---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Its the new dance craze... (Charley Burns)
  pitching rate ("Dr. Pivo")
  oxygenation ("charles beaver")
  oxygenation ("charles beaver")
  Pracitical Matters (Jim Liddil)
  wort chiller (Michael Lausin)
  Alt hopping schedule ("Chuck Mryglot")
  Hops ("Swintosky, Michael D.")
  Oven bottle sterilization ("Steve Blanchard")
  Broken Necks/Name that off flavor... ("Frederick J. Wills")
  Re: HSA ad infinitum (Jeff Renner)
  HSA, ad nauseum (John Wilkinson)
  Kick starting Big 10 ("Spies, James")
  Re: AHA-Nationals Judging question ("Brian Rezac")
  CAP-style adjunct mash for pumpkin ale? (zemo)
  Nottingham/Imperial/Oxygenation ("Philip J Wilcox")
  drifine (Regan Pallandi)


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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 15:03 PDT
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Its the new dance craze...

Hotfoot Brewing (Northern California Swing)

Well, it was an awfully long brew day, that's about my only excuse. I had 
decided to make a Vienna instead of another Oktoberfest (remember the worm 
beer). I built up a grain bill of 90% vienna, 5% crystal and 5% wheat. Did a 
50-50 split mash with first half resting at 145F for 15 minutes and then up 
to 156F for 45 minutes and then a 20 minute boil (decoction and what an 
aroma!!!). Then the rest of the mash came in at 145F with an immediate boost 
to 152F and rest for an hour. I'm hoping for an intensely malty flavor with 
a dry finish, we'll see in a few weeks.

Anyhow after nearly 5 hours of mashing, lautering and boiling, I was down to 
the last 15 minutes when I toss in my immersion chiller for sanitation. It 
was in there for about 10 minutes and of course the water in the tubing from 
the last time I used it boiled and started spitting out of the connectors 
(didn't have the hose on it yet). Now, I've seen this behavior before but I 
have never been spit on by my chiller before. This time I was in the wrong 
place at the wrong split second an sppppttttoooiii. I now have a nice second 
degree burn on my left ankle about 3 inches long and an inch wide. I 
immediately ran the cold water over it and pulled the sock and shoe off. 
Along with several layers of well cooked skin.

Moral of the story - aim the outlets of your immersion chiller away from 
traffic lanes or hook the hoses on it before it goes into the boil or drain 
it real good after you use it. Not to worry, I'm not looking for any 
sympathy (well, a little bit is ok, send me some of your best homebrews to 
make me feel better). The doc gave me some antibiotic ointment and I got a 
tetanus booster last year. Just have to stay out of the pool for a couple of 
weeks.

Charley (copyrighting a new style of swing) in N.Cal



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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:57:56 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: pitching rate

Further response to a letter I revieved from George DePiro:

>  Underpitching and other abuse of yeast.  This causes such a broad array of
> problems that it is truly staggering.  I have said much about this, 
> and will say more,
> mark my words...

I marked his words (with one of these (>) things).

I might have another suggestion (Since pitching rate is becoming quite a
popular drum).

1:Next time you brew, split your wort into three equal portions.

2:  Create a starter that is about twice of what you consider an
appropriate size for the original (unsplit) volume.It would be
convenient if this starter was easily divisable by 7 (like 700ml or
1400ml).

3:Pour 1/7th into one, 2/7ths into the next, and 4/7ths into the third.
Now you've got one ferment with a presumed 1/2 "good" pitching rate, one
that should be right, and one that is double pitched.

4:Have some knowledgable tasters taste these "blind" when completed
(triangle test is quite nice for this, two beers at time, (hint) I'd
start with min. and max.).

Now IF and WHEN you find that there IS a perceivable difference, and
particularly IF there is some consensus about what defines this
difference, it would be a very good place to THEN begin to theorise
about what causes these differences (drawing upon the extant reasearch
in the brewing industry).

I'm assuming that the beer you brew yourself does not taste much like
"Coors", and it would be very interesting to know what makes positive
and negative taste effects in more complex beers (anything that
resembled a pronounced flavour in a can of Coors, would stand out like
canine testicles, and throw it immediately out of its precarious
balance.... that doesn't imply that that same flavour might not be
"simply wonderfull" in a more complex setting).

This proposed test has one obvious confounder, and that is the increase
in concentration of fermentation products from the "starter" introduced
with increased pitching rates, but since that is an inherent confounder
in proposed increased pitching rates as well, I'd "let it slide" for the
moment.

Without having tested the relevance of this in a homebrew setting first,
despite the best of intentions,  I am afraid you will only be
contributing to the exponential growth, of a mountain of information
that is being regurgitated for homebrewers from the brewing industry,
without first seeing if it is  germaine (or indeed, perhaps even
counter-productive).

Dr. Pivo

PS  I promise I'll stop posting and teasing here.  I'm about to get onto
that plane to Ireland, and I always get a bit wound-up before heading on
one of these tasting sprees, and positively bubble over (a gusher?) with
the shear joy of all the wonderful, varied products of brewing that have
been my pleasure to embibe... no matter how badly they "break the rules"
during their production).


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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:38:20 -0500
From: "charles beaver" <cbeav at netnitco.net>
Subject: oxygenation

Can anyone give me guidelines for using a diffuser stone and an O2 tank for
aeration?



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:43:11 -0500
From: "charles beaver" <cbeav at netnitco.net>
Subject: oxygenation

Can anyone give me guidelines for the length of time needed to aerate a 5
gal batch using a diffuser stone and and O2 tank?




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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:24:04 -0700
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: Pracitical Matters

Steve Alexander mentioned various details which are not worth me dealing
with since I'm buried in books and articles now.  So I'll just concede
defeat for now. :-)

>Jim says that he prefers to *not* have yeast growth - but one of his reasons
>(fast fermentation) defies his own quote about 33X slower attenuation.  

The point I was failing to make is that one wants to pitch the right amount
of yeast with the right amount of oxygen.  Thus one gets the right amount
of growth to consume the sugar and ferment quickly without excess growth.
One needs to achieve a balance.  I did not say I had every achieved this
goal.  This whole discussion is beginning to remind me of the folks from
GSE systems who were in my class at Siebels.  "Let's just put a PLC on
everything and the brewery has an on/off switch."  Get a bunch of C.E.s to
derive a bunch of equations and we'll make "beer".  The Ramirez articles in
JIB and B and B read this way.  "maximum alcohol in minimum time",
"industrial brewing".  And they used 16 P wort.  My point is that this is
research that is geared, as is most beer research. towards making light
lager in 900 barrel batches 24 hours a day 7 days a week.  Granted some of
their stuff is valid but Ramirez, based on his  CV is not a brewing
scientist.  he is into modeling and process control.

As far as oxygen and beer Kirsop has done a bunch of stuff and found a
variation in yeast O2 requirements from 4 to 40 mg/L.  But he has also
reported that by giving the 40 mg/L requiring yeast smaller amounts over
time, that one can get equal performance and growth to that of the 4 mg/L
strain given a single shot.  so single blast of oxygen may or may not be
the best thing depending on the yeast strain.  From his perspective most
all fermentation problems arise from inadequate oxygen levels and thus
problems with the yeast levels of UFAs and sterols and other oxygen
requiring processes.

So make all malt starters.  Don't use an extract like Alexander that had
low FAN.  Step things up until you have 2 or more liters.  cover the flask
with foil or a sterile cotton plug not an air lock.  If you don't have a
stirrer, then swirl the flask a few times a day.  In the morning. when you
get home and when you go to bed.  This helps promote air exchange and
healthy yeast.  let the starter ferment out and let the yeast flocculate.
Don't add the supernatant to your beer.  It would be great to adapt our
yeast and re pitch like the big guys.  But we don't brew 24/7.  If I want I
can make a starter with various supplements and get 1e9 cells/ml, but this
is expensive when air is essentially free.  Just some simple advice.  But
if you want to use tween 80, ergesterol, yeast extract and YNB then be my
guest. :-)

Jim Liddil


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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:23:41 -0600
From: Michael Lausin <soscc at cmn.net>
Subject: wort chiller

Geetings fellow homebrewers!

A while back there was a discussion about immersion chillers and
pre-chillers. I have a web page that shows the chiller set up that I use. I
recirculate the cooling water using a pump and a pre-chiller coil inside a
washtub. This technique could be helpful to my fellow brewers who live
where water is either expensive, in limited supply, or who are like me and
don't like to waste the water.

The site is at http://www.cmn.net/~rosqs/wort.html

Cheers!

- --------------------------------------------------------
Michael Lausin
Solutions Oriented Systems Computer Consulting
soscc at cmn dot net


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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:15:01 -0400
From: "Chuck Mryglot" <cmryglot at Progress.com>
Subject: Alt hopping schedule

In the latest issue of Zymurgy there is an article on Alt.  I was interested
in the hopping schedule.  Bittering hops as usual, flavoring hops added when
heat turned off, and then aroma hops added after wort has cooled to 180
degrees F.

This is a new twist to me.  Has anyone else used this schedule?  Is this
typical/unique for Alt?

Chuckm



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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:08:28 -0400
From: "Swintosky, Michael D." <Swintosk at timken.com>
Subject: Hops

I am looking for information on how one determines if hops are ready for
 harvest.  Also, what is the best way to dry/prepare hops for use or
 storage?  I only have two vines, but I'd be interested in using them if
 I could.   tia

Mike Swintosky
Dellroy, Ohio


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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:16:23 PDT
From: "Steve Blanchard" <steve_blanchard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Oven bottle sterilization

Rod Wellman commented on the use of his oven for bottle sterilization in 
HB #2803:

"I preheat the oven to 200 degrees before placing them inside.  Then I
leave them in NO longer than 15 minutes at 200 degrees.  I believe 180 
degrees is the point at which bacteria dies.  200 is plenty safe.  I 
have heard that higher temperatures and longer times in the oven my 
weaken the structure of the glass."  

His times would be inadequate if sterilization is the goal.  Hospital 
based standards for sterilization using dry-heat devices (like an oven) 
dictate sterilization times of 60-120 minutes at 320-375 degrees 
Fahrenheit.  Bacterial killing using dry heat requires higher temps and 
longer times than the use of traditional steam sterilization which use 
steam under pressure.  As far as his comment on weakening the glass 
structure, I would suspect that this would occur at much higher temps 
(over 400 degrees)and only after many cycles.

 Steve

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:30:02 -0400
From: "Frederick J. Wills" <Frederick_Wills at compuserve.com>
Subject: Broken Necks/Name that off flavor...

Oh wise and great collective,

You will recall that quite a while ago I asked whether any HBD'ers had 
ever
broken the neck off of their carboy when carrying via a carboy handle.  I

am pleased to report that all of the replies were either negative on 'boy

breakage or that the carboy had slipped out of the handle and that the 
neck
had not snapped off or been the cause of the reported mishap.  


*** All-New Conventional Wisdom to follow****

I believe that (with less than a 5% probability of error) we can say that

carboy necks do not break by carrying them with a carboy handle.  Case
closed. 


- ------------------

On a completely different topic, 


I have a story that may be worthy of consideration in light of the recent

HSA discussions.

In years gone by, when I was a partial boiling extract brewer, I made a 
few
batches of homebrew that came out less than stellar.  While they were
drinkable, there was a subdued stale background flavor that I did not 
find
in commercial beers and did not particularly care for.  


After some deliberation, I modified my previous process (which I had read

about in a certain "Complete" hombrewing book) by eliminating the pouring

of boiling hot concentrated wort through a hop-strainer into icy cold
make-up water in the fermenter.  Instead, I began to pre-chill my
concentrated boiled wort via an ice bath in the sink before doing "the 
big
dump" into the fermenter.  The mysterious off flavor problem was gone,
never to return again.

I theorized that the concentrated wort was being aerated during my
mishandling at high temperatures and have associated this flavor with 
HSA. 

Am I correct in this assumption or was there another mechanism at work?  
Is
it possible that this is the dreaded "THT" (That Homebrew Taste)?  


Certainly it is possible that the elimination of the flavor and change in

process are completely unrelated, but since I had several batches that 
were
positives and several more post modification that were negative (before
switching gears completely and going all-grain) there is a reasonably 
good
probability that these were cause and effect.  Forgive me if I don't
calculate a p-value for this data.  


So on to the theoretical question, what damage could be afflicted on
boiling hot wort by dumping it through a strainer into ice cold (well
aerated) water?


TIA,
Fred Wills
Londonderry, NH

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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:38:28 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: HSA ad infinitum

"Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se> wrote of HSA being

>an "on/off" phenomenon.

I posted my experience with HSA on HBD several (3?) years ago, I think.
I've had cardboard taste two times, both in 100%  Munich malt dunkles that
were mashed in a kettle in the oven (and decocted, perhaps, I don't have my
notes handy), then transferred to a "zapap" lauter tun.  (I now use a
RIMS).  They were fermented cold (9-10 C) and lagered at 0 C for 6-8 weeks.
I kegged the cold lagered beer and carbonated by shaking over a period of
perhaps an hour. Both beers tasted great during the first few weeks on tap
at 7-8 C, then suddenly went to wet cardboard.  I mean, overnight!  Time
was the only factor here as there was no light, agitation or temperature
change once the beer was kegged and carbonated, but I know that
transferring the mash to the lauter tun (and back and forth for decocting
if I did decoct), in spite of my care, probably exposed it to oxidation.
Shaking for carbonation may have further stressed it.

I recall from reading that the melanoidins from dark malts can be
protective against oxidation if the wort is delivered to the fermenter in a
reduced state, but if it is oxidized, then the melanoidins can actually be
a storehouse for future oxidizing problems.  (I know it has to do with
electron donors and receptors, but I struggled with redox 30+ years in
inorganic and I'm too lazy to go look it up now,  so please excuse my
fuzziness).

In my experience, this certainly was an "on/off pnenomenon."  Or, perhaps,
"off/on.  It never went back the other way, but maybe if I had kept the
beers, they would have reverted.  As it was, they were undrinkable.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 10:27:23 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: HSA, ad nauseum

I was happy to read of Dr. Pivo's experiment with HSA.
My last batch of beer I forgot to turn on the water to my CF chiller and
collected, with lots of splashing, five gallons of 170F wort.  When I noticed
what I was doing I turned off the drain, siphoned the hot wort back into the
kettle, turned on the water to the CF chiller, and started collecting cooled
wort.  Perhaps my beer will be O.K.
I guess I can cancel my trip to Houston to climb to the top of the San Jacinto
Monument and do a swan dive off of it.  Life can continue, such as it is.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:41:39 -0400
From: "Spies, James" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Kick starting Big 10

All -

I have a question regarding an apparent stuck fement with a barleywine
made from Jethro's Big 10/20 recipie.

Initially, I pitched ~4.5 gallons of BW wort (OG 1.116) onto a sizable
Edme ale yeast cake from a previous batch of 1.041 American amber ale.
It fermented furiously for about a week (interim SG 1.058), and finally
trickled to a halt about a month later at 1.050, where it stopped dead.
I racked off of the yeast into a sanitized carboy, and pitched 3 packets
of rehydrated champagne yeast.  Nothing has happened at all.  Obviously
I don't want to oxygenate the partially finished beer, but there is
absolutely no action from the airlock, and the surface of the beer is
totally clear of foam.  The SG remains at 1.050.  I took a second
hydrometer reading to make sure I didn't screw it up, and it was
identical (no air bubbles to float it up).  What gives?  My temperature
is about 74 in the basement.  Is this too hot for the yeast to work?  I
don't have refrigeration capacity, so I have to do the best I can with
water and t-shirts.  The beer shows no signs of infection (thank god),
so I'm just letting it sit for now and scratching my head.  Any
suggestions???

BTW, the taste seems to be right on for a BW.  Sweet, but not cloying,
and very hoppy.  Could I have a screwy hydrometer?  (No problems in the
past)  Could this be a possible case for the use of Clin*test?  Heaven
forbid, another mini thread to restart the Al v. Dave Cage Match of
Death . . .

;-)

As always, TIA

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:35:12 -0600
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Re: AHA-Nationals Judging question

Christopher Peterson wrote:
> A friend of mine and I have a question regarding beer judging
(scoring) at
> the AHA nationals.  We both entered a beer in the same category.
Both made
> it into the finals. In both evaluations, it was unclear how the
final score
> given to the beer was obtained.
> Both at the first round and second rounds, the two scores I received
were
> averaged to give a final score (for example but not actual scores;
35 + 37
> = 36 final average score). On my friends sheet, he received two
scores, yet
> the final evaluation score was not the average of the first two (for
example
> 32 and 31 final score 38). How do they come up with these numbers?
Do the
> judges reevaluate beers after trying the whole category? I know the
finals
> used a two tier system to judge the beers. Do the judges re-score
beers
> that score the highest? Just wondering. Any info would be
appreciated. As
> always, private emails welcome.

Chris,

You're not alone.  The AHA gets many inquiries about the judging and
scoring system.  And usually the answer lies in just understanding the
process.  Now, I'm much better at explaining this verbally than in
written form, but here goes.

First of all, let me point out that the score on the cover sheet is
the "Final Assigned Score".  The judges do not have to average the
other scores to come up with this score.  Rather it is their final
decision, after individual evaluation and then group discussion, on
what score they are assigning that entry.

Here is a brief description of the organization of a typical
competition, to help you understand a little better.  All the beers
that are entered in a particular beer style category are divided into
flights.  In the 2nd Round of the Nationals, there are usually 2 or 3
flights but in the 1st Round, I've seen as many as 5 flights in the
same category.  Each flight is judged by a different set of judges who
score the entries and pass on up to 3 beers for the "Best of Category"
judging (sometimes called "Mini BOS").

In the "Best of Category" judging, the judges disregard the previous
scores and, basically, just choose the top three entries.  (Sometimes
less than three.)  Often these judges will go back to the cover sheets
and re-assign a new score so that the winning entries have higher
scores than the other entries.  Sometimes, they'll also put the scores
in order so the first place beer has the higher score, second place
the next highest, etc..

Now, admittedly, after evaluating a few beers, the judges' math skills
can suffer.  Usually, the steward is double-checking the math.  But
sometimes, mistakes do happen.  Please contact me, if you would like
to discuss the specific details of your entries.

Good Luck with your brewing.  I hope that you found the judges
comments useful for your future brewing efforts.

Brian Rezac
Membership Development Director
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO  80302
303 447-0816, ext. 121
brian at aob.org        http://beertown.org



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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:28:12 -0500
From: zemo <zemo at ameritech.net>
Subject: CAP-style adjunct mash for pumpkin ale?

I'm growing baking-type pumpkins out back of the brewery
(read: S.O.'s house) and I'd like some input on tried and
true methods of making pumpkin ale. Many recipes call for
baking the deseeded, halved 'kins sprinkled with pie spice
for an hour  at  350F, and then adding to the mash. More pie
spice is then added near the end (15 mins?) of the boil.
Some posts to the B.B.B. say why use 'kins at all, you only
need the pie spice. This may be true, but I love pumpkin
pie and I want to brew an ale that is pumpkin-y. What if I
did a sort of adjunct mash ala CAP corn/6-row, ie, bake the
kin's as above and then mash-in with some good ole 6-row?
Hold at 152-4F for an hour and then add that to the pale/
crystal mash in the cooler. Am I wasting my time? Mr. Renner?
BTW - has anyone seen pumpkins yet? My vines are spreading
around the yard, lots of flowers, but no fruit.

TIA

Steve Holat - Pumpkinhead
Underhaus Brewery
Batavia, IL  


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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:56:10 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox"<pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Nottingham/Imperial/Oxygenation





From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 08/25/98 04:56 PM

Tidmarsh,

Very unusual behavior from this yeast. Do you still have the packets? They
should have a serial
number on them that you can track to a packing date through Llamand. My
guess is that the packets
were old and abused. On Sunday I brewed a "Christmas Closet Cleaned-Out
Imperial Stout" it had a
little of everything:
12 gallons starting,
11 kinds of malt,
10 gals at knock out,
9-ty IBUs,
8 dinner while chilling,
7 grams of gypsum ,
6 different extracts,
5 specialty grains,
4 kinds of hops in
3 additions
2 carboys filled and
1 oz of Dry Nottingham (in each carboy)

Yes that's 1 ounce, maybe a little more. In a previous brew session I had
arranged to get yeast from
a brewpub, When I got there they had just finished filtering and had dumped
 all their yeast.
Oops. So they gave me a packet of their yeast. A packet. A 500 mg packet. I
 have lots of Nottingham now.
So I too have been following the yeast cell count thing closely also. (Nice
 work Mort) Since this was a
really big brew I went with 1 oz plus a shake. Previous to pitching my O2
ran out on the first carboy.
So I decided to turn that aspect into an experiment by not further aerating
 the other. I pitched at 11pm
and by 7 am. both had 1 inch of krausening. By 7 am the next day one of
them had climbed out the top of
the 6.5 gal carboy. The other only made it up to the neck on one side of
the carboy but not the other!?!
This is more or less what I had expected with a beer with a OG of 1.082.

However, being the tired schmuck that I was, I went to be without marking
witch one got oxygenated.
That said, After careful thinking I am about 85% certain that the one that
climbed out was the
UNoxygenated one! Any conspiracy theorists want to put a spin on why?

Now, back to the cause of this experiment. O2 running out. I was annoyed at
 big brew that My rinky
dink orange hardware store replacement tank ran out before everyone got the
 recommended 2
20 sec blasts of O2. I was further annoyed by having to replace the $9
replacement bottle so soon.
So on this last bottle I was very careful. I only put the regulator on when
 I was using it. I marked
how many carboys I oxygenated on the tank. Well I only got 4!!!!!  What is
the deal here? My first
tank, the original "Oxygenator"tm got probably 12 or more! At big brew
alone there were 5 (died on
the last one) Plus previous uses. How are other people using there oxygen?
Am I Over-oxygenating?
My procedure is to boil that darn SS sintered stone for 10 min, soak the
hose in idophor from
the carboy, assemble hands free. Drop the stone to the bottom and turn up
the regulator all the way
for 20 sec. IF possible. Some of the time It would be foaming out by then
so I'd cut it off early. I'd then
cover the neck with foil and clean up for a few minutes before repeating
the procedure.

Anyone see any problems?

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer




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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:16:44 +1000
From: Regan Pallandi <esb at wr.com.au>
Subject: drifine


I recently was given a bag of something called "Drifine" dry instant
finings manufactured by James Vickers of the UK. There is no other
information on the pack as to what it is, or how much to use. Does anyone
know what this stuff is?

cheers, Regan in Sydney


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