---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Culturing from Paulaner (Michael Rasmussen)
  Re: Decotion Mashing (Mark Weaver)
  The Draught Notice Feb 98 ("Thor")
  Clearing Wort Problem (Jim Wallace)
  Easymasher (Adam Holmes)
  RE: underletting (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Runoff Rate (Jack Schmidling)
  mashout - why? (Heiner Lieth)
  How "BIG" can you go? ("Michel J. Brown")
  All-Grain Barley Wine hop rates (Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK)
  Hop rhizomes, Why is Bigger Better-Yeast Starter? ("Raymond C. Steinhart")
  re: flat beer (Mark Weaver)
  False Bottom Question (Warning - RIMS Related) / High Gravity Efficiency (mike hoag )
  Lauter geometry and sparge rate-summary and opinion (GuyG4)
  high gravity efficiency ("Olin J. Schultz")
  homebrew cooking - copying (smurman)
  On politeness, critiqueing, etc. (Mark_Snyder)
  Lubricating Keg Posts ("John Robinson")
  Keeping Cornelius Kegs Cool at Parties? (KROONEY)
  Cheap Counter Pressure Fillers - any good? (KROONEY)
  Mashing Schedules ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  Birmingham, AL brewpubs? (dajohnson)
  Hop rates & the great Pale Ale experiment (Michael Rasmussen)
  Step mashing (Spencer W Thomas)
  Chillers, immersion vs. Counter-flow (Bill_Rehm)
  Chlorine In Brew Water (KennyEddy)
  Irish-American Red Ale recipe (Jeff Renner)
  competitions: bottles/carbonation (Stephen Ross)
  Infusion mashing outside (Danny Breidenbach)
  Tabernash  Weisse {1} Bottling strain ????? (Glyn Crossno)
  Get ready for WAR (EFOUCH)




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:18:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at barley.patch.com>
Subject: Culturing from Paulaner

A recent thread has speculated about the possibility of 
culturing yeast from bottles of Paulaner wheat beers.

One of our local brewmasters, Tony Gomes of Saxer brewing,
is German trained and worked at Paulaner.  He confirmed
that all Paulaner export products are pasturized.  So 
unless you got that bottle on a trip to Germany, you 
won't be able to culture a yeast from it.

- -- 

    Michael Rasmussen   mikeraz at patch.com
     Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity
     Better a brewer than a banker be.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:12:39 -0500
From: Mark Weaver <HeadBrewer at eci.com>
Subject: Re: Decotion Mashing

> Hopefully, you have some decent notes from your first attempt. Using
> these as the basis for planning your next batch, make adjustments to your
> decoction volumes.
>
I heartily agree with you! Nothing beats a good set of notes, including
all your hop IBU calculations (grams x % alpha acid x 1000 x extraction
rate then devided by total liters of wort). I find it easy to do the hop

calculations on paper, and staple it to my recipe profile.


> Mashing in thick is a good idea, since you _will_ be
> diluting it with infusions over the course of the mash.
>
Depends on what type of equipment you are using, and what type of beer
you are making. For a true decocted Bock, I have read (and brewed using
this procedure) that you should mash in with 1.4 quarts of water per
pound of grain, proceed to 110F for an acid rest for 30 minutes, then
122-124 F for the protein rest. The 1.4 quarts allows for evaporation
loss during boiling of the 1/3 thickest part of the mash in a seperate
vessel. If you mash in with too little water the enzymes will not
convert
all of the starches, too much water and you will extract excessive
tannins
from the husks.

> but practice, practice, practice is the most
> important advice I can give. Another important thing to keep in mind is
> that no matter how things go on brew day, you always get beer. It may not
> turn out exactly as intended, but it'll probably be pretty good, just the
> same.
>
How very true! I have brewed several decocted beers. Upon tasting it at
racking time it tastes nothing like what I was shooting for. Then, after

letting it lager in a stainless keg for two months, the beer takes on
the
flavour profile that was being sought. Let them age! You would be
suprised
what can happen.

Prost!
Mark
- --
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose
HeadBrewer at eci.com
75'02 / 72tii
"No, I don't brew heads....."
Resume http://markweaver.com2tom.com
Web Site: http://markweaver.com2tom.com/home.html

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:43:36 +0000
From: "Thor" <thor at valhallabrewing.com>
Subject: The Draught Notice Feb 98

This month's edition of the Draught Notice in now available. This
month's is even bigger than the original one with the addition of some
new columns like the History Column.. If your interested in writing an
article or have something I can use for next months article, feel free
to email me at draughtnotice at valhallabrewing.com

The newsletter is located at:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/dboard/dbnewsl/t9802a.htm

Here is a list of some of the articles that may be of general interest
to the readers of the HBD. 

Book review
A review of "The beer drinker's guide to Munich" by Larry Hawthorne. A
quick review of some of the highlights, rough table of contents, etc.
I wish I had the book last time I went to Oktoberfest.

Brew Quiz
A big hit last month, its back with a theme: Beer Styles for those
studying BJCP stuff like me. Not as tough as last months quiz but 
fun non the less. If you want to write a quiz for a future issue, 
please contact me.

San Francisco Pub Crawl by M Kiesling
The plan is in motion, the date set: Saturday Feb 28th  at  11:30am at
the Pacific Coast brewery in Oakland CA with at least 4 more 
breweries to hit with 3 more afterwards for those with the stamina. 
Very informal crawl using mass transit to get along.

The Englander Pub by Charlie Webster
Not very far from our meeting place in San Leandro, CA is a great 
little pub to quench your thirst for English ales. Charlie does a 
very nice review of the pub for those who haven't heard about it and 
are in the neighborhood.

How to mount an electric heating element into the boil kettle
A little article of how I used a bolt on water heater element to heat
my boil kettle and do so without worrying about shorts from splashing
wort. It requires a little welding but that's what the author is 
into.

Event Calendar
A new format instead of just a link to our club calendar. I tried to
show some of the events planned and those tentative coming up.
Some ofthe events include a planning meeting for a Northern 
California Homebrewers Festival and the Portland, OR, AHA 
conference. If you want to plan ahead, its definitely worth checking 
out.

Gold Rush Breweries by Ken Koupal
Our first club history column has been completed and its a great 
effort. Ken Koupal has written a well documented look at the 
breweries of California from the Gold Rush era. If your a history 
buff, grab a beer and read this story of the breweries of 
yesteryear.

Humor and Jokes by unknown Internet author
This is sort of a light hearted little joke I got from email. You 
may have already read it so let me warn you ahead of time. If you 
hear a good *Beer* joke then send it to me and I'll see if I can use 
it next month.


The Draught Notice is a publication of The Draught Board, an AHA
recognized non-profit brewing club based in San Leandro California.
The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the view of the club
members. All articles written by the Webmaster unless otherwise noted.
If you want to contributed to the newsletter please feel free to 
contact the editor. If you wish to use a portion of The Draught 
Notice in your own local publication, you are welcome to providing 
you give credit to the author and specify his club affiliation if 
any. 

Some of the articles that are shaded in the table of contents 
are private club information and not intended (and probably not of 
interest) to people not in the club.

- -----------------------------------------------------------
Thor's Stainless brewery  at  http://www.valhallabrewing.com/
AHA club The Draught Board Homebrew Club  at 
   http://www.valhallabrewing.com/dboard/index.htm 
ICQ pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7124517                 

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:59:34 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Clearing Wort Problem

Calling on the Experts again....

I have been doing all grain brews for the last year and a half.. I have
been geting very clean wort for fermentation with most styles but as of
late I have had several problem batches and they have all had 2 things in
common: they were made w/ Marris Otter Malt and have had a small amt of
dark malts (choc,black,roast)..... I have made many dark beers before and
not had this problem. 
My specific problem is that I get a very good hot break but the particles
are so small that they either pass right through into the fermenter or
combine with the hop flowers and clog things up. My only solution has been
no solution. I just let it all run into the fermenter and let it settle
out with the yeast and lose it when racking to secondary.... Will this give
me a less clean favor in the finished beer?

I have just started using the Marris Otter. It seems to work fine with Pale
 but when I add the dark grains I have a problem. I have been told that
this malt has been heavily modified by the maltster. What does this mean in
terms of Protein profile? What is the relationship between this protein and
break material? Is this perhaps why I am finding more trub in my final wort.

My water pH is ~6.4 ... 
 ...a PALE MASH settles in at about pH ~5.3-4 in the final wort ... the
break particle is quite large and gets held by the hop flowers ... VERY
CLEAR WORT 
 ...a DARK MASH drops down to pH~5.1-5.2 final wort ....very small break
particle that gets past hop flowers into fermentation or else clogs up
scubbie at end of racking tube.... VERY MUDDY WORT ... It usually settles
out in 6-12 hrs but I prefer to pitch ASAP. Therefore I have several
fermentations with lots of trub. 
 ...If the pH is my problem how do I increase it? I have tried adding CaCO3
to the mash (1-tsp/5-G) and it had no effect. Should I be changing my water
to a more neutral to alkaline condition

I have also increased my use of Irish Mosss from 1-tsp to 1-Tbsp per 5Gal
as per G/L Fix new book. could this have an effect? I rehydrate it and add
to the boil 20min before end of boil. I understand that the mechanism here
is to gather small bits of break into larger ones that will settle out.
 
Soryy for the length, but this is oneof my ongoing  problems and I would
like to see what others think...

___________________________________________
    JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
      http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:14:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Adam Holmes <adamholm at holly.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Easymasher

I got a stainless steel brew pot for Xmas (7 or 8 gallon cappacity).  I am
slowly making a transition to partial mash and eventually all grain.  I
wanted to know some people's experiences with the Easymasher, good and
bad.  Is it easy to install on a SS pot (I've read about it mostly being
used on enamel canning pots)?  Is my pot large enough for an all
grain
batch (7 gallons would put the liquid at the very brim of the pot)?  My
pot would have to function as both mash tun and the pot I boil the wort
in.  I like the idea of having the Easymasher used as a filter when
transferring from brew pot to fermenter, so it seems useful with extract
and all grain batches.  I got to hear all the pros and cons before I start
drilling holes in my nice new pot.  

Thanks in Advance,
Adam Holmes
adamholm at holly.colostate.edu

private email OK


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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:03:35 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: underletting

Kieth asks about underletting

 ...I think that with underletting
there would be no need to stir the grain, the water moving upward should
keep it moving. There would be no need to restrict the flow of the pump
at all. It should be easier to control the temperature with the water
moving faster and there should very little variation of temp in the
grain itself. A deeper grain bed should be ok. It would be very easy to
finish it with boiling water through the mash...

I am not sure if you are refering to underletting in a RIMS type mash
system.  I considered the same aspects you mention, and as of yet I
haven't been able to resolve a few fundamental problems with this.

1) How and where would your intake liquor come from, the top of the
mash?  If so, how would you separate the liquor from the grains?  This
could possibly be done by placing a bowl shaped screen into the top
surface and the inlet into the screen.

2) I wondered about the filtering and clarification of the wort.
Possibly the grain bed would still filter from the top!  Sounds crazy,
but try it.

3) I am still too busy trying to mount a dial thermometer into the
Igloo.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:38:17 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Runoff Rate

From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: runoff rate

"Darryl Richman send me private email regarding the runoff rate issue.

"He says it's documented in his book, "Bock" on pages 92-94.  He told me
the Germans recommend a flow rate of about 0.2-0.33 gal./min, per square
foot of surface area in a traditional mash tun.

"So, calculate the square footage of your surface area....

I did that for an EASYMASHER(R) and came up with 22 hours for a
12 gallon sparge.  As my actual sparge time is about 30 minutes,
I suspect we could go to war over those numbers.  On the other
hand, 10,000 homebrewers can't be wrong, so why bother?  Besides,
Germans don't know anything anyway :)

I spent the first year trying to convince the hidebound masses that
the EM works and the last 4 trying to prove that nothing works 
better.  This could be a real setback.

"I'd like to reiterate that I feel better tun designs allow for faster
runoff with little loss whereas tuns in which the runnings are taken
from a small area need you to run off at a relatively slow rate to
give the sugars a chance to diffuse from the areas of stagnant wort
into the runnings.

I won't argue with that as to some extent, it is probably true.  
However, I will say that I have seen no change in extraction or 
character since I went from a 90 min sparge to 30 minutes.

js


- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........  http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......  http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday


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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:37:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Heiner Lieth <lieth at telis.org>
Subject: mashout - why?

smurman at best.com writes in HBD#2621:
>My understanding is that a mashout to 165F is primarily to denature
>the beta-amylase enzyme so that it won't continue chewing up your
>beers body while you perform an hour long sparge.  How does it effect
>efficiency? 

I guess I don't understand this.  I thought the amylases were responsible
for converting starch to sugar. If you are truely finished converting, then
they have nothing left to do.  As I understand it, they don't mess with the
sugars that are already created, so how can they affect the body?

I havn't been doing the mashout step because it doesn't make sense to me
(and because I don't bother to check for completion of the conversion). I
figure that if I rinse out any starch molecules with the sparge, then having
capable enzyme in the brewkettle ready to convert these straglers is a good
idea.  I see no reason to have starch in my beer.

Heiner Lieth.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:51:54 -0800
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: How "BIG" can you go?

I just made my semiannual BIG bre the other day (Dominator), and was
wondering -- just how high in OG can you go before you run into problems?
So far, I've hit 1.155 and have gotten Wyeast #1388 (Belgian Strong Ale) to
ferment out to 1.040 or so every time. I feel that with proper trianing of
the yeast, it would be possible to go even bigger on the OG, but I'm unsure
as to what the upper limit is (or even if there is one). Btw, I have 6" of
krausen on the primary, and no detectable esters (yet), although whenever I
brew this beer, I usually can taste some fruity elements possibly related
to the high hopping rate (~75 IBU's) but I'm uncertain if this is the case.
So far we've discussed high altitude brewing (what flavors demarcate this
is unknown to me), and differential temperature brewing. So how "BIG" have
*you* gone? TTYAL, ILBCNU!


      Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR (aka fungus corner)}
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
              "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                         Big Man Brewing (R) 1996


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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:38:24 -0500
From: Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK at ln.utk.edu
Subject: All-Grain Barley Wine hop rates


Humbly submitted for assistance,
I brewed a 10-gallon batch of all-grain barley wine last Saturday, but I
have some concerns about the hopping rate.  I'll run through the recipe and
process.  Mashed 37#2-row,
2#crystal,1#caramunich,l#bisquit,1.5#Cara-pils,and 1# flaked for 2 hours at
155.  I sparged with 170 degree water until I collected 14 gal. of wort,
boiled it down to 11 gal. and made the following hop additions.  3 oz.
Centenial pellets(10.6%) 75 minutes, 5.5 oz. Kent Goldings plugs (6.5%)(45)
 .5 oz Williamette (45) and 1 oz. Cascade (finish).  When I ran this on the
"Cellar Homebrew Calulator" at  www.cellar-homebrew.com, it came up as well
balanced beer.  IBU's came up at 80.  This sounded pretty good to me.  The
boil went fine, and it's fermenting away, albiet with a lot of trub that I
couldn't filter out.  But on Wednesday I was reading the recent Barley Wine
article in Zymurgy and noticed much higher hop rates for 5 gallon batches!
My question is, have I woefully underhopped my labor of love?  And if so,
what can be done?  Did I get more utilization over a 10 gallon batch than I
would have with a 5?  I realize utilizations have been covered ad-naseum,
and I'm probably displaying my ignorance,  but I could really use some help
on this.  Private e-mail is fine.  Thanks in advance,
Jeff York
Knoxville, TN



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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:27:05 -0600
From: "Raymond C. Steinhart" <rnr at popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Hop rhizomes, Why is Bigger Better-Yeast Starter?

Can anyone give me suppliers of Hop rhizomes, I think now is the time to
start placing the orders.  Preferably suppliers with on line catalogue.

**********************************************************

Yeast Starters-  If sanitation is very good (1st reason for big starter,
to give yeast a head start) and oxygenation is very good (2nd reason, so
yeast can reproduce before depleting oxygen and work on sugars) what
other reason do you need a yeast starter.  And if the first two criteria
are met why still.  I have pondered this question and since sanitation
is basically the most important aspect of homebrewing, how can you mess
around with the possibility of creating an environment for bacteria as
well as yeast in a starter? I fear a greater possibility of infecting my
beer with a starter gone bad than I feel it is worth.  I use liquid
yeast (Wyeast) and sometime the pouch is barely expanded, yet I pitch it
anyway and have not had problems.  My TG's are right on target.

Ray Steinhart
B.O.S.S. Brewers of South Suburbia

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:53:32 -0500
From: Mark Weaver <HeadBrewer at eci.com>
Subject: re: flat beer

Will,

Maybe there is still some sanitizing solution left in your bottles when
you go to bottle? What do you use to sanitize your bottles and
equipment?

Prost!
Mark

> From: "William Warren"
>
>               I'm confused!                Flat Beer
>
<SNIP>
> I have a problem that I can not solve, I need your expertise. ActualI
> The main problem was the beer was flat each time. My question is why?
<SNIP>
>> The other problem has to do with the taste...  The finished product =
> seems to have a "funny" taste to it. I'm thinking that it could have =
 - --
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose
HeadBrewer at eci.com
75'02 / 72tii
"No, I don't brew heads....."
Resume http://markweaver.com2tom.com
Web Site: http://markweaver.com2tom.com/home.html



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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 15:17:32 -0800
From: mike hoag <hoagm at Cubic.COM>
Subject: False Bottom Question (Warning - RIMS Related) / High Gravity Efficiency

I am looking into replacing my slotted copper manifold in my 18 gal tun 
with a perforated stainless false bottom.  Selection within my price 
range seems to be limited to a couple of brew saavy companies (Stainless 
in Seattle, Sabco, etc.).  The stainless stock used by these companies 
seems to be limited to the most commonly available perf patterns - mostly 
1/8" dia holes.  This seems a bit large to me for use in my RIMS.  My 
question to those who use these is how long does it take to establish a 
good filter bed?  My concern revolves more around the initial recirc 
clogging my pump than anything else.  Also, I'm not concerned about the 
open area, as ~40% should be more than adequate (the bottom will be 
almost 250 sq in.)

*****************

On the recent high-gravity efficiency thread:

I recently made a couple of attempts at a 1.085 Strong Scotch Ale and 
noticed a significant drop in efficiency.  Until these attempts I 
consistantly achieved ~83% with my RIMS (based on CG malt figures in the 
BT Market Guide).  My first attempt (using British and Scottish malts) 
came in at ~72% (1.073).  This batch has a wonderful malt profile that 
reminds me a bit of Traquair House - brings a tear to the eye 8^)  - but 
just a touch too bitter in the finish.  My second try was a complete 
failure (using mostly Klages).  I'm still not sure what happened but I 
ended up with an efficiency below 60%!  I even measured the first 
runnings and was getting <1.060 - should have been closer to 1.100.  I 
suspect I didn't get full conversion (haven't been checking lately), but 
I was watching my return hose during the recirc and the mash looked 
crystal clear running through it.  The resulting beer is pretty thin and 
harsh.  I may eventually brew something to blend with it but I'm going to 
give it another couple of weeks to condition first.  Just another data 
point for the collective.

  

Thanks for listening--


Mike in Sunny San Diego (what, it's going to *rain* tomorrow?? better
			 break out the parka! - brrrr, 50 degrees! %^)

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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:30:02 EST
From: GuyG4 <GuyG4 at aol.com>
Subject: Lauter geometry and sparge rate-summary and opinion

George Danz in HBD #2613 asks, unknowingly kicking over the sparge
bucket (again):

"What is a good guideline for ratio of grain depth to tun diameter?"

Kelly Jones responded, ln 2617 I think, quite reasonably,
"Why does anyone suppose that the RATIO of depth to diameter has any
bearing on the mechanics of sparging?  The important parameter is DEPTH.
If you consider a drop of water making it's way down through the grain
bed, it has no knowledge of how far it is from the sides of the tun.
The only thing it sees is the distance it travels from top to bottom."

Which is correct, as long as the vessel is very large, so flow edge
effects are minimized. Yet, rate rears it's ugly head.

In 2620, Al K.quotes  "Daryl Richman...says it's documented in his book,
"Bock" on pages 92-94, a flow rate of about about 0.2-0.33 gal./min, per
square foot of surface area in a traditional mash tun."
And Charlie Scandrett, in 2620  "The ideal flow rate is in the order of
9 to 15mm per minute for *sparge flow*. "

I am qualified to weigh in on this argument because I too kicked the
sparge bucket over in HBD 2069 where I reported an experiment, leading
to a hydraulic conductivity of barley of about 3 x 10-2 cm/sec, leading
through a Darcy's flow equation for a standard zapap lautertun of 0.6
liters/min physical capacity for flow. Drawing from below the false bottom at
above that rate led to suction beneath the screen, and a stuck sparge followed
closely thereafter.  My experimentally determined rate, Charlies rate (if I
understand the units) and Al's reported rate are all in the ball park.

That rate, though, is optimum for physical flow, not for extraction of
goodies.  Slower is better for leaching.  I disagree with Al, who states we
need to "run off at a relatively slow rate to give the sugars a chance to
diffuse from the
areas of stagnant wort into the runnings." I agree we need to go slow, I
don't agree diffusion is significant.  I think flushing is the operative
physical process,and the chemical process is probably equilibrium of solutes,
much more important than molecular diffusion.

Al believes in channeling.  To prevent channeling, the grain bed
thickness should either be: 1) very high, so as to place a maximum head
pressure of sparge water on those pores who are "stagnant" (the sledgehammer
approach, very slow), or 2) very low, to minimize the unit volume of stagnant
pores (the single layer approach, very fast, but uses lots of water).  I don't
think channeling is significant in homebrew sized batches no matter what the
thickness.  If you have dry grain, you need to stir more. Process 1 will be
stuck because of the weight of the grain, as Charlie noted; process 2 just
really isn't practical.

But, to get back to George Danz's question, I think the critical issue
for homebrew sized batches is the edge effect.  You want sparge water to
flow through the grain, not between the grain and the sparge vessel.  I
believe you'll find a balance between the sledgehammer and single layer
approaches by using a ratio of depth to width of between 0.5 and 1. This
avoids compression by grain weight, yet has a manageable size and can drain
well to a variety of devices. What the megabreweries do is irrelevant to this
problem, as they have much more room and water to use and worry about. Draw
less wort from the grain than the grain can yield, using the above estimates,
say 0.5 liters/min maximum, so as to maximize contact time and get the
goodies.  Maximize grain/water contact, both in tun geometryand practice, and
you'll have a great lauter and resulting beer.

I highly recommend the design written recently in BT by J. Palmer. It is based
in sound science and hydraulics, yet simple, elegant, and effective.  (Thus
damn fine engineering, IMHO). His paper on lautering dynamics was well written
and informative.  It was on the web, at least briefly...maybe someone has the
URL.  

GuyG4 at aol.com
Guy Gregory
Lightning Creek Home Brewing-Spokane WA
"....no matter what the circumstance, the brewing process is strongly
robust"-Rex Saffer, 1997.


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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:56:37 -0800
From: "Olin J. Schultz" <beerx3 at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: high gravity efficiency

Dan wrote:
> Lower efficiency for high-gravity beers?
>  >Has anyone (besides me) experienced significantly lower extract
>  >efficiencies for "big beers". 
 
> Rob wrote:
> >I have, but equated it with the generally low efficiencies encountered
>  >on the brewhouse I previously worked in. Now that you mention it, my
> 
> >Barleywines were notoriously low in efficiency. But, them's the breaks,
>  >I said, it still produced a decent beer. Maybe others would like to
>  >quantify it?

 
 I have always attributed this diminishing return to less sparge water
 per pound of grain?  Less efficient rinsing of the sugars.


Olin Schultz

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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:20:41 -0800
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: homebrew cooking - copying


Just a quick note.  A number of people have asked about the cooking
recipes I've been posting, and copying them, copyrights, &c.  First,
it's flattering that any would even try following my advice in the
kitchen, and if you ever saw my kitchen you wouldn't.  As for copying
the recipes to your club newsletters, or whatever - go for it.  The
subject line on all of the posts start with "homebrew cooking" so it
can be easily searched for (or skipped over).  I've made up all of the
recipes, and in fact I don't really own a cookbook, so you don't have
to worry about copyright violations.  I guess about all I'd ask is
that you don't try to pass it off as your own, and take all of the
fame and money for yourself;-)

Obligatory homebrew content: Do siphons suck, or does the beer push?

SM (will cook for beer)

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 06:35:24 -0600
From: Mark_Snyder at wastemanagement.com
Subject: On politeness, critiqueing, etc.




Mark Snyder at WMI
01/29/98 06:35 AM
Just an observation, but...

In HBD #2622, Phil Wilcox offers the following to Eric Fouch regarding
politeness:

(snip)
1. A little politeness goes a long way.
2. If you don't know all the facts don't fuel the fire with incompetent
speculation.
3. If you insist on making you (sic) opinions known, take the time and
effort to know what your talking about.
4. Goto #1
(snip)

Incorporating the term "incompetent speculation" in #2 above seems to
contradict #1.  And when one considers the following offered advice:

(snip)
Brew pub Operations--
If you don't understand how they work-SHUT UP!!!! and stop making stupid
offers to redesign them.
(snip)

Methinks someone should learn to practice a bit more of what they preach.

Flame away.

Mark Snyder
 Within the same hemisphere as most of you.



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:19:26 +0000
From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalistech.com>
Subject: Lubricating Keg Posts

Hi all,

I find, after time, that it can be very difficult to get ball lock 
fittings attached to kegs.  Gas fittings, liquid fittings both can 
take quite a lot of pressure.

Several years ago, I saw someone lubricate one with a silicone spray. 
 What is the general wisdom regarding ball lock keg post lubrication? 
 What do other people currently use?  Is silicone spray a good idea, 
and if so where do I get some?

- ---
John Robinson       "When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty.
Software Developer   I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I
NovaLIS Technologies have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know
robinson at novalis.ca  it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983)

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:09:24 -0500
From: KROONEY at genre.com
Subject: Keeping Cornelius Kegs Cool at Parties?


I'd like to serve several beers in Cornelius kegs at an outdoor party.  I
was thinking about building a rectangular wooden box to hold 3 or 4 kegs,
ice & CO2 tank.  Has anyone done this who is willing to share his/her
ideas?  Does anyone have an alternative for keeping them cool outside the
refrigerator?



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:09:42 -0500
From: KROONEY at genre.com
Subject: Cheap Counter Pressure Fillers - any good?


I have seen a few documents in cyberspace explaining how to build a CP
bottle filler using a picnic tap, copper tube and rubber stopper.  For
someone who bottles infrequently, is this a reasonable alternative to the
$50 or so for the real thing, or should I just drop the bucks?

Kevin Rooney
Wilton, CT



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:16:37 -0500
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: Mashing Schedules

Hello All,

I was wondering if anyone knows where I could find a chart, listing, or
publication of mashing schedules (times & temps) based on styles of
beer. I have read thousands (well, maybe 10) of brewing texts and
understand the basic principles of starch conversion and all that, but I
wanted to find something in the order of a quick reference sheet. For
instance, what mash schedule produces the best possible Pilsner, or Pale
Ale, etc. I know that brewing is an art form, and I could continue to be
creative by just doing whatever my heart desires, but I would like to
refine my mashing techniques. I have the equipment to do infusion, step,
and decoction mashes, although I haven't attempted decoction yet. At
least not intentionally. I did leave a mash unattended once with the
burner on and returned to find it at a nice roiling boil!! Oh well, the
brew turned out fine.
Anyway, if anyone has any ideas where I could find such a thing let me
and the collective know. I have searched through all of my brewing mags
and not found alot other than narrative text. 

Thanks and Cheers!

Marc 
- -- 
Capt. Marc D. Battreall
Islamorada, Florida
batman at reefnet.com
The Fabulous Florida Keys
future site of "The BackCountry Brewhouse"

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 09:22:37 -0500
From: dajohnson at mail.biosis.org
Subject: Birmingham, AL brewpubs?


     
     Hey All,
     
     i'm going to be in Birmingham, AL for a few days at the end of 
     February and was wondering if anybody could point me toward a good 
     brewpub or 2 in the area and let me know of any good beer bars??
     
     thanks for the assistance,
     
     dan



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 06:50:14 -0800
From: Michael Rasmussen <mikeraz at patch.com>
Subject: Hop rates & the great Pale Ale experiment

(John Varady wondered about his hopping rates and concluded they were
OK  based upon a Brewing Techniques article that described a beer recipe
devised by a half dozen Oregon brewers.)

You realize that all of us Oregonians are unrepentant hop heads that
believe pale ales require a minimum of 50 IBU for detectable hop
character.

(ok, I'm kidding)

And fret not, they haven't published the follow-up yet.  

- --
Michael Rasmussen - mikeraz at patch.com
Be appropriate && Follow your curiosity

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:37:09 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Step mashing

Did a brew on the weekend using some European Pils malt.  Decided I
needed to step mash, and further decided on 40-60-70.  I mash in a
10-gallon "round" cooler, so generally use infusions to step.  Here's
what I did:

1. Dough in with cool (20C) water at about .5qt/lb (4qts in 11lbs).
Lots of fun squishing malt and water together with my hands.

2. Add 3 quarts of boiling (100C) water to raise to 40C.  Actually hit
about 42C.  Rest 20 min.

3. Add 5 quarts of boiling water to raise to 60C.  Got it right on.
Rest 20 min.

4. Add about 6 quarts of boiling water to raise to 70C.  Got close.  I
think I ended up about 68.

Total water to grain at the end: 18qts / 11lbs, or about 1.6 qts/lb.
A little loose, but not bad.

So with careful planning, a multi-step mash is definitely possible in
a cooler.  Now, with a 5-gallon cooler, I would probably have run out
of room at the end.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)
10km ESE of Jeff Renner, when he's at home, and 40km W of the HBD

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:29:04 -0600
From: Bill_Rehm at DeluxeData.com
Subject: Chillers, immersion vs. Counter-flow


I am in the process setting up my all-grain system, and my next goal is the
wort-chiller.  However I can't decide if I should go for a counter-flow or
immersion.  Niether seem too difficult nor expensive to build, but cleaning
seems to be my sticking point.  Any advice or comments would be greatly
appreciated.

I am also interested in finding some fellow homebrewers in the Milwaukee
area, does anyone know of a homebrew club in Milwaukee.

Bill Rehm
Riverwest
 Milwaukee, WI



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:41:38 EST
From: KennyEddy <KennyEddy at aol.com>
Subject: Chlorine In Brew Water

Mike Key asked about the effects of chlorine in brewing water and the ways to
remove it.  Chlorine can complex with other compounds in wort to lend off-
flavors that are mediciny or band-aid-like.  The on-faucet filter he mentioned
should work just fine but he complained about the slow throughput (though 1
gal per minute sounds about like my faucet).  I use a HomeDepot-class
*undersink* cartridge charcoal filter.

Remember that many (most?) municipalities are now using a different
chlorination scheme that is quite resistant to boiling -- charcoal filtering
is about your only sure thing.  Besides, it makes your tap water nicer for
cooking and drinking (a public service message for those who need to justify
their HB expenses to skeptical spouses...).

Once I found that my tap water was overboard on certain minerals and that
brewing salts are easy to work with, I started buying RO water and adding
salts to get the profiles I needed.  No chlorine and great flexibility.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:02:47 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Irish-American Red Ale recipe

Brewers

It's about time to think about brewing a beer for a St. Paddy's Day party.
How about something different from the usual stout or green beer, something
with an American touch?  I've made an Irish-American ale that I figure is
similar to what was served in Irish neighborhood taverns in the Northeast
100 years ago, although I have no proof.  Maybe like McSorley's?  It's sort
of a red ale with corn, flaked barley, medium crystal and a touch of
chocolate.  It's a little stronger than a British session beer,  a little
less than typical US beers (due to higher FG), and certainly less strong
than the authentic ales of a century ago, but they didn't have to drive
home then.  This is popular with Killian's drinkers as well as real ale
fans as it has enough interest to hold them.  Resist the temptation to up
the bitterness as it is inappropriate in this style.

McGinty's Irish-American Ale
5.25 gallons  at  1.044

5.5 lbs 6-row (US 2-row should work, too)
1.75 lbs flaked maize
 .75 lbs flaked barley
0.5 lbs crystal 30L
2 oz. chocolate

Mash 154F 60 minutes.  Actually, though, I did a 40/60/70C mash (30 minutes
at each step) adding the corn at 60C.  The 40C rest may have helped break
down beta-glucans in the barley, and passing from 40 to 60 over 30 minutes
or so effectively gave me a protein rest, which may have made the beer
clearer.  Irish moss might not hurt.

Bittering hops - Cluster (I used 3/4 oz for 19 IBU)
Finishing hops - Golding (Domestic would be fine) (I used 1/2 oz for 15
min. for 4 IBU and another 1/2 oz at knockout) (FWH might be nice here)
Target 23 IBU

Irish Ale yeast YeastLab A05

OG 1.044
FG 1.015

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:26:17 -0600
From: rossst at duke.usask.ca (Stephen Ross)
Subject: competitions: bottles/carbonation

Thanks to all who replied so helpfully via email.

For those of us who bottle in fliptop or PET bottles it is encouraging to
hear that some comp's accept them.

QUESTION: Is it a disadvantage to yeast carbonate the bottles vs force
carbonate?

Experiences? Suggestions?

Thanks!

Stephen Ross in Saskatoon, SK



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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:46:27 -0500
From: Danny Breidenbach <dbreidenbach at nctm.org>
Subject: Infusion mashing outside

I've got an EasyMasher.  I've got an afterburner-style propane stove. 
I've got a spot right outside my walk-out basement door.  Now the way I
understand EasyMashing -- I can use the burner to boost mash temp if it
should happen to fall.  In a thin enamel-on-steel kettle without
insulation, I 'spect the temp will fall.  So if'n I want to use the
burner to boost the temp, then I want to take the whole sh'bang outside
so I don't asphixiate myself or create spectacular pyrotechnics since
I've got a gas water heater and furnace in the basement.  So since it's
winter (assuming I ever get around to brewing before June), the ambient
temperature will hasten the loss of heat.

My question:  should I anticipate enough heat loss INDOORS that I really
ought to do my mash OUTDOORS with the burner?  Or do I just muck about
and see what works (which is what we all really do anyway ....)

Rash speculation is welcome.
- --Danny Boy

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:54:23 -0600
From: Glyn Crossno <Glyn.Crossno at cubic.com>
Subject: Tabernash  Weisse {1} Bottling strain ?????

I've checked the "Yeasts from Bottle Conditioned Beers" page:
http://www.nada.kth.se/~alun/Beer/Bottle-Yeasts/#SeYeasts

The {1} means:  "What follows comes from a single report. If you agree
with the statement, please report to me. I'd much rather have this page
reflecting some kind of consensus rather than single opinions. Of
course, if you think anything is wrong, then report that. "

Tabernash
     Weisse
          {1} Bottling strain.

Does any one have any thing on this beer/yeast?

Thanks,
Glyn outside of Estill Springs, TN
and outside the house if I'm brewing.
- --
"Education is what survives when what has been learned has been
forgotten"
B.F. Skinner



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Date: 29 Jan 1998 13:02:21 -0500
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: Get ready for WAR


HBD-
As much as I hate using this forum to air dirty laundry, and spar with
co-subscribers, I feel the need to battle with incongruities, and can't resist
the chance to try to impress the collective with my talents in self-defense,
and general command of the English language.  Of my heartfelt comments on
Harper's Brew Pub, Phil Wilcox admonishes me to "...not publicly rag on a new
brewpub..." then proceeds to call their porter "awful".  I guess he can, but I
can't?  Whatever.  More importantly, never in my post did I make a personal
attack against the pub or the personnel.  I merely reported that I didn't like
the beers we had:  The American wheat, the amber, the stout and the cream ale,
all were oxidized.  At least that is what I would attribute the wet cardboard
flavor to.  Perhaps we caught them on an off night.  Furthermore:

1. A little politeness goes a long way.
 -So does impetulance and exaggeration.  Practice what you preach.

2. If you don't know all the facts don't fuel the fire with incompetent
speculation.
 -I was the first to claim I was "incompetent" as to the design and operation
of brew pubs.  I simply "thought out loud" as to how they may be achieving
oxidation.  I know that approach (thinking out loud) is oft frowned upon in
this forum.  I take my lumps.

3. If you insist on making you opinions known, take the time and effort to
know what your talking about.
 -Touche~.  But, like you, simply holding my opinions, sometimes is
unfullfilling, and I feel the need to inflict them upon others.

4. Goto #1
 -Whatever.  Don't make me have to come over there!

On other thing I can't help but comment on:

"And its selling well in a brew pub smack in
the middle of Michigan State University. That says something."

I didn't know MSU college students were such beer connoisseurs. Do they have a
course in beer appreciation? We did at CMU (who, by the way, is currently 2-1
in football against MSU). We held it every weekend wherever we could find and
drink large amounts of cheap beer. All I learned in my course was "There MUST
be something better!" Hence the home brewing hobby.

Jim Booth did comment to me *privately* that he tried their rye beer and said
it held some promise.  I don't like rye beer, and did not try it.

Luv ya Phil - Don't go changing!  (Shouldn't you be off poisoning frogs?)

Seriously - Best of luck to the young brewer at Harpers!  Hope you line out
that little oxidation problem, and everybody who can: Stop by and try the
sampler.  And the salad bar.  I'll be here all week folks!

I will not respond further in this forum to further comments, misguided or
not, regarding my previous post.  Please flame me in private, I enjoy the
colorful banter and witty repartee.

I LOVE the way my Belgian Raspberry Wheat looks and smells in the fermenter.

Eric Fouch
HEAD Brewer, BentDICK YoctoBrewery (insert your own punchline here)
Kentwood, MI
efouch at steelcase.com
"High smell harmonized with good smell, sweet after be drunk, with long smell"
 -Advertisement for Pingba Jiaojiu, an alchololic drink made in Guizhou China.

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---