---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  pitching temps (Samuel Mize)
  Pear cider ("David Johnson")
  Re: IM/scaling/high FG ("Jim Busch")
  RE: How do I remove TSP stains from my carboy? ("Kensler, Paul")
  Styles - Munich Helles vs. Helles Bock? ("Kensler, Paul")
  IM / glass carboys (Matthew Arnold)
  Tranfering Corny to Corny (Badger Roullett)
  "Benchmark" IPA's (Dan Cole)
  N. California Coast ("Adams, Steven")
  AHA 1998 NHC Final Results ("Brian Rezac")
  Pilsen Malt ("Kuhl, Brian S")
  Phil's Phalse Bottom (ale)
  Dry yeast amounts (Samuel Mize)
  Reply - Pitching Temps (Marc Chumney)
  Re: Pyrex carboys (Dave Humes)
  Brewery Finance 101 (Kyle Druey)
  pyrex carboys...plastic carboys ("phil grossblatt")
  Triple (Kyle Druey)
  hoppy beers (Spencer W Thomas)
  Force Carbonating ("Marc Battreall")
  Perry ("David R. Burley")
  Fundamentals of Stainless Steel Passivation (MAB)
  fusel and ester flavors -Tom Barnet (Laurel Maney)
  high temp ferment w/3068 / decoctions / IBU perceptions (George_De_Piro)




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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:35:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: pitching temps

> From: hollen at woodsprite.com
> Subject: Pitching Temps???
> 
> Today ... my CF chiller only managed to cool the wort to 82F.
> Well, I pitched anyway.  As normal, within an hour, I had activity in
> my blowoff hose.  So, the higher than normal pitching temperature
> appears to have been OK for the yeast.

Sure, the yeast love it.  They'll work fast and create many unusual
and exciting flavors for you, esters and higher alcohols, which is why
we usually try to pitch cooler.

The issue is not killing yeast -- that starts around 110-120F, I
think -- it's flavors.  OTOH, some people pitch a little warmer
because they want a fruity, flowery ale.  82F is a little higher than
I've seen recommended, even for that, I think you're likely to get
some harsh higher alcohols.  This batch may require a little more
age than usual to mellow out.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: "Winkler, Jeff" <jeffw at finall.com>
> Subject: How do I remove TSP stains from my carboy?

Try rubbing it with a Sam Adams label...

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:44:45 -0500
From: "David Johnson" <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: Pear cider

Charley,
	Paul Correnty's  "The Art of Cidermaking" has the following recipe:

5 gal of sweet apple cider and pear juice (50/50 blend)
5 cups cane or corn sugar
acid blend and tannin powder
lager or wine yeast

He goes on to suggest  that 1 tsp of tannin would be about right. 
My comments must be taken with the grain of salt that I haven't made this
recipe. Standard cider rules still apply. You want to keep your OG above
1.060 if you plan much storage. Boiling sets pectin. Use pectinase if you
want a clear beverage. I use it even if I don't boil. I am beginning to
come to the realization that sulfiting might be a better way to go (if your
drinkers are not sensitive). If you sulfite, don't use a beer yeast they
appear to be intolerant of sulfites. Lalvin has some good wine yeasts (D-47
seems to be popular with the meadmakers, and champagne is used in a lot of
commercial ciders). On the Lalvin website ( http://www.lallemand.com/brew
), they have a winemaking consultant(Clayton Cone) who answers questions
(promptly) and is willing to talk about Mead and cider (although these are
not his areas of expertise a lot applies).

I didn't get the idea that you wanted to make perry but info on that is
available on "The real Cider and Perry page". Making real perry sounds
interesting and there is a good article there on making it. If you are
interested on growing perry trees, I have info on an US source. Other cider
info is at "Cyder Space". There are probably links at the Brewery. There is
also the cider digest where someone might also have some suggestions for
you. It is run by the eminent Dick Dunn. As Below:
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider at talisman.com.
Use cider-request@ talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
    When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
    message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available for anonymous FTP at ftp.stanford.edu
    in pub/clubs/homebrew/cider.

Hope this helps!
Dave



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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:54:24 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Re: IM/scaling/high FG

Regarding IM and its utility in large/small scale brewing and 
filtering:

In general at home I dont use IM, but I have been meaning to try some 
BreakBrite soon.  For larger brewers who filter, IM can be important 
to use, especially in bigger OG beers, for the very reason Jim 
mentions, it reduces the particulate load on the filter and you get 
more life out of your sheets and/or DE.  By combining cold 
conditioning to reduce the yeast load cell counts (and of course help 
to precipitate proteins, yet another good reason to use a horizontal 
conditioning tank as opposed to a tall Uni) and IM in the kettle you 
will extend the filter life with most beers.

Joe responds to the scaling up issue (and I didnt mean to imply that 
Joe's beer had stability problems, in fact Ive heard all kinds of 
good words about the beers of Olde Newbury) and mentions how some 
notable brewers have made a go at it.  New Belgium in Ft Collins is 
one that comes to mind as perhaps the most successful small operation 
to exist since the founding of Sierra Nevada.  I visited Jeff at NB 
in '91 when he was still using his tiny 4 BBl home/basement system.  
(in fact in this very basement I got the connection for the fabber in 
Oregon who made my kettle and mash tun).  This was a very creative 
system, fabbed locally in Denver.  His fermenters were square sided 
SS with "cones" made from triangle cuts! Not a typical cone at all.  
It worked and made good beer and I saw on Usenet that someone is 
still brewing in this in Co!  All of that said, Jeff was successful 
because he used this as a springboard and has installed 2-3 breweries 
since then.  His latest is, I believe, a Steinecker from Germany, one 
of the most sophisticated sudhaus' produced.  He has also hired all 
kinds of talent to keep up with the production.  A real business 
success story, but one that has consumed Jeff with constant 
re-engineering of his facility for the better part of the decade.  
That said, I believe a large part of his success is due to a single 
brand that has enormous appeal, Fat Tire Ale.  Once again, make a 
brand that has a following and then build the brewery to fit.  Hard 
part is to survive as you grow.

I responded to Charlie offline regarding his high FG Ofest, but to 
summarize: be sure to rest in the 144-146 range and then do a forced 
ferment to be sure of the true max FG.

Prost!

Jim Busch




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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:07:25 -0600
From: "Kensler, Paul" <paul.kensler at wilcom.com>
Subject: RE: How do I remove TSP stains from my carboy?

Jeff,
Are you sure the film was caused by the TSP?  I have had this problem
when soaking equipment in bleach-water solutions.  The nearest I was
able to figure out, is that it is some sort of fine chloride / carbonate
precipitate.  At any rate, if what you have is the same, all you need to
do is soak it in an acidic solution (I used distilled white vinegar) for
a few minutes, and follow up with a bottle brush.  The acid dissolves it
completely.

For what its worth, I have never had a problem with TSP leaving a
deposit or film.


Paul Kensler
Plano, TX


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:24:01 -0600
From: "Kensler, Paul" <paul.kensler at wilcom.com>
Subject: Styles - Munich Helles vs. Helles Bock?

HBD,
I recently brewed my first lager with my brew pal, Eric Schoville.
Having much less experience with lagers than ales, I have a
style-related question.

What is the difference between a Munich Helles and a Helles Bock, OTHER
THAN the differences in OG and IBU?  Specifically, are there any flavor
differences independent of the difference in gravity?

We attempted to brew a Munich Helles last weekend, but overshot the OG
(hitting 1.066 instead of 1.046).  I decided to keep the brew as is
(Eric diluted down to the target gravity), and went back to the
reference books to find out what defined a Helles Bock.  According to
what I read in Daniels' Designing Great Beers and Noonan's New Brewing
Lager Beer, the recipes for both beers are very similar (pils, carapils,
munich malts, noble hops, neutral or Bavarian lager yeast).  So what
makes a Helles Bock unique, instead of just being a high-gravity Munich
Helles?

Our recipe was (18 gallons)
24# pils
4.5# carapils
3.75# munich
Single decoction mash.
Approx. 30 IBUs using Hallertauer
Wyeast 2206


Thanks,
Paul Kensler
Decocting in 103 degree weather.


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 16:03:36 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: IM / glass carboys

Scott Murman made some interesting observations:

>I had a similar response as Steve when reading Jim's comments.  While
>it may be true that IM is a band-aid, it's a band-aid that many
>homebrewers need.  If we were using commercial systems with tall grain
>beds, and computer-controlled perfect sparges, and making the same
>batch time and again, then I'm sure many common HB practices would be
>different.  But we're homebrewers, and we use pizza pans with holes
>punched in them, and check our sparges during commercials, and are
>half-crocked by the end of a brew day.  We need our band-aids to make
>up for poor brewhouse techniques, because our brewhouse is usually the
>back half of a garage or a moldy basement.  Personally, I've made beer
>with and without IM, and sometimes I think it's made a difference
>removing some stuff that might later be soluble in my beer, so I try
>to use it when I can.  Because I don't have a perfect sparge.  

At the risk of sounding like a "me too"er, I've got to agree with Scott. I love
all-grain brewing. Love it, I tell you! But I just can't convince myself to
jump through the hoops to get the picture-perfect, spot-on-pH mash and sparge
(if that were even possible). The choice (for me) is: do I a) want to spend all
my time hovering over my Gott, or b) relax, etc., and add a tsp of IM to the
boil. I choose b). Others might disagree with me, but that's where I've chosen
to draw the line for my setup.

>The question I think is more relevant is "Can Irish Moss cause any
>damage to beer?", not "Is it beneficial?"

Can it cause damage? I know it could in massive amounts, but the old 1 tsp/five
gallons?

Is my beer ruined? Do I need to brew in plaid? Would I need Scottish Moss then?
Peat Moss? Kate Moss? (Sorry, the caffeine is getting to me.)

>I would love to primarily (pun intended)
>use plastic or stainless, but I then I couldn't see what's going on.

I've been using a plastic bucket as a primary for the past several batches
since my six gallon carboy had an unfortunate (and fatal) confrontation with
gravity and a cement floor. I like the bucket all right, but I miss seeing the
action. I miss seeing the little bubbles of CO2 rise to the top, the craggy
head, the grand symphony that is fermentation. Gotta get me a new glass carboy.

Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:20:17 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Tranfering Corny to Corny

Greeting Beer Fanatics...

I recently entered the world of kegging and love it.  it takes a while to
get the feel for the equipment, but once you do it is Cool.

The other day i tried to transfer from keg to keg to put the 2 half empty
kegs of the same type of beer together for easy transport.  I had teh local
homebrew shop (evergreen in seattle, brett is the man!! of course no
affliation, yadda) put together a out-to-out hose for me.

I took it home, and hooked it up.  In applying pressure i had mixed results,
and had problems getting it to flow.  fiddling with it i finally got it, but
it me a while to figure it out..

can any help me with experience in the matter?  pressure settings. which
kegs to vent pressure on, etc. etc.


thanks in advance.
*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger

Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html

In the SCA: 
Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn



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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:56:27 -0400
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: "Benchmark" IPA's

I have been charged to bring to our next brewclub meeting commercial IPA's
for examples of the style (prior to our brewing and bringing our own).

Those of you who are more trained (any BJCP'ers out there?), what 3 or 4
commercial brands are prime examples of the style. I also smuggled from
England a couple of IPA's; I don't expect them to be what we think of as
IPA's over here in the states, but they are there for contrast and discussion.

If you don't want to tie up the list with this discussion, just e-mail me
directly and I will summarize for the list.

Also, special thanks to everyone who recommended beer places to visit
during my trip to England last week. Unfortunately, I had very little time
to seek out specific places, but no one mentioned to me how easy it is to
find good pubs in England. Spending time in 3 cities/towns (Lancaster,
Edinburgh and London) we were never more than 50 feet from a pub with at
least a dozen fresh beers on handpumps.

Thanks again,
Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA
dcole at roanoke.infi.net

P.S. Has anyone seen my discussion with the editor in BYO magazine
regarding the validity of HSA? Am I wrong, or is he giving bad advice re:
splashing of hot wort?



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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:01:54 -0400
From: "Adams, Steven" <paa3765 at exmail.dscp.dla.mil>
Subject: N. California Coast

Friends:

I'll be driving down the California coast from Oregon to San Francisco
soon.  (Leaving Friday, Jul. 31)  Please send recommendations for beer
stops or other interesting sites.  Nothing on the WWW seems to suffice.
Oregon has its own  brewery and brew pub map.

Thanks,

SA


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:19:45 -0600
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: AHA 1998 NHC Final Results

Here is the list of winners of the AHA 1998 National Homebrew
Competition.

AHA Category 1:  Barley Wine
Gold Medal - Dave Cowie - Nevada City, NV
Silver Medal - Ron Raike - Orlando, Fl
Bronze Medal - Ross Kahn - Boulder, CO

AHA Category 2:  Belgian and French -Style Ale:
Gold Medal - Mark Tomusaik - Boulder, CO
Silver Medal - Ted Manahan - Albany, OR
Bronze Medal - Edward Bloom - Gibsonia, PA

AHA Category 3:  Belgian-Style Lambic:
Gold Medal - Brian Bliss - Fremont, CA
Silver Medal - Tony De Marse - Greeley, CO
Bronze Medal - Charlie Gottenkieny - Dallas, TX

AHA Category 4:  Mild and Brown Ale:
Gold Medal - Joseph Hughes - Jupiter, FL
Silver Medal - Jack Sykes - Overland Park, KS
Bronze Medal - Dave Shaffer - Lafayette, CO

AHA Category 5:  English-Style Pale Ale:
Gold Medal - Thomas J. O'Connor III M.D. - Rockport, ME
Silver Medal - Dave Shaffer - Lafayette, CO
Bronze Medal - David Welch - Long Beach, CA

AHA Category 6:  American Style Ale
Gold Medal - Ken Brown - Fremont, CA
Silver Medal - Dan Morley - Calgary, AB - Canada
Bronze Medal - Chris Lavoie - Glenmont, NY

AHA Category 7:  English-Style Bitter:
Gold Medal - Bill Clark & Steven Olson - Duluth, MN
Silver Medal - Paul Fiorino - Falls Church, VA
Bronze Medal - John B. Avard, D.C., Chris Columbus, Mathew W. Goody &
Paul D. Hallock - Manchester, NH

AHA Category 8:  Scottish-Style Ale:
Gold Medal - Charles Cope - Alto, MI
Silver Medal - Mike Kilian - Fenton, MO
Bronze Medal - Harrison Gibbs - Los Angeles, CA

AHA Category 9:  Porter:
Gold Medal - Kent Brehm & Bruce Hammell - Hamilton, NJ
Silver Medal - Terry Durant & Gary Durant - Westminster, CO
Bronze Medal - Jeffrey Swearengin - Tulsa OK

AHA Category 10:  English and Scottish Style:
Gold Medal - Lester Lewis - Salem, OR
Silver Medal - Bradley A. Maxfield - New Berlin, WI
Bronze Medal - Dirk Bridgedale - Concord, CA

AHA Category 11:  Stout:
Gold Medal - Mike Frost & Mike Kowal - Addison, IL
Silver Medal - Mark Deorio - Bridgeport, PA
Bronze Medal - Joe Formanek - Lisle, IL

AHA Category 12:  German-Style Bock:
Gold Medal - Art Beall - Hudson, OH
Silver Medal - Pat Bannon - Jefferson, PA
Bronze Medal - George Dietrich - Shelby Twp., MI

AHA Category 13:  German-Style Dark Lager:
Gold Medal - Jack Willis - Windham, OH
Silver Medal - Art Beall - Hudson, OH
Bronze Medal - Ed Miles - Olathe, KS

AHA Category 14:  German-Style Light Lager:
Gold Medal - Dave Shaffer - Lafayette, CO
Silver Medal - Richard Dwenger - Wentzville, MO
Bronze Medal - Randy Norman - Madera, CA

AHA Category 15:  Classic Pilsener:
Gold Medal - Russ Bee - Rockwall, TX
Silver Medal - George Fix - Arlington, TX
Bronze Medal - Michael  Weaver - Cincinnati, OH

AHA Category 16:  American-Style Lager:
Gold Medal - John Tantillo & Susan Tantillo - Wilmington, NC
Silver Medal - Thomas Plunkard - Warren, MI
Bronze Medal - Bill Pierce - Des Moines, IA

AHA Category 17:  Vienna/Marzen/Octoberfest:
Gold Medal - Brian Beckmann - Andover, NJ
Silver Medal - Thomas J. O'Connor III M.D. - Rockport, ME
Bronze Medal - Cory Buennning - Jackson, Wy

AHA Category 18:  German-Style Ale:
Gold Medal - Jeremy Price - Covington, KY
Silver Medal - Mike Riddle - San Rafael, CA
Bronze Medal - Dean Fikar - Ft Worth, TX

AHA Category 19:  German-Style Wheat Beer:
Gold Medal - Tom Bell - Parker, CO
Silver Medal - Art Beall - Hudson, OH
Bronze Medal - Scott Boeke - North Augusta, SC

AHA Category 20:  Smoked Beer:
Gold Medal - Bob Johnson - Tewksbury, MA
Silver Medal - Peter Johnson - Santa Barbera, CA
Bronze Medal - Randy Drwinga - Chandler, AZ

AHA Category 21:  Fruit and Vegetable Beer:
Gold Medal - Garrett Luedloff & Tim Moran - Fort Smith, AR
Silver Medal - Dan Kasen - Chicago, IL
Bronze Medal - Dennis Waltman & Paul Waltman - Atlanta, GA

AHA Category 22:  Herb and Spice Beer:
Gold Medal - Dennis Waltman & Paul Waltman - Atlanta, GA
Silver Medal - Kenneth (Rob) Clucas, Randy Meharg & Madeline Burns -
Overland Park, KS
Bronze Medal - Deb Nelson & Frank Nelson - Apple Balley, MN

AHA Category 23:  Specialty and Experimental:
Gold Medal - Ichiri Fujiura - Tokyo, Japan
Silver Medal - Tom Morrow - Hamilton Branch, CA
Bronze Medal - Tom Stelman - Utica, MI

AHA Category 24:  California Common Beer:
Gold Medal - Bob Thompson - Murrieta, CA
Silver Medal - Tom Ierardi - Skanneateles, NY
Bronze Medal - Brian Cole - Black Mountain, NC

AHA Category 25:  Traditional Mead and Braggot:
Gold Medal - Susan Ruud - Harwood, ND
Silver Medal - Robert Ring - Caldwell, ID
Bronze Medal - Ken Schramm & Dan Mcconnell - Troy, MI

AHA Category 26:  Fruit and Vegetable Mead:
Gold Medal - Ron Badley - Reno, NV
Silver Medal - Thomas J. O'Connor III M.D. - Rockport, ME
Bronze Medal - Robert Wikstrom - Derby, KS

AHA Category 27:  Herb and Spice Mead:
Gold Medal - Kathleen Lotz - Quincy, IL
Silver Medal - John Slusher - Glen Burnie, MD
Bronze Medal - Gunther Jensen - Kagel Canon, CA

AHA Category 28:  Cider:
Gold Medal & 1998 Cider Maker of the Year - Gloria Franconi - Red
Hook, NY
Silver Medal - Frank Salt - Staten Island, NY
Bronze Medal - Fred Sterner - E. Freetown, MA

1998 Mead Maker of the Year
Ron Badley - Reno, NV  (2nd year in a row)

1998 Homebrew Club of the Year
Capitol Brewers - Salem, OR

1998 Homebrewer of the Year
Ichiri Fujiura - Tokyo, Japan

Congratulations to all!

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO  80302
303 447-0816, ext. 121
brian at aob.org        http://beertown.org





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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:10:00 -0700
From: "Kuhl, Brian S" <brian.s.kuhl at intel.com>
Subject: Pilsen Malt

Hello Brewers,
I will be making a wheat beer soon and want to try something new. I want 
to use pilsen malt instead of my usual Maris Otter. Are there any 
pitfalls of differences that I should be aware of between these two 
malts? Can pilsen malt be run as a single infusion mash without issues? 
Here is my planned malt bill...
3 lb. pilsen
2 lb. Munich
7 lb. wheat malt
TIA,
Brian


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:29:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: ale at cisco.com
Subject: Phil's Phalse Bottom

Scott Murman wrote:
| The issue of how to keep the phloating bottom in place is making the
| rounds again. . . .  The best way to make use of a phloating bottom, IMO,
| is to put it in the garbage.  If you're really worried about the $$, ask
| for a refund; I've heard Listerman Inc. stands by their products.  Jumping
| through hoops to make something that was poorly designed in the first
| place workable, is like trying to run a $3k computer with Windows.  Uhh,
| whoops.  Nevermind.

It's easy to say that the false bottom is "poorly designed", but that is
simply not true.  That size you bought is just not big enough to fit in
the Gott 10 gallon cooler correctly.  The design is proven.  I had one
(same exact design, only smaller) that fit perfectly snugly in my 5 gallon
Gott and worked like a champ!  I was extremely happy with it.

But I moved on to a 10 gallon cooler and found that the largest false
bottom that was available at my local HB shop wasn't big enough.  Fine,
all I really need to do is keep it from floating, and I'm sure I'll be
happy for years to come.  I'm not going to throw it away, or equate the
thing to Windows (isn't that the worst form of slander? ;-).

Is there one available that fits correctly in a 10 Gallon Gott?  If so,
point me at it; I'll buy it.  If not, I'll weight mine down, thank you.

 -Alan


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:43:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: Dry yeast amounts

Scott Murman says it's best to pitch two packets of dry yeast, or make a
starter.  He's probably right -- I generally use Edme (gasp) which comes
in a larger packet.

The original poster was building a small starter, but not letting it work
for more than a couple of hours.  To get any colony growth it should go
overnight, at least.  Also, he should use malt extract instead of sugar.

Jorge, for some notes on building a starter, see the rec.crafts.brewing
FAQ, questions 24 and 30.  Also, "How to Brew Your First Beer" by John
Palmer.  Both are in the library section of the Brewery web site:

  http://www.brewery.org

These assume you are starting with a small liquid culture.  For dry
yeast, rehydrate and then pitch into the starter; also, use at least
a half-liter starter from the beginning.

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:02:31 -0400
From: Marc Chumney <Marc.Chumney at rich.frb.org>
Subject: Reply - Pitching Temps

Dion Hollenbeck asked about abnormally high pitching temperatures. 
Being a brewer in here in central Virginia for the past two years, I have
had troubles keeping temperatures under control.  I try and pitch
between 70 and 75, however after pitching I have noticed the
temperatures rise into the mid to upper 70 and once as high as 82 for
several days (A/C broke). The results have been very bad.  I have
experienced some very strong, bad aftertastes which I attribute to the
high temps.  I have been able to keep the temps between 65 and 72 in
the fall, winter, and early spring and have made some wonderful beers.

I have had success in lowering the fermenting temperatures by putting
the carboy in a pan full of cold water and draping a towel over it so the
towel soaks up the water.  The problem I had with this is that
condensation formed on the bottom of the pan, and really messed up the
hardwood floor (but I did get some good beer!).

Anyway, just my experience.
Marc Chumney 


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:05:30 -0500
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pyrex carboys

Another point to consider with running boiling wort into the carboy
is shrikage of the wort on cooling and the associated "suck-back"
through the air lock.  You can be fairly certain that whatever's in
your air lock will wind up in the beer with that much cooling in the
carboy.  You could leave out the air lock for the first several
hours, but that rather defeats the sanitation advantage of running
boiling wort into the carboy.  I suppose you could attach a filter to
the carboy so that contaminated air can't reach the wort, but now
it's getting too complicated.  
Dave Humes                             >>humesdg1 at earthlink.net<<




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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:43:29 -0700
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Brewery Finance 101

>...about a year+ ago.  At that time it was possible to contract
>brew beer for less than it cost A-B to produce !!  This was before
>BostonBeer(Sam Adams) bought several good sized facilities so that
>equation may no longer hold...

I am sure this equation still holds.  The small contract brewer doesn't
have AB's overhead sucking precious $ away from operating earnings.  AB
has to pay all those accountants, financial analysts, HR folks,
researchers, etc. etc., just to produce one drop of beer.

>but still the point is that production capacity isn't the limiting
>factor in making a success in the beer market today.  Instead
>production capacity is going begging because few brewers can figure
>out how to design and market products for distribution very far 
>beyond their local micro facility.

And this is the critical point.  If you develop the distribution
channels you can then "expand it and they will come".  Most micros seem
to do just the opposite, build the capacity and then try to find a home
for it.

>the available evidence. "the bigboys do it" really isn't an argument
>grounded in fact. They undoubtedly do "it" for a good reason, but
>without the reasoning and background behind it you cannot apply their
>results in another environment like HB.

Rest assured that the megas do it because of $$$.

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:46:44 -0600
From: "phil grossblatt" <philgro at swcp.com>
Subject: pyrex carboys...plastic carboys

 Yes,the Pyrex ones are pretty expensive- a 5 gallon one is around 
130$ (of course,these scientific supply places sell a regular glass 
carboy for about 40$...),but anyway...
  browsing through some catalogs I noticed many shapes and 
sizes of autoclavable plastic ones for 40-50$,some with spigots at 
the bottom.I'm assuming if they are autoclavable,you could put 
boiling wort in them,and also possibly sanitize them with boiling 
water.Thought someone might find that usefull... 


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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:51:41 -0700
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Triple

>Attention everyone: "Tripel" has only one P.  Look at a Westmalle
>label.  Only New Belgium's "Trippel" has two Ps and that may have
>been intentional.  It seems like a half dozen posters have written
>it with two Ps in the last month.

Attention AlK:  Grimbergen spells "Tripel" as T-R-I-P-L-E!

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:16:45 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: hoppy beers

Coupla digests ago, someone asked about hoppy beers along I-80 to
Michigan.  Of course if you're really coming into MI, it'll be I-94 at
that point.  Anyway, along the I-94 corridor, or not TOO far off, I
recommend, from personal experience:

New Holland Brewing - Mad Hatter - A very nice IPA dry-hopped with
Centennial hops. Holland, MI, 'natch.

Kalamazoo Brewing ("Bells") - Two Hearted Ale, if they've got it on
tap (it's a Winter seasonal, so they may not).  This beer rocks!  In
Kalamzazoo, of course.

Michigan Brewing Co. - IPA - Well, it's actually on I-96 at the
Webberville exit.  This was easily the hoppiest beer I tasted at the
Michigan Brewers' Guild SummerFest last Saturday.  It was like hop
juice.

Brewbakers - Pacific Pale Ale - An American pale ale, dry hopped to
within an inch of its life with Cascades.  If you're lucky they'll
have it on a hand pump at the brewery.  In Ann Arbor.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

P.S. If you're coming all the way to Ann Arbor, let us know and we'll
arrange a little pub crawl.  We've only got 2 brewpubs and a micro, so
I can't promise more than about 18 beers to taste.  Plus homebrew, of
course. 



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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:16:28 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Force Carbonating

Hello All,

Just wanted to give a bit of testimony on a procedure that I recently used
to force carbonate a Corny keg full of an India Pale Ale I brewed. In the
past, I had carbonated kegs by either priming it with a 1/2 cup of corn
sugar and letting it sit idle for a week or so at 70-75F, or force
carbonating it by shaking it vigorously while applying a predetermined
amount of CO2 pressure based on a chart that I have listing CO2 volumes
desired for a given temperature.
Well, I came across a new method (new to me anyway) at Robert Arguello's web
page and decided to give it a try. It looked simple enough and if it didn't
work I figured the worse case would be that I would have to do it my way
again. The results were great and worked just as Robert advertised!
The only drawback is that if you want clear beer, you might need to wait an
extra day or two for the beer to settle out. I did the procedure two days
ago and the beer is now pretty clear and will more than likely get clearer.
But the carbonation level is superb with a dense rocky, creamy head that I
have never been able to achieve before using my old methods. He recommends
doing the procedure for 4-4.5 minutes which would probably work fine for
most ales. I did it for 5.5 minutes (exactly) and have a nice stream of
rising bubbles that surround the glass.

Get your copy of this procedure at Robert's web page at:
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/carb.htm

(Standard statements apply: Not affiliated, YMMV, All the above is IMHO)

PS. Thanks Robert!!

Have a nice day!

Marc
=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:49:57 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Perry

Brewsters:

Been trying got catch up on HBD but what with two major parties the last
two weekends, kids home, etc. I don't have much time to comment.  Dick
Dunn's excellent  dissertation on Perry omitted what I consider to be
critical with pear fermentation and that is to treat every 5 gallons of
juice with 1/8 tsp of potassium metabisulfite immediately after pressing.
 

Failure to do so or if at any time the juice is transferred will result 
in
what the Brits call "Pear Drops". We call it finger nail polish remover
aroma.

When I lived in Britain in the late 60s there was a product on the market
 (
maybe still is) called "Baby Chams" which was fizzy perry and very tasty.
 I
did taste it out of curiosity, even though a real man wouldn't want to be

seen drinking this in public, since the bottle was tiny and had the 
picture
of this cute little lamb on the label to appeal to the ladies.  8^)


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:41:29 -0400
From: MAB <mabrooks at erols.com>
Subject: Fundamentals of Stainless Steel Passivation

Having been responsible for one of the numerous stainless/chlorine 
threads that have been beaten to death by now, I would like to change 
the subject slightly and discuss ways to protect and repassify stainless 
steel, assuming someone does use chlorine to sanitize Stainless Steel. 
Even if you use Iodophor you should still repassify, I will give an 
example of why later.  I will occasionally quote from an article on 
"Passivation in High Purity Water Systems" written by Patrick H. Banes 
in the "Journal of Ultrapure Water, 1998".  

Passivation of a Stainless Steel surface is esential to maximize 
corrosion resistance of that metal.  1) what exactly is a passive 
surface, 2) how is it achieved, and 3) how is it maintained? 

1) Formation of a uniform oxidzed surface that resists corrosion is the 
goal of passivation.  When discussing austenitic stainless steels, the 
term "passivation" is used to indicate "a chemically inactive surface 
condition that is obtained by oxidation of the metal surface".

2) The passivation of stainless steel is performed chemically or 
electro-chemically at the factory and it is esential to maximize the 
corrosion resistance that certain metals offer.

3) "Passive surfaces can be  maintained naturally when exposed to an 
oxidizing environment.  Natural sources of oxygen include air, aerated 
water, and other oxidizing atmospheres.   Beside naturally occuring 
passivation, chemical (nitric acid) and electro-chemical processes can 
be used to re-establish an anodic oxide film". 

The gist my thread on stainless corrosion is to not allow the corrosion 
to occur in the first place.  Corrosion is not an overnignt process 
(with some extreme exceptions), where you wake up one day and find holes 
in your keg.  This brekdown of the "suface film" had been occuring for 
quite awhile (un-noticed) and finally got to the point of failure. So 
how do you protect your Stainless?  Even if you dont use chlorine you 
should have a routine for repassivating your kegs.  We rinse ours after 
use (lightly scrub if necessary) and store them dry without the lids on 
for a couple of weeks, until needed again (natural repassivation with no 
real work involved), we have "extra" kegs to allow use to store some 
empty for awhile.

If I dont use chlorine why should I repassivate?... I have witnessed a 
10 gal. stainless corny keg used as a portable eye wash station (stored 
with "just plain water" in it for over a year) begin to rust on the 
inside, mostly around the welds, no chlorine contact at all, yet it 
still began to rust due to the fact that the water in it was slightly 
corrosive (Deionized Water). Out of the kindness of my heart I offered 
to dispose of the keg (cant use a rusted keg for an eye wash now can 
you). I took the rusty keg home, sanded and repassivated it with nitric 
acid and am glad to say it is working perfectly as a 10 gal. secondary 
fermenter. If your keg is to the point of internal rust you will have to 
sand and use chemical repassivation, it may be cheaper and easier to 
just replace the keg.

If you are worried about corrosion, dont use corrosive liquids to 
sanitize with!   Try Iodophor - we use it exclusively on Stainless, but 
we also repassivate naturally, just in case.


Matt Brooks
Northern VA.


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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:34:52 -0700
From: Laurel Maney <maney at execpc.com>
Subject: fusel and ester flavors -Tom Barnet

Two big flavor components in beer, when they're in the right proportions
for the style you want.
Esters are formed from alcohols and acids, primarily in the fermentation
process.  Some of the most prominent cause solvent aroma (ethyl acetate
 - smell some nail polish and look at the all the ingredients that say
"xxxx acetate") and fruity aroma (isoamyl acetate - banana or
banana-flavored candy, and ethyl hexanoate - apple, maybe tinged with
anise).
Usually when people just say "estery", they mean fruity-estery, not
solvent.  A German weiss beer yeast should be pumping put the banana
side of the fruity group.  The citrus flavor notes in weiss beers are
also part of the fruity-estery group.
Fusel alcohols are the 'higher' alcohols (i.e., longer than ethyl
alcohol)  also largely formed during fermentation.  Examples are butanol
and 3-methyl butanol, but I don't know of any good, everyday references
you can use.  People often compare it to cheap wine (maybe that's my
problem, I like cheap wine!), but other sources say they're much like
ethanol, "warm and pleasantly alcoholic" (M. Meilgaard of the beer
flavor wheel fame).

The smoky aroma you notice may be the extreme end of some phenolic
compounds that you actually want in your weiss beer (clove aroma from
eugenol and 4-vinyl guiacol).

It sounds like you have the right flavor elements, but in the wrong
balance.  So assuming no other process problems, adjustmenting the
fermentation temp may help. Steve Potter from Madison loaned me a really
good book on flavor evaluation that includes a lot of information on
processing fixes, and you ;might find it helpful.  It's called
Evaluating Beer, from the Association of Brewers in Boulder, copyright
1993.  I guess I'll have to buy myself a copy, before I wear his
out.....





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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:06:38 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: high temp ferment w/3068 / decoctions / IBU perceptions

     Hi all,
     
     Tom B. asks why his wheat beer lacks the expected clove and banana 
     flavors that Eric Warner (and Wyeast) promised.  He followed Warner's 
     recipe and fermented with Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan) at 75-80F 
     (23.8-26.7C).
     
     It is always very difficult to evaluate problems such as this without 
     actually tasting the beer, but I'll babble about what I think may be 
     the trouble.  Tom does mention that the beer is smoky.  Smoke is the 
     result of phenolic compounds, as is the clove character you would 
     expect in a Weizen.  So Tom's beer is phenolic, but not in the desired 
     manner.  It could be a function of the fermentation temperature, or it 
     could be a wild yeast problem.
     
     Tom also notes that the beer has a bitter aftertaste.  Many people 
     don't realize that the phenolic compounds in Weizenbier do taste 
     astringent, which is very similar to bitterness.  That is one reason 
     that Weizens have such low hop rates:  the astringency of the phenols 
     balances the sweetness of the malt.  If the phenols get too high, they 
     can have a negative impact on the beer's flavor, especially in the 
     finish.
     
     75-80F is a very high temperature for fermenting with 3068.  I would 
     expect massive amounts of yeast growth (especially if the wort was 
     underpitched).  This would lead to high fusel alcohols which smell 
     somewhat solventy and alcoholic.  They also taste "hot," giving the 
     impression of a beer that contains more alcohol than it does.  They 
     also seem to be good headache inducers.
     
     At that high a fermentation temperature I would expect a lot of 
     esters, too.  Perhaps so much that they would come across as being 
     more solvent-like than fruity.  Is this the case in your beer, Tom?
     
     While I may not have helped Tom all that much, I can say from 
     experience that 3068 makes a good wheat beer at temperatures between 
     62-68F (16.6-20C).  The banana is sometimes too prominent for my 
     tastes, but at the lower end of that temperature range I have achieved 
     very balanced results.
     ------------------------------------
     Laurel writes in to answer a question about decoctions, and the purposes 
     of the various rests.  She did a nice job explaining the process.  The 
     original poster (whose name was not given) had asked why the rest 
     temperatures are so high (156-158F, 68.8-70C).  I think he (or she) may 
     have been specifically referring to the decoction mash saccharification 
     rest.
     
     If this is the case, the reason you rest the decoction at a relatively 
     high sacc. temperature (70C) is to speed the process up.  Not many 
     brewers want to spend 3 hours in the mash tun.  At 70C you get pretty 
     fast alpha and beta amylase activity, although the beta amylase will 
     only survive about 10 min. at this temperature.  That's OK, though, 
     because you will have achieved adequate saccharification by then.
     
     I don't worry about achieving iodine normality in the decoction mash.  
     As long as there are enough sugars and amino acids around to fuel the 
     Maillard reaction and create melanoidins during the decoction boil, I'm 
     happy.  Laurel points out that boiling will denature the amylase 
     enzymes, but there should be more than enough left in the main mash to 
     finish saccharification when the decoction is returned to it (assuming 
     a mostly malt grain bill).
     
     Laurel goes on to ask about the results of decocting:
     
     "I can see how this [Browning reactions] contributes to a nice amber 
     or dark beer, but I don't get any of that flavor in weiss beers.  Is 
     that because there's so much else going on flavor-wise, because of the 
     yeast?"
     
     It could be that the strong yeast character may make it tougher to 
     appreciate the subtleties of decoction-mashed malt character, but in a 
     fresh wheat beer it is there.  If you are tasting old, commercial wheat 
     beer, then oxidation could be the reason you don't get much malt 
     character.  Melanoidins (the compounds largely responsible for 
     maltiness) are oxidized pretty readily.  That is why dark, 
     high-melanoidin beers can have better flavor stability then lighter 
     beers.  The melanoidins oxidize, thus protecting other compounds from 
     oxidation (for a little while).  This still affects the beer, though.  
     Rather than tasting papery, like severely damaged beers, they may just 
     taste "empty."
     ----------------------------------
     Mike has been reading about ultra-high IBU beers and wondering if 
     people can actually taste the difference between 70 IBUs and 100.
     
     According to my Siebel notes, the cut-off is down around 45-50 IBUs.  
     Above that tastes no more bitter.  There are other things happening in 
     ultra-high IBU beers that effect flavor, though.  To achieve 
     ridiculously high IBU numbers requires relatively large quantities of 
     hops.  Unless bittering solely with hop extract, that means there will 
     be a lot of tannins in the beer (because of all the extra leaf 
     material).  This will make the beer astringent.
     
     All those hops will also lead to high hop flavor, which increases the 
     perception of bitterness (as opposed to when you are given beer spiked 
     only with iso-alpha acids and asked to rate the differences in 
     bitterness).  The high-alpha hops that are likely to be used may impart 
     some rough flavors, too.  While not technically "bitter," it will 
     definitely impact the character of the bitterness.
     
     Hop bitterness declines as beer ages.  By hopping the hell out of it 
     you can be sure that the hops will still be there for ages to come.  
     Even if the IBUs drop from the original 100 down to 60, the customer 
     will still be tasting a damn bitter beer (so bitter, in fact, that 
     they won't taste much else.  That could be the real reason IPA's were 
     so well-hopped.  It didn't prevent beer spoilage, but covered it up).
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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