---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  extract FAN/fusels/O2/beer inductors/starters/top-fermenters (Al Korzonas)
  stainless keg questions (Mark Tumarkin)
  beer-b-que sauce, beer mustard (Mark Tumarkin)
  Hacker-Pshcorr Weisse ("Mike Piersimoni")
  Force Carbonation Method (Pt2) ("Marc Battreall")
  RE: carboy safety (Dick Dunn)
  Storage of CP Filled Bottles (Peter.Ward)
  Mobile Lagering (Bill Anderson)
  inactivity (Earl & Karen Bright)
  yeast growth vs. biomass ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  Re: Oven mashing? ("Joel Plutchak")
  RE:Oven mashing? (Dave Hinrichs)
  Re: PBW - ok for glass? (Steve Jackson)
  Pitching Temps ("Watkins, Tim")
  Oven mashing overview; horizontal cornies (Samuel Mize)
  TSP? ("Anton Verhulst")
  Perry/Bisulfite, ("David R. Burley")
  Oven Mashing / Acetic Sanitizer (Ken Schwartz)
  Horizontal Bop... (Some Guy)
  Proper Iodophor Temp. (Tim Burkhart)
  Another way to force carbonate (Bruce)
  Women Brewers, Little Fermenters, and Carboy Safety ("Gregory A. Lorton")


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Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:15:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: extract FAN/fusels/O2/beer inductors/starters/top-fermenters

Bill writes:
1.  Earlier this year, I recall reading some HBD posts
    recommending limiting the use of Irish Moss in protein-
    deficient worts (including those made from malt syrups) to
    1/4 teaspoon or less.  What makes malt syrups protein
    deficient?

I believe you are mixing two different topics (or maybe this was posted
on r.c.b which I don't read).  I posted that I found that extract batches
required only 1/4 teaspoon of Irish Moss (per 5 gal) whereas all-grain
benefitted from 1 teaspoon per 5 gal.  I speculated that this was because
*some* of the hot and cold break that forms had already been removed
during the production of the extract.  Protein levels in extract vary
widely (as do FAN levels).  Theoretically, Irish Moss is supposed to
help coagulate the "bad" proteins (those that cause haze) while leaving
most of the "good" proteins (those that provide body and head retention)
in the wort.  I believe that amino acids (free amino nitrogen, aka FAN)
are too small to coagulate and settle out of the wort.  I don't believe
that using too much Irish Moss is a problem of *removing too much protein*
but rather (Foster explains it in "Clear Beer Please" in one of the AHA
Conference Proceedings) can result in hazy beer.  The explanation is
too long to include here.

***
Peter writes (quoting David):
>>I just brewed a wheat ale on Saturday using Wyeast 3333 (German Wheat).
>{SNIP}
>>temperature of the liquid topped out at 80 degrees.  Incidentally,
>>when I first added the yeast, it was 74 degrees and has been slowly rising
>since.
> 
> 
>At temperatures of 80F you can probably expect a high level of fusel
>alcohols. These can be mild, but more generally they create a nail polish
>remover aroma. Acetone, that bubble blowing plastic gunk we used to get when
>we were kids, plastic: these are descriptors of fusels.

Actually, that "nail polish remover" aroma is from ethyl acetate, which is
an ester, not a higher (fusel) alcohol.  Higher alcohols (which are produced
in excess at higher fermentation temperatures as Peter describes) are
generally solventy or alcoholic aromas/flavours.  The way I usually describe
it is that higher alcohols (i.e. alcohols with longer/larger carbon chains than
ethanol) have more of that classic "alcohol aroma" and are more warming
than ethanol.  Remember hearing that good vodka doesn't smell strongly
of alcohol?  That's right... well-made vodka will be mostly ethanol and low
in longer/larger-chain alcohols.  It's not surprising that one might
associate nail polish remover with higher temperature ferments... they also
result in higher levels of esters too!

***
Matt writes:
>To summarize:  Oxygenating wort with pure O2 is probably best left to
>the large scale brewers who need the extra O2 due to transfer piping and
>sealed containers that dont allow the just chilled wort to become fully
>saturated with O2 before they pitch...<snip>

You are forgetting several important factors.  I cannot use room air to
aerate my wort.  It used to be just in the summer, but now I play it
safe and minimise exposure to room air all-year-round.  I drain my kettle
gently into purged carboys.  First, I started aerating with an aquarium pump
and an inline 0.2 micron filter.  According to AJ's post a few years ago,
this setup required about 10 minutes of aeration to get enough O2 in solution.
After 1 minute, the foam is crawling out of the carboy.  Stop.  Wait.  Restart.
Lather.  Rinse.  Repeat.

With oxygen, I can get to reasonable DO levels in around a minute.

Matt continues:
>A must have item for using Pure O2 is a gas flow meter so
>you can determine the best flow rate per unit time as you try to
>establish a proper oxygenation procedure for your particular setup

On my wish list... good gas flow meters are not cheap.  I'd like to
have a flow meter, but I had 4 beers and 2 meads in the 2nd round of the
AHA Nationals this year just counting to 60 at random flow rates.

***
Laurel writes:
>In answer to Mark Swenson's question about dispensing from a keg at
>relatively high pressure - you're right to use a longer dispense line,
>but you might also try coiling it up several times (say, a 5-6" diameter
>coil or as small as you can make it without kinking the tubing) to give
>more back pressure.

Are you sure about this?  I don't see how coiling would increase back
pressure... the fact is that flow is what causes the pressure drop.
Is there an "inductor-like" effect (like coiling a wire)?   No... there
can't be... can there?  An inductor works because a magnetic field is
generated.

***
Jorge writes:
My method:
>Pitch 3 tsp of dry yeast in 100 mL of boiled water at 35C.
>About half an hour later, when  yeast seem to be completely hydrolyzed and
>foaming a little, add another 100 mL of water boiled with two or three tsp
>of sugar. This water is around 35C.

It has already been mentioned that starters are not as beneficial for
dry yeast as for liquid yeasts, but I'd like to draw attention to the
fact that feeding yeast pure sugar (table or corn) can result in sluggish
performance and high FGs later.  Yease need certain enzymes to utilize
maltose, maltotriose, etc., and they can "forget" how to make these
enzymes if they are fed simple sugars.  Dry malt extract would be *MUCH*
better and would also contain some FAN.

***
Gregg writes:
>Hi, it's me again. I've got a question that has been bugging me for a
>long time. It's about top-working yeasts. All books I've read do not
>adequately supply information on whether one should wait for the krausen
>to drop before racking for secondary/maturation. I've had strains that
>refused to drop after two weeks in the primary, and starins that just
>drop after fermentation. In short, I'd want to know if I really need to
>wait till the last moment to decide what is the best course of action,
>which is the proper method? To rack off the yeast slurry or from under
>the krausen?

Depends on the yeast.  Some ale yeasts are not really "top fermenting"
anymore.  Certainly the lines between ale and lager yeast performance
is far more blurred than it used to be.  If your yeast is a true top
fermenter (like the Ringwood yeast or the Samuel Smith's yeast), then
you will indeed rack out from under the kraeusen rather than racking
off the yeast slurry.  However, "do you want to?" is an important
question.  It just so happens that these true top fermenters can often
be underattenuative unless you intentionally rouse it back into the
beer.  Both at Samuel Smith's and at some breweries that use the
Ringwood yeast (like Shipyard), literally use pumps and sprayers to
resuspend the yeast back into solution.

As for when you should rack out from under this pancake of yeast,
the question is: "is the beer done?"  Better put: "Have I gotten
enough attenuation?"  Part of this is determined by knowing what
your expected apparent attenuation is for this yeast and calculating
it.  No fermentation is perfectly clean and if you leave too much
fermentable sugar in the beer, you'll have gushers eventually.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:47:49 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: stainless keg questions

Matt Brooks just sent in a great post on stainless steel and corrosion.
What he said went along with what I've read in posts from John Palmer
and others. So I know to be careful with the  chlorine cleaners and to
let  the keg sit to repassivate the surface. I've got a couple of
questions about restoring a somewhat abused keg. I am about ready to
make the plunge into all-grain and with that in mind, I recently
acquired an old Bud keg that had been used as a boil pot for peanuts.
The top had been cut out entirely (by a plasma cutter I think). At any
rate, they did a fairly good job but never bothered to grind smooth the
1/4 inch or so that was left. So it has a rough edge that is really
rusty - as is  1/2 or 3/4 inches of the keg wall above this. There are
also small specks of rust scattered throughout the inside of the keg.
What would be the best way to dress up the edge and clean up the rust?
Would you use a small hand-held grinder, or would hand tools be better?
Also, what are the advantages/disadvantages of having a nipple welded in
versus drilling a hole and using bulkhead type fittings to put in a
drain valve? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:23:39 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: beer-b-que sauce, beer mustard

A while back Scott Murman posted an interesting recipe for a beer based
barbeque sauce. It had a fairly hefty looking pepper bill, although
Scott said that most of the heat was cooked away. At the time I thought
I'd have to try that. Well, I was getting ready to grill some chicken
and went to the refrigerator to get the marinade sauce, only to find
that some fool had put back the jar with only a 1/2 inch or so left in
it. I hate when that happens, what kind of idiot would do that.....
oops, I quess that would be me. Well, anyway, I was all set to grill but
was sauceless. I thought hmm, now's the time to try a beer-b-que sauce.
Some of the people over for dinner were not the type to appreciate hot
flavors so I simply took a bottle of homebrewed barleywineand mixed in
the remaining little bit of commercial sauce. That was just enough to
thicken it up a bit.(If you are thinking I wimped out on the peppers -
you're right, but read my beer mustard recipe below and maybe you'll cut
me some slack). I let it sit for an hour and slapped it on the grill. I
didn't say anything about the sauce till after everyone was eating. It
was simple but, really good. Maybe next time I'll try Scott's recipe.

If you like hot food, try this recipe for my Hot 'N Bothered Beer
Mustard. It started out as a Martha Stewart recipe. But don't let that
gross you out, it is significantly modified at this point!

Ingredients:
1 Cup brown mustard seeds
1/4 Cup yellow mustard seeds
1 Cup dark homebrew beer (something nice and malty though hops don't
hurt!)
1 Cup white wine vinegar
1 Cup mustard powder combined with 1 Cup water (let sit 20 minutes)
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon allspice
1/4 teaspoon ground tumeric
1/4 teaspoon ground mace
6 or 8 habanero or scotch bonnet peppers
4 ozs. fresh-ground horseradish

Combine mustard seeds with beer and vinegar in a non-reactive container
 - like a plastic bowl with a sealing lid. Let sit 48 hours, stirring
occasionally.Add more liquid if it seems too stiff. Reserve some of the
seeds to add back after processing to make the mustard grainy. Then mix
in remaining ingredients and run through a food processor or blender
until smooth. The amount of peppers and horseradish can be adjusted to
your taste, although if you don't want to make a hot, flavorful mustard
then it's not worth the trouble. Just go buy some commercial mustard,
there are a lot of good choices. But try this and take some to your next
beer club picnic - try this on those brats boiled in beer and I'll
gaurantee it'll be a hit.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:37:04 -0700
From: "Mike Piersimoni" <msp at dplus.net>
Subject: Hacker-Pshcorr Weisse

Anybody have a good clone recipe of Hacker-Pschorr Weisse.
Lots of banana notes.
I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks Mike



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Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:12:48 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Force Carbonation Method (Pt2)

Greetings All,

Sam Mize pointed out to me that a post I made yesterday regarding a method
that I recently used to force carbonate a Corny keg of IPA merely referenced
you all to a web page and did not include the actual procedure. By doing
this I neglected to make this a permanent reference to the HBD Archives.
Good point Sam, thanks.

Please bear in mind that I did not invent this procedure and all credit due
goes to Robert Arguello (or whomever taught him how to do it). It's real
simple and quick, and as previously stated, quite effective.

Here's how it's done: Cool the Corny keg to at least 45F or cooler. This is
important because cold beer absorbs CO2 better than warm beer. Sit in a
armless chair or on a stool and place the keg in your lap perpendicular to
your legs with the gas intake valve up. Apply 35 psi of CO2 while gently
(repeat gently) swaying it side to side. You will hear the gas bubbling the
beer inside. Do not shake the keg. Robert recommended that you do this for 4
minutes. I did it for 5 minutes and had good results. After 5 minutes of
swaying, remove the gas line and very slowly (repeat slowly) bleed off all
the pressure in the keg. You will get a little beer spewed out of the
pressure relief valve, but it's only a few ounces if you do it right. Then
re-pressurize the keg to your normal dispensing pressure. I only one 16
ounce glass of mostly foam, but all the subsequent pours have been great!

I did have a few more glasses of slightly hazy brew, but it cleared up after
about 36-48 hours. The head that is formed (on mine anyway) is tight,
creamy, lacy, and lasts to the bottom of the glass. Please bear in mind that
this will not "repair" a headless beer that is due to some disparity in your
brewing process. Standard waiver applies....YMMV.

I took a growler full of this brew to my homebrew club meeting lastnight and
it was a smash hit. The head made the 4 trip from the tap to the table!!

If you want a full blown printout of Robert's procedure, get it at his web
site. (Yes it's still there Sam, at least as of two days ago)

Enjoy

Marc

=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



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Date: 31 Jul 98 00:27:28 MDT (Fri)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: RE: carboy safety

Before the practice of using glass carboys for water becomes entirely obso-
lete, we ought to pick up some lessons.  One in particular is that the
folks who deliver 5-gal bottles have long used a "handle" that has a hand-
grip and a fork that grabs the carboy just below the molded-in bulge in
the neck.  This indicates that our ubiquitous carboy handle is probably
quite safe (and that their _sotto_voce_ instructions are mostly intended to
try to keep the ambulance-chasers at bay) even if handling full carboys.

I know that "It hasn't failed so far" is a weak argument from any sort of
technical/scientific standpoint, but I've been using the carboy handles
almost since they were introduced, without a problem.  I can imagine that
you'd be able to gorilla up a difficulty, but I think you'd have to work at
it.

There are other points to beware, though.  For one, carboys are terminally
anti-social, so don't ever try to get them together.  (I don't know how
they mate, but it's not while we're around.  Don't even get them close to
one another.)  Two out of my few iron-clad rules are:
  * Never attempt to carry more than one carboy at a time.  No, not even if
    they're empty...not only are they anti-social; they are jealous.  You
    can't give attention to more than one at once, and if one senses you're
    only paying attention to the other, the first one will get you.
  * Never do anything with carboys unless you're wearing good solid foot-
    wear.  (Even good sandals are an invitation to disaster.)  You never
    intend to break a carboy, but if it does happen you're going to find
    yourself in the middle of a mess of very wet sharp nasty glass, and
    you're going to want all the help you can find to get out and grab
    something to clean it up.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA
   ...Mr. Natural says, "Get the right tool for the job."


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:09:16 +1000
From: Peter.Ward at bankerstrust.com.au
Subject: Storage of CP Filled Bottles


I have only been using a CP filler for a few weeks and all the bottles
I have filled so far have been consumed within a week of filling.

I would like to store bottles for much longer but first would like to know
how
well they will keep. Basically, the beer is chilled and carbonated in the
keg,
bottled, and then stored for weeks/months at room temperature. Then it is
chilled again before being served. Will it deteriorate in any way while it
is
being stored at room temperature?

My guess is that provided the temperature doesn't get too extreme it should
keep as well as bottle-conditioned beer, however I have had one homebrew
shop owner tell me that beer (including commercial beer) doesn't like
getting
warm after having already been chilled.

Peter




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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:00:14 +0100
From: anderson at ini.cz (Bill Anderson)
Subject: Mobile Lagering

Dear Fellow HBDers
I've found myself in a rather difficult situation, which I hope you could
help me solve.

I have more than 150 liters (300 beers!) of brew lagering in stainless
steel tanks (kegs, actually), owing to my good fortune of working with a
small brewery here in rural Bohemia.

I am forced to relocate back to the US sooner than anticipated, and don't
wish to lose my precious lager (who would?), and hope to ship it back with
me.

My questions to you:
What kinds of detrimental effects will the brew suffer during shipping?
To what extent?
Is it theoretically possible to lager during transport, and bottle in the US?
What customs and agricultural nightmares would I face at the US border?
Shipping lager tanks vs. bottles; what's the freshness factor?
Could there possibly be any positive outcome to this, or am I completely
demented over the loss of my beer?
Why me?

Thanks in advance, and I look forward to your thoughts.

 -Bill Anderson
anderson at ini.cz

"In the worm universe [of dreams], there is nothing unusual about a dairy
cow seeking a pair of pliers. A cow is bound to get her pliers sometime. It
has nothing to do with me."

 -Haruki Murakami; A wild sheep chase




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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:20:45 -0400
From: denali at epix.net (Earl & Karen Bright)
Subject: inactivity

I am a new homebrewer and just did my first batch Weds night.  It is now
Fri. morning and still have no activity.  I followed the directions to the
letter.  Any suggestions, shoule I wait longer, repitch more yeast, please
help????


Earl Bright




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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:17:01 +0100
From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com>
Subject: yeast growth vs. biomass

Steve Alexander argues that the rate of fermentation is dependent on yeast
biomass and not yeast growth.

Then Peter counters by quoting Lyn Kruger (from Siebel Short Course):
>"Governing principal in fermentation:
>The rate of fermentation will depend on the rate and extent of yeast
>growth."

Now I'm sure Lyn Kruger knows a thing or two about fermentation and
probably offered this "governing principle" under the assumption that
standard commercial brewing practices are being followed (i.e. pitch yeast
at about 10-20 million cells/ml). Under these conditions, yeast growth does
govern fermentation rate, but only because yeast growth increases yeast
biomass. Technically, Steve is correct in saying that fermentation rate is
dependent on viable biomass, and not growth. I have some recent data from
my own experiments that illustrates this point perfectly:

Fermentation 1:
Pitch healthy yeast into 12*P wort with 7ppm O2 at cell concentration of
1.35 x 10^7 cells/ml
After 24 hours: yeast has grown 10-fold (to 1.42 x 10^8 cells/ml) and
gravity has fallen to 5.4*P.

Fermentation 2:
Pitch starved yeast into 12*P wort with 0ppm O2 at cell concentration of
1.39 x 10^8 cells/ml
After 24 hours: yeast growth is negligible (to 1.46 x 10^8 cells/ml) and
gravity has fallen to 5.0*P.

This data shows clearly that fermentation rate is governed by biomass, not
yeast growth.

Cheers,
Mort O'Sullivan
Edinburgh, Scotland



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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:46:31 -0500
From: "Joel Plutchak" <joel at bolt.atmos.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Oven mashing?

IN HBD #2783, Badger [love that name!] wrote:
>can you use your oven for mashing?  like simple steeping of specialty grains
>but real mashing?  toss all teh grains in your brewpot, put it into the
>oven, turn it to 150, let it sit for an hour, (or more to let it heat up?),
>then crank it up to 170?  

   My opinion is no.  You'll spend a *lot* of time getting the mash
up to 150 (even assuming your oven thermostat is anywhere close to
being accurate), which will drag it through a bunch of temperature
ranges which have been long discussed here as having negative
consequences.  (Somebody more chemically inclined can get down and
nasty with the details.)  And that's just for starters.
   That said, I mash in a canning pot on the stovetop, but put the
pot in the oven for keeping the temperature stable.  I generally
set the oven on 150, then just turn it off for the duration.
Spot checking shows a temperature change of only a degree either
way between the start and end of mash.  YMMV.
- --
Joel


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:51:22 -0400
From: Dave Hinrichs <dhinrichs at quannon.com>
Subject: RE:Oven mashing?

>can you use your oven for mashing?  like simple steeping of specialty grains
>but real mashing?  toss all teh grains in your brewpot, put it into the
>oven, turn it to 150, let it sit for an hour, (or more to let it heat up?),
>then crank it up to 170?  pour it into a collander (big one) and pour 170
>deg water thru it?

This is what I use, It is cheap and a good way to learn the mashing process.
I am currently gathering the equipment to go to full mash, since I have
learned how easy it can be. The biggest hassle is to transfer the mash from
the pot to the lauter tun. I use two 2 gallon buckets with the inner drilled
to become the big collander. Check out Ken Schwartz's web site on partial
mashing, http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
***************************************************************
* Dave Hinrichs                 E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com *
* Quannon CAD Systems, Inc.             Voice: (612) 935-3367 *
* 6101 Baker Road, Suite 204              FAX: (612) 935-0409 *
* Minnetonka, MN 55345                    BBS: (612) 935-8465 *
*                http://www.quannon.com/                      *
***************************************************************



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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 06:57:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: PBW - ok for glass?

In HBD # 2783 (July 31, 1998), Charley Burns wrote:

>>
In one of our local HB shops this afternoon I got a couple of "sample
packs"
of Five Star PBW. Says to use it "warm". HB shop dude says use 175F
water if
possible. My questions are: how long is it supposed to soak (2 min, 2
hours,
2 days????) and can I use it on glass carboys? The directions only say
to
dissolve one packet into 2-5 gallons of warm water.
<<

First off, see if you can get a copy of more detailed instructions
from the shop. I know they exist, but they are usually packaged with
the PBW "kit" that contains several packets of PBW and some Star-San.

As for using it on glass, it is perfectly acceptable to do so. Fix
mentions its use in "An Analysis of Brewing Techniques" (and,
incidentally, classifies it as one of the most effective cleaners, as
well as one of the safest to use). The literature that comes with the
PBW kit includes instructions for use on glass.

I have used PBW on the 6.5 gallon carboy I use for a primary
fermenter. In the past, I've soaked a vinegar solution in there for
several days to sort of remove the hard-water film I get in the carboy
after a few batches. The vinegar did an OK job, but I had to soak for
several days and then scrub like hell.

For my most recent cleaning, I used one packet of PBW in a nearly full
caroby. I didn't measure the temp. of the water, but it was what I
would consider warm to the touch (incidentally, I don't recall seeing
the 175 figure in the PBW literature, and Fix indicates PBW is
effective at safe, i.e. lower, temperatures). I soaked for about an
hour and then did some gentle scrubbing with my carboy brush. I missed
a couple spots, so they didn't get 100 percent clear, but the carboy
was about as clean as it was when I bought it. I'm guessing if I let
it soak overnight (which I couldn't do, since I needed the tub), it
would have come out perfectly clean. A brewing friend of mine cleans
his carboys with PBW using a longer soak than I did, and they sparkle.

 -Steve in Indianapolis
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:46:26 -0400
From: "Watkins, Tim" <Tim.Watkins at analog.com>
Subject: Pitching Temps

In HBD 2783,  Sam Mize beats himself up and calls himself a maroon for
giving bad advice about the pitching temp for an ale.  I'd have to agree
with Sam's original post, but not his second post.  Dion said "Today ...
my CF chiller only managed to cool the wort to 82F. Well, I pitched
anyway.  As normal, within an hour, I had activity in my blowoff hose.
So, the higher than normal pitching temperature appears to have been OK
for the yeast."

That fact that there was activity within an hour, seems to indicate that
there was active fermentation.  I highly doubt that five gallons of 82F
wort would cool down to 70 degrees within an hour.  It sounds like the
initial ferment would have happened at a higher than optimal
temperature, so there *may* be some higher alcohols/esters in the mix.
This is, of course, dependant on yeast strain, etc.

Dion,  If you could keep us informed on how this batch turns out, we'll
at least have a data point to start from.

Tim Watkins
Lowell, MA


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:41:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: Oven mashing overview; horizontal cornies

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
 ...
> can you use your oven for mashing?

I used the search engine at the web site to look through the last
three years of posts to HBD that include "oven" and "mash."  (hint)

Several people mash in their oven.  All but one mashes in a kettle and not
in a cooler.  (OK, the one using a cooler was doing two different mashes.)

Most use the oven to maintain temperatures.  A simple infusion to one
temperature is most common.  Some do multiple temperatures by adding
hot/boiling water or returning to the stovetop.

A few people use the oven to boost to the next rest temperature.  I would
expect this to give a very slow rise from one temp to the next; this is
either good or bad, depending on what you wanted.

Some people mash overnight in a warm oven.

Domenick Venezia in '96 says: "Another trick is to preheat your grain in
the oven to your first target temp, then just combine it with water at the
same temp."  I use a cooler, but I may try this.

> pour it into a collander (big one) and pour 170
> deg water thru it?

HSA city, dude.  You don't want to aerate your wort while it's above
about 104F (Hot-Side Aeration, bet you knew that), and pouring water
through a strainer or colander aerates it very well.  (I do that to
aerate for fermentation.)

If you're willing to drill a hole in your kettle, install an
EasyMasher.  Hit Jack Schmidling's web site (http://ays.net/jsp) for
ordering info AND info on how to make your own.  (That dirty
money-grubber, it's got to be a trick somehow...)

If you don't want drill your kettle, build a laeuter tun.  This is
just a container with a filtered drain, and tubing so you can drain
into the kettle without a lot of splashing.  You gently transfer the
mashed grains to the laeuter tun (avoid splashing) and sparge them.

You can build a fancy manifold out of copper or heat-resistant PVC.
You can install an easy masher.  I use a cooler, and I just wire a
choreboy-type copper scrubber inside at the outlet.  The grains do
the real filtering anyway, the choreboy just keeps grains from
popping loose and flowing out.

I don't use separate mash and laeuter tuns, I do infusion mashes in my
cooler with heated water (which is also dead simple).

This should be enough hints to guide your research.  If you want
suggestions for a specific mash/laeuter design, feel free to email.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: "Larry Maxwell" <Larry at bmhm.com>
> Subject: Fermenting in Cornies

> The idea
> is to ferment in cornies laying horizontally rather than standing 
> vertically.

Sounds not unreasonable, but I haven't heard of anyone doing it.  You
might be putting more faith in your gaskets than some people would
find comfortable.  Also, you'll have to lift them suckers into the rack.

> The only real drawback that I can think of is that I 
> suspect at least a gallon or so of space above the upper port is wasted.

You could use a bent tube on the upper port, inside, to reduce this
wasted space, perhaps.  On the other hand, I'd PREFER to have a
gallon or so of headspace for fermentation.  On the other other hand,
a bent tube would put your blowoff outlet up above the main body of
the kraeusen, so you'd be mostly blowing out CO2 instead of beer.

You want to be real real REAL careful about your blowoff clogging.
These outlets are much smaller than the mouth of a carboy.  They are
(I think) about the size of a siphon hose, and those occasionally
clog when used for blowoff.  There's no stopper for it to blow out,
either.  I don't know HOW you'd deal with a clogged and
overpressurized corny of still-fermenting beer laying on its side.

You could always do the primary fermentation upright, then put them
into the rack once the kraeusen has subsided.  This would let you do
the primary fermentation semi-open (loosely covered), or with a
homebuilt lid with a big opening for a blowoff tube.  If you're a
mechanic, you could build such a lid that would seal firmly, so you
could use it horizontally.

HORIZONTAL SERVING: If you like CAMRA-style real ale, this would let
you dispense without using CO2, or with only a gently CO2 blanket to
prevent oxidization (not purely OK by CAMRA standards, but many CAMRA
members consider it a good idea).

Best,
Sam Mize
 - -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:26:22 -0400
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: TSP?


>Jeff Winkler asked about getting TSP stains out of his carboy.  I have left TSP
>in contact with glass for extended periods without getting any film or residue.
>However, my water is extremely soft so I suspect the deposit is from minerals
>in the water, probably calcium.  I would try rinsing with vinegar.
>
>John Wilkinson 

Since TSP has been getting a bad rap from the Environmental Protection Agency,
A product called "TSP substitute" (with "substitute" in small letters) is 
fairly prominant.  This stuff does not work as well as real TSP and has been
known to leave a residue on glass.  This may be Jeff Winkler's problem.

I'm anticipating the day when TSP will be banned in the US and have bought
what I anticipate to be a lifetime supply (10 pounds).


- --Tony V


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:30:21 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Perry/Bisulfite,

Brewsters:

Dick Dunn says about my suggestion to use 1\8 tsp of sodium metabisulfite

per 5 gallons when making perry:

"I'm curious about the amount, too.  1/8 tsp is approximately one Campden

tablet."

1/8 tsp in 5 gallons is sufficient to provide about 30 ppm of sulfite
at a pH less that 3.3. This is not sufficient to be a bio-active
concentration
which the 1 Campden tablet per (British) gallon is.  30 ppm is sufficient

to
prevent non-enzymatic browning due to oxygen presence in the fresh juice
and in the still perry, since sulfite is also a good antioxidant. 


I suggest you try this technique, Dick, and compare the difference - 
you'll
like it.

Dick also says:

"Oh, one more thing:  If you do sulfite the juice, you need to wait about
 a
day and then inoculate it with a yeast starter, since the sulfite is 
pretty
good at killing off the natural yeast you might otherwise use."

Not in this case of 30 ppm, as this amount will not interfere with the
yeast,
but I always pitch a wine yeast to avoid the aceto bacterial growth that
results from too long sitting in an aereated state before the low
population
of natural yeast can become acitve.

Typically bacteria are inactivated at 50 ppm and yeast are inactivated at

100 ppm, so if you want to do it "naturally" and not use a starter, but
still
make the best perry by avoiding acetification, add 1/4 tsp per 5 gallons
( 60 ppm).  If you want to pitch yeast at this level of sulfite, I wait a

few hours
( like 4) and pitch the dry yeast dissolved in cold boiled water.

This same technique can be used with apple cider
also. Trick is to get the sulfite to the juice a soon as possible after
pressing.

As far as "natural" goes, remember that some wine yeast make sulfite.
Sulfite in the form of sulfur candles has been used in making wine
for more than two millenia by Greek, Roman and French vintners.

Although I know this was not your direct point , Dick, I see people are
often concerned by the "contains sulfites" label on wine bottles from
France.  I think this marketing ploy ( like "contains no tropical oils" 
by
US oil producers)  by nitrogen-using, large US vintners has gone far
enough. I have yet to see any reason not to use this simple compound in
moderate amounts and challenge anyone to provide me with scientific
documentation that it is harmful in the amount that normally occurs
in wine. This is especially true, since we can routinely detect 100 ppm
of sulfite by smelling it and won't drink wine at this high (yet safe)
level.
The simple act of pouring wine into a glass significantly reduces the
concentration of sulfite. As wine ages the concentration of sulfite
disappears slowly.

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:59:53 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Oven Mashing / Acetic Sanitizer

Badger asks:

> can you use your oven for mashing?  like simple steeping of specialty grains
> but real mashing?  toss all teh grains in your brewpot, put it into the
> oven, turn it to 150, let it sit for an hour, (or more to let it heat up?),
> then crank it up to 170?  pour it into a collander (big one) and pour 170
> deg water thru it?

Since it will take "too long" to *change* the temperature of a typical
mash in the oven, your best bet is to use the oven instead to *maintain*
the mash temeprature after establishing it on the stovetop.  My gas oven
will hold 150F just fine but I suspect many (especially electrics) won't
do well below 200F.  An experiment I tried recently with a small 155F
mash (3 lb grain + 1 gal water) and a 200F oven gave me a 3F rise in 30
minutes.  Perhaps a starting point would be preheat to 200F, place mash
in oven, turn off heat after say 20 minutes.  The slight bump in the
temperature profile shouldn't cause too much grief, and the oven should
stay hot enough for the remaining 40 minutes or so to keep you within a
couple degrees of your target.

This is an excellent & relaxing mashing method for parial-mashers
especially, since you typically use a single-infusion type mash in a
fairly small vessel.  Heat your water, mix in the grains, stick it in
the oven.  No more scorched mash and hotspots.

=====

Michael J Brown offers a recipe for sanitizer:

> To make it up, get one pound of glacial acetic acid (99%
> acetic acid) and dilute to 10% in water -- remember to add acid to water,
> OK? Then add it to 3% hydrogen peroxide in a 1:3 ratio (i.e. 1/4 acetic

Me no chemist.  Scared of acid.  Michael, since regular ol' vinegar is
5% acetic acid (if memory serves), is that close enough (or can we use
twice as much vinegar as 10% acetic?)?

- -- 

*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
kenbob at elp.rr.com
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:30:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Horizontal Bop...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

> From: "Larry Maxwell" <Larry at bmhm.com>
> Subject: Fermenting in Cornies

> The idea
> is to ferment in cornies laying horizontally rather than standing
> vertically.

I build a rack that supports the cornies at a 45' angle. This takes care 
of minimizing the headspace requirement as well as provides a surface 
similar to a cylindroconical fermenter's neck (at least one side)...

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:18:14 -0500
From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: Proper Iodophor Temp.

What is the optimum water temperature for the use of Iodophor? 

Michael J. Brown's informative post on sanitation (HBD #2783) mentioned...
"Second, there is Iodophor, which when used at cold temperatures, 25ppm for
3~5 minutes makes for a good inexpensive alternative."

I have been using warm to hot temps for my Iodophor sanitizing. When I used
bleach I knew to keep the water cool, but have not found any specific info
about proper water temp with Iodophor. It might be on the bottle somewhere,
but the tiny, dark green lettering against brown Iodophor makes reading a
PITA.

I have not had any infection problems with using hot water and Iodophor. I'm
just curious if there is an optimum temperature.

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:24:40 -0600
From: Bruce <cabin11 at zianet.com>
Subject: Another way to force carbonate


Just get an extra *out* connector for your corny kegs (to fit the dip tube
side).  Make a gas line from your CO2 tank to the *out* connector of your
chilled keg.  Slowly increase the pressure to 13 psi or so (depending how
many volumes of carbonation you want).  There is a useful carbonation
pressure table at:

http://hbd.org/brewery/library/CO2charts.html

The bubbles rising through the beer expose a much larger surface area and
provide mixing.  The earliest bubbles probably don't even make it to the
surface.  The beer will carbonate in several hours.

bruce




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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:29:41 -0700
From: "Gregory A. Lorton" <glorton at cts.com>
Subject: Women Brewers, Little Fermenters, and Carboy Safety

In HBD#2783, Mike wrote:

"I've been kinda perplexed about the lack of women brewers too (in my own
dumb guy sort of way).  <snip>  Here's the only idea I can come up with...

Most brewing is done in 5 gallon batches.  At some point, (regardless of
equipment for most everyone) you've got to pick up the beer and move it. 
That means being able to routinely lift at least 40 to 50 pounds, without a
good way to hold it."


Maybe one answer is to use 3-gallon or 2.8-gallon glass carboys.  When
they're full they weigh only 30 to 35 pounds, and they seem easier to get a
hold of and move around.  And they're cute!  (oops, I didn't mean to type
that.  Ignore that last sentence!)  And they also say size doesn't matter! 
(oh no, not again!)

Actually, I switched to 2.8 and 3-gallon fermenters four years ago, mainly
because of the problems described in HBD in the last week and a half about
carboy safety.  Prior to that I had twice dropped a 5-gallon fermenter,
once just after pitching the yeast and the second time as I was getting
ready to bottle.  I can pick up a small fermenter with one hand to help get
a better grip, and I haven't dropped one (YET!).

After I made the change, I realized there were a number of other
advantages, too.  Since the brewing volumes are smaller, you don't need
quite as big a SS pot.  I use a Phil's Lauter Tun, and with proportionately
less grain (40% less), the lautering and sparging goes quicker.  I sold my
5- and 6.5-gallon fermenters.

This is kind of a contrarian viewpoint, with lots of serious homebrewers
looking for bigger equipment and brew sizes, but I'm not a gadget guy (I'm
more of a process guy) and I like the little batches.  It means I've got to
brew every two weeks instead of every three, but that's a lot of the fun
for me.

Greg Lorton
of the Schweindander Nanobrauerei
Carlsbad, CA



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---