HOMEBREW Digest #2553 Mon 10 November 1997

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Yeast Slant Preparation/Cryogenics ("Rosenzweig,Steve")
  Lauter tun manifold (Mike Hughes)
  Yeast starter pH - followup (David Muzidal)
  RE: Traquir House (John Wilkinson)
  The Quest for S.S. (S&R Moed)
  Re: cleaning carboys/ long boils (John Wilkinson)
  Re: Carboy Cleaning ("William Warren")
  summery: cleaning carboys (michael rose)
  Decoction/Extract brewing (RobertS735)
  HEEEEEELP!  Advanced brewer can't make a decent brew. (Richard Soennichsen)
  Rootbeer, Yeast Starters, Abrupt end to fermentation (David Blaine)
  Chuckie ("Michael T. Bell")
  ColorpHast strips (Kit Anderson)
  RE: cleaning carboys & first Carboy ("Michael E. Dingas")
  RE: Another one for the Homebrew Lawers ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Oak chips in fermenter (Edward J. Basgall)
  cupric acetate (Edward J. Basgall)
  Charles-in charge, priming yeast ("Raymond Estrella")
  Verdigris, copper and acid, Part 2 ("David R. Burley")
  Verdidgris, copper and acid Part 1 ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Age of slants, yeast cultures ("Layne and Katrise")
  When to use secondary? (Tom_Williams)
  Verdigris, copper, acid part 3 ("David R. Burley")
  Stirrer (John_E_Schnupp)
  Verdigris, copper, acid, Part 2 ("David R. Burley")
  Donation Request... (Homebrew Digest)
  re:age of stant (Alex Paredez)
  Airlock - deadend. (Steve Alexander)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:23:03 PST From: "Rosenzweig,Steve" <Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com> Subject: Yeast Slant Preparation/Cryogenics I have a few questions on yeast slants, as well as a tip or two: Here is the procedure I used to prepare the slants: Boiled approx. 26 oz of p-canned all grain wort that hadn't sealed quite right. Added 2 pkg (1oz each) Knox Gelatin. Package indicated that 1oz was good for 2 cups liquid, so it seemed to be right amount. Turned heat off. Stirred in gelatin until dissolved. Poured jello-wort into 36 - 50 ml vials (American Science & Surplus!) TIP: Take aluminum pie tin and trace out holes for vials on bottom, cut holes with exacto knife - I fit 12 in the one that I made - may be able to fit even more. Put some water in bottom of pressure cooker (7 pint capacity cooker). Put in upside down pie plate, and place vials in holes. Loosely cap vials. Crank up heat and p-cook at 15# for 15 min - 3 sets of 12. Remove vials and let cool Tighten caps. Place on side in shoebox and set box at angle to give "slant" for max surface area. Problem: So far, the jello wort still has not really set very well. If the vials are rotated, the jello-wort will pull away from the sides, effectively ruining the sample. Question: Could this have been due to the pressure cooking? Or just not enough gelatin used? Or is this normal for all-grain jello-wort? Last February I prepared DME wort-jello just in a boiling water bath and those set really well (and luckily are still healthy and viable!) Note that upon refrigeration the slants do set up very well, and can then be set upright for cold storage, so the room temp stability is not a big deal, but if there is a way to improve my process, I'd like to find it. ************************************************************ The next step was to inoculate the slants. Last season I saved about 10ml of 4 different Wyeast wort from each package that I used in a boiled (sanitized) vial, then added about the same amount of glycerin to the vial for a rough 50% mixture and shook up the vial. I put a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the freezer to chill. When chilled, I poured the cold alcohol into a plastic container and put the vials into the container to fast chill the yeast. Then I put the covered container into the back of the freezer. BTW - Non frost free freezer (we need to defrost that puppy soon!) so the temp should have been stable. The samples looked good in the freezer, the yeast had settled out to the bottom, and the wort was clearly not frozen - the yeast resuspended easily. Four days ago I brought the samples out of the freezer, took them out of the alcohol bath, quickly warmed them in warm water. Then I inoculated 6 vials of each of the 4 frozen strains and 6 vials of a fresh strain. The result is that I have 6 vials of the fresh strain that look very good, but none of the frozen strains have yet shown any activity (4 days). Hopefully the yeast are just a little sluggish after a good 9 months in the deep freeze, but I fear that I may have inadvertantly committed yeasticide! IMYR??? Two other notes on the difference between this batch and last years DME batch. The DME batch was opaque wheras the new all grain batch is a beautiful golden color. The yeast in the DME batch seem much more numerous, you can see a distinct thick yeast cake on top, and even some growth inside some of the stabs I made. The yeast in the new batch seem less numerous, very thin, almost like a delicate web of yeast atop the slant. Maybe the DME batch was somehow more nutritious since I did not include much trub in the boil? If I don't see any activity after a full week or so, I may just inoculate the new slants from the old slants that still seem viable and healthy, but it pains me to think that my freezing process did not work - any ideas anyone? I may look into the sterile distilled water storage that has been given some press lately if my freezing process has failed. ************************************************************ Sorry for the length, but hopefully there was a grain or two of helpful ideas in there for prospective yeast ranchers. TIA for any insight on the all-grain jello-wort consistency, DME vs all-grain jello-wort differences, and any helpful critiques of my cryogenic processes. Stephen Erika the Red Ale in the keg Oatmeal Stout in the secondary PrePro Lager in the primary (still going after 12 days!) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:52:50 -0800 From: Mike Hughes <mikehu at synopsys.com> Subject: Lauter tun manifold Greetings - Thought I'd post the results of facing the slots upward on my copper pipe manifold in my lauter tun. I got this idea from an article in Brewing Techniques, which claimed that facing the slots upward would reduce channeling along the bottom of the cooler. Well, based on my hydrometer reading, it looks like this method is indeed more efficient. I usually get a OG of 1.068 for the recipe I used. With the slots facing upward, I got an OG of 1.074! My biggest fear was that facing the slots upward would clog them or let grain particles through. No such problems occured. I had to recirculate approximatley .5 gal to get clear runnings, and the sparge proceeded without a hitch after that. I'll be sparging with the slots facing upward from now on. Mike Hughes Double-Barrel Brewery Portland, OR Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:00:27 -0600 From: David Muzidal <Dave.Muzidal at dssc.slg.eds.com> Subject: Yeast starter pH - followup I just found the answer to my question. I was at a brewers festival a few weeks ago and a local homebrew shop was there handing out free back issues of various magazines. I happened to pick out the May/June 1994 issue of Brewing Techniques that contained an article by Karl King on yeast culturing (funny how things work sometimes!). I just got around to reading it (I forgot about it) and this article contained a section on preparing starter worts. It warns about using high carbonate water (such as I have) for yeast starters. The reason for this is the high pH of this water favors bacterial growth. It states that the pH of the starter wort should be no higher than 5.3. It suggests that if you are in doubt about your water, then use distilled water (although I guess pH corrections with phosphoric acid, etc. would be OK as well). There is also a section in the article by Dr. Maribeth Raines about Yeast Theory and its application to brewing. This section also reiterates the importance of yeast pH for the proper growth of yeast. I'm sorry if I am reitterating common knowledge here, but this is something I, as mostly an extract brewer, never gave much thought about. - Dave Muzidal Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 97 12:12:09 CST From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: RE: Traquir House In HBD #2551 Kenny said (among other things): >...The >key to this beer is a very long, vigorous and propane consumptive boil. >I made a batch and boiled the wort for 5 hours which made for a long >brew day but one damn fine Scotch ale. It has an incredible caramel >aroma and taste. The only problem I have with the 5 hour boil is the >reduction of beer (from 22 gallons to 12). I am curious about something. I thought that after about two hours of boiling, the hot break would redissolve in the wort. Since we generally try to avoid hot break, what does this do to the beer? If the hot break does indeed dissolve after a long boil and Traquir House uses long boils and produces good beer, why is hot break avoided by the rest of us? Are there other factors at work here or am I mistaken about long boils and hot break? Curious in Grapevine, John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:16:29 -0500 (EST) From: S&R Moed <bina at idirect.com> Subject: The Quest for S.S. Hi everyone, I have been searching for a short time now, for a Stainless Steel pot to boil full volume 5 gallon batches. I have been able to find new ones no problem, but the price is a problem. Calling restaurant suppliers for used stainless steel pots around here has not been fruitfull, these things are scarce! So I decided to look for a used beer keg (to cut the top off), talked to the guys at the beer store (no luck), I have no connections with any bartenders, I contacted scrap yards (they will not sell any, to valuable?), I even called some breweries. These things are gaurded like gold! So my questions are; 1. are all beer kegs Stainless steel? (some look like aluminium) 2. If I can't get S.S. which would be better; a heavy aluminium pot, or a enamel coated canning pot? (a good question for you metal guys) 3. Does anyone have any Ideas I may have missed, in my search? I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has been through this before, and also anyone in southern Ontario (Toronto area) who could be of help. Thanks in advance, Rob Moed Oakville Ont. Canada. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 97 13:36:21 CST From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: Re: cleaning carboys/ long boils Mike Rose asked about the best method for cleaning carboys used as primary fermenters. What has worked well for me is TSP. About 5 tablespoons in warm water soaks off all the crud in less than an hour with no scrubbing. TSP (trisodium phosphate) may not be available everywhere but I find it here in Texas in the paint departments of hardware or building products stores. It is used by painters to remove grease from surfaces before painting. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * A.J. wrote: >Lee B. asks if 30 seconds worth of pure O2 is enough to oxygenate 5 gallons >of wort. It depends on how vigorous the blasts, how good the stone (i.e. >how small the bubbles are) and the geometry of the container but the answer >is that 30 seconds probably is enough to get you to 8 mg/L dissolved >oxygen. What I have wondered is if 30 seconds of O2 is sufficient for 5 gallons of wort, why does it take so much longer using an air pump? If air is 20% oxygen why would it take longer than 2.5 minutes to adequately oxygenate a 5 gallon wort? Or does it? I used to use an aquarium pump and thought it had to be run for several minutes more than 2.5 to be effective. My problem with it was the foaming before what I thought was sufficient time for aeration. Is the gas flow that much less than that from an O2 cylinder? That may be it as I never had an air pump blow off my aeration stone but the O2 bottle sure will. What is sufficient time using an air pump? I realize this depends on air flow and the type of stone used but are there any rough guidelines? John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com Return to table of contents
Date: 7 Nov 1997 11:54:36 -0700 From: "William Warren" <wwarren at geron.com> Subject: Re: Carboy Cleaning = 11/7/97 Re: Carboy = Cleaning A possible to solution to your is to use a jet spray bottle washer. That = will rinse out some of the resdiue. The way I used to clean the carboys = was to use a solution mixture of bleeach and water. I would let soak = over night and finish the job with the evil carboy brush. Cheers! Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 12:16:28 -0800 From: michael rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net> Subject: summery: cleaning carboys Yesterday I posted a question on the HBD: What is the easiest way to clean a carboy after fermentation? 25 or so responses so far. All are about the same, fill with water, clorine and/or dishwasher soap/TSP/B-Brite/etc. Soak for 24 hours then rinse well. I was hopeing that someone would say "Oh I use the brand new wonder carboy brush" but no such responses. 3 responses said something like use carboy jet, jet rinser, jet washer. I don't know if they were refering to the bottle washer or if a washer designed just for carboys exists. If someone knows of a product or of a good design for a homemade one, please post. Thanks, Mike Rose P.S. I saw a picture of George Fix the other day, did he play the professor on Gilligan's Island? :^) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:45:14 -0500 (EST) From: RobertS735 at aol.com Subject: Decoction/Extract brewing Beer Friends: This morning I was making a batch using my normal extract technique which includes the addition of two pounds or so of grains, steeped, and I had a thought. If single or even triple decotion is a good thing for you all-grain guys, then would there be any noticeable effect of doing a decoction on my grains? What I propose is the normal two pounds of cracked grain steeped for the regular 20-30 minues at 158, then take the runnings and the grain to a boil. Then sparge and add to the LME and other liquid.... does this seem to have any potential? Any suggested alterations to this method? Opinions considered.... experience valued... thanks Bob Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:05:39 -0800 From: Richard Soennichsen <richas at pacbell.net> Subject: HEEEEEELP! Advanced brewer can't make a decent brew. I have been having much trouble with my beer lately. The last 10 or so batches have been really bad. I have brewed many many good beers in the past so I know I can do it! I have experienced off flavors ranging from slight to gross. The last batch was as bad as ever. It had a familiar off flavor as well as some nasty hoppy bitterness. Here are the specifics: The recipe: 9 lbs Hugh-Baird pale 1 lb Crystal 20L All mashed at 152 for one hour 1 lbs Munich Light Hops: 1oz Cascade at 60 min (60 min boil) 1oz Cascade at 30 min 1 oz Cascade at 10 min This equals (according to suds using the Tinseth method) 31.4 IBU Irish Moss (1 Tblspn ) at 30 min Wyeast 1056 started in 3/4 qt starter made from 1/3 DME I boil in a homemade SS keg/kettle. It has an out pipe and a SS false bottom. I cool with an immersion wort chiller. After cooling I drain into a seven gallon carboy, add the yeast starter, and agitate vigorously. Secondary is in a smaller carboy. I used to think the problem might be occurring in the keg somehow but the last batch was bottled and it was off as well. I sterilize with a bleach solution. About 3-4 tablespoons per 4 gallons. I use a 50% grain alcohol sol. In a spray bottle for localized sterilization. I hope someone has the magic answer because I have tried everything. Is there somewhere to send a bottle of beer to have it anaysised? Please help me, I love brewing to much to give it up! Rich Please e-mail richas at pacbell.net Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:01:48 -0500 From: i.brew2 at juno.com (David Blaine) Subject: Rootbeer, Yeast Starters, Abrupt end to fermentation Several people wanted to know what I found out from my request for your root beer experiences. Some of you said you had good luck and some bad. The sanest bit of wisdom was to use plastic soda bottles when making root beer. Some used ale yeast and some champagne. Some had explosions and gushers and others did not. The most logical reason why you could put a packet of yeast into four gallons of syrup and *NOT* get an explosion is that the yeast didn't make it after an initial burst of activity. I don't think that straight table sugar and water have the nutrients necessary to support a vigorous ferment, but that is just theory right now. I suspect that those who have had explosions did something to *help* the yeast out. The first thing that comes to mind is aerating the root wort. I will eventualy buy more extract and plan to use a full packet of champagne yeast and bottle in plastic bottles. If anyone who has experience and hasn't contacted me would care to comment I would sure appreciate it. I will post after the next batch is done. My .02 worth on starters. Stepped up a Wyeast packet in a single 16 oz starter for my last batch of Maple Porter. Pitched it while it was still bubling in the airlock, sometime after high kreusen. Thought I could see activity after two hours but wasn't sure. Got up that night after 6 hours and found strong fermentation in progress. Don't know why anyone would want to endure a 24 hour lag time when a starter is about as hard to prepare as instant oat meal!!! Same batch of Maple porter had been in primary 13 days (bad luck?) was down to two bubbles per minute. Moved carboy from bath tub to counter top (so wife could use tub) and fermentation stopped completely. This isn't the first time this has happened. What's the story? Yeast just doesn't like to be jostled in the final stages? Many thanks to all who tolerate newbies and are so helpful Dave Blaine in Deckerville Michigan I.Brew2 at Juno.Com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:55:41 -0500 From: "Michael T. Bell" <mikeb at flash.net> Subject: Chuckie In HBD #2551 Charles Hudak wrote: >You seem to be missing the boat there Jer. Maybe you should pay closer >attention. You don't need to use the whole batch. This clearly shows your >ignorance of the procedure which I am discussing. See HBD #2549 for an >outline of how to do the test. >"It is best to remain silent and be perceived ignorant than to open ones >mouth and remove all doubt" >BTW I *am* a homebrewer. How the hell do you think I ended up in a >commercial brewery? I homebrew 20+ batches a year as well as 100+ >commercially. You? (snip) >Oh really? And just how do you know this, or are you *assuming*. The whole >point of my post was to force people to back up their conjecture with hard >evidence. Content on remaining ignorant and scared? Your choice, but don't >blame me for your ignorance and please refrain from posting imcomplete >info on the digest which doesn't benefit all the brewers you claim to be >helping. > You don't sound like much of a scientist there Jeremy (and yes, I *am*, I >have a degree in chemistry) The scientific method which *I* was tought >seems to believe in the idea of experimentation to prove ones theories or >hypothesis. (snip) >I would expect >the use of more appropriate and correct terms from a scientist. Nothing in >a brewery is *ever* sterile only hopefully sanitary. I'm apalled that a >member of a university science department would confuse these two *very* >different terms (and concepts). Hey chuck, have one to many squeezes on that picnic tap tonight? Lighten up. He's right, your wrong. I bet you got beat up a lot in high school a lot, you can go ahead and tell us.............Doesn't feel good being treated like pond scum, does it. Dammit, I HATE jerks. Michael T. Bell BoomerDog Brewing Arlington, TX Michael T. Bell Boomerdog Brewing Arlington, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 09:38:27 -0500 From: Kit Anderson <kitridge at bigfoot.com> Subject: ColorpHast strips A homebrew shop owner would like to carry ColopHast strips. Can anyone tell me who makes them? Thanks. - -- Kit Anderson ICQ# 2242257 Bath, Maine kitridge at bigfoot.com "I had the right rib, but it musta been the wrong sauce." -Dr. John Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:16:13 -0500 From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net> Subject: RE: cleaning carboys & first Carboy Michael Rose wrote: <What is the easiest way to clean a carboy after using it as a primary <fermenter? I'm not happy with the carboy brush. <E-mail probably best for this remedial topic Actually, Mike, I'd kind of like to know how others are cleaning up, = too! I just bought my first carboy (at a craft shop no less!) and got = the other miscellaneous items (handle, cap, brush, funnel) at my local = brewshop. I know how nasty my plastic fermenter gets and am not looking = forward to cleaning the carboy. I also thought others would be interested to know that new 5-gal = carboys are available elsewhere (than mail order or brewshops). I paid = $9.95 at a craftstore called The Pottery. This store specializes in = craft items (dried flowers, pottery, vases, etc.) but also has a large = selection of other import items such as crystal, picture frames, = household items, etc.. Anyone having a similar store nearby and wanting = a carboy should check them out. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:33:44 -0500 From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net> Subject: RE: Another one for the Homebrew Lawers First, I'm not a lawyer but am contributing some common sense input. = (Knowing lawyers, my input will probably be pounced upon with great = fury!) Giving away beer avoids the issue of a liquour license and taxes but = would only pertain to you since consumption would occur at a licensed = establishment. So long as YOU don't sell your beer and produce more than = the law allows, you are in no trouble.=20 More to the point, I would think that once the owner has accepted the = gift and agreed to dispense the beer, it is no longer a matter of = concern for the generous donor. Now limiting overdrinking becomes a = concern for the bar-owner/bartender. If your beer is highly alcholic = (more so than store bought) I would make damd sure the owner (and = drinkers) were aware of this to permit adjusting their 'limit'. Hope your party is a hugh success!! Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:29:03 -0500 From: ejb11 at psu.edu (Edward J. Basgall) Subject: Oak chips in fermenter Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:39:12 -0800 From: Sheena McGrath <sheena at gte.net> Subject: Re: Rodenbach clone Dear Homebrewers: I have been thinking about making a Rodenbach clone. Since I don't have a barrel, I might use a plastic bucket and some wood chips. Does this sound feasible? Thanks to all who reply, Sheena - ----------------- Hi Sheena, I do this all the time for an oakey, tannin flavor. I use about 1 oz of oak chips (soaked in grain alcohol to sanitize) in my secondary fermentation. You could also heat sanitize them moistened with water in a microwave. It works nicely in my Belgian tripels. cheers ed basgall SCUM State College Underground Maltsters State College, PA Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:49:57 -0500 From: ejb11 at psu.edu (Edward J. Basgall) Subject: cupric acetate >Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:45:54 -0600 (CST) >From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> >Subject: verdigris >While looking up the spelling of something, I ran across "verdigris" in >Webster's dictionary. It is said to be the blue-green substance that >is formed from the action of acetic acid (vinegar) on copper and is >*poisonous*. Webster says it is made up of copper acetate...... >Presumably the copper acetate is very soluble in water? >Presumably rinsing well after cleaning with vinegar will render the >copper item safe for brewing again? Hi Al and HBD'ers, Such a quandry, FYI according to Merck Index, 11th edition. Cupric acetate is aka crystallized verdigris. Prepared by the action of acetic acid on CuO. It is soluble in water, alcohol, slightly soluble in ether, glycerol. It's LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of the test subjects) in rats is .71 g/kg. Rinse well and avoid using green discolored copper wort chillers. cheers ed basgall SCUM State College Underground Maltsters Edward J. Basgall, PhD The Pennsylvania State University Surface Chemistry Group ejb11 at psu.edu Materials Research Institute Building Ph: 814-865-0493 University Park, PA 16802-7003 FAX: 814-863-0618 http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejb11/ Privilege does not absolve one of ecological responsibility. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 97 17:18:09 UT From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com> Subject: Charles-in charge, priming yeast Hello to all, Charles Hudak rips on Jeremy, and in his own not-so-subtle way, any one that is not up to his higher than God standards. >You don't sound like much of a scientist there Jeremy (and yes, I *am*, I >have a degree in chemistry) The scientific method which *I* was tought >seems to believe in the idea of experimentation to prove ones theories or >hypothesis. Hmmm, You know, I've always thought, That tought was spelled taught. But Charles the scientist, thinks apparently not. (or is that, nought) Joe Sever asks about adding yeast at bottling time with his Barley Wine, >I've heard of good results from pitching yeast along with the priming >solution to ensure carbonation. How much yeast? Well, though I am not a scientist, and do not play one on HBD, I have added yeast at prime-time, in my Belgian Tripples. (The only style that I carbonate in the bottle.) I start with a fresh culture, (or smack-pack of Wyeast) and pitch it into a 500 ml starter. As soon as it is at high krausen I place it in the 'fridge to knock it out of suspension. I then pour off the excess liquid and add the slurry to the bottling bucket. The last one was a 10.1% alc /vol Tripple that carbonated great. It did still take 6 weeks at 73f to get there though, that is the nature of the beast with big beers. Pierre Rojotte discusses this technique in his Belgian Ale book. (I am not sure that he is a *scientist*, but he writes a pretty good book.) Hope that this helps, or at least entertains. Ray (not-a-scientist-commercial-brewer-WSTer-grammer pro) Estrella Cottage Grove MN USA ray-estrella at msn.com ******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ******** Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:09:45 -0500 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Verdigris, copper and acid, Part 2 Brewsters: We can, nevertheless, conclude that: 1) The reaction to dissolve copper coupled with an oxidation can proceed in a neutral = media. 2) This reaction requires only wet copper and oxygen from the air to proceed. The overall reaction of interest is Cu + O2 + H2O then H+ produces Cu ++ when the = reacted copper is placed in contact with acid. Oxygen as an oxidizer is unusual in = that it forms the other part of water and has a special place in this chemistry. I don't have the data here, but this actual oxidation of copper occurs with wet copper in contact with oxygen and produces lots of other oxides and hydroxides. These oxides and hydroxides can react with the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to form the complex cuprous/cupric carbonate/hydroxide hydrate which is relatively insoluble and is responsible for that beautiful green colored "patina" we see on roofs and other copper ornamented buildings and statues and copper pipes in our wet basement. Now, unlike copper metal, copper hydroxide IS soluble in acetic,hydrochloric and other protonium acids, as an acid/base reaction and not an oxidation reaction is needed. Likewise, the oxides are soluble in acids. So the copper hydroxide and copper oxide ( a reddish brown/ black coating you see on "aged" copper - and especially where you touched it) is soluble in these acids, but the metal itself is not. = So what's the bottom line for us brewers? = Keeping the brownish or greenish colors off of our copper equipment and tubing will prevent the dissolution of the oxides and hydroxides of copper into our wort/beer. How do we do that? = Wash with acid. Acetic acid or dilute hydrochloric (careful!) acid will easily remove this coating. Do this just before you use it, and keep things like bases ( aka alkaline soap powders) away from the copper unless used quickly ( i.e. not soaked) and rinsed with dilute food grade acids and then water before storing dry. How much copper are we talking about? Imagine a copper tube used as a chiller 5 cm in diameter and 1 meter long coated with a micron thick layer of copper hydroxide/oxide. = If we take two cylinders - one 5 cm in diameter and one 5 cm plus 1 micron, the difference in PiXdXh for each cylinder will be the volume of the coating. SO: (5cm + 10^-6 m)Pi X 1 m =3D V1 and 5cm X Pi X 1 m =3D V2 ergo V1-V2 =3D 10^-6XPiX1M = If we assume a micron thick layer as a beginning = point, then on a cylinder 5 cm in diameter = ( assuming PI is 3 as once proposed by the Missouri or Alabama legislature to make math easier) this is about 1x10-6 m X 3 =3D 3 X 10^-6 ml of Cu(OH)2 and with a density of about 2 gr/ml this would be about 6 X 10^-6 grams of Cu(OH)2 in 20 liters or about 0.3 X 10^-6 grams per liter or about 0,3 parts per billion for each micron = of thickness of the copper hydroxide on each meter of chiller tube. So a 10 meter chiller will yield = 3 ppb/micron of Cu(OH)2 in solution. How thick is the layer of copper hydroxide? = That depends.... Anybody?? = Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com = Voice e-mail OK = Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:09:52 -0500 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Verdidgris, copper and acid Part 1 Brewsters: AlK, on perusing a dictionary, came across a reference to "verdigris" defined as copper acetate and it set him to wondering about acetic acid in contact with copper in brewing, its solubility,copper ions in high concentrations being poisonous, etc. I don't have my alchemistry books in front of me, but I believe verdigris is actually a complex mixture of salts of copper, perhaps derived from the solution of copper oxides and = hydroxides with vinegar. Based on what I have read here on occasion, first let me shock some HBD readers. Metallic copper is NOT soluble in acid, unless the acid is also an oxidizer like con. Nitric. Ergo acetic, dilute nitric, hydrochloric acid as well as carbonic ( aka CO2 in water) acids do NOT dissolve pure metallic copper. = How do I know this? I look at the electrochemical series table in my trusty CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics and it says among many other listings: Cu to Cu+ is -.522V Cu to Cu++ is - 0.34V Both reactions have a negative potential relative to hydrogen/protonium. Hydrogen to the protonium ion ( H2 to H+ + 1 e-) is by definition 0 volts so there is no spontaneous = driving force for the hydrogen to take up = electrons from pure copper to form = cuprous or cupric ion. = This is unlike, say, zinc in which Zn to Zn++ is +0.768V and will give up electrons to the protonium ion forming hydrogen. Most readers know that zinc is spontaneously soluble in acid and = that it fizzes as the hydrogen comes off. However, we also note in the above referenced table: Cu + 2OH- to Cu(OH)2 + 2 e is 0.224V A positive potential. So copper should = dissolve in bases in the presence of an oxidizer to take up the electrons. That could be just water plus oxygen, so: 2H2O + O2 +4e- to form 4 OH-. is 0.401V = or another way of saying this is = 2Cu + 2H2O + O2 yields 2 Cu(OH)2 with 0.624V so the over all reaction has a positive potential and is therefore spontaneous in the thermodynamic ( not necessarily the kinetic) sense and there may be other reactions involving the = cuprous ion and formation of peroxides, oxides,etc.. Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com = Voice e-mail OK = Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:32:43 -0800 From: "Layne and Katrise" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com> Subject: Re: Age of slants, yeast cultures In HBD #2552 Saul Laufer writes; >While I have read that slants should be recultured every 2-3 months I recently pitched from a slant that was a year old (it got overlooked in the reculturing process) and stored in my beer fridge. The yeast was viable and produced a most delicious brown ale. I have not given up reculturing after 3 months but does anybody have opinions about keeping slants for longer periods (6 - 12 months).< Here's my opinion.... I recommend that slants and petrie dishes should be re-cultured every three to four months to maintain viable yeast. I have been keeping all my cultures from the past year to see what happens to them as they get older. I have one that is actually 15 months old now, (My very first culture). I use petrie dish cultures. Of the first six plates from 12 months ago I have two left. I discarded 2 when they were about six months old as they were contaminated. (Due I assume to being used repeatedly and taken out of the package so often.) The other two were tossed out just a month ago because the agar was starting to dry up and harden around the edges. The other two look as good as they did 11 months ago. I suspect that the viability will be quite low. Of the cultures I made 8 months ago they are all still fine. There are six as well and I only used them a couple times over the summer. I started with eight but two were lost within a couple weeks to mold. (I guess my technique isn't as good as it could be but this is why I make at least two or three cultures of each yeast I have.) Of the cultures from four months ago I have and use all of them still and I plan on re-culturing them next week. Last week I used my Wyeast 1028 culture to make a starter and everything was normal. The best reason to re-culture is to be sure the yeasts don't die on us. Obviously dehydration of the media takes a long time and infections can occur at any time but are more susceptible the more they are used or exposed to the air, our hands, etc..... I guess I could try an experiment to test the viability of the older cultures. What is the best was to set this experiment up? I have methylene blue, I think that is used to test viability. Maybe the best way is to try a yeast that is 4, 8 and 12 months old in 3 bottles of wort to see what the time difference might be for lag time, krausen (sp?) and full attenuation of a volume of starter wort. The only strain I have in all three ages is the Wyeast 1028. I'll wait to see what the collective's observations and suggestions are before starting this experiment. I would also like to get more info. in yeast viability testing as well. Cheers to all. What a great group of folks. Layne Rossi wetpetz at oberon.ark.com Campbell River, BC Http://oberon.ark.com/~wetpetz To try and fail is better than failing because we didn't try! Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:00:15 -0500 From: Tom_Williams at cabot-corp.com Subject: When to use secondary? Al Korzonas says: "I simply go three to four weeks in the primary on lagers (I *only* use a primary for ales) and then rack to a secondary,..." I brew pretty much all ales, and have been habitually using a secondary. I would be interested in some further discussion of the parenthetical phrase above. Tom Williams Dunwoody, Georgia Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:58:02 -0500 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Verdigris, copper, acid part 3 Brewsters: How much copper are we talking about? Imagine a copper tube used as a chiller 1.0 cm in diameter ( about 3/8 inch) and 1 meter long coated with a micron thick layer of copper hydroxide/oxide. = If we take two cylinders - one 1 cm in diameter and one 1 cm plus 1 micron, the difference in Pi/2Xd^2Xh for each cylinder will be the volume of the coating. SO:Pi/2X (1cm + 10^-6 m)^2 X 1 m =3D V1 and Pi/2X( 1cm)^2 X 1 m =3D V2. Vc =3D V1-V2 Expanding this(1 +1X10^-6 +10^-12 -1) Pi/2 and assuming 1-^-12 is much smaller than 1 and 1X10^-6 then the volume of the coating Vc, is 1X10-6XPi/2 is approx 1.5X1^-6 = ( assuming PI is 3 as once proposed by the Missouri or Alabama legislature to make math easier) ml of Cu(OH)2 and with a density of about 2 gr/ml this would be about 3 X 10^-6 grams of Cu(OH)2 in 20 liters or about 0.15 X 10^-6 grams per liter or about 0.15 parts per billion for each micron = of thickness of the copper hydroxide on each meter of chiller tube. So a 10 meter chiller will yield = 1.5 ppb/micron of Cu(OH)2 in solution for each micron of thickness.. How thick is the layer of copper hydroxide? = That depends.... Anybody?? Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com = Voice e-mail OK = Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:00:27 -0800 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: Stirrer I was thinking of making my own stirrer. I believe it could most certainly be done with less than $75. I do not know where to locate those little teflon coated stirring magnets. Can any of you lab/scientific people help me locate a stirring magnet or two? I was going to mount either a steel plate or another magnet (if there was not enough coupling with the steel) to a small motor placed under my starter flask. I think you could use either a DC or AC motor. If using an AC motor the proper safety precautions would need to be taken. I was thinking an old clock motor might work well (is 1 rpm too slow?). A DC motor could be powered by one of those "outlet cubes" with a voltage for the desired stirring speed. I've seen a stirrer in Edmunds but I would never pay the price they were asking. Theirs was lab quality. I don't need something that will be on 365x24 and it doesn't matter if the speed isn't exactly the same for the whole time it's on. John Schnupp, N3CNL Colchester, VT 95 XLH 1200 Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:36:18 -0500 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Verdigris, copper, acid, Part 2 Brewsters: Well, I somehow cancelled (I think) part 2 = to update it and didn't send it back in its modified form. I also managed to wipe it off my auto-filer. I'm just glad this is a hobby! So, here is the new version in case the old one doesn't make it. Now we know that copper can dissolve in the presence of water and oxygen in a neutral situation forming those hydroxides which can dissolve in acids. That beautiful green patina on those copper roofed buildings and bronze statues underneath all that pigeon crap is a mixture of copper hydroxides and carbonates which are relatively insoluble. Copper oxides are rust or black colored and what we normally see on our tubing, = because it is nor so complex a chemical situation as on a rooftop or a copper pipe in your basement So what does this mean to us as brewers? Acid will not dissolve the metal, but any oxides or hydroxides will cause copper to be leached into the wort/beer. So before we use any copper article it should be washed with acetic or (careful) dilute hydrochloric acid. If is is necessary to bring it into contact with alkaline things - like detergents- rinse it with acid and then water before storing it dry. Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com = Voice e-mail OK = Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:57:29 -0500 (EST) From: Homebrew Digest <hbd at brew.oeonline.com> Subject: Donation Request... News Flash! 11/8/97 - Donation Request: The Digest has need of a back-up device, and a memory expansion. We are looking to possibly purchase a Ditto insider, and new memory chips (since we're not sure we can match what's in there today...) These purchases will safeguard the Digest against hard drive/total system failure (we've been living on luck, up until now; but as the server approaches it's one-year anniversary online, we feel it's prime time to take some precautions!) and will also allow us to continue hosting club web pages and preserving other web pages without sacrificing performance. Please contact Pat Babcock (pbabcock at oeonline.com) to make arrangements if you'd like to donate. We'd like to complete the purchases before the December holidays so that they can be installed during my normal holiday vacation time. As always, donors will be added to the Donors' page, and the receipts from this fund raising will be posted on the "accountability" page of the HBD website (http://hbd.org). Thanks in advance for your continued support and generosity! Cheers! The Home Brew Digest Janitorial Staff Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 00:25:54 -0800 From: Alex Paredez <aparedez at sdcc14.ucsd.edu> Subject: re:age of stant Saul, I am no expert, but I work in a developmental biology lab and because of my interest in yeast I was reading a lab manual called "Short Protocols in Molecular Biology". Anyway according to the manual a slant of yeast stored at 4 degrees Celsius should be viable for up to two years. I think you should consider the frequency you use the culture and also the quality of the media when deciding how long you wait before starting a new slant. It would probably not be a bad idea to re-streak your culture at least once a year. Actually I would make my starters from a working plate, and go into the slant only when necessary. The plate should last months if you keep it sealed with Parafilm. -Alex P.S. I do not know the names of the authors off hand, but if anyone cares I will get the names for them. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 03:17:37 -0400 From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Airlock - deadend. As I previously posted, I poured a light colored lager from a keg and left it on my kitchen counter for ~15 hours and found that it had darkened somewhat. After an additional 24 hours the difference was substantially greater. Slightly moreso at 2.5 days. Several readers suggest that light may be a culprit here. The beer was left behind some stuff on a kitchen counter perhaps 10 ft from a north facing window, and not directly lighted from the window. We haven't had anything comparable to direct sunlight here for several weeks - solid overcast (this is standard fall and winter weather to the south of Lake Erie). So ambient light *could* be a factor, but the exposure was modest and without a suggested mechanism I doubt this is a cause. Someone suggested that the beer became more dense, and so darker as the carbonation was removed. Sorry - the density change is microscopic, and actually the beer should become less dense. My personal pet theory was that there is an oxidation reaction and polymerization of phenolics occurred. There also appears subjectively to be a loss of red tones and a replacement with darker brown-black tones during this darkening. I treated my very stale dark lager and a fresh sample with a major dose of PVPP(Polyclar AT) which should precipicate tannoids - which should include some-many oxidized phenolic products. This PVPP treatment, after a 12 hr sedimentation period in a fridge had no apparent effect on the color of either sample. Oh well. This doesn't prove that phenolics are not involved - just that any phenolic products are not tannoids. I guess I am satisfied that the standard airlock is not at fault, but I am no closer to identifying the actual cause or mechanism of this particular darkening. thanks to the many respondents on this topic, Steve Alexander Return to table of contents
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