---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  OH NO! (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Judge Digest? (Steve)
  Boil time and evaporation ("Hans E. Hansen")
  Lost Address (Charles Hudak)
  Acetaldehyde ("David R. Burley")
  Some newbie all grain questions ("Tim Runnette")
  Evaporation Rates (George J Fix)
  re: Kegging in an apartment (Andrew Quinzani)
  evaporation rate comparisons useless? (Andy Milder)
  Re: kegging in an apartment (Sean Mick)
  Re: Pumpernickel Stout (Jeff Renner)
  Guinness' use of roasted grains (Dan Cole)
  Heating RIMS, keg as a CO2 source, "thermal loading" ("C.D. Pritchard")
  StVrain Spring Runoff Results ("Roger Grow")
  Re: Boiling wort (Joe Rolfe)
  Announcement - The Fifth Annual BUZZ Off (MCAB QE) (Renee Peloquin Mattie)
  Re: Re-started fermentation in the secondary ("Peter J. Calinski")
  RE: kegging homebrew in an apartment (Christopher J Redlack)
  The Jethro *.* Report ("Rob Moline")


BURP's Spirit of Free Beer competition is June 6-7 and entry information
is available by contacting Jay Adams (adams at burp.org).


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.) 

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
**ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!! 
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to brewery at hbd.org

Homebrew Digest Information on the Web: http://hbd.org

Requests for back issues will be ignored. Back issues are available via:

  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 21:03:25 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

         The Jethro Gump Report
FAQ's...
    Many have asked if a starter is favored for the second yeast....my
experience, formed when I exercised the twit side of my brewing nature, was
based on a batch of Big 12 when I tried to pitch the champagne yeast
first.....
    It stopped  at  14 P, and the only thing that really worked, was to add a
kilo of Nottingham to 5 gallons fresh wort and let it work for 8 hours, then
pitch it.
    Previous attempts to just use 500 gms in the standard manner, of
reconstitution, and attemperation were minimally productive.
    So, use a starter, and use it in a secondary.....'tons' of yeast in the
bottom of your fermenter will also prove problematic.

    Others have asked about ambient air temp conditioning.....and the simple
answer is that brewers are sort of stuck with the level of technology they
have...those with dedicated cold rooms for their beer, or even jacketed
glycol chilled conditioners will employ them....those of us without them,
and I was until I had some one else's commercial systems to play with, will
have to utilize those rooms of their houses that have the lowest temp, or
employ the wet t-shirt or towel trick, and do the best they can.....
    This goes back to a fundamental question...can the beer you make be
better? I run into this question everyday. Yeah, it can be better, if you
have the best technology that money can buy, and a team of lab specialists,
and a lab, solid welds in the support of a false bottom, and a condensate
drip ring in your stack.....and even a telephone in the brewhouse.......you
just gotta play
with the cards in your hand.
    If your basic techniques are clean....you will have a jamming beer in a
few 'long' months!! Which brings me to......

"Barleywine," the 11th Classic Style Series Book......
    It's out, and I have my copy, as a result of the Big 12 recipe being in
it....and the authors state that the five elements of a barleywine are Malt,
Hops, Water, Yeast...and .............................Time......they are
correct!

Jim Parker Resigns as AHA Director......
    Maybe this is old news, but Jim Parker has resigned as AHA Director, and
has already left the gig......for an offer he couldn't refuse, as GM/
Managing Partner of a Colorado BP. Jim has run several business before, many
beer based, including breweries, and I know he will do well this time.
    Keep in touch with your mates, Jim, the homebrewers!

Rob Rezac, The AHA 'Mouthpiece".....
    Now, being sure that all is in jest, but just to be sure, let it be
known by all and sundry that "Jethro Gump Can't Be Bought For A Six-Pack."

    But, anyone who suggests, even in jest, that I have been 'bought,'
truly doesn't know me  .....

    Now, as far as Rezac is concerned, I will state my 'personal' conviction
that he be appointed to the position that Jim Parker has left....
    No one has tried harder to rebuild the chasms created by those that made
the AHA the subject of abuse in the past....and make no mistake....they have
sometimes been, shall I say, quite 'controversial?'
    We all make mistakes.... sometimes there are those that put their own
reputations on the line to clear the debris of the past....they deserve our
support........

    Bottom Line....I know that Big Brew '98's effort to join homebrewers in
a common effort has been fruitful....and I am damn well happy to have been
involved...and continue to feel 'bloody lucky' ..........but, if you feel
you have the six pack that can buy my participation in a contrivance, send
it to me...and once I taste it, I will still state my true 'un-educated'
opinion of it..........

Just the Fact's, Maam!.......
    As of tonight...

    105 sites...some were registered, as a result of participating as per
the rules......just not pre-registering..... one site stated that all was
set to go, but  at  the last minute, he couldn't brew....
    30 sites haven't replied yet...(c'mon folks, send it in!)

    So far, over 1200 synchronized gallons of Big 10/20 have been accounted
for!!!
    1 site had  460 brewers!!! They were a home brew event and all that
passed through had to stir the pot or throw in some hops or malt, but they
participated!
    1 site brewed 90 synchronised gallons of Big 10/20!
    1 site brewed 2.5 gallons, synchronised!
        To date, 4900 lbs of homebrew malt, both grain and extract were
consumed, as were 1347 oz of hops!
    Including those commercial sites that have reported.....1906 gallons of
Barleywine were created. I think it was Jim Busch that said, "Perhaps there
has never been more Barleywine brewed in the country  at  once
before!"....(paraphrased)   Whoever it was, they are probably right.
    Again, One Hell Of An Event, Ladies and Gentlemen!

Will The Real "Micro-Brewer" Please Stand Up?...
    Ames, Iowa's only registered site was brewed by Jeff Kenton, under the
supervision of my personal Assistant Brewer, Robbie.
    Skotrat was generous enough to place evidence of this on a web page.....
http://www.andinator.com/skotrat/gifs/robbie.gif
    Robbie is the one in the foreground, seen stretching his limits to
create a great brew
 ........Jeff is in the background, following instructions!!!!
    Thanks, Scott.......and Jeff!

Final Point......
     It has been asked, "Do you get a bottle from each site?"     er... "a
six-pack from each site????"
    Of course, I said ...."Yes!" (You can send them anytime after 4-6 months
have elapsed!)


Death Of Kurt Duecker...
    It has ben reported by Kelly Kuehl of Schreier Maltings that Kurt
Duecker has died of an apparent heart attack ......
    Mr. Duecker was an instructor I was fortunate to meet while  at  Siebel.
His other professional associations are listed below....lifted directly from
the IBS Forum, without their permission........
    <SNIP>
>     Kurt was employed for thirty-six years at Schreier Malting Company in
 >    Sheboygan.  Through the years he held many positions with the
 .    company.
 >    Most recently in 1994, he was named Sr. Vice President, International
 >    Development & Special Projects, 1995, President, C.O.O. PETNA
 >    Limited,
 >    Hong Kong, 1996, Chairman, Board of Directors, CUC Nanjing Malt Ltd.
 >    In January of this year, Kurt retired as Executive Vice president of
 >    Schreier Malting Company.
 >
 >    Kurt was a long time member of the American Society of Brewing
 >    Chemists, American Chemical Society-Agricultural Division, American
 >    Association of Cereal Chemists, American Institute of Plant
 .    Engineers, Master Brewers Association of the Americas and the American
Malting >     Barley Association.  He was a faculty lecturer at the Siebel
>    Institute of Technology and the United States Brewers Academy.  Kurt
>     was also on the Board of Directors of the American Malting Barley
Association.
<SNIP>

    Jethro proposes that all who care to, open a bottle of their fave brew,
pour it gently into a glass, and lift it to Kurt......as I am doing
now........we have lost another leader in our sport and he deserves to be
acknowledged...

Jethro (Remembering  Our Mates) Gump

Rob Moline
Court Avenue Brewing Company,
Des Moines, Iowa.
brewer at ames.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 00:24:25 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at stanford.edu>
Subject: OH NO!

"A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com> writes:

> He mentioned to me once that he had learned at Siebel that protein that
> participates in forming a froth during aeration is lost as a source of
> foam in the final product.

FOOP!
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 08:45:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steve <JOHNSONS at uansv5.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Subject: Judge Digest?

It is 8 days past May 1, and I sent a post to the Judge Digest a few days ago
just out of curiosity to see if it was up an running.  Anyone have any idea
on an update on its vital signs?  Is it still in the ICU?  DOA?  Has it been
moved into a private room...?  Curious BJCP judges want to know...

Steve Johnson
Music City Brewers
Nashville, TN.....1 mile from Dave Miller's "office" at Blackstone Brewery
1 mile from Chuck Skypeck's office at Boscos


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 07:53:08 -0700
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: Boil time and evaporation

I have been reading the thread on evaporation rates, and had a
few thoughts.

1.  I think that 10% evaporation is probably impossible for most
of us stove top brewers. I suspect the kettle size/shape make this
an unreasonable goal.  I have found when doing a partial boil with
1 1/2 to 2 gal, that I get a HUGE evaporation rate (even using a
very gentle boil).  When I boil 5 gallons, the rate is more
reasonable.  Someone recently suggested that the ratio of kettle
depth to surface area may be the culprit.  Kinda makes sense,
intuitively at least.

2.  To keep my evaporation to a reasonable level, I boil vigorously
for 10 minutes or so for hot break, etc. and then just simmer for
the rest of the time for the hop isomerization (sp!).  I hadn't
seen anyone mention this, but it seems to work.

Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 07:55:51 -0700
From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak at adnc.com>
Subject: Lost Address

Greetings,

Awhile back, an HBD'er sent me some private email about a desire to develop
a SNPA clone recipe. I told him that I would get back to him when time
allowed (I was in the middle of midterms and work was a little hectic).
Well, now that I've installed NT 4.0, I lost some of my archived mail and I
don't have your email address anymore. If you're still interested in some
collaboration, please email me again.

Sorry about the blunder...

Charles


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 11:51:36 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Acetaldehyde

Brewsters:

AlK says:

>I have tasted beers in which there is no noticeable acetaldehyde aroma
>yet there are "wet cardboard" aromas.  If I'm right and this is from the

>aldehyde trans-2-nonenol, then that leads me to believe that the alcohol

>from whence this aldehyde (odd that it doesn't end in "yde"... and the
>"ol" seems to indicate it's an alcohol) came would seem to have a higher

>affinity for oxygen (or losing hydrogens) than ethanol, no? 


Well, first a little lesson in organic chemistry to explain that "ol"
versus "yde" thing.  Some aldehydes have steric or electronic 
environments
that favor the isomerization of the carbonyl group ( C=O) by removing a

proton from the beta carbon and putting it on the oxygen atom.  After a
little electron rearrangement you get an unsaturation ( double bond)
between the alpha and beta carbon and the oxygen becomes an alcohol form
called an "enol"  The fact that the trans form is the stable form makes
sense since this minimizes steric hindrance. Basically nonyl ( total 9
carbons) aldehyde rearranged to form an alcohol with an unsaturation ( 
ene
) in the 2 position of the chain. The OH group and the hydrocarbon chain
are on the opposite (trans) side of the double bond to keep out of each
other's way. ergo "trans- 2- nonenol" 


Secondly, it is a common thing that different concentrations of the same
chemical have different aromas.  A classic example is hydrogen sulfide. 

H2S is more dangerous than hydrogen cyanide, but at very, very low
concentrations our nose is extremely sensitive to this substance and we 
use
aversion to avoid going closer as a natural protection device.  In higher

concentrations, our nose cannot detect H2S at all and death is
instantaneous. I believe George De Piro gave some examples of this
concentration/aroma phenomenon  after his recent classroom activities. 
This
phenomenon is also person specific in many cases.

In the most prestigious wine book in the world (Table Wines by Amerine 
and
Joslyn):
P. 449:

"The accumulation of acetaldehyde during fermentation was investigated by

Fromachon (1953), Paul (1958), and others (see page 356)  The 
acetaldehyde
content is an indication of the degree of aeration of table wines."

P. 450:

"Sherries are of course much higher in aldehydes owing to their method of

production"....... Bayer ( 1966) reported that acetaldehyde content of 
the
wines increases with age."

I presume the same acetaldehyde concentration increases in Barley wines 
and
the sherry nature of the BW increases.

As time goes on, several things happen in the aldehyde arena in wines. 

Aldehydes are mostly bound up after fermentation, but become free with
time. So aldehyde concentration goes up, despite the many reactive 
pathways
available to the aldehydes ( oxidation to acids, acetal formation, etc.)
Secondly, the higher aldehydes begin to make their appearance ( perhaps
become unbound?). Also acetaldehyde and presumably other aldehydes react
with the tannins and anthocyanins in wine to form a precipitate.  This
basically decolors wine and the brownish residue( oxidative browning
reaction) is what colors sherry tan to brown, even though it was likely
made from black grapes.  I suppose these same reactions with hops 
residues
and other tannins could remove some of the aldehydes from beer.  The fact

that aldehydes become unbound with time explains why young beer that has
been oxidised tastes OK, but as time goes on it takes on "aged" off 
tastes.
This helps resolve the problem I have with an oxidized species
(oxy-melandoins) hanging around and then oxidizing the alcohols later.

I assume that acetaldehyde in extremely low concentrations like in fresh
Budweiser smells of green apples and in higher concentrations and in the
presence of small amounts of other aldehydes, smells like sherry.

> What I mean
>is that if you smell an aldehyde that is NOT acetaldehyde, then I 
suspect
>it's corresponding alcohol had a higher affinity for oxygen (or losing
>hydrogens) than ethanol... otherwise, since the conditions apparently
>were "right" for this alcohol to be converted to an aldehyde, then why
>wasn't ethanol converted to acetaldehyde (there's plenty of it around)?

>Does this make sense?

I think I understand your point, but my point is if all alcohols have 
about
the same reactivity toward oxygen and other oxidizers then you will have 
a
variety of aldehydes, so the fact that you smell other aldehydes just 
means
that all the alcohols are equally reactive, which is predicted. You may 
be
more sensitive to certain other substances than acetaldehyde, so you 
cannot
depend on your nose to do a quantitative chemical analysis.  Also certain

substances, including aldehydes, block your ability to smell other things
 (
ala air fresheners).  I doubt that such an undefined smell as wet paper 
or
whatever is just one substance.

I  would also like to know more about the science surrounding the
identification of this substance and how a 9 carbon atom compound got in
the beer, anyway. Fusel oils? I doubt it.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 09:05:53 -0700
From: "Tim Runnette" <parothed at napanet.net>
Subject: Some newbie all grain questions

I've been reading a lot about single mash infusion and have decided to take
the plunge from partial mash and extract to all grain.

1. I have a false bottom and a 5 gallon igloo picnic cooler.....can I use
the same vessel for a mash tun and lauter tun???
2. If no, why not?  It would seem like transferring vessels would be a loss
in temperature.
3. Any recommendations or lessons learned would be greatly appreciated as I
delve into the world of all grain
4. Been reading The Brewmaster's Bible by Snyder as my motivation and most
recent reference.


Thanks in advance

Tim.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 May 98 12:37:08 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Evaporation Rates

There is a substantial literature on the detrimental effects of 
excessive thermal loading of wort. We gave only one reference in
our book (Narziss), but this was a survey article which gave a nice
review of the current state of the research in this area, as well as
many references. Coors has also done a lot of work on the subject,
and a preliminary report was given at the Brewing Conference held
at the Univ. of Colorado - Colorado Springs in February. I was a
speaker at this conference (on a completely different topic), and
did not get an opportunity to take good notes on the other talks.
However, I know of at least two people in this forum who did, and perhaps 
they may wish to comment.

The mechanisms are the Millard reactions. The first products formed are 
simple melanoidins. These are highly desirable, and contribute a "fine
malt" tone to beer. Sweet wort produced from decoction mashes and
moderately modified malt has been shown to be rich in such compounds.
As the thermal loading  becomes extreme, a long list of other Millard
products having a wide range of  undesirable flavoring are
formed. They are often confused with problems arising in the fermentation,
but they are actually formed in the kettle and apparently pass through the 
without substantial change.

For most brewing configurations the total evaporation is approximately
proportional to the total thermal loading, and hence it is used as the
indicator. (There are certain exceptions such as found in some poorly
designed kettle vents.) Coors is apparently sensitive to this when the
evaporation rate exceeds 12%, while Narziss quotes 13-14%. Our study
indicated that perhaps it is a tad higher. Nevertheless, what is 
common to all these studies is that too much is bad.

George made an excellent point in that we should never lose sight of
the big picture. As far as overall beer quality is concerned , the 
issues associated with yeast are paramount. I see the issues discussed 
here as fine tuning, i.e., something that could add a  couple more points 
to the scores you give your beers.

I have no intention of responding either now or at any point in the future 
to the individuals who made nasty comments (either directly or indirectly).
I do not know any of these people, and it is clear that the only thing
we have in common is a very strong desire to keep it that way.

George Fix




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 13:34:46 -0400
From: Andrew Quinzani <quinzani at mediaone.net>
Subject: re: Kegging in an apartment

 >  I was wondering how other people have successfully
 > dealt with a problem like this.  I want to use 5 gallon corny kegs.
I was
 > thinking that one of these might fit in the bottom of the
refrigerator,

 ----------------------------

 Brian, There is a device called a "cold plate", Fox equipment has it as
well as any
 local people that service bars and soda machines in rest. It is a hunk
of Alum. with
 copper coils running back and forth inside it, most have passes for
three or more
 porducts (Three different beers!) The plate goes in the fridge, your
kegs stay outside
 as well as your Co2 tank out of the way, like under a cabnet or
something. The nice
 thing is about the cold plate is that it takes up very little room and
you can put
 items on top of it as it is flat, about 3 inches thick. You will
however have to make
 a hole in the side of the fridge someplace for the lines to enter......


 -=Q=-

"Q" Brew Brewery...Home of Hairy Chest Ale
- ------------------------------------------------------------
quinzani at mediaone.net




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:38:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Andy Milder <milder at rs6k1.hep.utexas.edu>
Subject: evaporation rate comparisons useless?

Regarding the evaporation rate thread, I believe the 10% rate of
evaporation rule-of-thumb may not be useful to homebrewers. Most 
likely it is a rule developed for commercial brewers. One big 
difference between them and us: the ratio of surface area to volume.
Given the same "thermal load", the larger this ratio the more
water evaporation that should take place. When I boil 25 liters in 
my 10 gal pot, the ratio is about .036 cm^-1. For a 10 barrel 
boiler, given the same kettle proportions (just scaled up in volume), 
the ratio is .0092 cm^-1.  So we 5 gal brewers have about 4 times the 
surface area/volume as a 10 barrel brewer. This ratio goes like the 
inverse cube root of the volume.

The evaporation rate should also depend on whether you boil outdoors 
or covered. To exaggerate the point, imagine someone inside with a
partially covered pot versus someone outside on a breezy dry day,
given the same thermal load, I'm willing to bet the outdoor brewer
evaporates far more than the indoor brewer.

I've assumed here that the evaporation rate itself is irrelevant to 
the quality of the beer, that it's the heat load which controls all
the positive and negative aspects of boiling.

Andy Milder
Austin, TX



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:19:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: homebrew at dcn.davis.ca.us (Sean Mick)
Subject: Re: kegging in an apartment

        Brian asks about corny kegging without a spare fridge. I'd suggest
one of at least two options. First, do what I did before I scored a spare
(energy guzzling) fridge for my garage: ice your corny down in a 5 gallon
plastic bucket whenever you want a beer. You can keep it in the water all
the time, adding ice and some iodophor to the bucket. Custom cutting a lid
to fit around the corny will both keep in the cool and keep the keg from
sloshing around (stirring up yeast sediment). This method kinda sucks,
frankly, and is never going to be satisfactory as a long term solution.
It's just too messy and cumbersome.

 Second, since you said you could spare some space in your kitchen fridge,
laying a corny on its side may be a viable solution. Try to find a
"Spartanburg" brand soda keg with a side draw dip tube, that way you don't
have to up-end the keg every time you want a beer. If you do this, keep the
gas-side fitting facing up, and install a one way valve on your gas-line
assembly, close to the gas quick disconnect. This will keep beer out of
your regulator should the keg roll around or your system depressurize. You
will need 25 inches minimum clearance from front to back of your fridge to
do this, unless you stick your keg in at an angle or sideways. Mine just
happens to fit perfectly sideways (in my freezer), since I stick it in
there to "quick chill" it for carbonation. I'm not about to draw an ASCII
rendition, but if anyone has more questions, please feel free to email me.

Sean Mick
Mick's Homebrew Supplies
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~homebrew




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:07:38 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Pumpernickel Stout

In Homebrew Digest #2709 (May 09, 1998), I wrote about an oatmeal stout:

 >I also once
>used some crushed raw rye kernels (pumpernickel meal) along with the
>oatmeal and called it Pumpernickel Stout.

I should have written that I cooked the coarse rye meal.  I wrote raw
meaning that it was not malted rye.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:33:49 -0400
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Guinness' use of roasted grains

I remember a discussion on this list a while back ago discussing that
Guinness added its specialty grains during the sparge and not as part of
the mash. I have searched the archives, but cannot find the postings.

Can anyone point me to the original source of this information (do I
remember right that is was Michael Jackson?) and has anyone tried it for
their stouts?

Thanks,
Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 06:51:12
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Heating RIMS, keg as a CO2 source, "thermal loading"

Matthew J. Harper wanted to know if high mash dTemp/dtime changes (dT/dt)
were a bad thing.  

I sure can't think of a reson why an instantaneous temp. rise to the
desired rest temp. would be bad.  As Matthew mentioned, folks do successful
infusion mashes (& decoction too) and they have a very high Dt/dt.  Of more
importance than the value of dT/dt IMHO is the repeatability of the dT/dt
from mash to mash.  A change in this characteristic would change the
profile of the brew from batch to batch.  At what point a change becomes
detectable in the brew, I don't know.  dT/dt is yet another variable that
can be best be dealt with IMHO by trying to keep it constant.   With a
RIMS, one sure needn't worry about the dT/dt being too high. <g> 

>I've been contemplating a non-standard heating chamber using an
>external mounted (wrapped) heat source (tape or ceramic) that
>gets wrapped around the pipe....  Has anyone tried this method?

I experimented with a piece of 1/4" OD Cu tubing spiral wrapped with an 18"
long piece of fiberglass jacketed nichrome wire (from from American Science
and Surplus, about 40 W).  I don't recall the dT across the thing, but I
wasn't too happy with it nor with the scale-up cost to RIMS size for all of
the jacketed nichrome wire which would have been required.  Insulation over
the assembly surely would of helped but, it'd also require some temp.
sensing inside the thing so that it didin't overheat if the recirc flow was
too low.  If you're going to try this approach, I'd run some small scale
experiments first.    

IMHO, a better method if you want an externally heated tube type heater is
to use your HLT as the heat source in one of 2 ways:  1)  Make something
like a counterflow chiller and recirc. hot water from the HLT to heat the
recirculating wort.  2) Forget the counterflow part and just dunk the
recirc coil in the HLT ala Rick Calley's elegant system.  Details at:
(http://www.pressenter.com/~rcalley/index.htm).

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Yet another gadget:  A spare corny keg filled with CO2 as a second source
of CO2.  It's a handy second source for purging carboys & kegs, pushing
fluids from one container to another and dispensing from kegs away from the
brewery.  IMHO it's less risky to transport and use than my 20# CO2
cylinder since, although the kegs are rated for > 100 psig, I fill mine to
no more than 30 psig.  I fitted mine with a regulator (I use one intended
for air brushes and such, ~$15) via a gas disconnect/tubing and ancillary
stuff like a supply side pressure gauge and a header with valves and
preattached hoses with disconnects and such.   With the $15 and under used
kegs that are on the market, total cost is much less than a 5# CO2 cylinder
and regulator.  To ensure there was little/none O2 in it prior to the first
filling, I chopped off the gas-in dip tube, buttoned it up, filled the
cornie with Iodophor, let soak and then pushed it out with CO2 at ~5 psig.
Invert the cylinder to allow the residual Iodophor to drain then bleed the
Iodophor via a gas disconnect/valve/hose.  Since the pressure in the keg
varies more that one used for brew, I used one of the over-sized, softer
lid o-rings that Williams Brewing (std. BS....) sells and a bit of their
silicone keg keg lube to avoid leakage.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dave B. added to the evaportion/"thermal loading" thread: 

>My suggestion is let George explain it, if he can. Like
>Scott Murman says, if past behavior is any example - I
>doubt if he will provide any data to back this up, nor comment.

Amen.  Marks' MEngr. handbook fails to even mention "thermal loading".  The
term has a nice ring to but is deviod of meaning, even when taken in the
context of the posting.  


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:39:54 -0600
From: "Roger Grow" <grow at sumatra.mcae.stortek.com>
Subject: StVrain Spring Runoff Results

The results of the 1998 St. Vrain Spring Run-Off Homebrew Competition are in
and already posted!

Congratulations to the best of show winner Bryan Tway!!
Thirsty patrons will soon be tasting his knock out Weissbier at The Overland
Stage Stop Brewery at the center of the brewing Universe, Longmont, Colorado!

And Kudos to Steve Mertens, the new dictator of Hopsnia, a small country just
south of Equador and to the left of Barlenia.

To see the results, stop by The Tribe homepage at:

http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/4003/

Cheers and good brews,
	RHG


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:39:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Re: Boiling wort

hello all,

just my .02cents worth on this wort boiling...
again you are all reading too much between the lines.
but by all means keep pushing the envelope.

what one brewer does should not have effect on what
another brewer does. brew to your environment,
modify your proceedures to get the best beer for the
equipment you have. 10% has been stated in many texts
as the average boiloff rate in say a "normal" 90 minute
brew. this depends on what your brewing.  look at A/B,
just for a reference, 650bbl batch of say Bud is boiled
for about 45 minutes.  i have no idea how long the 
inter kettle residence time is (wort holding to kettle to chiller)
but they do boil the crap out of it for those 45 minutes.
this is visible (if you dare get close enough) by the huge 
volume of wort being thrown in the kettle. granted the 
internal boiler (calandria and pumps). it is way more than a rolling
boil. this is similar to the overpowered burners most homebrewers
stuff under their kettles. 

all this is fine so long as several key points are produced
at the end of the boil:

1) the wort is sterilized 
2) you have gotten the hop qualities spec'd for the beer
3) you have obtained a good break for stability
4) OG of the wort is as spec'd
5) ph is in the proper range for fermentation
6) probably the most important - dont go broke doing it.

lot of this info can be obtained from commercial
quality brewing texts or a nice visit to the Coors library
in colorado. even then the scale they talk about is totally
different that the scale of most homebrewers (pilot batches/plants
are typical of microbrewer sizes....)


the bottom line is if you brew great beer - keep doing what your doing.
i doubt very much if it matters that you boil off 8% or 15% or 20%...
the bottom line is is the beer coming out of the process good. 

process is important, but quality ingredients is more important and this
is where most of us (including small microbrewers) get screwed. we have
no solid info as to the quality, we assume we are getting quality but
we can not afford to test for it..

anyway - i will be shut my trap now


good luck and great brewing
joe rolfe




Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:19:27 -0400
From: Renee Peloquin Mattie <rpmattie at voicenet.com>
Subject: Announcement - The Fifth Annual BUZZ Off (MCAB QE)


   1998 BUZZ Off (MCAB Qualifying Event)
   June 27-28, 1998
   
   The Fifth Annual BUZZ Off will be held at Victory Brewing Company in
   Downingtown, PA.   We will be judging all homebrewed Beer, Mead, and
   Cider as defined in the 1998 BJCP Style Guidelines. 
   
   The 1998 BUZZ Off is a Qualifying Event (QE) for the Masters Championship
   of Amateur Brewing (MCAB), your entry in any of the 18 MCAB subcategories
   is eligible to be selected to enter the MCAB National Championship round.
   
   The 1998 Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year will be announced at
   the BUZZ Off.  New to the BUZZ Off this year is the New Brewer First 
   Batch Competition for first time homebrewers.  The BUZZ Off also hosts 
   the Pennsylvania Club Challenge -- the highest scoring PA Homebrew Club 
   in the BUZZ Off will be awarded the PA Challenge Cup!
   
   The BUZZ Off will also be hosting a full day of Beer related events
   for Beer Enthusiasts!
   
   Information about the BUZZ Off is available at the BUZZ Off Web Page
   at:
   http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff
   
   note: the character in front of rpmattie is the tilde character (not
   an underscore, some mailers convert argh!!!!!)
   
   If you are interested in receiving a competition entry packet see the
   Web site, or contact us via phone, e-mail, or the Web.  The deadline
   for entries is June 20th.
   
   Judges/Stewards -- If you are interested in Judging or Stewarding, we
   want to hear from you!
   
   For more information check the Web Page or contact:
   
   Robert Mattie, Comp Organizer  rpmattie at voicenet.com
   Jim McHale, Sponsorship Committee (610) 889-0905  brewipa at aol.com
   Chuck Hanning, Judge Co-ord, (610) 889-0396 
   






Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 22:36:41 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re: Re-started fermentation in the secondary


> 
> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 07:33:17 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
> Subject: 
> 
> On Thu, 7 May 1998 brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com wrote:
> 
> >      - Dissolved CO2, and CO2 trapped or 'stuck' to suspended yeast can
be 
> >      released during the racking process.  The result is increased
bubbling 
> >      of the airlock and yeast falling out of suspension.  This is
normal 
> >      and can be ignored unless the bubbling lasts a long time.
> >      
> >      - Primary fermentations that are not complete, but happen to have
a 
> >      leaky fit around the stopper and airlock (or bucket lid) often
appear 
> >      to be done or slowing, but then increase after racking.  What
really 
> >      happened was that after racking the leaks in the system were fewer
or 
> >      gone and the CO2 is now going through just the airlock.  Knowing
how 
> >      long the beer's been in the primary is your primary clue here,
plus 
> >      any SG measurements you may have taken.
> >      
> 
> >From the time I pitched the yeast to when I transfered to the secondary
> was two weeks, the beer was at 1.022.  This was on a Friday when I racked
> it to the secondary and added the hops, it was still bubbling on the
> following Teusday. Even a week later (Friday) there was still some air
> lock activity.
> 
> I'm sure my air lock was seated tightly on the primary, I'm pretty anal
> about that.  I checked the FG of the secondary when it did stop bubbling
> (again) and it was at 1.016, so it wasn't quit done yet but why it
stopped
> in the primary is still a mystery (to me). 
> 
> By the way, after being in the bottle for two days, it tasted pretty
good,
> so I don't think it is infected, time will tell.
> 
> Thanks for all the responses I received.


   I didn't see your original post.  I experience the exact sequence you do
with nearly every batch I brew.  I went back in my records for the last
year and 12 of 17 batches note the same thing.  Bubbling of the air lock in
the primary (plastic) fermenter stops.  Some positive pressure is evident
but no bubbles in a 10-15 minute period.  Rack to the secondary (usually I
dry hop but 4 of the batches didn't call for it so I didn't....same effect
anyway).  Bubbles start in a few hours at a once per second rate and
continue for many days, slowing to once per five minutes or so.  
   In one case (using Glenbrew Ale yeast) the OG went from 1.050 to 1.017
in 6 days.  I racked to the carboy and dry hopped.  It was still bubbling
25 days later.. I bottled anyway because the SG was down to 1.006.  It was
the best IPA I have ever made.  I haven't been able to duplicate it though
I tried 7 times so far.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:45:38 -0400
From: coolhandluke1 at juno.com (Christopher J Redlack)
Subject: RE: kegging homebrew in an apartment

Brian asks:

>I have been thinking, lately, about kegging my homebrew, for all of the
>good reasons we hear about in this HBD forum.  My hesitation lies in the
>fact that I live in a one-bedroom apartment, and don't have the room for
an
>extra refrigerator.

I too live in a one bedroom apartment and have found a solution for you.
Obtain a small fridge that is bit taller than a standard 5 gal homebrew
keg. It may not look like it can handle a keg, but it can with a  few
modifications. Here are the steps.

1. Remove all of the shelving
2. Disconnect the cooling mechanism from the top (this often acts as a
freezer) and *carefully* bend it towards the back of the fridge so that
it is out of the way.
3. Unscrew the plastic piece from the door (where you'd normally keeps
eggs, butter milk, etc.) and replace it with a piece of plexy glass. The
plexy glass will act as a frame to hold the gasket in place. The screws
can be found under the rubber gasket. This will give you enough room to
close the door.

You should now have enough room for one keg and a CO2 tank. The final
step can also be used to create a great deal more room in a regular size
fridge. I friend of mine has been able to put five kegs in standard size
fridge simply by removing the plastic piece that came installed in the
door of his fridge. Nothing like having a few extra choices.

Good luck,

Chris Redlack
Rockville, MD

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you w/ a Q-tip." - Homer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:55:08 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: The Jethro *.* Report

            The Jethro *.* Report

    I had a post in, and upon receiving the queue response, saw that the
aggrieved party had a post in line........besides, I talk too much.....

Mr Burley writes.....
>My suggestion is let George explain it, if he can. Like
>Scott Murman says, if past behavior is any example - I
>doubt if he will provide any data to back this up, nor comment.

    Scott has apologized.....

    Dave, not everyone is able to match your standard of voluminous posts,
nor your bio/chem/photo savvy, (which could be a blessing,)  nor your
standards of civility, prudence, and common courtesy.
    Thank God.....
Jethro




Return to table of contents

---