HOMEBREW Digest #2757 Fri 03 July 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Great Taste, eh? (Robert Paolino)
  Re: End of my career as a brewer? (HSA from mashing/lautering) ("John W. Rhymes")
  RE:"Easy" Technique for OG Measurement? (Tony Barnsley)
  Convert a sausage grinder ("Dave Russell")
  Keg lines too long? (Nathan Kanous)
  re: stinky starter (Dave Whitman)
  re: stinky starter (sadownik)
  Re: basement brewing (Peter.Perez)
  Re: propane basement brewery.... (Joe Rolfe)
  Stability and  bactericidal activity of chlorine solutions (Steve Potter)
  "Stinky Starter" ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Re: Wind Screen Construction ("Mike & Lynn Key")
  Red Seal Ale recipe request ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Preventing excessive foaming while serving from kegs (Dave Humes)
  Kim Chee ("Robert D. Dittmar")
  Chimay Red (Kyle_Druey)
  Re. Metallurgical Question on Converted Kegs/ July 4th Brew (John Palmer)
  re:mash thickness (Charley Burns)
  Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures (George_De_Piro)
  PU Opinion/Ammonia ("A. J. deLange")
  Welcome lurkers and new posters! (Samuel Mize)
  Over-carbonated barley wine (Select Group)" <a-emoore at microsoft.com>
  Hop picking/Heart of the Hops/Kubessa/teflon/malto-dextrin (Al Korzonas)
  aerating starters (John Wilkinson)
  RE: basement brewing (John Wilkinson)
  Hitting mash Temps (Mike Spinelli)
  Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures -Reply ("LARSONC%DOM13.DOPO7")
  extract choice (JPullum127)
  Im soo sick of trub in my ferment! (Jon Bovard)
  basement brewing (Randy Ricchi)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:13:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Paolino <rpaolino at execpc.com> Subject: Great Taste, eh? The 12th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest<sm> is August 8 (second Saturday in August) in beautiful Madison, Wisconsin. Many people are already aware of North America's second(?) longest-running craft beer festival, but are kicking themselves because they didn't buy tickets on May 1. Indeed, most years we are sold out by this time. But we've increased our attendance cap by more than the usual increment this year, so even though we've sold as many tickets as we usually do by this time, we still have some. Enjoy samples of more than 400 different beers from 90 of the Midwest's best breweries and brewpubs. Find out why Wisconsin is the Beer Capital of the Midwest! Your $18 admission gets you a beautiful German sampling glass with multicolour logo and gold rim (I don't wanna hear any snickering about "milk glasses" just because we're in Wisconsin), detailed festival program that will serve as a useful beer travel guide after the fest, a shot at a cool door prize, and as many samples as you can responsibly consume all afternoon--no steenkin' pay-per-beer or beer tokens. Sample what you want, take chances on unfamiliar styles or breweries, and learn about real beer without fearing that you're wasting another buck. Also, check out the historical exhibits and talks in honour of the state's Sesquicentennial. The Great Taste is THE event for serious beer enthusiasts, and people who know keep coming back every year in amazement that we keep making it better year after year! Ordering: SASE and check for $18/ticket payable to Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild sent to: Great Taste! Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild Box 1365 Madison, Wisconsin 53701-1365 Questions? Write to GreatTaste at juno.com (not to the address in the .sig) Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino rpaolino at earth.execpc.com Madison I can taste my beer. Can you? Bland Beer is the Worst Sort of Tyranny! Don't drink bland industrial swill; it only encourages them to make more. Great Taste of the Midwest tickets now on sale! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:26:18 +0000 From: "John W. Rhymes" <jwrhymes at mindspring.com> Subject: Re: End of my career as a brewer? (HSA from mashing/lautering) In HBD 2754, Michael Kowalczyk commented on Al K's response in HBD 2745 to Bill Giffin's post on mashing equipment in HBD 2743. Bill pointed out that we can get good results using different equipment. In his response, Al pointed out the advantages of a single vessel for mashing and lautering, particularly for reduction of oxidation.. Michael said: > Al, Don't discount a technique simply because you don't beleive in it, or > have not tried it. I've made 38 beers using a canning kettle as a mash tun > and a phils phloating bottom. It requires me to mash and lauter in different > vessels. I transfer the mash very carefully and it only takes me a few > minutes (as Bill writes) to transfer. I usually mash-out a little higher > because I know the transfer looses heat. > > Of the 38 beers I've made, I've had 3 of them after a year and more with what > I would call (of course I'm not trained at Seibel) no bad taste. Nothing that > I would call aeration of the mash. Of these beers I've never dumped one. > Not even the one you helped me with (thanks Al..). > Until recently, I mashed in a pot in my oven and transferred the mash to a Zapap (drilled bucket in bucket) lauter tun -- 26 batches using that process. I brewed beers which were well regarded by people whose opinions I trust, and which I certainly enjoyed. I started entering competitions last year and had widely varying results. The same beer -- excellent from the keg in my basement -- would win a ribbon in one competition but receive dismal scores in others. The feedback on the low scoring entries was typically consistent with oxidation. One day, I sat back and looked at my results and recognized the pattern. Every ribbon was from a beer that was hand carried to the competition. Every beer that had been shipped exhibited flaws that were not present in the beer kept at home or which was hand delivered. Mechanical agitation and heat -- any energy input -- will greatly accelerate oxidation and other adverse reactions in your beer. If you are able to keep your beer in a cool and consistent environment, any flaws in the process are less likely to become evident. If your beer is subjected to agitation and heat, any flaws will all too quickly become evident. My experience has been that oxidation effects are not a problem when my beers are kept in a controlled environment, but are a definite problem when the beer is shipped. If I were not exposing my beers to the stresses of the outside world, oxidation would not be a major concern to me and I would be perfectly content with my previous process. Since oxidation is a concern to me, I have evaluated my processes and chosen to go to a single vessel to minimize oxygen intake. You're happy with your results, so your process is fine. I've experienced a problem, so I've modified my technique to fix the problem. John W. Rhymes -- Birmingham, Alabama jwrhymes at mindspring.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:25:33 +0100 From: Tony Barnsley <Tony.Barnsley at riva-group.com> Subject: RE:"Easy" Technique for OG Measurement? Stephen Harrington Writes in HBD #2755 >I brew in a 5 Gal SS pot, chill an ice bath then siphon into my >fermentor. I always end up with a hoppy, break riden sludge at the >bottom of the pot after siphoning, and just toss it. This time I let >all the junk settle out, and took an OG reading from the clear liquid. >Is this a good way to get a representative reading? I've been doing this for a while now, ever since I got my new boiler. I tend to get around 1 - 2 Quarts left behind along with all the trub. This is racked into a 1/2 gallon jug and set in the fridge to clear. Rack off the clear liquid use 8oz to take the OG and use the rest to step up a starter. SO far I have had no problems as always YMMV. If you are that concerned that its not representative, Take a reading from your wort as well They _will_ (YMMV) be the same, they are in my case! Wassail ! Tony, M.i.B (Mashing in Blackpool, Lancashire, UK) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 06:59:28 -0400 From: "Dave Russell" <drussel3 at ford.com> Subject: Convert a sausage grinder I came into possession of my grandfathers old sausage grinder and was hoping to use it as a grain mill. Nostalgia and all. It is a Merit #15, hand crank with screw auger, has three removable "plates", first with 1/4" holes, second is pinwheel shaped with 9 wings, the last with 4 pinwheel wings. All plates fit a square arbor. Using the first plate with the holes pulverized the grain to flour, the 2nd and 3rd crushed some (10%) of the grain, pulverized some and missed the most. Is there anyone with ideas on how to convert this to use as a grain mill? Does any catalog sell any interchangeable plates? Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 06:37:01 -0400 From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu> Subject: Keg lines too long? Help! Ever since I started kegging my beer, I've had a little problem. My beer foams more than I would like. I've cut the pressure down to 1 PSI. Yes, 1 PSI. I thought my regulator guage was broken because of what it read and how it looked, so I replaced it. The new gauge reads 1 PSI. I still get foaming. My fridge is running around 40 deg F. I haven't built a temp controller yet (my first is currently in use in an ice box). The lines have been cleaned, it happens will all 6 of my kegs. The only two things I thought might play a role (what do I know) are the length of the hoses are too long (pressure drops too much, resulting in foaming) or that the 90 degree elbow running into my faucets causes too much turbulence. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Nathan in Madison, WI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:12:47 -0500 From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com> Subject: re: stinky starter Jay Spies asks: >I've noticed that every time that I make a starter in my 2K ml >erlenmeyer flask, it has a distictive and very unpleasant ammonia >odor when it comes off the boil. The specifics are 1200 ml water, >1.6 cups light DME, 1 tsp yeast nutrient. Bring to a boil, chill, >aerate with O2, add yeast. Could this smell be from the yeast >nutrient? It's the white, sugary-looking kind, not the tan kind. Yeast nutrient is diammonium phosphate, and is almost certainly your culprit. Heating almost any ammonium salt will generate some ammonia. At the advice of Steve Alexander, I've been using 0.25 weight% diammonium phosphate in my starters with very good results. A crude back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that 0.25% DAP in 1200 ml of water would be about 1/2 tsp. Try cutting your nutrient in half, and see if the odor goes down. - -- Dave Whitman dwhitman at rohmhaas.com "Opinions expressed are those of the author, and not Rohm and Haas Company" Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:46:53 +0200 From: sadownik at delta.sggw.waw.pl Subject: re: stinky starter Hi all, here comes more chemistry... Jay wonders ( HBD#2755 ) what is a source of ammonia smell evolving from a boiling starter and rightly points to the yeast nutrient as a possible reason. Yeast nutrients contain diammonium hydrogen phosphate (NH4)2HPO4 and/or ammonium dihydrogen phosphate (NH4)H2PO4. These salts formally derive from weak ammonium base NH4OH and weak/medium strenght relevant phosphoric acids and as such, in water solution, undergo to some extend a reaction with water called hydrolysis. Ammonium hydroxide NH4OH is here one of the hydrolysis products and it readily decomposes to ammonia gas NH3 and water H2O, especially when heated. Ammonia gas NH3 is what finally reaches Jay's nose. So, everything is normal and OK here. In such circumstances I wouldn't boil the starter with nutrient too long and add the nutrient late for the last minute of boiling. Being chemist and homebrewer I was so glad to learn that the most knowledgeable beer related institution in USA called itself American Society of Brewing Chemists ! [ most knowledgeable just after HBD of course 8-)] Andrzej Sadownik Warszawa, Poland Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:46:38 -0400 From: Peter.Perez at smed.com Subject: Re: basement brewing I rember seeing questions posted about the safety of brewing in basements, using a gas fired burner. Unfortunately, I can't remember any of the answers from people who actually tried it, only those cautionary responses about CO levels. SO, anyone out there successfully brewing with propane in their basement? Any suggestions about ventilation or other safety issues? Thanks Hans In response to Hans question about basement brewing. I have been successfuly all-grain brewing in my basement for a while now. I purchased a carbon monoxide detector and plugged it in reasonably close to my brewing station. I have no sliding glass door or large outside opening. There is a single window that is a little larger than the ordinary basement size window. The window in my basement drops completely open however. I put a powerful fan in in the window to ensure good ventilation/circulation. I usually do 90 minute boils, and the carbon monoxide detector has not even gone off once (and yes I did test it to make sure it works). I have NOT noticed any of the usual CO side effects (headaches, light-headedness, etc). Good luck to you. Pete Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:52:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net> Subject: Re: propane basement brewery.... Hans asked in 7/1 HBD about basement brewing with propane. yes my brewery was propane based. my suggestion - dont do it - IMHO. i was brewing rather large batches by homebrew standards typically 4+bbl, this is a large volume for propane based burners. i had two of those rocket engines - no idea how many btu - plus two 5500W electrical elements 240v. electric was used to heat the mashin/sparge water then transfered to a grundy. the gas was blasted only during runoff start to castout this was about 3-3.5 hrs on average. 1) tanks left in the house for any time are a problem. use an external to the house tank, hard plumbed to a safety controlled burner. 2) fumes are a serious problem at this level. i had several 36" fans sucking air thru the bulkhead and several others in the cellar windows. skirting around the flames with a psuedo stack to one of the outgoing fans. still not enuff...i had headaches (might have been from other things too;). all together we had done about 200 (combo 2bbl/4bbl) batches. this was way to long..... beware that you will pull a lot of unwanted visitors into the brewing area with this venting. i probably should have sprung for a co detector, but i was a poverty stricken commercial wannabee. my wife was usually around whilst the brewing was going on and never detected any fumes in the upstairs, but the wort and hops could be smelled throughout the neighborhood. i am quite sure that with the proper equpiment and smaller volumes this be done in a safe fashion. safe == more expensive in most cases. when we moved to better space, we did spend about $2500/tank for brick skirting proper size power vent stacks, safty controls, electrics, permits and plumbing. for a small set up of the legal 1/2bbl kegs size;) you could spend $200-$500 for proper installation. anything less could cost you more later. my gas guy did not want to touch those burners most home brewers use. good luck and great brewing.... joe rolfe Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 09:23:46 -0500 From: Steve Potter <spotter at MERITER.COM> Subject: Stability and bactericidal activity of chlorine solutions Dear collective, An article crossed my desk today that I thought might be of some interest to those who use bleach to disinfect brewing equipment. It is in Vol 19 No. 5 of Infection Control and Hospital Epidemiology and the article's title is the same as this post. To quote the abstract, the objective of the study was "To determine the stability of sodium hypochlorite (diluted household bleach) when stored for 30 days in various types of containers and to test the efficay of low concentrations of free available chlorine to inactivate test bacteria." The "cut to the chase version" of their results is as follows: The best chlorine stability was acheived by storing it in closed brown containers - 97% of the original free available chlorine (FAC) concentration remained after 30 days. Even storing it in an open container yeilded 46% remaining concentration of FAC. They also found that the lowest concentration of available chlorine that would reliably inactivate S aureaus, S choleraesuis, and P aeruginosa was 100 ppm. FWIW, they acheived 475 initial FAC at pH 9.2- 8.2 at a 1:00 dilution. Based on their data, they are saying that daily preparation of bleach solutions is not necessary to ensure biocidal activity. As always, YMMV. Steve Potter Madison, WI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:50:20 -0400 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com> Subject: "Stinky Starter" Jay Spies asks if his yeast nutrient could be giving an ammonia smell to his starters; yes it is most likely the cause. The dose listed is 1 teaspoon for 1200 ml, that is perhaps a bit excessive. The typical dose on the simple yeast nutrients is 1 tsp/gallon, at that dosage for a starter of 1200 ml volume the proper amount would be just under 1/3 tsp., dropping to this amount would help minimize the odor. The dose of DME is a bit more than I'd expect; Dave Logsdon of Wyeast recommends 5 to 6 Plato for yeast starters, this gives greater cell enumeration. This would be 60-72 grams, about 1/2 cup of DME. This at first seemed counterintuitive to me knowing that yeast multiply to a population of 1 million cells per degree Plato per milliliter, so a 1/2 density wort would produce 1/2 the yeast population, when I tried this method I did find that I got greater volumes of yeast in a shorter time. This was just a visual observation, not an actual count with a hemocytometer, but since I only work with 3 yeast strains and they all displayed the same behavior I don't think the volume increase was due to flocculation characteristics. Since I want my starters to produce high kraeusen quickly and produce lots of yeast I stick with this method; and besides I use 1/2 the amount of DME for starters. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:12:16 -0400 From: "Mike & Lynn Key" <flakeys at ibm.net> Subject: Re: Wind Screen Construction My windscreen was an 18-inch wide piece of aluminum flashing which I riveted into a tapered cone. The taper is narrow at the top and flares near the bottom. When properly done it should extend no more than two inches below your kettle. The bottom flare keeps the flashing away from direct contact with the burner's flame. I got the design from Karl Lutzen's and Mark Steven's book Brew Ware. They call it a heat shroud. My mistake was to extend the cone all the way to the ground. Don't do it! HBD's Steve Alexander's suggestion for converting an aluminum trash can into a windscreen sounds like a good idea. However, I would cut out legs for such a windscreen so that the intense heat near the ground is allowed to dissipate. Good luck and be sure to check your propane hose every so often. - ---- Cordially, R. Michael Key "Extremism in the pursuit of prudence is no vice"--Greasy Fingers, Chicago Gangsters "I stink, therefore I offend"--Da Card, Greasy Fingers' little brother - Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:22:13 -0400 From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu> Subject: Red Seal Ale recipe request Just had it on tap here in virginia for the first time. The bottled product was rather dissappointing. The real thing is great. Has anyone got a recipe that comes close? Or hints on what they use? Thanks for any help. Rick Pauly Charlottesville,VA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 11:24:49 -0500 From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net> Subject: Preventing excessive foaming while serving from kegs Greetings, I just started serving from kegs and have a question about reducing foaming. The beer I have kegged now is a Bavarian wheat, which is carbonated to about 3.5 volumes. To maintain that level, I have to keep about 27 PSI head pressure on the kegs at the 44F serving temperature. But, if I try to serve at that pressure all I get are glasses full of foam. So, each time I serve I've been bleeding off the pressure and then repressurizing to 2-3 PSI for serving, and then I pump it back up to 27 PSI to maintain the carbonation. My main concern about this process is that it takes too long to just serve a pint or two. Plus, I'm wasting a lot of CO2. FYI, I'm serving using a pretty generic picnic tap on about a 4' length of 3/16" ID beer line. Are there pressure reducing valves made for this problem? I'm certain there's got to be a better way of doing this. Thanks. - --Dave Humes Dave Humes >>humesdg1 at earthlink.net<< Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:20:47 -0500 From: "Robert D. Dittmar" <Robert.D.Dittmar at stls.frb.org> Subject: Kim Chee In HBD #2755, Steve Alexander wrote: Now my question - since nothing goes better with a hoppy ale on a hot summer day than Kim Chee (think chunky sauerkraut with tons of garlic and cheyenne) does anyone have a 'recipe' for this over-the-top Korean fermented vegetable food? I am also a big fan of kim chee, and have made it several times at home. As Steve mentioned in his post, again, this is not beer related, but making kim chee also involves fermentation. Steve is also correct about how well kim chee and beer go together. Please page down if you are uninterested in this topic. My recipe for kim chee is nowhere near as technical as Steve's for sauerkraut, although some of the technical aspects of cabbage fermentation that Steve discussed could well be applied here. For kim chee, I just take a head of Napa (Chinese) cabbage, quarter it, and sprinkle about a quarter cup of salt over the quarters. I allow the cabbage to sit for a few hours so that moisture is drawn from the cabbage. I julienne about a half-pound of root vegetables (I've used turnips, carrots, and Daikkon radish), julienne a leek or several green onions, chop garlic and ginger to taste, and mix the vegetables with about 2 tablespoons of cayenne pepper. I even toss in a julienned apple or pear occasionally. Rinse the cabbage quarters, stuff the julienned vegetables in between the cabbage leaves, and pack the quarters tightly into a crock or glass bowl. I cover the cabbage with just enough water to submerge it (although Steve's post makes me think I should use brine next time), and put a plate over the top to keep the cabbage under water. After that, I just leave the kim chee out on the kitchen counter to let it ferment. I believe that Koreans will allow fermentation to proceed for months, but I usually start snacking after a week or two. I would note that fermenting cabbage does tend to give off some, er, pungent aromas, so situate the kim chee with that in mind. Many types of cabbage are available in Asian markets, and all seem to work well for fermentation purposes. I've used mustard cabbage to make kim chee with excellent results. Rob Dittmar St. Louis, MO Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:57:00 -0700 From: Kyle_Druey at na.dole.com Subject: Chimay Red I need some advice from the collective on how to make Chimay Red (I don't want to make a clone, I want to make the actual beer!). Grist composition, mash schedule, yeast type, fermentation methods, maturation length, or anything else pertinent to making this brew. Thanks, Kyle Bakersfield, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 09:28:37 -0700 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net> Subject: Re. Metallurgical Question on Converted Kegs/ July 4th Brew >From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu> >Subject: Metallurgical question > I acidify my sparge water with phosphoric acid (works for me, YMMV). You said you have very hard water? I would only add acid if you had high alkalinity... > Since I've moved, I noticed that once I heat my sparge >water, and I end up with a film on top of my sparge water. It has a >metallic sort of look to it (reminds me vaguely of mica) and floats. When >the water has been all drained, this leaves a thin white film on the inside >of the keg. Sounds like calcium carbonate, although if you are still adding acid since the move, that should be dissolved. It is definitely not dissolved metal. Must be a salt of some sort. >Standard stainless keg with copper ring manifold. The keg >does show some changes in the bottom due to repeated heating with a jet >style burner adequate to propel a large vehicle down the road. What kind of changes? this could be bad. You dont want to overheat this kind of stainless steel. >Anyhow, does anybody have any idea what this film might be? Could it be >some of the oxide layer protecting the stainless that is somehow leached >off? Some other gunk? Never occurs in the mash or boil tuns. No. It has to be something from the water/acid combination, perhaps an insoluble sulfate, phosphate or carbonate. Sulfates and phosphates are generally soluble but depending on what you pH is, they may have formed a more insoluble complex. (this is pure conjecture) >Also, how about acid washing the stainless? I've got a gallon of muriatic >acid that I thought I would use to clean each of the kegs. Dilute the >muriatic acid and wash the kegs (proper eye/skin protective wear) and dry >them. How long should I leave them alone so they will passivate? No, NOT with muriatic acid. Muriatic is Hydrochloric Acid, which will take your protective oxides off the stainless faster than anything. If you want to acid wash your keg to get rid of that film, then use dilute phosphoric or Nitric. Nitric is preferred. If your film is just mineral scale, then try vinegar or Lime Away, these commercial products may do the trick and be a lot less detrimental to the steel. A week at indoor conditions will do the job of re-passivation after acid washing. John Palmer - metallurgist PS. Here is what I am brewing this weekend: Some Kind of Beer 8 lbs of Gambrinus Pale Ale Malt 1/2 lb Caravienna 1/4 lb Dark Munich Malt 1/4 lb HB Chocolate Malt Galena Hops for bittering Liberty Hops for Flavoring Homegrown Fuggles for Dry Hopping About 35 IBUs, 1.040 OG But! I am going to not sparge! Screw the lost fermentables, I am going to save a half hour and just use the first runnings. Brewing on the foreskin of technology here. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 10:24 PDT From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns) Subject: re:mash thickness Steve Alexanders excellent and Pedantic post regarding mash thickness and extractability rate, combined with earlier discussions about RIMS needing more water (ie thinner mashes) may help to answer why these RIMS guys get such high extraction numbers. Just synthesizing a few discussions. I'm planning on using a thinner mash next time to test this theory myself. I'm not a RIMS brewer. I've been using 1.0 to 1.25 qts/lb after reading somewhere that thicker mashes produce a maltier flavored beer. Charley (synthesizing thinnly) in N. Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:27:57 -0700 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com Subject: Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures Hi all, Erik says that he has not yet received a response about the consequences of storing kegged beer at high room temperature (70-80F, 21-27C). It's the same as storing bottled beer at that temperature: not good. The warm temperatures will accelerate the staling reactions that take place in all beers, regardless of packaging. I tried to do this a number of times, and it never worked. Either drink it now (have a party) or find a cold space in which to keep it. In the past I kept a keg cool by filling a large cooler with water, putting the keg in it, and putting 1-gallon jugs filled with frozen water in it to keep the temperature low. By changing the jugs 2 times each day (2 were in the freezer, 2 were in the water with the keg, so I would just swap them), I was able to maintain surprisingly low temperatures (mid 40's; ~7C)). Not ideal, but better than 80F! Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 14:05:06 -0500 From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: PU Opinion/Ammonia As the psycho-phisiological is on my mind these days, Steve's request for opnions of PU here and there caught my eye. Perception of beer flavor and aroma is similar to the perception of color in that it depends on a lot of factors besides just the taste and aroma of the beer. I have had PU in this country (most noably from a keg I got once) which was, in my opinion, better than that at the Prazdroj. I more recently had it (also draft) at an otherwise very nice restaurant in San Diego where it was pretty insipid. How do we explain this? Were the beers different? Possibly - brewed years apart. Obviously well handled at PU and in the case of the keg I liked, perhaps not so well handled in the San Diego case. How about the drinker - adapted to superb beers in Bohemia (Pilsner heaven) PU is arguably the best among lots of nearly as good beers but isn't so outstanding, i.e. it doesn't stand out so much, as it does in the US. On travel (Czech Republic, San Diego) the drinker was perhaps not so relaxed and well rested as he was in the comfort of his own house. None of the three tasting incidents resemble in the slightest the conditions (trained, calibrated panel in specially designed tasting rooms) that would pertain if a better than anecdotal answer to the question were wanted. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jay Spies is undoubtedly right in thinking the ammonia smell in his boiling starter wort is ammonia. Most of these products contains ammonium dihydrogen phosphate as a nitrogen source. Even at the relatively low pH of the wort some ammonium ion will convert to ammonia and be driven off by the heat. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:00:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net> Subject: Welcome lurkers and new posters! Lurkers, please feel welcome to join in! Welcome to these folks who hadn't posted before in 1998: - In #2750: William Macher, "Biggiebigg" (Jim Huskey), "Cruiser" (Nate Wahl), Greg T. Smith, Hans Geittmann. - In #2751: Dan McLaughlin, Christophe Frey, Alan Gilbert, Rick Theiner, Mary Ethridge, Linus Hall, Michael O. Hanson. - In #2752: Christopher W. Kafer, Jesse Krusemark, Kevin R. Martin, Chris Carolan, Brew Rat, Ari J. - In #2753: Andrzej Sadownik, J. Lonner, Karl Weisel. - In #2754: David Schmidthuber, "droot", Jerry Holcomb. - In #2755: just us old folks. And a big thank-you to those already posting, especially a big, warm, wet, sloppy one to Kyle Druey. Here's a paper towel, Kyle. In the first half of 1998*, we had 395 new posters (those who hadn't posted in 1997). Of those, 175 posted more than once, and 91 posted at least three times. 13 posted ten or more times. Of course, those who started late (say in June) have had less chance to repeat. Best, Sam Mize * figures based on analysis of 1997/1998 indexes. Only approximate. - -- Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:10:31 -0700 From: "Eric Moore (Select Group)" <a-emoore at microsoft.com> Subject: Over-carbonated barley wine I did the big brew and have a bottled batch of the big 10/20 barley wine. I opened one last night at room temperature and it quietly foamed up and out of the bottle. I'm concerned that by October I'll have gushers or bombs. Should I open them all and re-cap them, and if so do I try and get the foam out. Is there anything I can do? If it weren't a barley wine I would have probabaly drank them all by now, please help!! Thanks Eric Moore Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:15:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Hop picking/Heart of the Hops/Kubessa/teflon/malto-dextrin Well, it's been nearly a week and PaulN hasn't answered these questions, so I guess I'll take a shot at them... Jesse writes: >I am successfully growing my own hops in central Illinois. I have >three plants, each is doing quite well. One, however, and I'm not >sure of the variety, put on what seem to be full sized hops a few >weeks ago, while the others have only blooms. The hops are papery and >very fresh smelling. Are these ready for harvest? A perennial question (pardon the pun)... IDEALLY, you would like to keep the bines alive and pick the ripe hops periodically. When hops are ready for picking, they will be noticeably lighter in weight, the outer petals will take on a papery character, when you squeeze the flowers they will spring back rather than stay smushed (a technical term... sorry pedantophobes) and the lupulin at the base of each petal will be bright yellow (I've read people comparing it to the colour of the yellow highway dividing lines). If you can't pick as they ripen, you'll have to decide when to cut down the bine and pick. Over-ripe flowers start to turn brown at the edges and the lupulin starts to turn more orange. Most growers wait until a small percentage of the flowers begin to turn brown (check *every* day). *** George writes (jokingly at the end): Tom asks why some beers can be packaged in clear glass and not be skunked. Thanks to the magic of modern science there exists a product called "tetrahydro-iso-extract." It is isomerized hop extract that is light-proof. This extract will also improve foam stability. It is important to note that to make beer light-proof requires that no "normal" hops be used anywhere in the production process. Even the yeast must be free of "normal" hop iso-alpha acids. This must be what Miller was referring to as the "heart of the hops." Actually, just the opposite, ironically. The "Heart of the Hops" is what's left of the hop flowers after Miller removes most of the bittering agents to make their iso extract. The only beer they make from the "Heart of the Hops" (to the best of my knowledge) is "Miller Beer" with the red label, which (not surprisingly, if you have followed this thread) comes in cans and *BROWN* bottles. I've read where they use 4 times the normal amount of these "hops"... but that's probably still about 12 IBUs. *** George also writes: The Kubessa process is a mashing technique where the husks are separated from the rest of the grist and not added to the mash until just before vorlauf (recirculation). The goal of this is to minimize the amount of grain phenols that get into the wort. Kunze talks about this process a bit (a really small bit) in _Technology Brewing and Malting_, and says that it is seldom used. Why is it seldom used? Sounds like a good idea. If you were using a mash filter, you would not need the husks at all. Is this done? Does Kunze specifically say this is to minimize phenols? If not, where did you read that? In Malting and Brewing Science (Hough, et al), there is a table that shows polyphenol levels are very similar for wort made from regular and dehusked barley. I believe Steve Alexander posted a few months ago how most of the polyphenols are elsewhere in the barley corn, not in the husk. That table in MBS does, however, show that silicate levels are much lower in wort made from dehusked barley. *** Regarding teflon tape and washers, I have a few words of warning. Although teflon is rated to 400 or 500F, it can burn. I have a teflon washer behind the ball valve (on the outside of the pot) on a small pot I use for making large starters and it is singed a little on the edge that faces the burners (mere 12,000 BTU kitchen burners). While this may not be a problem to you or I, if you have any pet birds (parrots, budgies, etc.), smoking teflon will *kill* them. I've read where empty teflon cookware left on a burner has killed parrots. It seems to me that putting the washer on the *inside* of the kettle or laeuter tun would prevent the burning of the washer (just don't heat it empty) and perform the same function, no? *** JGORMAN writes: >Is dextrose sugar and malto dextrin the same? If they are not is malto >dextrin fully fermentable? Dextrose is glucose. It is 100% fermentable. Malto-dextrin is a mixture of fermentable sugars and unfermentable dextrins. There are a wide variety of sugar syrups and powders made by companies such as ADM, Staley, and Corn Products. Unless you get "DE" number on the package (I believe it stands for dextrose equivalent, but don't quote me on it), you really can't be certain of how fermentable it is. I do know that syrup labeled "DE 62" is also called "wort similar sugar" because it has close to the same distribution of sugars as wort. DE 62 will attenuate a little more than real wort because it doesn't have the proteins that wort has, so you can expect 80 or 90% apparent attenuation. The malto-dextrin I got from L.D.Carlson turns out to have only 16% apparent attenuation, so it is mostly dextrins and only slightly fermentable. 1 pound of this malto-dextrin in 5 gallons of beer will add 11 points (0.011) to the Original Gravity and about 9.3 points (0.0093) to the Final Gravity. *** Two highly questionable fouls against England, IMO. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 14:29:20 CDT From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: aerating starters When I make starters I oxygenate them every time I add more wort. What I don't know, though, is if oxygenating after the sugars are consumed does any good. Will the yeast use any oxygen in the liquid after the sugars are consumed? I like to wait for the yeast to settle out and decant the liquid before pitching and wondered if oxygenating just before doing this was a waste of oxygen or if it would help strengthen the yeast for the pitch. What I usually do is decant the liquid, add fresh wort, oxygenate, then pitch. Of course, then there is sugar available. John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 98 14:34:24 CDT From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: RE: basement brewing Hans Geittmann wrote: >I rember seeing questions posted about the safety of brewing in basements, >using a gas fired burner. Unfortunately, I can't remember any of the >answers from people who actually tried it, only those cautionary responses >about CO levels. SO, anyone out there successfully brewing with propane in >their basement? Any suggestions about ventilation or other safety issues? This sounds ominous. Has anyone ever heard again from those proposing to brew in their basements using propane? Does anyone read the obits? John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 15:56:11 est From: paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli) Subject: Hitting mash Temps Hans in 2754 is having probs. hitting 158F at mash-in. My SOP at mash-in has been to heat the mash water to 180F, then pump a couple gallons of it into the tun. Once the false bottom is covered by the water, I start adding in the grain. I keep the pump on the whole time til all the grain is mixed in. I don't sweat how many qts. of H20 per pound of grain (never have). Just mix it til the consistency seems "right". I guess this is where the art vs. science comes in. I don't even bother measuring the temp. after mash-in. When I started all -graining in the past I used to take the temp. and it always was right arounf 156-160F. So now I just make sure the water is 180F. If I wanted a drier, less chewy beer I guess I would check the temp after mash-in and just stir it a couple minutes til it dropped into the low 150s. Mike Spinelli, Cherry Hill NJ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:03:44 -0400 From: "LARSONC%DOM13.DOPO7" <Erik.Larson at MS01.DO.treas.sprint.com> Subject: Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures -Reply Date: 07/01/1998 03:54 pm (Wednesday) From: C. Erik Larson To: EX.MAIL("George_De_Piro at berlex.com"),EX.MAIL."post@hbd.org" Subject: Prolonged storage of beer at warm temperatures -Reply Thanks for the reply to my question about dopplebock storage, George D.P. Whlie my original question was as not so specifically worded, I was wondering whether higher gravity beers and darker beers would fair better under high temperature storage than than lower gravity, paler beers? Would ales necessarily fair better than lagers? Given that I have been very careful to avoid HSA and oxidation, what will my dopplebock's shelf-life be at 75F? Again, thanks. Erik Larson (erik.larson at treas.sprint.com) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:06:09 EDT From: JPullum127 at aol.com Subject: extract choice I have a achance to buy bulk malt extract syrup, either alexanders,or muntons at essentially the same price. I have used both in the past and have been pleased with the results. anyone have thoughts on choosing one over the other? Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:20:19 +1000 From: Jon Bovard <jonbovard at geocities.com> Subject: Im soo sick of trub in my ferment! Greetings to the brewing collective. We all know that excessive trub in the ferment causes staling, haze and decreased heat retention. My Hero, Noonan quotes in brewing lager beer that a good hot (and cold) break is all for nothing if excessive break makes its way into the ferment. My system involves a converted keg with a 3/4inch hole approximately 4inches from the floor in the side, complete with ball valve etc. I use the worlds longest immersion chiller to cool the brew. I usuall end up with an awesome hot break and would otherwise be producing (IMHO) clear beers if it wasnt for that trub!! Not only clarity is affected but the taste is somewhat Trubby (if thats a word?) I usually use 80-100% pellets in the boil and even though these settle below the level of the "drain" they always make it in excess amounts. I tried the Copper scrub trick yesterday and managed to clog it at around 1/2 way with loads and loads of trub etc. Im woed to try whirlpooling as I have my doubts whether this will create excessive turbulence and trub mixing also. Im not confident enough in my sanitation to attempt to transfer Cooled wort from a "settling tank" fermenter to another fermenter as advocated by some texts. And No Im not going to get a 400 buck cylindroconical welded for me either!! Any advice or enouragement on these or other methods that anyone may use..and yes Im very open to criticisms about my theories. BIG cheers!! Jon in Trubble in Brisbane Australia Home of the remaining DUFF beer cans Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 23:16:18 -0400 From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> Subject: basement brewing Hans Geittmann asked if any of us brew in our basement. I have been doing so for the last five plus years, using a cache cooker (propane)from Northern Hydraulics (apprx 130k btus). I open three windows (the small, basement variety) on three different walls of my basement. The brewpot is under one of the windows, and I have a fan fixed in front of that window. The steam from the boil rises up and is blown out the window. I figure the draw from the fan helps fresh air to be sucked in the other two windows. I keep a CO detector a few feet away; it never goes off, so now and then I push the test button to make sure it's functional (it is). The other main danger besides CO poisoning would be a leaky tank/fittings that could fill your basement when you're not down there; the gas could reach a pilot light on your furnace or water heater and boom! I always turn the gas off at the tank when I am done brewing. I know this subject has come up before, and there are a lot of people who will argue "don't do it" ( and I respect that opinion), and I also know there have been a number of people who have posted that they do it with no problems. My outlook is if you take proper precautions you should be okay. I won't argue with anyone on the subject because I know there is a risk. If you're accident prone, don't do it :^) Return to table of contents
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