HOMEBREW Digest #2706 Wed 06 May 1998

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  Oxidisers, ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Head Start Cultures (Ted Major)
  Burners ("Jim Busch")
  starters (Michael Lausin)
  Confusion over delta T ("Matthew J. Harper")
  repitching from the same batch? ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Beer police (Al Korzonas)
  boiling hopped extract (Al Korzonas)
  Re: stout/porter and another opinion (Spencer W Thomas)
  A pub by any other name... (Dave Sapsis)
  Stainless Conical Fermenter ("Fortes, Jim R")
  Boil Roll and Evaporation Rate (Troy Hager)
  Brinkmann Burners ("George, Marshall E.")
  Cheap Burners (Jack Stafford)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:33:59 -0400 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Oxidisers, Brewsters: AlK says: >As for oxidation, I suspect that each alcohol has a different likelyhood >of being oxidised I doubt there is much difference in simple alcohols with different chain lengths, except those in which steric hindrance comes into play. > (it can come from oxidised melanoidins in beer or >even from iron in the water, Dave... surely you know free oxygen is not >the only source of oxidation) Right, but it is the most common one. > and I'm not willing to presume that ethanol >is more or less likely to be oxidised than the higher alcohols. Is there >any kind of data on this in chem books? I know that alcohols have a higher >affinity to the oxygen than the melanoidins... this explains why the >melanoidins will give up their oxygen to the alcohols to form aldehydes >in stale beer. Actually, I have read this here, but have never seen it in scientific literature. Doesn't mean it is wrong, just that it is difficult to explain unless the oxidised melandoins were oxidised during the boil ( for example) and then these react with alcohol after it is formed in fermentation at a much later time. I would like to hear a good discussion of the kinetics of this reaction. Other pathways are also theoretically possible in which the oxidised melandoins break down to aldehydes - a prospect I find more likely. >No, wait... I'm *sure* ethanol doesn't have the highest affinity for >the oxygen... the aldehyde of ethanol is acetaldehyde, right? Yes and acetaldehyde is the "sherry" taste. Oxidation of ethanol produces acetaldehyde and sherry tastes. Oxidation of acetaldehyde produces acetic acid. This can form the ester with ethyl alcohol to give ethyl acetate or nail polish remover. > Given that >there is at least 100 times more ethanol in a typical beer than any other >alcohol, I suspect that the existance of *any* other aldehyde indicates >that those alcohols have a higher affinity for the oxygen. Granted, I >don't know what other pathways there are for the formation of aldehydes... >I know that trans-2-nonenol is a significant player in stale beer. If >I'm not mistaken, it's the "wet cardboard" aldehyde. Well I don't entirely agree with your logic. Suppose all the alcohols were the same potential then you would still get these aldehydes of fusel oils and other sources. It is also likely that many of these do not come directly from alcohols, so that further disturbs the logic. Also, we have differing sensitivities to all kinds of chemicals, so what we detect with our noses is not a representative example of the concentration in the liquid.. I know that esters form during storage. I recently had a sorgenkindern (problem child) Merlot that had a funky taste that I presumed had come from oxidation but the components of the aroma were not clear. A year in the bottle and it smells like nail polish remover, so there isn't much doubt that esterification occurred in the bottle. - ------------------- Alan T quotes Dr. J.R. Harrison's discussion of stout and Harrison says: >There is no doubt about the origin of stouts. When high gravity porters began >to be produced in the early nineteenth century they were called 'stout >porters'. The adjective 'stout' was carrying its old English meaning of >'strong' [1]. Some brewers then began to drop the word porter as unnecessary, >leaving just stout. Of course, he is dead wrong on this, as one of my quotes ala Lewis indicated that the adjective "Stout" was often applied to beers and ale in the 17 century and likely before that. He is also wrong about the grist for Irish Stouts. Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com Voice e-mail OK Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:17:31 From: Ted Major <tidmarsh at mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Head Start Cultures >Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 22:41:46 -0500 >From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com> >Subject: Head Start Yeast Co... Where are you?? > >Does anybody know the whereabouts of the Head Start Brewing Cultures...?? > .........Old address and info was.........921 Bill Smith Road > ...Cookeville, TN 38501 >(931) 372-8511 BAN5845 at TNTECH.EDU > Dr. Brian Nummer, proprietor, is now owner of the Athens Brewing Company in Athens, Georgia, but I think he still does the Head Start cultures as well. Try Athens Brewing Company 312 E Washington St Athens GA 30601 (706) 549-0027 Tidmarsh Major tidmarsh at mindspring.com Birmingham, Alabama "Bot we must drynk as we brew, And that is bot reson." -The Wakefield Master, Second Shepherds' Play Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:56 +0000 From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com> Subject: Burners Someone mentioned using Solarflo burners. I use one too, a 24 jet slotted cap burner I bought in '91. At the time they sold direct to individuals, since then I have had friends denied service from them. I think its for liabilty reasons. That said, for large systems I would advise looking at Wok burners, much cheaper than Solarflo and evey bit as good compared with impinged jet burners. You can get em for around $50 new from restaurant supply houses. Best for 20 gal+ systems. For smaller units I also would go with the Superb. Been interesting to read about the Big 12 brew. I think it will be fun to hear what the physical data, post fermentation reveals. Final gravities in particular Id like to know, as O2, mashing and yeast variations will have large effects on the final beer. I wonder if ever in the history of North America have so many gallons of barleywine ever been frementing at once! Prost! Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:41:33 -0600 From: Michael Lausin <soscc at cmn.net> Subject: starters greeting fellow beerlings, i brewed the big 10/20 barly wine on saturday. i split it between 2 carboys because of the explosive blow off i had heard about. it was a good thing too, each carboy was 1/2 filled with foam and it was (emphasis on was) bubbling like crazy. it now appears that the initial ferment is over, time to add the champagne yeast. how do i do a starter for the champagne yeast or is it better to just pitch a pack into each carboy? tia, michael lausin Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:53:16 -0400 From: "Matthew J. Harper" <matth at progress.com> Subject: Confusion over delta T I'm in the planning process for RIMS construction. Many thanks to the replies I received two weeks ago regarding various questions I posted then. My current question may be simple, but isn't just a RIMS issue. Most RIMS target a rate of Temperature increase of 1-1.5 Degrees a minute. Many non-RIMS all-grain brewers who do stepped infusion mashes do so by either heating the mashtun or by adding a measure amount of water at a specific temperature to reach the target goal. (my former method.) I've seen conflicting information lately regarding the good/bad of quick temperature changes. Basically, anything over 1 degree or so a minute being *bad* and causing undesired early sacharification of the mash. This would imply that the 'add so many quarts of X temp water' method is a *bad* thing, but it *does* work and *has* proven to be a usable process for making good & great beer. ObRIMS I've been contemplating a non-standard heating chamber using an external mounted (wrapped) heat source (tape or ceramic) that gets wrapped around the pipe. However, some of these beasties have pretty high temps. A good flow rate would help reduce the (proposed) risk, but I dunno. Has anyone tried this method? Can someone *please* clear up my confusion on this? Is a quick immediate jump to the target temperature (by overshooting and letting it average out..) as bad as some would say? Why or why not? Many thanks in advance! This issue is holding up my brewing and my reserves are running out... :-( -Matth Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:30:52 -0700 From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com> Subject: repitching from the same batch? Has anyone ever repitched a batch from the primary to the secondary? I have a lager which is just putting along very very slowly. Most likely due to low pitching rate. I decided to rack it to the secondary, wash the yeast left behind in the primary, and add it back to the secondary. The secondary fermenter is now bubbling along again, hopefully faster than before. I tried not to aerate it while racking. Comments? - Bryan gros at bigfoot.com Oakland, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:59:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Beer police Dave writes: >I have heard from time to time >comments by BJCP types - "well that's not a real XYZ >beer" even though the brewer called it that. If the brewer >is a brewpub who stated brewing last month and only read >about beer XYZ in a homebrewer magazine, then I think the >BJCP has the right to say something like that. If the beer >is a classic from the native country where the style was born >then I think it is time for a little perspective adjustment. Firstly, I take pride in being one of those "BJCP types" and to the best of my knowledge, no official BJCP statement has been issued regarding any beer being or not being representative of a style. Secondly, if a beer is a classic from the native country where the style was born, you will not have any argument from us "BJCP types" that the beer is representative of the style. However, when British brewers create 1.035 beers and call them "IPAs" then the brewer needs a little perspective adjustment. You may have had a problem with one person who happened to be in the BJCP, but besides Dennis Davision, who is the current BJCP President, no one person speaks for the BJCP. I've judged with some very high-ranking BJCP judges who were jerks and had little interest in much beyond their own ego, but a few bad apples don't spoil the whole bunch. As far as I can tell, all of the people in the BJCP Beer Style Committe are level-headed and genuinely interested in making the style guidelines as accurate and representative as possible. I'm probably the most impulsive of the whole group, but we all keep each other in check and I'm sure the guidelines (the first pass of which has just gotten up to category 17, incidentally) will be very good if not excellent. If we goof up (and we probably will make a few mistakes), we'll accept suggestions from anyone (really!) who wants to make improvements to the guidelines. I'm afraid I'll have to vote against lowering the OG of IPAs to 1.035 if any of you have that suggestion in mind... ... I didn't think you did ;^). Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:05:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: boiling hopped extract John writes: >The local homebrew shop owner >told me that the 25-35 EBU range means you start at the lower range (25 EBU) >and increase the longer you boil up to 35 EBU. I always assumed that hopped >extracts were fully isomerized and additional boiling would not increase the >bittering--unlike boiling hops up to 60 or 90 mins. Perhaps he meant that as you boil off more water, the gravity *and* bitterness would go up. Then again, most brewers would add water back to reach 5 gallons, so that's probably not it... no, it sounds like another misguided homebrew supply shop owner. You're right... the hop extract they add is already isomerised. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:06:49 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: stout/porter and another opinion I do find it interesting, however, that the Oxford English Dictionary includes the following quotes in support of its definitions for stout and porter (as types of beer). In each case, the first is the earliest known (to the editors of the OED) quote containing the word in that meaning. For stout: 1677 R. Hawtrey Let., Egerton MS. 2716 We will drink your healths both in stoutt and best wine. A. 1700 B. E. Dict. Cant. Crew, Stout, very strong, Malt-Drink. For porter: 1727 Swift Further Acc. E. Curll Wks. 1755 III. i. 161 Nursed up on grey peas, bullocks liver, and porters ale. Note that the earliest usage of "stout" to refer to a beer precedes the earliest usage of "porter" by more than 25 (and maybe 50) years. That's not to say that the "stout" of 1677 was in any way similar to the "stout" of today. In fact, the 1700 quote from a dictionary, defining "Stout" as a "very strong malt drink", implies that it was used as we might use "barley wine" today. I think I'll sit firmly on the fence, and say: * "Stout" preceded "Porter" as a name for a kind of ale. * "Stout Porter" became the beer we now know as "Stout". =Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:21:59 -0700 From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov> Subject: A pub by any other name... Good Folks, Away to Catalonia and England, I come back, catch up on HBD, and I find I have a magetically induced dipole boring through my head causing me to salivate into my breathalyzer and piss in my Clinitest cup. I think I need to find me a chiropractor and drink a stout. Or maybe a porter... Here is what I do know: The institutiion that is the Pub in the UK is an artful creation that brings people and beer together in a unique and highly satisfying way -- one that i have yet to fully see explored anywhere else. While pubs (and the beers served) span a range, when put together like the Victoria in Bayswater (a lovely Fuller's house) or the New Flying Horse in Wye ( A Shepard Neame Inn) you find yourself naturally engaged in good converation whilst drinking good real ale. As natural a convergence as I have yet experienced. May we all learn something from the small island. Cheers, - --dave in sacramento (trying to relearn to drive on the right) David Sapsis Fire and Fuels Specialist CDF Fire and Resource Assessment Program 916.227.1338 dave_sapsis at fire.ca.gov Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:32:31 -0700 From: "Fortes, Jim R" <JRF7 at pge.com> Subject: Stainless Conical Fermenter Looking for a stainless conical fermenter for 20 gallon batches that I won't have to mortgage the house for. Sabco has a 17 gallon, I think PBS has a 15 gallon, and there used to be some advertised in BT that were 10 gallon corny kegs fitted with a cone. All ok but I would have to buy two and at their prices I wouldn't be able to eat for a year. I might just have to stay with four 6.5 gallon carboys fitted with Fermentaps. Even a one barrel would do if the price was right. Any info appreciated and I'm located in the SF bay area. Thanks, Jim Fortes jrf7 at pge.com http://www.sirius.com/~merojo/hopheads/jimbrew.html Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:36:14 -0700 From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us> Subject: Boil Roll and Evaporation Rate HBDers, With all this talk about burners, I have been contemplating the boil evaporation rate that I have seen using my Cajun Cooker and a 1/2 barrel keg as my kettle. In all of the literature I have read, the recommended rate of evaporation is 10% of your starting volume - if you start with 10gal you should end with 9 at the end of the boil and have boiled off one. Evaporation reduces volume, increases gravity, and reduces DMS. Another issue is getting a "rolling" boil to facilitate hop extraction and protein coagulation. Fix says in Analysis of BT, "The key to successful wort boiling is to avoid excess and to find a balance. Extracting hop constituents and removing DMS require at least some thermal loading. We found that percent of volume evaporation during the boil is a very useful control parameter." They state as guidelines that "The best general recommendation is an evaporation rate of 9-11%. In all cases, avoid evaporation rates in excess of 15%" and that "also striking is the number of times the negative effects from (excess evaporation) are incorrectly identified as problems in fermentation." Well, with my setup, a moderately rolling boil will evaporate about 1 gal per hour. I brew 5 gal batches and usually start with about 7 gal in the kettle and at the end of the 90 min boil I am left with 5.5 gal. 1.5/7 = 21.4% evaporation rate - way over the recommended 10% I have cut it down to a very low boil (*barely* rolling) and come up with a rate at about 15%. I'm sure most of you brewing 5 gal batches in converted kegs have this same dileama. Those who brew 10 gal batches probably can come closer to the magic 10% number because of the greater initial volume. So, what am I to do? 1. Cut my boil to almost no roll and try to get close to 10% evaporation at the expense of hop extraction and protein cagulation. 2. Bump the boil up to a medium roll and live with evaporation that is way over the recommended rate. 3. Cover the kettle partially to allow a more rolling boil and to lower the evaporation rate to 10%. BTW, isn't this essetially what the pros do? Their kettles are partially covered with a vent tube to carry off the evaporations, aren't they? To simmulate this design, how about something like a wok top with a hole cut in it to allow a limited evaporation? I have heard so much about "NEVER cover the boil!" I personally don't see anything wrong if you partially cover your boil and hit about 10% evaporation rates. This would be enough to drive off the DMS - correct? 4. Or, say "screw it" and stop being so anal (although this is the home of the anal brewer, myself included of course!). Personal email encouraged! Thanks!!! Troy A. Hager 2385 Trousdale Drive. Burlingame, CA 94010 259-3850 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:48:10 -0500 From: "George, Marshall E." <MGeorge at bridge.com> Subject: Brinkmann Burners Rick Olivo writes: >Shopping tip for all you cheap (like me) Brewers. Menards is selling Brinkmann 160,000 BTU burners with adjustable flame controls for $44; they list at $90. Menards also has 20 Lb Propane tanks on sale at $20. Burner units are cast iron and the frame welded steel. If this is what I'm thinking, then this is the one that I'm wanting to buy. However, I'm nowhere near a Menards, and the Brinkmann I found is at Wal-Mart w/a fish frying kit. I can live w/o the fish kit, so maybe Menards is the way to go. Rick, where are you located at? Marshall George Edwardsville, Illinois Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:20:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Jack Stafford <stafford at newport26.fu.hac.com> Subject: Cheap Burners My home has an electric stove which is barely acceptable for brewing. Last summer I spotted a propane burner w/stand in ElRosario, Baja California for 180 pesos. Burner is cast iron and has the name Murillos on it. With a high pressure regulator it kicks out alot of heat, perhaps 100K BTUs. 180 pesos is about $25 US, add another $20 US for the regulator and I'm cookin' for less than fifty bucks. I use my BBQ propane tank for fuel. Jack stafford at newport26.hac.com Yeast of Eden Homebrewer's Club Member Costa Mesa, CA Return to table of contents
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