABF at the Holiday Inn, I saw a bronze
medal, Fruit beer category, 1995, I believe, for sale! One fella said he
thought it was from a failed operation, but that the owner of the booth,
not there at the time, had worn it out to the bars the night before, and
never had to pay for a beer all night!
	KUDO's.....to all involved for producing the best GABF I have yet
attended. The AOB, IBS, AHA, GABF staff, and especially Sharon Mowrey
should be justifiably proud of the whole damn thing! I had a great time,
renewed acquintances, made new ones, and know that there is a lot to look
forward to in the industry!
Cheers!
Jethro ( Happy as a Pig in ****) Gump

Rob Moline
Brewer At Large
brewer at ames.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!".


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:02:50 -0700
From: silva <silva at realbeer.com>
Subject: Re: Millenium Ale & Opening Brewpubs

Noel Lephart wrote:

>I was in a local liquor store the other day, and the discussion I had with the
>worker there was about an interesting product.  It is called Millenium Ale.
>As explained, this ale is, supposedly, aging in the bottle, and is to be
>consumed on the night of the new millenuim.

As Andy Ager pointed out in his post, this is a legitimate brew that is
weighing in around 9.5% and has great malt complexity according to the
brewer, Andrew Hepworth, of King & Barnes, Ltd. of Sussex, England. You can
learn more about them at http://www.kingandbarnes.co.uk or by sending email
to king.barnes at btinternet.com. These folks are the real thing and have some
great product available for sipping today -- check out their
bottle-conditioned porter if you get a chance.

As for the marketing angle, there is a beervana establishment in Emaus
(near Allentown), PA where rare, cellared bottles of Thomas Hardy (circa
1980s) fetch prices up to $150/bottle. The Millenium Ale sounds like a
steal at $21, now, doesn't it? :-) IMHO, I believe that the market will
support distinctive, carefully brewed, handled and cellared,
limited-edition beers. This particular example is individually numbered
with a neck-label.

RE: Brew Pub Venture
>
>A friend and myself are talking about starting a brew pub.  Although location
>play's a major factor, what would be the initial capital outlay for this type
>of venture?  Equipment is the biggest concern, because product quality is the
>determining factor for sales.  Does anyone out there have suggestions about
>such a major investment.

First, plan on attending next year's National Brewpub Conference. This
year's was historic and the first of its kind. Second, try to get a hold of
Mike Ramsey's presentation notes from the conference. He's the Executive
Brewer for Hops! Bistro and Brewery in Arizona and presented "Buying
Brewing Equipment." Notes may be available by contacting BrewPub! magazine
editors at (916) 758-4596. Second, subscribe to BrewPub! magazine. You can
find them online at http://www.brewpubmag.com and email bp at brewpubmag.com.
Third, consider surfing the ProBrewer pages at http://www.probrewer.com
where you can find legal requirements for each state and province as well
as a classified area for careers, equipment and investment offerings.

Good luck. Cheers!
Mark Silva
Publisher, CEO
Real Beer, Inc.

Publishers of:                                Real Beer Inc.
The Real Beer Page                        2339 Third Street, Suite 23
http://www.realbeer.com             S.F., CA 94107
The ProBrewer Page                      415.522.1516 - voice
http://www.probrewer.com          415.522.1535 - fax
BEERWeek                                      realbeer at realbeer.com
http://www.beerweek.com           Internet Publishers &
RBPMail                                                        Consultants
rbpmail-request@ realbeer.com



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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:59:51 +0100
From: Fredrik.Stahl at math.umu.se (Fredrik Staahl)
Subject: Re: EBC to SRM (errata)

Sean Mick writes on the subject of EBC vs. SRM:
>Oops! I should have said it only works for beers of 4 degrees SRM or less.
>This info is according to George Fix, as found in "Evaluating Beers,"
>resulting from a conversation with Roger Briess (Briess Malting), and his
>own experiments/research. Apparently, the two scales (EBC and SRM) use
>completely different analytical procedures to reach their results,
>therefore, conversions between the two using a mathematical equation is
>held suspect in the professional brewing community.

As I understand it, this used to be the case until sometime before 1987,
when the EBC procedure was changed. It is now more similar to the SRM
method, see below.

Christian Guenther sais:
>While reading this question about converting EBC colour units I found out
>that I have never heard of SRM or Lovibond units before.So know I'm
>also interested in this question.- Does anybody have more detailed
>information obout common used brewing units in USA ?
>
>As far as I'm concerned the EBC colour unit is defined as :
>
>
>    C = 25 * E               E : extinktion at 430 nm in a 10 mm kuevette
>                                 mesuared against distilled water
>                             C : colour unit (Europeean Brewery Convention)
>
>One gets the best correlation between a wort sample from the malt and the
>colour of the beer when one boiles the mash sample before mesuaring the
>extinktion.

Daniels [1] (note the errata in [3]) explains the procedures as

    SRM = 10 * A              A : absorbance in a 0.5 in. (1.25 cm) i.d.
                                  glass cuvette at 430 nm.
    EBC = 25 * A              A : absorbance in a 1 cm (0.4 in.) i.d.
                                  glass cuvette at 430 nm.

He states that the new EBC procedure was adopted only recently. This must
have been before 1987 since that is the print date for the latest version
of Analytica EBC. Daniels gives the following conversion formula:

1.97 SRM = EBC.

I would _not_ recommend the formula EBC = (2.65 * L) - 1.2 which often
quoted as being inaccurate over 4 SRM or so, and which is probably based on
the old EBC procedure.

I agree with you that the correlation between malt and final beer colour
would be much better if the sample worts were boiled before measuring the
malt colour. But this is _not_ the case; the congress mash method (Daniels
does not specify if this applies to both SRM and EBC) uses distilled water
and no boil [3]. If you can measure the grain colours yourself, by all
means do it, but most of us have to do with the colour values given on the
malt spec sheets.

Frederick Wills writes:
>This may be approaching "analysis to paralysis", but my main theories
>are:
>
>1) Dilution of beer is the same as dilution of anything else.  The
>resulting color will be reduced in a predictably logarithmic fashion.
>This could be demonstrated with a suitably accurate instrument.  This
>also means that adding pigments to beer (or any other liquid) would be
>equally  predictable.
>
>2) The color of beer as measured using the lovibond scale (as it
>pertains to beer color at least if not grains) appears to not
>demonstrate the same dilution linearity (per Breiss, Fix, et al).  This
>must mean that the scale is inherently non-linear and as such,
>prediction cannot be done mathematically.  You would need a look-up
>table of some sort to correct for the error between the calculated SRM
>and the commonly used lovibond scale.
>
>The real problem IMO is that conventional homebrew wisdom says that
>lovibond is "close enough" to SRM.  While this is probably true at the
>lower end of the scales, when the beer sample is darker than about 1.0
>Au (ie 10 Lov. or SRM units) the scales would appear to diverge.  The
>interesting thing is that the divergence appears to occur at nearly the
>same rate that the error of commonly used spectrophotometers increases.
>Coincidence?

I'm not convinced. Daniels writes in [1], referencing [4]:

"Based on work done by Beyer, Stone, and a subcommittee of the ASBC, the
ASBC had identified a method of direct color determination that provided
good correlation with the visual methods."
<snip>
"Despite the official name of SRM, you will often still see the label
Lovibond applied to results of color analyses based on this method."

He also has the following comment on using a beer colour card:
"I used one of these cards extensively during my research and found that it
produced a reasonably accurate result very quickly."
<snip>
"Nonetheless, I found the correlation between this method and instrumental
readings to be very high."

You claim that the non-linearity when diluting beers comes from using the
Lovibond scale. But I was under the impression that Dr. Fix' data [5] was
in *SRM*, as Daniels quotes it (I do not have access to the original
reference). Also, Daniels has dilution data with *SRM* values of a range of
dark beers, and the curves are non-linear.

Have you really tried this out yourself and found a linear correlation
between dilution and SRM? What makes you believe that the Lovibond and SRM
scales diverge over 10 SRM?

I'm not too familiar with the workings of a spectrophotometer, but I think
it would be very strange if the nonlinearity was an effect of some
systematic measurement error.

[1] Ray Daniels, "Beer Color Demystified - Part I: How to Measure Beer
Color in the Home and Microbrewery", Brewing Techniques 3 (4), 56-64 (1995)
[2] Ray Daniels, "Beer Color Demystified - Part II: The Science of Beer
Color", Brewing Techniques 3 (5), 60-63 (1995)
[3] Ray Daniels, "Beer Color Demystified - Part III: Controlling and
Predicting Beer Color", Brewing Techniques 3 (6), 56-63 (1995)
[4] American Society of Brewing Chemists, "Report of Subcommittee on Color
in Beer", in Proceedings 1950 (American Society of Brewing Chemists, St.
Paul, Minnesota)
[5] George Fix, "A Simple Technique for Evaluating Beer Color", in
Evaluating Beer (Brewers Publications, Boulder, Colorado, 1993) (originally
published in Zymurgy 1988, I think)

/Fredrik Stahl, Fredrik.Stahl at math.umu.se

P.S. Sorry if this discussion bores everyone, maybe we should take it to
private e-mail. D.S.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:06:20 -0400
From: i.brew2 at juno.com
Subject: Maple Porter

I have a neighbor who is a Maple Syrup producer.  I wanted to make him
some Maple Porter with his syrup.  I have an extract based kit.  Would
someone make a suggestion as to how much syrup to add for a 5 gallon
batch?  I don't want this to be exceptionaly high in alcohol.  Also, does
maple syrup produce the kind of off flavors that refined sugars do?  I
have had suggestions to add from one pint to one gallon to just using it
to prime at botteling, but no one seems to have really done it, just
guessing.

Scientific and / or Artistic E Mail encouraged

Dave Blaine
I.Brew2 at Juno.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:54:36 -0500
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Where's the CO3?

Braam Greyling asked about finding carbonate, as required by "Brewers
Wortkshop" software in his city water report. I'm not familiar with this
software but what it really needs to know to do its job is the pH and the
sum of the carbonic, bicarbonate and carbonate concentrations in the water.
This number is often called "bicarbonate" and sometimes  "carbonate". It
is, in fact, approximately the bicarbonate unless the water is at an
unusually high or low pH. In most municipal water reports this value is
hidden in the "total alkalinity" (called just "alkalinity" unless the
report gives bicarbonate alkalinity and carbonate alkalinity (and hydroxide
alkalinity - don't worry about this one) separately. as some do). Assuming
that the alkalinity is reported in mg/L (or ppm) "as CaCO3", divide by 50
and multiply by 61 to get the mg/L bicarbonate. If bicarbonate and
carbonate alkalinities are listed separately add the two before doing this
(though the carbonate number will be much smaller than the bicarb unless
the pH is unusually high). Plug this result in where the program asks for
carbonate. You can get better accuracy if you take the pH into account (and
better still if you include the effects of other ions) but this is probably
not justified for the majority of cases. The software should really ask for
alkalinity, pH and the way in which alkalinity is defined (your
municipality and brewers define it slightly differently) for best results.

e-mail me the report numbers if you like so I can see what you've really
got instead of speculating.

A. J. deLange
 - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.

- --> --> --> To reply remove "nosp" from address. <-- <--



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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:54:53 +0000
From: John Penn <john_penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: honey

Honey is about 1.036 ppg and very roughly 1 cup of honey is about 12oz
by weight.  So 2/3 cup is about 8oz by weight which is 18 pts.  Compare
this to 4oz of corn sugar at 1.045 ppg which corresponds to 11.25 pts.
to carbonate.  So I think 2/3 cup is a little high (~= 6oz corn sugar),
I'd shoot for 1/2 cup or slightly less depending on how much carbonation
you want.  Hope that helps.
   John Penn

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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:00:52 -0400
From: "Jeff Johnson" <jdj at mindspring.com>
Subject: Lagering Procedure

Hi everyone,

I'm an all grain brewer that until recently only brewed ales due to the
lack of a lagering fridge.  That lack has been alleviated by the purchase
of a chest freezer and temperature controller.  I made the plunge into
lagering last weekend and would like some comments on my procedure, so here
it is:

I brewed an Oktoberfest like beer (I know it's too late to be done before
the end of October <g>) using 6 LB Vienna, 5 LB light Munich, and .75 LB
rolled oats.  I used a double infusion mash schedule (decotion is a little
more than I want to bite off just yet) 135 deg F for 20 min., then up to
154 deg F for 60 min.  Conversion was checked, complete.  Sparged into my
kettle to collect about 7 gal, boiled 75 min. to final volume of 5.5 gal. 
Used Haullertauler (sp?) for bittering and Haullertauler and Saaz for
finishing.

Now here come the questions <g>...

I'm using Wyeast Bohemian lager yeast (#2024, I think).  I made a 12 oz
starter three days before brew day, stepped this up to 1 qt the day before
brew day.  I put these starters in the brew fridge at 50 deg F which I
think was all right since they kicked off great and had lots of
fermentation activity when I pitched.  Is this the proper procedure or
should I let the starters kick off at warmer temps before pitching?

The batch of beer was cooled to about 78 deg F (that's as cool as my
counter flow chiller can get it with my less than cool tap water :-<)  I
aerate with a Kluge tube which works pretty well.  I placed my carboy, with
an air lock stuffed with sterile cotton,  in the fridge overnight to chill
further and the next day I racked the beer off the settled cold break.  The
temp of the beer was about 54 deg F at this time.  I pitched the yeast,
attached the airlock with idophour sol'n in it this time, and placed the
carboy back in the fridge( this was Monday A.M.).  I checked it this
morning (Tues.) and the temp is about 52 deg F, but still no airlock
activity.  I'm not worried, mind you <g>, but how long does a lager usually
take to show fermentation activity?

I plan to primary this beer at 50 deg F for two weeks, rack to a secondary
and slowly lower temp (about a deg a day) to 44 deg and let it sit for
another two weeks.  I'll then check SG and if I think its finished I'll
rack to a lagering vessel (i.e. a cornelius keg), add gelatin fineings, 
and lager at 38 - 34 deg F for 3 weeks or so, and then force carbonate. 
(coincidentally it should be done around Thanksgiving when I'll have about
20 family members at my home who will no doubt drink this beer that I've
slaved over for 7 weeks or so in about 2 days :-<)

Well, that's a mouthful, sorry for all the bandwith (whatever that means),
how does this sound??  Any obvious mistakes?  any non-obvious mistakes?

Thanks,
Jeff

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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:09:53 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Flour Explosions, Hydrometer,

Brewsters:

Robert Kiniston said about my cautions
 to not stir ground malt in a gas oven
 for fear of setting off a flour explosion: =


> Dave, I saw your message in the HBD the other day and I think that you =

> are concerned about something that is probably like the snowball in you=
 =

> know where.  Grain doesn't"t explode, grain dust or flour does and that=
 =

> only in the right conditions. =


Here's exactly what I said:

"I would use the same schedule.
 My only concern, Ron, is that the flour
 from the crushed grain can be explosive
 if you have a gas oven.  Be careful.
 And for sure don't stir the ground grain in the oven."

Please note I said "flour, gas oven and don't stir".

> first it must be very fine and in the air =


The reason I said to not stir the crushed
 malt in the oven to avoid stirring up the flour.

> Both my wife and mother bake and use considerable more that what would =

> be in a lb of malt on top of a pan of biscuits and do not have a =

> problem.

Well I bake too and I wouldn't want my
 wife or mother stirring a bunch of flour
 in an oven, if it was a gas oven.

>  Yes there grain explosion in grain storage and mills but they =

> are a result of a lot of dust/flour in the air.  Even these are a rare =

> event in this day and age, considering the amount of grain and processe=
d =

> flour, shipped in this country.

Not really, there are laws about
 grounding which reduce the possibility
 of static charge, humidity control , etc
 which are necessary components =

of a safe transport system.  And accidents still happen.

Try this 4th grade experiment.  Put a funnel
 through a hole in the bottom of a press-fit =

top container (Crisco can, cookie tin, for example),
 attach a hose to the bottom of the funnel, =

put a tiny amount of  flour in the funnel
 and a lighted candle inside the can. =

Put the lid on.
  Blow gently to stir the flour into the air
 and watch the explosion and flash!

Thanks for your comments, but please
 try reading mine a little more closely.
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Whitman is concerned about his
 RO water having a zero point error
 of 0.0025 with his new 0.0005 scaled hydrometer. =

 I assume you checked and corrected
 for the temperature error ( the most likely cause)
 and  boiled the water to remove any CO2 =

( although unnecessary except to the most
 thoroughly AR like I am)?

Per CRC Handbook, at atmospheric
 pressure and RT,  saturated CO2
 can be 6 X 10^-4 molar or with a GMW
 of 44 for CO2 will be 0.0264 g/liter or
 represent a zero error of about 1.0000264, =

 whereas 0.0025 on a hydrometer is 2.5 g/liter.
  Dissolved CO2 can't explain your error.
  Likewise, if your  RO filter was broken
 and you had very hard water, even 500 ppm,
 ( 0.5 g/liter or an SG error of 1.000500) =

 of dissolved solids wouldn't explain it. =


I would ask the manufacturer for
 zero point calibration data.
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =

 =


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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 10:14:07 +0000
From: John Penn <john_penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: re> mint leaves

I recently got some advice on mint leaves when I brewed a mint
chocolate stout.  The recipe called for 2-4oz of mint leaves in the
secondary but instead I put about 1.5 oz in the boil and soaked 1.5oz in
a jar with vodka for a few days before tossing into the secondary
(actually the primary after fermentation subsided).  The aroma from the
jar of soaked mint leaves was very strong and wonderful.  However, it
was almost non-existent when I bottled it.  Its only been in the bottle
for about 2 weeks and I hope to try the first one sometime this week. 
I'll let you know how it turned out.  The advice I got was that leaves
in the boil are flavor and in the secondary are flavor and aroma.  Also,
the leaves need to be picked fresh because the flavor dissappates
quickly I was told.  The only other mistake was that it rained that day
so my mint leaves were probably a little heavier because they were a
little damp.  Next time I'll try to brew on a non-rainy day with fresh
leaves to get a more accurate weight.  Good luck and I'm curious about
other advice on spices and mint leaves.
   John Penn

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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:44:19 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: RIMS Science / Lager fridge

While I also have strong feelings about the science VS art
discussion, I have tried to avoid it because there are others that
can more eloquently discuss it than I.  However, I do want to
comment on the common idea express by Charles Hudak
<cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com> and many others that RIMS and their
operators are among the overly scientific.  I built my RIMS a little
over a year ago and love it.  However, I most definitely do not
consider myself overly scientific (remember the anti-anal-rentitive
thread I started?).  Ironically, many of the most scientifically 
knowledgable people here in this digest do not use a RIMS nor do 
they plan to. 

I think people assume that RIMS are more technical than they really
are.  It's just a pump and a temperature controller (which I bought
and have no idea how it works). I don't have any dilusions that I
couln't make great beer without it, I just built it because I like
brewing gadgets and it does make some parts of the process easier. I
do NOT mess with my water chemistry, I do NOT check or adjust my pH,
I am NOT anal about sanitation, I do not understand the biology of
the yeast much, nor the chemistry of the enzymes. I don't give a
damn about SRMs and probably never will, but I may decide later to
adjust my water chemistry and/or pH because I do believe that it has
some effect, but it is not high on my priority list. 

So to all you beginning brewers out there, do not be intimidated by 
the technical talk here.  Absorb it at a rate you feel comfortable 
with and page down when it goes over your head.  You may find, as I 
did, that threads you considered too technical at one time will 
eventually become interesting to you.  If so, that means you've 
learned something.  Its true, as many of the opponents of science 
have pointed out, that much of it is not necessary to make great 
beer, but it's also true that the more you understand about how the 
process works the better control and repeatability you will have.  I 
firmly believe that my brewing skills have been significantly 
accellerated because of the knowledge I have gained from this digest.

- ---------- 

Ronald LaBorde (rlabor at lsumc.edu) advises Donovan
(dlambright at socketis.net) that some fridges might not get down to
lager temps so a freezer with an external thermostat would be better.
This surprises me a bit because I've never had any problem with
either of my fridges getting them down into the low 30s, which is
just fine for lagering.  In fact, I have accidentally frozen a keg
solid in my fridge once (ice beer?).  I realize that this is
anecdotal evidence and that fridges may differ, but aren't most
designed to hold food at temps at least in the mid 30's?  And don't
you run the risk of over-working the compressor on a freezer that
wasn't designed to cycle on and off as frequently as a fridge? 

Keith Royster - Mooresville/Charlotte, North Carolina

email: keith at ays.net
http://www.ays.net/brewmasters -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://www.ays.net/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery)
http://www.ays.net/movingbrews -pumps and accessories for advanced homebrewers

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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 9:47:59 EDT
From: Tim.Watkins at analog.com
Subject: Refridgerators

	In HBD 2524, Forrest Duddles asks about whether we use refridgerators 
or freezers to control fermentation temperatures.
	I use an old (20yrs +) Sears Coldpoint (I think that's what it's 
called...) refridgerator to control the fermentation temps in my apartment. 
 I built my own temp controller for it, and it works excellent for ale 
temperatures.  As it turns out, my apartment doesn't have a thermostat for 
controlling the heat, but is just a radiator with a control for more heat, 
or less heat.  The lowest setting keeps it just a bit too warm for me and 
my beer (73F or so, depending upon the outside temp).  As a result, I use 
the fridge to ferment everything in, which is a pain in the butt, but its 
well worth it.
	I'm attempting my first lager right now as we speak, and it is doing 
ok at about 36 degrees, but it runs more than I would like it too.

	Now, here's a question for the collective.  When I drilled holes 
through the side (I have a kegging setup as well) I noticed that there 
didn't seem to be a whole lot of insulation in there, and the temperature 
seems to rise faster than our other fridge (I'm assuming the difference in 
age, and insulation materials is culprit).  I've seen some cans of 
expanding foam insulation, and was wondering if I could drill some holes on 
the inside of my fridge, and filled the walls with this expanding foam 
stuff, whether it would help a lot or not.  Does anyone have any experience 
using this stuff?  Is it worth my time and effort?

Sorry for the long post...

Tim
Lowell, MA

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Date: 07 Oct 1997 07:23:15 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at vigra.com>
Subject: Re: Refrigerator or freezer?

I use a chest freezer with a Johnson Controls external remote bulb
thermostat.  It keeps the temp to within +-3F.  The most significant
problems with a freezer are moisture buildup and mold.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

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Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:33:00 -0400
From: Bob.Sutton at fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: Dry Hopping

  GuyG4 at aol.com asked:
  
  "What factors enhance dryhopping..."
  
  You didn't say what form your hops were in (leaves, 
  plus, pellets). I find that pellets yield the most 
  potent dry hop character since the oils in the leaves 
  are more available due to the pelletizing process. If 
  I skip my late hop addition and use the same amount in 
  the secondary - then my results are quite good.
  
  Notice I said secondary - if you're only using a 
  single fermentor, wait 4-5 days before adding the dry 
  hops (until CO2 activity subsides); otherwise you'll 
  scrub out much of the hoppiness. Good Luck!
  
  Bob
  Fruit Fly Brewhaus
  Yesterdays' Technology Today

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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:40:01 -0700
From: "Morton, Mike" <mmorton at unocal.com>
Subject: Orange Peels

For several years I have been brewing a holiday ale similar to
Papazian's "Holiday Cheer"; ginger-orange peels-honey-chocolate malt.  I
very much enjoy the flavor and aroma of this beer but would like a more
pronounced orange aroma (not overwhelming).  I add the orange zest into
the last 2 to 5 minutes of the boil, sometimes quite a large quantity,
trying not to boil too long in order to preserve the essence.  Still
there is only a very subtle aroma of orange.  BTW I have been using
fresh Valencia type oranges.  Is there something I can do to extract
more orange aroma without going to artificial aromas (someone suggested
liqueur)?  Perhaps use different types of oranges (probably not
available here in Houston)?  Making an orange "tea"?  TIA.

Mike Morton


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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 10:47:11 -0400
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: precision hydrometers


>From Dave Whitman:
>I just replaced my standard home brewing hydrometer with a relatively high
>precision one from Cole Parmer.  The new hydrometer is longer and covers a
>shorter range (1.000-1.070), allowing very fine 0.0005 SG graduations.
>(c.f. 0.002 graduations on my old one).  The hydrometer cost $23.

I bought one with the same range, mail order, from the Brewers Resource
for $17.  I find it much easier to use (easier to read and more precise)
than the $6 versions typically found in homebrew shops.  


- --Tony V

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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 12:14:38 -0400
From: Forrest Duddles <duddles at Imbecile.kzoo.edu>
Subject: Refrigerator insulation

Hi Tim,

 Since you addressed your insulation question to the collective, I'll send
this to the list also.

Indeed, one of the most important improvements in refrigerator and freezer
design in recent years is foamed-in-place construction. Various
combinations of spun fiberglass and foam, or even rock wool were commonly
used in past designs which often left voids where moisture and/or ice
collect. The closed-cell foams now used don't absorb moisture and lose
their ability to insulate.

Adding foam to an older refrigerator may be a worthy project if its design
allows enough access. Often a panel on the back of the freezer compartment
or trim behind the door gaskets can be removed.

One note of caution is necessary for those who haven't used canned foam -
This stuff REALLY expands. It can develop a lot of pressure in a confined
space so shoot some onto a piece of cardboard first and let it cure to get
an idea how much room to allow for expansion. I once saw a contractor use
this stuff to seal around wall outlet boxes. He shot too much into a stud
cavity and it forced the drywall right off the wall studs! 

Since there is a lot of flat surface area both inside and outside of a
refrigerator cabinet, it would be easy to bulge the cabinet walls if even a
little too much foam is used.

In my earlier post requesting feedback from those who use modified
refrigerators and freezers I neglected ask for the configuration of the box
you use... Is it a side-by-side, freezer on top, freezer on bottom,
upright, chest, etc. This would be helpful.

Thanks,
Forrest - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo

Please send fridge data to fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu

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Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:15:46 -0500
From: Jason Hartzler <jehartzl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Subject: cincinnati brewpubs

anyone have any advice on brewpubs,microbrews,or beer bars in cincinnati. i
have checked the realbeer brewtour and the pubcrawler on the internet and
have gotten 10 to 15 places, but would like to know if anyone has actually
tried any of the places and can tell which are best. please email privately.
thanks,
jeh


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---