---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Maltmill Gap Settings ("Marc Battreall")
  RE: Clinitest and Hop Dust ("Timothy Green")
  RE: Sulfite ("O'Brien, Douglas")
  My 1st German Wheat, summer brewing trick (Rod Wellman)
  LordPeter has left the building ;'] ("Peter Gilbreth")
  re: lactic acid ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  homebrew mailing list !!!  http://www.cuy.net/beer (Tom)
  Pizza Pan False Bottom? (Badger Roullett)
  Patron Saint... (SCA) (Badger Roullett)
  Marzen (UPSTOOL)
  reusing yeast cake (Mark Tumarkin)
  Introduction;women and beer ("Dawn Watkins")
  Peach Cider? (Badger Roullett)
  Log vs Exp Growth Phase (Rick Wood)
  WST (Louis Bonham)
  red wine headaches and sulfites ("phil grossblatt")
  Re: Barleywine Conditioning (David Sherfey)
  Stirring a Brew ("Sandy Macmillan")
  Histamine Headache, Flagellation, ("David R. Burley")
  So many beers - so little time. ("Steve Alexander")
  no-boil; sulfite labels; unnatural lead; tapioca (Samuel Mize)
  Tasting Beers From Iveneverheardofit Brewing Works... (Some Guy)
  alternate hop types/vendors, c-tes ("Rolfe, Joe")
  Forced Carbonation (Jack Schmidling)
  CPB's and draft system setup (Peter.Perez)
  RE: Repitching 3 wk. old slurry (Robert Arguello)


There will be a Sunday Digest this week...

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:39:53 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Maltmill Gap Settings

Keith asks in HBD 2792 about his MaltMill:

>What is the standard gap. I just started to play with the adjustments and I
>don't know where it was initially think I remember JS posting that it was
>near .045?  I also remember Dave B. and others got good results from
>making the first pass at .08 and the second for .06, but that may have been
>for 2-row and not 6-row?


Keith,

I have a MaltMill also and posed this question to Jack S. when I bought it.
He referred me to the documentation that accompanied the mill and also
answered my question direct. Yes, it is .045.
There is a small dot on the frame just above the knurled gap adjusting knob
along with a vertical line etched in the knob itself. If you line these two
up, it should be .045 (give or take a .001 or so). I checked mine with a
standard feeler gauge and it was "pert neer" right on the money. I don't
know how old your mill is and whether or not these marks are on your model,
but hopefully they are. (Help me out here Jack?)

Good Luck,

Marc


========================
Captain Marc D.Battreall
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com






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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:36:59 -0400
From: "Timothy Green" <TimGreen at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Clinitest and Hop Dust

Dave Burley writes that the Clinitest kit is an excellent way to determine
when fermentation has completed. Without beating the horse again, could
someone explain why I should spend an additional $30-$40 of my hard earned
money on something that I am currently doing with a hydrometer every time I
make a batch of beer. It seems very simple to me. If the SG doesn't change
over 2-3 samples 2-3 days apart, fermentation is finished. Why buy something
else?

Ryan McCammon talks about his problems with hop pellet particles clogging up
his works so to speak. Ryan, I use pellets as much as I use whole hops. What
I have found is that if you buy a pair of women's stockings, wash them 5 or
6 times, cut them up into 8" sections and put the hop pellets in a section
and tie both ends closed tightly it should cure your problem. The mesh of
the nylon stocking is loose enough of the boiling wort to get to the hops,
but tight enough to keep most of the sludge inside. Hopefully this will help
you with your problem.

Tim Green

Mead is great...
Beer is good...
(But beer is much faster)



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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:15:47 -0400
From: "O'Brien, Douglas" <Douglas.O'Brien at geocan.nrcan.gc.ca>
Subject: RE: Sulfite

> David R. Burley said:
> 
> > However, my point was, I know of no problems with the low levels
> > of sulfites in commercial wines. 
> 
My wife suffers from asthmatic reactions to many wines, particularly
whites.  We have found that American, Canadian and Australians 
wines are particularly bad, while French and Italian wines cause no
problems.

>...Interestingly most people complain
> > of these headaches with red wine but can drink white wine just fine.
> > When bottled, white wine often contains 3 or 4 times as much
> > sulfite as red wine.  I suspect  "red wine gives me a headache" is
> > part of the food additive hysteria that has been fomented in this
> country
> 
My impression was that the headaches that people get from red wine
are from a sensitivity to the tannins.  This is particularly true for
those
who suffer from migraines.

Doug



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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:46:52 -0500
From: Rod Wellman <rmw at williams.com>
Subject: My 1st German Wheat, summer brewing trick

Thanks to all who responded to my post asking for information on using
Honey in beer.  I've found a few things, but I'm still looking.  I want to
make this section of the web site an informative one!  I'll be heading to
the libarary to look for information, but I'll bet there are a few
experienced brewers on this list who could provide some good technical
information about what exactly honey does as an ingredient in beer.

I've had about a half-dozen people taste my Honey Porter so far, and they
all go sem to like it. We'll see what the REAL critics say about it when I
take it to the monthly meeting of my Homebrew Club tonight!

I found the discussion below interesting because the next beer I want to
try is an authentic German Wheat.  I've read the German Wheat book from the
"Beer Styles" series.  My disadvantage is that I've never tasted one!  I've
tasted some of those mentioned below...as well as a wheat beer from the
Kansas City-based Boulevard Brewery (which I think is excellent, although I
don't know if it can be called a true Wiessbier, either!).  What would be a
good example of a German Wheat that I could get my hands on?  Where would I
look to get a taste of a true German type Wheat beer, being from a small
Midwestern town?  I can't afford to join one of those beer of the month
clubs (well I can...but the wife's purse strings are only so loose, if you
know what I mean).  Anyone interested in sending me a sample?  I have
brewed a Dunkel which I thought was very good...it definitely had the
banana flavors.  It was one of my most popular, and upon the encouragement
from my local homebrew club, I entered it in a competition.  The judges
liked it, but said it was not a "true to style" dunkel (after reading the
German Wheat booke I'ver learnd more, and I think it was too dark in color
for a Dunkel).  

Any comments are welcome!

I'm currently fermenting my third rendition of an Apricot Cream Ale.  Hard
to keep the temps low enough in the summer...so I'm trying the method of
putting the carboy in a plastic "tub", filling half full of water, and
adding a frozen 2 liter bottle of water twice a day.  So far, temps are
hovering around 68 degrees, after starting at (whoa!) 78 degrees.  For some
reason, this batch really took off fast...started in under 7 hours, even
though I didn't do a starter on the Liquid Wyeast.  Could it be the 78
degree pitching temp, or the fact that I also threw in a package of
Superior Lager dry yeast?  I usually don't do a starter...just hope the
sucker starts within 24 hours and they always have in the past. This one
REALLY took off.  Anyone else tried the above?  Do you wait until the ice
has taken effect before pitching?  Do you think that having some
fermentation activity happen in the 75-78 range for a number of hours will
cause any adverse effects?  Will the cooling process of eventually going
down to 68 degrees have any adverse effects, i.e. "shock" the yeast?  So
far, I haven't noticed that it has...it's still bubbling at a pretty good
pace on the 3rd day.

Rod Wellman 


At 12:53 AM 8/9/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us> says:
>And goes on about wheat beers:
>> Sam Adams, Pete's, Long Trail, Breckenridge ... I have
>> NEVER noticed any bananas or cloves in any of them, although I've
>> looked for those flavors.
>
>I believe those are "American wheat" beers.  They WON'T have the flavors
>that comes in German-style weizen beers.  They're very different, the
>American style is mostly defined by what it doesn't have.
>



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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:53:06 -0700
From: "Peter Gilbreth" <BARLEYWINE at prodigy.net>
Subject: LordPeter has left the building ;']



Dear Collective,

You have all seen many posts from me in the last month or so. Some of them
have been good ones, some of them not so good. I have caught a lot of flack
from various posters. I now see that I've been projection a rather arrogant
image of myself, and I apoligize. I really am a pretty humble guy.

Although I have learned a *lot* about brewing beer over the last three
years, (ABG
weekend course, several brewing texts, BJCP recognized judge, Siebel Short
Course and Brewery Training, and two years of running my father's homebrew
shop, which I have recently left,) there are still many areas which I need
to give a lot of attention to.

 As one private message said in response to my last post and in
corresponence:

Don't discount the value of Seibel.  There is no doubt that it is the
premier
institution of its type in North America.  You have been given a great
infusion of information, but learning to judge the limits of specific
meaning,
and the range of circumstances over which it applies, will take further
work.

I'd say he hit my problem on the head. Or maybe getting hit on the head is
my problem.

 I only recently started following HBD, and I was real proud to be able
to have a significant input in something as cool as this.
Anyway, I got a little sensitive and over-defensive when some other very
opinionated posters challenged me (and insulted me, but so did I.)
 I said some things I wish I hadn't. However, for the record, I hold all of
you in the highest
respect and I don't want to offend you again (if you *were* offended.
nevermind.)

In the future I will be more careful about what and how I post. BTW, I
finally figured out how to get LordPeter off of my mailer (internet idiot)
so from now on you shall address me as Sir Peter :'}

No no, pete is fine.



Cheers.
Peter Gilbreth
barleywine at prodigy.net
www.barleywine.com


AlK, my Tripel (notice the nice spelling: you win) is *very nice* with the
1214. Who else has had good results from 1214? (Belgian Ale; it's on any
package)




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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:08:09 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re: lactic acid

Peter Gilbreth asks "It would be interesting if we compared water 
reports.
Does anyone have any ideas on this discrepency?" when his
water at a pH of 7 to 8.2 takes 10 mL of acid to obtain a pH of 5.7
when someone else's water at pH 10 to 10.5 needs only 3 to 4 mL.
  Does his water reach a final pH of 5.7?? That aside, this would 
indicate
your water is more strongly buffered. Buffer, "a substance
when added to a solution, causes resistance to any change of hydrogen-ion

concentration when either acid or alkali is added."
Simply put, buffers resist change of pH (hydrogen-ion concentration).
One other thing could affect this, method of measurement and accuracy
thereof.
 On the question of the effects of a mash pH of 4.8; that is too
low, under a pH of 5 you start to lose effective break formation.
(I think this is mentioned in "Brewing Lager Beer", maybe not) 


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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:14:25 -0400
From: Tom <maciejewski at mindless.com>
Subject: homebrew mailing list !!!  http://www.cuy.net/beer

Hi there is a homebrew mailing list at http://www.cuy.net/beer/

to get on it send mail to:
    majordomo at cuy.net
in the body of the letter put:
    s ubscribe beer

(dont include the space in the s ubscribe above)

then send it

or check out
http://www.cuy.net/beer/mailer.html
all welcome from novice to master brewer.


if you have any questions email me at tom at cuy.net

- --
http://www.cyberthrill.com/cgi-bin/sponsor/dave169/ricochet.cgi?-026zh
http://www.cuy.net/books/




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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:32:02 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Pizza Pan False Bottom?

Hiya Beer Geeks (Hey! thats me!)

I recently read a couple of things that said something about using
perforated pizza pans from walmart or similar places as a false bottom.  has
anyone done this?  anyone know where to get them other than walmart in the
seattle area?  and would they work well for Sankey Converted kegs? (i still
have to convert mine, and am researching cheap and effective false bottoms..

badger

*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger

Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html

In the SCA: 
Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn




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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:32:30 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Patron Saint... (SCA)

in the SCA we have our own patron saint of brewing.. 

you can view an illuminated story of his life, at the Colleges (an SCA
chapter based on a college campus) website.
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~sca/ and browse down to the middle of the
page.

The College of Saint Bunstable is pleased to have him as our patron.

***************************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger
Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven



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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:31:18 EDT
From: UPSTOOL at aol.com
Subject: Marzen

To the collective,
	
	Long time lurker,relative newbie(15 batches,last 7 all-grain.)
I can't thank everyone enough for all the help. It,s been priceless.

My question regards what will be my first lager,a marzen.

6# German 2-row
2# Munich
1.5# 40L
1# toasted malt
1.5oz Spalt 60 min
 .5oz Tettnanger 30 min
 .5oz Tettnanger steep for 10 min
 
First question is can I do single-temp infusion? I am using a gott so a 
Decotion would be a PITA ( I think, never done one.)

Next the recipe did specifie pellet or whole hops. I prefer pellets.
Does the hop amount sound ok?

For yeast I was considering Wyeast 2206 or 2308.Any thoughts?

Last question is fermentation. What temp do I start it at and how soon do I
drop it.
How long should secondary be and at what temp?

I am not worried about winning any awards. I just want something that tastes
good 

 TIA   Mike Passick 

"experience is what you get, when you don't get what you want"


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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:24:22 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: reusing yeast cake 

Tom writes:

>I'm interested in harvesting the yeast sediment from a primary, but
>i'm not sure how long i can keep it before reuse.  The main problem
here
>is that i may make 5 gallons of pilsner now, and not want to make
another
>pils for a month or two. How long will the collected yeast remain
>healthy? (i'm collecting it in a sterilized glass container and
>refrigerating).

I often reuse the yeast by pitching a new batch onto the yeast cake from
a previous batch. I generally brew the second  batch in a style that can
use the same yeast - a porter or stout following a pale ale or bitter,
etc. This is also a good way to build up a starter for a high gravity
ale (like a barleywine or imperial stout). Obviously, you need to be
careful with sanitation but you are pitching a lot of yeast (we won't
get into what optimal is), so it tends to out compete any nasties that
may be around. I don't do it all the time - for instance I'm now brewing
a hefeweizen - unless I wanted to do a second batch or some other weis
variant I wouldn't use it again . But my next batch will be a cal common
using Wyeast 1056, I plan on following this with a hoppy American wheat
pale ale on the same 1056 yeast cake. My max so far has been three
batches in a row using the same yeast.  I haven't seen any problems so
far, and would highly recommend this procedure.

I haven't tried saving the yeast but many people have reported putting
yeast starters in the fridge for fairly extended periods. This raises
other sanitation issues, but enough people have reported doing it that
you shouldn't have a problem. Obviously you'd want to feed the yeast, do
a starter, when you went to reuse it but that's no biggie.

This technique ties in to the whole starter size/methods thread that has
been going lately. I think you get a lot of the benefits of trying to
create 'optimal size' starters, while avoiding the potential
contamination of stepping up multiple times. I have not noticed any off
tastes from autolysis, trub, break or anything. It seems to create a
very, very clean fermentation. Also, you don't have to decant the
starter to avoid it being a large fraction of your new batch - in effect
you did that when you racked or bottled the previous batch. It's super
easy and has worked well for me, though YMMV.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl



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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:58:03 -0700
From: "Dawn Watkins" <Dawn.Watkins at mci.com>
Subject: Introduction;women and beer

Hello all,

I just joined the list, and thought that I would introduce myself. My name
is Dawn Watkins, and I am just starting to think about trying my hand at
home brewing. I am also a member of the SCA, and would like to at some point
enter one of the competitions there.

At this point I have only made a couple of batches of mead, and I have tried
two batches of cider.

I am interested in trying beer, mostly because it looks like fun.
Unfortunately, I don't care for beer.....I keep trying it, hoping my taste
will change. It's just more bitter than I care for. I do have many friends
who enjoy it (many of whom are women), so if I am successful in brewing a
good batch, there are a lot good homes for it to go to.

I have to confess, that so far this list is way over my head. I just don't
know enough yet to be able to follow a lot of the conversations, but that
should change as soon as I can get my hands on a few good beginners books.

Anyway, nice to meet you all.

Dawn Watkins
wyterayven at aol.com



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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:27:53 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Peach Cider?

Hiya Ciderheads... ok, so you like the beer stuff, maybe a bit more...

I am kinda curious about the thought of making a Peach Cider.  it just
Sounds tasty to me...  any thoughts on formulating a recipie?

what types of yeasts work well with ciders? (dry works best for me)
ratio of Peach Juice to Apple Juice to bring the flavor to the front, but
not over power the brew?  i am not too worried about Fresh peaches etc. i am
thinking of something like 3 gallons of apple cider (jugged from a store,
since i have no access to a cider press) and some frozen concentrate peach
juice and some water..  maybe a pound of honey or two give a smooth finish.

do you hop Ciders?

Never made one, but this hobby never goes stale..

*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger

Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html

In the SCA: 
Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn



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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:38:07 +1000
From: Rick Wood <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: Log vs Exp Growth Phase

Hell HBD and Peter,
Isn't posting to the HBD just wonderful!  I try to avoid it as there are
many picky people - the HBD Police!

I believe the terms logrithmic phase and exponential phase are
equivalent and can be used interchangably.  Although I am not a
microbiologist (I am a chemist), I have taken about 15 hours of college
courses in microbiology (general, pathogenic and marine) and grow
bacteria on a daily basis in my work.

from Biotechnology, A Laboratory Course bye Jeffrey M. Becker, Guy A.
Caldwell and Eve Ann Zachgo, Academic Press, Inc 1990:

On page 41: "Knowledge of the growth characteristics of an organism is
essential to biotechnology for achieving reproducible plasmid and
recombinant protein yields.  To obtain uniform, balanced growth, a
culture is havvested int eh logarithmic or exponential growth phase in
which the growth rate and composition of each cell in the population are
nearly identical.

On page 188:  "The lag phase of Saccharomyces cerevisiae at 30 deg C in
YEPD lasts about 3 hours. ......Cells growing in a batch (shake flask)
culture generally experience four distinct growth phases: a lag phase,
and exponential (log) phase, a stationary phase, and a death phase.
 ...... Once the cells begin growing rapidly, they are sed to enter the
exponential, or logarithmic (log), growth phase.  Cells in the log phase
are growing rapidly, and, unlike cells in the lag and stationary phases,
most are in the same physiological state.  The growth rate during log
phase is dependent on the nutrient level and aeration of the medium. 
Oxygen is frequently the limiting factor in yeast cultures,...  

Both of these passages are relating specifically to our favorite yeast
but are general as well.

Rick Wood
"Brewing on Guam"


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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:14:54 -0500
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: WST

John Wilkinson indicates his tribulations with a WST (wort stability test):

> A couple of weekends ago I brewed a batch of stout.  Prior to pitching the
> yeast I took a sample to test the OG.  I had sanitized the wine thief, sample
> tube, hydrometer, 1/2 pint jar, and lid.  After testing the SG of the sample
> I poured it into the sanitized jar and screwed on the lid.

There's the problem.  To do a WST, you need to use sterile -- not sanitized --
equipment, and pay very careful attention to aseptic transfer techniques.
John's stated techniques compounded matters by a factor of at least three, in
that microorganisms on the hydrometer jar, hyrdrometer, or the sample jar could
have skewed the results.  (In John's case, I'd lay decent money on plain old
brewer's yeast from the hydrometer or hydrometer jar being the contaminant.)

In short, if you're gonna do a WST, don't get cute and try to reuse the
hydrometer sample -- you're just asking for contamination.  Aspetically draw a
sample into a sterile container (gamma sterilized 50 ml centrifuge tubes work
great), seal it up, and leave it alone.

Louis K. Bonham



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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:40:46 -0600
From: "phil grossblatt" <philgro at swcp.com>
Subject: red wine headaches and sulfites

Dick Dunn responded to someone thusly:

> The headache (and often other symptoms) reaction to red wine but not white
> wine is very real, surprisingly common (way more common than reaction to
> sulfites in wine), AND well understood.  It is a histamine reaction which
> has nothing to do with sulfites.

As a supporting data point,consider this:
I used to work for a winery that made wines with no added sulfites 
(it would be easier to say "sulfite-free wine", but of course people 
have to object: "but ALL wines have sulfites").Over the 
years,numerous people would tell us how they were "unable" to 
drink wine untill they tried ours.However,quite a few people said 
they would get headaches from red wine,and ours,with practically 
no detectible sulfites,STILL gave them headaches.
   While I'm on the subject though,there can be a difference between
"sulfite allergies" and "sulfite sensitivity".While it's true that a pretty 
small percent of people are at risk for a dangerous reaction to 
sulfites (and I'm talking higher levels than you would expect to find 
in wine),quite a few people do have annoying,though not 
"hazardous" reactions to as little as 50ppm or so.
   Hopefully no one objects to this somewhat offtopic digression 
from beer,but there are so many experts here that I can't resist 
displaying the little bit of knowledge that I have...





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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 05:14:36 -0400
From: David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Re: Barleywine Conditioning

In a post a couple of days ago I was not clear enough and implied that
one could ferment out a barleywine and then keg condition it ready for
consumption.  Not so fast!  I failed to mention that the barleywine I
kegged was already around one year old, and had been held in bulk
storage following fermenting.  The rest of the BW that went into bottles
was only four months old.  Sorry if I misled anyone on that....

Cheers!
David Sherfey
Warwick, NY


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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:50:13 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at ncc.moc.kw>
Subject: Stirring a Brew

Has anyone information of thermal gradients while fermenting.
I have built a vessel 35 Litres and have fitted refrigerant coils around it
to try to limit the temperature of the brew. I am brewing in the hottest
capital in the world, currently only 45C outside and will rise to 52C.
Running my vessel on water I have a thermal gradient of over 7C from top to
bottom. All is insulated and I have the thermostat set to 15C
As an engineer the answer would be to circulate the liquid to minimise the
thermal gradient. This could be done by stirring or pumping in a closed
environment (i.e. under CO2 only no Air)
 What would happen to the brew. I am looking for both beer and wine answers
if possible.

Sandy Macmillan




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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 07:57:24 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Histamine Headache, Flagellation,

Brewsters:

Dick Dunn says:

"The headache (and often other symptoms) reaction to red wine
but not white
wine is very real, surprisingly common (way more common than
reaction to
sulfites in wine), AND well understood.  It is a histamine reaction
which
has nothing to do with sulfites."

Well, I have always been told by people who claim to have the
headache that it is the sulfites.  So inform me and others here
the exact situation with this "well known" reaction. What is it in
red wine that causes this reaction that does not occur in white
wine?  References would be appreciated and I'll use them in my
wine education class at Rutgers University.

Interestingly, I have several women friends who all claimed that
red wine gave them headaches and didn't drink red wine because
of the sulfite content.  After the "French Paradox" showed the
potential value of a glass or two of wine a day and I gave them
a discussion on the advantages of resveratrol in red wine and
the fact that red wine often had less sulfites, they no longer had
headaches! They now drink red wine with impunity. So I sincerely
doubt that all of so called red wine headaches have a physiological
explanation. 


By the way, I do not discount the potential for a different
physiological reaction to different substances.  One glass of
Black Label and I got blinding headaches within a half an hour.
I was told many years later that it was a cobalt based heading
agent legal in Canada and Britain but not in the US that gave this
reaction to 1% or so of the population.  I was living in Britain at the
time.
- ----------------------------------------------------
I felt uncomfortable reading Steve Aexander's self-flagellation,
although I believe his apology to Lyn Kruger is perhaps correct in
that he did not have all the facts.  However, Steve, never stop
presenting your studied information without references. That is
what makes it valuable - all the rest is hear-say.   

- ----------------------------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ
Dave_Burley at Compuserve.com

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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:15:50 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: So many beers - so little time.

Michael Tucker <mtucker at unpublisher.com> says of my post ...

>>but unless I hear some good words from HBD, or a friend,
>>or happen to taste the beer in a restaurant or at a 'fest - it's just
>>going to have to wait on the shelf.  That's sad because there
>>are undoubtedly some great beers out there that deserve
>>recognition.

>And how are you ever going to find out unless you try a bottle once in
>awhile? Really, a couple of bucks, even $6-$8 for a 6-pack isn't much of
>an investment to taste a new beer once in awhile.

Perhaps I didn't state my point clearly enough.  To reiterate, we need to
communicate which are the good, the bad, and the ugly breweries over this forum
and via services like www.pubcrawler.com.  I do.

Why ?
$6-8 bucks isn't enough to phase me, but the insult of paying for premium
product and getting an ale with diacetyl so thick you wonder why the popcorns
isn't crunchy, or other obvious signs of infection hacks me off. Frankly this
doesn't happen a lot, but it happens.  The bigger problem is the largish number
of, "Gee this is OK, but I'd rather be drinking something else." beers.  There
are far too many reputedly great beer that I haven't yet adequately tasted to
continue the "trial and error' thru the grocery bins.

The tasting notes, and comments on HBD by guys like AlK are to me invaluable;
the reviews in the Malt Advocate too.  If I were to stop working and take up
drinking as a full time profession - it would still take me many months to sort
through the beers that I have good reason to believe are very good; longer if I
continued to drink homebrew and frequent the local micros.  So why should I or
any other consumer, play Russian roulette among the dozens of "never heard of
it" beers in the local grocery/beer store ?  I think that this points out a
very real marketing problem for micros as well.  Why should the average
consumer muddle thru the mixed bag of micro beers when he can choose a
SamAdams, Bass, Spaten or an SNPA and be (almost) assured of a consistent and
high quality product ?

>I think part of supporting the micro market means trying new and
>different beers as you discover them, afterall, it is a pretty trivial
>investment.....  just my  opinion......YMMV    :-)

I'm all in favor of becoming intimately familiar with the local places.  I
certainly try to do this, and can (and have on this forum) pointed out some of
the local winners (IMHO).  Obviously if the locals can't /don't recommend a
local micro - who will ?  The dollar investment is trivial, but I can only
consume so many beers.  Time (or is it tongue/liver bandwidth) is the expensive
commodity here.  If you have a good or bad reaction to a beer, why not share
the experience with a few dozen or perhaps a few hundred Internet friends and
let them profit from your experience ?

>Michael R. Tucker
Or perhaps I'll just "Let Mikey try it" ;^)

Steve Alexander




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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:05:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: no-boil; sulfite labels; unnatural lead; tapioca

Mike Allred asks:

> has anyone tried
> mash/launder/pitch without the boil? ...
> You would have to drink it fast, and probably use alot of dry yeast
> to beat the infection.

A mash temp of 150+ for over 30 minutes should pasteurize it.

Why not make a regular batch and divert half a gallon to a jug?  Let us
know how it comes out.

You might try a half gallon just fermented, to see what the base taste is
like, and a half gallon fermented with some cocoa powder in it.  Chocolate
releases its bitterness without a long boil.

 - - - - - - - - - -
Dick Dunn discussed what drives sulfite labelling on wine, pointing out:

> You can sort out this much by digging in to the laws and
> finding that only alcoholic beverages are required to warn for sulfite
> content at such a level.

Since I am neither a wine producer nor a sulfite-sensitive sufferer, this
is new information for me.  Thanks.

 - - - - - - - - - -
David R. Burley said:

>The transport of the wine in then
>newly invented and poorly constructed oak casks didn't help as
>the wine undoubtedly spoiled on the way from Marseille to Rome.

And doubtless picked up an inauthentic oaky character...

>Sam Mize also says of my discussion of low levels of sulfite in wines:
>
>"You kind of dodged his point.  Sulfite is as "all-natural" as salt.  
>That doesn't make it safe, just natural.  Some people care."
>
>Well, I can't think of anything more natural than salt, can you??

Dave, I was AGREEING that ALAN had dodged YOUR point.

 - - - - - - - - - -
Eric Fouch asks about tapioca being poisonous.  My recollection is that
prior to processing (cooking), the plant is poisonous.  Unless you went out
and harvested the tapioca yourself, it's been processed.  What you buy in
the store doesn't look like plant matter, does it?  It's extracted starch.

But the belief that it's poisonous may have been an old, erroneous belief
(like tomatoes being considered poisonous in, I think, the 1700s).  I'll
double-check and come back with a reference.

>So, I guess the moral is, dilute your uncooked tapioca,
>and you won't have any problems.  Ditto with your sodium cyanide solutions.

Don't be absurd nobody would put something like that in his beer.  Well,
except maybe Mort...

Wait a minute.  We have this, and a guy named Mort ("Death" in French) who
says you can check out your cask with mercuric cyanide...  are you guys
working together against me??????  Is my conspiracy ruined?

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:36:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Tasting Beers From Iveneverheardofit Brewing Works...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Steve Alexander sez...

>> So why should I or any other consumer, play Russian roulette among the
>> dozens of "never heard of it" beers in the local grocery/beer store ? 

Heh! That statement kills your premise, doesn't it? I mean, if no-one was 
willing to step off the bank and test the waters, we'd still be 
discussing the virtues of Budweiser.

>> Why should the average consumer muddle thru the mixed bag of micro
>> beers when he can choose a SamAdams, Bass, Spaten or an SNPA and be
>> (almost) assured of a consistent and high quality product ? 

How 'bout this reason: If no-one ever tried something they never had 
before, you wouldn't even KNOW about the consistent quality of Sam Adams, 
Bass, Spaten or SNPA! They would never have been "discovered" because 
nobody would have "sacrificed" a known-enjoyable beer for one of them.

I understand your underlying sentiment, Steve, but, with your arguments,
you seem to be suggesting that we should collapse the beer industry to
those we already know and love. (I really, really think you didn't mean
it to read the way it does.) The simple fact is, though, that the only
way you're ever going to GET those tasting notes you so crave is by
someone taking the risk you wish to avert. Gotta try 'em... 

>> If I were to stop working and take up drinking as a full time
>> profession

Whoa! Cool! Where can I sign up?  ;-)

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."
(Yeah, yeah: I'm a cheating bastage. Being Janitor has its advantages....)








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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:28:55 -0400
From: "Rolfe, Joe" <jrolfe at mc.com>
Subject: alternate hop types/vendors, c-tes

All this thread about 100+IBU big beers got me going....one of these
days
I got to brew again but I still have 40 cases of a 2 yr old barley wine
to drink.

Just wondering if some brewers (commercial or hobby) are using any of
the concentrated pellet hops (type 45, stabilized, isomerized) and if 
so
from which vendors (if known), any comments? 

<Cut from Hass web page....>

1. Regular Pellets, also referred to as 'Type 90' pellets are produced
by milling baled hops to a powder and pelletizing the powder.
2. Concentrated Pellets, also referred to as 'Type 45' pellets are
produced by passing the hops through a series of rotary sifters where a
lupulin-rich fraction is separated from the fibre. For most hops 95% of
the alpha acid is obtained in approxima tely half the original weight.
Other properties are comparable to regular pellets.
3. Stabilized Pellets are produced by blending the hop powder with a
small amount of magnesium oxide powder and pelletizing the mixture.
Specifications are comparable to those of regular pellets but storage
stability at ambient temperature and utiliz ation in the brewhouse are
significantly improved.
4. Isomerized Pellets are produced by warming stabilized pellets to
approximately 50C and holding for one to two weeks. The alpha acids 
are
almost completely isomerized under these conditions, with a consequent
large increase in utilization of the brewing value.

On the clinitest - I am not going to get into a religious war about the
use or not of clinitest, I guess that thread (must of missed it...) got
beat around enough.  Whatever works in your environment - use that. I
was a commercial brewer (very small) at the time, so I will probably
allways be biased towrd the biz end of beer.  What a way to ruin a good
hobby? - yep.  

I can assure you that experience tells me, the way to perform proper
bottle conditioning is based closely to tracking remaining fermentables
combined with the particular yeast strain(s) used. Hopefully the yeast
strain is a stable one, has some type of history and is very 
predictable
over time.  

Good Luck and Great Brewing
Joe Rolfe

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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:11:33 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Forced Carbonation

Seems to me all the flap about forced carbonation is once again, a 
conflict between catagorical imperitives from books and the results
from real world experience.

I don't doubt for an instant that pressure,  temperature and time
will produce predictable carbonation levels in a lab but home
breweries are not labs.  

How can one persons's "rocking for 5 minutes" possibly be equated to 
what someone else might consider rocking for 5 minutes.  I shake the
hell out of mine and rest at regular intervals and sometimes carry
this on for an hour or more (long rests).

The list of variables beyond that seem endless.  How much beer is in
the keg?  What size keg is it?  How much air space is there?  Was it
properly purged before starting?  What really was the temp?  How
accurate is that gage?  What was the level of CO2 before beginning?
Was water added after fermentation?

As in everything else in this craft, we should use the "books" as
guidelines and do what works for us.  If one tests each process and 
compares with previous experience or in  this case, simply samples the
carbonation while doing it, he will be a much wiser and happier
brewer than if he just follows all the rules.

js

- -- 

Visit our WEB pages:     http://user.mc.net/arf

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:35:04 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: CPB's and draft system setup

I typically carbonate by placing my keg (5 gal) in the refrigerator and
cranking the CO2 up to about 15 or 20 psi.  I leave the CO2 attached and on
for about 2 weeks.  At the end of two week, I disconnect the CO2 and
release the pressure out of keg.  I then reconnect the CO2 and set it at
about 3 or 4 psi to serve.  My beers usually come out pretty foamy at
first, then taper off to a normal level but not always.  I am assuming this
is because the gas begins to leave the liquid after i drop to 3 or 4 psi.
Is this a reasonable force carb method?  I used to think so, but I am
beginning to doubt it.  How should I do it?  Is carbonating with corn sugar
better than force carbonating?  I liked the idea of a pressure drop in the
line and would like to try it.  Could someone explain how you decide what
length of hose to use, how tight of a coil to make, etc???  With the
pressure drop setup, I assume you want to choose a psi from a temp/volumes
table - correct?

I have also just bought a counter pressure filler and the first thing I
realized is that I don't hink I understand the theory behind how it is
supposed to work.  I use a psi setting for filling about the same I usually
use for dispensing.  i begin to fill each beer after purging the bottle.
once the pressure in the bottle equalizes with that in the keg, the bottle
stops filling.  When I start to relieve pressure from the bottle, it does
NOT cause it to start to fill up again, it causes it to start foaming like
crazy.  I have only filled a couple bottles so far to test it out.  They
seem to be a bit flat.  Could this be because the CO2 left from the foaming
that happened when filling?  To get a bottle filled, I had to turn the psi
down to almost nothing and leave the beer line into the bottle open and the
vent open so the beer could make room for itself to get in the bottle.  Am
I doing this right - doesn't seem like it.  Would someone care to explain
the theory behind CPB, and then tell me how to use it?

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Pete (who thought he understood carbonation, but thought he understood
yeast starters too.....)




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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:45:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at jps.net>
Subject: RE: Repitching 3 wk. old slurry


In digest #2794, Dean Fikar asked about using 3 week old slurry.

 ..Now my question is what should with the quart of 1968 slurry I have had
 ..in the fridge at 38F since 7/28?   I plan to brew to brew a porter on
 ..Aug. 16th and wonder if I can just add a pint of wort to the slurry at
 ..fermentation temp a couple of days before I brew?  Have I waited too
 ..long and should I just start over and build up a 2 qt. starter (6.5 gal.
 ..batch) from a few cc's of the slurry?  Oh, I didn't wash the slurry but
 ..it seems pretty trub free.

Things should work out well using the procedure you mentioned. In your
situation I would take a half cup of the slurry and add that to a quart of
wort a day or two before brewing. You will definitely want to taste/smell
the starter before pitching.

One thing worth noting: In my experience 1968 is one of the most flocculant
of all the Wyeast strains. That stuff just hates to stay in suspension. If
your slurry was harvested from the primary of a previous batch, then you
have harvested the most flocculant of the flocculant. To ensure good
attentuation, be sure to aereate the new batch well, and you may find it
necessary to rouse the yeast occaisionally.
********************************************************************     	
Robert Arguello <robertac at jps.net>
CORNY KEGS FOR SALE!  $12.00 each
http://www.jps.net/robertac/keg.htm
ProMash Brewers' Software - http://www.jps.net/robertac/promash
********************************************************************



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---