---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Spousal Approval (Kate Cone)
  Microscope/CO2 Generator/O2 and Yeast (AJ)
  Re: Reusing Bottle Yeast (Jim Wallace)
  Brewing tomes, bubble-gum, & justifiable expenses ("Raymond Estrella")
  corn sugar vs. corn / Blonde Ales / Cleaning tubing (George De Piro)
  dry hopping & infections (michael rose)
  some simple questions (michael rose)
  Go Cougs! (GuyG4)
  Compensating for hop A.A. loss during storage (dfikar)
  Indianapolis Brewing Co. (Jim Kirk)
  Coffee stout (Tim Dennis)
  Using Clinitest (Mark Tumarkin)
  Speciality Grains And Wort Boiling (Mike York)
  A little heavy on the hops...can I mellow it? (Mark Arneson)
  Lambic in bottles (Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK)
  Rakes... (Mark D Weaver)
  Bottling the Barleywine (scotty)
  Light "beer", corn and corn sugar... (Mark D Weaver)
  Boiling grain experts... (Some Guy)
  Eliminating the RIMS Stuck Mash (Kyle Druey)
  Sparging advice please ? (Luke.L.Morris)
  yeast slopes (Luke.L.Morris)
  RE: How to use hop pellets  (Aaron Spurlock ) (Andrew Quinzani)
  Sake Brewery in Kyoto ("Chris A. Smith")


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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:43:33 -0500 (EST)
From: katecone at ime.net (Kate Cone)
Subject: Spousal Approval

Just catching the tail end of this discussion. I had similar grumbles of
"why do you want to homebrew?" from my husband last year. I replied that as
a beer writer, I would have much more credibility if I knew at least what my
fellow homebrewers went through. If I happened to make good beer in the
bargain, so much the better. 

My brewing equipment was my Valentine's Day gift. (I ordered it). When my
husband tasted the finished product, a nice pale ale, he became my best
advocate for homebrewing. If we run out of my brew, he bugs me to keep brewing. 

When I won a blue ribbon, he needed a crane to lift his jaw off the ground,
but that underscored even more my reasons for continuing. I think you just
have to respect each other's hobbies. If your SO doesn't have any hobbies,
and wants to spend every waking minute with you, my sympathies. But I think
having to do all those dances of "I'll do chores if you "let" me brew" are
ridiculous. 

Kate Cone
"What's Brewing in New England."


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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:30:53 -0400
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (AJ)
Subject: Microscope/CO2 Generator/O2 and Yeast

Scott Murman asked what kind of microscope setup is required to identify
the different strains of yeast. Such a system requires a special substage
condenser (phase contrast), special objectives (phase contrast), ordinary
oculars, ordinary eyeballs and a brain like Dan McConnell's. In other
words, the 'scope must allow the user to distinguish the internal
structures of the cell but only an experienced, knowledgeable, microscopist
can be expected to come even close to distinguishing strains by their
morphology. If you examine several strains you will notice morphological
differences in things like shape, size, the way the cells clump (or dont
clump) and so on. I've heard Dan say that he can recognize each of the
strains he manages under the microscope but he works with these on a daily
basis. I suppose it is like a farmer being able to recognize his individual
cows (but yeast don't have those tags in their ears). I'm sure that I'd
flunk if I were given slides of each of the strains with which I'm supposed
to be familiar and were asked to identify them.

So given that you can't practically identify strains with a microscope, how
do you do it? Microbiologists have sophisticated techniques based on what
the organism will or will not grow on, what metabaolites they produce, the
appearance of colonies  what "antibiotics" suppress growth and so on which
they use to differentiate organisms. Most of these are beyond homebrewers.
Confronted with, for example, a slant from our collection whose label has
been somehow lost about the best we can do is brew with it and try to
identify it by the beer it produces.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Oliver Weatherbee wrote suggesting that one could make a simple CO2
generator from a soda bottle filled with sugar and yeast. Being an
impatient sort I would fill it with baking soda and vinegar.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Wayne Little asked about oxygen requirements of yeast. I'd almost rather
discuss botulism. In a nutshell, it is generally accepted that while
brewing yeast can respire they do not do so to an appreciable extent under
normal brewery conditions. Note that I said "generally". Not everyone
accepts that this is the case. Also note that definition of the term
"respire" is the biochemist's to whom it means oxidative phosphorylation
i.e. the transfer of electrons to molecular oxygen as the terminal
acceptor. For a good reveiw of all this see Tracy Aquilla's article "The
Biochemistry of Yeast" in the March/April (this year) Brewing Techniques.

Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.



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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:52:04 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re: Reusing Bottle Yeast

- --------"Fogdt, Michael" <MFogdt01 at sprintspectrum.com>---------------
particularly Hefe-Weizen. I can not get a definitive answer whether the
yeast in the bottle is simply for conditioning, or whether it can be
used to make a *terrific* wheat beer using authentic German yeast. That
would be my ideal first brew - a medium bodied, cloudy and estery
(phenolic?) banana- and clove-tasting wheat beer!
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
So many of the HefeWeissens replace the estery fermenting yeast with a lager
yeast for bottling. the only one I am sure of is Schneider for capturing and
getting those phenolic/ester flavors. Wyeasts works just fine also.

___________________________________________
       JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
               www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 17:30:49 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com>
Subject: Brewing tomes, bubble-gum, & justifiable expenses

  Hello to all,  Ellery Samuels asks for literary advice,
>I would like to purchase some books as holiday gifts for homebrewing friends.
>Most are what would be considered intermediate brewers (ie partial-mash
>brews). Looking for books that would raise their knowledge (and mine too) 
>in areas such as: decoction mashing; protein rests; formulating recipes;
>using adjuncts...

  Good question, a fellow member of the Minnesota homeBrewers Association,
and National Judge, Steve Piatz and I were just discussing what three brewing
related books we would pick if that was all that we could have.  My choice  
was 
Dave Miller's "Homebrewing Guide", Noonen's "New Brewing Lager Beer", and 
Ray Daniels' " Designing Great Beers".  It would be interesting to see what 
the 
collective would choose..........

Al K answers Ricks question about bubble-gum flavors, attributing it to 
Brettanomyces, possibly taking up residence in his fermenter......

>Whether it's Brett or not, the bottom line is it's the yeast.  Don't
>reuse the yeast if you don't like this aroma.

  I disagree with this statement.  A bubble-gum character can be produced 
can be produced by the yeast, yes,  especially the classic Belgians.  But by 
experimenting with cooler fermentation temperatures you can cut this down.  
I do not think that this is a Brett. infection since the time it takes for 
Brett. to 
get a foothold, and start contributing to flavor profile takes longer than 
most 
of us are going to let a brew sit in a fermenter.  It also contributes much 
more 
noticeable off-flavors besides the fruity bubble-gum ester. (Sourness, acidic, 
etc.)

  And finally, Alan answers Mike Lee's "justifiable expense" post, (What a 
great 
thread, you are now almost as infamous as the original botulism poster.)
 >My wife gives me 1 day per
 >week provided that I set aside my Sunday for just the 2 of us.

  First let me say that yes, you do save money.  My wife did not drink beer 
until 
she started going out with me. Then she found out that beer could have flavor.
All of a sudden the "heavy bodied red wine" drinker, wanted the "malty, full 
bodied
ales".  (No, no.. my wife is not heavy, or full bodied.... I'm dead....)
Then we left my home in California  to move to her birthplace of Minnesota, 
the land of sky blue waters.....Hamm's, Stroh's, Grain Belt, ad nausium.  Try 
to buy 
a 6-pack of Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout and it costs $12, and it is major 
heat
damaged, dusted, and skunked. (Yes, you can skunk a Stout if you keep it under
fluorescent lights, at room temp. long enough.)  So she was all for me 
deciding to
try making all of our favorite brews.
  Any expenses that are accrued by my hobbies (Brewing and computers) comes
from side jobs, or over-time.  But the biggie comes in the form of "time 
spent".
Like Alan, I only brew once a week, and only in the winter, which goes from 
Nov.
to Tax-day in our part of the country. But what Alan is failing to recognize 
is the 
fact that though he only brews once a week, he has to rack beer from the 
primary
to the secondary, and measure grain for the next batch, prepare water for 
tomorrow's
brew session, keg / bottle the batch that is waiting, get ready the next yeast 
starter,
bump up the last yeast starter........ oh yeah, I said this was the week that 
I am going
to start WST'ing.
  This is a great hobby. Yeah it can get expensive, but if you are blowing 
money 
that you don't have then you should let her, or him, control the checkbook 
anyway.
And it can get time expensive also. I have found that the more (brewing) you 
can 
do while the cat is away, the less the mouse has to (stressfully, emotionally) 
pay.

Ray Estrella
Cottage Grove,  MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ********



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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:08:52 -0800
From: George De Piro <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: corn sugar vs. corn / Blonde Ales / Cleaning tubing

Hi all,

Bruce asks about using corn sugar instead of corn to
lighten the taste of his beer to make it more palatable to
his unenlightened friends.  Corn sugar, as has been
recently discussed here, will lighten the beer's body
and flavor, but will make it cidery if used in
excess.  It will contribute no corn flavor.

Corn, on the other hand, will also lighten the body of
a beer.  If you use a less processed form of it (such
as cracked kernels or organic cornmeal), it will contribute a
nice corny flavor that accentuates sweetness.  It really
is nice in some styles.

Delano DuGarm published a nice article on corn and other
adjuncts in the most recent issue of Brewing Techniques magazine.
It is worth reading.
- ------------------------------
Also on the lighter beer subject, Bob the Bugman (sorry, I
couldn't resist) asked about blond ale.  This is largely a
brewpub style that is used as a "training wheels" brew for
educating newcomers to craft beer.  I make a tasty, yet
unintimidating version using ~80% Weyermann Pils malt and 20%
Weyermann's Light Munich malt.  I decocotion mash my
version, but you could infusion mash to get a lighter
product.  Hop lightly (15-18 IBU's), with an OG of about 12P (1.048).
Use your favorite ale yeast.  The resulting beer will be light
tasting, but not at all bland.  Malt and hops should both be
noticeable, but light and balanced.  It is very useful at parties.

The addition of some corn would lighten it even more, and add
some interesting flavor...
- ------------------------------
Through all this talk about cleaning tubing nobody has mentioned
a very easy method that works on plastic tubes and stainless, too.
I use a .22 caliber rifle bore cleaner.  You may want to get a
bigger caliber for larger tubing, but 0.22 is perfect for the
tubes in Corny kegs.  If you've never cleaned the tubes in your
kegs in this way, give it a try.  You may be horrified at the
amount of gunk that comes out!

Have fun!

George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:14:31 -0800
From: michael rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: dry hopping & infections

There was a short thread a while back about someone having infection
problems only when they dry hopped. I went to dry hop my pilsner and
noticed that the marbles (used to weight done the hop sack)were not
glass but were instead some type of plastic. ( probably acrylic?) Lot of
little scratches in them. Hope this helps.

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Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:15:20 -0800
From: michael rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: some simple questions

Some simple questions,
	1) I want to make a sparkler (like what is on the end of a english beer
engine) that will fit onto my picnic tap. I'm going to use it to
dispense stouts, english ales and root beer. Anybody got a good design?
	2)I made a batch of root beer and added a 1/2 cup malt extract for the
*sole purpose of head retention.* I pre boiled the extract in a quart of
water beforehand. Should I throw the hot break (protein) into the
rootbeer or decant it off as in beer making?   Is there anything else
that will improve the head on root beer?

	3)

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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:18:46 -0500 (EST)
From: GuyG4 at aol.com
Subject: Go Cougs!

During today's Apple Cup, in which the mighty WSU Cougars prevailed over the
honorable and worthy Huskies, thus earning their first trip to the Rose Bowl
in 67 years, I brewed the following beer.  I will be consuming this beer in
the company of friends as, on New Year's Day, we face the powerful blue and
maize of Michigan.

Dedicated to the "fat five", Messrs. McShane and McEndoo and company, who
have controlled the line of scrimmage through this magnificent season. Your
efforts have not gone unnoticed.

Lightning Creek Crimson and Grey ESB
  2.00	oz.	American Chocolate       
  1.00	lb.	American Crystal  40L    
  1.00	lb.	American Munich (Light)  
  8.00	lb.	American Two-Row         
  0.50	lb.	American Two-Row Toasted 

Hops:
 1.00	oz.	Cascade        	 7.2%	60 min
 1.00	oz.	Fuggles        	 6.9%	10 min

Protein Rest 30 min. at 122F, raise to 158F for 1 hour. Mashout 170F.
Flysparge with 16 qts. hot water, boil 1 hour. Hop as noted. Pitch 2 packages
Danstar London yeast. OG 1.058, FG predicted 1.013
And, yeah, I was going for a heavy scottish.

The school which played the first Rose Bowl, will this year play the last
real Rose Bowl. All alums hold their heads high at because of the courage and
integrity of these young men. Best of luck on New Years Day.

Go Cougs!
GuyG4 at aol.com
Guy Gregory WSU '79
Lightning Creek Home Brewery
Spokane, WA

 

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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:32:09 -0600 (CST)
From: dfikar at flash.net
Subject: Compensating for hop A.A. loss during storage


The Zymurgy Hops special issue discussed an elaborate adjustment that one
can make to account for hop alpha acid loss during storage when calculating
IBUs.  In practice, how important is the adjustment if you use the hops within
a few months, keep them refrigerated, and use oxygen-barrier containers? 

Seems like I remember reading that even if there is some alpha acid
degradation it will be at least partially offset by bitterness gains
from oxidized beta acids.  Also, isn't it true that some types of noble
hops actually become *better* following some degree of aging/oxidation?

- ---------------------------------------------
Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX (dfikar at flash.net)

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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:04:58 -0500
From: Jim Kirk <captain at iquest.net>
Subject: Indianapolis Brewing Co.

The Indianapolis Brewing Co. has closed it's doors. The equipment was
purchased by the Oaken Barrel Brewpub to be used as their microbrewery. 

______________________________________________________________________

Jim Kirk      captain at iquest.net       http://www.iquest.net/~captain/
Interested in Homebrewing? Check out
http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/7755/

"Listening to someone who brews his own beer is like listening to a
religious fanatic talk about the day he saw the light." 
								- Ross Murray
_______________________________________________________________________


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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:31:07 -0800
From: timd at blazenet.net (Tim Dennis)
Subject: Coffee stout

I'm going to brew a stout on my first anniversary next week. I've
decided to use coffee in this
batch. Through some research, I've seen different amounts being used,
and different methods.
For example: brew up 10 cups of coffee and add to brew kettle at the end
of the boil, or to place
ground coffee in muslin bag and steep at end of boil. To me, these
methods are very similar,
the quantity is what I'm not sure of. The results I'm after, would be to
acknowledge the presence
of coffee without taking away the beer character. I would appreciate any
information on your
experiences with adding coffee to a stout. I've also been looking for
hazelnut extract locally, I did
use a hazelnut flavoring in an English brown ale I recently brewed. The
flavoring had some
extracts in it. Would pure extract be better, and is it at all
available?


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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:26:37 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: Using Clinitest

Hi Dave Burley (and anyone else who can help advise me),

I have a batch of porter that seems to be stuck at about 1.021. I didn't
think it was quite done but wanted to be sure. It has been at that gravity
for 7-10 days. So I thought this might be a good time to try using the
Clinitest. My local pharmacy had one in stock so I got it and then did a
search of the HBD archives to find the posts in which you had discussed the
method for using it. 

I found your instructions - you mentioned using 10 drops of beer and then
in a later post said oops, and that it should have been 5 drops. You also
said using 10 drops would be more exact but to divide the results by 2. If
I understand this, you meant that if the test then showed 1%, it would
really be at 1/2 %. Is that correct?

Using 5 drops, my reading comes out at 1%. So it still needs to ferment
more. Since it has not changed even though I brought it into the house for
a warmer temp, and also swirled it a bit, I am thinking of adding more
yeast. Is this what you would suggest?  Also you had mentioned the
alternative of bottling with a higher remaining percentage of fermentable
sugars and modifying the amount of sugar added for priming. Would you
please give me a little guidance on how to figure this as well?

There has been some talk in the digest recently concerning bottling versus
fermenting strains of yeast, especially  in some of the Belgian ales. Is
this usually done when the beer is filtered? In my case, I am thinking of
doing this because my yeast seem to be partied out. What issues should I be
aware of in this case. I am assuming that my starter should be relatively
small, compared to starting a new batch, otherwise I would think you would
get more yeast than normal settling out in the bottles. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle
Gainesville, FL

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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:46:40
From: Mike York <myork at asheboro.com>
Subject: Speciality Grains And Wort Boiling

A great big thank you to the following excellent homebrewers concerning the
wort boiling process:

Scott Kaczorowski, Long Beach, CA--Dan Johnson, Willow Springs, NC--Brian
Pickerill--Bryan L. Gros, Oakland, CA--Charley Burns, N.Cal--Dave Bartz,
Indianapolis, IN--Ray Estrella, Cottage Grove, MN

The HBD must have the most helpful, considerate, knowledgeable people in
the world: What a powerful mailing list for the wonderful hobby of
homebrewing.

Please allow me to quote another expert Charlie Papazian taken from his,
"The New Complete Joy Of Homebrewing"

- ---The most effective way to introduce the goodness of specialty grains in
malt extract brewing is to add the cracked grains to the cold water as it
is being brought to a boil. Just before the water comes to a boil, simply
use a small kitchen strainer and remove as much as possible without undue
fuss.  You will find that you can easily remove 80-90 percent of the
grains.  It's that simple!

After the specialty grains are removed from the water, add your malt
extract, minerals, boiling hops and all other sugars.

So, as you continue to heat and bring your wort back to a boil, use your
spoon to stir well and dissolve all of the ingredients so they won't stick
and scorch on the bottom of the brew pot.  You will want to time your boil
from when it begins with all of the ingredients.  Usually 1/2-1 hour is an
adequate time for boiling your wort.

Hops that are used as flavor or aromatic finishing hops should be added
during the final 1-10 minutes of the boil.  Generally, flavor will be
extracted and preserved for not longer than 10 minutes of boiling.  The
aromatics of hops will be dissipated more quickly and should be allowed to
steep for only 1-2 minutes if hop bouquet is desired in the finished beer.---

Thanks again for all of you who take the time to share.

Happy Brewing,

Mike

William Mike York Jr.
"Shagging Forever"
129 Vaughn York Rd.
Staley, NC  27355
910 824-8937
myork at asheboro.com

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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:45:58 -0500
From: Mark Arneson <marnes at hom.net>
Subject: A little heavy on the hops...can I mellow it?

Greetings All, 

I just made a pumpkin ale and a sweet stout last weekend

I miscalculated the amount of perl hops to put into the pumpkin ale.
It turned out more IPA-ish.  I can smell and taste the pumpkin and spices,
but the hops are kind of overpowering.  Is there a way I can mellow it out?
(the stout, on the other hand, is going to be excellent)


BTW...on the issue of spousal approval for home brewing, 
My wife was MORE than happy to help me spend over $300.00
to get a Sabco keg/burner outfit to move the whole process
into the garage and OUT of her kitchen.
Now she's even getting me a grain mill for X-mas.  ; )


Thanks in advance for any advise.

Mark Arneson
Macon, GA
marnes at bigfoot.com



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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:04:30 -0500
From: Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK at ln.utk.edu
Subject: Lambic in bottles


I just bottled my first lambic on 11/3/97 and there is white mold forming
on the surface and around the neck.  Normally, I would discount this to
poor sanitation and hope it didn't taste god-awful, but since this is
lambic I am at a bit of a loss.  The brew was made following Papazian's
recipe in "Homebrewer's Companion," p. 295, using the Wyeast Lambic blend.
Brewed on 3/11/97, racked 3/31 off the fruit, bulk aged until11/3/97.
Anybody else know anything about this?  I'm striving to not worry, but that
mold is some nasty looking stuff.
Jeff York - in Knoxville, TN- jeffyork at utk.edu



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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:22:20 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: Rakes...

Al,

In addition, when doing a decoction, the rakes are used so as to
distribute the hot decocted mash evenly temperature wise and so as not to
destroy the enzymes, it's also why the decocted grains are added in
slowly. I know someone who works for AB, I could ask as to their
practices regarding their cereal (mash) cookers.....

Regards,
Mark

(O=00=O) / (o--tii-o)
(O=00=O) / (D       D)
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose -  :  headbrewer at juno.com  or 
AwfulQuiet at aol.com

>Brewers who use decoction mashes (according to The Biotechnology of
>Malting and Brewing, by Hough) need to run their rakes because the
boiling
>of the decoctions removes all the entrained air from the mash which
>makes the grain bed lose its bouyancy.  I'm pretty sure that Miller
Brewing 
>doesn't use decoction mashes, but they do use cereal-cookers which boil
>the adjuncts and *part* of the barley malt.  I presume that this boils
>enough of the entrained air out of the mash to require rakes.

>To me, the bottom line is this: if you can get by without rakes, do.

>Al.

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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:31:30 +0000
From: scotty at enaila.nidlink.com
Subject: Bottling the Barleywine

Hello all,

You may remember about a month ago, I asked about Rogue yeast for a 
barleywine.  Well, I made the beer and found out some things in the 
process.  I use a 32 qt enamel pot across two burners on my gas 
kitchen stove to boil.  I found that with 24# of grain (my system 
isn't super efficient...usually around 70%) I couldn't collect near 
enough wort to effectively boil down to reach my target 
gravity(1.100).  I ended up putting about 7.5 gallons in my enamel 
pot and about 4.5 gallons in my old stainless pot left over from 
extract brewing.  I ended up with a dismal 1.084 post boil OG.  I 
added a couple of pounds of malt extract syrup (boiled in a little 
water) to get the gravity where I wanted.  I used a yeast cake left 
over from a pale ale I made with the Rogue yeast.  I generally use a 
7 gallon carboy for primary fermentation.  Well, I was lucky and the 
carboy didn't blow up.  I didn't expect the yeast to take off with 
such vigor.  Anyway, I had a few questions regarding this thing.  I 
airated well, but the fermentation seems to have ended around 1.026.  
Is this a reasonable final gravity?  I added some more yeast to this 
thing to see in that might help and it doesn't seem to have done 
much.  If this thing is approaching the finale, I would like some 
advise on how to bottle this stuff.  I have come up with three 
alternatives:

1.  Add priming sugar and bottle (hope that there is enough yeast in 
     solution).

2.  Add more yeast and sugar and bottle (probably a qt starter)

3.  Keg, force carbonate, and bottle

I am leaning toward force carbonation.  I would like to know if this 
would be detrimental to the beer.  Will it have an effect on how it 
ages?  Thanks for all your help.

Scott Rohlf
scotty at nidlink dot com

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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:35:08 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: Light "beer", corn and corn sugar... 

Bruce,

I know what I am suggesting isn't really for "ales", but have you tried
decocting part of the mash? The extracted "grain flavour" / tannins give
the beer a nice grain finish, rather tasty I think.... 

Regards,
Mark
 
(O=00=O) / (o--tii-o)
 (O=00=O) / (D       D)
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose -  :  headbrewer at juno.com  or 
AwfulQuiet at aol.com

>>	I've been brewing for about 10 years, the last few have been
all-grain.  I've made lots of great beer since I went to all-grain,
stouts, browns, fruit-ales, wheats, oktoberfest, even a great smoked
ale.  The only type I have had trouble with is making a tasty LIGHT ale.
I know this sounds like an oxymoron, but I have had homebrew that falls
into this category.
	I've tried using rice as an adjunct but I don't like it's flavor
contribution (even though the literature says it has none).  I was
thinking of trying corn, but then why not skip the corn and just add a
couple of pounds of corn sugar like I did years ago when I first started
brewing with kits.  It should thin out the flavor without changing it,
right?
	Does anyone want to admit that they have done this?  I need this
beer for my beer-taste-deprived friends (OK, OK, I'll be drinking it
too).  Any comments would be appreciated.  If you could send your
response to the digest and me so I would be sure not to miss it.

Bruce Taber
Almonte, Ontario, Canada
bruce.taber at nrc.ca

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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:55:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Boiling grain experts...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Mike York says: 

"Please allow me to quote another expert"

Sure! Go right ahead!

"Charlie Papazian"

He's an expert? When did that happen?

"taken from his,"

 ...generally old and outdated...

"'The New Complete Joy Of Homebrewing'

 - ---The most effective way to introduce the goodness of specialty grains in
malt extract brewing is to add the cracked grains to the cold water as it
is being brought to a boil. Just before the water comes to a boil, simply
use a small kitchen strainer and remove as much as possible without undue
fuss."

As evidenced by this "advice". Frankly, Mike, I'm not sure why you are 
quoting this. To make those that offered help appear as asses? To show CP 
as an ass? Dunno.

Anyway, "just before the water comes to a boil" should read "at or below
about 170'F"  (which is significantly more before boiling than CP's advice
might imply). Boiling grains is a no-no. You will get more in your beer
than "the goodness of specialty grains" by following the "just before the
water comes to a boil" advice. 

Try this: 

If including anything but completely converted grains (completely
converted grains can simply be soaked in water at or below 170'F to
extract the sugars), put cracked grains into a grain bag and tie off. Put
into a pot of water at around 158'F - use about a quart of water per pound
of grain - and hold it there for about 45 minutes. Remove the bag. If you
want, you can rinse the bag and grains with about half the original
quantity of water at or below 170'F. Now, in another pot, mix your
extracts with cool water. Stir, stir, stir. Add the liquid from your
grains. bring to a boil while stirring (as usual) and you're off to the
races! 

By the way, an expert is an expert because s/he wants to be. The goal to
become expert drives them to make sacrifices for their chosen field of
expertise and to keep both on top of it and in front of it, growing with
the changes in opinion, craft and technology. From what I've seen of CP of
late, using this definition as a yardstick, his days of expertise are long
past. He should concentrate on sucking the life blood out of the AOB (his
current field of expertise) and leave the brewing to those who like to do
it. If it weren't for the fact that TCJOHB and THBC were written in such a
friendly (if not eccentric - "Beer Worlds"? Really...) style, I wouldn't
even think to recommend them to beginning brewers at all. Maybe, based on
this exchange, I shouldn't. 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html



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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:55:02 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <kdldmd at lightspeed.net>
Subject: Eliminating the RIMS Stuck Mash

Frustrated HBD RIMS Users, 

Are you beginning to think that RIMS is a myth?  Have you seen all those 
great RIMS web pages and wondered if those pictures are real?  If so I 
have some information to share on how you can possibly eliminate or 
greatly reduce your RIMS stuck mashes.  After eleven late night RIMS 
brewing sessions from hell, and after consulting with the numerous HBD 
RIMS gurus, I have finally solved my RIMS stuck mash problems.  I spent 
alot of time researching and experimenting, so I thought sharing this 
info could perhaps save somebody some time and frustration.  Here are the 
top 10 suggestions for eliminating your RIMS stuck mash:

1)  Use a coarse crush.  I think this is the missing link for eliminating 
the RIMS stuck mash.  The only hitch is that you must own or have access 
to an adjustable malt mill.  I use Dave Burley's two pass crush:  the 
first pass is at a setting on 0.08", and the second pass is at 0.06".  
You will not lose extraction with this coarser crush, and it will allow 
the wort to flow more easily through the grain bed.  You will probably 
always have RIMS stuck mash problems if you rely on the homebrew shop to 
crush your grain.

2)  Use a thick mash.  I have had very good success with a water to malt 
ratio of 0.9 qts/lb.  More water is not necissarily better for RIMS.  You 
want to float the grain bed while you are recirculating, the same concept 
as when you sparge.  If too much water is in the mash it will have a 
tendency to compact the grain bed and sit on top of the grain.  You need 
to try this to actually believe it!  Using less water will also increase 
your temp rise rate.  It now takes me about 10 to 15 minutes to raise the 
temp from 140 to 158.

3)  Have adequate percent open area on your false bottom.  The common 
household kitchen strainer is about 50% open area and seems to be about 
the right to get an adequate flow rate through the grain bed, without 
allowing the grain to pass through.  I know some people have success 
using Phils PB, but I did not have the same luck.  My PPB is now attached 
to my return manifold and acts as a baffle so that the grain bed is not 
disturbed.  McMaster-Carr has an excellent selection of ss screen for 
about $5 for a 12" X 12" sheet, you can order it on line.

4)  Use rigid suction piping.  I used to use braided vinyl but it would 
close up when the mash started to stick.  I now use 1/2" copper pipe.

5)  Have variable speed control on your pump.  Use a fan motor speed 
controller, and always start the RIMS mash very slowly.  Only increase 
the fow rate during temperature boosts, and slow the pump back down when 
you hit your rest temperature.  A ball valve down stream of the pump 
discharge can also be used to control the flow rate.

6)  Use a verical leg on your suction piping.  I use a piece of braided 
SS mesh sheath.  One end of the sheath is attached to a float which 
causes it to always remain just below the surface of the mash.  This 
concept is similar to a "floating swing line" that is used on oil 
refinery storage tanks.  The other end of the sheath is connected to a 
Tee beneath the false bottom.  The other side of the Tee has an Ell 
attached to it which pulls suction from the wort that has collected 
beneath the false bottom via gravity flow.  What I noticed during a set 
mash is that the mash water sits on top of the compacted grain bed.  When 
this starts to happen the vertical suction leg then kicks in and pulls 
the water off the top of the grain bed.  This then relieves the set mash 
condition, and allows the mash water to gravity flow once again.  The 
pump will normally pull suction beneath the false bottom because that 
side of the suction Tee has less head loss through it than the vertical 
leg does (the ss mesh sheath).

7)  Use a rectangluar cooler for a RIMS tun.  This will allow for a grain 
bed that is not as deep as when a round cooler is used.  A more shallow 
grain bed will allow the mash water to flow more easily through the grain 
bed.

8)  Incorporate a 30' Glucinase rest at 104 F.  This is supposed to 
reduce the viscosity of the mash and allow it to flow easier.    

9)  Do not stir.  The only time you should stir is when you are doughing 
in the grist.  Stirring during a RIMS mash only disturbs the grain bed.  
Not stirring is the other big benefit of using a RIMS (the first benefit 
is precise temperature control).     

10)  Have several homebrews while RIMSing.  This may not eliminate your 
stuck mash but it will help you to forget about it.

Hope this list helps somebody.  I know that when my RIMS works the way it 
is supposed to it is a step mashing dream..... precise temperature 
control, multiple rests, no stirring, smooth tasting wort!  Happy 
RIMSing.

Kyle Druey
brewing in Bakersfield, CA
rehabilitated RIMS schizophrenic
enjoying my Bavarian Weissbier which used a 30' 111 F ferulic acid rest  
  to get that big clove taste

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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 16:50:34 +0800
From: Luke.L.Morris at woodside.com.au
Subject: Sparging advice please ?

Hiya,

I've been all-grain brewing for about a year now, and I've ironed out 
most of the bugs in my process, so brew-day is not as nerve-wracking as 
it used to be.  But I'm yet to find a means of sparging that I'm happy 
with.  I thought maybe someone out there could offer me a few tips.

Sparging techniques I have tried...

First batch:  I mashed in a picnic cooler and transferred to a separate 
lauter tun with a grain bag fitted inside.  By the time I started 
sparging the grain bed was down to 55C (131F).  No amount of sparging 
with hot water would bring the temperature up again.  Lousy efficiency. 
 Messy operation.  Never again.  Invested in a Gott cooler with Phil's 
phalse bottom and Phil's spargy whirly thing.

Subsequent batches:  Mashed in Gott cooler with phalse bottom etc.  
First batch prepared sparge water at 77C (170F) and began sparging.  
Heat losses between the water supply and the grain bed caused sparge 
water temperature drop, and final grain bed temperature was very low.  
Subsequent batches prepared sparge water at boiling, and heat losses 
caused top of grain bed to see sparge water between 70 and 75C (158F 
and 167F).  Final grain bed temperatures about 70C.  Figured most of 
the heat was being lost out the top of the cooler while the 
whirly-thing was going.  Spraying the hot water also must allow a lot 
of the water's heat to escape.

Last two batches:  Added boiling water from my kettle directly to the 
top of the mash while drawing liquid off the bottom.  Kept the lid on 
the Gott to retain heat (took the lid off to top up the water every 
5-10 minutes of course).  Final grain bed temperatures 77C (170F) and 
79C (174F) respectively for the two batches.  Pouring in the boiling 
water disturbed the top of the grain bed, but apparently not the base 
since I saw no reduced clarity of the malt liquor.  These two batches 
fermenting now.

Questions:
i)	Do I need to "mash out" to 77C (170F) before beginning the sparge ?  
I guess this would help my temperature control problems somewhat, but 
so far I have figured that the increased temperature of the sparge 
water would be sufficient, ideally ending up with a grain bed temp of 
77C (170F) to maximise extraction efficiency without extracting "nasties".

ii)	Does pouring boiling water on top of the grain bed adversely affect 
the end result ?  And to what extent ?  I realise that boiling the 
grains extracts undesirable stuff.  But if these dissolve in the water 
at temperatures >77C (>170F), will they not precipitate back out as 
they pass through the cooler grain bed below ?

iii)	How significant is my disturbance of the top of the grain bed ?  I 
keep sticking a thermometer in it anyway.

iv)	Can anyone suggest to me a better way of managing my sparging.  
Somebody out there must have this one figured out without the need for 
heaps of expensive kit (ie. anyone who wants to talk me into a RIMS 
will be unsuccessful.  PS,  What exactly does RIMS stand for ?).  I 
brew 5-gallon batches in a 10-gallon Gott cooler with a phalse bottom.  
I have a solar hot water system which means my hot water temperature 
can be anything from 45C to 90+C (113F to 194+F) depending on the 
weather.  So my only reliable source of really hot water is a 1.5 litre 
(3 pint) slow electric kettle.  Or a big pot on a stove, which I can do.

Response by private e-mail preferred, to luke.morris at woodside.com.au

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Regards,

Luke Morris
Brewing in Perth, Western Australia.


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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 17:02:34 +0800
From: Luke.L.Morris at woodside.com.au
Subject: yeast slopes

Hello again,

There has been some talk in the last few HBDs about making slopes for 
yeast culturing.  (ie. how to do it, re-using the slopes etc etc).  I 
made my own slopes a few times, and though it wasn't hard, I found it 
time-consuming and messy.  Maybe I was doing it wrong.  But I still 
wanted to culture yeast (because liquid yeast is too expensive to use 
once only !).

So I approached a microbiological lab supply company.  They are able to 
supply me with prepared 5ml slopes at a cost of A$9.60 (about US$7.10) 
for a box of 10.  The slopes are guaranteed sterile.  They are purpose 
made for yeast culturing and are prepared with potato dextrose agar 
which has been acidified slightly to discourage bacterial growth.

No doubt you could find a similar supplier in your region.  If you 
prefer to make your own slopes, that's great, but this really suited me.

Regards,

Luke Morris
Brewing in Perth, Western Australia.


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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:19:25 -0500
From: Andrew Quinzani <quinzani at mdc.net>
Subject: RE: How to use hop pellets  (Aaron Spurlock )

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:27:54 -0800
From: "Aaron Spurlock" <spurlock at azlink.com>
Subject: How to use Hop Pellets?

>I boiled the wort with the pellet hops, and cooled the wort over about 30-40
>minutes to 68F in an ice bath. Once that was done, I stirred the wort in a
>circle to get all the "gunk" into the center of the pot,

This is cold break, you should remove it as soon as it forms.
While boiling, the foamy gunk that pops up is hot break, this too should be
skimmed off as it forms.


> wrapped my siphon
>uptake tube in my fine mesh bag, and started the siphon in the bottom corner
>of the pot. Well, the hop "slime" soon coated the entire bag, stopping any
>further flow through it and my siphon died.

Yeah, been there, done that.

>I then tried pouring the cooled wort through my funnel, straining out the
>hop slime. It was soon coated, and I resorted to a method of pour, clean the
>strainer, pour, clean the strainer...

Done that too.

>1. Did I need to worry about separating the pellet hops from the wort for
>fermentation? 

Yes, you want to remove all the "stuff" you can.


>Should I have done a trub removal by putting the wort in my
>carboy for 12-hours, and then immediately racking into my primary fermenter
>instead?

Never tried that one, I don't think so....

>2. Should I use the whole hops instead? Are they easier to work with?

I use plugs whenever I can and drop them into a chesse cloth bag, that way
all the stuff is already seperated. Be sure to keep the bag well off the
bottom of the pot or it will get stuck and melt to the bottom (done that too!)

>3. Is it better to siphon out of the boiler? I like the idea of using the
>"inline aerator" so siphoning seems attractive. I thought the "whirlpool"
>and siphoning through a bag would work, but...

I always did it that way before I went to my 15 gal. converted keg and it
has a 3/4" ball valve on the side for emptying the pot.

>4. Non-related question--what about sanitizing a frozen 2-liter bottle of
i>ce and plopping it into hot wort to cool? This is suggested in Lee Janson's
>book "Brew Chem 101".

I assume you are talking about boiling this water to sanitize it? I suppose.
You want to keep in mind that you do not want to mix air into the wort
untill it is cooled, off flavors and other nasty things could result.

>Thanks for keeping me going and educating me! Soon I can help answer
>questions instead of just ask!

Thats where we all started!

                                                                            
             -=Q=-
"Q" Brew Brewery...Home of Hairy Chest Ale
- ------------------------------------------------------------
quinzani at mdc.net


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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:13:44 +1300
From: "Chris A. Smith" <casmith at metro.telecom.samsung.co.kr>
Subject: Sake Brewery in Kyoto

(Now here's a stab in the dark:)

I headed for Kyoto, Japan next month for vacation
and I'd like to tour a sake brewery, preferably one
that has English- or Korean-speaking guides. 
Anybody have any suggestions on breweries or how
to go about finding one?  Thanks.


- -- 


Chris A. Smith
Switching Systems Group
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Seoul, Korea

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---