HOMEBREW Digest #2590 Tue 23 December 1997

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Server Downtime ("Pat Babcock")
  Wine Yeast vs Beer yeast (Jack Schmidling)
  cleaning blowoff tubes/pin lock fittings (John Wilkinson)
  Improved Hydrometer Readings ("Rich, Charles")
  A-B Bashing, Dopplebock? (Alpinessj)
  Re:  A-B ("George, Marshall E.")
  Problem getting TSP deposits off equipment (Bill Goodman)
  Valley Mill Gap Settings (Kyle Druey)
  Sodium Hypochlorite "Bleach" (The Kirbys)
  sparklers / nitrogen (MicahM1269)
  Re: Pils versus Pilsner (Brad McMahon)
  Hop Backs/Unions/Pils (jim)
  Fermenting under pressure (Jeff Renner)
  On Blowoff Tubes (Ted Chilcoat)
  Gott Cooler RIMS False Bottom (Brent Dowell)
  water suplies and Chlorine (Dave Sapsis)
  Orval/Brett. character (BR Rolya)
  Beta Glucans rest (Utesres)
  RE: Return of the RollerMill Thread! (Jack Schmidling)
  Question about Force Carbonation ("phil sides")
  Propane to Natural Gas Conversion (John Sullivan)
  Anheuser-Busch Alternate Perspective (John Sullivan)
  Re: Valley Mill settings - another data point (dfikar)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:59:24 -0500 From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com> Subject: Server Downtime Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager.... The long-awaited upgrade tothe server will take place this afternoon, 12/23/97. If you send an article, attempt to subscribe or unsubscribe, etc. and your submission bounces, that'll be the reason. Also note that pages sponsored by the Digest residing on the Digest server will be inaccessible during the upgrade. This upgrade should not interfere with delivery of the Digest. Thanks! See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org AOL FDN Beer & Brewing Maven BrewBeerd at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:34:29 -0800 From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net> Subject: Wine Yeast vs Beer yeast From: "Andrew W. Avis" <aavis at freenet.calgary.ab.ca> Subject: Ale vs. Wine Yeasts "While I'm posting to HBD, I may as well ask this question: Why is oxygenation not an issue w/ wine yeasts, at least not in the home wine making literature that I've read? I hate to seem so cynical but the homebrewing industry is orders of magnitudes larger than the home winemaking industry ever was. This presents two possible answers: There are greater opportunities in a larger market for people who say clever things about it. The more complicated it seems and the more dogmatic it gets, the easier it becomes to fill pages and pages with words of wisdom for hire or for free. The other possibility is that most homemade wine still tastes like homebrew did before we learned how to make it right. The reality is probably somewhere in between. I make my wine just like I make my beer and as I have said ad nausiam, simply letting the wort/must drop and splash into the fermenter seems to provide enough oxygen to make good stuff, at least in home brew sized batches. There is also the possibility that as wine must usually is not boiled, there will be more disolved oxygen in it. Although tangentially connected, there is an Applicaton Note on another aspect of aeration on our web page. js - -- Visit our WEB pages: Beer Stuff.........http://ays.net/jsp Astronomy.......http://user.mc.net/arf ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 13:38:46 CST From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: cleaning blowoff tubes/pin lock fittings Dave said: >The closed ( carboy and hose attached to lead the foam away) >fermenter's main appeal to homebrewers is that, at first glance, it >appears to be more resistant to infection from outside sources. >The first few times you use it, all may go well and that is the real >danger of this method. Infection is insidious. It is my opinion and >others agree (and others differ) that, unfortunately, this overflow >tube is difficult ( nearly impossible IMHO) to clean of this gunk and >represents a potential harbor for unwanted microorganisms. I don't think blowoff tubes are that likely a source of infection and cleaning should be no problem. If there is going to be an infection carried from the blowoff tube into the fermenter I think it could only be from the first few inches of the tube nearest the fermenter. The only possible way I can see for infection to be carried in is by receding foam from the ferment. This will only be in the first few inches of the tube. This much of the tube is easily reached with the fingers to clean. Filth in the rest of the tube shouldn't matter. Al said: >A 1-day soak in PBW or a week in 200ppm chlorine bleach makes that grungy >ring wipe off easily. I find that an hour or two soak with warm water and TSP cleans off the worst grunge without any scrubbing at all. TSP may not be available everywhere but if available it will be in a paint department. I swear by the stuff. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry Smith asked about replacement Cornelius pin lock fittings. South Bay Homebrew Supply at (800) 608-BREW has (or had a year or so ago) all sorts of pin and ball lock fittings. John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:20:09 -0800 From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at saros.com> Subject: Improved Hydrometer Readings Hello hello, Here's a simple trick that doubles your hydrometer sensitivity, uses a smaller sample size, and makes it easier to cope with high temperature samples. Steps : 1) take sample 2) dilute it with equal volume of water 3) take reading and double the fraction (i.e. 1.008 --> 1.016) I said it was simple. To make it easier I pre-marked a line on my sample well for the volume of liquid required to float the hydrometer for a reading, and a line at half of that volume. To use it, I fill the well with my sample to the halfway line then top off with water to the full volume line then plop in my hydrometer. You can get those lines by filling your sample well with water until it floats the hydrometer (with a little extra for those sub-1.000 gravities), remove the hydrometer and measure the volume of water. I rounded that up to a little more convenient number, in my case 150 ml, your mileage may vary. Pour that back into your well and mark a line at that liquid level. Next, empty the well and pour in 1/2 that volume and then mark that line. Because my hydrometer reads 1.000 in 60F water I trust it more toward the lower end of the scale. This technique pulls your readings closer to those ranges. If yours doesn't read 1.000 with water, just note the difference and add it to your measurements to compensate for instrument error. When taking high temperature samples the dilution brings the temperature down so it's easier to cool it the rest of the way to 60F, or if you use temperature correction tables, the lower temperature is less squirrely so the corrections are a little more reliable. You can use ice water to dilute, or warm water depending on whether your sample is warmer or colder than 60F. Cheers, Charles Rich (Seattle, USA) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:23:42 EST From: Alpinessj <Alpinessj at aol.com> Subject: A-B Bashing, Dopplebock? It must be the hectic holidays getting to me, but I just have to get in on the current A-B thread. First, A-B is being hypocritical on the "Truth-in-Labeling" issue. They want Sam Adams and Pete's to have exactly where they were brewed on the bottle, but A-B is not willing to do the same. They brew beer all over the US, (granted, they own all the breweries) but they won't make different cans and labels for all the different locations. It is a big cost issue, but they want everyone else to spend the money for all the labels, but they don't want to do it themselves. This whole issue was effectively shot down on a national level (or bogged down in the ATF, where it will either get lost or burned), so now A-B is trying bring it up state by state. Just trying to tighten the screws more on the little guys. Its bad enough that A-B has brainwashed the general public into drinking their hopless, half-rice swill, but now that there are a lot of brewers turning out good beer, they want to crush them any way they can so the A-B market share can be back to 99% or whatever the hell it was 5 years ago. To me, the issue is whether the beer is good or not. Can't they just let brewers making good beer alone, and quit the senseless attacks? (can you tell I'm raving yet?) Now for a craft-beer related topic. If you make a "dopplebock" style beer with an ale yeast, wouldn't it be an Old Ale? Hoppy Holidays, Scott Jackson, The Jackson Backyard Brewery "So worked up by now I almost spilled my Celebration Ale" Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:56:07 -0600 From: "George, Marshall E." <MGeorge at bridge.com> Subject: Re: A-B >From my earlier post about A-B and their stance on labeling: In HBD 2585 Terry White wrote: <snip> It would be very interesting to see a listing of all the adjuncts and chemicals in some of the commercial beers out there. Sure, why not? Then we could see exactly what those 'Select Cereal Grains' are that make up Bud, Bud Light, etc. It would likely be mostly rice. And, we could see what the deal is why their beer in clear glass doesn't skunk - treated hop extract vs. hop flowers or pellets. In reply to Raymond Esterella: I don't have a problem with the idea of 'Truth In Labeling'. What gets me is that A-B is pushing it only in Missouri at this time, which will force everyone but them to do special labeling just to sell their beer in Missouri. I know Sam Adams makes his beer in Oregon; I've walked on the street where the brewery is, and I believe that they are coming clean on their labels now. But because A-B decides to take this 'Holier than Thou' attitude towards contract brewing, that's what gets me riled. What the hell are small brewers with limited capital supposed to do? If contract brewing wasn't done, it's likely many breweries would never get beyond their local area. As for the 'Skunky' beer thing, I'm a homebrewer and I do know what causes 'skunky' beer. The whole point there is that they ride this HUGE bandwagon about 'skunky' beer, and yet they package 2 of their beers in bottles that are the major factor in skunking. To me, that's being hypocritical. When they point out about 'skunky' beer (the 2 that immediately come to my mind are Corona - clear glass! and Heineken) in their ads, and yet produce a product in a container that is KNOWN to aid in skunking beer, that's being hypocritical. It's not misleading; they are in no way saying that their packaging won't skunk a beer. I also think that they take a cheap shot when they use treated hop oil instead of whole hops or pellets in making their beer just so they can get away with clear glass. If you use whole hops or pellets, even the most delicate of beers will skunk if you give it the opportunity. Once again, I re-iterate that there are some A-B products out that I do like. Even Bud Ice isn't bad; I just think that A-B needs to lighten up on the little guy. Finally, I retract my final statement about adjuncts. It wasn't well stated. Marshall George Edwardsville, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:30:50 +0000 From: Bill Goodman <goodman at apwk01g1.nws.noaa.gov> Subject: Problem getting TSP deposits off equipment Anyone know how to get tri-sodium phosphate deposits off my homebrew equipment? Bleach, vinegar, very hot water? How strong a solution, and how long a soak? What happened was that I had filled the kitchen sink with a solution of 3 tablespoon TSP anmd 3 gallons very hot water to soak a few items for several hours. When I came back to rinse, the water level had dropped, and the TSP dried on everything that became exposed to the air. Soaking in hot water (140 degrees F) didn't do a thing. It took a good scrub with a copper scouring pad just to get the stuff off bottles; how do I get it off plastic items such as tubing, "Wine/Beer Thief", etc.? Thanks for your help...think I'll stick to B-Brite from now on. :} - -- Bill Goodman Olney, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:37:54 -0800 From: Kyle Druey <kdldmd at lightspeed.net> Subject: Valley Mill Gap Settings HBD Collective: >I'm generally happy with my Valley Mill. I have one suspicion, though. >I wonder if the preset gaps on the mill are the same from mill to mill? >The instructions give you no clue as to which settings to use. I emailed Valley Brewing regarding this and they indicated that the gap settings do vary from mill to mill, and that is why they don't provide measurements. I resorted to using electrical wire to measure the gaps. The Ingersoll-Rand "Cameron Hydraulic Book" provides the following diameter size in inches for AWG copper wire: AWG Size Diameter (inches) - -------- ----------------- 18 0.0403 16 0.0508 14 0.0641 12 0.0808 Maybe some electrical types can verify this data, Kenny Schwartz? You could probably pick up 6" of all 4 sizes for a buck or two at your local mega-chain home-improvement store. Kyle Druey brewing in Bakersfield, CA Go WAZU Cougars in the Jan. 1 Rose Bowl! (no offense to the Ann Arbour Brewers Guild; Jeff, Spencer, Dan, et al) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 03:15:34 -0800 From: The Kirbys <bkirby at tdn.com> Subject: Sodium Hypochlorite "Bleach" Fellow Homebrewers, This is in response to a discussion between George De Piro and Dave Burley on the use (or depending on your viewpoint maybe misuse) of household bleach or sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) for cleaning and disinfection. I do not want to question or critisize either of these knowledgeable fellow brewers on whether bleach should or should not be used for homebrew disinfection. However, as a chemist that works in a chlor-alkali production facility I just wanted to clarify some technical points that were made in the discussion. 1) Sodium Hypochlorite is produced by reacting Caustic or NaOH with chlorine or Cl2 to produce NaOCl and NaCl. In order for this chemical to be 'stable' it is best to have a little excess NaOH, usually 0.5 g NaOH per liter. Seldom does it have more than that for two reasons. the first being it would cost more to produce it (unreacted chemical) and second there would be a dramatic impact on pH of the solution it was being added to. So, although a more concentrated solution would have a higher pH than a dilute one, it would be slight. 2) There are some places that do use NaOCl for water sterilization but they are in the minority because the strongest you can make this solution is about 17.5% (wt. %) and therefore it is about 82.5% water (if we ignore the salt that is formed in the reaction and the small excess NaOH). It can not be produced as a dry powder even as a dihydrate. That is most likely Ca(OCL)2 or bleach powder. The main advantages to Bleach is it is easy to meter, can be stored in a plasitic tank at ambient conditions as opposed to a high pressure cylinder that needs special handling, and the environmental regulations are somewhat less cumbersome. Adding Cl2 gas causes a lowering of the pH (since it is an acid gas) which could cause problems in some places. 3) The improved performance, if heated, is because the OCl ion is particularly reactive and increased heat accelerates that reaction. But it is not particularly selective and will react with whatever is available, whether that be microbes, plastic tubing, or skin. Repeated use often oxidizes the plasticizers in tubing which can make them brittle and could turn them opaque. I did not intend this to be a bleach lecture and some may consider it wasted bandwidth but the chemist in me wanted to clarify some of the discussion. I actually do homebrew and I use bleach as a disinfectant for my carboys. In fact, I keep a dilute bleach solution in them during storage. Since my nose no longer adequately smells chlorine I use my youngest daughter as my sniffer. I rinse with hot water, usually 3 times, and when she does not smell chlorine any more I figure it is ready. I have done 17 5-gallon batches without an infected one yet so it has been working for me. Brien Kirby Chemist and Brewer Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:59:15 EST From: MicahM1269 <MicahM1269 at aol.com> Subject: sparklers / nitrogen I've noted quite a discussion over the last week about the sparkler for dispensing beers, so I'll toss in my bit as well. I have been using ( or tinkering with ) old Guiness flow control faucets for several years. About a year ago, while cleaning the sparkler portion of the nozzle, I lost the little diffusor plate. The faucet will pour like a normal faucet without this peice. The diffusor plate is a thin disk with small perforations ( holes ) that the beer must be forced throught in order to get to your glass. Since I needed a new diffusor and couldn't find one to buy, I made up several. I had not previously noted the diameter of the perferations in the diffuser. So I made up several differing units. The hole sizes range from .010 - .030 inch the disks are in .005 inch increments. In playing with the differing size diffusers, I noticed that widing differing pour could be got from the same beer ( pressure / temperature being equal ) I use the very fine hole diffuser disks for stouts, porters and ales. And work up in hole sizes for more robust beers. I have not noted any variation in the longevity of hop nose from any faucet combo. I have encountered difficult in getting a reasonable pour with highly hopped beers and the finer perf diffusers. But unlike AK, I don't set around for hours just smelling my beer either. micah millspaw - brewer at large Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:07:08 +1000 From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au> Subject: Re: Pils versus Pilsner >I have a friend who has been to Germany a couple of times. His father is >from Germany. They insist that there is a difference between a Pils and a >Pilsener. I don't doubt them, I'm just curious what the technical >differences are. The only differences that they describe are that Pils is >only available on tap and it takes 7 (or is that 12?) minutes to pour from >the tap. What is the difference? TIA >Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI Well, the real difference is where it is from. "Pilsner" is an appellation meaning it comes from Plzen. So, Pilsner Urquell and Gambrinus are the only beers that can be called "Pilsner". Czechs, don't really know the word: Pilsner. They term beers either light "svetle", or dark "tmave" or "cerny (black)". If you mentioned Pilsner they understand you as meaning Urquell. So, the Germans term their Pilsner-like beer, Pils. I don't remember seeing any German beers being called Pilsner when I was there a few months back, but I wasn't looking. I can think of a few examples where they call it Pils. So, for the semi-technical bit. German pils have a little more bitterness than their Czech counterparts. Not just due to more hops, but because of harder water. Generally, the further north you go the more bitter it becomes. Hops, well as you might guess, Zatec(Saaz) hops are replaced by German varieties, such as Tettanger and Hallertau. The German brewers use decocotion mashes, contributing to the rocky head. They also use a small nozzle on their tap system which also helps with the head. So your friends' differences are not correct. Pils are available in bottles and on tap. I have plenty of labels of different Pils to back that up! Simply, Pils is from Germany and Pilsner is from the Czech Republic. Note: sometimes some Germans (probably not beer drinkers) understand the difference being that Pils are diet beers and Pilsners are not. This is also wrong, but based on some old German advertising campaigns. zdravi and prost! Brad Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:18:34 +0000 From: jim at victorybeer.com Subject: Hop Backs/Unions/Pils >3. What exactly is a "hop-back" and what are the advantages of this >gadjet over dry-hopping? <It's basically a container with a screen in the bottom. It is used <to strain out whole hops after the boil and you can add additional <whole hops to the hop back (aka hop jack) for aroma. Dry hopping <lends a more powerful aroma than that you get from a hop back <because the hops stay in contact with the beer far longer and <because many compounds evaporate from the hops used in the hop back Alternatively, many hop compounds are captured and carried over to the fermenter from hot wort which differ from the dry hoppping effects. <because it is used with hot wort. You also run the <risk of aerating <your hot wort when using a hop back (you want to <cool your wort <before aerating). You also get a different type of hop flavor and aroma from using a hop back versus dry hopping. Hop backs tend to yield a more elegent and integrated aroma and flavor than dry hopping which is a smack you in the face effect, IMO. Hot wort running over the hops is a very effective method to increase hop flavor. HSA in a hop back is not a very big issue for homebrewers, you have a lot of water vapor steaming off the hot wort and with a well designed hop back you will not get HSA to the point of problems, expecially with well cared for homebrew. Victory, as a whole hop brewery only, uses a hop back and I have yet to detect HSA issues in HopDevil IPA or other more delicate, malty, beers. <Hop sludge can clog the airlock or blowoff tube. Fermenting on the <break can increase higher alcohol production And just as bad, poor stability of the finished beer. Hot break is BAD BAD BAD! <The stone may increase the rate at which the beer carbonates, but I <don't think it is significantly faster. Depends on how you use it. If you bubble CO2 through the beer and vent under pressure you can carbonate fairly rapidly. < I would call these stones optional. You also may <want to consider how difficult they would be to sanitize... <boiling/pressure-cooking/autoclaving are the only reliable ways. Probably overkill. Nice thing about stones is you can use em for both carbonating beer and running O2 into the cold wort prior to fermentation. Ive never autoclaved my stones, just iodophor and good brewing practices including good yeast management and cell counts. Dave writes: >The Burton Union Scheme was a labor saver and >probably reduced infection as freshly cleaned kegs were used >as the fermenter and then sent off to the pub. The fact that it is >no longer used should tell you something. Actually I cant think of a more labor intensive system! BTW, Marstons only makes a tiny fraction of thier entire production using Unions. <I have a friend who has been to Germany a couple of times. His <father is from Germany. They insist that there is a difference <between a Pils and a Pilsener. Germans usually call slow poured beers of this type Pils, which is just short for Pilsner. They are probably making a distinction between Bohemian Pilseners and German Pils which are indeed very unique animals. Victory's Prima Pils is an example of German brewing methods while the classic Pilsner Urquell is the archetype which all other Bohemians are measured by. Prost! Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:13:58 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Fermenting under pressure "Bret A. Schuhmacher" <bas at healthcare.com> wrote about the advantages of fermenting in a 10 gallon corney with a pressure relief valve. If you were to affix an adjustable relief valve with a gauge, you would have the capability of fermenting a lager at 68F/30psi with a new German lager yeast that Dan McConnell at Yeast Culture Kit Co. has. It apparently produces true lager cleanness under these conditions, and allows shortened lagering at 50F/30psi. Reportedly this is becoming very common in Germany, allowing quick fermentation and lagering. I'd rather do it the traditional way, but for those without refrigeration capabilities, this is a good alternative. Standared disclaimer. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:09:59 -0600 From: Ted Chilcoat <tedc at xcaliber.com> Subject: On Blowoff Tubes I just wanted to quickly add my thoughts: I use a blowoff all the time on a 6 gallon glass carboy. Sometimes I get a blowoff, sometimes I don't. I don't worry about my tube getting dirty because it is made of glass. I bought them at my local homebrew shop and I sanitize it the same way I sanitize the rest of my equipment. It always gets sparkling clean no matter how thick the crud is that gets stuck on it during blowoff. I know that it is more expensive than plastic tubing, but the extra expense is worth it if you want to use a blowoff and are truly concerned about picking up an infection from plastic tubing. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:43:57 GMT From: bdowell at crl.com (Brent Dowell) Subject: Gott Cooler RIMS False Bottom Get this, Instead of me having to justify to my wife why I think I need = to blow a wad of cash on a RIM system, my wife has decided that she would like to purchase the components for me (pumps, PID, heater chamber). Cool! The one thing I haven't found much information on, is what to use as a = false bottom in my 10 gallon Gott Cooler. Currently, I use a Phalse Bottom, = but from what I've read, it appears that it may not have enough throughput for a = RIM application. I've seen some people use converted pizza pans, but I was = wanting something a little better than that. Any ideas? Any other advice on setting up a RIMS is more than welcome as= well. Thanks for your help Brent Brent Dowell I have no Idea who Jeff Lone Unknown Brewing Renner is or why he is the=20 Antioch Ca center of the HBD Universe but just so you can figure=20 out my relevant postion my=20 GPS coordinates are: N 37 58.336' W121 46.803 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:20:14 -0800 From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov> Subject: water suplies and Chlorine Dave admonishes George: >George, you ( and other people) are a little confused on this issue: >1)Municipal water treatment uses chlorine gas not sodium >hypochlorite, except in rare circumstances where pH adjustment >may be needed and this is the cheaper alterative. Sorry Dave, but *millions* of Northern Californians get their municipal water supply treated with sodium hypochlorite. Both the San Francisco Water Dept. (which provides water to lots of places other than just SF) and the East Bay Municipal Utility District (which serves the entire East Bay Area and some others) went away from Chlorine gas about 6 years ago. Both of these are surface water supplies derived from largely granitic watersheds that are naturally soft and pH neutral. The change was (purportedly) for safety reasons, as the gaseous form is one dangerous material -- especially given the area's tendency to get up and boogie (to say nothing of all us freaky-radical Berkeley leftists around). This change was met with dismay on the part of brewers, as the dose rate for the gas was around .3 ppm as compared to 1-1.5 ppm for bleach treatment. The difference was readily apparent to a trained nose. Bleach will readily dispate over time or with heat. Other water companies are using Chloramines, which are an even more stable form, and provide even greater concern for brewers. I strongly suggest that everyone try to get reliable information on *their* water, and make corrections as appropriate. Dave also suggests that low concentrations of bleach is inadequate for basic sanitation: >However, just like you wouldn't use chlorinated tap water as a >sanitizer, you shouldn't use low concentrations of bleach to do this. While some prefer it hot (or strong) while others like it cold (or weak), I fail to see how anyone who uses tapwater as a final rinse step can fail to see something illogical here. For many years, prior to using either Iodophor or peroxyacetic acid, I used bleach at concentrations that Dave would disapprove of (1:1000 yielding 55 ppm or thereabouts), with drip-dry, no rinse, without problems. There are thousands of unique ways to go about successful brewing -- many defy common wisdom. Just one of the things I like about it. One point that I am in total agreement with Dave on: The CRC handbook (mine is the 38th edition and I am the 5th owner) aint getting any better, just bigger! Cheers, and a great holiday to everyone. - --dave sapsis (somewhere due south of Santy) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:29:59 -0500 (EST) From: BR Rolya <brrolya at cs.columbia.edu> Subject: Orval/Brett. character Al K. wrote: >I've never had one that smelled like urine regardless of how old it >was, however. Perhaps it is an issue of semantics. Did it smell a >little like leather or horses? That's from the Brettanomyces >in Orval. Younger Orval smells strongly of Goldings... older Orval >smells more like a horse blanket. Both are outstanding. >Enjoying beer with a strong horsey aroma is an aquired taste. As George De Piro well knows, a pet peeve of mine is the use of the term "horsey/horse blanket" to describe that interesting aroma found in Belgian beers. Personally, I find the aroma to be similar to that of a well-tended compost pile, but certainly not like a horse blanket. As a rider and a brewer, I've never noticed even the remotest resemblance between Brettanomyces and horses & their blankets. I've even ridden horses in Belgium, and Belgian blankets don't smell like Brett. either. However, I've never ridden a horse with a blanket (in Belgium or elsewhere) while drinking a Belgian beer, so maybe that's why my perceptions are off. (I'm not on a crusade - yet - to change the Beer World's descriptive terms; just wanted to get in my proverbial $0.02) - BR Rolya Brewing, Drinking, Riding, & Sniffing Horse Blankets in NYC Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:07:13 EST From: Utesres <Utesres at aol.com> Subject: Beta Glucans rest Being an experimenter... I'm inclined to try using a small amount of flaked oats in a batch of pale ale, say 1/2 lb. oats, 9 lbs Maris Otter in a five gallon batch, maybe with 1/2 lb. crystal. The literature I've seen advises a beta glucans rest with pale lager malt to avoid problems with wort viscosity and stuck sparges, but I'd like to try it with a single infusion with Maris Otter straight to 154 degrees. I've never had a stuck sparge in about 30 all-grain batches, and have used flaked oats, rye, and barley before with no problems. So, the questions are: Is there any other reason to do the beta glucanase rest other than to avoid wort viscosity problems? What good qualities do flaked oats really add? Can these good qualities be had by skipping the low-temp rest, assuming no stuck sparge? - ----------------------------- Mike Utes Big Rock Il Give me a siphon and I shall move the wort. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:59:52 -0800 From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net> Subject: RE: Return of the RollerMill Thread! From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: RE: Return of the RollerMill Thread! " The knurling on the rollers has to grip the grain and the driven roller forces the grain through the gap, thereby turning the second roller. If it doesn't grip, the second roller won't turn. That is not as bad as it sounds.... Actually, it could be worse. As the knurls wear, like old men, they lose their bite. This is typically not a problem for homebrewers who rarely come close to wearing out rollers but it is a real consideration for the serious brewer. That is the reason we offer a gear drive option to actively drive the second roller for the heavy user. Roller wear is subtle and long before total failure, the efficency and throughput slowly drop off. We have always supplied mills with a "poor man's gear", (the Oring) even though it is probably not necessary. It just feels good to have both rollers turn all the time. This is also one of the reasons we only allow adjustment from one end. The Oring would not stay put or last very long if it was between rollers where the spacing was changed regularly. It is also difficult to make gears work properly when the spacing is changed. Remember Glatt? Not only changing the gear spacing but the gears were plastic and unreliable, to put it politely. What was worse, it would not work without gears because of the smaller roller. It is less of a problem with large diameter rollers but I have never seen a commercial mill without gears. js - -- Visit our WEB pages: Beer Stuff.........http://ays.net/jsp Astronomy.......http://user.mc.net/arf ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:13:50 PST From: "phil sides" <hopsock at hotmail.com> Subject: Question about Force Carbonation Anyone have a "works every time" method of force carbonating a keg? I always prime mine and I have pretty consistent results. I have only force carbonated twice, the last time over a year ago and I forget exactly what I did. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:40:27 -0800 From: John Sullivan <"sullvan at anet-stl.com" at anet-stl.com> Subject: Propane to Natural Gas Conversion A friend of mine sent this to me. Could search the archives but this might be quicker. Personal E-Mails are preferred and can be sent to Jeff at michalski_jm at castor.wustl.edu. Thanks in advance for your help. >I am in the process of building a three tier system and wish to >economically power it with natural gas. I have purchased three brinkman >propane burners under the assumption they could be adapted to natural >gas. I recall seeing something on hbd to support this belief months >ago. I believe it is simply redrilling the gas orifice on the brass "L" >inlet to a larger size to accomodate the lower pressure of the natural >gas. >Can anyone tell me the correct drill size? Has anyone else done this >modification? John Sullivan St. Louis, MO Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:42:26 -0800 From: John Sullivan <"sullvan at anet-stl.com" at anet-stl.com> Subject: Anheuser-Busch Alternate Perspective I haven't followed the whole thread but came upon Graham Barron's response to the A-B thread. There will always be backlash to A-B's competitive tactics. Now you can take it personally or you can see it as strictly business. A-B has a responsibility to their stockholders to maintain this competitive advanatage. If the courts say that what A-B is doing is legal or if A-B wins a case against a bunch of little guys then those people running A-B are doing their jobs. If I were an A-B stockholder, I would be rooting them on. If you take it personally or if you think that these tactics threaten micros and brewpubs, then you need to organize a CAMRA like organization which will develop tactics to hurt A-B in the marketplace. That is a daunting task since there are more of them (Bud drinkers) than us. > Right, but I think you're missing the point of the case. A-B is >pushing this thing because they won't have to change ANY of their >labels. A-B has won a ruling in the past (I guess from the BATF or a >judge somewhere) that says its allright for them to put "St. Louis, >Missouri" as the source of their beer regardless of where its made. If I were an executive at A-B, I would recommend that the champion of this idea get a huge bonus. It will save them millions. Great idea for A-B. >And as we all know, A-B has many breweries all over the country >manufacturing their filth. This is where we get off the track and you start wearing your emotions on your sleeve. A-B does not manufacture filth. A-B manufactures mass market beers that appeal to the largest cross-section of population possible. Now they have gotten into some "fuller flavored" beers recently that seem to miss the mark, but remember who they are marketing to. Certainly, it is not to you or I. Also, for the style that they are, Michelob and Budweiser are arguably two of the best beers (of that style) made in the world. A-B's quality control is the best in the WORLD, make no mistake about it. A-B knows what it is doing. > So this justifies their ad campaign that they're really concerned about > freshness and "truth"? I don't think so. I doubt their is any >difference between a skunked Bud and a fresh Bud (at least to my taste >"buds". I suspect then that you have no taste buds for their is a great difference between an old Bud and a fresh Bud. Bud actually has little opportunity to get "skunked". Take a Bud and put it on an unrefrigerated shelf. Wait 6 months, buy a fresh one and taste them side by side. If you can't tell a difference, then you have no taste buds. > The local craft brewers and brewpubs are the ones really concerned >about quality and freshness. > Actually the local guys are really only concerned about selling their product. As to A-B's not being concerned, that is true but then again it isn't. They are not overly concerned primarily because their beers NEVER sit on a shelf for very long. Consumption and production are very much in line with each other which means it moves off of the shelves quickly. It has been like this for many years. I work for Union Pacific and we a have a shipment monitoring contract with A-B. I can guarantee you that when a rail shipment is delayed (not only of raw materials but of product going to the marketplace), A-B is notified and proactive intervention is initiated to get that shipment where it needs to be ON TIME. A-B knows that they are under scrutiny in this whole freshness thing. Go to your local liquor store and try to find an old (more than a couple of months) A-B product on the shelves. > You don't hear ads from Pete's, Rogue, whatever saying A-B beer isn't >any good because they use lots of adjuncts. They have too much class to >do so, and are too busy pushing their own product. I don't know how this indicates that Pete's, Rogue, et. al. have class. I would suspect that they do not want to take on the A-B legal juggernaut. This is more likely the case than them having class. > > They would not say that because a lot of the worlds great beers use > >adjuncts. Belgian, Scotch and English Ales come to mind. Or it may have to do with the idea that these companies would like to reserve the right in the future to use adjuncts themselves without being called into question. > Right, but are those adjuncts designed to cheapen the beer in both >quality, flavor, and cost? No, they generally improve the product or >make it unique. What does rice or corn add to the beer to make it >better, in other than financial terms? Rice and corn are cheaper, but they are quite essential to making the American Lager substyles. The drinking public on the whole does not want full flavored malty beers. > Please don't interpret this as a flame or personal attack, but I'm >really dismayed that there are craft beer drinkers/home brewers out >there that will go to such lengths to defend A-B and their >anti-competitive, anti-craft brew tactics. > Now with all that said, I will say that the only time that I drink A-B products is when I am in a place that has no other beer such as wedding receptions and certain restaurants. I could choose to drink nothing, but I would rather have a Bud than nothing. Everyone is exercising their right to purchase or not purchase. I have had many people try my beer. Many love it, but a lot more would really rather have a Bud. Are they wrong or are they just expressing what their preferences are? Everyone is entitled to an opinion. My opinion is that A-B does a great job for its stockholders and makes the finest American Lagers in America. Competitive market practices are constantly under scrutiny and subject to judgement under our legal system. Conspiracy theories anyone? The real problem here is that we just prefer not to drink their beer. John Sullivan St. Louis, MO Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:40:34 -0600 (CST) From: dfikar at flash.net Subject: Re: Valley Mill settings - another data point >O2 how long?/Valley Mill/all-grain cost/bottled water/SO-lutions (Chris >Carolan) >I'm generally happy with my Valley Mill. I have one suspicion, though. >I wonder if the preset gaps on the mill are the same from mill to mill? >The instructions give you no clue as to which settings to use. If one >setting was the preset ideal, you'd think they'd include that info with >the mill. But the "find out for yourself" approach implies that each >mill may be different. For mine, I followed the suggestion posted >earlier in the HBD and use the second coarsest setting for my first >pass, and the third coarsest setting for my second pass. My extraction >has improved about 1.5 points per lb., but the husks seem quite torn >up, and the first few sparges were tricky to get running clear. I've >gotten better at it lately. I think it would be worthwhile for Valley >Mill owners to compare measurements of their gap settings. I haven't >measured mine yet, though. > I too find that the second coarsest setting on my Valley Mill gives the best crush. The third coarsest setting causes too much damage to the grain husk, IMO. I have only made three batches so far using my VM but I have noticed no drop in efficiency using only a single pass at the second coarsest setting. Previously I'd been having my local shop crush the grain with their JSP Malt Mill. - --------------------------------------------- Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX (dfikar at flash.net) Return to table of contents
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