---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RE: holes in my fridge (John Wilkinson)
  wort stability (John Wilkinson)
  Re: pH and Temperature; Brix ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  Down South Hops ("Marc Battreall")
  Re:Acidifying Sparge Water (Jim Bentson)
  Melbourne Homebrew Clubs (RTD)" <Tony.Ackland at riotinto.com.au>
  RE:  Beer Stone (Douglas Price TQO)
  Announcing Third Dayton Beerfest Competition (Steve Zabarnick)
  Bad Infection (Gary Shewchuk)
  yeast collection from primary (Tom Barnet)
  RE: Patron Saint of Brewing (Shane)
  Re: Marketing/Tasting (Michael Tucker)
  re: Patron Saint of Beer (Wayne_Kozun)
  courtesy; lag time; logs 'n' lipids; Plutchakian Abasement (Samuel Mize)
  Cell Counting (Charley Burns)
  hop growth characteristics (jshope)
  Funky after taste (OGP-Tempe)" <vjm at ogpnet.com>
  Patron Saint of brewing ("Lutzen, Karl F.")
  Forced versus Over Pitched Fermentations ("David R. Burley")
  Re:  Patron Saint of Brewing/Beer??? ("Brian Rezac")
  Blue Heron Recipe Request (Fred Mayfield)
  Nonflocker ("LordPeter")
  Basement BrewPub & The Building Inspector (Kenneth Sullivan)
  Yeast Combos ("LordPeter")
  Yeast and O2 and such ("LordPeter")
  Lactic Acid; Acid Wort; Keg'o'charge; ABG ("Peter Gilbreth")
  My Philler Web Page ("Nate Wahl")
  Steeping crystal malt ("George De Piro")
  Re: Force Conditioning (David Sherfey)
  Sanitation, sterilization, and other organisms (Rick Theiner)


There will be a Sunday Digest this week...

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 6 Aug 98 15:42:16 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: holes in my fridge

Robert Johnson and Ron La Borde discussed putting a gas line into a
refrigerator.  Ron said he plans to use a small pipe with gas in connectors
on both ends.

What I did was use about a 3/8 inch nipple with large washers and lock nuts
on the inside and outside, an NPT to compression fitting on the inside, and
an NPT to QD post fitting on the outside.  I connected a short gas line to the
compression fitting on the inside and to a manifold which distributed the gas
to the kegs.  On the outside I used a Cornelius type gas in QD connector.
I bought the manifold from Brewer's Resource.  It is modular with about as
many outlets as you like with valves on each.  It costs $19.95 for two outlets
and $8.95 for each additional outlet.  I like it.  The fitting to go from
NPT to the QD post thread was a little harder to find.  I finally found it at
South Bay Homebrew Supply.  They may not list it in their catalog but call
them and they  should be able to supply it.  The pipe nipple, NPT to
compression fitting, washers, lock nuts, etc I bought at a local hardware
store.  I drilled the hole in the side of the refrigerator with a small hole
saw the size of the pipe nipple.

I like the setup I have.  It allows me to easily remove the CO2 tank for
flushing, transferring, carbonation, etc.  The manifold on the inside could
probably be done with a series of tee's but I think the manifold is neater.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Aug 98 16:44:38 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: wort stability

A couple of weekends ago I brewed a batch of stout.  Prior to pitching the
yeast I took a sample to test the OG.  I had sanitized the wine thief, sample
tube, hydrometer, 1/2 pint jar, and lid.  After testing the SG of the sample
I poured it into the sanitized jar and screwed on the lid.  This was for a wort
stability test. Twenty four hours later nothing had happened.  However, after
forty eight hours the sample appeared to be fermenting.  After a few days the
apparent fermentation stopped and there was a white layer of something in the
bottom of the jar.  I assumed that a wild yeast had contaminated my wort and
the batch might be ruined.  I just hoped the large starter I pitched could
dominate the wort.  After a few days I placed the sample in the refrigerator.
Last night I finally had the nerve to open it and taste it.  It tasted good,
like a stout should.  Could this have been contamination of brewer's yeast
from my equipment?  I thought I was pretty careful in my sanitation, soaking
everything for at least five minutes in iodophor solution.  I brew outside and
collected the wort outside so I figured an airborne wild yeast had landed in
my wort.  I figured that maybe AlK had something after all in not wanting to
brew in the summer.  Is there much chance that my contamination was a wild
yeast that produced good results?  A Lambic stout?

Curious in Grapevine,

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:32:47 +0100
From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com>
Subject: Re: pH and Temperature; Brix

Peter Gilbreth writes:
>And Mort was right when he suggested that Lyn Krugers quote
>>Governing principal in fermentation:
>>The rate of fermentation will depend on the rate and extent of yeast
>>growth."
>was intended for a normal pitching rate of 10 to 20 M/ml cells. When I
asked
>her about whether to use the primary or secondary sediments for subsequent
>pitchings I had to explain that I was looking at 5 to 15 gallon batch
sizes.
>But do you mean that we can simply pitch 7 grams of dried yeast per gallon
>and forget aeration? Is yeast growth not important?

No, I would certainly not recommend pitching 150M cells/ml with no O2.
Sorry if I seemd to imply that. My point was simply that fermentation in
fresh wort proceeds very quickly with a large population of non-growing
cells. I'm looking into the flavour effects of this type of fermentation
but don't have enough information at this point to offer any insights.
There are potential commercial applications for this type of fermentation
but I doubt it would ever be of interest to many home brewers.

Cheers,
Mort O'Sullivan
Edinburgh, Scotland



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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:50:54 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Down South Hops

Hello All,

Just wondering if after all the hype in BT about the New Zealand hops if
anyone had run out and bought any? (I did!!) But, I am just getting caught
up with other planned brewing and was wondering if anyone has had any recent
experiences with these new and supposed wonderful hops?

I purchased, and am planning on using in a red ale, (if there is such a
thing) some Stricklbract and Green Bullet hops. I read all about these and
other newer hop varieties in the recent Zymurgy Hops Special Issue, and in a
recent Brewing Techniques and was curious to try them out for myself.

I am brewing with these hops tomorrow regardless, but, if anyone has any
experience and testimony that they want to share with the gang I am sure it
will be well received.

Thanks, and looking forward to a FRESH thread,

Marc

=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



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Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 22:05:32 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: Re:Acidifying Sparge Water

In HBD 2788  Jeff Pharr asked about acidifying sparge water.

Jeff: The easiest way is to get a small supply of 88% food grade phosphoric
or lactic acid. Most home-brew shops carry the lactic acid. It takes only a
few drops to acidify a few gallons. The main trick is add the acid a few
drops at a time to the cold water, stir very well, wait for a minute or so
and then check the pH. Don't be tempted to rush it or add too much or you
will over-acidify it.

Jim Bentson



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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 00:59:23 -0000 
From: "Ackland, Tony (RTD)" <Tony.Ackland at riotinto.com.au>
Subject: Melbourne Homebrew Clubs

Would any of you helpful types know of Homebrew clubs operating in
Melbourne, Australia ?
TIA,

Tony

Tony.Ackland at riotinto.com


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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 04:24:51 -0700
From: Douglas Price TQO <dprice at tqs.com>
Subject: RE:  Beer Stone

Richard writes:
>I've had similar problems with something I've been told is "beer stone".
>I now clean my carboys with hot CLR (as seen on TV !), which, like
>vinegar, is acidic, before I sanitize them.
>>What is this "beer stone" stuff ?


Beer stone is a mysterious affliction caused by the lacto-basilisk
bacteria.  While viscosity and mouthfeel will be increased dramatically,
your beer will most likely not be ruined.   =^)

(For the mythology impaired:  the basilisk is a legendary creature whose
gaze would turn people to stone.)

Doug Price
Tigard, OR
_please reply to gazer at aracnet.com_


******************************************
"Until I learned that one step forward
       would take you further on,
          than a thousand back 
or a million that aren't your own..."
                 --C. Walker
******************************************


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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:38:56 -0400
From: Steve Zabarnick <steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil>
Subject: Announcing Third Dayton Beerfest Competition

The DRAFT homebrew club is pleased to announce that the Third Dayton
Beerfest Homebrew Competition will be held on Saturday, September 12, 1998.
Entries are due between Aug 25 and Sept 4. Detailed information, along with
on-line entry and judge registration, can be found on the competition web
page: http://hbd.org/users/draft/daybeerfest.html

Last year there were well over 100 entries, and the best of show award went
to a brewer from Texas. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place ribbons will be awarded in
major categories, as well as several beautiful wood plaques.

If you are unable to enter via the net, contact Bat Bateman for entry
materials:
Bat Bateman (batman at erinet.com)
207 Zimmerman
New Carlisle, OH 45344
(937) 845-0572

If you plan to attend, there will be a tour of the NEW Miami Trails
Microbrewery on Saturday afternoon, followed by a foodfest with the DRAFT
club at the Dayton Canoe Club in the evening.




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 06:53:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gary Shewchuk <gshewchu at yahoo.com>
Subject: Bad Infection

Well, another new situation in my new house. On saturday I bottled a
batch of weiss beer and racked the the other batch into the same
secondary after a rinse. Yesterday I checked how everything was doing
and much to my dismay I have the white slime thing going on in all of
the bottles and the secondary. I've been brewing for a couple of years
now without a real infection problem. I just recently moved out to the
country. I have a well and water softener. I'm pretty picky about
sanitation. Any ideas? Could the well and softener be the culprit? I
did all of the work in my basement/furnace room which contains the
softener/sump. Could there be just too much airborn junk in the air? I
also have a dehumidifier down there.  I've got a barley wine to bottle
soon (no signs of infection in the secondary right now it was done
before I moved) and I can't relax not knowing where source of the
problem is! 
Gary Shewchuk
Gshewchu at yahoo.com





_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:28:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Tom Barnet <barnets at physics.auburn.edu>
Subject: yeast collection from primary


Hello all,
	I'm interested in harvesting the yeast sediment from a primary, but
i'm not sure how long i can keep it before reuse.  The main problem here 
is that i may make 5 gallons of pilsner now, and not want to make another 
pils for a month or two. How long will the collected yeast remain 
healthy? (i'm collecting it in a sterilized glass container and 
refrigerating). Thanks.  Tom Barnett.


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Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:55:57 -0500
From: Shane at UH.EDU
Subject: RE: Patron Saint of Brewing

John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at mail.med.cornell.edu> writes:

> Anyone out there know who the patron saint of Brewing or Beer is (if
> there is one)???

I believe there are a few that would qualify, but the most prominent one is
St. Arnold. He's even got a brewery in Houston.  Here's his story:
http://www.saintarnold.com/legend.htm.  Here's the text for the sake of the
digest:

- ---The Legend of St. Arnold---
Saint Arnold was born to a prominent Austrian family in 580 in the Chateau
of Lay-Saint-Christophe in the old French diocese of Toul, north of Nancy.
He married Doda with whom he had many sons, two of whom were to become
famous: Clodulphe, later called Saint Cloud, and Ansegis who married Begga,
daughter of Pepin de Landen. Ansegis and Begga are the
great-great-grandparents of Charlemagne, and as such, Saint Arnold is the
oldest known ancestor of the Carolingian dynasty.

Saint Arnold was acclaimed bishop of Metz, France, in 612 and spent his holy
life warning peasants about the dangers of drinking water. Beer was safe,
and "from man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world." The people
revered Arnold. In 627, Saint Arnold retired to a monastery near Remiremont,
France, where he died on August 16, 640.

In 641, the citizens of Metz requested that Saint Arnold's body be exhumed
and ceremoniously carried to Metz for reburial in their Church of the Holy
Apostles. During this voyage a miracle came to pass in the town of
Champignuelles. The tired porters and followers stopped for a rest and
walked into a tavern for a drink of their favorite beverage. Regretfully,
there was only one mug of beer to be shared, but that mug never ran dry and
all of the thirsty pilgrims were satisfied.

Saint Arnold is recognized by the Catholic Church as the Patron Saint of
Brewers.
- ---End Legend---


Hope that helps!
Shane Brauner
Shane at uh.edu



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Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:10:55 -0400
From: Michael Tucker <mtucker at unpublisher.com>
Subject: Re: Marketing/Tasting


>but unless I hear some good words from HBD, or a friend,
>or happen to taste the beer in a restaurant or at a 'fest - it's just
going to
>have to wait on the shelf.  That's sad because there are undoubtedly some
great
>beers out there that deserve recognition.

And how are you ever going to find out unless you try a bottle once in
awhile?  Really, a couple of bucks, even $6-$8 for a 6-pack isn't much of
an investment to taste a new beer once in awhile.  I think part of
supporting the micro market means trying new and different beers as you
discover them, afterall, it is a pretty trivial investment.....  just my
opinion......YMMV    :-)


- ---
Michael R. Tucker
Consultant
Web Developer


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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:24:07 -0400
From: Wayne_Kozun at otpp.com
Subject: re: Patron Saint of Beer

It appears there is no clear answer on this one.  According to a
tongue-in-cheek web site I found
(http://members.aol.com/stadrian/church.htm) the patron saint of beer is
St. Adrian.  The following is from this web site:

"The brewing fraternity...appropriated,
(as did) all Medieval guilds of workmen, a patron saint.
It was St. Adrian, whose day appears in the calendar on
Sept. 8th, who, for some reason not apparent,
has been chosen patron saint of the brewing fraternity."

The catholic church has a web site where they have a listing of patron
saints (http://www.catholic.org/saints/index.shtml).  According to this web
site Adrian is the patron saint of butchers and soldiers.  In the list for
brewers they give three names:Augustine of Hippo, Luke and St Nicholas of
Myra.  However, when you look at the detailed writeups of these saints they
are patrons of other professions and it does not list brewing.  For
example, St. Nicholas (aka Santa Claus) is patron saint of bakers.  Perhaps
due to the similarity of baking and brewing the church thought he could
cover brewing as well.




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:22:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: courtesy; lag time; logs 'n' lipids; Plutchakian Abasement

A quote: "I'm somehow starting to associate this name with unsupportable
nonsense."  I'd sooner not see such comments in the HBD.

Sure, I disagree with Peter some, and he sometimes seems too self-assured.

But he's posting what he thinks, and listening to others, and that's what
the HBD is about.  He's publicly admitted being wrong at least three
times, and that's more than some of our best-beloved have ever done.

 - - - - - - - - - -
In the yeast thread, Peter Gilbreath said:
>What I do see is a lot of evidence that points me to believe that O2 sats
>do indeed influence the length of lag.

and Steve Alexander replies:
>What I  see are a lot of references that relate lag to delays in producing
>permeability enzymes, accounting for shock excretion, osmotic pressure
>changes and metabolic changes

I feel we need to distinguish between the formally-defined "lag" phase,
where the yeast are acclimating themselves to the new environment, and the
lag that most brewers talk about.  "Brewer's lag" is a combination of the
formal "lag" plus the time it takes for fermentation products to build up.

A lot of this argument comes from posters (and sources) switching between
formal lag and brewer's lag without saying so, in some cases without even
realizing it.  This happens partly because you can't explain brewer's lag
without formal lag, so they get conflated.

Brewer's lag is greatly increased by underpitching, which forces the yeast
to reproduce a lot before fermentation is noticeable.  Underpitching is
endemic to our hobby, and was worse a few years ago (when many of the
sources were writing).

In an environment of underpitched wort, O2 is probably the biggest factor
influencing brewer's lag.  Other things influence formal lag.

Once we're pitching proper levels of healthy yeast, oxygen may no longer
be the major factor in brewer's lag.

This isn't all footnoted and scientifically formulated, but it seems to
agree with the data from both of you, and with what I've learned from
other sources.

 - - - - - - - - - -
>From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: re Yeast Concentration Prior to Fermentation Stage

>This growth phase seems to be called the "EXPONENTIAL" not "LOGARITHMIC"
>phase by everyone else.

Everyone except Andy Walsh and Wayne Little (1997 HBD), Al Korzonas
(Homebrewing vI), A Duke University study guide on microbial growth (on
the web), Jeremy H. Toyn ("Basic yeast methods," Methods in Molecular and
Cellular Biology v5#5), and Wolfgang Kunze in Technology Brewing and
Malting: "the phase of exponential or logarithmic growth, abbreviated
to log phase."

Just to pick a nit.


>I will need a reference to
>really swallow the story that yeast actually WAIT, delaying division until a
>"proper" lipid level is developed.

How 'bout George DePiro this January, HBD 2611:
>Oxygen is used by yeast to produce oleic acid and sterols ... The most
>sterol a yeast cell can contain is about 1% by weight.  A yeast cell must
>contain > 0.1% sterol in order to remain viable.
 ...
[Starting at 1%] When the cell buds, the daughter cell and mother cell will
>each have about 0.5% sterol.   Two more divisions gets each cell down to
>0.125% sterol.  Because the cell needs at least 0.1% to live, it won't
>divide anymore.

I read this to say that, if the yeast are sterol-depleted, they won't
divide until they build it up to proper (not necessarily maximum) levels.
If they're having to synthesize the sterols using dissolved oxygen,
they'll take a while doing that before they start dividing.


 - - - - - - - - - -
Joel Plutchak wrote:
>Oh gods of brewing, I approach ye on bended knee.  (Was that OK?)

Lisa is displeased.  ZOT!  You owe the Oracle a homegrown hop cone.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 98 08:54 PDT
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Cell Counting

The scientific notation and mg/ml stuff makes me crazy (lazy brain). I store 
recovered yeast under boiled distilled water in *Quart* jars in the fridge. 
I normally run the stuff through one wash cycle as described on the Wyeast 
page (www.wyeastlab.com).

So, when it settles out I can readily see that I have from 4 up to 16 oz of 
"slurry". Is it possible for someone to just eyeball that and know how many 
of those little buggers are there - just approximately? I mean, if I have 
12-16 oz of slurry, do I need to pitch the whole thing for _optimal_ pitch 
rates in a 5 gallon batch? Or can I split it 2 or 3 ways and _still_ get the 
optimum. It makes a difference because if it splits, I get more 
fermentations per generation (less mutation/infection/hassle).

Now, where was I? Oh yeah, one bazillion and 1, one bazillion and 2, one baz....

Charley (counting yeast instead of sheep) in N. Cal




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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 21:47:59 +0100
From: jshope at bioserver.vsb.usu.edu
Subject: hop growth characteristics

I planted several rhizomes (Cascade, Fuggles, Kent Goldings) this spring.  
They are now about 14 feet tall and have small "flower like" structures forming 
on the top 1-2 feet.  They do not appear like cones.  I "thought" that these 
plants were dioecious.  Any advice?



<nofill>
Joe Shope
Head Brewer/Bottle Washer
Apostate Brewing Co.
Crash Valley, UT

Home of "Revelator Dopplebock"


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Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 08:56:00 EDT
From: "Mitchell, Vincent (OGP-Tempe)" <vjm at ogpnet.com>
Subject: Funky after taste


First a hardy hello to all after a long absence!!
Now to the problem.  In the last 2-3 batches I have ended up with a dirty 
dishwater after taste.  I have replaced tubing performed acid lye baths on 
both carboys, cleaned and recleaned my buckets...... this leaves the 
bottles.  How is the best way to clean bottles?  Also what is the best way 
to clean plastic?  I am grabbing at straws.


Vince Mitchell
mitchells at inficad.com
vjm at ogpnet.com


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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:43:50 -0500 
From: "Lutzen, Karl F." <kfl at umr.edu>
Subject: Patron Saint of brewing

As much as I would like to accept the role of "Patron Saint of Brewing" 
as Pat Babcock suggested, this role is already filled.  There are
several others that have posted that the patron saint is St. Arnold,
or St. Adrian. These too are incorrect. A brief search on the Catholic 
web page (I don't search there often), shows us that the patron saint 
of brewers is St. Augustine of Hippo.  

Here is the URL for the total scoop:
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saints/augustinehippo.html

To quote a snippet: 

St. Augustine of Hippo is the patron of brewers because of his 
conversion from a former life of loose living, which included 
parties, entertainment, and worldly ambitions. His complete 
turnaround and conversion has been an inspiration to many who 
struggle with a particular vice or habit they long to break.

<snip>

His feast day is August 28th.  So plan a good one!


=====================================================================
Karl F. Lutzen                   | Computing and Information Services 
Scientific Programmer Analyst II | University of Missouri - Rolla
E-Mail: kfl at umr.edu              | 114 Math-Computer Science Bldg. 
Fax: (573) 341-4216              | 1870 Miner Circle 
Voice: (573) 341-4841            | Rolla, MO 65409-0360
===================================================================== 


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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:34:23 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Forced versus Over Pitched Fermentations

Brewsters:

Jim Liddil says about my comments on using forced fermentations
as a way of getting to an estimate of the FG:

"I have to disagree with this and wonder if by chance you did not read 
the
followup post I wrote after George DePiro's on force fermentation."

That is entirely posssible. The problem here is that we seem to be
using the same term "forced" for two entirely different techniques.
I have always read and used the term "forced fermentation" to mean
a fermentation at a higher temperature than normal ( like 80F) which
was the source of my comment.  You and George DeP seem to be
using it for the technique of overpitching a small test sample to get the

fermentation done more quickly ( presumably at the normal
fermentation temperature?) I agree that if you can finish the
fermentation in 4 or 5 hours and at say 60F, there will be little problem

of bacterial contamination unless your yeast source is infected and
then it could give you about the same results.  If on the otherhand,
you overpitch and also ferment at say 80F, then you may have a
problem if the yeast is the source of contamination.

Like you, I have done natural lactic acid fermentation.  Unlike you,
I find that these thermophilic bacteria can be very rapid. Using malt
as the source of lactic bacteria and holding at around 100F, I can
generate 0.1N lactic acid overnight.  Based on this experience, if you
have a contaminated fermentation and carry it out at 80F, you can have
substantial participation of the lactic bacteria in the fermentation with

an unknown effect on the FG, since the fermentation product is 
different..
The point is, this is just one more of those indeterminate errors I was
commenting on when using hydrometry as a way of determining if a
fermentation is finished.


Which brings me to the next point:

I said:

>Actually you don't care what the FG is supposed to be, but as AlK
>points out to know "Is the beer done?"  This is another way of saying
>"Are there any more fermentable sugars in the beer?"
>
Jim Said:

"No Dave YOU don't care what the final gravity is." 


Not in this case I don't and neither should you care what the
actual value of the FG is, since a *steady* FG is an
indication that either the beer is done or you have a stuck
fermentation. In your case, a *match* of the high pitched sample
and the main batch could indicate a finished fermentation. For other
reasons, perhaps, we do care what the final FG is as it relates to
alcohol content and organoleptic properties.

Jim said:

"That's why Miller and AB still do them"

Interestingly, you make the same point I made.  If you make
the same beer day after day ( or is it hour after hour?) then some
inferences from the FG can be drawn. My point is, as Homebrewers
that is exactly what we do not do and that makes hydrometry a poor
method for us. Besides, AB can waste a few liters of beer
on the high accuracy hydrometers. We don't want to.

WIth hydrometry there can be a question  in the back of the mind -
( as sometimes happens when using FG as an indicator)

"is this fermentation stuck or is my beer really done?"

Note that with Clinitest you always know if the fermentation is
finished. Which is my main reason ( as well as the small sample and
low cost and ease of use) for recommending Clinitest to determine
if your beer is done.

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ
Dave_Burley at Compuserve.com  


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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:53:25 -0600
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Re:  Patron Saint of Brewing/Beer???

John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at mail.med.cornell.edu> asked:
> Anyone out there know who the patron saint of Brewing or Beer is (if
> there is one)???

John,

You have a few to choose from.

There's St. Bridget (Brigid) who turned water into beer in Ireland.
St. Columbanus who was born in Ireland, but did the loaves and fishes
routine in Germania with bread and beer.  And probably more renown is
Gambrinus, but there is no consensus on who he was or how he became
the protector of beer.  One of the stories of Gambrinus identifies him
as an Egyptian diety, but I didn't even want to get into "beer gods".
That would be a whole other topic.
(Reference: Beer for Pete's Sake by Pete Slosberg)

Good Luck & Good Beer!

Brian Rezac
Membership Development Director
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO  80302
303 447-0816, ext. 121
brian at aob.org        http://beertown.org




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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:28:10 -0500
From: Fred Mayfield <fmayfiel at flash.net>
Subject: Blue Heron Recipe Request

While in San Francisco recently I was introduced to a Blue Heron from 
the Mendecino Brewing Co. REALLY liked it! Would really like to brew a 
batch if anyone has a recipe. Recipes can be emailed to 
mayfield at texas.net

Thanks!

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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:57:22 -0700
From: "LordPeter" <BARLEYWINE at prodigy.net>
Subject: Nonflocker





Sam writes:
" 
Peter Gilbreth <barleywine at prodigy.net> wrote a paragraph I found
confusing.  Was Lyn saying that using sediment from either fermenter
(primary or secondary) would select over time for non-flocculent yeast?
I'm not arguing yea or nay, I just didn't quite follow your meaning.
"  
Sorry I was not clear. I meant that repitching from
the secondary would select for non-flocs, not the primary.
 
 
C ya. Pete
 



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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:57:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kenneth Sullivan <Kenneth.Sullivan at Central.Sun.COM>
Subject: Basement BrewPub & The Building Inspector

Greetings HBrs,

In January I decided to finish my basement and build a brew room and
Free Pub.  It's August and it's almost finished!  I have a Valley mill
mounted on my countertop beside my capper, bins for grain storage on
the wall, and a 2-tier RIMS stand with converted kegs and a Lauter tun
from Sabco (very nice!).  I ran into problems during the many inspections
from the building dept.  Since I planned to connect a hose from the sink
faucet to fill the sparge keg and to cool the wort with my CFWC, the 
building inspector insisted that I install reverse-pressure vaccum breakers
on the faucets.  Now I have this ugly (sprinkler system type, bell topped)
vaccum breaker snaking up then down my wall!  They were afraid my beer my
contaminate the water!!!  I have this nice steel rack to hold the kegs in
the corner and had mounted an Italian Ring Burner (natural gas) on it.
The Inspector had a cow when he saw it and said unless it was 'UL approved'
I couldn't attach it to the NG line!  The last thing I want to do is burn 
down my house!  I have a CO detector, a fire/smoke detector, a NG detector,
a firebox around the burner, a 4'x8' steel plate on the closest wall, and
a fire extinguisher 3' away.  They wouldn't let me do it!  Fortunately I
have talked about my 'FreePub' to the mayor and to the Chief of Police.
They are as anxious as I am to start pouring beer.  After they spoke to the
other powers to be, the building inspector advised me to remove the burner
and let him inspect the place.  That way he could pass the inspection and
I could do whatever I wanted to.

So just a word of advice to you basement brewers.. hide all of your brewing
gadgets until after the inspector aproves the construction. They just don't
understand.

kjsulli at central.sun.com



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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:58:53 -0700
From: "LordPeter" <BARLEYWINE at prodigy.net>
Subject: Yeast Combos

Recently there was discussion on good hop combonations. I also remember a
discussion at 1st round judging for this years AHA nationals about combining
3068 (Wyeast Weihenstephan) with a Yeast Labs (I don't remember which)
strain with excellent results. Anybody else have any favorite combinations
of yeast?

Pete



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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:54:07 -0700
From: "LordPeter" <BARLEYWINE at prodigy.net>
Subject: Yeast and O2 and such

Steve Alexander
>
Mathews&van Holde, 'Biochemistry', Benjamin/Cummins Publ. 2nd edition,pp 12,
"Lipids are a chemically diverse group of compounds that are classified
together because of their apolar structure which gives them very low
solubility in the aqueous environment of the cell".
These would not be alcohol or ether solvents, Fats are lipids, but the
Seibel definition doesn't really say that does it ?  Please cross out the
Seibel definition and replace it with something correct.
>
Ok. I'm not a chemist or a biologist, just a brewer. My Bad.
>Steve
This growth phase seems to be called the "EXPONENTIAL" not "LOGARITHMIC"
phase by everyone else.
>
Not a mathemitician. I guess I don't fully understand the difference.

log-a-rithm:...the exponent that indicates the power to which a number is
raised to produce a given number (the ~of 100 to the base 10 is 2)

ex-po-nen-tial:...1) of or relating to an exponent 2) involving a variable
in an exponent (10X in an ~ expression) 3) expressible or approximately
expressible by an exponential function (an ~ growth rate)

The last given definition clearly shows that EXPONENTIAL is the correct
term. My bad.

>Steve
>"Under normal brewery conditions the factor that usually limits yeast
growth
>is the amount of oxygen available in the wort."
Well sterols and UFAs really, which are dependent for synthesis on oxygen,
but
can also be absorbed from wort..
>

It was my understanding that this is still rather unclear and it still needs
verification through more study.

>Steve
Sterol and (maybe) UFAs ar the limiting factor, whether synthesized of
absorbed
from wort lipids.  Also remember that the pitched yeast ideally have enough
sterol to divide ~3 times w/o other sterol synthesis or absorption - so in a
sense the pitched yeast state is a limiting factor to growth too.
>

I think that this sterol found in freshly harvested yeast is the precursor
to the sterol the yeast are needing for the lipid building,
(squalene--->progesterol) so in this sense the ability of the yeast to
convert is limited by oxygen.

>Steve
>2) The yeast will not begin the logarithmic growth phase until they have
>proper amounts of aforementioned ergosterol.
I strongly suspect this is nearly correct, *but* what you are stating above
is
a critical fact of yeast metabolism if true - and so I will need a reference
to
really swallow the story that yeast actually WAIT, delaying division until a
"proper" lipid level is developed.
>

I gave you the only reference I have.

Steve,

>My guess<
Your words
> based on competition and so evolutionary pressure is that yeast *may*
delay reproduction in the presence of sufficient O2, and even more
doubtful, that yeast *may* delay reproduction until wort sterols are
consumed. Either/both of these are different from what you state - and
different consequences accrue.

Yeah *may*be.

>I feel that this theory of a delay is highly speculative.<

Mine, or yours? Both? Hmm.

>It is fully possible that yeast split as soon as
they can grab enough sterol(and many other necessities).  Perhaps you have a
source for this delayed division metabolism - I haven't seen one - but
would love to.>

As for my Siebel references, I guess I am a little foolish to believe I
could have learned as much as I thought I did from that $2500 course. I
believed what I read and what I was told. Those came straight out of my
course work
there. I've only had simple college chemistry and micro and such. If I
offended anybody, well, maybe they needed offended.
Doin' the best I can with what I got.

Pete




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Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 03:41:40 -0700
From: "Peter Gilbreth" <BARLEYWINE at prodigy.net>
Subject: Lactic Acid; Acid Wort; Keg'o'charge; ABG 

I have measured the Joplin MO city water at a pH range of about 7 to 8.2. In
15 gallons I have to add about 10 ml 88% lactic acid to reach a pH of about
5.7 (which is my sparge target.)
Paul Niebergall about 2.5 hours north of me in Kansas City says:
>My water supply has an extremely high pH (generally in
the neighborhood of 10.0 to 10.5 - depending on the time of the year it
is).  The day before I brew, I fill a clean, converted,  bbl beer keg
with about 12 gallons of carbon-filtered tap water.  I then add lactic
acid until the pH drops below 7.  It doesn*t take much - usually 3 to 4 mL
is sufficient.  >

It would be interesting if we compared water reports. Does anyone have any
ideas
on this discrepency?

On a different but related question: What are the results to the mash, the
boil, and the ferment when your mash pH is, say 4.8? I think Greg Noonan
wrote that 4.8 is the minimum pH that a mash should be started at.

And now for something completely different:

I sometimes carbonate kegs with a Gulfstream airstone. I think it is a .5
micron stone. With one of these (meticulously sanitized {is that an
oxymoron}) attached to the gas-in tube you can carbonate a cold keg in about
15 or 20 minutes. It gives a fine tight head that will nicely lace your
glass. You add pressure slowly until you are at your calculated level (which
I need a chart for because I don't even know what Perl is.)
I take the stone out the next day (is it true that the CO2 needs to "bind"
to the beer?) before I try to CPB it. Also, it's nice to have a relief valve
on that keg. Otherwise you either have to push *very* hard on the lid or
take a homebrew shower.

>Mike Allred <mballred at xmission.com writes:
Subject: American Brewers Guild-Adv homebrew course
I am seriously thinking about attending the American Brewers Guild 2 day
Advanced Homebrew Course.  I have a few questions of the collective first.
Has anyone here ever attended the course, if so what did you think.  Was it
worth the $160 + hotel + travel costs?  How detailed and indepth is the beer
faults tasting section?  Is this just a 'boil/pitch/stir' course or do they
get indepth into the real cutting edge stuff?
>
I went to the ABG course you described. Jay Prahl was the instuctor. KCMO,
spring, 1996.

1)I've paid more for less ;'}
2)The beer man was about three hours late. It was basically a tasting. You
could do as well with one good beer judge. It was cool when a few of the
students passed around some homebrew.
3) I did learn a lot. However, what I learned I later realized was all in
the better brewing texts (and I don't mean the $140 ones. Just ask Al.)

But if you've already read a few texts and still have confusion this course
can straighten it out for you. (??????)

>Mike
Last night I read the article in Brewing Techniques about Sahti Beer and I
was just fascinated by the idea of 'no boil' brewing
>
I would try a small batch first.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming:
A few have posted recently about using iodophor. I do this:
Mix 20CC with 5 gal cold water. (I don't even know what concentration this
is, but it gets pretty brown.) I figure on a *very* short exposure time.
Use this for sanitizing and then rinse with boiling water.

I even do this with carboys. I use a sanitized funnel to pour a half gallon
of 208F water into a sanitized carboy. I pick it up quickly and start
swirling the water around so that the thermal load is distibuted well, while
rinsing off the iodophor. I have no soapy flavors in my beers since I
started doing this. (That hefeweizen didn't taste soapy until I got the
judge forms back.)
If you buy a liter (this shouldn't be more than around $12-$15 unless you're
getting ripped) and this oughta last you a long time.

Peter Gilbreth




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Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 07:11:59 -0400
From: "Nate Wahl" <cruiser at dcache.net>
Subject: My Philler Web Page

I had a class in Instructional Materials Design, and needed an HTML
project, so I made up some directions for using Phill's Counter Pressure
Philler and put it on a Web page.  Considering that the Philler
instructions for assembly, use and cleaning all come on one page, this may
help make it easier to understand.

If anybody is interested on how the thing looks and works, take a look. 
Feedback is also welcome (but I did get an A!)  BTW, I did get permission
from Phil (a class requirement), but I'm not related in any way blah
blah...

It's hopefully at:    http:www.dcache.net/~cruiser/philler/philler.html

Regards,
Nate Wahl
On anti-Inflamitories, so beerless, and very sad.


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Date: Sat, 08 Aug 98 09:01:19 PDT
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: Steeping crystal malt

Hi all,

Hans and Peter are wondering about steeping crystal malt rather than 
mashing it.

In my very recent experince, at least one brand of crystal malt (Pauls) 
is quite
starchy.  I don't see why other maltsters product should be much 
different.
Steeping it in the boil kettle (as you would do for extract brewing) 
lends a
permanent starch haze to the beer thus made (the beer itself, made from 
extract
and Pauls crystal, is iodine positive!).

I don't understand why some people would be afraid of mashing crystal 
malt.
The melanoidins in it (that give it its special caramel flavor) will not 
be broken
down in the mash (they aren't sugar, so amylases won't effect them).  
Mort's
excellent post a month or so ago showed us that the lack of 
fermentability
of crytsal malt is not effected by the mash, either.

Perhaps there is some concern that astringent material will be extracted
from the malt, like when mashing highly roasted grains and malts.  As 
with
these very dark grains, if you add them at mash out you will not get the
color contribution you may have needed, and will therefore have to use
more to deepen the color of the wort adequately.  Since you are adding 
more,
the wort may end up with the same degree of harshness that it would have 
had
if you had fully mashed a smaller amount.  Is there anybody out there who
 has
done a side-by-side, where the only difference between the two beers was
when the dark grain was added to the process?

Have fun!

George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:21:56 -0400
From: David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Re: Force Conditioning

Al Writes;
>I urge everyone to print out Alan's excellent tables that were
recently reposted, set the CO2 pressure to the one you need for
the actual temperature and volumes and then rock the keg until
the CO2 stops flowing.  Actually, since I've personlly made the
following mistake more than once, let me suggest that you
disconnect the gas line from the keg during shaking.  Sure,
that bubbling sounds cool, but what do you do when beer starts
climbing up your CO2 hose back towards the regulator?<

Excellent advice, and timely too!  Last night I tried Robert Arguello's
method to condition a keg, leaving the gas line connected while rocking
the keg. After reading Al's post this morning, I took the keg fitting
off of my gas line and turned on the CO2--and got a handful of beer.  A
similar check of the CO2 manifold showed no signs of liquid,
fortunately.  I'll be removing the gas before rocking from now on....

I pressured the keg using the pressure table data, 8 lbs. at  36 degrees,
for five minutes and the beer was very nicely conditioned, with a fine
creamy head as well.  I have in the past always force conditioned with
the keg oriented vertically (at 30psi), but the results were not as nice
as this horizontal method seems to provide.  It looks to me like it
isn't necessary to blast 30psi to get good results with the line
connected continuously.  

Also, I had the gas fitting oriented up.....  I dunno, seemed to work
OK, except for beer in
the gas line.  Having the gas fitting down may put even more pressure on
forcing beer back up the gas line.

So, next time I'll try this:  Twice the recommended gas pressure once a
minute for 4-5 minutes while doing the horizontal mambo and we'll see
what happens.


Cheers!
David Sherfey
Warwick, NY


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Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:48:51 -0400
From: Rick Theiner <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Sanitation, sterilization, and other organisms

>From: marli at bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
>also, not to minimize the concern for housekeeping, but none of us
>really need to "sterilize" anything.  We are only
>sanitizing/disinfecting to the point to give the yeast a head start. 

Thought I'd throw in my own $0.02 in support of this statement.  My new
next-door neighbor is a research microbiologist (and is quickly learning
the merits of good beer).  I asked him over to give me some pointers for
a talk on yeast culturing I am preparing for my club, and, to my
surprise, he expressed quite a bit of skepticism about it.  It wasn't
that he didn't believe that it could be done-- it was the purity of the
finished product that he questioned.

Nonetheless, we went through a number of standard procedures, and he
agreed that we had a did a pretty good job, but our chances of purity
were probably 50/50.  As to how I could have been doing this for the
past few years with good results, he replied that it was almost
certainly a matter of population sizes-- what I wanted far outnumbered
what I didn't want, and thus the "bad stuff" was successfully
outcompeted.  He promises that we'll test that hypothesis some weekend
by taking a few brews (one for the microscope and the rest for us) to
the lab to see exactly what is growing in there.

Just thought ya'll would be interested.
- -- 
Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
LOGIC at skantech.com


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---