---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Plastic RIMS (LaBorde, Ronald)
  10g. Gott RMS / MM vs RMS /  Zapaps (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
  bottle labels (chris bersted)
  Dangerous Dave's Dunkel - Update (Charles Burns)
  Re: Second all-grain brew and newbie questions (Spencer W Thomas)
  Food Grade Colors... (Some Guy)
  Diastatic Enzymes - How much? ("Gregg Soh")
  Black & Tan Spoon... (Some Guy)
  Mixmasher, God, Humor and Thanks (Jack Schmidling)
  Solutions for carboy fragging ("Steven W. Smith")
  alcoholism (John Wilkinson)
  RE: Second all-grain brew and newbie questions (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Malt Sugar Profiles (Mallett,Mark)
  Courtesy (Samuel Mize)
  big questions (Robert Zukosky)
  Lactic versus phosporic acid ("Raymond C. Steinhart")
  10 Gallons of fun! ("Michael Kowalczyk")
  Siebel ("Rob Moline")
  Re: MIXMASHER vs RIMS (Scott Murman)
  Same Recipes:  Infusion versus step mashing ("Olin J. Schultz")
  Trub Decomposition ("Olin J. Schultz")
  Re: allergies to beer (georg)
  220V Bottle Labels! (Brad McMahon)
  They KillKenny! (Brad McMahon)
  Re:food grade plastics ("John Lifer, jr")


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hbd.org
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.) 

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to homebrew-request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
**ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!! 
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to brewery at realbeer.com

Homebrew Digest Information on the Web: http://hbd.org

Requests for back issues will be ignored. Back issues are available via:

  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
        ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer  

  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:56:05 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Plastic RIMS

From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
>>>> ................From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde,
Ronald)..............
I use an Igloo 10 gallon round cooler for my mash tun and would like to
mount a dial thermometer into the side.
Has anyone any advise on how to do this?<<<<

>>Don't do it.. A fixed thermometer in a mash tun is most like to give
you
some very deceptive information.. I find it essential to have a long
stemed
thermometer to move around while changing to a new temp rest. When I get
similar readings all over I know the mash temp is stable. A single data
point wont do it. be real careful here!!!  <<

Ok, I failed to mention that I use the RIMS system and re-circulate the
mash.  I am currently inserting a small dial thermometer by hand into
the mash and read the temp.  It is my hope and understanding that the
re-circulation tends to even the temperatures throughout the mash.

One question I have about re-circulation is: Can I re-circulate while
stirring the mash?  I am using for a false bottom, a somewhat unknown SS
screen, one piece, that fits very well into the bottom of the Igloo
cooler.  It is made by the same company that sells Iodaphor.  The price
was right, and it's strong enough to stand on.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------------
From: "Lee, Ken" <KLee at resdata.com>
>>Subject: Converting 10 Gallon Gott to a RIMS

I have been using my 10 gallon Gott cooler as an infusion mash/lauter
tun, and am interested in learning how I can convert it to a RIMS
system.  I have seen a picture of one, but never seem explicit
instructions on how to do this.  If any one has done this or knows a web
page/article that describes how to do this in detail (diagrams, parts
list, etc.), would you please let me know!  I am not mechanically
inclined, I just really like to tinker with this stuff!<<

Well Ken, check with your wife first, then if you can get a couple of
pumps, you can build a very nice RIMS system for not too much money and
difficulty.

Mine uses an Igloo for the mash tun.
Uses a 15 gal. HDPE plastic container for the HLT
Uses another 15 gal HDPE plastic container for the boiler.
I heat both the HLT, and the boiler with 240volt 4500 watt electric
heater elements.
I built a power controller for the elements so that I can turn a knob
and smoothly
vary the temperature from off to full power.  (using 555 timer IC
circuits and SS relays)
I have all three on the same level, on a 18 inch high cart on wheels - a
simple 
chrome wire cart I ordered from a catalog.  Looks good - works good.

I re-circulate through a 25 foot coil of soft copper tubing thrown into
the HLT, 
no mounting, really just thrown in.  I controll all temps manually.
The use of two pumps allows me to have everything on the same level.
No ladders for brewing,  Just painting.  Propane only when I do a
decoction, or grill some peppers.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:55:56 -0600
From: "Wills, Frederick J (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
Subject: 10g. Gott RMS / MM vs RMS /  Zapaps 

"Lee, Ken" <KLee at resdata.com> asks about converting a 10 gallon Gott
cooler to a RIMS system.   There is much good information on the web
about various peoples' RIMS setups.  I suggest that you do a search on
"RIMS, brew & mash".

Since you already have some kind of false bottom for your cooler
mash/lauter tun you are all set there.  In reality, what we all have
come to consider a RIMS system is actually 2 subsystems combined.

The first subsystem and the more important one IMO, is the wort
recirculator.  All that you will need additional to your mash/lauter tun
is a wort pump, flow regulating device (ie ball valve) and an on-off
switch.  One could do true hot water infusions while pumping and get
similar results as those from a "full blown" RMS.  Come to think of it
this would be a real R*I*MS, right?

The advantages of recirculating the wort are:  temperature uniformity
throughout the grist, maximum uniform enzyme mixing, minimum particulate
material in brew kettle via filtration.  

I asked for some advice a while back about a means for regulating the
flow (ie electrically via motor speed control or physically with ball
valve).  The nearly unanimous answer was (assuming the use of a
magnetically coupled pump) skip the speed control and use a ball valve.
I am doing this and the motor runs very cool during the entire mash.

The second functional subsystem is the wort heater and temperature
regulator.  Typically you will see similar designs using electric hot
water heater elements plumbed into the wort's flow path during
recirculation.  This probably because it is very convenient way to add
heat to the mash regardless of the container used as a tun.  The
temperature controller could be just an on/off switch and attendant
carbon based switch actuator (ie you have to turn it on and off) but
after having done a mash this way when my electronic regulator was on
the fritz I can tell you it is a PITA.  There are several varieties of
controller out there and I again encourage you to search the web for
ideas.  Mine is of the homemade design a 'la Rodney Morris' schematic.


The advantages of the heater and temperature controller are just that:
precise temperature control, automatic maintenance of rest temps,
ability to raise temps (step mash) without diluting the mash from
optimum thickness for enzyme efficiency.

I think that the optimum configuration for functional RMS brewing is
having both subsystems automatic temperature regulation.  I don't
personally don't think that being able to preprogram the entire mash
schedule via a computer interface is either necessary or cost effective,
but YMMV.

**********************
WRT the MashMixer as proposed and presented by Jack S, while it seems to
be a useful approach to semi-automate mash *stirring*, IMO it does not
seem to be as effective a solution as an RMS (Recirculating Mash System
 - Infusion or otherwise) .

The MM system has no inherent means of: 1) maintaining rest temps, 2)
boosting temps without either infusing or mashing on the stovetop or 3)
filtering the wort as is normal in the full blown RMS system described
above.  

Others have also noted the possibility of HSA due to air being sucked
into the mash which is certainly not an issue with an RMS.  

***********************

Adding to the discussion on how to make a better Zapap.  

My first lauter tun was a modified Zapap model.  I encourage anyone
thinking about all-grain brewing to experiment with one of these since
you are uncertain about your future as an all-grainer and this design
can be made for pennies.

Go to the donut shop and scrounge 2 identical buckets of at least 5
gallon capacity.  Never pay for buckets as there are bazillions of them
being sent to landfills daily.  

Drill as many of the smallest size holes possible in the bottom of one
of the buckets.
NET - WARNING - this has been known to drive people (alcoholic or not)
to drink, ...but if you are trying to brew beer with this thing then you
already know that!  Never-mind.

Next, cut the sides of the just drilled bucket (all the way around)
about 2-3 inches up from the bottom.  By cutting the bottom of the
bucket off you will form a nifty false bottom which can be jammed nearly
all the way into the other, still whole, bucket.  This will cut down the
amount of foundation water needed.  More importantly this will prevent
the possibility of over filling the inner bucket and having the mash
ooze out from between the two buckets onto the floor.  It will also
prevent sucking air through that crack should you later retro-fit your
lautertun with a RMS pump.

The last improvement I made (similar to the soldering iron technique)
was to flame buff the "false bottom" with a propane torch to melt any
burrs left from drilling.  Deburring makes it a heck of a lot easier to
clean-up post mash.  Just be very light handed with the heat so as not
to make a molten mess of the plastic since you just spend many tedious
minutes drilling it out.  Also, need I say it? Be careful with the
torch.  Don't burn down your house.  Yady- yady ya.

I guess in summary:  there is more than one way to shuck a feline,  ...
or a barley granule.

Cheers,
Fred Wills
So. NH


Return to table of contents


Date:         Tue, 06 Jan 98 09:59:01 CST
From: chris bersted <CTB967F at VMA.SMSU.EDU>
Subject:      bottle labels


Ken Schwartz, in respoonse to Dave Thomson's inquiry as to bottle labels
suggested he used Print Shop  and commercial xeroxing to produce labels
that don't smear.  I have found that while bubble jet color output does
normally smear, a quick spray with an acryilic spray designed to protect
photos makes labels much less likely to smear.  In my case, I often use
photos scanned in on a cheap scanner, and then use columns in Wordperfect
to proudce typically six labels per page.  By using photos, one can
personalize your beer.  Examples: picture of my daughter and son-in-law
called "celebration porter" served at their wedding reception; picture of
my wife soaking her feet in creek after 16 mile roundtrip hike to upper
meadow of Slough Creek in Yellowstone called "Tired Dogs' Imperial Stout",
etc.  I concur with using a child's glue stick to attach labels, since
sanitation heated drying in dishwasher typically causes labels to drop to
bottom of dishwasher (do not use rinse agent)

Chris Bersted
ctb967f at vma.smsu.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 98 08:16 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Dangerous Dave's Dunkel - Update

The "House Flavor" otherwise known as carmelized then carbonized second 
decoction has turned our Barrel 'o Dunkel into a Rauch-Dunkel. This is a 
call for discussion on an addition to the AHA Style Guidelines;-) Similar to 
Steinbier in that we can produce this beer only through a specialized 
process (soon to be patented as "Dave's Carbonized Decoction, or DCD") as 
opposed to a particular grist/hop bill.

This Dunkel (see previous hbd's for "Barrel 'o Dunkel" recipe) now has a 
distinctly smokey flavor. While it requires us to stretch the style 
definition of a dunkel, it really is quite pleasant. My 12-16 oz of Wyeast 
2308 reduced my 6 gallons from 1.060 to 1.013 in only 5 days (56F, I know, 
too high). Racked and tasted it on Saturday and was surprised by the smoky 
malty flavor.

Charley (making smoked beer without smoked malt) in N.Cal

PS - I just thought the digest needed some frivolity for a change, its 
getting awfully serious with non-brewing related stuff lately.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 11:07:32 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Second all-grain brew and newbie questions 

You can drop the next batch right onto the yeast from this batch.  But
I wouldn't do it more than once.  There is stuff in there other than
yeast which could affect the flavor of your beer if allowed to
accumulate.

The "best" way to harvest yeast for *ale* brewing is top-cropping.
This requires that you use an "open" fermenter -- one which you can
get a large spoon into, at least.  You don't have to ferment with the
top off, it just has to be removable.

My procedure for top-cropping (copied wholesale from Jeff Renner, of
course):

When the foam starts to mount in the fermenter, I skim the "crud"
about twice a day.  After a couple of days of this, or less, you
should have a nice, clean looking head.  After two or three days, the
head turn yeast-colored (tannish) and compact a bit.  At this point,
you can start harvesting yeast.  

Take a sanitized (preferably sterilized, but we do what we can)
wide-mouth jar ("Mason" jar in U.S. canning terminology) of at least a
pint capacity and a (similarly) sanitized metal spoon.  Skim off the
"thick" parts of the head, and pour/drop them into the jar.  Put the
lid back on the jar and store in a cool place or the fridge.  Do this
a couple of times per day until fermentation has stopped or you've got
as much yeast as you want (at least 4 ounces of yeast "paste" in the
bottom of the jar is good).  Stick it in the fridge until you're ready
to brew the next batch.  It'll easily keep a couple of weeks.

At brew time, you can "wake up" the yeast by pouring off any liquid
from the top, adding a bit of starter wort, and swirling or shaking
the jar to resuspend the yeast.  See

http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~spencer/images/starter-wow.jpg

for the result.

Four ounces (250ml) of thick yeast paste is plenty to start a 5 gallon
batch.  It should be visibly fermenting within a couple of hours and
really roaring along within 8 hours.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:19:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Food Grade Colors...


Greetings, Beerlings! Tak me to your lager...

While we're discussing food grade colors, I have a BLACK HDPE bucket that 
originally contained Durkee taco seasoning. Color has no bearing.

(Though, Dave is right: when in doubt, go for white. At least that way 
you can SEE most crud crustaceons...)

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brewing Page              http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 08:20:00 PST
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: Diastatic Enzymes - How much?

I've got a question about the enzymatic power of the malts that we use. 
There's lots that have been said about how 6-row has more enzymatic 
power than 2-row and how wheat malt is less diastatic than barley malt. 
But how much can we actually expect the malt we use to convert other 
non-enzymatic constituents? Charlie P. says 6-row can convert 30-40% 
extra over. Others say make the malt up to 50% of the total amount of 
grain, while others say adjuncts should not make up more than 45%. This 
can be a little hazy as the non-enzymatic components will have very 
different 'amounts' that will be converted to sugars and dextrin. So 
even though one might try to follow these ratios and percentages, one 
might ultimately ask whether this should be by weight of total grist or 
by points of extract(or something similar) to aid in recipe designing. 
Does anyone have a "rule-of-thumb" ratio that he/she uses to provide the 
necessary amount of diastatic malt? 

While I'm into that, how much can 2-row malt convert? Is it right to 
assume wheat malt should only be used to convert itself?

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:22:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Black & Tan Spoon...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

> Does anyone know where I can mail order the fancy little spoon that pubs
> use to layer beers (black and tans, half and half, etc.).  My wife is
> tired of finding bent spoons in the kitchen. 

Actually, you only need a "fancy" spoon if you want to spend the money. I
use the GRAVY spoon included with most flatware sets available in such
exotic places as your local K-Mart. Does a most admirable job (in fact, I
photographed a pair of pints poured last night to put on my web page...
Details to follow.)

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brewing Page              http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:57:21 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Mixmasher, God, Humor and Thanks

From: rust1d at usa.net
Subject: Re: MIXMASHER  vs RIMS

" Now I just need to find a fan blade. Or perhaps a industrial paint
stirrer would fit the bill?

I recall paying about $10 for a half dozen different sized fan blades
from American Science Center.  I think the one I ended up using was
$3.  On the other hand, a quick look through the McMaster Carr
catalog in the "industrial mixer" section will give you pause.  Not
knowing any better when I first got into this, I paid $40 for a 3"
one.  As it is aluminum, it doesn't even make a good paper weight.

"FYI, American Science & Surplus can be found at:
http://www.sciplus.com/cgi-bin/basket/884013165.75/catindex.html

From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: alcohol limitation programs

"I remember the presentations, they suggested most of the countries
outside of the USA emphasized this technique of learning controlling
behaviors and only in the USA was abstinance the prevailing mode of
treatment.

I suspect that you will also find that only in the US is the emphasis
on: "I can't do this without god's help".  Not only is this totally
destructive to the development of ANY self-control but as a born-again
Atheist, it creates an impossible choice.  It also makes the meetings
about as useful as a revival meeting and again sets up the impossible
choice.....  Go and lose control or stay home and work it out alone.


From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Mixmasher

"I still need to stir in the grain,  (with RIMS)...

Brings up another intersting point.  With the Mixmasher running in
the brewing water (at whatever temp one chooses to start) one simply
pours the grain in slowly as the Mixmasher does the perfect dough-in.

Ironically, this has become the most "tedious" part left in my
process.  How easy it is to forget how really tedious it was when I
also had to stir it.

 .....................

Some more thoughts on HSA.  I have always been troubled by some facts
that seem to be in conflict. We have to oxygenate the wort because the
boiling drives off the oxygen. We have the basic fact that the hotter a
liquid is, the less oxygen it can hold.  As we heat the liquid, oxygen
escapes to the atmosphere.

However, if we stir it while heating, it will somehow absorb so much
oxygen that it could ruin our beer.

 .................

Finally, a hearty thanks to all for the kind words of support, if not
for me personally, for the far more important and hard to hang on to,
trophy of free speech.

I think we have all come a long way in the years over which this group
has evolved.

Wonder how many remember that (un-named) fellow who actually started
his own list, the sole charter of which was to make it "JS exclusive".
I tried subscribing but was "automagically" rejected.  Pray tell, is
he still around?  Sort of sad that as a Brewer of the Year or some
such trophy, he had a lot to offer the group.

If you want to read what I think is possibly the funniest posting ever
on the Digest, go to:

 http://hbd.org and search for "Godzilla" 1992.

Don't know what happened to Chris Campanelli but his prediction at the
end has pretty much come true aside from the fact that instead of
playing bridge, our wives compare notes on their wierd husbands.

Chris, BTW, was unique in that I don't recall a single serious posting
he ever contributed but we all miss his humor.

js


- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:49:08 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: Solutions for carboy fragging

  Given that everyone isn't blessed with the "G.I. Joe Kung-Fu Grip" so useful 
for transporting glass carboys, I had a thought... One could apply the 
"fifth force" (duct tape) to a carboy to help prevent it from disintegrating 
if dropped.  Another better (and more expensive) option might be to paint it 
with "Sno-Kote", the latex/fiberglass goo that one applies to the roof for 
insulation and hole-plugging - available at the Home Despot and other fine 
stores.
 Me, I like stainless 'cause when you drop it the dogs and cats all jump three
feet in the air :-)

Steven W. Smith, Systems Programmer. Glendale Community College. Glendale Az.
syssws at gc.maricopa.edu
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." Jack Handy

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 98 12:55:34 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: alcoholism

I didn't want to comment on this thread but gave in.  I will try to be brief.
I agree with Jack Schmidling in that it is the alcoholic's (whatever that is)
responsibility to limit or eliminate alcohol to avoid problems.  It is not
Jack's problem, nor should it be ours, to tell others how to live.  I doubt
seriously that anyone with a drinking problem is going to see Jack's opinion
of regulating alcohol intake and go off on a life ruining bender.  If
someone knows they cannot handle alcohol it is up to them to take care of
the problem, not mine, yours, or Jack's.  If someone like Jack finds they can
drink in moderation but another finds they can't, they each have their own
solutions.  I think calling alcoholism a disease is a distortion.  I find
definitions of what an alcoholic is very hard to pin down.  By some reckoning
anyone drinking more than two drinks a day is an alcoholic.  By someone
else's it is the guy sleeping in the park with an empty wine bottle in his
hand.  I am sure that the defenders of the zero tolerance theory would say
that if someone can drink in moderation they are not an alcoholic in the first
place.  In that case, Jack is not in "denial" as has been suggested.

Enough.  Let's get back to brewing and away from social work.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:23:05 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Second all-grain brew and newbie questions

>From: John Hessling <hessling at inlink.com>
>I have brewed few batches so far and welcome all comments to my
posting.

>Can I just dump my next batch right onto the yeast in the
primary or should I extract the yeast

You could,  and since this is your second all grain batch,  sure, go
ahead and do this if you would like.  After you gain experience with a
few more brews,  you may be more concerned with any hops and goop mixed
in with the yeast.

You also could, instead, take a bit of the yeast from the primary and
grow it up to the pitching volume you would like to use for the next
brew.  This will lessen the trub and flavor alterations that may ensue
from the leftover hops and etc. from the first fermentation.

>Does it matter that I use the same yeast that I used for the bock?  Or
>should I get some more yeast started for my next brew?  (This seems
like
>a silly question, but I am unsure.)

If your bock was OG way up there, say, 1.070 or so,  probably you would
need a fresh yeast.  I have read that Dopplebocks, etc., wear out a
yeast.  I really do not understand this,  I have really eaten a lot at
partys and I wasn't worn out.!!!!
Since you had a relatively normal OG, I would go ahead and reuse the
yeast.

>What are the problems
>with Aluminum pots?  I have not had any problems that I can iscern with
>them, yet.  I clean them real good after every batch, but I don't try
to
>remove the oxidation that has occurred from the exposure to wort and
>water, though.

Oh yeah, don't scrubb 'em.  Then you have new exposed aluminum.  You
have done well not to remove the oxidation.  There is not enough
evidence to prove or disprove the use of aluminum in brewing.  The
present concensus is that it is OK.

>It took me about 6 hours on Saturday and maybe
>2 hours on Sunday (a good bit of cleanup.)

How many football games did you watch?  :>)))

Ron

rlabor at lsumc.edu - Ronald La Borde - Metairie, LA


Return to table of contents


Date: 06 Jan 98 17:18:55 GMT
From: mallem60 at wales.bbc.co.uk (Mallett,Mark)
Subject: Malt Sugar Profiles

Sorry to re-post this item, but our e-mail system crashed for a few
days, and I don't know if there were replies;

On the web site of a malt extract producer was the sugar profile
for one of their products as listed below:
Fructose		2%
Glucose		11%
Sucrose		1.5%
Maltose		48%
Maltotriose	13%
higher sugars	25%
Does anyone know what the profile of other extracts are?
Also how do mashed grain runnings compare to this?  

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:24:19 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Courtesy

Greetings to all.

In HBD 2602 I stated that courtesy "has been lacking on both sides of
this [alcoholism] debate."  This was inaccurate; the recent discourtesy
toward Jack Schmidling has been almost entirely in messages not directly
part of the alcoholism thread.  My apologies.
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 18:47:59 -0500
From: Robert Zukosky <rzuk at IX.netcom.com>
Subject: big questions

I am experimenting with a Rodney Morris RSMS. Assume a 6.5 gal extract
collection.
I started 10 lb. grain in 4 gal h2o. Programmed steps of 104, 141, 155 F
with constant circulation at 3 gpm. At the 141 step the mash appeared
stuck. After several bad words
and a moment of enlightenment I realized that grain takes on h2o and I
only had 2 gal
available. Pump was too much. Throttle back helped correct the problem
but left me with other problems.
Question 1: What would be a good water to grain ratio?
Question 2: Why not go with 8.5 gal ( 2 gal for grain retention) for a
recirculating no
                   sparge mash?
Question 3: Has anyone added a digital readout for setpoint on the
Morris circuit.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 20:07:08 -0600
From: "Raymond C. Steinhart" <rnr at popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Lactic versus phosporic acid

What would be better for pH adjustment of sparge water?
Lactic or Phosphoric Acid?
Where can I get Phosphoric Acid?
I am running in the mid 9's after boiling my water and beleive I am in
the 75 to 150 ppm of total hardness.

Thanks 
Ray Steinhart
Brewers of South Suburbia


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:52:16 -0800
From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: 10 Gallons of fun!

I'm doing my first 10 gallon batch on Monday for free.  Well almost.  I
reused parts that I had from 2 years of brewing and for cheap have come up
with a way to do 10 gallons in place of 5.  Here's how I plan to do it.

Mash tun
I mash in a 33 qt copper kettle.  I can comfortably mash 14 lb with plenty of
headspace.  I plan on milling 20 lb and doughing in as much as possible
(assuming a thick mash).  I'm starting with 17 lb and will slowly add malt
and water until its up to the top.  If I get 18 lb.  I'll be happy.

Lauter Tun
I use an insulated 5 gallon bucket and a phils phloating bottom as a lauter
tun.  Replace this with my 34 qt. HLT which is a rectangular cooler.  I tried
unsuccessfully to use the easymasher as a hop strainer in my kettle.  Didn't
work, so I had an easymasher laying around.  Installed the easymasher in my
HLT.

Boiling Kettle (s)
I was real paranoid a few months back when I made a beer that tasted like
rust going into the fermenter.  After examining my canning kettle I noticed
gobs of rust.  I sanded and used porcelain paint to touch up the spots.  I
was still leery and bought a new canning kettle.  It turned out that the
porcelain paint worked so now I have 2 kettles!  By the way, the rust beer
turned out fine.  It may have been the hops I was tasting (at 2 am. tastes
are off a little)

Hot liquor tank.
None.  I'm planning on using one of my boiling kettles to have the first 8
gallons of sparge water.  Then when the second canning kettle is freed up
heat the rest of the sparge liquor.

Procedure
Mash as much grain as I can in the first kettle while heating sparge liquor
in the second kettle.  Transfer the grain to the lauter tun and immediately
start heating the remaining sparge liquor in the freed up kettle.  Collect as
much runnings in my bottling bucket.  Collect the remaining runnings in my
other bottling bucket (the one I retired after 2 years of faithful bottling
service).  Transfer carefully with no aeration 1/2 and 1/2 from the bottling
buckets to the kettles.  My kettles go over 2 burners and just barely both
fit on the stove.   I'm using different hops in each kettle for variety, but
am too lazy this time to use different yeasts.  Maybe next time.  I've never
used dry yeast.... hmmm maybe this time to use the nottingham brand people
talk about for one of the brews.... 

Yield
Assuming 17 lb and my brewery I can get a 1.052 wort.  People say that you
get better extraction with larger batches so maybe I'll get 1.056 with 17 lb,
or to really push the envelope 1.062 with 20 lb.  Yield might be lower
because  I can't really apply my constant %87 efficiency to this lauter tun
since I'm changing to the easymasher.  May be some of that dreaded
"channeling" I hear of will occur...  maybe not.  We'll see. 

Extra time
I'm thinking it will add 2 to 3 hours to my brewing.  Chilling is the biggest
culprit.  I have to do it serially.  Also, I usually collect 1 gallon of
runnings and start the boil right away.  Since I'm collecting all of the wort
first, then starting the boil I'm adding about 45 minutes.  Still 10 hours
for 10 gallons is still better than 7 hours for 5....

Open questions
I'm not sure about the chilling.  I can keep one boiling while chilling the
other, but it takes me 45 minutes from the start of the chill to pitching
yeast.  I may turn off the burners at the same time, but leave one sit while
I chill the other one.  We'll see.

I don't really have any questions, just thought I'd share a "brainstorm" I
had after reading some posts on the HBD.  Al K talks about not doing a
secondary.  I tried this technique and it works fine, so I don't need 4
carboys only 2.  Al was taking about how he mixes his runnings for one strong
and one lighter beer, so it got me to thinking about how I can apply these
techniques to my system.

Any suggestions or critiquing would be welcomed. 

Experimenting is fun!   In 2 years and 30 batches I may have used the same
setup maybe 3 times.  God I live this sport!

 - Mike from Chicago.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 22:41:04 PST
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: Siebel

Greetings,

	"The More Time I Spend At Siebel,
The More I Learn About Beer!"

Rob Moline
Brewer At Large
brewer at ames.net
Ames, Iowa.

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 23:35:26 -0800
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: MIXMASHER vs RIMS 


I wrote:

> <mashing in an insulateed cooler> you can have as complicated a
> step program as you'd like.  

JS responded:

> Well, I am always willing to learn something.  Just how do you do
> that?

Come on Jack.  Let's see, we have a tub full of grain and water.  In
order to raise the temperature we can either a) heat the grain, in
which case we're performing a decoction mash or b) add heated water,
in which case we're step mashing.  The methods and calculations for
both are available from many sources, including back issues of the
HBD.

> "From one who mashes in an insulated cooler (aka Gott/Rubbermaid)
>  - doing so requires stirring....
> 
> During the entire mash?  What is the point in using an insulated
> cooler then?

No, obviously there's no need to stir during the entire mash.  I was
simply responding to your statement that said "mashing in a cooler
doesn't require stirring, and doesn't allow step mashing."  It's
obvious that you don't use one, or you'd find that both of those
statements are patently false.

And yes, I do walk away from my mash tun and watch a football game. 

SM (trying to picture how Jack goes about boiling an egg)


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 01:41:30 -0800
From: "Olin J. Schultz" <beerx3 at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Same Recipes:  Infusion versus step mashing

With all the talk about ease of mashing with a mixmasher versus rims I
would like to ask for the input of those in the collective who have done
both infusion and step mashing with the same recipe.  Recipes other than
those with undermodified pilsner malt where a step mash may be needed
for clarity.

The reason I ask is that I have used both a mixmasher(ice cream maker
motor, sanke keg shaft, stainless paddles) to perform step mashes and
have of course done infusion mashing.  I have seen rims but do not own
one myself.  I agree that for step mashing rims is great and a mixmasher
is better than stirring. But what about good old infusion?

In the battle of ease of use and simplicity Infusion pretty much waxes
the mixer and rims and step mashing in general. Does not get much
simpler than mixing the grist in and coming back 60 minutes(or whatever)
later.  So it comes down to what tastes better.  

With that said I have tried a few batches of the exact same beer with
both step and infusion mashing schedules.  I have liked the infusion
mashed beers more.  From a real, my own eyes and tastebuds
perspective(not theoretical), I liked the infusion mashed beers more. 
The head retention was better and the body was greater(better control of
the saccharification rest - one temp.) Granted I like beers with more
body.  Clarity is great.  Runoff is clear after one pint with almost no
particulate fall through.(3/32 holes on 5/32 centers false bottom in a
28 gallon s/s vessel with an underlet tube.)  This is not an exhaustive
testing by any means, just my experience.

My question is if anyone else has done similiar tests.  What has been
your results?  I think this would be really interesting.  I feel that
many people start step mashing because some book said they would get
clearer beer and better head retention.  I do realize that certain malts
require it, although I have used DWC pilsner malt in infusion mashes
with great results and no permanent hazes.  Same for Weyerman Pils. Our
club is going to do some tests, I would suggest this might be a good
experiment for any club.

Also would be interesting to know what percentage of commercial micro
breweries do step mashing compared with infusion?  

TIA,

Olin Schultz

PS  One other benefit of Infusion:  You don't lay awake at night
worrying about HSA ;)

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 01:55:27 -0800
From: "Olin J. Schultz" <beerx3 at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Trub Decomposition

The question about yeast breaking down in the fermenter got me thinking
about an old question I have about trub decomposition.  I have searched
high and low for good data on trub break down and I can't find it. 
Exactly what is taking place and over what time period.  I think this is
so key in regards to whether or not a secondary fermenter is necessary
when fermenting an ale.  Some sources will say the secondary method is
better because trub breaks down but there is never any specifics.  I
want to find out if there is any decomposition over a two week
period(past the flavor threshold.)  It is my feeling and experience that
there is none over this relatively short time period.  This is purely
based on taste tests. 

Olin Schultz

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:43:55 -0500
From: georg <thegeorg at servtech.com>
Subject: Re: allergies to beer

> Greetings beer people.  Your advice would be greatly appreciated.
> A friend recently had a strong allergic reaction to a hoppy
> Micro-brewed Pilsner.  He got hives all over his face and had a
> slight tightening sensation in his chest.  We have isolated the
> reaction to the beer consumption.  He has consumed other beer
> previously, you could say extensively, but had not had highly
> hopped pilsner before.  Since that occurrence, a few weeks ago,
> he had a much milder reaction to drinking Rolling Rock.  Anything
> similar happen to anyone else?  Any ideas on whether it was
> likely triggered by the yeast or hops?  Any opinion on whether it
> is likely a reaction to low hopped, filtered beer will pass?

Allergies are funny things. They can seem to pop up overnight. Once one
has a reaction, it takes less of an allergen to create the reaction the
second time. Which is why your friend reacted to the Rolling Rock- which
he probably could have drank before. It does sound like your friend is
now allergic to hops. Have him stay away from all beer for a month, and
then try to drink only low hopped beer in moderation. If he still has a
reaction to the beer, then he may need to avoid hops forever, as awful
as that sounds.

Someone posted a couple of weeks ago about a friend who was having
allergy problems with homebrew. If you brew, invite your allergic friend
over, and have the phone nearby to call 911- &/or have a bee sting kit
ready. Let your friend cautiously handle every ingredient you put into
your beer, and see what they have an allergic reaction to. Smoosh some
hops in your fingers and let your friend sniff then taste. When they
begin to react, immediately remove them from the brewing area, wash
their hands & yours, and call 911 if needed. If you finish the wort
boil, let them try a sample of that (all of the hop oils should be
released). If they have no allergic reactions during the process, and
they still have an allergic reaction to your homebrew, they may be
allergic to any esters that yeast strain produced, and as a homebrewer
that is much harder to control.

Another source of problems can be the cleansers and sanitizers inherent
to homebrewing to prevent infection. Some people cannot cope with
bleach, others are allergic to iodine. Rinse everything thoroughly.

I am not a doctor. I'm just somebody with multiple chemical sensitivity
and extreme allergies, and speaking from personal experience. I cannot
use bleach, idophor, citric acid, or campden tablets (I also make wine).
I accept the risk of infection as part of my brewing. 

Cheers!
georg
non ani sunt permittendi

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 21:26:45 +1000
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: 220V Bottle Labels!

I use a program by the name of Labels Unlimited 2,
but any kind of DTP will do very nicely.
Other than that KennyEddy explains the
procedure very well.
I have not tried it, but I have heard that milk
makes a very good label glue - just brush it on
with a basting brush or a paint brush.


Alan, thanks for the info, on the wonders of 
US electricity. If you have 220V in every house
then why are the power points rated at 110V?
It's annoying that I cannot buy electrical
equipment from the US, nor bring things over.

Brad



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 22:09:08 +1000
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: They KillKenny!

Gregg Soh wanted to Kill Kenny. Rather than watch
South Park, I think we better hit our brewerys to work it out.

Now, I can't get Kilkenny where I live, but I did look it up.
Roger Protz in "The Ale Trail" (ISBN 1-85882-041-3), talks
about Smithwick's of Killkenny's Draught.
He describes it as having:
"3.5 per cent alcohol with twenty-two units of bitterness. It
has a creamy, malty, estery aroma with a hint of dark fruit in
the mouth and bittersweet finish. An export version is four percent ..."
(page 179)
I also know it has a reddish colour to it.
Now, I have had Caffrey's Draught, so I will assume
it is similar in character.
Irish breweries tend to use Northdown and Target hops alot,
with Goldings and Challenger also used in smaller quantities.
Given this, I used only Northdown and Target, as I feel that
Fuggles/Goldings/Williamette may make the beer too English
in character. Also draught beers are generally not very
hoppy, so I have avoided those finishing hops, relying on
some flavour from the bittering hops.
Protz also tells us that Killkenny is served cold at 
7degC/44degF and he had to wait for it to warm up to drinkable
ale temperature! Given this cold temp for an ale, a lot of the
aroma and flavour would be lost at this temperature.
If Target and Northdown are not available try Northern Brewer,
or/and Bullion.


Now, you didn't say whether you are an all grain brewer or
an extract brewer, so I flipped a coin and decided to
work out an extract recipe. If you are an all grain brewer then
it shouldn't be hard to convert.

__MY GUESS__
So lets try this (I worked in metric but converted back to
screwed up British engineering units so that American brewers
don't have to think too hard. :-) I calculated this as a 19 litre
(5 US Gallon batch))

2kg (4.4lbs) Light Malt Syrup
500g (1lb)   British Crystal Malt (60L)
0.5 oz       Target (11% AA) (boil)
0.25 oz      Northdown (8% AA) (boil)
0.25 oz      Northdown (8% AA) (finishing)
1 tsp gypsum.
Irish or English Ale yeast.

This should have a SG of 1.038 or so, so 3.5 - 4% alcohol
would be OK. Depending on the colour of your liquid extract
the SRM should be around 15-20.
The Bitterness I calculated using Tinseth's figures
and got 25 IBU, Garetz gave me 20 IBU, so this is a
good ball park figure.

NB: I have NOT tried this recipe - it is pure conjecture
on my part. I more than welcome comments from other brewers,
and perhaps we can collectively work out a better recipe.

Brad McMahon


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:10:13 -0600
From: "John Lifer, jr" <jliferjr at misnet.com>
Subject: Re:food grade plastics

On Tuesday Fred Johnson replied to the question of
using plastics in brewing.  I had responded the previous
day to the original question and I must expand on this
a little.  Most colorants used in plastics today would
be considered 'food safe' by most standards.  There
are not too many manufacturers using heavy metals
such as cadmium in their colorants today.  Having
said that, there are a lot of reprocessors who will
use any HDPE (high density polyethylene) in their
HDPE and PP(polypropylene) in their PP products.
In most cases these repros are colored.  If the
bucket or container is clear or natural white then
you can be pretty sure that it is ok for food.  Not
completely sure, but close. If it is white, it may contain
a UV stabilizer.  This would be such as the bucket used
to hold the drywall material. I would bet that it is NOT
food safe.  It may sit outside in the sun and the UV
stabilizer was added to prevent degradation. I know
that pickle bucket are green but they use the proper
colorants.  Be safe and use a container that a food
product was shipped in or is made to hold food.  I
would hate to read that a HB'er died from poisoning.
(remote but stranger things have happened). Ask about
labeling 5g buckets to prevent drowning.
John in Mississippi


Return to table of contents

---