---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Exploding bottles (Jennifer and Kevin Wenger)
  A-B Continued ("George, Marshall E.")
  Organic corn meal and flakes cost (Jeff Renner)
  re: Hop flavor and aroma (Charles Burns)
  How to Use Gap Spacing / MM Pricing Strategy / West Coast Football (Kyle Druey)
  Devil Mountain 5 malt ale (DGofus)
  clean your pump (Jeff Renner)
  RFI (Jim Nasiatka)
  RE: Hempen Ale (haafbrau1)
  Stupid Question time! (NLC-EX)" <ezeller at nlc.com>
  Re: mash time/overnight mashes (Steve Alexander)
  Re:Quadrupel/Belgian beer trip report (Rosalba e Massimo Faraggi)
  fruit punch (kathy)
  Keggin' Fridge / Rochefort Yeast (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  Keggin' Fridge / Rochefort Yeast (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  Renewed Fermentation (Vernon R Land)
  Homebrew Megabrew (KennyEddy)
  Brix to Specific Gravity ("J.W. Schnaidt")
  Help to spend money ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  CO2 Volumes (Tom_Williams)
  CFC over hop utilization ("Houseman, David L")
  Nitrogen/CO2 ("David R. Burley")
  Re: brewing challenge, or Spotted Cow Clone (Jeff Renner)
  Hugh  Baird Malt ("Eric Schoville")



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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:29:03 +0100
From: Jennifer and Kevin Wenger <kev at post8.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: Exploding bottles

No longer lurking... Rejected once, I try again...

Several folks ponder the relationship of bottle filling to explosions,
volcanoes, etc...

Henrys Law tells us that there is a constant relationship between the
concentration of a dissolved gas and the gas's partial pressure in the
headspace above the liquid.

So, the amount of unfermented sugar controls the ultimate amount of CO2 in
solution, and thereby the pressure in the headspace - _Regardless of The
Headspace Volume_.  If you have a relatively large volume it will reach the
same pressure as a small volume.

(Of course, some of the CO2 is lost out of the solution in attaining this
equilibrium, i.e. you could not pressurize a 20000 gallon tank with a
teaspoon of beer. But, for the volumes we are talking about the beer could
be considered a huge reservoir of CO2 relative to the small headspace)

>> Hang on a minute there. Please could some engineers etc jump in here
>> any time and verify this. What I am about to say lacks a bit of the
>> scientific stuff so please falme away!
>
<SNIP>
>If you had excess fermentables and NO headspace, the pressure has
>nowhere to go. KABLAM! as they say on that weird Nickelodeon show.
>With adequate headspace, the gas in the headspace will compress
>"cushioning" the force from the bottle walls. With inadequate
>headspace, the pressure has nowhere to go but through the bottle
>walls.

I really disagree on this.  Despite the "cushioning", the pressure on the
bottle will be the same.  But who really fills their bottles all the way to
the top, anyway?

>> I am led to believe that it is a combination of EXCESS head space of
>> AIR and too much fermentable matter in the solution (beer) which
>> will usually lead to exploding bottles. 
>
>Drop the headspace comment and you're dead on.

Agreed, but elimination of AIR could be a key statement- since it is the
CO2 partial pressure, which will be added to whatever air pressure is in
the headspace.  In other words, if you purge your headspace with CO2, you
will ultimately reach a lower total pressure.

>
>> For instance, if anyone is completely stupid enough to try and fill
>>  an empty  corny keg with compressed anything in gas form they will
>> literally blow themselves up grenade style. 
>
>Depends on the pressure. Most kegs are rated for a minimum of 180
>psig. Most are quite a bit higher (For instance, mine are rated at
>320 psig). I've never seen a brew generate more than 50 psig at
>cellar temperatures in my brewery, and that seems reasonable. I
>think what you were looking for was filling with compressed gas in
>LIQUID form. There, you're right, but it's pretty tough to do. That
>or "straight-gut" from the CO2 tank to the cornie. But that, again,
>is pretty tough to do. No-one is likely to blow themselves up by
>having excess fermentables in their kegged beer.

This explosion idea does make some sense because a compressed gas will want
to expand in volume, thus doing a large amount of WORK on the surroundings
(= you and your friends).

BTW I think that this can explain peoples' _perception_ of whether a beer
is overcarbonated or not depending on the headspace.  If the headspace
volume is quite large, a large amount of gas is expanding when you open the
bottle, thus creating a large "whoosh"(turbulence) which disturbes the gas/
liquid interface causing release of CO2 from the liquid, thus a gusher.  If
it is too small, your liquid is close to the top and there is little room
for foam.  Thus, we have the tried and true 1"-1.5" optimum.

<SNIP>
>And I am an engineer. Hell, I even play one on the television (Well, 
>at least until I "fix" it so much I have to buy a new one...)

(me too, but I stay away from TV's)

god nytaar til alle i HBD! (happy new year)
 
- -------------------------------------------------------
Kevin S. Wenger (on a temporary brewing hiatus)
Kalundborg, Denmark
(about 7 time zones east of the apparent center of the
homebrew universe)

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:25:49 -0600
From: "George, Marshall E." <MGeorge at bridge.com>
Subject: A-B Continued

In HBD 2593, Dave Burley wrote:

>I'd like to have a buck for every time someone says to me after
tasting my beers ( including my lagers):

>"I don't like beer but this is GOOD!"

I have to definitely agree with this posting.  It seems that the friends
that I associate with all like my beer.  In fact, they are the ones that
usually ask if I've any chilled when they come over - I rarely have to
OFFER IT.  So why would Mr. Sullivan post that most of American's like
the corn and rice brew?  I don't know, maybe he's a stockholder in A-B.

I really take issue with the most American's thing though.  When I lived
in Oregon for 2 years, with the exception of my dad who's in his 50's
practically EVERYONE that I knew drank something micro related.  My
wife, who's a midwest native, even was converted after all I kept
bringing home was local beer.  If my memory serves me right, A-B bought
a stake in Widmer brewing of Portland, OR.  Why?  Because Widmer's
Hefeweizen was beating out A-B products when on draft in Oregon  (I
contributed to that!)  So...I really disagree that people really would
rather have the bland beer over the good stuff.

Along the same lines,. Samuel Mize wrote:

>If the "Oregon Originals" are not contracted to Oregon brewers, the
name seems misleading.  On the other hand, the last I read, the
Oregon craft brewing trade organization had pulled out of the lawsuit.
They were still mad at Koch, but they said that A-B was using it as a
marketing tool, and hurting them also (rough paraphrase from memory).

I can't vouch for the exact location of the brewing of the Oregon
Original's beers (I like the IPA and Raspberry Wheat), I can say that
it's very likely that they are brewed in Oregon.  The folks at Henry
Weinhard's (right in downtown Portland, OR on West Burnside St.) do some
of Sam Adams contract brewing for them.  So, from that, it would make
sense that the Oregon Originals line could be actually made their also.
Doesn't really matter to me though.  I still like the beer.

For a couple of interesting articles on A-B's lovely tactics, check out
these from respected beer writer Fred Eckardt and an A-B brewer's
response:

If you want some other interesting reading about A-B tactics, here's a
couple of other URL's to check out:

http://www.allaboutbeer.com/columns/fred4.html
http://www.allaboutbeer.com/columns/abletter.html

Hoping that everyone had a good Christmas (or Festivus!).  I did partake
in an A-B Michelob Spice Ale (2) yesterday.

Marshall George
Edwardsville, IL - across the Mississippi from the big brewer known as
A-B

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:03:47 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Organic corn meal and flakes cost

George_De_Piro_at_WAN700 at berlex.com wrote:

>     For what it's worth, if you are inclined to use corn in a beer, I'd
>     recommend using organic stuff, or at least reading the label
>     carefully.

But make sure it's degermed, not whole corn meal.  The organic stuff we get
here is whole meal, which makes great corn muffins, but contains far too
much oil for brewing (although Jack Schmidling uses whole cracked corn
without complaining).

>     This way, I
>     get to do a cereal cooking step, which is almost like decocting.  What
>     fun!

I second that.  I'm able to buy a very yellow corn meal at a local bulk
food store (The Fireside Store, for you locals who want to know) that is
much coarser and yellower than the Quaker stuff in a carton, although not
as coarse as grits.  They and the distributor are both closed today, so I
can't tell you what brand it is.  Mashed with 30% malt by weight and then
boiled for 45 minutes (then added to the main mash), this makes a flavor
contribution that is really nice.

>     Why is flaked maize so damn expensive to homebrewers, anyway?  It
>     costs more than imported Pilsner and Munich malt!

A data point - the wholesale price for 25 lb. bags of Briess flaked maize
just dropped nearly 50% here, and now cost 82% as much as German Pils malt,
so maybe there's hope.  And 50 lb. bags of 6-row dropped by nearly 20% to
56% of what German malt costs.  This is due in part, at least, to reduced
shipping costs due to the wholesaler buying full semi loads of grain.
Allowing fair markup for retailers, this still means you can brew 5 gallons
of Classic American Pilsner for under $4.00 for the grain (7 lbs. 6-row,
1.5 lbs. flaked maize) if you buy full bags.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 08:09 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re: Hop flavor and aroma

Rob Moed asks for specific recommendations on how to achieve hop flavor and 
aroma in HBD 2593:

I have played around with First Wort Hopping (FWH) and post boil steeping.

The FWH was in a pilsner and used strickly imported Saaz for bitter, flavor 
and aroma. The bittering hops went right into the kettle as the first 
runnings went in. Flavor hops at 30 minutes from end of 90 minute boil, 
aroma 10 minutes from end of boil. It had the cleanest bitter and flavor of 
any beer I've ever made. Doing it again, exactly the same way tomorrow. 
There was virtually no hop aroma in this beer. It was lagered for 2 full 
months at 35F before it was ready though.

I use the post boil steep now to achieve maximum hop flavoring. Toss in the 
hops, immediately turn off the heat, let them steep for 10 minutes - mucho 
flavor.

For aroma I nearly always resort to dry hopping. This also adds some hop 
flavor, but not the nice clean flavor that comes from FWH. It seems that if 
I leave the dry hops on the beer for more than a week, they tend to get a 
little grassy, but that may be due to stale hops. If I know I have fresh 
hops, I'll leave them in the beer for 10-14 days. All my dry hopping is with 
whole hops, no hop bag.

One recommendation that I will make for sure. Buy your hops now for the 
entire next year of brewing (if possible). And buy them from a reputable 
dealer that you know treats the hops appropriately. This way you can store 
them correctly and not have to rely on the retailer. Many retailers just 
don't take care of them well. The '97 crop is only recently on the market 
(last couple of months) so buy them fresh, store them cold, dry and oxy 
purged if possible.


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:55:44 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <kdldmd at lightspeed.net>
Subject: How to Use Gap Spacing / MM Pricing Strategy / West Coast Football

HBD Collective:

Regarging what to do with mill roller spacing Jack Schmidling writes:

>I am curious to know what you will do with those numbers when you
>get them.  

Well, I am certainly not as smart as Jack, and I definetily would never 
know how to build a roller mill, but I have an idea or two on what I 
would do if I knew the actual gap of my mill.

I used to buy my malt from the homebrew shop and have them crush it.  I 
repeatedly had stuck mash problems with my RIMS, and suspected too fine a 
crush as the primary culprit (there were others that I had posted 
earlier).  I then bought an adjustable mill and crushed the grain much 
coarser, and have since then had no stuck mash problems with my RIMS.  I 
learned that the homebrew shop where I was purchasing my grain used a 
*fixed* roller spacing, and that the gap spacing was 0.045".

>Do you know of a recommended roller spacing for the common types of malt 
>we use?

I can recommend what works for me when doing a RIMS mash.  I use the two 
pass crush first explained here in the HBD by Dave Burley.  The first 
pass is done with a gap spacing of about 0.08".  The 12 gauge solid 
copper wire works nicely to set this gap.  The gap for the second pass is 
0.055" to 0.065" and the 14 gauge wire is used to set this gap.  This 
technique maintains the integrity of the husks while cracking out most of 
the malt. This produces an excellent pourous filter bed for the RIMS 
brewer, and alleviated my stuck mashes.  I did not see a drop off in 
extraction using this technique, as you might expect, but rather continue 
to consistenly achieve extraction rates of 28-29 pts.  Of course, the 
standard disclaimer applies, YMMV.  

>People use what works best for them and knowing the number is of
>far less value than knowing the position on your adjustment knob.

I guess I was just under the assumption that if I posted the actual gap 
spacing info others in this forum might benefit from it.  IMHO, knowing 
the actual gap measurements is critical data, and is useful info for our 
fellow HBD'ers.  If you do infusion mashes with a pot on a stove then gap 
spacing is probably "page down" material for you here.  But it is 
certainly relevant for current, aspiring, and potential RIMS users.

>We build these things by the thousands and have found the best QC
>on a finished mill is how it feels when a piece of plastic of about
>.050" is pushed through the rollers.  If they both turn easily, it
>is a keeper.  If it slips through without turning the rollers, it
>is considered a reject.. likewise if it won't go through.

I posted similar info from a private email I received from Valley Brewing 
regarding their mill.  Looks like the MM and the VM both have 
similar variable gap spacing tolerances built into their production.  
When I originally posted this about the VM I hope Valley Brewing didn't 
think I was putting down their product.  For the record,  I am extremely 
satisfied with their adjustable gap mill, and would recommend the 
purchase of it to anyone, NABBB (no affiliation, blah, blah, blah - need 
to add this acronym to the HBD list).  

When I went shopping for adjustable mills it came down to the VM and the 
MM (although the Brewer's Resource mill looked very good also).  Like 
most homebrewers, I can pinch pennies with the best of them, and chose 
the VM because it was about $50 - $75 cheaper than the adjustable MM.  
Now I find out that if JS (can't remember which HBD he recently 
posted this) wants to he could sell direct and undercut Listerman (this 
would be less than $75).  Why don't you do this (duh, fat profit 
margins)?  More of us would then purchase your product. Just think, I 
could have been a MM owner right now if you had adopted this pricing 
stategy and you could be getting all this free advertising in the HBD.  
Instead, I purchased Valley Brewing's exceptional adjustable roller mill 
product and am singing the praises of the Valley Mill!

HBDers: Don't forget to tune into the Rose Bowl, pour a homebrew, and 
watch a fine example of west coast football demonstrated by the 
Washington State Cougars.  It sure if fun to see no backs line up behind 
the QB and watch 5 receivers go out into the pattern.  Ryan Leaf is the 
best college QB in the land (IMO).  The Cougs may lose, but Michigan's "3 
yards and a cloud of dust" Woody/Bo style offense is boring as hell to 
watch (well, not if you have enough homebrew)!

Malty Christmas and Hoppy New Year (thanks for the line Rob).

Kyle Druey
brewing in Bakersfield, CA

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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:16:22 EST
From: DGofus <DGofus at aol.com>
Subject: Devil Mountain 5 malt ale

I recently tried Devil Mountain 5 malt ale. This was a very good brew. I would
like to try to duplicate it (Extract if possible). It has a complex flavor and
a smoothness that was enjoyable.
private e-mail ok

Bob Fesmire
Pottstown, PA
Dgofus at aol.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:47:04 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: clean your pump

Brewers

I have a magnetic coupled pump that I bought from picoBrewing Systems.  I
don't know the brand but I imagine it's typical.  It needs to be primed by
lowering it beneath the level of the supply liquid.  Recently, as I realize
in retrospect, it had become a little harder to get a flow going, or to
keep it going.  This happened gradually enough that with everything else
that demands my attention during brewing, I really didn't pay that much
attention to it.  When I recirculated my last brew for chilling, however,
it wouldn't pump at all.  When I looked, I could see that the cooling fins
weren't even turning.  So I took the pump apart and was appalled to see
quite a lot of brown crud on the impeller and shaft, which caused enough
friction to keep the impeller from turning.  It appeared to be beer stone
and organic matter.  I scraped and brushed the thick stuff off and finished
the brew successfully, then disassembled it again and soaked all the parts
in Five Star's PBW.  I was amazed at how much came off in the soak, and I
finished cleaning by brushing with a brass brush.

I've always flushed my pump with clear water at the end of each brew, then
recirculated 50ppm iodophor for 10 or 20 minutes, and thought that this
would keep it clean.  Boy, was I wrong.  I will add a CIP (clean in place)
recirculation of PBW as SOP in the future (enough acronyums there for ya?),
and inspect regularly.

By the way, some of you really astute readers may remember that I had a
phenolic lager the brew before last, my first infected brew in many years,
and may wonder, as I did with apprehension, since I pumped cold wort, if
the pump had harbored the infection.  However, this brew (a cream ale)
turned out fine, so I think the lager yeast, from a microbrewery, was the
culprit.

The moral is to keep your pumps clean.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:12:02 -0800
From: Jim Nasiatka <Jwylde at sirius.com>
Subject: RFI

Hey all!

Time to de-lurk for a bit...
Earlier this year (like May/June-ish), somebody posted the location of a 
website that dealt with the trade/sale of surplus industrial items like 
stainless tanks and such, I think it was called the "California Trade 
Association" or something like that.  I'd appreciate it if somebody
who has the URL for that site could please send it to me.

Also, if there's anybody who knows of a source for used dairy equipment
here in Northern Ca (bay area) I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks in advance!

Jim Nasiatka
Pacific Urban Brewery, SF CA


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:26:13 -0500
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: RE: Hempen Ale

Hempen Ale will not ruin a perfectly good otherwise infringement of your
privacy.  Since, as you are aware, it is made with only hemp seeds, there
is no THC.  To have anything else in the brew, even stems, you would have
trace amounts amounts of THC,  a defunct brewery, and it's brewers,
owners, and even it's bottle cappers in jail for possesion, possession
with intent to distribute, etc....   Even the bottle washers would get
busted for paraphernalia!   So relax and enjoy.  Usual disclaimers.  I
hope this doesn't rouse the marijuana beer thread  :^) !  By the way, has
anyone put hops in their (beer) bong?  What were the results?
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:19:10 -0800
From: "Zeller, Eric (NLC-EX)" <ezeller at nlc.com>
Subject: Stupid Question time!



No doubt this has already been shot down, but I'm wearing my asbestos
suit and ready for anything.

Has anyone thouught of using an old style coffee percolator to sparge
grains. Looks to me like a fairly reasonable RIMS system, though it
might be a little too hot (does it have to heat it to 212 in order to
push the water up the tube?) It wouldn't be good for big batches, but
I'm thinking of us small fries who only do small batches, maybe willing
to pay less for something that takes a little longer (like doing two
seperate sparges to add up to a 5 gallon batch)

However, I'm postive you would either need to buy one new, or find some
way to scrub coffee taste out of it, Once you brew coffee in one of
those, it's ruined for anything else, including heating water for tea.
(I hate coffee, And I really hate it when I can taste it in my tea.)

As of this time I am doing partial extract, partial grains (mostly kits
that I buy from my local dealer), but am looking for a way to step up to
all grain cheaply.


If not for the coffe percolator, I was thinking of using an old ceramic
water cooler that we bought when we used to get bottled water. Just
stuff some fake steel wool in the drain spout. It'l hold about a gallon.

And just to throw my 2 copper slugs into the plastic/glass fray, I am an
all plastic type. 6 gallon pail with lid for primary (hole drilled in
top to hold stopper and plastic airlock, never have a problem with foam.
secondary is a 5 gallon Alhambra type bottle. I sanitize both by filling
with 5-6 gallons of water and 1 ounce of iodophor. All racking tubes
also go in at the same time. let sit for about an hour and air dry. So
far no infections (knock on ... let's see there has to be some wood
around here somewhere, oh well, on formica)



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:34:07 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: mash time/overnight mashes

bob farrell asks ...

>In "The BrewMaster's Bible by Stephen Snyder (page 25) the author states
>"it is recommended that the mash not exceed 120 minutes unless absolutely
>necessary to avoid extracting harsh tannins from the grain husks."
>
>However in Zymurgy's "The Great Grain Issue" (1995, Vol. 18, No. 4) there
>is an article on pages 66-67 "Mashing and Saving Time" where the author
>recommends mashing overnight.
 ...
>I thought harsh tannin extraction was a problem caused by mash temperature,
>is time a factor, too?

Time, temperature and the amount of water used in the mash all have an effect on
phenolic extraction from grist. The two major disadvantages of overnight mashing
IMO are probable excessive extraction of phenolics, and the very high likelihood
of getting a good thermophilic lactic acid bacterial 'sour mash' flavor in the
resulting beer.  I fully understand the motivation to save time and effort in
homebrewing - but I think that nearly all of us are seriously committed to
making high quality beer too.  For this reason overnight mashing is a
methodology that appeals to HBers who are either truly time constrained, or who
are too lazy to try to make great beer, and too cheap to buy it.

For the seriously time constrained brewer who cannot otherwise brew without
overnight mashing, I'd advise mashing with a relatively modest water:grist ratio
(like ~1qt/lb), and chilling the mash with an immersion chiller for the night.
This is more like overnight storage than overnight mashing, but it should help
reduce the phenolic and lactic problems somewhat.

Steve Alexander

p.s. Apologies for all the line-wraps & typos in my recent posts. I'm trying to
correct this.  As I move to a Bill_Gates_cenctric model of computing I must
learn to make do without a lot of familiar and useful tools.


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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:27:42 -0800
From: Rosalba e Massimo Faraggi <rosamax at split.it>
Subject: Re:Quadrupel/Belgian beer trip report

Hi

La Trappe Quadrupel (or Quadruple) is the strongest beer (10% abv,
1084-88), produced by the Schaapskoi Trappist Brewery which is
Netherlands' only Trappist brewery. La Trappe is the brand name. This
August I was in Amsterdam and it was very difficult to find it because -
I think - it's a winter beer, but the last night just by chance I could
find a full shelf of Quadruple 1996 in a supermarket! :^)
It is a very good beer, IMHO just a little step below Chimay Blue,
Rochefort 10 and Westvleteren. It is a bit drier than these, and could
resemble a barleywine a bit.
I tried to culture the yeast but with no success, and I have no more
bottles :^((
But I still have one Westvleteren 12 !  :^)

BTW, after my beer trip to Belgium and the Netherlands this year, I
couldn't resist to write my little beer diary with some beer places of
interest. If anyone is interested, I could post here or email privately,
or you can also have a look at my beer site in the miscellaneous page if
you prefer.

Cheers, again Happy Holidays to everyone

Massimo Faraggi - Genova - Italy
834 Km S of the Schaapskoi Trappist Brewery
http://www.split.it/users/rosamax/     my beer page


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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:54:07 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: fruit punch

If you want a non-alcoholic punch or a fruit punch base for new years, I
guarantee the following:

3 12oz cans of frozen orange juice concentrate
1 12oz can of frozen pineapple juice concentrate (or 48 oz can)
1 12 oz can of frozen grapefruit juice concentrate (or 48 oz can)
2 cups lemon juice
2 cups sugar

add 180 oz of water to make juice normal strength (adjusted if you used
48oz cans).  Store this chilled or make up an ice ring of frozen punch
concentrate (with some marischino cherries optional) to float on the
punch bowl's liquid surface.

When serving, add up to 3  2 L containers of Seven-Up, Squirt, Sprite
type of chilled pop.  A winner (my wife's family recipe)

Best brewing in 1998.    jim booth, lansing, mi



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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:04:31 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Keggin' Fridge / Rochefort Yeast


Looking for help from all those with multiple kegs on tap.  I would like to
have a couple of beers on tap at a time.  I make mostly ales, but I will be
making some lagers as well.  Most will be "session" type beers.  No
dopplebock or belgian strong ales or anything like that on tap.  My
question has to do with the CO2 system.  Am I better off to invest the cash
into a series of regulators that allow me to hold different kegs (and
beers, of course) at different pressures, or can I get away with just using
a line splitter to run multiple kegs at one pressure?  I have only one CO2
tank to use and won't be buying another any time soon.  Any help or
opinions would be appreciated.

Anybody have an optimal fermentation temperature for the Wyeast 1762
Belgian Abbey II (Rochefort) yeast?  I have read the Wyeast recommendations
but wondered if anyone had any practical experience with this yeast.  TIA

Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI



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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:05:15 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Keggin' Fridge / Rochefort Yeast


Looking for help from all those with multiple kegs on tap.  I would like to
have a couple of beers on tap at a time.  I make mostly ales, but I will be
making some lagers as well.  Most will be "session" type beers.  No
dopplebock or belgian strong ales or anything like that on tap.  My
question has to do with the CO2 system.  Am I better off to invest the cash
into a series of regulators that allow me to hold different kegs (and
beers, of course) at different pressures, or can I get away with just using
a line splitter to run multiple kegs at one pressure?  I have only one CO2
tank to use and won't be buying another any time soon.  Any help or
opinions would be appreciated.

Anybody have an optimal fermentation temperature for the Wyeast 1762
Belgian Abbey II (Rochefort) yeast?  I have read the Wyeast recommendations
but wondered if anyone had any practical experience with this yeast.  TIA

Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI



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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:51:12 -0500
From: vland1 at juno.com (Vernon R Land)
Subject: Renewed Fermentation

Greetings All:  Recently, I added approx. 1 1/2 cups of sterilized wort
to a 5 gallon batch of all grain beer that had been fermenting for 3
days.  I did this as an experiment to stimulate yeast activity, my final
gravities are seldom under 1.020.  At the time I added the additional
wort, the fermentation appeared to be over and the gravity was 1.020.  
Within 2 hours, bubbles appeared and haven't stopped, it has been 5 days.
 Does anyone else use this technique to get the yeast up and going,
should this be necessary?  I stir the primary with great vigor to
introduce oxygen before I pitch the yeast.   Also, does anyone know how
many pts./lb/gal. you should get from using cornstarch in the mash?  The
Miller book doesn't list cornstarch in that table.  

Vern



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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:19:26 EST
From: KennyEddy <KennyEddy at aol.com>
Subject: Homebrew Megabrew

Heiner Lieth challenges us to formulate a mass-appeal homebrew.

I think the Classic American Pilsner (CAP) style is probably the best
compromise between the adjunct-diluted megabrews commonly found in American
beer coolers and the rich, robust homebrew found in our carboys.

This was the one brew I've made that I can say EVERYONE who tried liked well
enough to finish the glass!  That includes those who prefer their Bud Lite on
ice (seriously) and others who don't drink much beer to begin with.  The
similarities to commercial American megabrew certainly have a lot to do with
it, but the departures in terms of improved fullness and bigger hoppiness call
into question the presumed desire of American mainstream drinkers for
blandness and lightness.  I enjoyed the beer immensely as did other
homebrewers and beer snobs who sampled it.  It's probably as close as we
homebrewers can get to a universally-appealing creation.

That said, I'll also say I've had success with Oktoberfest-style beers, as far
as being accepted by a wide audience.  I'd have to give OFest only a distant
second though.

*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy

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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:29:18 -0600
From: "J.W. Schnaidt" <tuba at gwtc.net>
Subject: Brix to Specific Gravity

Does anyone out there have a formula for converting the numbers from a Brix
hydrometer to specific gravity points? I'd like something exact, not an
estimation, if possible. Thanks.


######################################################################
Jim Schnaidt
tuba at gwtc.net

"Taxation without representation is tyranny.
 Taxation with representation ain't so hot either."
######################################################################



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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:31:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Help to spend money

For the request on how to spend money, I just got a package deal for 
christmas (from my wife, who has bought ALL of my brewing equipment, I 
love christmas :)

It had a 170k fing burner with stand (the kind where the pot can't slip
off because of a retaining ring the pots sit into), a small pot with
straining basket (for deep frying) and a 6 1/2 gal pot, all for a $100.00. 

All I can say is watch your pot, my first brew boiled over and put out 
the burner, when I steped away for a minute to get some hops (I had it 
cracked open about a quarter of the way open!).

I am now way over powered but very very happy (cream ale, now tucked away 
in the fermenter and bubbling away very nicely:).

I was pleased with the chilling in this pot too, it is a very tall pot 
and my chiller sits right on top (hooked over the side with the in/out) 
and took only about 15 minutes to chill to 70 deg.

_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:00:22 -0500
From: Tom_Williams at cabot-corp.com
Subject: CO2 Volumes


Mike McCaw inquires about CO2 volumes...

I recall a definition that I got from a post by Dave Draper (when he lived
considerably further away from Jeff Renner): 1 volume of CO2 means 1 liter
of CO2 dissolved in 1 liter of beer.  I assume this definition is based on
sample conditions, not standard conditions.  Note that the saturation
level, or the maximum volumes of CO2 that beer can contain at atmospheric
pressure varies inversely with temperature.

Dave's post was about a method for determining the weight of priming sugar
appropriate for a particular batch, and is in the HBD archives for 1 August
1995.  I have been using his method (thanks Dave!) since then and my
carbonation problems have been dramatically reduced.


Tom Williams
Dunwoody, Georgia




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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:47:41 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: CFC over hop utilization

A note was posted on JudgeNet and a thread begun concerning the over
hopping of beers when using a counter flow chiller (CFC).  I thought
that this might be a topic of interest to the HBD subscribers as well.
The point has been made by several brewers who have and utilized CFCs to
cool their wort.  If you consider the time to whirlpool and wait to
begin knockout then the time to drain the kettle through the CFC it
could easily be 15-30 minutes for 5 gallons, longer for longer
brewlengths.  It's been reported that beers cooled with the CFCs and
utilizing finishing hop additions are more bitter than predicted based
on calculations.   It seems that the added time in very hot, although
not boiling wort, is increasing the hop utilization of these late
addition hops and increasing the bitterness of the beer.  It may also be
true that the aroma and flavor characteristics are below expectations as
well, although this hasn't been brought up.   

Has anyone else experienced this condition?  Is there a known correction
factor?  How do others deal with it?  If I want the hopping right on, do
I (we) go back to immersion cooling?  

Dave Houseman
Southeastern PA

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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:07:37 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Nitrogen/CO2

Brewsters:

Jack Schmidling and Ron Le Borde have been discussing proper
carbonation with the mixed gas. I believe the explanations are
partially incorrect or at least mis-leading to me. There are two
applications for using gas mixtures of nitrogen and CO2 in beer =

delivery.  One to delivery it faster and the other to deliver a
lasting head.

1) Nitrogen/CO2 is used to provide enough pressure to a keg on a
long run ( say twenty to fifty feet or so) from keg to tap without gettin=
g
it overcarbonated as Jack suggests. In this case, the partial pressure
of the CO2 in the gas over the beer is the same as it is in a properly
carbonated beer (say 8-15 lbs psi partial pressure), but the total
pressure( say 30-50 psi) in a keg is higher by the amount of nitrogen
in the gas mixture. The 8-15 psi pp of CO2 keeps the beer properly
carbonated and the higher total pressure allows the beer to be =

driven at a normal rate even though the beer suffers a pressure
drop as it goes through the long hose. Choice of the gas mixture
ratio will be based on the actual location and the distance between
the keg and tap.  The shorter the distance, the higher the ratio of CO2
to nitrogen.   As he also says, in this application the nitrogen does
not dissolve in the beer and therefore cannot get into the foam. =


2) In the sparklers and other devices, however, nitrogen/CO2 is
mixed with properly carbonated beer such that the nitrogen gets
into the *foam* ( not the beer). This is known as "breakthrough"  =

Being less soluble in the beer, unable to pass through the bubble
wall and therefore trapped in the foam bubble, the nitrogen does
support the foam for a lot longer than if the foam were pure CO2.
In the breakthough process,  the CO2 carbonation is largely purged
from the body of the beer. =

- -----------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:47:05 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: brewing challenge, or Spotted Cow Clone

Heiner Lieth <lieth at telis.org> challenges us to make a beer for under $10/5
gallons that would please the millions.  By coincidence, I was just going
to post the results of my latest brew, which I made to please the masses at
our Christmas Eve party, which it did.

I began by being inspired by a small taste I had of New Glarus' Spotted Cow
Ale, which they call a farmhouse ale, but I guess would be a cream ale (see
my post of several months ago).  The label says it has malt, flaked barley
and corn.  I guessed it to be hopped in the upper teens.  It had that
subtle corn sweetness and aroma and flavor - I recognized it before I
tasted it or read the label.

This clone turned out close to what I remember Spotted Cow to be (I hope
for a direct taste comparison).  It is easy drinking, has some familiar
corn flavor, is complex, and hoppy enough to be interesting but not enough
to put off tender taste buds.  It has hop flavor from FWH and some aroma.
The low carbonation and cellar temperature add to its easy drinking.  It is
not a low OG beer at 1.045.  As a matter of fact, it could be diluted 20%
without any problem, making it more of a session beer.  Come to the January
9 AABG meeting at my house (the homebrewing center of the universe) and
have it straight from the tap!

Note, this recipe uses estimated retail costs (since much of my ingredients
are from bulk club buys) and includes propane, which may not have been
Heiner's intention.  Also, it is a very fussy mash schedule because I like
to be fussy and use corn meal in a cereal mash.  I'm sure that flaked
maize, which would add only a little to the cost, would work just fine in a
straight 155F infusion mash.  Fermented as a lager, this would make a fine
Bavarian-American lager of pre-pro style.  And, of course, as you've often
read here from me, Your Father's Mustache or other CAP/Pre-Pro lagers
certainly please the millions, at least those who've tried mine.

So let's cut the shuck and jive:
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Spotted Dog Cream Ale

1/4 bbl.(7.75 gal)  at  1.045 in the keg

Grain:
6-3/4 lbs Briess 6-row		$2.70
2     lbs Durst Vienna		$1.30
3/8   lbs DWC Caravien 22L crys $0.50
2     lbs coarse corn meal	$0.88 (bulk food store)
1     lbs flaked barley		$0.79 (health food store)

Hops:
0.5 oz homegrown Cascade (FWH)		$0.25 if bought
0.8 oz Cluster (7.0%, boil 60 min)	$0.50
0.5 oz EKG Goldings (5.2%, 15 min)	$0.50
0.4 oz homegrown Cascade (0 min)	$0.25 if bought

Yeast
Strathcona sample for testing	$3.50 if bought

Water salts:
1 tsp. CaCl2			$0.10?

Propane
probably not included
in ground rules			$2.50?

Total				$13.77 for 7.75 gallons
Cost for *5 gallons*		$ 8.88


Procedure (see note above re unnecessary fussiness; this is my standard
cereal mash procedure for CAP, etc.)

Treat 16 gal well water by boiling and decanting off CaCO3 ppt., add 1 tsp
CaCl2 to 8 gal treated water for mash.

Cereal mash - Mash in 1.5 lb 6-row, 2 lbs corn meal, 1 lb. flaked barley to
130F (thick mash) for protein rest for barley, hold 30 min, add boiling
water to 153F, hold 30 minutes, bring to boil for 30 minutes, add to main
mash.

Main mash - Mash in to 104F at start of cereal mash.  Hold until cereal
mash is boiling, then raise to 122F for 15 minutes, then to 135F for 15
minutes, then add boiling cereal mash to raise to 140F (may need to cool
cereal mash), hold 30 minutes, raise to 158, hold for 30 minutes, mash off
at 170F.  Recirc and sparge as usual.  Collect enough wort (10 gal. in my
case) to yield 8 gallons clear, cold wort in primary, allowing 1 to 1-1/2
quarts trubby wort to remain in boiler.  Use first wort hopping.

Ferment 5 days at 62F, skimming dirty foam days 2&3.  On 4th day skim top
crop of yeast,  On 5th day, rack to Sankey, seal, chill to 40F over several
days to age, on day 15 rack to new Sankey, adjust carbonation and
temperature.  Serve  at  55F with low carbonation (I use 8psi and shoot it out
of the tap for a good head, which reduces the carbonation).


 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: 27 Dec 97 13:22:30 -0800
From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Hugh  Baird Malt

Brewers,

I use Hugh Baird Pale Ale Malt almost exclusively and
have never run into a stuck sparge yet.  I even stir
the mash during lautering to about 3" above my manifold.
Maybe this helps!  I also mash out at 165 F.

Eric Schoville in Flower Mound, TX

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---