---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Oxygenation (Jack Schmidling)
  Re:Cask-Conditioned ale (Jason Goldman)
  Re: enviro-friendly sanitation (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Winning contests (Dion Hollenbeck)
  new club ("Bryan L. Gros")
  home brewery design ("Dulisse, Brian K [PRI]")
  Splitting Wort for Small-Vessel Boiling (KennyEddy)
  Re: EasyMasher vs. Phil's Phalse Bottom (and Al's new book) (brian_dixon)
  Looking for a Brew Buddy (Trent Neutgens)
  Re:  GABF, AHA and $$$ ("Brian M. Rezac")
  RE:Lagering in kegs ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  World Beer Views (Brian S Kuhl)
  re: GABF (sort of...) ("Michel J. Brown")
  Riding the Foam (Charles Hudak)
  brewing and environment ("Bryan L. Gros")
  judging ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Oranges, Cardamom and Computer SNAFU's (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  Re Science in Brewing (Mark and Marya Bolyanatz)
  Como se dice "Ale": A question to Spanish speaking brewers. (acarrasc)
  Metalurgical question... (Harlan Bauer)
  Lime as water treatment ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  re: 2L soda  bottles (haafbrau1)
  enviro-friendly sanitation (Tom_Williams)
  Cincinnati Brewpubs (dajohnson)
  Cyser and Braggot question (Chris Cooper)
  BrewPubbing in NY State ("Michael Gerholdt")
  Rock Bottom Cask Ale (Mark Tumarkin)
  Mashing at 40C (George J Fix)
  RE: 2L soda bottles ("Larry F. Byard")
  rye mashing questions (Jeff Sturman)
  When does one cease being "new" (Danny Breidenbach)
  None ("Andrew Avis")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:37:33 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Oxygenation

Before you all get carried away with the oxygenation magic again,
I suggest the newcomers read my report on the subject.  It is on
my web page in the Application Notes section.

Bottom line is, any reduction in the onset of fermentation time is
vastly overwelmed by just increasing the pitching rate a modest 
amount.

That is not to say that wort does not need oxygen but simply that
just pouring or squirting it into the fermenter vigorously is all
that needs to be done to satisfy the requirements.

js



- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday


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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:29:52 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jason Goldman <jason at rauch.cnd.hp.com>
Subject: Re:Cask-Conditioned ale

While I was doing the week o' GABF, I tried the cask-conditioned red ale
at Rock Bottom.  It wasn't bad, certainly no signs of infection when I
drank it on Thursday afternoon.  On the other hand, it wasn't the same as
RealAle in England.  In general, I think the beers here are, on average,
bigger than those in England.  Often, places here think that all they need
to do is naturally (and very lightly) carbonate and that makes a good
"cask-conditioned" ale.  I think that there's more to it than that...the
beers should really be designed for the cask.

Also, about your experience with ESB at Pints, remember, sometimes the
brewers aren't familiar with a style and so they put the wrong name on
it.  Last week, I was in Atlanta at the Atlanta Bier Gartenand I tried
their Koelsch.  It was a pleasant enough beer, but the caramel flavor
and brown color were somewhat out of style;-).  OTOH, Pints might have
been confused.

Jason
jason at fc.hp.com

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Date: 14 Oct 1997 07:41:17 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at vigra.com>
Subject: Re: enviro-friendly sanitation

>> dajohnson  writes:

dan> out of curiosity: My girlfriend and i are wondering what the most
dan> effective and ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY sanitation method is.  I
dan> am currently using plain bleach and water.  However, as an
dan> environmental scientist, she wants to stop supporting the
dan> chlorine industry altogether.  I'm assuming that some sort of
dan> no-rinse sanitation solution would be best, but are the chemicals
dan> involved any better -- from an environmental standpoint -- than
dan> chlorine?  Can anybody definitely recommend a particular solution
dan> (or 2)?? Thanks.

Not definitely, but what about iodophor?  Use it, put it in a bucket
and it will disappear to plain water in a couple of days.  Then dump
it. 

dion

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Date: 14 Oct 1997 07:59:25 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at vigra.com>
Subject: Re: Winning contests

>> Scott Kaczorowski writes:

SK> Don Van V. says in HBD 2527 on winning contests:

>> Brew it BIG  and brew it hoppy.

SK> I think this has been common 'wisdom' for those who've made a hobby
SK> of winning competitions.  However, I've recently been involved in
SK> several competitions, the Pacific Brewers Cup being one, and IMO,
SK> this is not necessarily the case and is dependant on the specific
SK> competition.

>> It wasn't a big surprised to me that a triple won the Pacific Cup
>> recently.

SK> I was very fortunate to have judged on the first round panel that
SK> sent this beer to the BOS round (though I am unranked).  This was
SK> a BEAUTIFUL beer that deserved to win.  To dismiss it without having
SK> tasted it and it's competition is irresponsible.

And I was on the BOS panel that gave it BOS, and I agree with Scott
that it deserved it.  Not because it was big, but because it was
excellent and TO STYLE!!!!  We eliminated most of the other 15 beers
that went on to BOS round because they had minor flaws, and those
flaws were "out of style" flaws.

I was also fortunate to be on the BOS panel at last years GAZBF and
the winning beer there was a Koelsch!!!!  Yes, you heard me right.
The reason the koelsch won BOS was that it was perfect!  It had EVERY
characteristic of a koelsch, even the vinuousness, and had NO FLAWS!
It was everything the style says a koelsch should be.  It literally
jumped out of the glass and yelled "KOELSCH" at you.  Out of the other
15 beers, we eliminated 8 almost right away with minute flaws.  We
spent the next 1/2 hour or so winnowing out 5 more, leaving us with
koelsch, a prickly pear fruit mead and an Imperial Stout.  Neither the
stout or the mead were BIG for style.  We ended up finding a very
slight "out of style" with the stout and awarded the mead 1st runner
up to the koelsch.

There has been much discussion in JudgeNet Digest about "big beer
backlash", so that judges are quite leery of awarding prizes to big
beers and are very careful to score strictly according to style
guidelines.  

But if you want to win ribbons, I do suggest that you go towards the
top of the style guidelines.  If your beer happens to be judged late
in the flight and the judges are getting palate fatigue, being at the
top end of the range will help out.  But don't go outside the range,
because many of us tend to slam beers quite heavily for being too
malty or too hoppy for the style, about as bad points-wise as being
infected. 

dion

BJCP Certified judge

Organizer
1997 America's Finest City Homebrew Competition
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor

- ---
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:28:09 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: new club

Doug Moyer (moyer-de at salem.ge.com) wrote:>Gentle collective,
>        Last night, a dozen of us gathered together to tentatively
>approach the formation of a new homebrew club. Our closest
>AHA-sanctioned clubs are over 150 miles away, so we are pretty much on
>our own. HELP! Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

If you've got a dozen people together to talk about beer, sounds
like you've already got a club.  

So once you decide to formalize you're get togethers, come up
with a mission and start advertising for new members.  When I 
started a new club, I decided we needed a newsletter as a marketing
tool.  I sold ads in the newsletter to local businesses and got a 
mailing list from the brewing supply store.  The ads were a whole
or half page for $20.  The money was just to cover copying and
stamps for the 100 or so people we mailed to.  Brewpubs had no
problem with $20 a month for an ad directly to people who may
be customers.  

Then you need only find a place to meet.  Regular meetings (e.g.
second saturday afternoon) at the same location each time help 
get people coming back.

Good luck.

          - Bryan

            gros at bigfoot.com
            Oakland, CA

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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:52:14 -0400
From: "Dulisse, Brian K [PRI]" <BDulisse at prius.jnj.com>
Subject: home brewery design

i've at last joined the ranks of the landed gentry, and my wife has 
laid down the law: no more brewing in the kitchen.  the good news is 
that she wants me to set up a dedicated brewery somewhere in the 
house, preferably in the basement.  i have a couple of questions for 
folks who have put breweries into their basements:

1. 	how did you arrange the plumbing to get rid of waste water?  i 
want to have a large sink for washing equipment/draining chiller water 
in the immediate vicinity of my setup . . .

2. 	how did you vent your system?

i've seen a lot of system designs on various web pages, but i haven't 
seen any of them discuss these issues (but they're fun to read 
nonetheless . . .)

fwiw, i'd like to have a system big enough to do 10 gallon batches, 
and i'm planning on hiring a contractor to run a natural gas line down 
to the basement to avoid the problems associated with propane.

thanks

bd


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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:05:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Splitting Wort for Small-Vessel Boiling

Charley Burns asks about splitting wort boiling duties between two vessels:

  [My question]:Does he really need to split the _hops_ between two
  kettles? Can he get pretty much the same hop utilization and character by 
  boiling all the hops in one kettle and just the left over 2-3 gallons of 
  wort in the other kettle? That way he doesn't have to lose so much wort in 
  the second kettle (half gallon each kettle instead of only 1/2 gallon).

This is a good question, one that raises another, that perhaps the more
chemistry-inclined HBDer's can address.  My response would be that IF the hop
chemicals are simply DISSOLVED in the wort, then hopping only one vessel
should work.  However, if the hop compounds BIND in some way with the wort
constituents, or otherwise change the chemistry of the overall wort, then the
effect of a split-wort boil could be different than hopping the entire batch.

One other point that has been raised here before, but I'm not sure has been
definitively resolved, is whether hop utilization is a function of the amount
of hops used.  In other words, does the presence of high amounts of hop
essentials reduce the ability of more hop essentials to be extracted?  This
is relevent since you would effectively be doubling the hop rate in one of
the vessels.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 09:32:20 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: EasyMasher vs. Phil's Phalse Bottom (and Al's new book)

>Brian writes:
>>I highly recommend Phil's phalse bottom over the EZ-masher.  Both are
>>just fine.  Zymurgy's tests consistently showed the Phil's phalse
bottom
>>returning 2 to 3 pts/lb/gal more extract, e.g. this amounts to an
>>increase in efficiency of about 7%.
>
>Ahem... Al Korzonas' tests *published* in Zymurgy showed a Phil's
>Phalse Bottom(tm) *in*consistently returning 0.3 pts/lb/gal more than
>the EasyMasher(tm).  Inconsistently, because I admitted this was a
>single test... a single set of datapoints.  The difference between the
>best and worst (the grain bag in a bucket) systems was only about 3.5
>points and the difference between the PPB, EM, Pico and copper
>manifold was less that that.   The issue was the 1995 Special Issue
>(the Great Grains issue).
>
>Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
>korz at xnet.com
>
>My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
>     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

I stand humbly corrected!  I misread the data and felt so wonderful
about my Phil's Phalse bottom that couldn't help but recommend it!  I
guess zero point three is a bit less of a difference than just 'three'. 
Let's make that "zero point seven percent" difference in yield ...
that's "in the noise"!  Thanks, Al!

BTW, a couple people have mentioned it, but rather indirectly, so I want
to point it out clearly: Al Korzonas has published a book called
"Homebrewing, Volume 1", and you can find it advertised (and
instructions on making your purchase) on the web site listed in Al's
signature above.  Also, if anyone out there has been involved in
publishing anything, let alone an entire book, they realize the huge
effort that goes into it and the great difficulty in actually getting
something to press.  Al has made that effort and has successfully made
it to press.  I'm sure I'm not speaking only for myself when I say, as a
homebrewer, that I personally appreciate Al's accomplishment(s).  Thanks
Al!

Brian


 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway.

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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:06:35 -0500
From: Trent Neutgens <tneutgen at isd.net>
Subject: Looking for a Brew Buddy

Hello All,
    I am looking for someone in the Twin Cities, MN area that is in to
all grain brewing.  I have been extract brewing for almost 6 years now
and I, like many others, am ready to make the jump to the all-grain
thing.  I have been doing as much research as the internet will allow
and I think I have a good handle on things.  Now, before I make to jump
and start buying equipment I would love to see a setup first hand.  It
would be great if I could be someone on a Saturday and help out brewing
a batch of Homebrew.
    If you are in the area and are thinking of making up a batch real
soon I would love to hear from you.  I could even supply some
ingredients or some <gasp> Beer! No Homebrew for at least another month
or so until the batch in my secondary is ready to drink.  Thank you in
advance for any help and also a big Thank You to the rest of the group
for all the information I have received over the past years, it is
truely appreciated!!!

Sincerely,
Trent Neutgens
tneutgen at isd.net
(612) 448-6564
***********************************
***I've Never Met a Beer I Couldn't Beat***
***********************************



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:22:54 -0600
From: "Brian M. Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Re:  GABF, AHA and $$$

In HOMEBREW Digest #2528, Jeff Sturman wrote:
> Subject: GABF, AHA and $$$
> 
> First, the GABF went up to $30/session this year.  

Jeff, since you do own your own business, I am certain that you are
familiar with the economics law of "Supply & Demand".  That is ONE of the
major
factors in the admission increase.  There is a limited amount space in
Currigan Hall which only allows us a fixed maximum capacity of people in
the
Hall at one time.  (This is a Colorado Fire Code regulation.)    I don't
know if you were aware of the fact that on the Friday night session we was
so close to capacity that the GABF security actually had to postpone
admittance for a short period of time while the hall cleared out some. 
Even with the price increase, attendance records were still broken.

Another reason is that the cost of running the GABF goes up every year. 
Currigan Hall's rental, hotel rates, security costs, etc.. - they all
increase every year.

> Then they won't replace a broken glass at the festival, but instead
charge for a 
> new one, even though some drunk person bumped into me and made me drop 
> my glass.  Last year, and years previous, they replaced broken glasses
for free.  

I'm starting to see an undesirable pattern forming here.  Seriously, ever
since I started attending the GABF in 1992, the policy has been that each
attendee is given one glass.  I double checked this with the GABF Director,
Nancy Johnson.  She said that, for as long as she can remember, the policy
has been not to replace the broken glass with another, but instead to
replace it with a plastic cup.  

If you talked someone into giving you a glass in the past after you broke
yours (or had it broken), your salesmanship skills are exemplary. 
Personally, I have tried and failed one year when my glass was stolen.

Another note on the glasses is the "intentional groundings" that take
place.  (I am not putting you in this category.)  I'm sure you can see that
rearming those type of people would just be insane.

> They outlawed backpacks/sacks last year but fortunately provided bags for
> festival goers.  

The outlawing of backpacks is due to attendees attempting to smuggle beer
out of Currigan Hall.  The fact is we could lose our liquor permit if they
do succeed.

> This year they were too cheap to even provide bags.  

Wrong.  We were handing out bags during all sessions.  They did run out up
front for a short period but were sending people back to the AHA booth for
Zymurgy bags.  We never ran out back there.  I know that I personally gave
bags (and some of our homebrew) to a few HBDers.

> Now the latest issue of Zymurgy, the special issue, went up to $9.95 per
> copy.  Charlie must have built a big house...

This is not an increase.  This is the same price as last year, quarterly
issues are $6.50 and special issues are $9.95.  In addition, the 1997 HOPS
Special Issue is excellent!

Let me end on this note.  The GABF can be a zoo and people come away from
it with completely different experiences and perceptions.  But, if any of
you has a problem, complaint or suggestion related to the AOB/AHA, contact
me, Jim Parker or Amahl Turczyn directly.  We will do our best to get you
the answers or work on solutions.

 -  Brian

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association  (303) 447-0816  x 121   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                              (303) 447-2825   (fax)
PO Box 1679                                 brian at aob.org   (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679                info at aob.org     (aob info)
U.S.A.                                        http://beertown.org  (web)


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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:55:03 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: RE:Lagering in kegs

Two folks wrote:

>    Why do all of this? Just remove the pressure relief valve from the
>lid (mine are held on with a removeable nut),  get a drilled rubber
>stopper (don't know the number but the size that fits a bottle....you
>probably already have one on hand) and insert it into the lid along with
>the airlock. It's a whole lot easier.  


I thought of putting the airlock in the pressure relief
valve hole, but I have 2 kinds of kegs.
Those which the pressure relief valve is *not* removable,
and those that the pressure relief valve nut is just
barely holding on - the whole thing is pretty much
cheesy, crumbling plastic. The fittings, on the other hand are
stainless steel and can take dissasembly and re-assembly 
much better. 

I have am an even easier idea that has worked great for me.... just
disconnect the CO2 end of the tube from the keg leaving the gas side
connected and place the tube into a small jar of sanitized water. Pretty
much the same method ou would use on a fermenter blow off set up. That
way, any pressure that builds is relived and it still maintains a
sanitized environment.....pretty simple!!

Have Fun!

Marc 

- --
Capt. Marc D. Battreall
batman at reefnet.com
        \\\ /// 
         (o o)
=====oOO==(_)==OOo=====
Beer is proof that there is a God
                     Ben Franklin

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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 15:16:00 PDT
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: World Beer Views

HBD'er Writes in part...
    I am a USA citizen living in the USA who couldn't agree more
    wholeheartedly.  I get almighty sick of only seeing USA-related      
    stuff (not just here, but everywhere).  I personally DESIRE, 
    APPRECIATE, and CELEBRATE the diversity that is available and wish 
    we had MORE (beer?)!

This forum is open to all. If others, including those in other 
countries, fail to participate, the point is moot. Besides, I have 
read many posts from Australia, Canada, UK. Maybe you can be more 
specific as to what country you would like to get information from. 
I'm sure there listening! :)
Brian


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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:26:33 -0800
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: GABF (sort of...)

>Did anyone go to the Rock Bottom Brewery, and try their Cask
>Conditioned Ale? 

Well, if its in line with the rest of their malarky that they try to pass
off as a micro brew pub, then I'm not at all surprised. They are without
honor, and I do not trust them!

>It is their Red Ale (I don't remember the name).  I tried one, and I
>couldn't drink it. Maybe the cask had been there too long, but it was   >bad.

Well, that goes along with their service, and their attitude. Reminds me of
LABC...

>They tried to tell me it was fine, but I'm afraid I've had too many real
>ales in the UK to buy into that.

Well what do you expect from liars and cheaters? Just goes with the
territory IMHO.

>The Pints Pub has their own Cask Conditioned Ale that was an E.S.B.
>I ordered one, and thought I got a Porter!!  It was so dark you couldn't
>see through it, and it had the complex flavor structure of a Porter.

Ever since the bean counting suits got into brew pubs for the profit, this has
been the result: too many innovations based upon ignorance of the facts, and
names used to beguile the public into accepting their dictum as proof of their
"superior" product.

>Although it was fresh and served properly, I never would have thought it
>was an E.S.B.  Honestly, if I had just been served this beer as a blind
>sample, I would have thought I was drinking a Porter.  

These new profit oriented brew pubs (nothing against money, just don't
think profit should be the namesake of quality) know next to nothing of
style, as they are geared more towards making a fast buck rather than
turning out a quality product. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good
brew pubs out there, but there's also an alarming trend towards self
defined beers based upon marketing strategies without style substantiation
to go along with it.

>Are the guidlines *really* that broad for an E.S.B.? I thought gold to
>copper with 14 SRM being the upper end of the scale was the range for an
>E.S.B.  (At least that's how the one *I* just brewed looks!!!)

That may well be the reasonable approach, but you're assuming that truth in
labeling laws apply to products on premises. There needs to be an industry
watchdog that can take to task those who are less than honest about the brews
they produce. Then again, it could just as well be the industry too, remember
those ads in the trade journals that tout "ale in seven days, lager in
twenty-one"? Or my favorite -- "no special training required; turnkey systems
for non-brewing or non-technical people". With help like this from the
industry, who needs enemies?!?!?

                      Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.
                       homemade at spiritone.com 
           http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
           "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                      Big Man Brewing (R) 1996


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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:31:01 -0700
From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
Subject: Riding the Foam

Dave Wrote:

>Finally, a question:  I ozygenated using an aquarium stone, and found that
>the fine bubbles it produced quickly overran my 6 1/2 gal carboy with foam.
> I figured fine bubbles would be more efficient in oxygenation than course
>bubbles, but I'm not sure how to overcome this foaming for long enough to
>get the oxygenation completed.  Any suggestions?

I've found that if you pitch the yeast before you start aerating, that the
wort foams up quite a bit more. I use a similar setup and I aerate for
30-40 minutes with no problem (foaming, that is). I pitch my yeast after
the aeration is finished. Give that a try.

Charles Hudak






Charles Hudak
cwhudak at adnc.com



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:00:09 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: brewing and environment

dan johnson wrote:
>     out of curiosity: My girlfriend and i are wondering what the most 
>     effective and ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY sanitation method is.  I am 
>     currently using plain bleach and water.  However, as an environmental 
>     scientist, she wants to stop supporting the chlorine industry 
>     altogether.  I'm assuming that some sort of no-rinse sanitation 
>     solution would be best, but are the chemicals involved any better -- 
>     from an environmental standpoint -- than chlorine?  Can anybody 
>     definitely recommend a particular solution (or 2)?? Thanks.

along these lines, is iodophor bad for plants?  should I be worried about
pouring
old iodophor water in my garden or yard?

          - Bryan

            gros at bigfoot.com
            Oakland, CA

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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:09:42 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: judging

Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at nfs.aisf.com> wrote:
>Don Van V. says in HBD 2527 on winning contests:
>
>> Brew it BIG  and brew it hoppy.
>
>I think this has been common 'wisdom' for those who've made a hobby
>of winning competitions.  However, I've recently been involved in
>several competitions, the Pacific Brewers Cup being one, and IMO,
>this is not necessarily the case and is dependant on the specific
>competition.

I think a lot of judges, especially those on HBD and judge digest
have really been watching themselves and trying to prevent this 
particular problem in judging lately.  Not to the extent of reverse 
discrimination, but being aware of the potential for a bigger beer
to grab your attention and ensuring that it is not out of style.  If it
gets a high score, ensuring that it deserves that high score.

At least I've been trying to keep this in mind when judging.

And remember that if you think your beer was poorly judged
and the feedback provided was not worthwhile, be sure to
notify the competition organizer and/or the judge.  I'm sure
the majority of judges would appreciate the feedback.

(I can't wait for a note like "How could you possibly give my
porter best of show!?!?  That was a 1.080 beer!!!")

          - Bryan

            gros at bigfoot.com
            Oakland, CA

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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:35:06 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Oranges, Cardamom and Computer SNAFU's


I recently posted the possibility of using cardamom as an ingredient to
provide orange flavor in a beer.  Some kind hombrewer sent me some feedback
on my response and I mistakenly deleted the response during a computer
upgrade today.  If possible, would that kind soul please re-send their
response to me?  TIA
Nathan in Frankenmuth MI



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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:37:55 -0700
From: Mark and Marya Bolyanatz <mbolyana at slonet.org>
Subject: Re Science in Brewing

This may be a little dated 'cuz I'm very behind on me E-Mail.
Aaron A Sepanski stated that he was a chemist and that he thought that
even though brewing was a science, persons with no chemistry background
could still brew good beer.

As I have been employed as a chemist for the past 10 years, I feel that
brewing good beer is at least 50% art.

Just as in tuning a Mass Spectrometer, it is the Chemist's experience
and wisdom that ultimatly determines the quality of the job.

Murdoc
- -- 
Murdoc Brewing Co.
Best and most awarded 
Brewery in SLO

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Date: 14 Oct 97 07:57:34 -0400
From: acarrasc at reacciun.ve
Subject: Como se dice "Ale": A question to Spanish speaking brewers.

Salud amigos!
Discussing the introduction of new (at least to our market) beer
styles, a rather stubborn language purist friend of mine said to me
that being beer almost as old as civilization, and being that the
oldest yeast strains evolved to give us the Ale style, there must be a
Spanish (old enough language), true Castellan word to name it.  In
doubt, I consulted the main spanish dictionary, the "Diccionario de la
Real Academia Espa=F1ola de la Lengua", but found no reference.  Do
any of you Spanish speaking brewers happen to know the Spanish
translation of "Ale"?

Hector Landaeta
Caracas, Venezuela.





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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:39:43 -0500
From: blacksab at midwest.net (Harlan Bauer)
Subject: Metalurgical question...

I'm rebuilding my brewery (again) and I'm wondering whether I'm going to
encounter any problems by having a SS coupling welded to the bottom of my
hot liquor tank (it's a budwizer keg)? Specifically, since I'm going to be
heating the tank externally with a gas-fired burner, is the area around the
weld (which will be in the direct line of fire) going to be succeptable to
corrosion or cracking? 

My reason for wanting to place a coupling on the bottom is so I can
completely drain the kettle for cleaning without having to tip the thing
over into the sink--just run a hose from the coupling to the floor drain and
hose the thing clean. Now before someone asks why I would need to clean the
HL tank so well, it's because I'm considering doing the same thing to both
my mash tun and boiling kettle for the same reason. I've got a hose, and
I've got a floor drain, and I'm sick and tired of lifting the kettle into
the sink. So far I haven't broken the glass level-guage on my boiling kettle
yet, but it's just a matter of time... ;-)

TIA,
Harlan

   
         Harlan Bauer              ...malt does more than Milton can   
        Carbondale, IL             To justify God's ways to man.       
     <blacksab at midwest.net>                          --A.E. Houseman   
   


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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:07:03 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Lime as water treatment

I saw pickling lime in the canning department of the local supermarket the other
day.  Pretty cheap, they also had non-iodized salt.  I assume this is slaked
lime, Ca(OH)2 and not CaO, as dead-burned lime would very dangerous for home
use.  I don't recall having seen lime mentioned as a part of brewing water
treatment recipes in the beginning books I've seen.  Is there a good reason for
this?  I realize it would be pretty alkaline, but might be useful for those of
us with very soft water making dark all-grain beers.  Comments or caveats? 
Private email OK, I'll summarize if enough interest is generated.
 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington

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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:04:51 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: re: 2L soda  bottles

I use 1-2 L Seltzer bottles.  I eliminates the odor problem that I had
difficulty beating, plus my wife 
and I drink alot of seltzer water. Just my 2 cents (plain)  :-) .
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:45:30 -0400
From: Tom_Williams at cabot-corp.com
Subject: enviro-friendly sanitation


Dan Johnson asks about alternatives to bleach sanitation....

Dan - the answer is iodine.

All (at least all in Atlanta) brewing suppliers carry it.  I believe it
works faster, is more effective than bleach, and doesn't require a lot of
rinsing.  But for me the biggest advantage by far is that I can't stand the
smell of bleach.

Try it; you'll like it.

Cheers,
Tom



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 08:45:14 -0500
From: dajohnson at mail.biosis.org
Subject: Cincinnati Brewpubs


     Hello all,
     
     It seems to me this question was asked quite recently, but i don't 
     think it received any replies (at least not on the HBD itself).  Can 
     anybody recommend any brewpubs in the Cincinnati area?
     
     Thanks,
     
     dan johnson



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:25:39 -0400
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: Cyser and Braggot question

Greetings all!  It is fall and I just went to the local cider mill, ah the 
aroma of fresh doughnuts and cider!  Now on to a brewing question.
As I was fighting a honey bee for the right to drink my cider alone I though
of making a batch of cyser and maybe a braggot.  I did some research
when I got home, I have Charlie P's Mead book and another mead text and they
both mentioned using "camden" (sp?) tablets before pitching the yeast.  I
guess the idea here is that the "camden" will kill any nasties in the cider
without having to boil it (avoiding pectin haze problems latter on).

I decided to make a cyser first, I boiled and cooled the honey and 
added it to the cider in the carboy along with 10 of the "camden" tablets,     
this set for about 30 hours with only a paper towel over the opening.  Next I
pitched a 1qt. healthy yeast starter, it's been 24 hours and I see nada, zip,
nothing happening.  Any ideas?  Did I forget something, doesn't "camden" kill
bacteria and organics and if it does wouldn't this be bad for the yeast?
This is my first time to try any type of mead and I'm not worried but 
curious about the above procedure and would appreciate more info.  

Part two of this adventure will be the making of the Braggot, as there will be
no fruit content in this brew I will simply follow normal brewing procedures 
with the addittion of the Honey to the boil.  My question here is should the
honey be added for the full boil or for only the last 15-30 minutes (just
enough to kill off any wild yeasts and bacteria).  If included for the full
boil (60-90 minutes) would it have any effect on the hops utilization? 
 
TIA 8^)
Chris_Cooper at hp.com  Pine Haven Brewery (aka. Debbi's kitchen)
"If ya don't know where you're going, how will ya know if you're there?"


Chris Cooper , Commerce Michigan    --> Pine Haven Brewery <--
Chris_Cooper at hp.com                 --> aka. Deb's Kitchen <--
 


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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:02:19 -0400
From: "Michael Gerholdt" <gerholdt at ait.fredonia.edu>
Subject: BrewPubbing in NY State

Question:

Does anyone here know re: New York State laws and codes - If one has a
restaurant/bar, are there additional permits necessary to serve beer which
has been brewed and fermented exclusively on the premise? Or is the
existing alcohol permit sufficient?

Thanks,

Michael Gerholdt

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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:15:26 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: Rock Bottom Cask Ale

Darrel Garton writes:

>I have 2 questions regarding Brewpubs in Denver that may have been
>visited during the GABF by some HBD'ers.  I was there the week before,
>teaching a seminar, and couldn't get back up for the GABF, but at least
>I beat the crowds!!!

>1.  Did anyone go to the Rock Bottom Brewery, and try their Cask
>Conditioned Ale?  It is their Red Ale (I don't remember the name).  I
>tried one, and I couldn't drink it.  Maybe the cask had been there too
>long, but it was bad.  If that was the problem,  after enough people
>tried it, they would have gotten into a fresh cask and it would have
>maybe been OK.  Did anyone else try this beer?  Did you try it early or
>late in the week?  What did you you think?  They tried to tell me it was
Lfine, but I'm afraid I've had too many real ales in the UK to buy into
>that.

I went to the Rock Bottom on Thursday right after I checked into my hotel.
I needed to warm up for the GABF (never do strenuous exercise without
warming up first). It was the closest brew pub to the hotel so the choice
was a no-brainer. I met up with one of the members of my brew club. He was
sitting with John ?? of Liquid Bread. It just so happens that they were
drinking the cask conditioned ale, so I ordered a pint as well. It was not
very impressive. Not a bad beer, but not one I would reorder. It seemed to
be popular, so I assume that it wasn't an old keg. 

The next pint was their bourbon stout. This was a good, flavorful stout
that was conditioned in an old bourbon keg. It picked up a nice, rich
flavor from the keg. This was an outstanding beer. One that I will remember
for a long time. It was definatly worth reordering but starting timer for
the GABF was approaching and I could hear all those hundreds of other beers
calling my name. 



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 09:59:04 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Mashing at 40C 


In reference to a beer Alexander (or presumably someone else) made
using a rest at 40C, he comments on phenolic off flavors that he
attributes to the mash:

>I
>think that this is pretty close to what I have tasted in some ales and I
>don't care for it.

I have using the 40-60-70 system for the last three years, and 
entered numerous competitions in that period with literally
of hundred of score sheets that came from the same. Many of the
judges are people on this network. Not a single evaluation even
mentions the term phenolic. I repeat my earlier advise. If you
are picking up off flavors like those I would pay a good deal
more attention to the yeast you are using.

Cheers.

George Fix



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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:57:34 -0400
From: "Larry F. Byard" <lbyard at gwi.net>
Subject: RE: 2L soda bottles

I've been using plastic soda bottles to bottle beer for about a year and 
they work well; they are certainly easier to fill than many 12 oz. glass 
bottles.  To clean them, fill a sink with hot water to a depth about twice 
the diameter of one of the bottles, add a few squirts of antibacterial hand 
cleaning soap and a dash or so of chlorine to the water, throw in all of 
the tops and let them soak (be careful not to let them go down the drain 
when emptying the sink), set the bottles on their sides and fill them about 
1/3 full, apply the tops, shake well, let them sit to the side of the sink 
for 10 minutes, empty the bottles, and rinse three times (or until you 
don't see suds) with hot water by filling them about 1/2 full from the tap 
with hot water.  Also, rinse-out the bottles two or three times with hot 
water immediately after consumption (soda or beer).  Additionally, I 
occasionally use 3 liter bottles.  When bottling, I usually fill some 12 oz 
bottles to sample the batch and for longer term storage.  Larry


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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:39:01 -0700
From: brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman)
Subject: rye mashing questions

I've got a question for anyone who has brewed with flaked rye.  Last Monday
I made a first attempt at a rye beer using 5# US 6 row, 3# US 2 row and 3#
flaked rye, with 14 oz. of rice hulls added to loosen the mash.  After a
painfully slow sparge I emptied the mash tun and I found quite a bit of
thick, pasty, sticky brown gunk stuck to the sides of the mash tun and all
over the false bottom.  This gunk was *very* sweet, which I'm sure is not a
good sign.  And my efficiency was below par at about 24 pt/#/gal.  Is this
paste normal in a rye mash?  I'm sure I lost quite a bit of sugar in this
paste.  How can I overcome this problem in the next mash?  I also had to
recirculate about 2 gallons of first runnings before the wort even
approached being clear.  The first 2 gallons were quite milky.  Is this
also normal?

Procedures:  I mashed-in  at  134 F, rested 25 minutes, pulled 5 quart
decoction which rested  at  155 F for 20 minutes, then boiled the decoction
for 5 minutes and returned the decoction for a mash rest  at  156 F for 75
minutes.  Sparge lasted 85 minutes and yielded 24 pt/#/gal.  My normal
sparges last 45 to 60 minutes and yield 27 to 30 pt/#/gal.

Any and all help appreciated!

jeff
casper, wy





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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:38:10 -0400
From: Danny Breidenbach <dbreidenbach at nctm.org>
Subject: When does one cease being "new"

I've seen folks on the HBD proclaim to be "new" to homebrewing and then
mention anywhere from two to thirty batched under their belt.  I guess
"new" is a state of mind ... after my twenty-six batches, I insist I am
not "new."  True, there are many, many people with greater experience,
but I still say I'm not "new" to the hobby.  

Be bold -- as soon as you can make beer you like to drink -- proclaim
yourself seasoned!

And to Bill Macher ---> I always choose something unfiltered when I
can.  I like murky beer --- makes you wonder what kind of goodies are
swimming about.   :-)

- --Danny Boy

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Date: 15 Oct 1997 10:01:24 -0600
From: "Andrew Avis" <Andrew.Avis.0519423 at nt.com>
Subject: None

                      Subject:                              Time:  9:53 =
AM
  OFFICE MEMO         None                                  Date:  =
10/15/97

Al writes:
>I don't see why he would lose 1/2 gallon twice.  The losses in the =
kettle
>are due to wort trapped in the break and hops.  Granted, there might be
>less break in the unhopped kettle (because hop tannins contribute to
>break formation), but losses to hops will be half as much in each kettle
>if you split the hops, no?

I split my boil between 2 18 L pots, split the hops, and lose just over =
one litre of wort (I know this because I measured it on Sunday).  I split =
the hops because I collect runnings in one pot, put it on to boil, and =
then continue with the second pot.  This means that the specific gravity =
is much higher in the first pot, which I suspect affects hop utilization. =
 I hope that by splitting the hops, I get an average utilization similar =
to what I would get with a single large pot.  Actually, it seems that the =
utilization is about 10 - 15% less what it should be (from tasting the =
final beer compared to what Suds says it should be).  I also understand =
that hops help precipitate the hot break, another reason to have at least =
1 hop addition in each pot.

Regarding the 1 litre of lost wort: I squeeze it out of the hops into a =
large glass jar and let the trub settle out.  I then pour it back into a =
pot, add 1 C of water, boil it for 20 min, and then can it in two boiled =
500 ml mason jars.  Works great for starters.

Drew
Calgary


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---