---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Brewery equipment available (KELLUMS1)
  new contest categories (AlannnnT)
  Stuck Fermentation? ("M. Duppong")
  Inquiry ("MARK.WARNER)
  Re: optimizing airlocks (Steve Alexander)
  Re: Gas -- Natural vs. Propane (Steve Scott)
  Connecting / cleaning 3 tier system (Cynthia Pekarik)
  Re: Extract good? (Matthew Arnold)
  White Labs yeast (Paul)
  180 lbs of barley (David Blaine)
  Dry Hoppping Question (Chris Tirpak)
  Water Chemistry Help! (Ronald Babcock)
  Murphy's Stout (VJ Mitchell)
  Re: Spices (emccormick)
  root beer (David Blaine)
  Hydrometer vs. Refractometer (Harlan Bauer)
  Extract Brewing (Dennis Waltman)
  Sparging (Dennis Waltman)
  Sulfury Wine/beer Yeast, ("David R. Burley")
  re: Steinbier ("Michel J. Brown")
  A fine working glass airlock design (Hector Landaeta)
  Electric Brewing / Fermentation Chiller (KennyEddy)
  Coffee Stout (William H Plotner)
  33 Qt Enamel Pots (Tom_Williams)
  Wyeast Fizzle (Nicholas Bonfilio)
  Homebrewery homepage links ("Thor")
  stainless steel welds - question ("Joe Sullivan")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:27:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: KELLUMS1 at aol.com
Subject: Brewery equipment available

Hi all,
I got a call Thursday morning from a Putnam Bank in Hennepin ILL, wanting to
know if I might be interested in any malt leftover from the recently bankrupt
Star Union Brewery. I was going to Elgin on Friday to drop off some entries
for the Spooky Brew competition, so I went ahead and stopped by Hennepin to
see what they might have. The malt was in pretty bad shape. It had been
sitting around since last January. I did manage to buy seven cases of new
beer bottles for $2 a case. Anyway, here's the rest of the equipment listed
for sale.

1-10 bbl Stainless brew kettl, gas fired 440,000 Btu's
1-10 bbl Staninless combination mash/lautertun
1 lot cartridge pediment water filters
1-Mueller 48 plate stainless wort cooler, heat exchanger.
1-portable centrifugal beer pump
4- Zahm and Nagel carbonators, master control unit, volume meter, air tester
1-Spedoni stainless steel diatomaceous earth filter with slurry feeder and
pump
1 lot misc. equipment and parts
80 bags of grain malt of various brands ( its in bad shape, bugs and mice)

1-Pearson top box sealer/Elliot case gluer with Nordson hot melt
1- Crown Cork and Seal 28 valve filler with 6 head crowner
1- SJI twist rinser with feed table
1- Krones universal body and neck labeler
1- lot stainless steel table top conveyors
1- reconditioned inspection light
1- bottle coder
1- centrifugal beer pump
1- glue pump
20 bags Diatomite at 50 lbs ea.
23 boxes bottle caps
1- pallet beer bottles, ( minus the seven I bought)
1- pallet cardboard boxes


1- Champion model BR10-12 air compressor
1- cooling unit for cold room
39 half barrel kegs
3 quarter barrel kegs

and also hand trucks, keg valves, water heaters, cabinets, sinks, and also
office equipment.


If you are *seriously* interested contact Harold Read, Vice President, Putnam
County Bank at 815-925-7373.

Thanks 
Mark Kellums

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:52:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: new contest categories

Not being the most creative guy in the world, I've decided to get help from
you all.
I am now planning the Second Annual Homebrew Contest to be held next March.
Our first contest was very sucessful but ordinary. For the next contest I
would like to offer alternative categories for the really good beer that
doesn't really fit well into the AHA style guidelines. I expect 125 entries.

Please don't spam me for encourging 'punk' brewing. I love a hoppy IPA just
like the next HBDer, I just think brewers make some funky stuff worth
judging. And the beginers are discouraged from entering by the guideline's
fine print.

Current alternative category ideas include;

1.Beers brewed with at least 25 ingredients.
2. Don't know what it's called, but it tastes good.
3. At least 50 HBU's [or 60] 
4. No hops at all. [How many spruce beers can YOU judge?]
5. My first beer.

Well, as you can see I need help with interesting categories. I would like to
encourage newbies to enter and I think the AHA styles are too rigid for some
casual brewers. My experience last year was that many newbies had good beer
that they entered in the wrong category because they didn't have the
understanding of the guidelines they needed. Any help? private email ok.

Thanks,
Alan Talman

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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:35:39 -0600
From: "M. Duppong" <mduppong at cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Stuck Fermentation?

I'm brewing up a Brewer's Resource Brewtek American Brown Ale, using the
Wyeast that came with the kit- an American 1056 (I think).

Primary fermentation was for 6 days at 68F.  Racked to secondary, stored in
a dark 64-66F closet.  So far, I have yet to see one "blurp" from the
airlock (from my casual observations in the last week).  Me thinks the
secondary is stuck.

My question is, what do I do now?  Do I add priming sugar and bottle?  Do I
try to get the yeast working again?  If so, how?

Mike Duppong
Filer, ID  USA


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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:57:46 EDT
From: "MARK.WARNER at CCRS.NRCAN.GC.CA"
Subject: Inquiry

Hello, all.  I'm pleased to finally be receiving this list again, having been
absent from the e-mail 'airwaves' for about six months.

I was wondering if anyone out there could please tell me how to re-subscribe to
the Mead Lover's Digest list?  I can't seem to find the address anywhere, and
being a brewer of many and diverse nectars, I would also like access to that
list.

If you would be so kind as to reply to me via e-mail  at 
mark.warner at ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca, I would be most appreciative.

Many thanks, in advance, for your assistance.

]\/[ark
   ]/\[arner

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:12:07 -0400
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: optimizing airlocks

Dave Whitman provides thoughtful response to the airlock question ...

>>An ideal airlock would allow no potentially contaminated air into the
>>fermentor, nor would it allow any atmospheric O2 into the fermentor.  A
>>HEPA filter helps with the first problem, but is hopeless regarding the
>>second.  It would seen that only an impermeable cover or membrane would 
>>keep O2 out.  Just how permeable to oxygen are oils, other liquids ?
 ...
>As long as the airlock is actively bubbling, CO2 evolution will provide
>sweeping action and the O2 level will be EXTREMELY low. Once bubbling
>stops, diffusion will begin, although I suspect the rate is too low to
>worry about. 

No - the gases diffuse thru the airlock during active fermentation too,
tho perhaps more slowly.  The extra turbulent mixing during active
fermentation increases the diffusion - doesn't eliminate it.  However my
main concern with O2 is after fermentation has slowed since presumably
oxygen introduced during the ferment will be quickly used by the yeast
anyway.

> That said, the diffusion rate will be proportional to the
>exposed surface area of the fluid.  As such, a narrow "S" airlock may be
>better than a wide concentric one for long term storage.

The diffusion also is proportional to the concentration gradient from
outside to in, so a rather long tube should help too. Surface tension
tends to keep the bubbles large, so a considerable amount of liquid must
move in a long thin airlock  in order to pass a bubble.
 
>CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics has some information on O2
>diffusivity in liquids.  Unfortunately, neither water nor oil is in the
>table, but FWIW the 02 diffusion rate goes down by a factor of two in the
>series CCl4 > cyclohexane > ethanol.  This suggests that more polar liquids
>are better than less polar ones.  (This makes sense since O2 has is has
>very low dipole moment).  My best guess is with an even higher dipole
>moment than ethanol, water is a very good choice of airlock liquid for
>keeping out O2. 

My CRC says that the order is cyclohexane>CCl4>ethanol, not your order
(see below).
Here I've included the dipole moments, also from the CRC.
						
                         Dipole moment  O2 diffusion
                         10^18 esu      *10^5 cm^2/sec 
CCl4(carbon-tetrachloride)	~0			3.71
cyclohexane					??-low		5.31
ethanol						1.69		2.64	
H2O							1.85		??

Tho' dipole moment may be part of the story, I'd really like to see a
more physical explanation than a trend drawn from 3 data points. 
Incidentally H2 has it's lowest listed diffusion constant for
ethylene-glycol (dipole moment = 2.28) which has a much higher dipole
moment than other more H2 diffusive solvents.

>Other advantages of water include low toxicity, low volatility, no adverse
>effect on heading, ...

True, but there are many solvents that are non-toxic and non-volatile.
Mineral and vegeable oils and gylcerine come immediately to mind. A
properly designed airlock shouldn't allow for suck-in of the airlock
fluid anyway. 

>CO2 makes a great blanket gas for protecting O2-sensitive materials, since
>it's heavier than air.  Cl2 is even heavier, and would easily sink through
>a CO2 blanket.  I wouldn't add bleach to airlock water.

Nice myth - protective CO2 blanket, but this isn't how gas diffusion
works.  The CO2 and O2 (and N2) don't remain separate for long, but thru
brownian motion mix in spite of the CO2 being heavier. I agree with the
bleach comment - Cl has other negatives too, but the O2 does diffuse
into the CO2 blanket a fermentor, and that the CO2 blanket diffuses
out.  Take a bucket and fill it with CO2 from a tank.  Dropping a match
in immediately after filling - the match will go out at it hits the CO2
'blanket'.  Try it again after waiting a few tens of minutes - then the
match doesn't go out.  Putting a layer of water in your airlock slows
but doesn't stop the diffusion process.  If would be nice to find a
better choice than water if possible.

My real concern is the amount of non-enzymatic browning, and resultant
staling that can place in a fermenter left for days/weeks after
fermenation ceases with an airlock.  The amount of browning that occurs
is quite obvious - I've spoken with several other brewers who are also
familiar with this effect.  Since I travel quite a bit a fermenter may
sit for several weeks to several months after fermentation slows. First
clearing occurs as the yeast drops, then, a variable length of time from
several weeks to several months the beer darkens remarkably.  This
doesn't have an immediate flavor impact, but isn't a good sign.

Steve Alexander


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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:50:56 -0400
From: sscott at lightlink.com (Steve Scott)
Subject: Re: Gas -- Natural vs. Propane

On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:13:18 -0400, you wrote:

>First off, I know what comes out of my LP tank, but what do you call
>"natural gas"? (and don't say "a fart" -- I mean the stuff you cook
>with!)

Actually they're both the same thing - methane.

>I know this next question has been answered before, but I always get
>confused.  I've got my cajun cooker -- or some compatible propane
>cooking device.  If I want to have a natural gas line dropped down into
>my basement to use this puppy, what conversions are in order?  Please
>use small, common words, for when it comes to topics such as this, I
>feel much like Winnie ther Pooh (a Bear of Little Brain).  If I need to
>go to the hardware store and ask a helpful person to put all the parts
>in a basket for me -- let me know.  I can do that!  Also -- does the
>cost of converting a (paid for) LP cooker end up being more than buying
>a natural gas cooker?  Where does one find natural gas cookers of this
>type.

The major problem with converting a cooker such as this or finding a
methane cooker is that they're both designed to be used outdoors.
Neither has any means of shutting down the gas flow if the main burner
goes out.  This is especially scary when considering the amount of gas
this could dump into your house in just a few minutes.  1 cubic foot of
methane has slightly more than 1000 btu.  So your 100,000 btuh burner
would dump 100 cubic feet per minute.  Find a burner that will shut down
the gas valve if the flame goes out if you're planning on brewing
indoors.


** The problem with the average family today is that it's=20
impossible to support it and the government on one income.

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:26:57 -0400
From: Cynthia Pekarik <74163.1163 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Connecting / cleaning 3 tier system

Hello HBD folks
        Concerning Darren's questions on fittings to connect his system.
My system including HLT, Boil Kettle, Mash-Lauter Tun, CF Wort-chiller an=
d
RIMS are all connected by SS tube......5/8" OD except down to 3/8"OD befo=
re
the chiller. I used brass compression fitting with 1/2" MPT to 3/4" brass=

female
garden hose fittings. On the 1/2" ball valves of each brew vessel, I used=

1/2"
MPT to male 3/4"garden hose fitting. So all my connecting tubes have fema=
le
garden hose fittings on each end and all my vessels have the male GH
fitting.
        A friend in an industrial hose shop banged me out some hose
seals made of food grade white neoprene for the garden hose fittings.
        I use teflon tape on the threads before installing the ball valve=
s
and =

sealing has never been a problem regardless of SS or Brass valves. =


        No connecting tube is longer than 2 feet which fit into a pail fo=
r
easy
cleaning / sterilizing. I remove the ball valves (with 3/4" male GH fitti=
ng
still attached)
from my boil kettle and Mash-tun between brews and  soak in Idophors. On
brew day,
I rinse valves in boiling water and re-thread to vessels.
        Note: With the GHF's, retighten all connects when hot liquid is
flowing
to ensure good seal and wear gloves.
        How many times can you reconnect a compression fitting? I attach =

and frequently undo my sparge sprinkler and RIMS return to mash tube. Nev=
er
leaked in two years use.  I always use brass ferrels, even if the rest of=

the
fitting is SS because I figure I might be able to "dremel" off an old
ferrel to repair
any future leak.  =

        Hope this helps... =

                Larry Kress =

                RR#22, Station Preston, Cambridge, Ontario,Canada
                Email: 74163.1163 at compuserve.com
        =


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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:06:05 GMT
From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Re: Extract good?

>I agree with Al that you can make good beer with extract, but with the
>available base malts I honestly believe that better beer is made all grain.
> Plus look at the amount of satisfaction you get from doing it youself.

I've been brewing with extracts for about a year now and have been quite
satisfied (with one notable exception, which was a result of a procedural
error, not extract itself) with the results. How is brewing with extracts not
"doing it yourself?" I choose what extracts and in what amount, I choose the
type of yeast (and I have used both liquid and dry), amount of specialty
grains, amount and timing of hop additions. My beer is very much done myself.

>Extract is a lazy way to make a batch of beer.  If you really enjoy the
>hobby then go for it make the best beer you can the same way the "Big Guys"
>do.

I'm sorry, but this is utter bunk. It is a cheap shot to call extract brewers
lazy. Many have neither the time nor the money to invest in an all-grain
system. Plus, if you're making good beer that you enjoy, why in the world would
you want to make your brew day twice as long? Yet it is still possible, with
quality ingredients and good procedure to make beer with extracts that rivals
the best craft brews and, yes, even all-grain produced brews.

Of course, this is coming from the same guy who said in HBD #2288 about those
who might consider no-sparge brewing:
>if you don't have the time to do it correctly why do you bother to brew
>at all.  If all you are looking for is alcohol then go and buy a cheap
>jug wine.  If you want a touch more then that then it is cheaper to buy a
>bottle of Irish whiskey or some Jack Daniel's.
Yes, that comment has been stuck in my craw for quite some time.

Sorry about the tirade but this really annoys me. And, yes, I am going to try
my hand at all-grain brewing as my previous posts have shown. Not because I
feel I _must_, but because it is something I've always _wanted_ to try. I can
very easily see myself brewing with extracts again, especially the recipes I've
particularly enjoyed.

It's enough to make you chew your own foot off, (--John Cleese)
  Matt

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 11:20:37 -0500
From: Paul <pedwards at iquest.net>
Subject: White Labs yeast

Chris White, president of White Labs, wrote in part to HBD:

>The homebrew yeast vials we produce are equivalent to concentrated pint 
starters.
>They are packaged at 1-2 billion cells per ml, so each vial ends up 
containing 
>30-50 billion  cells.

Right. And if people search the HBD archives, they'll find that Dr. White 
used to claim his vials of yeast had many times that amount until Jim 
Liddil and I proved him wrong.  Now as to whether the amount of yeast in 
the tube is sufficent for pitching into five gallons of beer, I guess it 
depends on what you call "sufficent". Certainly White Labs is selling you 
more yeast than Wyeast, but neither is sufficient in my mind for pitching 
directly. But a 12 hour lag time is just not aceeptable in my brewery.  
Better than the 24-36 hours from a swelled pack of Wyeast, but not 
acceptable.

Accepted pitching rates are from 0.75 to 2 x 10^6 cells per ml per Deg 
Plato of the wort (low end for ales, high end for lagers).  So for  5 
gallons (19 liters) of a 1.052 OG wort (about 13 deg Plato), I come up 
with 19000 ml times 13 times 0.75 x10^6 or 185 billion cells on the low 
end and about 500 billion cells on the high end.  That's anywhere from 6 
to 10 times the amount of yeast you're getting in the tube.  High gravity 
beers need even more.

Bottom line, make a large enough starter to get the quantity of yeast you 
need, oxygenate it well, and oxygenate your wort well, too. You'll be 
glad you did. 

If you can't or won't make a starter, just rehydrate a couple or three 
packs of Nottingham dry yeast. Just as all-grain beers aren't necessarily 
better than extract beers, liquid yeast, improperly handled or used, is 
not necessarily better than dry.

- --Paul Edwards




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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:05:53 -0400
From: i.brew2 at juno.com (David Blaine)
Subject: 180 lbs of barley

A co-worker told his farmer brother in law that I would like *some*
barley when he harvested this fall.  Said in law showed up at work with
*three* 60 pound sacks and relieved me of $20.  I don't mind the dough,
but I haven't a clue as to how to put any of this to good use.  I am an
extract brewer, and thought I might be able to germinate some of this and
make crystal malt with it to go with some of my ale recipes.  I am also
willing to experiment in using it as a base malt for some trial and error
brews since it's there and it's paid for.   I need some ideas on malting,
drying, and step mashing.  I have done single infusion mashes before in
partial mash pilsners.  The first time I tried to mash this I screwed up
and it went bad.  I saw rootlets but the "acrospire" never seemed to
grow.  Now I think someone said that the acrospire grows inside the husk,
so it may have been fully modified and I didn't know it.  After a couple
of weeks the whole thing just smelled sour.  I will add that this crop
was accepted as brewing barley, a good colored six row american, not feed
barley.  I would like to find out what I can do with equipment I have on
hand to use this grain over the winter.  it is in cool and dry storeage
now in the garage.  Private E Mail fine.  Any worthwhile results will be
forwarded to the masses.  TIA

Dave Blaine in Deckerville, Michigan
I.Brew2 at Juno.Com

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:25:14 -0600
From: Chris Tirpak <chris at tirpak.com>
Subject: Dry Hoppping Question

I just did my first batch of beer involving dry hopping and now need to
bottle or keg it and am not sure about what to do.

I added the hops when I racked to a secondary.  So now that I am about
to bottle or keg I need to know the best way to get rid of all the
hops.  I am thinking about a metal wire strainer or a cheesecloth. 
Anyone want to tell me what has worked for them?

I looked through the FAQ's at realbeer.com and went back through the
archives at HBD but everthing I found just talks about adding the hops.

Thanks,
Chris Tirpak
chris at tirpak.com

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:52:12 -0600
From: Ronald Babcock <rbabcock at rmii.com>
Subject: Water Chemistry Help!

Brew Masters,

With all of the talk about brewing water and my curiosity for knowledge I
could use some help as I am water chemistry challanged. I have a copy of
the treated water quality report (WQR) from my local water quality lab but
this thing is forty pages long. I have narrowed it down to one page that
looks like it pertains to the information I need. By looking at Brewers
Workshop (BW) I see the following water chemistry fields for Tap Water
Ions: Ca, Na, Mg, Cl, SO4, CO3, HDNS and TDS. I have all the numbers I need
except for CO3. Now in the WQR under "General" Ca is expressed as CaCO3 (82
mg/L) and under Metals there is Ca (31.2 mg/L) by it self but no CO3
anywhere else that I could find. BW has two fields one for Ca and one for
CO3. How do I figure the CO3 from the CaCO3. Do I just subtract the Ca
amount from the CaCO3 or is it more complicated than that. Is there more
information required to figure this out.

TIA, Ron

Ronald Babcock - rbabcock at rmii.com - Denver, CO
Home of the Backyard Brewery at http://shell.rmi.net/~rbabcock/

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:43:06 -0700
From: VJ Mitchell <VJMitchell at asu.edu>
Subject: Murphy's Stout

Hello to all!  It has been a long long time since my last post.  I am
curious if any of the Stout Guru's here has a recipe (preferably
extract/partial-mash) that resembles or possibly clones Murphy's Irish
Stout?  Any info would be fantastic!!  E-mail works for me!


Vince Mitchell
VJMitchell at asu.edu

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:47:11 -0400
From: emccormick <emccormick at usa.net>
Subject: Re: Spices

    Dennis Putnam asked about spicing up an ale for the
holidays...
    While you can add whatever spices in whatever way you
want (almost all ways work),
a best bet is to brew a tea you can add at bottling time.
You can control the effect that
way and add just to suit your tastes and no more.
    Adding to the primary or secondary, while it makes for a
wonderful smell in the house,
probably drives off most of the aromatics you would want to
preserve. The same can
be said for adding pre-boil or during the boil. You lose
more than you gain I would
think.
    If you are REALLY worried about sanitation, what you
could do is to place the spices
in a canning jar with the water and pressure can them long
enough to sterilize the tea.
You do it just as if you were canning vegetables.The spices
stay in until you are ready to
add the tea at bottling time. Most of the aromatics will
still be there and the tea should be
about as sterile as you can make it. Can't say I've tried
it, but its worth thinking about if
you have access to the pressure canner and nothing better to
experiment with at the time.
- --
<Ed McCormick - e-mail: emccormick at usa.net>



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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:37:21 -0500
From: i.brew2 at juno.com (David Blaine)
Subject: root beer

i.e. non-alcoholic root beer.  Made some from extract this summer.  Was
nervous about putting yeast in that much sugar water and capping it up. 
Only used 1/2 tsp. of dry ale yeast and mixed it up and bottled.  Waited
for a few days for explosions and then waited a few weeks to try it after
nothing blew up.  When we sampled there was NO carbonation at all.  Never
developed any over 4 months the stuff was arround.  Still made fairly
good root beer floats.
Now I want to try this again WITH carbonation.  So will someone tell me
how to bottle condition this without blowing up the basement?  How much
yeast can I / should I use?  What kind?  Why doesn't it blow up?  I will
be storing at about 65 degrees F. and don't have room to refrigerate it. 
Private E Mail OK.  This is a good way to get the family interested in
brewing since 4 out of 6 aren't old enough to drink beer yet.  TIA

Dave Blaine in Deckerville, Michigan
I.Brew2 at Juno.Com

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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:51:01 -0600
From: blacksab at midwest.net (Harlan Bauer)
Subject: Hydrometer vs. Refractometer

After reading "How to Get the Most out of Your Measuring Instruments" in the
most recent issue of Brewing Techniques, I decided to check the accuracy of
my "trusty" hydrometer. It was a real eye-opener! First, I checked it in
distilled water, something I had done before: 1.000, just like it should be.
Then, following the instructions in the article, I measured 50-g NaCl into
my 1000-mL volumetric flask (Class A). The gravity should have read 1.050,
but instead read at 1.035. Not even close.

So, my question is, do I go out and buy a new hydrometer (actually, I'd get
two, one specifically for measuring F.G.), or do I spend the extra money and
get a refractometer? It seems to me that the biggest advantage of getting a
refractometer is its smaller sample size--I could take readings at any stage
in the brewing process without having to remove a 250-mL sample each time. 

What are your opinions on this matter? Recomendations? 

TIA,

Harlan

   
         Harlan Bauer              ...malt does more than Milton can   
        Carbondale, IL             To justify God's ways to man.       
     <blacksab at midwest.net>                          --A.E. Houseman   
   


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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:40:26 -0500
From: Dennis Waltman <waltman at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Extract Brewing

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:50:53 -0500
From: Bill Giffin <billgiffin at maine.com>
Subject: Extract Good?

>>Bill Said
I agree with Al that you can make good beer with extract, but with the
available base malts I honestly believe that better beer is made all
grain.   Plus look at the amount of satisfaction you get from doing it
youself.  Extract is a lazy way to make a batch of beer.  If you really
enjoy the hobby then go for it make the best beer you can the same way
the "Big Guys" do.
- -----
To say that extract brewers are using the lazy way, is to say that
bakers are lazy because they don't grind their own flour.  Extract and
partial mash brews can be very good; I'm sure I've seen Gold Medal NHC
winners that are extract, and I know personally they are among the other
medals.  I can say that all-grain beers are among my best beers, and
they also have been among my worst beers, though my (by brew-partner and
I actually) best award was for an accidental partial mash  (I thought I
was steeping but later learn the grains I used had starch to convert. 
Since I don't think I was a starch beer, something converted.)

When an extract brewer uses the lightest malts, and darkens and flavors
the beer with specialty grains steeped or partial mashed, uses unhopped
extract, liquid yeasts with starters, proper aeration, water
preparation, keeps the fermentation temp constant and low, uses
finings,  and more, I would not call that person lazy.  One can get
plenty of satisfaction from the work.  Does one call an all-grain brewer
who filters and force-carbonates lazy because they take the 'easy' way
out?

The last pair of beers my brew-partner and I made were extract/specialty
(two in a day); the beer before was all grain (a triple decotion), it
depends on the time one has and the amount of hassle one can put up
with, and whether to try and convert a former good recipe to all-grain. 
Good beer can be the result either way.

Dennis Waltman

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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:46:22 -0500
From: Dennis Waltman <waltman at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Sparging

With the exception of getting more of the sugars present in the mash,
what other benefits are there to sparging?

Or if spending a few extra dollars for a few extra pounds of grain is
not a problem what elements of beer are being missed by not sparging?

I understand that some have reported a malty-er beer with the no-sparge
method, and that I believe I have tasted that, but what is being missed
by skipping the sparge except time spent at that task.

TIA

Dennis Waltman

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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:07:33 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sulfury Wine/beer Yeast,

Brewsters:

Mike Allred replies to another HBDers question about using S, Cerevisiae
designated as "wine yeast" versus S. Cerevisiae designated as "beer yeast=
".

Mike got the following results in his experiment:

> I brewed
>a batch of brown ale in september that I ended up using wine yeast in
after
>a stuck fermentation.  It's been carbonating for about 6 days now and I
just
>popped the cap on my first bottle.  It tastes like a normal neutral beer=
,
>but has a definate sulfur smell to it that is very distracting.  I poure=
d
>the majority of the bottle down the sink.  Will this mellow with age?

Well, Mike, as you know from beer brewing, yeasts can produce a variety o=
f
tastes in beer, depending on the strain and the nutritional content of th=
e
wort.  If you used Montrachet as the strain of wine yeast, the sulfur sme=
ll
is a typical result of this yeast. In winemaking, I avoid it by racking
early and often as I believe it is subject to autolysis and produces
hydrogen sulfide. In winemaking, for extreme cases,  I sometimes resort t=
o
a copper sulfate treatment , but often it disappears over time as the win=
e
is racked.  I can't promise you the same here, since you probably bottle
conditioned and have a layer of yeast in the bottom of the bottle. It may=

get worse with time. =


For those sparkling barleywine makers and mead makers. S Bayanus (  Red
Star Premiere Cuvee or aka Prisse de Mousse and  Lalvin 1118) will fermen=
t
to about 18% alcohol and not give this smell. =

- ------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:58:20 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: Steinbier

>As I recall, Steinbier is made by pouring wort
>OVER hot rocks and *not* by putting hot rocks
>INTO the wort, nicht wahr??

Nine, mein freund! Actually it is made by heating Graywacke rocks to 1200'C
then dumping them into the boiling tun and allowing the wort to boil and
caramelize onto the rocks which are then allowed to cool and be returned to
the fermenting wort. As a citizen of Coburg, Germany, I can personally
attest to this. TTYL, God Bless, ILBCNU!

			    Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.
        		              homemade at spiritone.com 
	           http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
	               "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                           "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                                       Big Man Brewing (R) 1996

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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 15:01:44 -0400
From: Hector Landaeta <acarrasc at reacciun.ve>
Subject: A fine working glass airlock design

Hello everyone! I really think I shouldn't expand a thread so =
unsolicitedly "colorful" as Steve Alexander's (HBD #2539) posting =
about airlocks, but with the questioner (Joshua Penney) in mind I =
will carry on.  Being forced by geographical isolation (I live and =
brew in Venezuela -not a single homebrew supplies retailer around =
here yet-), I had to explore all possible alternatives to a costly =
overseas cargo and customs deal before buying any accessories =
States-side for my recently found hobby.  By a lucky chance I =
happened to get in touch with a laboratory glass artisan in the =
capital (Caracas, pop. +10 MM), who hand makes and repairs all type =
of lab glassware.  Put to the question of reproducing my broken "S" =
type glass airlock, the man told me he could make me a much better =
and smaller airlock.  Next day, Gabriel (his name is Gabriel Bukor), =
had made this incredibly simple device that he says is lab tested to =
withstand a lot more intake pressure than what my 4,75 gal. glass =
carboy setup could generate by cooling after initial fermentation, =
without sucking any barrier liquid (he insists I use only tap water), =
which the device uses in only minute quantities (3 or 4 drops).  =
Without any fancy equipment I once put my lips to the stopper side of =
it and sucked to see if he was right, and indeed the device didn't =
allow any of the water into my mouth.  On the other side of it's =
performance, the excess CO2 escape part, It works very well.  I now =
substitute the bubble counting present in some fermentation vigor =
sounding instructions to airlock clicks.  You see, the airlock works =
this way (please bear with my rough ascii sketch):


(            )
|            |
|  (------)  |
|  |      |  |
|  | |  | |  |
|  | |  | |  |
|  | |  | |  |
|  | |  | |  |
|  | |  | |  |
 \~|~|~~|~|~/
  \  |  |  /
   \ |  | /
    \|  |/
     |  |
     |  |
     |  |
     |  |


There is a small unitank shaped cylinder (1,25" dia. x 2,5" tall) =
that is intersected by a small diameter tube (0,30"dia x 3,5" long), =
then there's the "movable part" (and only draw-back I see in this =
design because If you're unmindful it can get lost), the inverted =
midget test tube with a little more diameter than the intersecting =
tube, that you insert in it and whose "lips" should always be in =
contact with the barrier liquid (represented with tilde marks in the =
sketch), and which acts by going up to let the gas bubble escape, =
then down through simple gravity to close the airlock as soon as =
pressure diminishes, emitting a distinctive clicking sound.
The reason I represent this airlock here is that though I sincerely =
doubt it comes originally from Gabriel's fervent mind, I have never =
seen anything like this device in any homebrew supplies catalog (and =
I've studied a few).  I always see this look-alike plastic airlocks =
that I have never purchased because I prefer glass over plastic =
anytime for this application (try to wash a plastic airlock by simply =
boiling it 15 minutes then to sanitize it by a 2 hour 250=AA regular =
oven bake), then, compared to your regular "S" shape airlock, even as =
it is a little more complicated to manufacture (Gabriel charged me =
the same for making one or the other from scratch, a little less than =
$6), it's almost half the height of the latter, thus saving you some =
storage space.

Salud, amigos!

Hector Landaeta
Caracas, Venezuela.

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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:29:49 -0500 (EST)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Electric Brewing / Fermentation Chiller

Chas asks about electrically heating water.  He wants 5 gal to go to 190F in
20 minutes.

A formula for figuring the power required to raise a certain amount of water
to a certain temerpature is

P = 150 * gal * (temp-rise) / minutes

The 150 is actually a little higher than the "ideal" coefficient but this way
it accounts for some inevitable heat loss (and is easier for me to
remember!).

Plugging in Chas' specs (assuming 70F starting) we get 4500W.  On a 240V
circuit this is around 19 amps.  So a standard 240V 4500W element ought to
work nicely  (**WITH A GFCI BREAKER!!!**).  This would require almost 40A on
a 120V circuit, which is practically out of the question, unless two separate
dedicated 20A circuits were used.  This is the nice thing about splitting the
240V dryer circuit into two 120V circuits -- you get the 30A capacity, plus
you can use $6 120V GFCI's installed in 50-cent boxes nailed to your brewery
framework instead of having to install a $100 240V GFCI in your breaker panel
(and pay an electrician on top of that).

Note that when heating water, scorching due to high power density isn't an
issue, as it would be in a mash tun or boiler.  For those applications, one
would want to spread the heat out over multiple elements; aim for less than
25W/sq-in as a no-scorch target.  In my boiler, for example, I use two 240V /
4500W elements, each running off one 120V phase of the 240V line, which gives
me 1125W on each element, but at a low enough PD to prevent scorching.  Seems
I remember that my PD is somewhere around 20 - 25 W/sq-in, and I have no
trouble with scorching or caramelization.  This arrangement, however, is not
adequate for such rapid heating as Chas requests, but again, you can get away
with high PD when heating plain water.

*****

Matt asked whether I have any experience with / information on adding
electromechanical refrigeration to my Fermentation Chiller design.

Nope, not personally, but there are many possible approcahes to this.  One
way is to simply add a small "room" onto the front of a fridge.  Remove the
door and build an insulated box that can attach to the fridge.  Basically an
extension of the original fridge.  Either the whole fridge can be
temperature-controlled, or the box can have a thermostatically-controlled fan
rationing the cold air, much like the Chiller.

One could use a little cube fridge (~$100) as a cold source.  Remove the door
and you have a relatively compact source of enough cold air to keep one or
two fermenters happy.  I read here once where a guy was making "wine cellars"
by actually carving away the plastic & metal shell of such a fridge, then
building the remaining fridge "guts" into a cabinet and adding a thermostat.
 Great idea, and you don't have to mess with disconnecting and reconnecting
the refrigeration circuit.

You can duct the Chiller to a fridge or freezer; run one duct from the
freezer to the Chiller and another from the Chiller back to the fridge to
"conserve" cold air by recirculating it.  The thermostat in the Chiller will
take care of pulling cold air when needed.  The Chiller can be reduced to a
simple box, with the "IN" duct feeding the fan, while the open exhaust notch
would feed the return duct.  Such an arrangement can be added to a chest
freezer in a similar way to adding taps -- build a wooden "collar" for the
freezer between the box and the lid, and add holes to the collar for the
ductwork.

*****

See my web page (http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy) for ideas & related info
on both of these topics.

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:02:24 -0700
From: billp4 at juno.com (William H Plotner)
Subject: Coffee Stout

Greetings,
I have an oatmeal stout that will be bottled next weekend. My question to
the knowledgable collective is this: I would like to add some coffee
flavor to a few bottles at bottling time. What would be the best way to
do this? I'm not at all sure if I would like it so, I will do only around
4 12 oz bottles.
Thanks for any and all help
Bill Plotner
billp4 at juno.com
Colorado Springs, Co

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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:10:02 -0400
From: Tom_Williams at cabot-corp.com
Subject: 33 Qt Enamel Pots


Richard Gardner <rgardner at papillion.ne.us wrote:
"On a related matter, I saw 33 Qt pots (8 gallon+), blue enamel on steel,
at "The 1/2 Price Store" (a chain in the midwest) for $14.99 this weekend."

Anybody know where I can find something like this in the Atlanta area?
Tom



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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:27:39 -0800
From: Nicholas Bonfilio <nicholas at Remedy.COM>
Subject: Wyeast Fizzle

Last Friday evening I activated my Wyeast #1056 packet (dated September) so
I could brew Saturday night or Sunday morning.  Usually on Saturday I see
that the package is pretty well swollen--a sign of activation.  This
Saturday, however, it didn't look like anything happened.  So I decided
that I better wait until Sunday.  Sunday morning and afternoon passed and I
notice that it still hasn't activated.  I decided to toss the envelope and
go get a new one from the local brewshop and try to brew sometime during
the week.

After some thought, I retrieved the envelope from the trash and decided I
should see if the contents are salvagable in any respect.  My only chance
is HBD.ORG!  Is the yeast in it worth salvaging?  If anyone has a
suggestion as to what I should do with the package please let me know.
Thanks.

Nick

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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:50:50 +0000
From: "Thor" <thor at dnai.com>
Subject: Homebrewery homepage links



> From: dscourfi at ford.com (Darren Scourfield)
> 
> I'm in the process of building a 3 tier system using 
> stainless beer kegs (not very common in the UK).
> 

I thought I'd take this opportunity to list a few multi-tiered 
homebrewery system homepages that are available on the web. Many of 
these sites have helped me in designing my own system and probably 
many of those on the digest.  This is by no means a comprehensive 
list of homebreweries but are some of the ones I'm aware of that may 
be helpful to you. 

Constructing a 1/2bbl 3 Tier Brewing System by Scott Kaczorowski. A 
must see for the three tiered brewery builder. Well documented with 
sources and prices as well as how to. 
http://users.deltanet.com/~kacz/3_tier/3_tier.htm

A Two-Tier Converted Keg Brewing System by Marty Tippin Three keg 
system. Propane fired with rack. Hot Liquor tank elevated on top 
tier with the boil kettle and mash tun on the second tier. Extremely 
well documented. It has been a great source for brewery engineers. 
http://hbd.org/users/mtippin/2tier.html

The Portable Brewery.by Vance Sabbe
Portable brewery system with one keg and igloo coolers for the mash 
and hot liquor back. Very small footprint to be able to store it. 
Well documented. Has prices and supplier lists with discussion about 
brewing. 
http://www2.csn.net/~vsabbe/portabrew.html

Backyard Brewery by Ronald Babcock 
Three keg system. Propane fired with Hot liquor tank on the top 
and the Mash Tun and Boil kettle on the second tier. Inspired by 
Marty Tippin. 
http://shell.rmi.net/~rbabcock/

Jeff's nano brewery by Jeff Kane
Another Marty Tippin inspired brewery. Two tiered keg 
system. 
http://www.execpc.com/~jkane/beer/brewery.html

There are some additional sites that may be of help you that I 
didn't list because it didn't look directly related to your post. If 
you have a homebrewery homepage that I don't have on my list, send me 
an email and I'll add your site. The database I'm working on at 
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/links.htm.

THOR

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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 02:02:23 PST
From: "Joe Sullivan" <jpsully at erols.com>
Subject: stainless steel welds - question

Hi all,

I've been lurking for a while, and hope a metallurgist among us can give =
me an answer  (Mr. Palmer? ? ?).  I just had several SS couplings TIG wel=
ded onto a converted keg, and noticed that inside the keg around each of =
the welds is a dark grey slag.  It's only a small area around the couplin=
g, but I'm wondering if there is anything I can or should do to get rid =
of it.  Should I grind it out? Leave it alone? Buff it? What... What... =
What!!!

Sorry, but I want to make beer in this kettle, and I would rather do it =
right.

Thanks for any and all answers.

If there is interest I'll post a summary.

Joe Sullivan
Boston


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---