HOMEBREW Digest #2798 Sat 15 August 1998
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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of
Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
URL: http://www.oeonline.com
Contents:
BJCP Exam in Montreal (Denis Barsalo)
sulfites and killer yeasts ("phil grossblatt")
What is this magic powder called Copper Clear? (Mick Honnor)
Sahti / Indy Beer Event / CAP kinda ale (David A Bradley)
honey wheat, double pitching (Earl & Karen Bright)
Re: Wyeast 2007 (Jeff Renner)
Tapioca in brewing (Results)
Volatile Acidity (AJ)
fruit question (melomel) (LEAVITDG)
Will I like this beer? (haafbrau1)
Wild yeast characterisitcs (George_De_Piro)
Badger's double runnings (The Wind in the Mash Tun?); 14C much cooler than now (Samuel Mize)
Mia culpa! (George_De_Piro)
Re: Badger's Double Mash ("Tidmarsh Major")
Volatile acidity, ("David R. Burley")
Counter Pressure Filling (Robert Arguello)
$6-8 (Al Korzonas)
Wanted - Pilsner Urquell Recipe - All Grain (Andrew McGowan)
Briess ESB malt (Charles Epp)
KROC World Brewers Forum (BrewsTraveler)
Irish Beer, non-stout? (KROONEY)
Thanks ("Dawn Watkins")
yeast reuse/DAP/raspberries/boil pH and break/dishwater beer (Al Korzonas)
brewpub offerings (Scott Murman)
Chest Freezer Thanks ("Michael Kowalczyk")
Ales worth mentioning (Kevin TenBrink)
Bavarian Wheat, the head returns! (Dave Humes)
Hops-Off-The-Vine ("J. Kish")
Why multi-step starters? (Fred Johnson)
how do i increase my batch size? (Jebbly)
Clinitest Again ("Buchanan, Robert")
LME Help ("H. Dowda")
Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the end of your day as
every sentence deserves proper punctuation...
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:03:29 -0400
From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at cam.org>
Subject: BJCP Exam in Montreal
For anyone interested,
There will be a BJCP exam in Montreal on October 10th. In case you
want to make it a holiday weekend trip, that happens to be the Memorial
Day/Canadian Thanksgiving weekend!
The exam is sponsored by CABA (The Canadian Amateur Brewers
Association) and anyone wanting additional information should contact me.
Space is limited and you must register in advance.
Thank you
Denis Barsalo
CABA Montreal Regional Rep
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:59:49 -0600
From: "phil grossblatt" <philgro at swcp.com>
Subject: sulfites and killer yeasts
Dave Burley wrote:
> Sulfite, as I pointed out, is a by-product of many wine yeasts'
> fermentation. It is a natural product which they make to protect their
> turf ( the grape must) from other yeasts and bacteria. Lallemand
> calls this phenomenon a "killer Strain" of yeast, but it is quite normal
> and natural.
Sulfites are produced by yeasts,but I don't think we can assume
they do it to protect their turf.Sulfites have nothing in particuliar to
do with "killer yeasts"(and I'm sure that Lallemand doesn't claim
they do).
The "killer factor" is some sort of protein (perhaps an enzyme?)
that is toxic to most other yeasts.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 11:23:24 BST
From: Mick Honnor <M.E.Honnor at swansea.ac.uk>
Subject: What is this magic powder called Copper Clear?
Hi
My local brew pub said that commercal brewers do not use Irish moss, but
use a product called "copper clear" which he described as an enzyne
which is the active ingredient in Irish moss. He gets it passed to him
from a large brewery in South Wales.
The dossage is 10grams per barrel (36 U.K. gallons) for the last five
minutes of the boil. If fizzes when you add it. It is wonderful stuff,
there is a lot of cold break and the wort is crystal clear if allowed
to settal for a couple of minutes. There is simply too much cold break
material to filter out though the hop bed.
Does anyone know what this product is or any ideas as to what it may be?
Irish moss (and presumably carrageenan) are not enzymatic, so it cannot
be an enzyne which is the active ingredient in Irish moss.
Cheers Mick
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:23:36 -0500
From: David A Bradley <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at lilly.com>
Subject: Sahti / Indy Beer Event / CAP kinda ale
Another approach to the conceptually interesting
beverage Sahti (see current BT), which has been
a nano-thread recently....why not use First Mash
Hopping (FMH) to get some hop character too?
That's putting your hops in the mash tun.
Or just more authentic First Mash Junipering (FMJ)?
Note that the original process is essentially FWJ-ing.
I like the suggestion recently made on HBD to use
a gallon or so of your first runoff for a Sahti, not
only because of convenience, but also because
of the need to consume Sahti when its fresh.
Indiana Microbrewer's Festival 1998...its coming
up on Sept 5th, 2-6pm in Broadripple Village at
Optimist Park (near the IN Arts Center). Its a good
fest w/food and bands + local and regional brewers.
Cost $17 advance, and it *will* sell out again this year!
CAP errr CAA since it was an ale. I brewed one
back in May, and it turned out very nice. I did a
cereal mash (fun, as Jeff mentions). My OG was
higher than expected, but the finished beer was
much lighter in taste than the all barley beer would
have been. Interesting taste, though I think the
corn character was hidden beneath the ale yeast's.
I'll brew it again. It was a hit with most drinkers at
a summer party, this in spite of its potency and the heat!
Dave in Indy
Home of the (nearly unused) 3-B Brewery, Ltd.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:43:56 -0400
From: denali at epix.net (Earl & Karen Bright)
Subject: honey wheat, double pitching
Does anybody have a good recipe for a honey wheat brew. Similar to
Pete's Wicked Honey Wheat.
I was brewing a wheat beer and noticed very little activity after
about one week, so when I transfered to my secondary fermenter, I pitched
another batcj of yeast. The beer has a fruity aftertaste, is this due to
the second pitching??? Also will this increase to alcohol content? Please
help this novice brewer!!!
EARL!
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:45:02 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Wyeast 2007
Writing about acetaldehyde and Wyeast 2007, I wrote
>There was also a fair amount of diacetyl in a pale lager (forget
^^^^^^^^^
>which style) that I judged this weekend for the Michigan State Fair, and I
>didn't care for that aspect. It may well have been fermented with 2007.
I meant to write "acetaldehyde," which may have been apparent from the
context. Brain cramp.
Jeff
-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:53:03 -0500
From: Results <results at win.bright.net>
Subject: Tapioca in brewing
I had an old retired guy show up in the brewery one day that had retired
from Pabst after about 33 years there doing just about everything. He
said that during the WWII years when malt (and just about everything
else) was hard to get, they used a great deal of Manioca (from the
thickened roots of sweet or bitter cassava pants - then grown in
Brazil). He mentioned that they used it with reasonably good results.
The MBAA original Practical brewer mentions this along with Whey and
Potatoes as things that can be used in a pinch.
Randy Lee
Viking Brewing Company
Dallas, WI
http://www.win.bright.net
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:19:08 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Volatile Acidity
Lou Heavner asked if volatile acidity is the same as total acidity and
whether it can be measured with a pH meter. The answers are "No" and
"No". Volatile acidity is a component of total acidity i.e. total
acidity = volatile acidity plus non-volatile acidity. The volatile part
is the part that is driven off if the wine (or beer) is heated. Volatile
acidity is measured by distilling the beverage in question, making up
the volume of the distillate to the volume originally placed in the
distillation flask and then titrating this diluted distillate with
sodium hydroxide, or another suitable alkali, until neutrality is
reached. A pH measurement alone will not suffice to determine either
volatile or total alkalinity though a pH meter may be used to indicate
the titration end point.
The major component of volatile acidity in wine is acetic acid. As there
is little of this in most beers (exception - lambics) volatile acidity
is not usually of concern to brewers. DeClerk mentions that if volatile
acidity is high it can lead to errors in estimation of alcohol content
when distillation and gravimetry are used. In these cases he recommends
redistilling the titrated first distillation. The acetic acid therein
will have been converted to non-volatile acetate ion by the addition of
the base during the titration.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:02:39 -0500 (EST)
From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: fruit question (melomel)
Date sent: 13-AUG-1998 09:00:05
I have now seen posted a few times a procedure that I hadn't been aware of;
that is, freezing the peaches. I had thought that one should take them up
to about 170 degrees to kill bacteria, but that if one goes higher that
it will release? pectins? Could someone straighten me out on this one?
Is it easier/better to clean fruit, then freeze it? What happens to the
bacteria?
...Darrell
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/
_/Darrell Leavitt _/
_/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/
_/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu _/
_/AX25 : n2ixl at kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:59:16 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: Will I like this beer?
One more reason to shell out the $6-8 bucks yourself, instead of me
telling you what's good, is as follows- What I think is the best brew in
the world, you may consider skunk p*ss. (Nothing against skunk p*ss,
something has to keep the ignorant masses happy) Maybe I got the
overheated truckload of an otherwise excellant micro. Maybe you got the
6 pack sitting under the flourescent lights too long. Maybe I'm a
twisted individual that enjoys telling folks what an excellant beer
Spoogles is, even though I know I spent $7 bucks too much on a $5.00 6
pack. Misery loves company sometimes.
Just my two cents plain.
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:06:29 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Wild yeast characterisitcs
Hi all,
Paul talks about a dubbel he brewed with Wyeast 1214. He says that it
is not aging to his liking:
>After 6+ months, though, the beer had dried out considerably. The
>maltiness was very subdued, and a very tart aftertaste cropped up.
He goes on to say that he doubts that it is a wild yeast problem because
there is no diacetyl. Diacetyl is not usually associated with wild
yeast problems (it is associated with bacterial problems, specifically
Pediococcus). If the beer is getting really sour, but doesn't smell
like vinegar, I'd guess that it is a lactobacillus infection. If it
does smell like vinegar, acetobacter are the likely cause.
If wild yeast is the problem, I would expect the bottles to become
overcarbonated with time. They may (or may not) acquire phenolic
character in time, too. Astringency can also develop (some phenols
are astringent).
Have fun!
George De Piro (Nyack, NY)
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:56:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: Badger's double runnings (The Wind in the Mash Tun?); 14C much cooler than now
>From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
>Subject: Help with All Grain - no sparge, 2 runnings
>I am about ready to make the next step into All grain. (wait for the cheers
>to die down..) But, i want to do some slightly non-standard things.
Well then of course you will fail. You should do everything the one way
that everyone else here does them. (wait for guffaws to die down -- we
can argue for days about how to boil water...)
>I would like to formulate recipies that allows me to get 2 separate batches
>from one grain bill. ... they mention a
>recipie by Jethro Gump that yields a 5 gallons fo barley wine (13%), and 10
>gallons of small beer. (4-5%).
>
>...as a Historicalicly inclined brewer (but not speller)
You're a very historically inclined speller ;-) and nobody here cares.
>I would like to modify the
>historical method slightly tho, to get a decent regular ale as the second
>runnings. medievally the second runnings, Table beer, was fairly weak.
I promise, real data at last. As you point out, your process will be "out
of period," so this is just for funsies.
The trouble is that none of us here knows how efficient your system is.
That is, we don't know how much sugar you're producing from a pound of
malt, or how efficiently you're rinsing it out of the tun.
However, to produce a stronger second beer, just stop taking the second
runnings before they get too weak. With Jethro's recipe, you might get 5
gallons of barleywine and 6 gallons of normal ale. Another brewer might
get 4 gallons of barleywine and 5 gallons of ale.
The simplest approach would be to use a normal recipe for your second
beer, but use half-again to twice as much grain. The strong beer will be
a stronger version of the weaker, so you can make an Imperial stout and a
session stout, or a barleywine and an English ale, for example.
Have a target specific gravity for the heavy batch. Take the specific
gravity of the first runnings, they will be over that target by some
amount (we hope). Stop taking runnings for the heavy beer when the
specific gravity of the runnings gets that far below your target, so the
average will be about on target (or when you fill your brewpot, whichever
comes first). This should get you into the ballpark for your first beer.
Use the same rough method to hit your gravity target for the second beer.
Once you've done this a few times, you'll know what kind of efficiency to
expect from your system, and you'll be able to predict how much first and
second runnings to expect from your system.
You can also fling some specialty grains in for the second runnings --
anything, like crystal malt, that doesn't need mashing.
"If given a blank canvas a SCAthian will go out and LEARN how to make
paint." [Kimmer Bayleaf]
>for purposes of this discussion, i am using a 5 gallon converted cooler i
>bought from a brewer guy.
This may be too small for a full five-gallon batch strong enough to leave
good second runnings. There's good info at http://www.brewery.org about
how much water and space you need for a given amount of grain, email me if
you can't find it.
The point was never to make a great second beer. The medieval brewer just
didn't want to waste the food value left in the tun after making a strong
beer, so he rinsed out the sugar with more water and made a small beer.
Also, since they believed that drinking plain water was not healthy, this
let the brewer "treat" more water and make it safe. (Given medieval
sanitation, by the way, they were right -- boiling the water for brewing
made it MUCH safer.)
To make a strong beer all-grain, you have two choices:
(1) Draw normal runnings and boil them down
(2) Mash "too much" grain and draw only the strong runnings
These aren't mutually exclusive, you can draw strong first runnings and
boil them down even stronger. A long boil affects the flavor, good for
Scottish Ales but not for Pilsners, for example.
Of course, making a strong beer with just extract is easier, proving that
this is a better way to brew a strong beer. (Put down that rifle, it's a
joke.) You could keep some malt extract handy, with which to fortify the
second runnings if necessary.
- - - - - - - - - -
Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> ends a note with:
>Al.
>(short for Algis)
>(short for Algirdas, king of Lithuania in the 14th century)
And now you're stuck in Illinois with us? Gee, the centuries haven't been
kind to you, Al. :-)
Best,
Sam Mize
- --
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:11:37 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Mia culpa!
Hi all,
Just a quick note to correct my post about yeast growth. I
incorrectly stated that it was Jim and Spencer discussing said topic.
It was in fact Steve Alexander, not Spencer. Their first names both
start with "S." Yeah, that's it...
Sorry if any of the parties were offended.
Have fun!
George
_
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:54:53 -0700
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Badger's Double Mash
Badger asks about double-mashing, or parti-gyle brewing, as a way
to emulate our medieval predecessors. Mark Prior posted an in-
depth formula to predict the gravities involved on July 16, 1997,
which is a good place to start. I pretty much skipped the formula
and used his example results, which show that for a 50/50 volume
split, 70% of the gravity points will be in the first runnings, and 30%
in the second. For 12 lbs of malt in a 5-gal mashtun, that predicts
2.5 gals of 1.100 barleywine and 2.5 gals of 1.040 small beer or
bitter. This calculation worked out well for my Big 10/20
Barleywine (1.098) and Little 5/10 Bitter (1.039). The bitter (my
wife's favorite in a while--I like it when that happens!) was quite
tasty and is, alas, long gone. The barleywine is still conditioning in
the keg, until I can make myself bottle it.
As an aside, I saw in the news that Anchor is now making a small
beer from the second runnings of Old Foghorn, though it is only
available in the Bay area and in 22 oz bottles (the small beer in the
big bottle?).
TIdmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama
tidmarsh at mindspring.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:06:09 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Volatile acidity,
Brewsters:
Lou Heavener ask about volatile acidity and how to measure it.
In winemaking, volatile acidity is a measure of the amount of
acetification the wine has undergone ( often an indication of
acetobacter spoilage). It is evaluated by distilling the wine and
titrating with sodium hydroxide the acetic acid which was carried over.
Non-volatile wine acids like tartartic and malic are often evaluated
by titrating the total wine and subtracting out the volatile acidity.
Nowadays, thin layer chromatography is often used to evaluate
the non-volatile acid content of the wines. Gas chromatogaphy
is used to determine volatile acidity as well as alcohol content.
pH meters cannot be used directly to determine any kind of acidity,
since these are highly buffered solution of acids and acid salts.
The pH meter can be used to provide a determination of the
endpoint of the titration.
Keep on Brewin'
Dave Burley
Dave_Burley at compuserve
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:10:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at jps.net>
Subject: Counter Pressure Filling
Hi all,
As I have been promising numerous RCB'ers for a few years to do so... I have
finally posted photos and diagrams for my "Hands Free" CP filler on my web
site. I also included a description of the method I use to CP fill. You can
see the article at http://www.jps.net/robertac/cp_fill.htm
********************************************************************
Robert Arguello <robertac at jps.net>
CORNY KEGS FOR SALE! $12.00 each
http://www.jps.net/robertac/keg.htm
ProMash Brewers' Software - http://www.jps.net/robertac/promash
********************************************************************
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:03:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: $6-8
Steve writes:
>$6-8 bucks isn't enough to phase me, but the insult of paying for premium
>product and getting an ale with diacetyl so thick you wonder why the popcorns
>isn't crunchy, or other obvious signs of infection hacks me off. Frankly this
>doesn't happen a lot, but it happens. The bigger problem is the largish number
>of, "Gee this is OK, but I'd rather be drinking something else." beers. There
>are far too many reputedly great beer that I haven't yet adequately tasted to
>continue the "trial and error' thru the grocery bins.
While I have no solution to the $8 "eh... it's okay" beer, I do have a
solution to the beer that has insulted you:
Bring it *back* to the store. The last time I did this was when I bought
four sixpacks from a new micro. I tried one of each and felt they were
genuinely bad beer. I brought them back and got something else... I
insisted I even get credit for the four beers that insulted me and I got
the credit. It helps that I buy beer at this store monthly (like $100) and
the owner knows me by name. This further goes to show the benefits of
loyalty to a single good retailer for most of your beer (or homebrew supply
purchases).
Steve's post further mentions sharing good and bad experiences with various
micros/brewpubs. I've taken notes on virtually every beer I've tasted
in the last 8 years and while recipes may drift or some batches may be
better than others, I think that particular beers rarely will change from
"outstanding" to "poor" or vice versa. It also helps to know how close
a beer is to the style on the label. For example, Schmalz Alt is a lousy
Duesseldorfer Altbier, but it's a very respectable Munchner Dunkel.
Just one more thing to put on my list of things to put on my website...
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:12:37 -0400
From: Andrew McGowan <AMCGOWAN at WPO.HCC.COM>
Subject: Wanted - Pilsner Urquell Recipe - All Grain
My wife, who usually doesn't like beer, got to try PU
draft last weekend and wants me to brew it ( which I
was going to do anyway since I really liked it ). I've
searched the archives and Cats Meow and compiled
the following:
8 lbs. pilsner
1 lb. light munich
0.5 lb. carapils
Mash at 55-60-70, my usual schedule. Add Saaz (
nominal 3.1% AA) 60 min 2 oz, 30 min 0.75 oz and 1
oz at 2 min. Ferment with Wyeast 2124 (Bohemian)
and lag about 8 weeks. Any suggestions, recipies or
tips would be GREATLY appreciated. TIA!!
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:09:39 -0500
From: Charles Epp <chuckepp at ukans.edu>
Subject: Briess ESB malt
How does the new Briess ESB malt compare to British pale ale malts in
terms of quality, performance, etc? I see that it's a little darker
(5.5 lovibond, compared to about 3). I'd be interested in hearing from
people who've tried it in British ale recipes, especially (but not only)
those of you who've used British malts in the past. Thanks.
- --Chuck in Lawrence, KS
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:44:43 -0600 (MDT)
From: BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com
Subject: KROC World Brewers Forum
The Keg Ran Out Club presents:
_________________________________________________________________
"Real Old Beers"
_________________________________________________________________
at the "Fourth Annual KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)"
Colorado's Keg Ran Out Club (KROC), presents an educational forum
with:
Ray Daniels
President of the Craft Beer Institute and author of "Designing
Great Beers" and "101 Ideas for Homebrew Fun".
Brad Kraus
1997 GABF Kolsch Bronze Medal winner and Brewmaster at Wolf
Canyon Brewing Company.
This landmark event entering its fourth year has brought together
the brewing community for an evening of education, discussion,
fellowship, and fun!
Previous Forum(sm) participants have had the oppurtunitty to
participate in discussions concerning Barley Wines, Wit beers,
English Ales and Continental Pilseners from world-renown brewers
and authors.
This is a an excellent opportunity to meet local, national, and
international brewers, sample fine beers, and win door prizes.
The "KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)" is FREE but attendance is limited
so RSVP ASAP!
______________________________________________________________________
When: 7pm Thursday, October 1, 1998
Where: Adam's Mark Hotel
1550 Court Pl, Denver, (303) 893-3333
Cost: FREE!
RSVP: (303) 460-1776 (Homebrew Hut) or BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com
Web: http://www.henge.com/~mmather/kroc/
______________________________________________________________________
The KROC World Brewers Forum(tm) is brought to you by:
The Keg Ran Out Club (KROC)
The American Homebrewers Association
The Birko Corporation
The Homebrew Hut
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:10:06 -0400
From: KROONEY at genre.com
Subject: Irish Beer, non-stout?
Other than dry stout, does anyone know of any styles, beers, or beer
ingredients that are characteristically Irish? I'm particularly interested
in truly Irish offerings, not those brought by the English during their
really long visit.
Also, is there any way to search the archives without opening up each and
every issue? If someone would point me in the right direction, I'd
appreciate it.
Slainte,
Kevin Rooney
Wilton, CT
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:28:41 -0700
From: "Dawn Watkins" <Dawn.Watkins at mci.com>
Subject: Thanks
Just wanted to thank everybody for the warm welcome I have recieved. I have
gotten all kinds of great suggestions on less bitter beers to try, and
beginners books.
Should keep me pretty busy for a while!
Thanks again,
Dawn Watkins
Wyterayven at aol.com
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:45:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: yeast reuse/DAP/raspberries/boil pH and break/dishwater beer
A number of questions have been posted over the last few weeks that
have remained unanswered...
Lou writes:
First, I have reused the yeast from the bottom of my fermenter when
making ales where I only do a single stage ferment. No problem, as
long as I'm careful about sanitation. But if I want to reuse a lager
yeast, should I use the yeast in the bottom of the primary or the
bottom of the secondary? Typically I secondary and lager in the same
carboy (I don't really differentiate between them), so the beer will
be sitting on the yeast for quite a while.
On the same topic, Sam writes:
>Peter Gilbreth <barleywine at prodigy.net> wrote a paragraph I found
>confusing. Was Lyn saying that using sediment from either fermenter
>(primary or secondary) would select over time for non-flocculent yeast?
Peter did follow up on this, but I don't think his followup was much
clearer than the initial post. Let me give it a shot.
Any large population of yeast will have some variation... some will
flocculate earlier than others... some will have slightly better alcohol
tolerance, etc. When you *repeatedly* harvest yeast from the primary
(presuming that you rack the beer before fermentation has completely
finished), you are going to keep getting the *most flocculent* of the
yeast. After a number of generations, you will have *selected* the
most flocculent yeasts, which are typically the ones that are less-
attenuative than the late flocculators (although not always). In this
case "selected" is used in the same context as in "natural selection"
(i.e. "survival of the fittest").
If you *repeatedly* harvest the yeast from the secondary, you will tend
to select the least-flocculent yeasts, which are often the most attenuative.
You can used this to your advantage if you seek to get a more- or less-
attenuative culture.
Now, for one or two generations, the difference will not be measureable.
As for reuse, you want to reuse the yeast *shortly* after they have
finished their work (regardless of whether you harvest from the primary
or secondary). I believe George recently posted that his yeast slurry,
after 2 weeks at near freezing was only 50% viable. (By the way, George...
what was the viability at the beginning of the two weeks?) This is one data
point for one strain... other strains may be 80% viable after this same
storage... still others may be only 20% viable. To be on the safe side,
I would recommend using the yeast within a week of it settling.
If you intend to reuse the yeast, I suggest that you shorten the time
in the primary and rack to the secondary rather early. You may need to use
an increased height difference between the primary and secondary (faster
flow rate) so that the CO2 released during racking doesn't break the siphon.
Then, use the yeast from the secondary after racking the finished beer to
the lagering tertiary. My recommendation really has to do with reducing
the amount of break that you carry over into the new batch and less to do
with yeast selection.
I've done the opposite (longer primary and reuse primary dregs) and I think
it may have made that second batch just a bit soapy (from all that break).
For ales, I only reuse yeast when pitching BIG beers like Barleywines.
In these cases, I have found no problems at all with using the entire
yeast cake from a previous batch of normal-gravity beer, but there are
so many powerful flavours in Barleywines that a few off notes will be lost
in the noise. Recently, I've been thinking that repitching only 1/2 or
1/3 of the previous batch's yeast cake might be better than repitching the
whole thing. The growth will make for a younger yeast population and
the oxygen and FAN will be shared by a smaller population (more O2 and
FAN per cell).
***
Lou also asks:
I have heard that some yeast nutrient is DAP or
synthetic chemicals like that. But other yeast nutrients are actually
spent/dead/destroyed yeast cells. If that is true, would it be
possible to feed the live beer yeast with a packet of my wife's bread
yeast that had been previously boiled? If so, would it be better to
add the packet to the wort kettle? to boiling starter wort? to the
primary at pitching time? Bread yeast is cheap and plentiful, so this
would be a big plus for me. Although I guess DAP isn't that expensive
either.
I've read this suggestion before although I've never tried it. Someone
(sorry) posted that some of the yeast could survive by sticking to the
side or maybe riding on foam or something. My main point is that DAP
(diammonium phosphate) is not recommended for beer. If you insist on
using nutrients, get one that is a blend of yeast hulls, DAP and vitamins.
I've had only good experiences with Fermax (made by Siebel, distributed
by Crosby & Baker... ask your retailer to order it for you).
***
Dave writes:
>The first conversion is a recipe I am interested in calls for 3oz. Raspberry
>Extract. If I was to substitute it for real raspberries, how much should I
>use?
That reads a bit odd... presumably Dave wants to substitute *real* fruit
for extract. Good choice! To exactly duplicate the flavour of the extract,
I'd recommend adding some cough syrup, but seriously, it depends on how much
raspberry aroma you want (the flavour of raspberries is quite simply sweet &
sour... aroma is what differentiates raspberries from cherries, etc.).
In an average-gravity pale beer, I would use 1/2 pound of raspberries per
gallon to get a mild raspberry character and 1 pound per gallon to get a
moderate character. I had great success pasteurising mushed-up frozen
raspberries by heating them to between 140 and 150F for 10 minutes. A
double-boiler is a good idea if you have one. Add the fruit to finished
beer and make sure you are prepared for either blowoff or have a LOT (>20%)
of headspace in the fermenter. After two raspberry brew explosions, I can
tell you firsthand that it's not a pretty sight.
***
Tony writes:
>Be aware however that over acidification of the wort may result in poor
>or no Hot break formation (Thanks to AlK for that one. By the way Al
>Around what pH does this start to become apparent?)
Malting and Brewing Science says that break formation *begins* to be
reduced below 5.0 pH, although I feel that it doesn't really get to be
a problem until about 4.8.
***
Vince writes:
>In the last 2-3 batches I have ended up with a dirty
>dishwater after taste. I have replaced tubing performed acid lye baths on
>both carboys, cleaned and recleaned my buckets...... this leaves the
>bottles. How is the best way to clean bottles? Also what is the best way
>to clean plastic?
Hmmm... dirty dishwater... can't say I've tasted it, but could you mean
"soapy?" If so, then the First Draft Brewclub in Madison, Wisconsin
did an experiment where they split a batch into two carboys. One carboy
got all the break and the other got almost none. The "double break"
batch tasted slightly soapy.
I use 1 tablespoon of bleach per gallon of water for cleaning bottles
and plastic. Stains in plastic may require soaking after which there
could be a chlorine smell... a day in sunlight will usually get rid of
those aromas and sometimes a week in the sun will remove stains that
bleach won't!
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:59:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: brewpub offerings
I was recently in Boston on business, and since I was basically on my
own, I stopped in several brewpubs (Back Bay Brewing, John Harvards,
Sam Adams, Boston Beer Works) for food and drink. This isn't a knock
on these pubs, but we've discussed here the need/desire for protein
rests, fermentation strategies, etc. Would it be fair to say that if
all of your beers are made with a single temperature infusion mash,
and 80% 2-row, and you use the same yeast strain for each, and the
same fermentation strategy, that you're going to end up with beers
that all pretty much taste the same? When it's difficult for me to
tell the difference between a Hefeweizen and an IPA, or between an
Amber and a Summer Blond, things are bad. I was thinking that this
may be one reason that many are coming up with beers such as Blueberry
Stout, or Honey Peach Amber, etc. In order to create a beer that
doesn't taste like all of their others, brewers have to resort to
using fruit extracts or a similar strategy.
SM
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:32:34 -0700
From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: Chest Freezer Thanks
A while back I posted a dilemma I had with my chest freezer. I bought a 7.2
cu ft freezer that just fit in my back closet (condos stink!, although I am
spitting distance from Wrigley field and the 151 Sheridan bus...). I was
horrified because when I got it home I realized I was one inch away from
really packing it to the gills. I couldn't fit 2 carboys in it (Shelf was
too high), and I could only use 12 oz bottles and stack them 2 high on the
shelf. Yuck, talk about limiting. I really wanted to ferment 2 carboys at a
time, and stack 22ozbottles. I had a lot of wasted space. I posted my
dilemma and got the following suggestions.
1. Secondary in Cornies - Nope, costs money, more things to store in my
cramped condo, and I like to do 6 gallon ferments (more beer = more fun).
2. Use the Poplin cube thingies Dave Line talked about in his book. - Nope,
costs money, more things to store in a cramped condo, and I'm a plastic
bigot. Also I heard they can be more difficult to clean than a carboy. I
LOVE my 6.5 gallon fermenter....
3. Make a rim out of 2x4s and re-mount the lid, this effectively extends the
top a few inches. --- Hey , now that's a winner!
I made my "rim" this weekend, bottled and am brewing tonight. Pretty soon
I'll have A) Stock, B) A secondary ferment, and C) another primary ferment.
Cost me $10 and works great for me! I haven't noticed the compressor going
on more often.
Great options all, I chose the one for my system and limitations (did I
mention condos suck?).
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'd mention you all by name, but I
cleaned out my e-mail recently and deleted the responses.
- Mike from Chicago. Just 62 homebrews away from Roger Maris' record.....
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:02:36 -0600
From: Kevin TenBrink <tenbrink at jps.net>
Subject: Ales worth mentioning
In #2795, Steve Alexander wrote:
>>why not share the experience with a few dozen or perhaps a few hundred
Internet friends and
let them profit from your experience ?<<
In response I say:
If in the Salt Lake City area, try "Full Suspension Pale Ale" from
(Squatter's aka Salt Lake Brewing Co.) and/or King's Peak Porter from
Uinta Brewing.
Utah may have some strange liquor laws, and all the microbreweries have
to brew to 3.2% abw, but these 2 beers really are good. They are
available at grocery stores and on tap at lots of pubs around the city.
Squatters is a brewpub and has an excellent menu, while Uinta is a
microbrewery only with a small tasting room but no restaurant.
Cheers
Kevin
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 22:47:44 -0400
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Bavarian Wheat, the head returns!
Greetings,
I realize that I risk being certified as insane here, but I just have to
post this and see if anyone has ever seen anything like this and can offer
an explanation. Back in June, I brewed a Bavarian wheat fermented with
the Weinhenstephen (3068) strain. It came out as nearly perfect as I
could imagine with a wonderful dense and persistent head, and a nice
balance of 3068 character with slight bittering and a modest amount of
malt character. The only problem as you may recall is that it lost its
ability to hold the head in less than two weeks. It was definitely not
flat as it was carbonated to 3.5 volumes initially. The head would just
coalesce as quickly as it formed.
This was an 11 gallon batch split into two 5 gallon Cornelius kegs. I
continued drinking the first keg for a couple weeks despite the lack of
head, but then decided to give the other keg a try. I was pleased to find
that it held its head like the original and tasted just fine. That keg
being just about dry now, I switched back to the original keg expecting to
find it as headless as before. Well, it wasn't. It actually formed and
held its just about the same as the other keg. The taste is a little
different, but not out of character or offensive in any way.
I was willing to accept that the one keg had become contaminated with a
wild yeast, but the return of the head has left me totally baffled. Could
it be that there was a temporary excess of some foam-negative compound,
that was slowly metabolized by the remaining yeast to yield a final
product with desirable heading characteristics? Or could there have been
some stratification in the kegs, such that I just needed to get past some
layer and the beer would have been fine?
Thanks in advance.
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net> Dave Humes
- -----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:24:43 -0700
From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Hops-Off-The-Vine
To: Ian Smith
You asked about using hops direct off the vine
and into your beer. Do it! I did it last year, and
it is beautiful! Outstanding flavor, and there is an
improvement in the foamy head. I can hardly wait until
my hop flowers are ready---any day now.
I still haven't figured out the exact equivalent to
normal dried hops---I was using a plastic tupper-ware
about four inches square to equal 1/2 ounce of dried hops.
I'm using noble hops exclusively for bittering, flavor,
and aroma. You might need a different size container if
you are using high-Alpha hops. Try it on your next beer
and let us know your results! It's the only way!
I wish I could use fresh-off-the-vine hops all year!
Joe Kish
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:46:52 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Why multi-step starters?
I have read much about the need to step up starters gradually, i.e., one
should not increase the volume of the starter more than about 5-fold at
each step. I contrast this with the fact that the liquid yeast suppliers
sell their products of about 50 mL yeast cultures to be pitched into 5
gallons of wort. Now, I'm not asking, "What's the need for a starter?".
But since multiple stepping up of starters is VERY time and labor
consuming, what is lost by simply pitching a 50 mL pack into a 2 liter
starter. I would guess that the difference between pitching straight into
5 gallons versus pitching into 2 liters would be MUCH greater than the
difference between the latter starter method and employing three steps up
to 2 liter starter and then into 5 gallons.
How will the cell counts likely compare at the end of these two starter
methods? (It is not intuitively obvious to me why they would be.) Could
someone explain why they would be different? What other differences can
one expect between these two starter methods? Any technical references to
the answers to these questions would be appreciated.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:10:37 EDT
From: Jebbly at aol.com
Subject: how do i increase my batch size?
i am currently mashing 5 gal batches. my sparge takes about 45 minutes.
how do i increase the size of my batches to 10 or 15 gals?
do i simply double or triple the amount of grains, or are there proportions
involved?
ditto with hops?
how about my sparge time...do i open up the flow and sparge 12 to 17 gals in
45 minutes, or do i keep the same flow and sparge for 90 to 135 minutes? how
much sparge water should i plan to use for the larger batches?
thanks and good brewing,
dave grommons.
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:30:24 -0400
From: "Buchanan, Robert" <RBuchanan at ChristianaCare.org>
Subject: Clinitest Again
IN HBD #2795 Tim Green questions the added expense of using Clinitest to
determine if a beer is "finished".
snip> could someone explain why I should spend an additional $30-$40 of my
hard earned money on something that I am currently doing with a hydrometer
every time I make a batch of beer. It seems very simple to me. If the SG
doesn't change over 2-3 samples 2-3 days apart, fermentation is finished.
Why buy something
else?
Well Tim could your wort be "stuck"? Is there a possibility the yeast has
not attenuated your beer enough for appropriate style ? A hydrometer reading
gives an approximate reading of total content. I agree if there is no drop
over 2-3 days the beer is done. But that's all it tells you. Could it go
further? Clinitest gives you the "fermentables" still left in your beer.
This additional info is helpful especially with an unknown recipe or yeast
strain. If everything has proceeded according to plan and the beer "behaved"
just as you thought it should, well a Clinitest would not be neccesary. If
something is wrong or not "quite" right then the Clinitest data is an
additional data point that would be useful. As always what "works" for you
might not be enough for someone else. Spare yourself the expense and
continue making your beer "your" way.
Bob Buchanan
"Anything not nailed down is mine. Anything I can pry loose is not nailed
down."
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:08:16 -0400
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at scsn.net>
Subject: LME Help
I rarely use ME of any sort and have kinda lost touch
with what is good stuff and what is not. Chance to
get some Mt. Mellineck (sp., the Irish stuff) LME at a
good price. Use LME for teaching newbies, but want
their beer to be drinkable. Any help?
Thanks
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