HOMEBREW Digest #2798 Sat 15 August 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  BJCP Exam in Montreal (Denis Barsalo)
  sulfites and killer yeasts ("phil grossblatt")
  What is this magic powder called Copper Clear? (Mick Honnor)
  Sahti / Indy Beer Event / CAP kinda ale (David A Bradley)
  honey wheat, double pitching (Earl & Karen Bright)
  Re: Wyeast 2007 (Jeff Renner)
  Tapioca in brewing (Results)
  Volatile Acidity (AJ)
  fruit question (melomel) (LEAVITDG)
  Will I like this beer? (haafbrau1)
  Wild yeast characterisitcs (George_De_Piro)
  Badger's double runnings (The Wind in the Mash Tun?); 14C much cooler than now (Samuel Mize)
  Mia culpa! (George_De_Piro)
  Re: Badger's Double Mash ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Volatile acidity, ("David R. Burley")
  Counter Pressure Filling (Robert Arguello)
  $6-8 (Al Korzonas)
  Wanted - Pilsner Urquell Recipe - All Grain (Andrew McGowan)
  Briess ESB malt (Charles Epp)
  KROC World Brewers Forum (BrewsTraveler)
  Irish Beer, non-stout? (KROONEY)
  Thanks ("Dawn Watkins")
  yeast reuse/DAP/raspberries/boil pH and break/dishwater beer (Al Korzonas)
  brewpub offerings (Scott Murman)
  Chest Freezer Thanks ("Michael Kowalczyk")
  Ales worth mentioning (Kevin TenBrink)
  Bavarian Wheat, the head returns! (Dave Humes)
  Hops-Off-The-Vine ("J. Kish")
  Why multi-step starters? (Fred Johnson)
  how do i increase my batch size? (Jebbly)
  Clinitest Again ("Buchanan, Robert")
  LME Help ("H. Dowda")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:03:29 -0400 From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at cam.org> Subject: BJCP Exam in Montreal For anyone interested, There will be a BJCP exam in Montreal on October 10th. In case you want to make it a holiday weekend trip, that happens to be the Memorial Day/Canadian Thanksgiving weekend! The exam is sponsored by CABA (The Canadian Amateur Brewers Association) and anyone wanting additional information should contact me. Space is limited and you must register in advance. Thank you Denis Barsalo CABA Montreal Regional Rep Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:59:49 -0600 From: "phil grossblatt" <philgro at swcp.com> Subject: sulfites and killer yeasts Dave Burley wrote: > Sulfite, as I pointed out, is a by-product of many wine yeasts' > fermentation. It is a natural product which they make to protect their > turf ( the grape must) from other yeasts and bacteria. Lallemand > calls this phenomenon a "killer Strain" of yeast, but it is quite normal > and natural. Sulfites are produced by yeasts,but I don't think we can assume they do it to protect their turf.Sulfites have nothing in particuliar to do with "killer yeasts"(and I'm sure that Lallemand doesn't claim they do). The "killer factor" is some sort of protein (perhaps an enzyme?) that is toxic to most other yeasts. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 11:23:24 BST From: Mick Honnor <M.E.Honnor at swansea.ac.uk> Subject: What is this magic powder called Copper Clear? Hi My local brew pub said that commercal brewers do not use Irish moss, but use a product called "copper clear" which he described as an enzyne which is the active ingredient in Irish moss. He gets it passed to him from a large brewery in South Wales. The dossage is 10grams per barrel (36 U.K. gallons) for the last five minutes of the boil. If fizzes when you add it. It is wonderful stuff, there is a lot of cold break and the wort is crystal clear if allowed to settal for a couple of minutes. There is simply too much cold break material to filter out though the hop bed. Does anyone know what this product is or any ideas as to what it may be? Irish moss (and presumably carrageenan) are not enzymatic, so it cannot be an enzyne which is the active ingredient in Irish moss. Cheers Mick Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:23:36 -0500 From: David A Bradley <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at lilly.com> Subject: Sahti / Indy Beer Event / CAP kinda ale Another approach to the conceptually interesting beverage Sahti (see current BT), which has been a nano-thread recently....why not use First Mash Hopping (FMH) to get some hop character too? That's putting your hops in the mash tun. Or just more authentic First Mash Junipering (FMJ)? Note that the original process is essentially FWJ-ing. I like the suggestion recently made on HBD to use a gallon or so of your first runoff for a Sahti, not only because of convenience, but also because of the need to consume Sahti when its fresh. Indiana Microbrewer's Festival 1998...its coming up on Sept 5th, 2-6pm in Broadripple Village at Optimist Park (near the IN Arts Center). Its a good fest w/food and bands + local and regional brewers. Cost $17 advance, and it *will* sell out again this year! CAP errr CAA since it was an ale. I brewed one back in May, and it turned out very nice. I did a cereal mash (fun, as Jeff mentions). My OG was higher than expected, but the finished beer was much lighter in taste than the all barley beer would have been. Interesting taste, though I think the corn character was hidden beneath the ale yeast's. I'll brew it again. It was a hit with most drinkers at a summer party, this in spite of its potency and the heat! Dave in Indy Home of the (nearly unused) 3-B Brewery, Ltd. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:43:56 -0400 From: denali at epix.net (Earl & Karen Bright) Subject: honey wheat, double pitching Does anybody have a good recipe for a honey wheat brew. Similar to Pete's Wicked Honey Wheat. I was brewing a wheat beer and noticed very little activity after about one week, so when I transfered to my secondary fermenter, I pitched another batcj of yeast. The beer has a fruity aftertaste, is this due to the second pitching??? Also will this increase to alcohol content? Please help this novice brewer!!! EARL! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:45:02 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Wyeast 2007 Writing about acetaldehyde and Wyeast 2007, I wrote >There was also a fair amount of diacetyl in a pale lager (forget ^^^^^^^^^ >which style) that I judged this weekend for the Michigan State Fair, and I >didn't care for that aspect. It may well have been fermented with 2007. I meant to write "acetaldehyde," which may have been apparent from the context. Brain cramp. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:53:03 -0500 From: Results <results at win.bright.net> Subject: Tapioca in brewing I had an old retired guy show up in the brewery one day that had retired from Pabst after about 33 years there doing just about everything. He said that during the WWII years when malt (and just about everything else) was hard to get, they used a great deal of Manioca (from the thickened roots of sweet or bitter cassava pants - then grown in Brazil). He mentioned that they used it with reasonably good results. The MBAA original Practical brewer mentions this along with Whey and Potatoes as things that can be used in a pinch. Randy Lee Viking Brewing Company Dallas, WI http://www.win.bright.net Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:19:08 -0400 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Volatile Acidity Lou Heavner asked if volatile acidity is the same as total acidity and whether it can be measured with a pH meter. The answers are "No" and "No". Volatile acidity is a component of total acidity i.e. total acidity = volatile acidity plus non-volatile acidity. The volatile part is the part that is driven off if the wine (or beer) is heated. Volatile acidity is measured by distilling the beverage in question, making up the volume of the distillate to the volume originally placed in the distillation flask and then titrating this diluted distillate with sodium hydroxide, or another suitable alkali, until neutrality is reached. A pH measurement alone will not suffice to determine either volatile or total alkalinity though a pH meter may be used to indicate the titration end point. The major component of volatile acidity in wine is acetic acid. As there is little of this in most beers (exception - lambics) volatile acidity is not usually of concern to brewers. DeClerk mentions that if volatile acidity is high it can lead to errors in estimation of alcohol content when distillation and gravimetry are used. In these cases he recommends redistilling the titrated first distillation. The acetic acid therein will have been converted to non-volatile acetate ion by the addition of the base during the titration. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:02:39 -0500 (EST) From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU Subject: fruit question (melomel) Date sent: 13-AUG-1998 09:00:05 I have now seen posted a few times a procedure that I hadn't been aware of; that is, freezing the peaches. I had thought that one should take them up to about 170 degrees to kill bacteria, but that if one goes higher that it will release? pectins? Could someone straighten me out on this one? Is it easier/better to clean fruit, then freeze it? What happens to the bacteria? ...Darrell _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/Darrell Leavitt _/ _/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/ _/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu _/ _/AX25 : n2ixl at kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:59:16 -0400 From: haafbrau1 at juno.com Subject: Will I like this beer? One more reason to shell out the $6-8 bucks yourself, instead of me telling you what's good, is as follows- What I think is the best brew in the world, you may consider skunk p*ss. (Nothing against skunk p*ss, something has to keep the ignorant masses happy) Maybe I got the overheated truckload of an otherwise excellant micro. Maybe you got the 6 pack sitting under the flourescent lights too long. Maybe I'm a twisted individual that enjoys telling folks what an excellant beer Spoogles is, even though I know I spent $7 bucks too much on a $5.00 6 pack. Misery loves company sometimes. Just my two cents plain. Paul Haaf haafbrau1 at juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:06:29 -0700 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com Subject: Wild yeast characterisitcs Hi all, Paul talks about a dubbel he brewed with Wyeast 1214. He says that it is not aging to his liking: >After 6+ months, though, the beer had dried out considerably. The >maltiness was very subdued, and a very tart aftertaste cropped up. He goes on to say that he doubts that it is a wild yeast problem because there is no diacetyl. Diacetyl is not usually associated with wild yeast problems (it is associated with bacterial problems, specifically Pediococcus). If the beer is getting really sour, but doesn't smell like vinegar, I'd guess that it is a lactobacillus infection. If it does smell like vinegar, acetobacter are the likely cause. If wild yeast is the problem, I would expect the bottles to become overcarbonated with time. They may (or may not) acquire phenolic character in time, too. Astringency can also develop (some phenols are astringent). Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:56:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net> Subject: Badger's double runnings (The Wind in the Mash Tun?); 14C much cooler than now >From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> >Subject: Help with All Grain - no sparge, 2 runnings >I am about ready to make the next step into All grain. (wait for the cheers >to die down..) But, i want to do some slightly non-standard things. Well then of course you will fail. You should do everything the one way that everyone else here does them. (wait for guffaws to die down -- we can argue for days about how to boil water...) >I would like to formulate recipies that allows me to get 2 separate batches >from one grain bill. ... they mention a >recipie by Jethro Gump that yields a 5 gallons fo barley wine (13%), and 10 >gallons of small beer. (4-5%). > >...as a Historicalicly inclined brewer (but not speller) You're a very historically inclined speller ;-) and nobody here cares. >I would like to modify the >historical method slightly tho, to get a decent regular ale as the second >runnings. medievally the second runnings, Table beer, was fairly weak. I promise, real data at last. As you point out, your process will be "out of period," so this is just for funsies. The trouble is that none of us here knows how efficient your system is. That is, we don't know how much sugar you're producing from a pound of malt, or how efficiently you're rinsing it out of the tun. However, to produce a stronger second beer, just stop taking the second runnings before they get too weak. With Jethro's recipe, you might get 5 gallons of barleywine and 6 gallons of normal ale. Another brewer might get 4 gallons of barleywine and 5 gallons of ale. The simplest approach would be to use a normal recipe for your second beer, but use half-again to twice as much grain. The strong beer will be a stronger version of the weaker, so you can make an Imperial stout and a session stout, or a barleywine and an English ale, for example. Have a target specific gravity for the heavy batch. Take the specific gravity of the first runnings, they will be over that target by some amount (we hope). Stop taking runnings for the heavy beer when the specific gravity of the runnings gets that far below your target, so the average will be about on target (or when you fill your brewpot, whichever comes first). This should get you into the ballpark for your first beer. Use the same rough method to hit your gravity target for the second beer. Once you've done this a few times, you'll know what kind of efficiency to expect from your system, and you'll be able to predict how much first and second runnings to expect from your system. You can also fling some specialty grains in for the second runnings -- anything, like crystal malt, that doesn't need mashing. "If given a blank canvas a SCAthian will go out and LEARN how to make paint." [Kimmer Bayleaf] >for purposes of this discussion, i am using a 5 gallon converted cooler i >bought from a brewer guy. This may be too small for a full five-gallon batch strong enough to leave good second runnings. There's good info at http://www.brewery.org about how much water and space you need for a given amount of grain, email me if you can't find it. The point was never to make a great second beer. The medieval brewer just didn't want to waste the food value left in the tun after making a strong beer, so he rinsed out the sugar with more water and made a small beer. Also, since they believed that drinking plain water was not healthy, this let the brewer "treat" more water and make it safe. (Given medieval sanitation, by the way, they were right -- boiling the water for brewing made it MUCH safer.) To make a strong beer all-grain, you have two choices: (1) Draw normal runnings and boil them down (2) Mash "too much" grain and draw only the strong runnings These aren't mutually exclusive, you can draw strong first runnings and boil them down even stronger. A long boil affects the flavor, good for Scottish Ales but not for Pilsners, for example. Of course, making a strong beer with just extract is easier, proving that this is a better way to brew a strong beer. (Put down that rifle, it's a joke.) You could keep some malt extract handy, with which to fortify the second runnings if necessary. - - - - - - - - - - Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> ends a note with: >Al. >(short for Algis) >(short for Algirdas, king of Lithuania in the 14th century) And now you're stuck in Illinois with us? Gee, the centuries haven't been kind to you, Al. :-) Best, Sam Mize - -- Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:11:37 -0700 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com Subject: Mia culpa! Hi all, Just a quick note to correct my post about yeast growth. I incorrectly stated that it was Jim and Spencer discussing said topic. It was in fact Steve Alexander, not Spencer. Their first names both start with "S." Yeah, that's it... Sorry if any of the parties were offended. Have fun! George _ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:54:53 -0700 From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Badger's Double Mash Badger asks about double-mashing, or parti-gyle brewing, as a way to emulate our medieval predecessors. Mark Prior posted an in- depth formula to predict the gravities involved on July 16, 1997, which is a good place to start. I pretty much skipped the formula and used his example results, which show that for a 50/50 volume split, 70% of the gravity points will be in the first runnings, and 30% in the second. For 12 lbs of malt in a 5-gal mashtun, that predicts 2.5 gals of 1.100 barleywine and 2.5 gals of 1.040 small beer or bitter. This calculation worked out well for my Big 10/20 Barleywine (1.098) and Little 5/10 Bitter (1.039). The bitter (my wife's favorite in a while--I like it when that happens!) was quite tasty and is, alas, long gone. The barleywine is still conditioning in the keg, until I can make myself bottle it. As an aside, I saw in the news that Anchor is now making a small beer from the second runnings of Old Foghorn, though it is only available in the Bay area and in 22 oz bottles (the small beer in the big bottle?). TIdmarsh Major Birmingham, Alabama tidmarsh at mindspring.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:06:09 -0400 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Volatile acidity, Brewsters: Lou Heavener ask about volatile acidity and how to measure it. In winemaking, volatile acidity is a measure of the amount of acetification the wine has undergone ( often an indication of acetobacter spoilage). It is evaluated by distilling the wine and titrating with sodium hydroxide the acetic acid which was carried over. Non-volatile wine acids like tartartic and malic are often evaluated by titrating the total wine and subtracting out the volatile acidity. Nowadays, thin layer chromatography is often used to evaluate the non-volatile acid content of the wines. Gas chromatogaphy is used to determine volatile acidity as well as alcohol content. pH meters cannot be used directly to determine any kind of acidity, since these are highly buffered solution of acids and acid salts. The pH meter can be used to provide a determination of the endpoint of the titration. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Dave_Burley at compuserve Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:10:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Arguello <robertac at jps.net> Subject: Counter Pressure Filling Hi all, As I have been promising numerous RCB'ers for a few years to do so... I have finally posted photos and diagrams for my "Hands Free" CP filler on my web site. I also included a description of the method I use to CP fill. You can see the article at http://www.jps.net/robertac/cp_fill.htm ******************************************************************** Robert Arguello <robertac at jps.net> CORNY KEGS FOR SALE! $12.00 each http://www.jps.net/robertac/keg.htm ProMash Brewers' Software - http://www.jps.net/robertac/promash ******************************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:03:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: $6-8 Steve writes: >$6-8 bucks isn't enough to phase me, but the insult of paying for premium >product and getting an ale with diacetyl so thick you wonder why the popcorns >isn't crunchy, or other obvious signs of infection hacks me off. Frankly this >doesn't happen a lot, but it happens. The bigger problem is the largish number >of, "Gee this is OK, but I'd rather be drinking something else." beers. There >are far too many reputedly great beer that I haven't yet adequately tasted to >continue the "trial and error' thru the grocery bins. While I have no solution to the $8 "eh... it's okay" beer, I do have a solution to the beer that has insulted you: Bring it *back* to the store. The last time I did this was when I bought four sixpacks from a new micro. I tried one of each and felt they were genuinely bad beer. I brought them back and got something else... I insisted I even get credit for the four beers that insulted me and I got the credit. It helps that I buy beer at this store monthly (like $100) and the owner knows me by name. This further goes to show the benefits of loyalty to a single good retailer for most of your beer (or homebrew supply purchases). Steve's post further mentions sharing good and bad experiences with various micros/brewpubs. I've taken notes on virtually every beer I've tasted in the last 8 years and while recipes may drift or some batches may be better than others, I think that particular beers rarely will change from "outstanding" to "poor" or vice versa. It also helps to know how close a beer is to the style on the label. For example, Schmalz Alt is a lousy Duesseldorfer Altbier, but it's a very respectable Munchner Dunkel. Just one more thing to put on my list of things to put on my website... Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:12:37 -0400 From: Andrew McGowan <AMCGOWAN at WPO.HCC.COM> Subject: Wanted - Pilsner Urquell Recipe - All Grain My wife, who usually doesn't like beer, got to try PU draft last weekend and wants me to brew it ( which I was going to do anyway since I really liked it ). I've searched the archives and Cats Meow and compiled the following: 8 lbs. pilsner 1 lb. light munich 0.5 lb. carapils Mash at 55-60-70, my usual schedule. Add Saaz ( nominal 3.1% AA) 60 min 2 oz, 30 min 0.75 oz and 1 oz at 2 min. Ferment with Wyeast 2124 (Bohemian) and lag about 8 weeks. Any suggestions, recipies or tips would be GREATLY appreciated. TIA!! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:09:39 -0500 From: Charles Epp <chuckepp at ukans.edu> Subject: Briess ESB malt How does the new Briess ESB malt compare to British pale ale malts in terms of quality, performance, etc? I see that it's a little darker (5.5 lovibond, compared to about 3). I'd be interested in hearing from people who've tried it in British ale recipes, especially (but not only) those of you who've used British malts in the past. Thanks. - --Chuck in Lawrence, KS Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:44:43 -0600 (MDT) From: BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com Subject: KROC World Brewers Forum The Keg Ran Out Club presents: _________________________________________________________________ "Real Old Beers" _________________________________________________________________ at the "Fourth Annual KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)" Colorado's Keg Ran Out Club (KROC), presents an educational forum with: Ray Daniels President of the Craft Beer Institute and author of "Designing Great Beers" and "101 Ideas for Homebrew Fun". Brad Kraus 1997 GABF Kolsch Bronze Medal winner and Brewmaster at Wolf Canyon Brewing Company. This landmark event entering its fourth year has brought together the brewing community for an evening of education, discussion, fellowship, and fun! Previous Forum(sm) participants have had the oppurtunitty to participate in discussions concerning Barley Wines, Wit beers, English Ales and Continental Pilseners from world-renown brewers and authors. This is a an excellent opportunity to meet local, national, and international brewers, sample fine beers, and win door prizes. The "KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)" is FREE but attendance is limited so RSVP ASAP! ______________________________________________________________________ When: 7pm Thursday, October 1, 1998 Where: Adam's Mark Hotel 1550 Court Pl, Denver, (303) 893-3333 Cost: FREE! RSVP: (303) 460-1776 (Homebrew Hut) or BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com Web: http://www.henge.com/~mmather/kroc/ ______________________________________________________________________ The KROC World Brewers Forum(tm) is brought to you by: The Keg Ran Out Club (KROC) The American Homebrewers Association The Birko Corporation The Homebrew Hut Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:10:06 -0400 From: KROONEY at genre.com Subject: Irish Beer, non-stout? Other than dry stout, does anyone know of any styles, beers, or beer ingredients that are characteristically Irish? I'm particularly interested in truly Irish offerings, not those brought by the English during their really long visit. Also, is there any way to search the archives without opening up each and every issue? If someone would point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it. Slainte, Kevin Rooney Wilton, CT Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:28:41 -0700 From: "Dawn Watkins" <Dawn.Watkins at mci.com> Subject: Thanks Just wanted to thank everybody for the warm welcome I have recieved. I have gotten all kinds of great suggestions on less bitter beers to try, and beginners books. Should keep me pretty busy for a while! Thanks again, Dawn Watkins Wyterayven at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:45:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: yeast reuse/DAP/raspberries/boil pH and break/dishwater beer A number of questions have been posted over the last few weeks that have remained unanswered... Lou writes: First, I have reused the yeast from the bottom of my fermenter when making ales where I only do a single stage ferment. No problem, as long as I'm careful about sanitation. But if I want to reuse a lager yeast, should I use the yeast in the bottom of the primary or the bottom of the secondary? Typically I secondary and lager in the same carboy (I don't really differentiate between them), so the beer will be sitting on the yeast for quite a while. On the same topic, Sam writes: >Peter Gilbreth <barleywine at prodigy.net> wrote a paragraph I found >confusing. Was Lyn saying that using sediment from either fermenter >(primary or secondary) would select over time for non-flocculent yeast? Peter did follow up on this, but I don't think his followup was much clearer than the initial post. Let me give it a shot. Any large population of yeast will have some variation... some will flocculate earlier than others... some will have slightly better alcohol tolerance, etc. When you *repeatedly* harvest yeast from the primary (presuming that you rack the beer before fermentation has completely finished), you are going to keep getting the *most flocculent* of the yeast. After a number of generations, you will have *selected* the most flocculent yeasts, which are typically the ones that are less- attenuative than the late flocculators (although not always). In this case "selected" is used in the same context as in "natural selection" (i.e. "survival of the fittest"). If you *repeatedly* harvest the yeast from the secondary, you will tend to select the least-flocculent yeasts, which are often the most attenuative. You can used this to your advantage if you seek to get a more- or less- attenuative culture. Now, for one or two generations, the difference will not be measureable. As for reuse, you want to reuse the yeast *shortly* after they have finished their work (regardless of whether you harvest from the primary or secondary). I believe George recently posted that his yeast slurry, after 2 weeks at near freezing was only 50% viable. (By the way, George... what was the viability at the beginning of the two weeks?) This is one data point for one strain... other strains may be 80% viable after this same storage... still others may be only 20% viable. To be on the safe side, I would recommend using the yeast within a week of it settling. If you intend to reuse the yeast, I suggest that you shorten the time in the primary and rack to the secondary rather early. You may need to use an increased height difference between the primary and secondary (faster flow rate) so that the CO2 released during racking doesn't break the siphon. Then, use the yeast from the secondary after racking the finished beer to the lagering tertiary. My recommendation really has to do with reducing the amount of break that you carry over into the new batch and less to do with yeast selection. I've done the opposite (longer primary and reuse primary dregs) and I think it may have made that second batch just a bit soapy (from all that break). For ales, I only reuse yeast when pitching BIG beers like Barleywines. In these cases, I have found no problems at all with using the entire yeast cake from a previous batch of normal-gravity beer, but there are so many powerful flavours in Barleywines that a few off notes will be lost in the noise. Recently, I've been thinking that repitching only 1/2 or 1/3 of the previous batch's yeast cake might be better than repitching the whole thing. The growth will make for a younger yeast population and the oxygen and FAN will be shared by a smaller population (more O2 and FAN per cell). *** Lou also asks: I have heard that some yeast nutrient is DAP or synthetic chemicals like that. But other yeast nutrients are actually spent/dead/destroyed yeast cells. If that is true, would it be possible to feed the live beer yeast with a packet of my wife's bread yeast that had been previously boiled? If so, would it be better to add the packet to the wort kettle? to boiling starter wort? to the primary at pitching time? Bread yeast is cheap and plentiful, so this would be a big plus for me. Although I guess DAP isn't that expensive either. I've read this suggestion before although I've never tried it. Someone (sorry) posted that some of the yeast could survive by sticking to the side or maybe riding on foam or something. My main point is that DAP (diammonium phosphate) is not recommended for beer. If you insist on using nutrients, get one that is a blend of yeast hulls, DAP and vitamins. I've had only good experiences with Fermax (made by Siebel, distributed by Crosby & Baker... ask your retailer to order it for you). *** Dave writes: >The first conversion is a recipe I am interested in calls for 3oz. Raspberry >Extract. If I was to substitute it for real raspberries, how much should I >use? That reads a bit odd... presumably Dave wants to substitute *real* fruit for extract. Good choice! To exactly duplicate the flavour of the extract, I'd recommend adding some cough syrup, but seriously, it depends on how much raspberry aroma you want (the flavour of raspberries is quite simply sweet & sour... aroma is what differentiates raspberries from cherries, etc.). In an average-gravity pale beer, I would use 1/2 pound of raspberries per gallon to get a mild raspberry character and 1 pound per gallon to get a moderate character. I had great success pasteurising mushed-up frozen raspberries by heating them to between 140 and 150F for 10 minutes. A double-boiler is a good idea if you have one. Add the fruit to finished beer and make sure you are prepared for either blowoff or have a LOT (>20%) of headspace in the fermenter. After two raspberry brew explosions, I can tell you firsthand that it's not a pretty sight. *** Tony writes: >Be aware however that over acidification of the wort may result in poor >or no Hot break formation (Thanks to AlK for that one. By the way Al >Around what pH does this start to become apparent?) Malting and Brewing Science says that break formation *begins* to be reduced below 5.0 pH, although I feel that it doesn't really get to be a problem until about 4.8. *** Vince writes: >In the last 2-3 batches I have ended up with a dirty >dishwater after taste. I have replaced tubing performed acid lye baths on >both carboys, cleaned and recleaned my buckets...... this leaves the >bottles. How is the best way to clean bottles? Also what is the best way >to clean plastic? Hmmm... dirty dishwater... can't say I've tasted it, but could you mean "soapy?" If so, then the First Draft Brewclub in Madison, Wisconsin did an experiment where they split a batch into two carboys. One carboy got all the break and the other got almost none. The "double break" batch tasted slightly soapy. I use 1 tablespoon of bleach per gallon of water for cleaning bottles and plastic. Stains in plastic may require soaking after which there could be a chlorine smell... a day in sunlight will usually get rid of those aromas and sometimes a week in the sun will remove stains that bleach won't! Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:59:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: brewpub offerings I was recently in Boston on business, and since I was basically on my own, I stopped in several brewpubs (Back Bay Brewing, John Harvards, Sam Adams, Boston Beer Works) for food and drink. This isn't a knock on these pubs, but we've discussed here the need/desire for protein rests, fermentation strategies, etc. Would it be fair to say that if all of your beers are made with a single temperature infusion mash, and 80% 2-row, and you use the same yeast strain for each, and the same fermentation strategy, that you're going to end up with beers that all pretty much taste the same? When it's difficult for me to tell the difference between a Hefeweizen and an IPA, or between an Amber and a Summer Blond, things are bad. I was thinking that this may be one reason that many are coming up with beers such as Blueberry Stout, or Honey Peach Amber, etc. In order to create a beer that doesn't taste like all of their others, brewers have to resort to using fruit extracts or a similar strategy. SM Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:32:34 -0700 From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net> Subject: Chest Freezer Thanks A while back I posted a dilemma I had with my chest freezer. I bought a 7.2 cu ft freezer that just fit in my back closet (condos stink!, although I am spitting distance from Wrigley field and the 151 Sheridan bus...). I was horrified because when I got it home I realized I was one inch away from really packing it to the gills. I couldn't fit 2 carboys in it (Shelf was too high), and I could only use 12 oz bottles and stack them 2 high on the shelf. Yuck, talk about limiting. I really wanted to ferment 2 carboys at a time, and stack 22ozbottles. I had a lot of wasted space. I posted my dilemma and got the following suggestions. 1. Secondary in Cornies - Nope, costs money, more things to store in my cramped condo, and I like to do 6 gallon ferments (more beer = more fun). 2. Use the Poplin cube thingies Dave Line talked about in his book. - Nope, costs money, more things to store in a cramped condo, and I'm a plastic bigot. Also I heard they can be more difficult to clean than a carboy. I LOVE my 6.5 gallon fermenter.... 3. Make a rim out of 2x4s and re-mount the lid, this effectively extends the top a few inches. --- Hey , now that's a winner! I made my "rim" this weekend, bottled and am brewing tonight. Pretty soon I'll have A) Stock, B) A secondary ferment, and C) another primary ferment. Cost me $10 and works great for me! I haven't noticed the compressor going on more often. Great options all, I chose the one for my system and limitations (did I mention condos suck?). Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'd mention you all by name, but I cleaned out my e-mail recently and deleted the responses. - Mike from Chicago. Just 62 homebrews away from Roger Maris' record..... Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:02:36 -0600 From: Kevin TenBrink <tenbrink at jps.net> Subject: Ales worth mentioning In #2795, Steve Alexander wrote: >>why not share the experience with a few dozen or perhaps a few hundred Internet friends and let them profit from your experience ?<< In response I say: If in the Salt Lake City area, try "Full Suspension Pale Ale" from (Squatter's aka Salt Lake Brewing Co.) and/or King's Peak Porter from Uinta Brewing. Utah may have some strange liquor laws, and all the microbreweries have to brew to 3.2% abw, but these 2 beers really are good. They are available at grocery stores and on tap at lots of pubs around the city. Squatters is a brewpub and has an excellent menu, while Uinta is a microbrewery only with a small tasting room but no restaurant. Cheers Kevin Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 22:47:44 -0400 From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net> Subject: Bavarian Wheat, the head returns! Greetings, I realize that I risk being certified as insane here, but I just have to post this and see if anyone has ever seen anything like this and can offer an explanation. Back in June, I brewed a Bavarian wheat fermented with the Weinhenstephen (3068) strain. It came out as nearly perfect as I could imagine with a wonderful dense and persistent head, and a nice balance of 3068 character with slight bittering and a modest amount of malt character. The only problem as you may recall is that it lost its ability to hold the head in less than two weeks. It was definitely not flat as it was carbonated to 3.5 volumes initially. The head would just coalesce as quickly as it formed. This was an 11 gallon batch split into two 5 gallon Cornelius kegs. I continued drinking the first keg for a couple weeks despite the lack of head, but then decided to give the other keg a try. I was pleased to find that it held its head like the original and tasted just fine. That keg being just about dry now, I switched back to the original keg expecting to find it as headless as before. Well, it wasn't. It actually formed and held its just about the same as the other keg. The taste is a little different, but not out of character or offensive in any way. I was willing to accept that the one keg had become contaminated with a wild yeast, but the return of the head has left me totally baffled. Could it be that there was a temporary excess of some foam-negative compound, that was slowly metabolized by the remaining yeast to yield a final product with desirable heading characteristics? Or could there have been some stratification in the kegs, such that I just needed to get past some layer and the beer would have been fine? Thanks in advance. - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net> Dave Humes - ----------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:24:43 -0700 From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Hops-Off-The-Vine To: Ian Smith You asked about using hops direct off the vine and into your beer. Do it! I did it last year, and it is beautiful! Outstanding flavor, and there is an improvement in the foamy head. I can hardly wait until my hop flowers are ready---any day now. I still haven't figured out the exact equivalent to normal dried hops---I was using a plastic tupper-ware about four inches square to equal 1/2 ounce of dried hops. I'm using noble hops exclusively for bittering, flavor, and aroma. You might need a different size container if you are using high-Alpha hops. Try it on your next beer and let us know your results! It's the only way! I wish I could use fresh-off-the-vine hops all year! Joe Kish Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:46:52 -0400 From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Why multi-step starters? I have read much about the need to step up starters gradually, i.e., one should not increase the volume of the starter more than about 5-fold at each step. I contrast this with the fact that the liquid yeast suppliers sell their products of about 50 mL yeast cultures to be pitched into 5 gallons of wort. Now, I'm not asking, "What's the need for a starter?". But since multiple stepping up of starters is VERY time and labor consuming, what is lost by simply pitching a 50 mL pack into a 2 liter starter. I would guess that the difference between pitching straight into 5 gallons versus pitching into 2 liters would be MUCH greater than the difference between the latter starter method and employing three steps up to 2 liter starter and then into 5 gallons. How will the cell counts likely compare at the end of these two starter methods? (It is not intuitively obvious to me why they would be.) Could someone explain why they would be different? What other differences can one expect between these two starter methods? Any technical references to the answers to these questions would be appreciated. - -- Fred L. Johnson Apex, North Carolina Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:10:37 EDT From: Jebbly at aol.com Subject: how do i increase my batch size? i am currently mashing 5 gal batches. my sparge takes about 45 minutes. how do i increase the size of my batches to 10 or 15 gals? do i simply double or triple the amount of grains, or are there proportions involved? ditto with hops? how about my sparge time...do i open up the flow and sparge 12 to 17 gals in 45 minutes, or do i keep the same flow and sparge for 90 to 135 minutes? how much sparge water should i plan to use for the larger batches? thanks and good brewing, dave grommons. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:30:24 -0400 From: "Buchanan, Robert" <RBuchanan at ChristianaCare.org> Subject: Clinitest Again IN HBD #2795 Tim Green questions the added expense of using Clinitest to determine if a beer is "finished". snip> could someone explain why I should spend an additional $30-$40 of my hard earned money on something that I am currently doing with a hydrometer every time I make a batch of beer. It seems very simple to me. If the SG doesn't change over 2-3 samples 2-3 days apart, fermentation is finished. Why buy something else? Well Tim could your wort be "stuck"? Is there a possibility the yeast has not attenuated your beer enough for appropriate style ? A hydrometer reading gives an approximate reading of total content. I agree if there is no drop over 2-3 days the beer is done. But that's all it tells you. Could it go further? Clinitest gives you the "fermentables" still left in your beer. This additional info is helpful especially with an unknown recipe or yeast strain. If everything has proceeded according to plan and the beer "behaved" just as you thought it should, well a Clinitest would not be neccesary. If something is wrong or not "quite" right then the Clinitest data is an additional data point that would be useful. As always what "works" for you might not be enough for someone else. Spare yourself the expense and continue making your beer "your" way. Bob Buchanan "Anything not nailed down is mine. Anything I can pry loose is not nailed down." Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:08:16 -0400 From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at scsn.net> Subject: LME Help I rarely use ME of any sort and have kinda lost touch with what is good stuff and what is not. Chance to get some Mt. Mellineck (sp., the Irish stuff) LME at a good price. Use LME for teaching newbies, but want their beer to be drinkable. Any help? Thanks Return to table of contents
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