---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Test messages, attachments, multi-part MIME ("Pat Babcock")
  Re: Exploding Bottles ("Pat Babcock")
  First Lager (Steelbrew)
  Non-alcoholic homebrew (Scott Kaczorowski)
  natural gas burners (Kenneth Sullivan)
  Re: Using Malto-Dextrin/Lactose ("Tkach, Christopher")
  overnight mashing ("Spies, James")
  mash time (bob farrell)
  Controlling Fermentation Temperature (SBireley)
  racking (Drew Buscareno)
  Over- vs. Underfilling (Al Korzonas)
  Stuck Ferment (John Varady)
  Corona vs. MaltMill (Al Korzonas)
  Rubber stoppers ("Kirk Harralson")
  Mash problems ("Kirk Harralson")
  RE: Nitrogen and stout taps (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Merry Christmas ("Rob Moline")
  A-B public service messages (Samuel Mize)
  Under carbonated... (Brian S Kuhl)
  Maris Otter Malt (Brian S Kuhl)
  NA BEER, Humor? (Jack Schmidling)
  Not a defense, didn't take offense. ("Raymond Estrella")
  Airlocks & Blow Off Tubes (Fred and Sue Nolke)
  CO2 volumes (mwmccaw)
  Valley Mill Gap Measurement (Ray Kruse)
  Brew Contests ("R.Lewis")
  Hempen Ale (DGofus)
  Triple Bock (Steve)
  Roller Wear... (MacRae Kevin J)
  Anheuser-Busch: Brewer Perspective (Randy Lee)
  Re: Maris Otter problems? (Pat Lohmann)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:36:49 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Test messages, attachments, multi-part MIME

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Recently, there has been a rash of test messages, messages containing 
attachments, and multi-part MIME encoded messages entering (and 
being tossed out of...) the queue. Just a reminder (and possibly new 
information on the attachments):

* Please DON'T send "test" messages to the Digest server. It wastes 
server overhead, and Karl's and my time since we have to go through 
every submission to the Digest in search of SPAM and other bad 
messages - whether you cancel it or not!

* The Digest will not process an attachment into your post. If you
are snacking off of something else, be sure to cut it and paste it
into your note or your note will appear as a blank or incomplete
message and get refused. This is not an attempt to censor, simply a
function intentionally left out of the server's capabilities.

* Be sure to TURN OFF MULTI-PART MIME on your e-mail client. HTML, 
Winmail information, rtf compression, etc. waste bandwidth and are 
not used by the Digest. Having any of the aforementioned encoding 
tacked onto the end of your message will get your message refused 
100% of the time. Again, not an attempt to censor, just to preserve 
bandwidth. Tis the season that the queue grows days long. Every 
little bit saved in message length helps to reduce the delay.


Happy Holidays!

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan          pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor            janitor@hbd.org
AOL FDN Beer & Brewing Maven        BrewBeerd at aol.com

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:07:41 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Re: Exploding Bottles

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

"Mark Ellis" <mellis at gribbles.com.au> ponders compressibility 
issues..

> Hang on a minute there. Please could some engineers etc jump in here
> any time and verify this. What I am about to say lacks a bit of the
> scientific stuff so please falme away!

No flames, just facts: Gasses are compressible. Liquids are not. 
This is why both air compressors and brake systems work. Your 
brakes work because the brake fluid is incompressible. Your tires 
inflate when you go to the air pump because gasses are. (NOTE: 
liquids with gasses dissolved in them ARE compressible, but not 
enough to be a consideration in our discussion.)

If you had excess fermentables and NO headspace, the pressure has
nowhere to go. KABLAM! as they say on that weird Nickelodeon show.
With adequate headspace, the gas in the headspace will compress
"cushioning" the force from the bottle walls. With inadequate
headspace, the pressure has nowhere to go but through the bottle
walls.

This is not to say that you don't run the risk of 
creating antipersonnel mines even with an inch or so of headspace. If 
there are excess fermentables to the extent that the head pressure 
exceeds the bursting strength of the container, you are once again in 
the ordnance manufacturing industry.
 
> I am led to believe that it is a combination of EXCESS head space of
> AIR and too much fermentable matter in the solution (beer) which
> will usually lead to exploding bottles. 

Drop the headspace comment and you're dead on.

> For instance, if anyone is completely stupid enough to try and fill
>  an empty  corny keg with compressed anything in gas form they will
> literally blow themselves up grenade style. 

Depends on the pressure. Most kegs are rated for a minimum of 180
psig. Most are quite a bit higher (For instance, mine are rated at
320 psig). I've never seen a brew generate more than 50 psig at
cellar temperatures in my brewery, and that seems reasonable. I
think what you were looking for was filling with compressed gas in
LIQUID form. There, you're right, but it's pretty tough to do. That
or "straight-gut" from the CO2 tank to the cornie. But that, again,
is pretty tough to do. No-one is likely to blow themselves up by
having excess fermentables in their kegged beer.

> Conversely, they greater the amount of fluid in the keg, the
> pressure will be such that the keg SHOULD simply split. Draw your
> own parallel with a bottle.

First, the failure mechanism wouldn't change simply because there is 
liquid inside. As opposed to glass, if the pressure ramp is gradual, 
like in freezing a sealed keg of water (ask Rich Byrnes...), the keg 
will usually gently rip itself up a seam or at some other weak point 
(like a sharp dent, for instance...). This is because it is nowhere 
near as brittle as glass it will yield before failure. Glass simply 
fails. - A keg  will go up like a grenade only if the pressure is an 
impulse ("immediate spike")  and of suffient force.

There really is no parallel to glass.

> Make sure fermentation has finished, dont overprime, and fill your
> bottle as high as possible. At least you probably wont kill
> yourself this way. 

This is the key! Great advice. Many, most recently and notably Jack
Schmidling, profess to brewing without a hydrometer. Hell, I
occassionally do myself. BUT: I've been brewing for over twenty
years, and only brew this way on tried, tested and true recipes.  I
*KNOW* these beers well enough to determine when they are finished.
If you don't have the experience in your brewery or with a
particular recipe to be able to tell when your beer has fermented
out w/o the use of a hydrometer, use one. There is no bravado or
machismo to not using one, and it will ultimately provide you data
which may prove useful in order for you to share or duplicate the
recipe later...

And I am an engineer. Hell, I even play one on the television (Well, 
at least until I "fix" it so much I have to buy a new one...)

Pat Babcock
pbabcock at oeonline.com
Launching the Renner-Positioning Satellite in SE Michigan
Hand-held RPS units are available wherever fine beer is sold.

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:40:09 EST
From: Steelbrew <Steelbrew at aol.com>
Subject: First Lager

Hey All,

I'm in the process of making my first lager, and I've got some questions.
What I've done is fermented the primary for one week in a cold room
where the temperature holds at about 52F. I then racked to a secondary
and put the beer in a water bath in my garage, where the temp is in the
mid to high 40s. Is this a good secondary temp (yeast is Wyeast 2308
Munich lager)? I'm considering adding frozen PET bottles to the water
bath, but would this make things get too cold? What about a diacytl
rest?

The inspiration for this beer was a bottle of Schlenkerla Rauchbier that
I received as a gift. Up until I tried this I had little interest in lagers.
Does anyone know if this beer is a smoked Marzen or a Bamberg-style
Rauchbier? The label mentions both names, but my German ain't too
good. If anyone has a good clone of this I would be very interested in
the recipe...

Dan Fox
Olympia, Washington

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 9:09:17 PST
From: Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at nfs.aisf.com>
Subject: Non-alcoholic homebrew


Sorry for the repetition, but the following has only been refuted once
(by Dave Burley) as far as I can tell, and it deserves further blasting:

> 1. Pre-heat the oven to 180 degrees F.
> 2. Place fermented beer in SS or enameled-pot in oven.
> 3. Leave in oven for 20-30 minutes, stirring occasionally.
> 4. Remove beer from oven and give final stir.

Absolutely, positively, under no circumstances, will this process EVER
produce anything even resembling a low alcohol beer, let alone a no-
alcohol brew, even assuming the poster meant "heat the *beer* to 180F and
hold for 20-30 minutes".

THIS WILL NOT WORK.  Not ever.  Not even sorta.  Not even if you do this
for several hours.

Sorry if that sounds condescending, but this is very dangerous advice.

If the intent is to reduce the alcohol so that one can drink 3 pints instead
of only 2 on a school night (worthy cause, IMO), then give it a whirl. 
What's to lose?  If the intent is to give the beer to someone who, for
whatever reason, cannot have alcohol, then please, don't even think about it.

I believe it was Dr. Maribeth Raines (apologies Dr. Raines, I believe your
name has changed?) who actually boiled off a substantial portion of homebrew
(on the order of 50%?), rehydrated, and found that the resulting beer still
contained substantial amounts of ethanol.

Most proponents of the "heat to X degrees (below boiling point of water)
Y minutes" assume that because the boiling point of ethanol is well below
that of water, that the alcohol will 'boil off' leaving the rest of the
beer relatively intact.  It simply doesn't work this way in practice.

Ken Schwartz was much closer to the mark when he suggested brewing something
like an OG 1.016 Porter and knocking the ferment down via either
refrigeration or filtering at about SG 1.010.

One final apology for all the guesswork on the particulars, but I believe
my points are otherwise sound.


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
kacz at nfs.aisf.com

  "The shape it takes could be yours to chose
   What you may win, what you may lose"


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:50:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Kenneth Sullivan <kenneth.sullivan at Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: natural gas burners

Happy Holidays,

	I am searching for the proper parts and method
to safely build a converted keg brewery
using natural gas burners and controls.

I can get used gas stove burner assemblies for $10 each.
I'm not sure I can convert these to work, anybody with
experience out there?   Know a supplier for parts?

I haven't had the digest for 9 months, so I apologize if this
subject has been beat to death.

Please respond to kjsulli at central.sun.com
Thanks,
KJ




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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:00:34 -0500
From: "Tkach, Christopher" <tkach at ctron.com>
Subject: Re: Using Malto-Dextrin/Lactose

Roy-

I had the same problem w/ a blueberry ale that I brewed up
this summer.  After all the fermentation had completed, the
nice blueberry flavor had disappeared and there was now a
strong sourness to the beer.  And in fact, I posted the
same questions to the hbd about it, try a search.  Everyone told
me not to use malto-dextrin at bottling because it may ferment,
etc...

Well, I went ahead and used it anyway.  Basically, I added 4oz
(I was going to add a full 8oz, but everyone got me pretty
scared) along w/ 3/4 cup of priming sugar at bottling, and I have
to say that the beer carbonated fine (ie no bottle bombs), and
wasn't too fizzy.  On the other hand, I'm not too sure if it
did much for the sourness, but that has subsided a bit and is
considerably less strong upon bottling (its been in the bottles
for 4 months now!).  I think if I was to do it again, I would add
8oz of malto-dextrin, and maybe 2/3 cup of priming sugar (just to
be on the safe side) for 5gal.  However, YMMV.

 - Chris
Newmarket, NH

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:01:36 -0500
From: "Spies, James" <Jams at mlis.state.md.us>
Subject: overnight mashing

Greetings all -

A question regarding overnight mashing . . .    In an attmpt to save
time and energy on brew day, as well as hopefully ensure complete
conversion, I would like to do an overnight mash in a 10-gallon Gott
cooler equipped with a Phil's Phloater  ;-)   My question is, will
letting the mash sit on top of the false bottom all night make it
difficult/impossible to recirculate the runoff?  If people have tried
this, do you recirculate a little to set the bed before going to bed
yourself, or just dough in and wait until morning to recirculate?  I
would like to avoid a stuck sparge if possible.  On a related note, are
there resources out there to determine the proper dough-in temperature
of the strike water using the amount and temperature of the grains as
calculation baselines?  I know I've seen them discussed in random
threads on the digest, but can't quite remember, and since I'm already
taking up bandwidth anyway . . .

As an aside, I can honestly say that I've learned more practical things
about brewing from simply reading this forum than I have from any other
resource out there.  Because of the HBD, I was able to make a very
smooth transition from extract to all-grain within one year of my first
batch.  Keep up the good discussions.  As an aside, much of the techie
stuff sails over my head like the proverbial flock of seagulls (lawyer
by trade), but  I usually read the (science) to help me get a
perspective on the (art).  This forum has the best of both.

As always, TIA . . .

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:56:15 -0800
From: bob farrell <bfarrell at windermere.com>
Subject: mash time

Getting ready for my first all-grain brew and I have a question about mash
time.

In "The BrewMaster's Bible by Stephen Snyder (page 25) the author states
"it is recommended that the mash not exceed 120 minutes unless absolutely
necessary to avoid extracting harsh tannins from the grain husks."

However in Zymurgy's "The Great Grain Issue" (1995, Vol. 18, No. 4) there
is an article on pages 66-67 "Mashing and Saving Time" where the author
recommends mashing overnight.  He states "the two major advantages to an
overnight mash are assurance of adequate saccharification (provided you
have good temperature control) and the time saved by sleeping while mashing."

I thought harsh tannin extraction was a problem caused by mash temperature,
is time a factor, too?

Anyone have first hand experience with overnight mashing?

Happy Holidays

Bob Farrell


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 13:51:00 EST
From: SBireley at renex.com
Subject: Controlling Fermentation Temperature

     I am new to HBD but have been an occaissonal reader over the past year 
     or so.  I am concerned about maintaining the desired temperature in 
     primary fermentation.  We typically brew 10 gallon batches and ferment 
     in a sankey type keg.  We have in the past fermented at an ambient 
     temperature of 68F, but recently discovered that the actual 
     temperature of the fermenting wort was 10 degrees higher!  We have 
     since started fermenting in a refrigerator using a temperature control 
     to control the compressor in the summer, and a light bulb to heat it 
     in the winter. (It is in my garage).  I am controlling the interior  
     temperature of the refrigerator, not the wort. At fermentation, I can 
     keep the refrigerator temperature at 58 and have a wort temperature of 
     66 F during the most active part fermentation.  As the fermentation 
     slows down after 3 days or so the temperature starts to drop and is at 
     58 2 days later.  Is this change in wort temperature a problem?  Does 
     anyone have any suggestions to maintain a consistent temperature 
     throughout fermentation?
     
     Thanks


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:30:33 -0800
From: Drew Buscareno <drewbuscareno at skyenet.net>
Subject: racking

I have been brewing for about two years with pretty good results.  I
have had some problems with racking from primary to secondary and from
secondary to my bottling bucket, especially since my brewing partner
moved away.  I typically fill my racking cane and hose with water to
start a siphon.  While not terribly difficult, this technique does pose
its challenges not the least of which is losing the siphon midway
through and aerating the wort.  Note I have tried Phil's siphon starter
and another brand without much luck.  The homebrew store I order from
just recommended starting the siphon with my mouth which is counter to
everything I have read.

Is there a fool proof way to rack beer from one carboy to the next and
what would the equipment cost?  Is there some sort of siphon starter
pump that has been developed for this very purpose?

I would appreciate any and all thoughts on this matter.

Drew Buscareno
South Bend, IN
drewbuscareno at skyenet.net

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:21:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Over- vs. Underfilling

Scott writes:
>I had some
>over-filled, and some under-filled bottles from the same batch, and I
>don't know exactly which ones broke.  I did note that when I relieved
>the pressure on these babies, the underfilled bottles seemed much more
>carbonated.  In fact they resulted in gushers.

I don't understand the science behind it, but I've proven to myself
many times (most recently this weekend) that underfilled bottles carbonate
no differently than "normally" filled bottles.  Overfilled bottles,
however, carbonate *much* slower and may actually end up less carbonated
no matter how long you wait.

If you were to overprime, bottle before the beer was fully fermented,
get a wild yeast infection or some combination of these, your overfilled
bottles may appear properly carbonated while the underfilled bottles
would be gushers.

I know others have repeated my experiment (posted in HBD... see the archives)
so maybe they will post their concurrence.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:35:27 -0500 (EST)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Stuck Ferment

I have four batches going currently that have all apparently stuck.

Maerzen w/Bavarian Lager, fermenting 3 weeks, O.G. 1055 Stuck  at  1022. Temp  at 
48F. Yeast pitched from the bottom of primary.

Porter w/German Ale, 2 weeks, O.G. 1057 Stuck  at  1026. Temp started  at  58F.
Moved to 64F when stuck. Yeast pitched from starter made from smack pack
stepped up 4 times over 1 week.

ESB w/Northwest ESB, 1 week, O.G. 1053 Stuck  at  1024. Temp  at  64F. Yeast
direct from brewery.

IPA w/Northwest ESB, 1 week, O.G. 1060 Stuck  at  1028. Temp  at  64F. Yeast
direct from brewery.

I am beginning to seriously suspect my aeration technique. I pump cooled
wort from the kettle and spray it into the fermenter. This raises lots of
foam and I will usually have to start filling the second carboy while the
first one settles before I can top it up.

I pitch large quantities of yeast, either from the bottom of a primary or
fresh from a local brewery.

All batches started out quick, developed krausen and fermented strong. Each
batch is in two 6.75 gallons carboys or three 5 gallon carboys. All carboys
filled from a batch exhibited the same behavior and stuck gravity.

Is there anything I can do to fix the problem? I have tried dropping one of
the ESB's to see if that gets it going. I have almost every carboy I own
tied up with these brews. I normally keg but was hoping to put up some
bottles for summer. I don't want bottle bombs so I need to resolve this.

Tanks,
John Varady                     * New email address ***> rust1d at usa.net
Glenside, PA


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:43:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Corona vs. MaltMill

Just a data point...

Back when I used to own a HB supply store, a customer who had been using
a Corona mill for many years, bought a MaltMill.  He called me later to
let me know that his average efficiency had improved 20%.

I know of two microbreweries that used Coronas and I know they have made
great beer with them, but I feel that rollermills result in far better
crushes with far less adjusting and consistently better efficiency.  With
the Corona you have a tradeoff between uncrushed malt and fractured husks.

Use a Corona for making tortillas... use a rollermill for making beer.

The right tool for the right job.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 15:38:54 -0500
From: "Kirk Harralson"<kwh at ismd.ups.com>
Subject: Rubber stoppers


     The recent posts warning about possible infections from scratched 
     plastic fermenters makes me wonder about the rubber stoppers in 
     the top of glass fermenters -- wouldn't these be just as likely 
     (if not moreso) to harbor nasties?  My stoppers look pretty 
     rough, and I'm sure there are MANY microscopic crevices for these 
     little critters to set up shop.  I ferment exclusively in glass, 
     but I only see two advantages:  watching fermentation is really 
     cool; and, my dog can't get into a carboy (yet).  The biggest 
     drawback to glass, in my opinion, is the possibility of dropping 
     a full carboy.  I've been very lucky so far, but every time I 
     carry a carboy down the steps to my basement, I get a little 
     paranoid.  As creative as some of the people on this list are, 
     I'm sure someone will find a better way.
     
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 15:55:13 -0500
From: "Kirk Harralson"<kwh at ismd.ups.com>
Subject: Mash problems


     For some reason, my latest mash did not go too well.  First, my 
     initial runnings would NOT clear.  I usually only have to 
     recirculate a cup or two with my Easymasher.  I recirculated 
     almost a gallon, and the runnings never did clear!  I used my 
     typical lazy man's mash schedule (90 minutes at 155F); same crush 
     setting on my mill as always; no adjuncts.  In other words, the 
     same procedure I've used hundreds of times before.  The hot break 
     was phenomenal.  I had at least 3/4 gallon of "gunk" left in the 
     kettle, and about 3.5 inches in the bottom of the carboy made it 
     through.  The only thing I could think of that was different 
     about this batch was that the malt (2 row American) was about a 
     year old.  Would this make any difference?  Other than this, I 
     don't have a clue what the problem(s) was.
     
     As this will probably be my last post of the year, I'd like to 
     take a little bandwidth to wish everyone on the list a happy 
     holiday season, and a new year filled with many occasions to 
     celebrate with a homebrew to be proud of!
     
     Cheers to all!
     
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:42:20 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Nitrogen and stout taps

From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>

>The reason nitrogen is used to dispense beer is not to
>produce a nice head, it is because it can be dispensed at a
>higher pressure without causing additional carbonation and
>the foam that goes with it.  It's so they can sell more
>beer faster not to make tiny bubbles.

>Don't feel bad, I got sucked into it too but now I am back
>to good old CO2.  The reason I am so smart is because I have
>made so many mistakes.

Well, dunno, it would seem like a lot of trouble and expense for the
purpose of selling beer faster, after all, how fast can customers drink
it?

It has always been my experience that the nitrogen/CO2 mixture with the
special tap actually is a slower pour.  I have watched as the Barista
dispensed, waited, dispensed, waited, and asked my patience for the full
pint.

Guess you are getting smarter yet, Jack!  :>)

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:02:22 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: Merry Christmas

		Twas the morn after Christmas
			By Roger Grow

'Twas the morn after Christmas and all through the house
My homebrew was missing, consumed by some louse;
The kegs in the reefer had been sucked dry with malice
And small sooty footprints, they riddled my palace;

I checked in the corner, Grand Cru had been taken
But the Coors Extra Gold had all been forsaken;
Who was responsible for this gluttonous action
Could it have been Charlie? or perhaps Michael Jackson?;

I walked back to the fireplace my mood in a slump,
When I noticed my stocking had a generous lump;
Out the top hops were bulging, Hallertauer Mittelfrueh,
Cascades and Fuggles, East Kent in there too;

I had a sneaky suspicion who the culprit might be
When my eye caught a glitter from under the tree;
A pot, all of stainless and cane, made for racking
Confirmed my suspicion as to who'd done the sacking;

I decided directly it was that jolly old elf
And that bowl full of jelly didn't appear by itself;
Those cheeks o-so-rosy were a giveaway too
A glowing reminder of his taste for homebrew;

I decided being Christmas, I'd forgive the fat fellow
When I saw in the front yard, something twisting and yellow;
I looked somewhat closer and what did I see
But "thanks for the homebrew" in the snow, penned with pee:

So from this Christmas forward, my plans they are clear
I'll exploit Santa's weakness for hand crafted beer;
Just send him my wish list and to clinch my vast order
There'll be no milk and cookies, just pretzels and porter.

	Roger Grow is a member of "The Tribe" homebrewing club of Longmont,
Colorado. The Tribe currently holds the record for the highest altitude
batch of homebrew. Thanks Curt!
	
	And "Hoppy Christmas and a Malty New Year" from Jethro Gump!

Cheers!
Jethro

Rob Moline
Brewer At Large
brewer at ames.net
Ames, Iowa.

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:40:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: A-B public service messages

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> HOMEBREW Digest #2588		             Sat 20 December 1997

> From: Graham Barron <gbarron at cq.com>
> Subject: Re: A-B attacks

> Raymond Estrella wrote a defense of A-B's most recent tactics in trying to
> drive out competition in the craft beer industry.  He wrote:
> 
> >  I am not a fan of A-B but I would not mind seeing the true birth (brew) 
> >place
> >of the beers that I buy.
> >  Your buddy Sam Adams, (J.K.) makes his Oregon Originals, that are not
> >made in Oregon, nor are original. It is called misleading marketing, and it
> >works.  Boy, are we gullible.

If the "Oregon Originals" are not contracted to Oregon brewers, the
name seems misleading.  On the other hand, the last I read, the
Oregon craft brewing trade organization had pulled out of the lawsuit.
They were still mad at Koch, but they said that A-B was using it as a
marketing tool, and hurting them also (rough paraphrase from memory).

I don't consider A-B et al quite as nefarious as some folks do -- but
I certainly don't consider their ads to be motivated by public spirit!

I'd consider "Oregon Originals" a special case.  Normally, I don't
care WHERE a beer was made.  I'm concerned about how it's been stored
and handled, which has FAR more to do with who's distributing and
storing it.  One delivery simian can skunk your beer while he brings
it into the store -- it takes maybe a minute of daylight, longer if
the bottle is green.

> If nothing beats a Bud, given the choice, I'd take the nothing...

Perhaps:

    Nothing is better than Bud, and you can still drive too!

Best,
Sam Mize - I'm in Texas, Irving.

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 15:59:00 PST
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Under carbonated...

Hi Jay,
You might save this batch with little trouble. How is your temperature 
where you are bottle conditioning? Try to keep the temperature up to 
about 72 degrees or so. I even roust the yeast in the bottled by rocking 
the cases. Do this every other day for a week. 
I was starting to get this problem because I was too careful racking. 
Now, I make sure to transfer a little yeast from the bottom into the 
bottling bucket.
Good Luck,
Brian

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 16:05:00 PST
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Maris Otter Malt

Hello all,
After hearing what peoples experiences were with Maris Otter malt, I was 
wondering how people like the taste. I have heard that this malt is one 
of the best malts to use. I have a batch of APA going now in which I 
used this malt. Since this is the first time I have used this malt, I 
cannot comment on it's taste contribution to this beer; however, I 
didn't have any sparge issues with my copper manifold setup.
Comments please...
Merry Christmas,
Brian

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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:54:45 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: NA BEER, Humor?

"Liquid Man" aka Craig Myers says:

>As to your question of NA brews:

>1. Pre-heat the oven to 180 degrees F.
>2. Place fermented beer in SS or enameled-pot in oven.
>3. Leave in oven for 20-30 minutes, stirring occasionally.
>4. Remove beer from oven and give final stir.

You make a point of pre-heating the oven but seem to have forgotten
to pre-heat the beer.  I doubt that you could measure the amount
of alcohol driven off with that process.  The BEER must be held
at about that temperature for about that amount of time, not the
air in the oven.

The simple fix is to put the beer on top of the stove and heat
it till the BEER is 180 F.  You may then turn off the stove and
let it air-cool for 30 minutes, chill and keg.

There is an Applicaton Note on my web page on a process I worked
out along with lab analysis of the beer after processing.  The bottom
line is you can not get rid of all the alcohol without additional
steps but you can get rid of enough that it will not turn on
an alcoholic person.


Bill says:

"Save your money and don't buy an expensive mill, get a Corona.

Some of us just have money to burn and love to throw it away on
expensive yuppie toys.

I bought a Corona, motorized it and use it on a regular basis.
My life would not be complete without it.  You see, there is
a wheat farmer across the road and the Corona is vastly superior
to the MM for turning raw wheat into flour for my bread.

The complete yuppie has both.

js 

- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 01:58:40 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com>
Subject: Not a defense, didn't take offense.

  Hello to all, and Merry Christmas.
Graham Barron mistakenly writes about my A-B post,

>Raymond Estrella wrote a defense of A-B's most recent tactics in trying to
>drive out competition in the craft beer industry.  

Read it again.  I am not defending A-B.  I am saying that we should not let
emotions and ignorance get in the way of logical thinking.  I do not like A-B,
especially the strong arm tactics that they are pulling with beer 
distributors.
That hurts my ability to get the beer that I do want. (Not A-B products)
  I met, and had a very interesting conservation with the master brewer of 
A-B's
specialty line.  He listened, and agreed with me (on a few points) that their
beers are not really to the styles that they are claiming to be.  He is as big 
a
beer geek as you or me, he just gets a 400 bbl system to experiment with.
I told him that I do not drink any of the Bud derivatives, and will most 
likely try
the specials only once.  I do not buy "micros" like Blue Moon (Coors) or
Elk River (A-B) because of who they are owned by. (How about Redhook)
I have been drinking good beer (foreign) for 18 years, and micro-brews,
like Sierra Nevada, Summit, and Full Sail as they came into existence.

>So this justifies their ad campaign that they're really concerned about
>freshness and "truth"?  The local craft brewers and brewpubs are the 
>ones really concerned about quality and freshness.

  Of course their not really concerned about the truth.  They are only 
concerned with making the most money.  But you are kidding yourself if 
you believe that they do not watch product quality.  When is the last time
you had, or heard of a bad BudMillersCoors.  I have had two craft-brews,
and one UK ale that were bad in the last 6 weeks.  And as far as brew-pubs,
ask our buddy Rob Moline what some owners are more concerned with,
money....or quality and freshness.

>>  They would not say that because a lot of the worlds great beers use 
>>adjuncts.  Belgian, Scotch and English Ales come to mind.

>Right, but are those adjuncts designed to cheapen the beer in both quality,
>flavor, and cost?  No, they generally improve the product or make it
>unique.  What does rice or corn add to the beer to make it better, in other
>than financial terms?
>Please don't interpret this as a flame or personal attack, but I'm really
>dismayed that there are craft beer drinkers/home brewers out there that
>will go to such lengths to defend A-B and  their anti-competitive,
>anti-craft brew tactics.

  Unfortunately the reason that 95% of beer sold in the US is bland crap, 
is that is what Joe Average likes and wants.  I wish that dark and sweet,
nice and hoppy, or rich and malty beers comprised 95% of the market.
But until we get taste-educated drinkers out there it wont happen.  I am doing
my part, and it does not include pretending that mega-brewers are the
Boogy-man.  Or by turning people off by being a beer snob.
  No offense taken, hope that I haven't given any.

Ray Estrella
Cottage Grove,  MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ********

8 brews available, 3 in the secondary, 2 in the primary, none like Bud.


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:38:48 -0900
From: Fred and Sue Nolke <fnolkepp at corecom.net>
Subject: Airlocks & Blow Off Tubes

I suspect that one of the reasons a piece of saran wrap and a rubber
band work so well in place of an airlock is due in part to the fact that
I have had no blow off to deal with since switching to a six gallon
carboy for primary.  The gallon of head space has done the trick.

One other place to replace the airlock is on the ehrlenmyer flask for
yeast propagation... aluminum foil has worked flawlessly and allows
beneficial agitation.

Anyone know of any soaks that allow beerstone to be rinsed out of  the
carboy?

Fred Nolke  -  Anchorage, Alaska


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:31:57 -0600 (CST)
From: mwmccaw at ix.netcom.com
Subject: CO2 volumes

Here's one for the collective to ponder:
Do volumes of CO2 dissolved in a beer
represent volumes at STP (0 deg C and
1000 milibars of pressure), or do they
represent volumes at equilibrium pressure?
It would make a heck of a difference in the
mass of CO2 dissolved.
Anyone know the answer?
Thanks in advance,
Mike McCaw
A long way due West of Jeff Renner in Seattle


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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:05:13 -0500
From: Ray Kruse <kruse2 at flash.net>
Subject: Valley Mill Gap Measurement

Kyle Druey writes that he uses wire sizes to measure his Valley Mill
roller gap.  Not a bad idea, but what about using a spark plug feeler
gauge.  You can measure the gap exactly, and don't need to interpret any
tables.

Ray Kruse
Glen Burnie, PRMd
rkruse at  bigfoot.com

"Those are my principles!  If you don't like them, I have others."

Groucho Marx


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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:55:20 -0500
From: "R.Lewis" <brew at homebrewbeer.com>
Subject: Brew Contests

Can anybody let me know of any brew contests in the near
or not so near future in the New York and New England region.
I'd appreciate an e-mail with information,or you can send info
to: Hudson River Brew Club,413 River st. Troy,N.Y. 12180 or call
1-888-499-BEER.  We have quite a few people looking to enter some
real good brews,but my e-mails to a few places have gone unanswered
and havn't recieved any info.
Thanks and Happy Holidays
Randy
       Randy Lewis
"If you can Boil,You can brew"
 http://www.homebrewbeer.com
Hudson River Homebrewbeer Supplies


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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:30:01 EST
From: DGofus <DGofus at aol.com>
Subject: Hempen Ale

Has anyone tasted the new brew called Hempen Ale? I was over at a non
hombrewing friends house and he offered me one. Not bad. Tasty, seems a
bit"spicy", could this be from the hemp seeds or from hops(what hops?). Also,
if one partakes in this brew and happens to have to take a drug test for
employment would this foul up an otherwise clear test? Also I am looking for a
recipe that duplicates some of the Canadian beers (Labatts Blue). I understand
that they are pilsners but need some help and guidance.
TIA Private E-mail OK

Dgofus at aol.com
Bob Fesmire
The Madman Brewery
Pottstown, PA

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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:19:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Steve <JOHNSONS at uansv5.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Subject: Triple Bock

In HBD #2589, Scott Moore talks about Sam Adams Triple Bock as being 
"sickenly sweet, no hop balance, and undercarbonated."  I agree that when you
taste this for the first time, it comes off as being something very far
removed from any malt beverage any of us would choose to drink, let alone
brew!  However, like many strong ales and barleywines, I suspect that this
beverage may be better with some age on it, and probably benefits greatly
from some cellaring.  For those of us in the Southeast, the Southern Draft
Brew News had an excellent article by their editor, Sara Doersam, in the most
recent issue (Vol. 5/No. 2; Dec. '97/Jan.'98) about this topic.  As the line
under the headline states, "Certain strong beers are ideally suited to 
saving for  months - or years - to come.  She included a nice list along with
the article and among these were:  Thomas Hardy's Ale, Traquair House Ale,
Old Foghorn Barley Wine by Anchor, and....Sam Adams Triple Bock, to name a
few.  Some of these may be best after as many as 3 to 5 years after they 
are stored properly.  Some tips that were listed:  Realize that laying
down a beer is like playing craps...there is no guanrantee that each
beer will be a winner, so immprove your chances by stacking the odds in
your favor.  Best bets are beers that are high in alcohol, high in hops,
smoked, or a combination; cellar beers in a dark, cool place with temps
from 50-65 F with minimal fluctuation or disruption; buy your beer from
a reputable beer merchant to ensure that it's in good condition when
you get it; taste your beers periodically, and if you suspect any may
be getting worse instead of better, drink them as soon as possible!
Of course, all of this takes some real patience and extra space, 
something that many of us in this hobby are lacking on both counts! ;)

Steve Johnson
Music City Brewers
Nashville, TN....somewhere south of Jeff Renner

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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:31:58 -0500
From: MacRae Kevin J <kmacrae at UF2269P01.PeachtreeCityGA.NCR.COM>
Subject: Roller Wear...

>>That is the reason we offer a gear drive option to actively
>>drive the second roller for the heavy user.  Roller wear is
>>subtle and long before total failure, the efficency and
>>throughput slowly drop off.

I'm about 6'2" 205 - 215lbs. Does this classify me as a "Heavy Brewer"?


Where can I find the new line of "Roller Wear"?  It's not at Sears,
Home Depot or any of the Big and Tall Men Shops nearby.  

I do agree with the point of efficency and throughput dropping off, 
if only slightly.    We can't remain teenagers forever.   But I know of 
folks  in their 60's and 70's who haven't yet experienced Total Failure.


Kevin MacRae
Fluffhead 
Peachtree City, GA (just south of the 1996 Summer Olympic Games)
USA
Planet Earth

On tap: Bavarian Lager & Irish Ale
Fermenting: 10 gal Chocolate Porter.

"Wake up, Have a Homebrew, Don't Worry"  -myself


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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:06:33 -0600
From: Randy Lee <rjlee at imation.com>
Subject: Anheuser-Busch: Brewer Perspective

John Sullivan wrote (amongst other things):
>> My opinion is that A-B does a great job for 
its stockholders and makes the finest American Lagers in America.  
Competitive market practices are constantly under scrutiny and subject
to 
judgement under our legal system.  Conspiracy theories anyone?  The real 
problem here is that we just prefer not to drink their beer.<<

I think that you miss the mark slightly. Yes there are strong opinions
contained in this digest about the "goodness" of A-B beer. For the
record I would like to point out that A-B does a tremendous job of
production (from a manufacturing point of view) of their product. It is
terribly difficult to brew this style of beer across the country to the
*same* standards year after year. Let there be no mistake in that; they
do a great job at it. As for best beer in their class, I would like to
point out that there are better beers IMO in that class from several
regionals (like Huber).

What we (craft brewers) object to is tactics that are border line legal
and plain illegal that A-B and their distributors do: 

point: The whole 100% mind share thing is an issue of anti-trust. I
think that it would be a fine point of law to determine otherwise; it
certainly is in spirit (and design).

point: Slotting is illegal but goes on. So does free (or below cost)
stuff to bar owners (illegal also). 

Lots of shady things like that *can* be done by the big boys that the
little guys can't do because of budget. If left unchecked in the courts,
the little brewer (yea, even the regional) will have no place to market
or distribution channels to get to market their beer. The consumer will
*not be allowed to* have choice.

It isn't that A-B can afford neon and I can't. I can cope with that.
Well I'll grumble about it anyway. It's that I can't get the time of day
from an A-B distributor or that they just dropped in a nearly no cost
tap system to some bar and that endears them to a tap slot that I can't
get.

This is one of those instances where the "free market" people are full
of it. The free market only works when there *is* a free market and the
practices of late of A-B are absolutely anti free market. Their only way
to compete against the craft industry is to take the industrial
revolution baron approach and squash competition, not based on consumer
anything, but based on tactic.

This fine distinction is what earns them my single digit vote. Not that
they sell a style that I don't like. Not that they own so much of the
market. It's that they like to play bully and throw their weight around
a lot. Never could stand people like that even if they are filthy rich
like Augie.

Randy Lee
Viking Brewing Company
Dallas, Wi.

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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 10:22:54 EST
From: Pat Lohmann <pat at ale.whoi.edu>
Subject: Re: Maris Otter problems?

content-type:text/plain;charset=us-ascii
mime-version:1.0

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:17:07 EST, SClaus4688 <SClaus4688 at aol.com> wrote:

"The suggestion that Marris-Otter can cause stuck sparges is once again popping
up in HBD posts.  I thought I'd provide a data point in defense of this
excellent malt.  A couple years ago, through very happy coincidence, I acquired
about 300 pounds of Marris-Otter from Beeston Malting Company for next to
nothing.  I used it exclusively for about a year in both single and multiple
temperature infusion mashes.  My mash/lauter tun has a perforated SS false
bottom and I usually do a 167f mash out.  I NEVER had a stuck sparge with it or
even a slow sparge."

I've never had a stuck or slow sparge with Maris Otter malt either.  I crush
with a MaltMill, use a RIMS with a perforated SS false bottom, mash ~30# of malt
at ~151F, and usually mash out at 168F. 

*But* there is something very different about the Maris Otter from Crisp
Maltings.  During mash in it "balls up" much more than any other malt I've
ever used.  Could whatever causes this result in sparging problems with certain
mash/lauter systems?

Pat Lohmann
Woods Hole MA

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