---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Brewpot manifold/No hot break (Jim English)
  glycol jackets ("Manuel Munarriz")
  Re: What did I make? ("Robert J. Waddell")
  FG dilema (Richard Johnson)
  Re: AFCHBC Call for Judges (Dion Hollenbeck)
  yeast raising (Mark E. Lubben)
  New BT Column (Louis Bonham)
  One More Sparkler Thingy Comment (KennyEddy)
  Square Coleman (Mike Marshburn)
  More hydrometer calibration stuff ... ("Brian Dixon")
  Belgian Double Bottling (Mike Proffitt)
  sparkler effect, dispense pressure (mwmccaw)
  Maris Otter malt, other sundry items (smurman)
  Re: Boil them grain experts! (Steve Alexander)
  Irish Moss and Yeast (dajohnson)
  Re: Sexist Kitchen Rant (Bryan Fitzhugh)
  Water (Tom Clark)
  thanks:keg o-rings (Mel D Irvin)
  Topping off w/ Bottled H2O (Steve Adams)
  Freezing malt (Richard Seyler)
  Starch and dextrins in beer (George De Piro)
  Bottled Water / Oatmeal Stout Question (Bill Goodman)
  Top 10 (Richard Scholz)
  Instrument for Sampling (Nick Bonfilio)
  Sexist kitchen, Yeast Shocking, Sparge Water Ph (Alpinessj)
  Judgment Day... (Charles Burns)
  Questions! (Jeffrey Rose)
  Elect Hot Liquor Tanks?!? (David A Bradley)
  Re: brewing with a microwave (Lou Heavner)
  Takin' offense ("Raymond Estrella")
  Priming. ("Michael Kowalczyk")



=====================================================================
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                   ...ain't nearly enough!

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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:32:20 -0500
From: Jim English <jimebob at mindspring.com>
Subject: Brewpot manifold/No hot break 

Having recently resolved my brewpot dilemna by acquiring a converted keg for
a really good price I am now learning how to use it and have come across a
couple of new situations that I would like to run by this august assembly
for some feedback.

1. I made a manifold of half-inch copper slotted (2 to 3 cuts per inch) in
the shape of a square that hugs the bottom (at least at the corners)of my
keg.  The threaded SS nipple is about 2 inches above the center-bottom of
the keg so I used 90's to drop the manifold down about an inch or so to get
as close to the bottom as possible.  I did not solder all this together yet
for all kinds of obvious reasons.
On the first full-volume boil I did I merrily threw my hops in there by the
fist-full and was loving life until it was time to drain the kettle.  The
damn thing acted like what a stuck sparge must be like.  I'm still working
my way up to all-grain. The kettle would not drain.  I assumed the manifold
had just gotten clogged with hops leaves.  Slosh, slosh, slosh...no go...
Now desperate I reach into the wort with my bleachy hand (the horror) and
find my manifold has come apart.  I don't know if it was the violence of the
boil or the enthusiastic stirring of one of the spectator amateur volunteers
that "helped" me brew that day that knocked my manifold loose.  I ended up
removing the manifold completely and pushing a thin rod into the drain and
working the hops and wort out of the kettle and into the funnel/filter I
used to use.  Now to my questions: =20
        Will a manifold of this type work in a brewpot?=20
        Should I make a "stack" on it above the level of the wort as in
plumbing         a sink or whatever to facilitate flow?
        Is it more likely my manifold was loose to start with rather than=
 that
        the hops plugged it up and the manifold came loose as a result of my
        mucking about in there?

2. On my second full-volume batch (a massive porter) I brought 6 gallons of
RO filtered water (by an outfit named H2Only, got a big machine in the
grocery store, very impressive) to a boil (relax I removed my specialty
grains AT 170=B0F)=20
and removed a gallon or twoof boiling soon-to-be wort to a small pot to
dissolve the liquid and the dry extract before adding it back in to prevent
scorching.  Once dissolved I poured it back into the big kettle and went on
about my business.  NO BREAK.  NONE.  My brewing buddy (about 20 years
experience homebrewing with extracts) and I (considerably less) had never
seen anything like it.  At no point in the 90 minute boil did it break.
The beer is fine, apparently.  But I wonder what happened.  By the way it
was 5.5 lbs of bulk British liquid extract and 2.5 lbs of M&F dry!!
Any ideas anybody.

JRE

Jim English in Duluth (no not Minnesota, Georgia...what you think I'm crazy
or sumpin'.  It gets cooooold up there.)  ;-)


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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:48:06 PST
From: "Manuel Munarriz" <manuel_munarriz at hotmail.com>
Subject: glycol jackets

Hello,

I am a student who chosed a project about building a homebrew machine, 
and i am interested in building a glycol jacket for my fermenter, but i 
have no idea how to do it.
How i have to build the jacket ?  It is a conventional baffled jacket?
A half pipe jacket ?
And how a have to cool the glycol ? How a have to make the glycol 
circulate into the jacket ?
Do I need a compresor or a pump ?  Will I have the glycol as a gas or as 
a liquid ? 

As you see i need a lot of help, so i would appreciate any.
 Thanks a lot  
                Manuel Munarriz

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:08:21 -0700
From: "Robert J. Waddell" <rjw at dimensional.com>
Subject: Re: What did I make?


John Varady writes:
> This is a recipe for porter but I fermented 6.25 gallons with Bavarian
> Lager yeast and 6.25 with Northwest ESB yeast. The differences between
> the two are amazing! I definately cannot call the Bavarian batch a
> porter any longer. But what can I call it? Would anyone like to
> pigeonhole this into a sytle? It is too young and yeasty to tell what
> the final product will be like, but so far it is malty and smooth.

John,

In the most recent "Zymurgy", Michael Jackson is discussing porter being
shipped across the Channel and the North Sea, through the Baltic to
Eastern Europe and China.  "In all of those regions, the term Porter is to
some extent still used, normally to identify a dark, roasty, very strong brew,
sometimes made with a top-fermenting ale yeast, but more often with a
lager culture."

This sounds like a "Swartzbeir" (sp?) to me, and sounds yummy.  Let us
know how the final product turns out.  #%^)

RJW

                      I *L*O*V*E* my [Pico] system.  'Cept for that
                      gonging noise it makes when my wife throws it
                      off the bed at night.
                      Women...
                                                    --Pat Babcock

          *** It's never too late to have a happy childhood!  ***
*********************************************************************
RJW at dimensional.com         / Opinions expressed are usually my own but
Robert J. Waddell         / perhaps shared. 
Owner & Brewmaster: Barchenspeider Brew-Haus   Longmont, Colorado
**********************************************************************
                    (4,592 feet higher than Jeff Renner)

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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:40:43 -0500
From: Richard Johnson <Ricjohnson at SURRY.NET>
Subject: FG dilema

I have recently followed the advice of Brew Your Own magazine and brewed a
couple of batches using the same base recipe (extract) and changing the
specialty grains to see the differences they make.  Both times the FG came
out 1.024. First batch is kegged and tastes good.  Second batch is still in
the secondary and reading has not changed for 5 days. I am trying to decide
if I should throw some dry yeast in to ferment out or relax blah blah. I
also have enough room to add 1/2 to 3/4 of a gallon of water to the seconday
which should also lower the FG.  The recipe called for 4lbs Alexander's
light LME and 3lbs Laaglander DME with one batch using 1lb of crystal and
the other using 1lb of crystal and 5oz of chocolate. I tasted what is in the
secondary and it tastes fine as well.  What is a homebrewer to do?


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Date: 07 Dec 1997 12:36:10 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at vigra.com>
Subject: Re: AFCHBC Call for Judges

>> hollen  writes:

Dion> Registration forms may be requested by Email, USMail, phone or online.
Dion> Please fill out the registration form and return it A.S.A.P after
Dion> receipt.  The online registration form is available on our webpage at:

Dion> 	http://www.brewsoft.com/afchbc/judge.html


DUH.  Sorry, but I screwed up the URL.  It should be;

	http://www.softbrew.com/afchbc/judge.html

Sorry,
dion

Judge Coordinator
1998 America's Finest City Homebrew Competition
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor
http://www/softbrew.com/afchbc

- ---
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:27:32 -0500
From: mel at genrad.com (Mark E. Lubben)
Subject: yeast raising


The recent bunch of postings about yeast reminded me of a couple
questions I had.

I bought a pound of DME to make yeast starters last spring.
I know the Dutch Laaglander(sp) brand of DME can be dextrinous/
less-fermentable so I avoided that.  I got the less expensive of the 
other two they offered, but I recognized the brand name.  

The first time, I was taking a local (Boston) "ready to pitch" tube of
ESB (~1/2tsp solids) and boosting it up to pitch into a ten gallon batch.  
I made up a quart of my normal strength starter in a 2 quart 
juice bottle and shook it well a couple of times before and a day
after adding the yeast.  When I was ready to brew two days later, 
I tasted the starter and it was just sweet like when I made it!
Luckily I had a second ESB tube, which I intended to split and culture,
so I divided between carboys and it worked well inspite of underpitching.

I had similar results with my next two starters from a swollen pack
of Wyeast Bavarian lager (normally reliable for me) and culturing
the yeast from a couple of bottles of Hoegarden (sweet at two weeks).
I tossed the DME out after the third failure and used part of a kicker 
of LME to feed the precious babies in my last bottle of wit.

Is this just coincidental bad luck, or did I get a pound of
"adulterated" DME?  Similar experiences with DME other than Dutch?
I haven't given the brand to avoid defaming the manufacturer in case
it was my fault or the shop that repackaged it in the pound bag.
I made dozens of previous starters, so I doubt I heak-stroked or 
chill-shocked all three or other stupid accidents I might do once.  

I suspect I will stick to my normal Munton&Fison DME from now on.

- ---

The suggestions to store yeast under distilled water at room temp. 
caused a question during a discussion with my daughter.  When injecting
any significant amount of fluid into the body, medical folks use 
isotonic solutions to avoid bursting our blood cells or crenating(sp)
them into "prunes".  I know we don't want glucose since we want the
yeast to hibernate, but what about other minerals or alcohol/glycerol?
Or do yeast just have robust enough cell membrane transfer that they 
don't care as much as blood cells that live a chemically pampered life?
Biochemists, I am a techie, but keep it below the ionosphere...  ;^)


Mark Lubben
(mel at genrad.com)

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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 15:51:42 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: New BT Column

Greetings HBD:

Well, it's finally almost here -- the long-awaited RIMS v. Decoction article
(featuring the results of two different "mash-out" experiments) is now in the
can and is slated to be published in the Jan-Feb issue of BT.

As an offshoot of this project, I'm going to be doing a regular column for BT,
which will provide a forum for this kind of comparative experiments, as well
as helpful stuff for amateur brewing scientists (cheap labware sources,
descriptions of ASBC and similar methods of analysis, QA/QC tips, etc.).
Some of the experiments I've got on my list are things like sparge v. no sparge
brewing ("does it really give a maltier flavor?"), single v. triple decoctions,
first wort hopping, malt mill testing, pressure-cooker pseudo-decoctions,
etc.  (Maybe we'll even try and see whether botulism spores can actually
germinate in non-pressure-canned wort!  ;-))  The idea is to try and bring
the scientific method and a little data to bear on the kinds of questions we
routinely bat around here -- as well as to publish and promote the kind of
experiments that HBD readers have been doing for years.

Ergo, if you have a particular brewing experiment you're planning -- or if
you'd like to do one, or have an idea for one that you think would be of
interest -- drop me a note.  And no, you don't have to be a PhD biochemist
to do these (heck, I was a philosophy major) -- you just have the desire to
seek answers and the willingness to collect the data carefully and objectively.
(Of course, if you *are* a PhD biochemist with access to a lab, I've got
a nice long list of favors to ask . . . .)

Last thing -- data points for a future piece -- any amateurs out there who
"wet mill" or otherwise steep their grain before milling?  If so, lemme know.

Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at phoenix.net


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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:50:51 EST
From: KennyEddy <KennyEddy at aol.com>
Subject: One More Sparkler Thingy Comment

Thought I'd toss in my favorite way (from an old Zymurgy tip) of obtaining a
cheap imitation of Real Ale Head (and it works with bottled beer as well):
take a syringe (sans needle!), draw up a few cc's of beer from the glass, and
shoot the sharp stream violently back into the beer.  Kicks up a beautiful
head and whips the beer itself into a fluffy mousselike texture.  As others
have stated, the difference between conventionally-poured beer versus whipped
ale is remarkable.  Pour two glasses of the same beer and try it on one, then
taste side by side.  You'll see the differences instantly.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy

>     George De Piro
>    
>    (Nyack, NY; on a galactic scale, I practically occupy the same space 
>     as Jeff Renner)

Bet I occupy practically the same space as *both* y'all!

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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 17:33:06 -0400
From: Mike Marshburn <mike48 at erols.com>
Subject: Square Coleman

Hello Brewers

I have ordered a square 10gal coleman cooler from the co-op and was
wondering if anyone has one for a mash tun? Will it stand up to mash
temps without warping? It's 11" square and about 23-25" tall and was $22
plus delivery. I have a 5gal igloo now with about 6ft of 3/8" copper
spiral wound, drilled 1/32 every 3/8" for a manifold that I will use in
the coleman. Watch out barley wine, here I come!!

Mike M Va Beach, Va////mike48 at erols.com

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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:30:19 -0800
From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: More hydrometer calibration stuff ... 


Question: I'd like to use the CRC Handbook of Chemistry to assist with
calibrating my hydrometer ... since lately there's been some discretion
between mine and my brother's.

On p.D-275 of the '83-'84 edition, is a table that shows specific gravity
versus lbs of solute dissolved per gallon (or grams dissolved per liter). 
I guess you just dump the required weight of sugar into a container that's
calibrated in gallons (or liters), then add and mix water to get to exactly
1 gallon (liter), right?  That way, you have the required gallon (liter) of
solution with the required weight of solute (invert sugar).  My question
has to do with what the handbook calls "sugar".  The top of the page says
(at T=20C) to use "invert sugar" where "invert sugar" is an "equimolar
mixture of fructose and glucose obtained by hydrolyzing sucrose."  Now I
would guess that table sugar (sucrose, eh?) would be naturally hydrolized
just by sitting around in my Oregon atmosphere.  Shouldn't it be accurate
enough to just use the required weight of the table sugar as-is?  Or is
this "invert sugar" described in the handbook something else?

Signed,
"User of inaccurate hydrometers" (Brian Dixon)




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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 21:21:41 -0500
From: Mike Proffitt <mproffit at infinet.com>
Subject: Belgian Double Bottling

I just put a batch of a Belgian Double (og 1.068, fg 1.011) into a keg
so that I can bottle it using a counter pressure bottle filler.  My
understanding is that this is a beer that can definitely benefit from
aging.  Since I plan on aging the beer, would I be better off adding .75
cup corn sugar to prime it, or should I just force carbonate with CO2
gas?


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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:29:45 -0600 (CST)
From: mwmccaw at ix.netcom.com
Subject: sparkler effect, dispense pressure

It's amazing how fast the collective memory turns over!  
About 18 months ago, this same subject was dissected thoroughly in these very 
pages, and an amazingly simple technique to duplicate the effect of a sparkler
was talked about at some length.  I've been using it ever since, when I want 
that "Pub Head", and have never been disappointed.

Here it is: 
1) Get yourself a ten cc syringe, no needle necessary or wanted.  
An "oral" syringe will work just dandy, and may be easier to come by in some 
parts of the country.
2) Draw your beer normally, minimizing splashing, etc. - LEAVE A GOOD THIRD 
OF THE GLASS EMPTY!!
3) Suck 10 cc into the syringe, and force it out rapidly into the beer.
4) Watch in amazement as the huge whipped-cream consistency head develops.

That's it!  works anywhere, wins bar bets, amazes friends, and is cheap!

On to dispense pressure.  For several years, I have been keeping all my kegs 
at 8 pounds of dispense pressure.  I use a manifold with check valves for each
line.  As long as the kegs are not violently moved or shaken, I have 
had Kolsch at 31/2 volumes stay fully carbonated for the five or six months 
it took to finish off the keg.  I keep all my kegs in a chest freezer at 
48 deg. F. I had intended to build my own manifold with a separate pressure 
regulator (11 bucks apiece from C&H Sales - no affiliation) for each line, 
but found that that effort was completely unnecessary.  Anybody have a 
suggestion for what to do with my eight gas regulators?

Just my data point, YMMV.

Brew on,
Mike McCaw in Seattle
mwmccaw at ix.netcom.com


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Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:44:05 -0800
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: Maris Otter malt, other sundry items


Damn, I don't even use a hydrometer to determine if my ferment
is over.  Do I ever feel like a lazy slob.

Anyway, a while back there was a discussion of Maris Otter malt.
The gist of it was, the Maris Otter was giving stuck sparges
and in general was a real PITA (I think it might have been 
Michael Dowd who brought it up).  At the time, this was poo-poo'd,
and many folks came forward to defend the Otter.

I recently did 3 batches with the Hugh Baird Maris Otter malt, and I
can relate that if the crush is not done carefully, this malt is
indeed prone to the "sparge from hell".  My Phils Phloating Bottom
wouldn't handle it, and I had to switch to my old Zapap, with it's
larger hole size.  I think the main problem is that this malt is
extremely soft.  I've never come across anything this soft.  It seemed
like it would make tasty brew (mmm, soft beer), and indeed it seems
to, but it also makes quite a bit of flour and other small particles
when it's ground.  This has caused me all sorts of problems, and I
don't intend to continue using the Otter.  Bear in mind though, I
usually use pils malts, so pale ale malt practices are not my forte.

//

Thanks for all the feedback on the recipe posting.  Yes, I plan to
continue for a while, as I get hungry.  No, I won't be posting a
recipe for botulism.

//

There have been a few additions to my web pages that some might find
useful, including a graph of A.J.'s oxygen saturation data, the
components of the most common brands of yeast nutrient (i.e., what the
hell is this white stuff?), and a table of stopper sizes.

http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy

SM (2064 miles from Jeff Renner, neglecting space-time curvature)

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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 02:57:11 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Boil them grain experts!

Pat Babcock writes ...

>To all those (and there were many! Ah! The wealth of the HBD!) who 
>responded to my quandary regarding decoctions vs steeping: a hearty 
>thanks! The prevailing answer provided is quite correct, and the 
>first occurrence of it in my mailbox resulted in a resounding 
>forehead slap: Of course! The pH of the water is key!
 ...
>The grain in a decoction mash adjusts the pH to our typical ~5.0. The 
>water in a steep would be much closer to 7.0. Tannin extraction is 
>most allied to pH (*BIG* forehead slap there. What have I been 
>reading for the last several years right here in the ol 'Gest???). 
>Therefor, tannins would be more readily extracted by the steep than 
>the decoct.

Tho' it doesn't directly address the subject of steeped grains may I
suggest you check out my upcoming BT article on phenols (apologies for
the shameless plug).

The specialty malts which are typically steeped have more (due to high
kilning) degraded phenolic compounds, which may be more easily
released.  Also note that these malts lack the enzymes which can cause
phenols to polymerize, oxidize and so combine with protein and remain in
the break.  Add to this that in a steep the pH is suboptimal, the
water:grain ratio may be very high increasing phenolic extraction, and
the amount of protein available for protein-tannin complexing (break
formation) is limited and you have a formula for potential problems. 
The opposite would be true of a decoction boil.

Steve Alexander

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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 08:32:57 -0500
From: dajohnson at mail.biosis.org
Subject: Irish Moss and Yeast


     
     Hi all,
     
     i have 2 questions to address to anyone who cares to respond:
     
     1)  I've been seeing some posts recently talking about rehydrating 
     Irish Moss.  I've never done this and my results have been just fine, 
     but still i'm curious.  What are the reasons for doing this?
     
     2)  I have a Strong Scotch Ale in the secondary.  It should be fairly 
     high in alcohol (started out in the 1.090 range).  It has been in the 
     secondary (following a one week primary) for almost 3 weeks at about 
     40 degrees.  Having read many of the recent posts about pitching more 
     yeast for bottling really big beers,  would i NEED to do that for this 
     batch?  If so, how should it be done?
     
     Thanks a bunch,
     
     dan johnson
     Philly, PA



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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:24:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Bryan Fitzhugh <fitzhugh at students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Sexist Kitchen Rant

> Peeve Time.  I find the repeated references to "her kitchen" to be
> offensive BS.  I generally cook MORE than my wife and usually better.  I
> know that there are tons of other men and women that read the HBD who have
> crossover brewing/culinary interests and talents.  If some of you men don't
> cook and that job falls on your wife's shoulders, realize that you are not
> the rule.  Join the modern world and can the "her kitchen" crap.
> 
> 
> Lorne


/* My apologies for the lack of homebrewing content, but it seems that in
this case the defense of the integrity of the HBD takes precedence.  Was
going to send this privately but the thought that others might be falsely
persuaded left me uneasy. */

Lorne, 

	I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here.  I could
understand where you might take offense if people were out there saying
that only women belong in the kitchen and should be barefoot and pregnant,
but that's not the case at all.  What for those out there like myself
whose wife happens to be possessive over the kitchen and/or do most of the
cooking?  Is it wrong for me to refer to it as 'her kitchen' when
discussing my case (where she, herself, refers to it as such and our own
personal micro-society has no problem with said naming convention)? 
Indeed, it *is* her kitchen, for all intents and purposes.
	I just don't see why I should have to censor my life in order to
'protect' those with a high propensity to defend their interpretation of
political correctness.  Just because you're reading much more into
someone's words doesn't make them improper (refer to your inference that
somehow by using the words 'her kitchen' it follows that one believes
women cooking to be the rule)...

 -Bryan
<ranting away in my study...>



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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:42:56 -0500
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: Water

Concerning the addition of "topping off" water..

Here is something I have tried doing recently....

Near the end of the boil , the amount of wort has decreased 
significantly due to evaporation.  So, by boiling a quantity of 
additional water (separate from the wort) and adding it to the wort the 
boiling temperature is maintained.  I wait 'til near the end of the hour 
to avoid a boilover. - ONCE IS ENOUGH...  My brew pot is stainless steel 
and has a capacity of 24 quarts so, I can end up with about 4 out of 5 
gallons of wort in the brew pot at the end of the boil.  

Since I use use a copper immersion cooling coil, this extra amount of 
hot wort still only requires about 15 minutes to cool.

This reduces the potential for problems created by adding questionable 
cold water to the wort by reducing the amount of additional cold water 
required.

However, I am rather new to this hobby... I haven't seen any of the 
"experts" mention using this technique...Is this a poor practice?

E-mail OK

Thanks
Tom Clark


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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:24:32 -0500
From: melathome at juno.com (Mel D Irvin)
Subject: thanks:keg o-rings

Thanks for all the replys for removing the o-rings off my coke kegs. 
Cutting them with an exacto knife was the easiest since they are going to
be replaced anyways.

Mel

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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 11:35:15 est
From: paa3765 at dpsc.dla.mil (Steve Adams)
Subject: Topping off w/ Bottled H2O

I've gotten away with topping off with charcoal-filtered water many times with
no ill results; I think quite a bit of the bottled water is filtered that way,
too.  In fact, I thought that all bottled water here in PA had to be filtered,
whether it's billed as spring water or not.  I believe tap water has to have
less than 1 part coliform per billion.  If you filter the chlorine out, then the
water should be OK given a fast-starting, vigorous fermentation.  This is more
of an issue for stove top brewers who are topping off with 2-3 gallons
sometimes.   This shouldn't be too much of an issue for all grain brewers.  I
try not to top off that stuff at all unless I have to.

Strictly speaking, boiling is the right way, but I have to wonder which ends up
with more undesirable microbes, the filtered water or the water that the average
guy boils and chills at home?  

SA


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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:46:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Seyler <tad at bimcore.emory.edu>
Subject: Freezing malt

I am sure this is a question that some one from more northern climes can
answer. I have a bag of M&F pale ale malt that contained a few bugs.  I
quarantined the malt into two sealed 5 gal. buckets and have stored it for
the last monthh or so in a storage closet outside.  The weather has been
cold enough to freeze the malt a number of times over the time it has been
stored there.  It has remained dry and not been exposed to plaid.  My
question is: Will this malt mash properly, now that it has been frozen?  I
got the malt free (because it was tainted) but would hate to lose it,
nonetheless.  Before freezing, it made a delicious dry bug stout.  IMMR? 
Thanks! 

- --Tad in Athens, GA




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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:35:20 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Starch and dextrins in beer

     Hi all,
     
     A few issues ago (probably weeks ago by the time this gets published) 
     Al questioned my statement that starchy beer will lead to infections 
     by supporting bacterial growth.  He pointed out that there are other 
     compounds in the wort that aren't fermentable by brewers yeast, but 
     that are probably fermentable by some other bugs (i.e., dextrins).
     
     Hmmm, I thought, that makes some sense.  Why is it that people say 
     that starch can lead to infections, but nobody worries about their 
     dextrinous beers?
     
     I don't know!  Darn good question!
     
     Can it be that dextrinous beers are more susceptible to infection than 
     drier beers?  Perhaps starchy beer is more susceptible to infection 
     because of the types of bugs that starch will support?  Maybe the 
     sheer quantity of starch that can found in a poorly made beer is the 
     key?
     
     Are any microbiologists out there that can shed some light on this?
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY; a quaint town on the western shore of the 
     mighty Hudson river, about 18 miles upstream of New York City)


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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 17:22:52 +0000
From: Bill Goodman <goodman at apwk01g1.nws.noaa.gov>
Subject: Bottled Water / Oatmeal Stout Question

In HBD 2577, Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com> wrote:

> To provide one datapoint, one of my first batches received a infection
> (likely wild yeast, since fermentation also behaved funny by
> continuing much longer than it should have) that eventually made the
> beer undrinkable due to an increasingly strong band-aid phenolic aroma
> and flavor. This batch was brewed using a concentrated boil, topped
> off by unboiled bottled water (I don't remember if it was spring
> water, but I believe it was). Since everything else in my brewing
> procedure seemed to be up to par in terms of sanitation, I believe the
> probability is that this infection came from the 3 gallons or so of
> unboiled water in the beer.

I had the same problem with my first homebrew attempt a month ago.  I
used unboiled bottled water for the entire batch and ended up with a
phenolic-tasting batch.  Wonder if this could also have come from
inadequately rinsing chlorine bleach sanitizing solution from my
fermenter and other equipment?  In any case, I got wise for my second
homebrew attempt by boiling all water and using Iodophor to sanitize
instead of chlorine bleach.

Now on to a question about my second attempt last week, an oatmeal
stout.  For a 5-gallon batch, I steeped 0.5 lb. steel cut oats (i.e.,
not pre-gelatinized like rolled oats) with 1 lb. of other specialty
grains (crystal, chocolate, roasted) at about 160 degrees F for 45
minutes before combining with other malt extracts.  Was this the correct
way to handle steel cut oats?  My homebrew supplier says that sounds OK,
but I read some postings to the rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup, in
response to someone else's questions about oatmeal stouts, that say you
must cook steel cut oats first to pre-gelatinize, and then mash.  I'm
confused...which is correct?  How will my brew turn out?

- --
Bill Goodman
Olney, MD

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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 12:24:45 -0500
From: Richard Scholz <rscholz at ml.com>
Subject: Top 10

Brewers,

Here's a little Table from The "Finacial Times Mon Dec 8 1997"

Top 10 Global Brewers, 1996
                                                     MILLION
COMPANY                        COUNTRY           HECTOLITERS
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Anheuser-Busch                 US                     110.7
Heineken                       NETHERLANDS             70.6
Miller Brewing Co.             US                      52.8
South African Breweries        SOUTH AFRICA            38.8
Companhia Cervejaria Brahma    BRAZIL                  38.3
InterBrew                      BELGIUM                 34.0
Carlsberg                      DENMARK                 32.3
Kirin Breweries                JAPAN                   32.2
Foster's Brewing Group         AUSTRALIA               27.3
Coor's Brewing Co.             US                      27.2
- -------------------------------------------------------------

Just thought I'd pass this along, so that all you advanced brewers 
could gauge how much you'll have to ramp up production to break 
into the TOP 10. 8^)
- -- 
Later,
Richard L Scholz
Merrill_Lynch,_Pierce,_Fenner_&_Smith_Inc.     \\\|///
phone #(212)449-8186, ____________________o000_(.) (.)_000o
rscholz at ml.com                                    U

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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 9:56:23 PST
From: Nick Bonfilio <nicholas at rattler.Remedy.COM>
Subject: Instrument for Sampling

I am looking for an instrument which can be used to take samples of beer from
a fermenter (6.5 gallon glass carboy) for hydrometer readings.  I would
like to get it as a gift for a friend.  If you have used such an instrument
and you like it, please let me know what it is and maybe where I can get it.
Thanks in advance.

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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:33:34 EST
From: Alpinessj <Alpinessj at aol.com>
Subject: Sexist kitchen, Yeast Shocking, Sparge Water Ph

Sexist Kitchen
I cook just as much as my wife does, but I was thrown out of "her kitchen" for
brewing after the first batch. Hell, its not just "her kitchen", its "her
whole house". I just pay the bills and live there - and make big messes, if
you ask her :-)

Yeast Shocking
Coming in on the yeast thread, I get the general consenses that "warm to cold"
shocking is bad. My question is, How fast is too fast to cool down the yeast
is you harvest it from an ale (~70 degeess F) and you want to store it in the
'fridge for a few weeks?

Sparge water Ph
I my continuing quest to increase my extraction efficiency, someone suggested
lowering the Ph of my sparge water might help. Currently I do not treat my
sparge water with anything. Ph out of the tap is ~7.0. Will lowering the Ph
help efficiency or just prevent extracting tannins? If it will help, what
should the Ph be and what chemical(s) should I use to lower it?

Merry Brewing,
Scott Jackson, The Jackson Backyard Brewery (since the 2nd batch)

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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 11:38 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Judgment Day...

It was a dark and dreary night. No sleep. Stomach tied up in knots for 3 
days. Can't digest any food, nervous as all get out. Got out of bed at 4:00, 
tried to eat, couldn't keep it in. The rain was pattering on the windows, 
thrumming on the skylights, lightening and thunder shaking the house and 
wind whistling in the trees just outside. What an auspicious way to begin 
Judgment Day.

I wasn't the only one with sleeping problems. Brian S was up at 3:00, trying 
to cram more information into his head, Beth woke about that early too, with 
nightmares about being stuck in a cage until she answered all the questions.

If you haven't guessed by now, this is a short report on taking the Beer 
Judge Certification Program (BJCP) exam. Four of us made the journey to 
Stockton on Saturday December 6. We had to answer 10 essay questions and 
judge 4 beers all within a 3 hour time limit. I never had 3 hours go by so 
fast before in my life. And when it was over, on the drive back we all 
commented about how emotionally deflated we felt. But by the time we got 
home, we were all back in good spirits and insulting each other as usual (I 
am NOT an old fart Brian).

Well, we had all studied hard for about 2 months, slacked off for a month or 
so and then crammed like crazy for the week before the test. It was 
exhausting because we all have regular full time jobs and significant others 
and families. But I think I can speak for all of us when I say it was worth 
it. We all know more about beer today in very positive ways. We know what 
styles are supposed to taste like, what kinds of ingredients it takes to 
make them taste that way, the processes and why we follow them and best of 
all, how to avoid problems.

A very hearty and heartfelt thank you to Dave Sapsis and Dave Brattstrom for 
your hosting some of our study sessions. I learned more from these two about 
filling out an evaluation form in 1 night than in all other studies.

I will say right here and now if anyone is interested in going through this 
process for the next exam cycle, I'll be more than happy to help out. Those 
weekly drunks were great!

Charley (relaxed once again) in N.Cal


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Date: 08 Dec 97 14:47:48 -0500
From: Jeffrey Rose <jeffrey_rose at eri.eisai.com>
Subject: Questions!

I'm new to the digest so please bear with me.  I don't know if any of
these topics has recently been discussed.

1.  I'm thinking of shelling out the $$$ for a stainless steel
mash/lautering tun.  What is the best way to stabilize temperatures
during mashing
steps?  Is there a good way to insulate these things? (Keep in mind I
live
in New England and have to brew in my garage)

2.  I own a Foxx counter-pressure bottle filler that I haven't had much
luck with.  Pat Babcock over on AOL gave me a few pointers.  Any
experience
with these things?

3.  What exactly is a "hop-back" and what are the advantages of this
gadjet over dry-hopping?

4.  I usually don't worry too much about hop sludge/trub in my primary
and the beers come out tasting fine.  What are the advantages of
minimizing
or getting rid of this stuff before pitching yeast?

5.  the "beer stone"...does anyone have one of these?  I picked one up a
little while ago but haven't gotten around to trying it.  Do they work? 
Why would I use this to force carbonate a Corny keg when the old way is
pretty effective?  Would they be useful to lightly carbonate beer in
growlers
(even though the directions say never to do this!)?

6.  I've never been able to produce a "nutty" flavor in one of my brown
ales or porters.  Does toasting grain accomplish this?

7.  My favorite pale ale is Whitbread.  Does anyone have a clone recipe
that closely approximates this?

8.  I just tried an Orval Trappist ale and found it to smell like a men's
urinal at a seedy gas station.  Was this beer spoiled or do true
connoisseurs like Michael Jackson actually fancy that urinal-fresh
flavor?




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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:49:38 -0500
From: David A Bradley <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at LILLY.COM>
Subject: Elect Hot Liquor Tanks?!?


I'm looking for an appropriate 25+ gallon vessel to use as a hot liquor tank,
to be fired via electricity.  I'm all set to add element + controller to
something,
but I've not found any good vessel.  I strongly doubt the structural integrity
of
any larger polyethylene (aka the bucket material) at temps as high as 180F.
Other plastics (polypropylene for example) are just too expensive.
Anyone have any good suggestions?

Here's my latest thought: an electric water heater.  You can buy a 30gal "Low
Boy"
unit, a short and fat style which might fit atop a stand and still fit in my
house, for
$150.  My question: anyone done this, and can you take the top off of one for
cleaning/demineralizing?  Lime build-up and ease of water treatment are my
only
big concerns right now.  And the ca$h.  Anyone tried this?  Thanks, and
brew-on!

Dave in Indy
Home of the 3-B Brewery, (v.) Ltd.



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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:08:39 -0600
From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner)
Subject: Re: brewing with a microwave

     From:
     brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com at smtp

     [snip]
     
     Just a minor word of warning guys ... nothing wrong with boiling in a 
     microwave, as far as I know because I haven't tried it.  Francois is 
     looking for a way of doing a full boil, e.g. 30 minutes to 2 hours or 
     so, while Lou is talking about a short boil for starters.  Francois is 
     probably ok, but watch out Lou!  2 things are necessary for 
     sterilizing via boiling, a) temperature (you're ok here), and b) time 
     (oops!).  It takes between 10 and 15 full minutes to sterilize by 
     boiling, hence the usual requirement to do a 15 minute boil when 
     preparing starters.  
     
     [snip]
     
     Brian is right to be concerned here.  Without trying to reignite the 
     dreaded "B" thread, sterilization requires both time and temp.  My 
     description was not exactly an accurate portrayal.  The microwave 
     timer is set for 2 or 3 minutes once boiling commences.  However, the 
     elapsed time is much longer than that.  Boiling tends to cause foaming 
     out of the jar unless I pay close attention and open the microwave 
     door each time the foam begins to rise.  The timer stops, but the 
     starter wort remains at or near boiling even with the microwave off.  
     Once foaming subsides, I restart the microwave.  Total elapsed time is 
     well over 10 minutes, probably closer to 20.  When the starter is 
     sufficiently boiled, the canning lid ring is placed on and tightened 
     down.  The starter wort is not quick cooled.  It stays hot enough to 
     maintain a pasteurizing affect for another 30 minutes or so.  I've 
     considered going to a boiling waterbath for my starters.  Watching the 
     thing in the microwave oven can be a PITA.  But getting up to boiling 
     is soooo much faster.  And old habits die hard.  Maybe I've been 
     lucky, but I haven't had an infected starter as best I can tell.  And 
     I oxygenate by swirling it in air.  Maybe I could nominate my better 
     half for brewer's assistant of the year for keeping such a sanitary 
     kitchen!
     
     Lou - Fermenting and formenting about 1330 miles southwest of Jeff R, 
     sort of in between Dave D and Ken S.  And with winter coming on, 
     looking for opportunities farther south!! Brrrrrrrr

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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 23:54:03 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com>
Subject: Takin' offense

  Hello to all,
Wow, Lorne is quite the sensitive guy.

>I find the repeated references to "her kitchen" to be
>offensive BS.  I generally cook MORE than my wife and usually better.
>If some of you men don't cook and that job falls on your wife's shoulders, 
>realize that you are not the rule.  Join the modern world and can the 
>"her kitchen" crap.

  Thank goodness you do not find Dave and Al's polite feuding to be 
offensive, or prolonged botulism discussion, or beginner questions.
Why, you might tell us all to cut the crap.
  I cook as much or more as my wife.  But I have what she calls "his"
brewroom, so that I will not destroy (mess up) "her" kitchen.  The closet 
is in our bedroom, but it is her closet.  We have a 4-door car, and a truck.
Guess which is "her" car?
  We are very proud that you are a modern guy, and do not mean for you 
to take offense at our writings.  And we promise not to tell you what can do,
and what you have "to can".  Hit the PgDn key if something bothers you,
and I promise to do the same.

Ray Estrella
Cottage Grove,  MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ********
hold it.....Lorne, relax.


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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:09:55 -0800
From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: Priming.

Bummage.  I cracked my Oatmeal Porter after 7 days and it's as flat as my
gradeschool sweetheart.  I checked my notes, and the last wimpy headed beer
was an oatmeal stout I brewed about a year ago.  Aha!  Oatmeal has something
to do with it.  Probably not.  Maybe its the temp of my brewery?  Maybe it's
the fact I brewed a lighter OG (1.050 v.s. 1.060 of the last 10 beers) beer
than I'm used to.  The real probable cause it that I've brewed the last 10
beers so well that the beer gods conspired and said "Mike needs to have a
suck beer once in a while".

Whats the deal?

Oatmeal Porter
1 lb quaker oats regular oatmeal 1 lb crushed grains, simmered in 2 gallons
water for 20 minutes, then added to the mash.
Mashed as usual (130 deg 15 min, 154 deg 90 min).
O.G. - 1.052
F.G - 1.014
Yeast 1968 ESB yeast (never has a problem priming)
1.25 Cups Malt extract at priming (used this amount in the last 7 beers - all
with terriffic carbonation)
Fermented at 66 deg for 34 days (primary and secondary).
Conditioning at 64 deg. For 7 days so far. FLAT.

Questions. 
 - Does oatmeal effect conditioning?
 - Does lower OG effect priming rates? (probably not)
 - Did I wait too long to bottle this high flocculant yeast? (again, probably
not).
 - Is the condtioning temp too low? (Last time I movingthe Oat Stout to a
higher temp room - did squat).

Any insight would help.  It tastes fantastic.  Would hate to blow this one.

 - Mike from Chicago.
NB=4 - IQ=40



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---