---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Yeast Slant Preparation/Cryogenics ("Rosenzweig,Steve")
  Lauter tun manifold (Mike Hughes)
  Yeast starter pH - followup (David Muzidal)
  RE: Traquir House (John Wilkinson)
  The Quest for S.S. (S&R Moed)
  Re: cleaning carboys/ long boils (John Wilkinson)
  Re: Carboy Cleaning ("William Warren")
  summery: cleaning carboys (michael rose)
  Decoction/Extract brewing (RobertS735)
  HEEEEEELP!  Advanced brewer can't make a decent brew. (Richard Soennichsen)
  Rootbeer, Yeast Starters, Abrupt end to fermentation (David Blaine)
  Chuckie ("Michael T. Bell")
  ColorpHast strips (Kit Anderson)
  RE: cleaning carboys & first Carboy ("Michael E. Dingas")
  RE: Another one for the Homebrew Lawers ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Oak chips in fermenter (Edward J. Basgall)
  cupric acetate (Edward J. Basgall)
  Charles-in charge, priming yeast ("Raymond Estrella")
  Verdigris, copper and acid, Part 2 ("David R. Burley")
  Verdidgris, copper and acid Part 1 ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Age of slants, yeast cultures ("Layne and Katrise")
  When to use secondary? (Tom_Williams)
  Verdigris, copper, acid part 3 ("David R. Burley")
  Stirrer (John_E_Schnupp)
  Verdigris, copper, acid, Part 2 ("David R. Burley")
  Donation Request... (Homebrew Digest)
  re:age of stant (Alex Paredez)
  Airlock - deadend. (Steve Alexander)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:23:03 PST
From: "Rosenzweig,Steve" <Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com>
Subject: Yeast Slant Preparation/Cryogenics

I have a few questions on yeast slants, as well as a tip or two:

Here is the procedure I used to prepare the slants:

Boiled approx. 26 oz of p-canned all grain wort that hadn't sealed quite right.
Added 2 pkg (1oz each) Knox Gelatin.  
Package indicated that 1oz was good for 2 cups liquid, so it seemed to 
 be right amount.
Turned heat off. Stirred in gelatin until dissolved.
Poured jello-wort into 36 - 50 ml vials (American Science & Surplus!)
TIP:  Take aluminum pie tin and trace out holes for vials on bottom, 
 cut holes with exacto knife - I fit 12 in the one that I made - may be 
 able to fit even more.
Put some water in bottom of pressure cooker (7 pint capacity cooker).
Put in upside down pie plate, and place vials in holes.
Loosely cap vials.
Crank up heat and p-cook at 15# for 15 min - 3 sets of 12.
Remove vials and let cool
Tighten caps.
Place on side in shoebox and set box at angle to give "slant" for max 
 surface area.

Problem:  So far, the jello wort still has not really set very well.  
 If the vials are rotated, the jello-wort will pull away from the 
 sides, effectively ruining the sample.

Question: Could this have been due to the pressure cooking?  Or just 
 not enough gelatin used?  Or is this normal for all-grain jello-wort?

Last February I prepared DME wort-jello just in a boiling water bath 
 and those set really well (and luckily are still healthy and viable!)

Note that upon refrigeration the slants do set up very well, and can 
 then be set upright for cold storage, so the room temp stability is 
 not a big deal, but if there is a way to improve my process, I'd like 
 to find it.

************************************************************
The next step was to inoculate the slants.  

Last season I saved about 10ml of 4 different Wyeast wort from each 
 package that I used in a boiled (sanitized) vial, then added about the 
 same amount of glycerin to the vial for a rough 50% mixture and shook 
 up the vial.  I put a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the freezer to 
 chill.  When chilled, I poured the cold alcohol into a plastic 
 container and put the vials into the container to fast chill the 
 yeast.  Then I put the covered container into the back of the freezer. 
  BTW - Non frost free freezer (we need to defrost that puppy soon!) so 
 the temp should have been stable.  The samples looked good in the 
 freezer, the yeast had settled out to the bottom, and the wort was 
 clearly not frozen - the yeast resuspended easily.

Four days ago I brought the samples out of the freezer, took them out 
 of the alcohol bath, quickly warmed them in warm water. Then I 
 inoculated 6 vials of each of the 4 frozen strains and 6 vials of a 
 fresh strain.  

The result is that I have 6 vials of the fresh strain that look very 
 good, but none of the frozen strains have yet shown any activity (4 
 days).  Hopefully the yeast are just a little sluggish after a good 9 
 months in the deep freeze, but I fear that I may have inadvertantly 
 committed yeasticide!  IMYR???

Two other notes on the difference between this batch and last years DME 
 batch.  The DME batch was opaque wheras the new all grain batch is a 
 beautiful golden color.  The yeast in the DME batch seem much more 
 numerous, you can see a distinct thick yeast cake on top, and even 
 some growth inside some of the stabs I made.  The yeast in the new 
 batch seem less numerous, very thin, almost like a delicate web of 
 yeast atop the slant.  Maybe the DME batch was somehow more nutritious 
 since I did not include much trub in the boil?

If I don't see any activity after a full week or so, I may just 
 inoculate the new slants from the old slants that still seem viable 
 and healthy, but it pains me to think that my freezing process did not 
 work - any ideas anyone?  I may look into the sterile distilled water 
 storage that has been given some press lately if my freezing process 
 has failed.

************************************************************
Sorry for the length, but hopefully there was a grain or two of helpful 
 ideas in there for prospective yeast ranchers.

TIA for any insight on the all-grain jello-wort consistency, DME vs 
 all-grain jello-wort differences, and any helpful critiques of my 
 cryogenic processes.

Stephen

Erika the Red Ale in the keg
Oatmeal Stout in the secondary
PrePro Lager in the primary (still going after 12 days!)


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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:52:50 -0800
From: Mike Hughes <mikehu at synopsys.com>
Subject: Lauter tun manifold

Greetings -
Thought I'd post the results of facing the slots upward on my copper
pipe manifold in my lauter tun. I got this idea from an article in
Brewing Techniques, which claimed that facing the slots upward would
reduce channeling along the bottom of the cooler. Well, based on my
hydrometer reading, it looks like this method is indeed more efficient.
I usually get a OG of 1.068 for the recipe I used. With the slots facing
upward, I got an OG of 1.074! My biggest fear was that facing the slots
upward would clog them or let grain particles through. No such problems
occured. I had to recirculate approximatley .5 gal to get clear
runnings, and the sparge proceeded without a hitch after that. I'll be
sparging with the slots facing upward from now on.

Mike Hughes
Double-Barrel Brewery
Portland, OR

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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:00:27 -0600
From: David Muzidal <Dave.Muzidal at dssc.slg.eds.com>
Subject: Yeast starter pH - followup

I just found the answer to my question.  I was at a brewers festival a
few weeks ago and a local homebrew shop was there handing out
free back issues of various magazines.  I happened to pick out the
May/June 1994 issue of Brewing Techniques that contained an article
by Karl King on yeast culturing (funny how things work sometimes!). 
I just got around to reading it (I forgot about it) and this article contained
a section on preparing starter worts.  It warns about using high carbonate
water (such as I have) for yeast starters.  The reason for this is the high
pH of this water favors bacterial growth.  It states that the pH of the starter
wort should be no higher than 5.3.  It suggests that if you are in doubt
about your water, then use distilled water (although I guess pH corrections
with phosphoric acid, etc. would be OK as well).  There is also a section
in the article by Dr. Maribeth Raines about Yeast Theory and its application
to brewing.  This section also reiterates the importance of yeast pH for
the proper growth of yeast.

I'm sorry if I am reitterating common knowledge here, but this is something
I, as mostly an extract brewer, never gave much thought about.

 - Dave Muzidal


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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 97 12:12:09 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Traquir House

In HBD #2551 Kenny said (among other things):

>...The
>key to this beer is a very long, vigorous and propane consumptive boil. 
>I made a batch and boiled the wort for 5 hours which made for a long
>brew day but one damn fine Scotch ale.  It has an incredible caramel
>aroma and taste.  The only problem I have with the 5 hour boil is the
>reduction of beer (from 22 gallons to 12).

I am curious about something.  I thought that after about two hours of boiling,
the hot break would redissolve in the wort.  Since we generally try to avoid
hot break, what does this do to the beer?  If the hot break does indeed dissolve
after a long boil and Traquir House uses long boils and produces good beer,
why is hot break avoided by the rest of us?  Are there other factors at work
here or am I mistaken about long boils and hot break?

Curious in Grapevine,

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com

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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:16:29 -0500 (EST)
From: S&R Moed <bina at idirect.com>
Subject: The Quest for S.S.


Hi everyone, I have been searching for a short time now, for a Stainless
Steel pot to boil
full volume 5 gallon batches.  I have been able to find new ones no problem,
but the price
is a problem.  Calling restaurant suppliers for used stainless steel pots
around here has not
been fruitfull,  these things are scarce!  So I decided to look for a used
beer keg  
(to cut the top off), talked to the guys at the beer store (no luck), I have
no connections
with any bartenders, I contacted scrap yards (they will not sell any, to
valuable?), I even 
called some breweries.  These things are gaurded like gold!  So my questions
are;

1. are all beer kegs Stainless steel?  (some look like aluminium)

2. If I can't get S.S. which would be better; a heavy aluminium pot,
   or a enamel coated canning pot?  (a good question for you metal guys)

3. Does anyone have any Ideas I may have missed, in my search?

I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has been through this
before, and also anyone in
southern Ontario (Toronto area) who could be of help.

Thanks in advance,

Rob Moed  Oakville Ont. Canada.  


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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 97 13:36:21 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Re: cleaning carboys/ long boils

Mike Rose asked about the best method for cleaning carboys used as primary
fermenters.
What has worked well for me is TSP.  About 5 tablespoons in warm water soaks
off all the crud in less than an hour with no scrubbing.  TSP
(trisodium phosphate) may not be available everywhere but I find it here in
Texas in the paint departments of hardware or building products stores.  It
is used by painters to remove grease from surfaces before painting.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

A.J. wrote:

>Lee B. asks if 30 seconds worth of pure O2 is enough to oxygenate 5 gallons
>of wort. It depends on how vigorous the blasts, how good the stone (i.e.
>how small the bubbles are) and the geometry of the container but the answer
>is that 30 seconds probably is enough to get you to 8 mg/L dissolved
>oxygen.

What I have wondered is if 30 seconds of O2 is sufficient for 5 gallons of
wort, why does it take so much longer using an air pump?  If air is 20% 
oxygen why would it take longer than 2.5 minutes to adequately oxygenate
a 5 gallon wort?  Or does it?  I used to use an aquarium pump and thought
it had to be run for several minutes more than 2.5  to be effective.  My
problem with it was the foaming before what I thought was sufficient time
for aeration.  Is the gas flow that much less than that from an O2 cylinder?
That may be it as I never had an air pump blow off my aeration stone but the
O2 bottle sure will.  What is sufficient time using an air pump?  I realize
this depends on air flow and the type of stone used but are there any rough
guidelines?


John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com

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Date: 7 Nov 1997 11:54:36 -0700
From: "William Warren" <wwarren at geron.com>
Subject: Re: Carboy Cleaning

                                                                   =
11/7/97
                                                       Re: Carboy =
Cleaning

A possible to solution to your is to use a jet spray bottle washer. That =
will rinse out some of the resdiue. The way I used to clean the carboys =
was to use a solution mixture of bleeach and water. I would let soak =
over night and finish the job with the evil carboy brush.


Cheers!


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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 12:16:28 -0800
From: michael rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: summery: cleaning carboys

Yesterday I posted a question on the HBD: What is the easiest way to
clean a carboy after fermentation?
	25 or so responses so far. All are about the same, fill with water,
clorine and/or dishwasher soap/TSP/B-Brite/etc. Soak for 24 hours then
rinse well.
	I was hopeing that someone would say "Oh I use the brand new wonder
carboy brush" but no such responses. 3 responses said something like use
carboy jet, jet rinser, jet washer. I don't know if they were refering
to the bottle washer or if a washer designed just for carboys exists. If
someone knows of a product or of a good design for a homemade one,
please post.
			Thanks,    Mike Rose
P.S. I saw a picture of George Fix the other day, did he play the
professor on Gilligan's Island? :^)

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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:45:14 -0500 (EST)
From: RobertS735 at aol.com
Subject: Decoction/Extract brewing

Beer Friends: This morning I was making a batch using my normal extract
technique which includes the addition of two pounds or so of grains, steeped,
and I had a thought.
If single or even triple decotion is a good thing for you all-grain guys,
then would there be any noticeable effect of doing a decoction on my grains?
What I propose is the normal two pounds of cracked grain steeped for the
regular 20-30 minues at 158, then take the runnings and the grain to a boil.
Then sparge and add to the LME and other liquid.... does this seem to have
any potential?
Any suggested alterations to this method?
Opinions considered.... experience valued... thanks
Bob

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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:05:39 -0800
From: Richard Soennichsen <richas at pacbell.net>
Subject: HEEEEEELP!  Advanced brewer can't make a decent brew.

	I have been having much trouble with my beer lately.  The last 10 or so
batches have been really bad.  I have brewed many many good beers in the
past so I know I can do it!  I have experienced off flavors ranging from
slight to gross.  The last batch was as bad as ever.  It had a familiar off
flavor as well as some nasty hoppy bitterness.  Here are the specifics:

The recipe:

9 lbs Hugh-Baird pale
1 lb Crystal 20L            All mashed at 152 for one hour
1 lbs Munich Light

Hops:
1oz Cascade at 60 min (60 min boil)
1oz Cascade at 30 min
1 oz Cascade at 10 min

This equals (according to suds using the Tinseth method) 31.4 IBU
 
Irish Moss (1 Tblspn ) at 30 min

Wyeast 1056 started in 3/4 qt starter made from 1/3 DME

I boil in a homemade SS keg/kettle.  It has an out pipe and a SS false
bottom.  I cool with an immersion wort chiller.  After cooling I drain into
a seven gallon carboy, add the yeast starter, and agitate vigorously.

Secondary is in a smaller carboy.

I used to think the problem might be occurring in the keg somehow but the
last batch was bottled and it was off as well.

I sterilize with a bleach solution.  About 3-4 tablespoons per 4 gallons.
I use a 50% grain alcohol sol. In a spray bottle for localized sterilization.

I hope someone has the magic answer because I have tried everything.  

Is there somewhere to send a bottle of beer to have it anaysised?

Please help me, I love brewing to much to give it up!

Rich

Please e-mail

 richas at pacbell.net

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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:01:48 -0500
From: i.brew2 at juno.com (David Blaine)
Subject: Rootbeer, Yeast Starters, Abrupt end to fermentation

Several people wanted to know what I found out from my request for your
root beer experiences.
Some of you said you had good luck and some bad.  The sanest bit of
wisdom was to use plastic soda bottles when making root beer.  Some used
ale yeast and some champagne.  Some had explosions and gushers and others
did not.  The most logical reason why you could put a packet of yeast
into four gallons of syrup and *NOT* get an explosion is that the yeast
didn't make it after an initial burst of activity.  I don't think that
straight table sugar and water have the nutrients necessary to support a
vigorous ferment, but that is just theory right now.  I suspect that
those who have had explosions did something to *help* the yeast out.  The
first thing that comes to mind is aerating  the root wort.  I will
eventualy buy more extract and plan to use a full packet of champagne
yeast and bottle in plastic bottles.
If anyone who has experience and hasn't contacted me would care to
comment I would sure appreciate it.  I will post after the next batch is
done.

My .02 worth on starters.  Stepped up a Wyeast packet in a single 16 oz
starter for my last batch of Maple Porter.  Pitched it while it was still
bubling in the airlock, sometime after high kreusen.  Thought I could see
activity after two hours but wasn't sure.  Got up that night after 6
hours and found strong fermentation in progress.  Don't know why anyone
would want to endure a 24 hour lag time when a starter is about as hard
to prepare as instant oat meal!!!

Same batch of Maple porter had been in primary 13 days (bad luck?) was
down to two bubbles per minute.  Moved carboy from bath tub to counter
top (so wife could use tub) and fermentation stopped completely.  This
isn't the first time this has happened.  What's the story?  Yeast just
doesn't like to be jostled in the final stages?  

Many thanks to all who tolerate newbies and are so helpful

Dave Blaine in Deckerville Michigan
I.Brew2 at Juno.Com

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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:55:41 -0500
From: "Michael T. Bell" <mikeb at flash.net>
Subject: Chuckie

In HBD #2551 Charles Hudak wrote:

>You seem to be missing the boat there Jer. Maybe you should pay closer
>attention. You don't need to use the whole batch. This clearly shows your
>ignorance of the procedure which I am discussing. See HBD #2549 for an
>outline of how to do the test.

>"It is best to remain silent and be perceived ignorant than to open ones
>mouth and remove all doubt"

>BTW I *am* a homebrewer. How the hell do you think I ended up in a
>commercial brewery? I homebrew 20+ batches a year as well as 100+
>commercially. You?

(snip)

>Oh really? And just how do you know this, or are you *assuming*. The whole
>point of my post was to force people to back up their conjecture with hard
>evidence. Content on remaining ignorant and scared? Your choice, but don't
>blame me for your ignorance  and please refrain from posting imcomplete
>info on the digest which doesn't benefit all the brewers you claim to be
>helping.

> You don't sound like much of a scientist there Jeremy (and yes, I *am*, I
>have a degree in chemistry) The scientific method which *I* was tought
>seems to believe in the idea of experimentation to prove ones theories or
>hypothesis.

(snip)
>I would expect
>the use of more appropriate and correct terms from a scientist. Nothing in
>a brewery is *ever* sterile only hopefully sanitary. I'm apalled that a
>member of a university science department would confuse these two *very*
>different terms (and concepts).

Hey chuck, have one to many squeezes on that picnic tap tonight?  Lighten
up.  He's right, your wrong.  I bet you got beat up a lot in high school a
lot, you can go ahead and tell us.............Doesn't feel good being
treated like pond scum, does it.  Dammit, I HATE jerks.


Michael T. Bell
BoomerDog Brewing
Arlington, TX



Michael T. Bell
Boomerdog Brewing
Arlington, TX



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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 09:38:27 -0500
From: Kit Anderson <kitridge at bigfoot.com>
Subject: ColorpHast strips

A homebrew shop owner would like to carry ColopHast strips. Can anyone
tell me who makes them? 
Thanks.
- -- 

Kit Anderson			ICQ# 2242257
Bath, Maine			kitridge at bigfoot.com

"I had the right rib, but it musta been the wrong sauce." -Dr. John

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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:16:13 -0500
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: cleaning carboys & first Carboy

Michael Rose wrote:

<What is the easiest way to clean a carboy after using it as a primary
<fermenter? I'm not happy with the carboy brush.

<E-mail probably best for this remedial topic

	Actually, Mike, I'd kind of like to know how others are cleaning up, =
too! I just bought my first carboy (at a craft shop no less!) and got =
the other miscellaneous items (handle, cap, brush, funnel) at my local =
brewshop. I know how nasty my plastic fermenter gets and am not looking =
forward to cleaning the carboy.
	I also thought others would be interested to know that new 5-gal =
carboys are available elsewhere (than mail order or brewshops). I paid =
$9.95 at a craftstore called The Pottery. This store specializes in =
craft items (dried flowers, pottery, vases, etc.) but also has a large =
selection of other import items such as crystal, picture frames, =
household items, etc.. Anyone having a similar store nearby and wanting =
a carboy should check them out.

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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:33:44 -0500
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Another one for the Homebrew Lawers

	First, I'm not a lawyer but am contributing some common sense input. =
(Knowing lawyers, my input will probably be pounced upon with great =
fury!)
	Giving away beer avoids the issue of a liquour license and taxes but =
would only pertain to you since consumption would occur at a licensed =
establishment. So long as YOU don't sell your beer and produce more than =
the law allows, you are in no trouble.=20
	More to the point, I would think that once the owner has accepted the =
gift and agreed to dispense the beer, it is no longer a matter of =
concern for the generous donor. Now limiting overdrinking becomes a =
concern for the bar-owner/bartender. If your beer is highly alcholic =
(more so than store bought) I would make damd sure the owner (and =
drinkers) were aware of this to permit adjusting their 'limit'.
	Hope your party is a hugh success!!

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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:29:03 -0500
From: ejb11 at psu.edu (Edward J. Basgall)
Subject: Oak chips in fermenter

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:39:12 -0800
From: Sheena McGrath <sheena at gte.net>
Subject: Re: Rodenbach clone

Dear Homebrewers:
I have been thinking about making a Rodenbach clone. Since I don't have
a barrel, I might use a plastic bucket and some wood chips. Does this
sound feasible?
Thanks to all who reply,
Sheena

- -----------------

Hi Sheena,
I do this all the time for an oakey, tannin flavor.  I use about 1 oz of
oak chips (soaked in grain alcohol to sanitize) in my secondary
fermentation.   You could also heat sanitize them moistened with water in a
microwave.  It works nicely in my Belgian tripels.

cheers
ed basgall
SCUM
State College Underground Maltsters
State College, PA



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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:49:57 -0500
From: ejb11 at psu.edu (Edward J. Basgall)
Subject: cupric acetate

>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:45:54 -0600 (CST)
>From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
>Subject: verdigris
>While looking up the spelling of something, I ran across "verdigris" in
>Webster's dictionary.  It is said to be the blue-green substance that
>is formed from the action of acetic acid (vinegar) on copper and is
>*poisonous*.  Webster says it is made up of copper acetate......
>Presumably the copper acetate is very soluble in water?
>Presumably rinsing well after cleaning with vinegar will render the
>copper item safe for brewing again?

Hi Al and HBD'ers,
Such a quandry, FYI according to Merck Index, 11th edition.  Cupric acetate
is aka crystallized verdigris.  Prepared by the action of acetic acid on
CuO.  It is soluble in water, alcohol, slightly soluble in ether, glycerol.
It's LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of the test subjects) in rats is .71 g/kg.


Rinse well and avoid using green discolored copper wort chillers.

cheers
ed basgall
SCUM
State College Underground Maltsters

Edward J. Basgall, PhD
The Pennsylvania State University
Surface Chemistry Group                       ejb11 at psu.edu
Materials Research Institute Building       Ph:  814-865-0493
University Park, PA 16802-7003            FAX:  814-863-0618
                        http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejb11/
Privilege does not absolve one of ecological responsibility.



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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 97 17:18:09 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com>
Subject: Charles-in charge, priming yeast

Hello to all,
Charles Hudak rips on Jeremy, and in his own not-so-subtle way,
any one that is not up to his higher than God standards.

>You don't sound like much of a scientist there Jeremy (and yes, I *am*, I
>have a degree in chemistry) The scientific method which *I* was tought
>seems to believe in the idea of experimentation to prove ones theories or
>hypothesis.

 Hmmm,        You know, I've always thought,
                    That tought was spelled taught.
                    But Charles the scientist, thinks
                    apparently not. (or is that, nought)

 Joe Sever asks about adding yeast at bottling time with his Barley Wine,

>I've heard of good results from pitching yeast along with the priming
>solution to ensure carbonation.  How much yeast?  

 Well, though I am not a scientist, and do not play one on HBD, I have added
yeast at prime-time, in my Belgian Tripples. (The only style that I carbonate
in the bottle.) I start with a fresh culture, (or smack-pack of Wyeast) and 
pitch it into a 500 ml starter. As soon as it is at high krausen I place it in 
the 
'fridge to knock it out of suspension. I then pour off the excess liquid and 
add 
the slurry to the bottling bucket. The last one was a 10.1% alc /vol Tripple 
that 
carbonated great. It did still take 6 weeks at 73f to get there though, that 
is
the nature of the beast with big beers.
 Pierre Rojotte discusses this technique in his Belgian Ale book. (I am not 
sure that he is a *scientist*, but he writes a pretty good book.)

 Hope that this helps, or at least entertains.

 Ray (not-a-scientist-commercial-brewer-WSTer-grammer pro) Estrella
Cottage Grove   MN   USA
ray-estrella at msn.com

******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ********



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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:09:45 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Verdigris, copper and acid, Part 2

Brewsters:

We can, nevertheless, conclude that:

1) The reaction to dissolve copper coupled
with an oxidation can proceed in a neutral =

media.

2) This reaction requires only wet copper
and oxygen from the air to proceed.

The overall reaction of interest is
Cu + O2 + H2O then H+ produces Cu ++ when the =

reacted copper is placed in contact with acid.

Oxygen as an oxidizer is unusual in =

that it forms the other part of water and
has a special place in this chemistry.

I don't have the data here, but this actual
oxidation of copper occurs with wet copper
in contact with oxygen and produces lots of other
oxides and hydroxides. These oxides and
hydroxides can react with the carbon dioxide
in the atmosphere to form the complex
cuprous/cupric carbonate/hydroxide hydrate
which is relatively insoluble and is responsible
for that beautiful green colored "patina" we see
on roofs and other copper ornamented buildings
and statues and copper pipes in our wet basement.

Now, unlike copper metal,  copper hydroxide
IS soluble in acetic,hydrochloric and other
protonium acids, as an acid/base reaction
and not an oxidation reaction is needed.
Likewise, the oxides are soluble in acids.
So the copper hydroxide and copper oxide
( a reddish brown/ black coating you see on
"aged" copper - and especially where you touched it)
is soluble in these acids, but the metal itself is not. =


So what's the bottom line for us brewers?  =


Keeping the brownish or greenish colors off of
our copper equipment and tubing will prevent
the dissolution of the oxides and hydroxides
of copper into our wort/beer.  How do we do that? =

Wash with acid.  Acetic acid or dilute  hydrochloric
(careful!) acid will easily remove this coating.

Do this just before you use it, and keep things
like bases ( aka alkaline soap powders) away
from the copper unless used quickly
( i.e. not soaked) and rinsed with dilute
food grade acids and then water before storing dry.

How much copper are we talking about?
Imagine a copper tube used as a chiller 5 cm
in diameter and 1 meter long coated with a
micron thick layer of copper hydroxide/oxide.
 =

If we take two cylinders - one 5 cm in diameter
and one 5 cm plus 1 micron, the difference
in PiXdXh for each cylinder will be the volume
of the coating.

SO:  (5cm + 10^-6 m)Pi X 1 m =3D V1 and
 5cm X Pi X 1 m =3D V2 ergo V1-V2 =3D 10^-6XPiX1M
 =

If we assume a micron thick layer as a beginning =

point, then on a cylinder 5 cm in diameter =

( assuming PI is 3 as once proposed by the
Missouri or Alabama legislature to make math easier)
this is about  1x10-6 m X 3 =3D 3 X 10^-6 ml of
Cu(OH)2 and with a density of about 2 gr/ml
this would be about 6 X 10^-6 grams of Cu(OH)2
in 20 liters or about 0.3 X 10^-6 grams per liter
or about 0,3 parts per billion for each micron =

of thickness of the copper hydroxide on each meter
of chiller tube. So a 10 meter chiller will yield =

3 ppb/micron of Cu(OH)2 in solution.

How thick is the layer of copper hydroxide? =

That depends....  Anybody??
 =

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:09:52 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Verdidgris, copper and acid Part 1

Brewsters:

AlK, on perusing a dictionary, came across
a reference to "verdigris" defined as
copper acetate and it set him to wondering
about acetic acid in contact with copper
in brewing, its solubility,copper ions in high
concentrations being poisonous, etc.

I don't have my alchemistry books in front of me,
but I believe verdigris is actually a complex
mixture of salts of copper, perhaps derived
from the solution of copper oxides and =

hydroxides with vinegar.

Based on what I have read here on occasion,
first let me shock some  HBD readers.
Metallic copper is NOT soluble in acid,
unless the acid is also an oxidizer like
con. Nitric. Ergo acetic, dilute nitric,
hydrochloric acid as well as carbonic
( aka CO2 in water) acids
do NOT dissolve pure metallic copper. =


How do I know this?  I look at the
electrochemical series table in my trusty
CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics
and it says among many other listings:

Cu to Cu+ is -.522V
Cu to Cu++ is - 0.34V

Both reactions have a negative potential
relative to hydrogen/protonium. Hydrogen
to the protonium ion ( H2 to H+ + 1 e-)  is
by definition 0 volts so there is no spontaneous =

driving force for the hydrogen to take up =

electrons from pure copper to form =

cuprous or cupric ion. =


This is unlike, say, zinc in which
 Zn to Zn++ is +0.768V and
will give up electrons to the protonium ion
forming hydrogen.  Most readers know that
zinc is spontaneously soluble in acid and =

that it fizzes as the hydrogen comes off.

However, we also note in the above referenced table:

Cu + 2OH- to Cu(OH)2 + 2 e is 0.224V

A positive potential.  So copper should =

dissolve in bases in the presence of an oxidizer
to take up the electrons.  That could be
just water plus oxygen, so:

2H2O + O2 +4e- to form 4 OH-. is 0.401V =


or another way of saying this is =


2Cu + 2H2O + O2 yields 2 Cu(OH)2 with 0.624V

so the over all reaction has a positive potential
and is therefore spontaneous in the
thermodynamic ( not necessarily the kinetic) sense
and there may be other reactions involving the =

cuprous ion and formation of peroxides, oxides,etc..


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:32:43 -0800
From: "Layne and Katrise" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com>
Subject: Re: Age of slants, yeast cultures

In HBD #2552 Saul Laufer writes;

>While I have read that slants should be recultured every 2-3 months I
recently pitched from a slant that was a year old (it got overlooked in
the reculturing process) and stored in my beer fridge.  The yeast was
viable and produced a most delicious brown ale.  I have not given up
reculturing after 3 months but does anybody have opinions about keeping
slants for longer periods (6 - 12 months).<

Here's my opinion....
I recommend that slants and petrie dishes should be re-cultured every three
to four months to maintain viable yeast.  I have been keeping all my
cultures from the past year to see what happens to them as they get older. 
I have one that is actually 15 months old now, (My very first culture).  I
use petrie dish cultures.
	Of the first six plates from 12 months ago I have two left.  I discarded 2
when they were about six months old as they were contaminated.  (Due I
assume to being used repeatedly and taken out of the package so often.) 
The other two were tossed out just a month ago because the agar was
starting to dry up and harden around the edges.  The other two look as good
as they did 11 months ago.  I suspect that the viability will be quite low.
	Of the cultures I made 8 months ago they are all still fine.  There are
six as well and I only used them a couple times over the summer.  I started
with eight but two were lost within a couple weeks to mold.  (I guess my
technique isn't as good as it could be but this is why I make at least two
or three cultures of each yeast I have.)
	Of the cultures from four months ago I have and use all of them still and
I plan on re-culturing them next week.  Last week I used my Wyeast 1028
culture to make a starter and everything was normal.
	The best reason to re-culture is to be sure the yeasts don't die on us. 
Obviously dehydration of the media takes a long time and infections can
occur at any time but are more susceptible the more they are used or
exposed to the air, our hands, etc.....  
	I guess I could try an experiment to test the viability of the older
cultures.  What is the best was to set this experiment up?  I have
methylene blue, I think that is used to test viability.  Maybe the best way
is to try a yeast that is 4, 8 and 12 months old in 3 bottles of wort to
see what the time difference might be for lag time, krausen (sp?) and full
attenuation of a volume of starter wort.
	The only strain I have in all three ages is the Wyeast 1028.  I'll wait to
see what the collective's observations and suggestions are before starting
this experiment.  I would also like to get more info. in yeast viability
testing as well.

Cheers to all.  What a great group of folks. 

Layne Rossi
wetpetz at oberon.ark.com
Campbell River, BC  Http://oberon.ark.com/~wetpetz

To try and fail is better than
failing because we didn't try!



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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:00:15 -0500
From: Tom_Williams at cabot-corp.com
Subject: When to use secondary?


Al Korzonas says:  "I simply go three to four weeks in the primary
on lagers (I *only* use a primary for ales) and then rack to a
secondary,..."

I brew pretty much all ales, and have been habitually using a secondary.  I
would be interested in some further discussion of the parenthetical phrase
above.

Tom Williams
Dunwoody, Georgia



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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:58:02 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Verdigris, copper, acid part 3

Brewsters:

How much copper are we talking about?
Imagine a copper tube used as a chiller 1.0 cm
in diameter ( about 3/8 inch) and 1 meter long coated with a
micron thick layer of copper hydroxide/oxide.
 =

If we take two cylinders - one 1 cm in diameter
and one 1 cm plus 1 micron, the difference
in Pi/2Xd^2Xh for each cylinder will be the volume
of the coating.

SO:Pi/2X  (1cm + 10^-6 m)^2 X 1 m =3D V1 and
Pi/2X( 1cm)^2 X 1 m =3D V2.  Vc =3D V1-V2

Expanding this(1 +1X10^-6 +10^-12 -1) Pi/2
and assuming 1-^-12 is much smaller than
1 and 1X10^-6 then the volume of the coating
 Vc, is 1X10-6XPi/2 is approx 1.5X1^-6 =

( assuming PI is 3 as once proposed by the
Missouri or Alabama legislature to make math easier)
ml of Cu(OH)2 and with a density of about 2 gr/ml
this would be about 3 X 10^-6 grams of Cu(OH)2
in 20 liters or about 0.15 X 10^-6 grams per liter
or about 0.15 parts per billion for each micron =

of thickness of the copper hydroxide on each meter
of chiller tube.

So a 10 meter chiller will yield =

1.5 ppb/micron of Cu(OH)2 in solution for each micron of thickness..

How thick is the layer of copper hydroxide? =

That depends....  Anybody??


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK  =


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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:00:27 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: Stirrer

I was thinking of making my own stirrer.  I believe it could
most certainly be done with less than $75.  I do not know where
to locate those little teflon coated stirring magnets.  Can any
of you lab/scientific people help me locate a stirring magnet
or two?

I was going to mount either a steel plate or another magnet (if
there was not enough coupling with the steel) to a small motor
placed under my starter flask.  I think you could use either a
DC or AC motor.  If using an AC motor the proper safety
precautions would need to be taken.  I was thinking an old clock
motor might work well (is 1 rpm too slow?).  A DC motor could be
powered by one of those "outlet cubes" with a voltage for the
desired stirring speed.

I've seen a stirrer in Edmunds but I would never pay the price they
were asking.  Theirs was lab quality.  I don't need something that
will be on 365x24 and it doesn't matter if the speed isn't exactly
the same for the whole time it's on.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200



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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:36:18 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Verdigris, copper, acid, Part 2

Brewsters:

Well, I somehow cancelled (I think) part 2 =

to update it and didn't send it back in its
modified form. I also managed to wipe it off
my auto-filer. I'm just glad this is a hobby!
So, here is the new version in case the old
one doesn't make it.

Now we know that copper can dissolve in the
presence of water and oxygen in a neutral
situation forming those hydroxides which can
dissolve in acids.

That beautiful green patina on those copper
roofed buildings and bronze statues underneath
all that pigeon crap is a mixture of copper
hydroxides and carbonates which are relatively insoluble.
Copper oxides are rust or black colored and
what we normally see on our tubing, =

because it is nor so complex a chemical
situation as on a rooftop or a copper pipe
in your basement

So what does this mean to us as brewers?

Acid will not dissolve the metal, but any
oxides or hydroxides will cause copper
to be leached into the wort/beer.
So before we use any copper article it
should be washed with acetic or
(careful) dilute hydrochloric acid.
If is is necessary to bring it into contact with
alkaline things - like detergents- rinse it
with acid and then water before storing it dry.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:57:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Homebrew Digest <hbd at brew.oeonline.com>
Subject: Donation Request...

News Flash!

11/8/97 - Donation Request: The Digest has need of a back-up device, and a
memory expansion. We are looking to possibly purchase a Ditto insider, and
new memory chips (since we're not sure we can match what's in there
today...) 

These purchases will safeguard the Digest against hard drive/total system
failure (we've been living on luck, up until now; but as the server 
approaches it's one-year anniversary online, we feel it's prime time to 
take some precautions!) and will also allow us to continue hosting club
web pages and preserving other web pages without sacrificing performance. 

Please contact Pat Babcock (pbabcock at oeonline.com) to make arrangements if
you'd like to donate. We'd like to complete the purchases before the
December holidays so that they can be installed during my normal holiday
vacation time. 

As always, donors will be added to the Donors' page, and the receipts from
this fund raising will be posted on the "accountability" page of the HBD
website (http://hbd.org).

Thanks in advance for your continued support and generosity!


Cheers!

The Home Brew Digest Janitorial Staff


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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 00:25:54 -0800
From: Alex Paredez <aparedez at sdcc14.ucsd.edu>
Subject: re:age of stant

Saul,
     I am no expert, but I work in a developmental biology lab and because
of my interest in yeast I was reading a lab manual called "Short Protocols
in Molecular Biology".  Anyway according to the manual a slant of yeast
stored at 4 degrees Celsius should be viable for up to two years.  I think
you should consider the frequency you use the culture and also the quality
of the media when deciding how long you wait before starting a new slant.
It would probably not be a bad idea to re-streak your culture at least once
a year.  Actually I would make my starters from a working plate, and go
into the slant only when necessary.  The plate should last months if you
keep it sealed with Parafilm.   

	-Alex
P.S.  I do not know the names of the authors off hand, but if anyone cares
I will get the names for them.




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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 03:17:37 -0400
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Airlock - deadend.

As I previously posted, I poured a light colored lager from a keg and
left it on my kitchen counter for ~15 hours and found that it had
darkened somewhat. After an additional 24 hours the difference was
substantially greater. Slightly moreso at 2.5 days.

Several readers suggest that light may be a culprit here.  The beer was
left behind some stuff on a kitchen counter perhaps 10 ft from a north
facing window, and not directly lighted from the window.  We haven't had
anything comparable to direct sunlight here for several weeks - solid
overcast (this is standard fall and winter weather to the south of Lake
Erie).  So ambient light *could* be a factor, but the exposure was
modest and without a suggested mechanism I doubt this is a cause.

Someone suggested that the beer became more dense, and so darker as the
carbonation was removed.  Sorry - the density change is microscopic, and
actually the beer should become less dense.

My personal pet theory was that there is an oxidation reaction and
polymerization of phenolics occurred.  There also appears subjectively
to be a loss of red tones and a replacement with darker brown-black
tones during this darkening. I treated my very stale dark lager and a
fresh sample with a major dose of  PVPP(Polyclar AT) which should
precipicate tannoids - which should include some-many oxidized phenolic
products.  This PVPP treatment, after a 12 hr sedimentation period in a
fridge had no apparent effect on the color of either sample.  Oh well. 
This doesn't prove that phenolics are not involved - just that any
phenolic products are not tannoids.

I guess I am satisfied that the standard airlock is not at fault, but I
am no closer to identifying the actual cause or mechanism of this
particular darkening.

thanks to the many respondents on this topic,
Steve Alexander



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---