---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Conditioning cider/mead ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  Microwave sterilization? ("Gregg Soh")
  Bicarb Calc (AJ)
  Bottle Conditioning Mead/Cider ("Michael O. Hanson")
  Re: Pitching Rates (Paul Ward)
  FAN levels in extracts (Mark Swenson)
  Thanx (Timothy Skowronek)
  Re: Re. Alt hopping schedule (Spencer W Thomas)
  Anchor (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Reinventing the wheel ("Darren Gaylor")
  Microwave bottle sterilization (John Baxter Biggins)
  Three or So Beers (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Absences? (Paul Ward)
  Nottingham Bulk Source/Anchor Hops/Recycle Hints? ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  homebrewing presentation... (Lou.Heavner)
  Re: Visit to Chicago ("Roger Deschner  ")
  Thank You (OGP-Tempe)" <vjm at ogpnet.com>
  "Old British Beers..." (Badger Roullett)
  santiam (Andy Walsh)


Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the end of your day as
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:51:07 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Re: Conditioning cider/mead

Andrew Krein asks in HBD 2809:

>I'm a relative newcomer to home brewing and I have a question for the 
>learned contributors to this digest.  I found an interesting recipe for 
>what was called Apple Pie Mead that I plan on making for the fall. 
>The recipe calls for 2 gallons of fresh apple cider and 12 lbs of 
>honey.  

It's not clear to me whether this is for 2 to 3 gallons of very sweet 
cider mead (cyser) or 5 gallons.  It seems more likely this is a recipe 
for 5 gallons of moderately sweet to dry cyser.  How sweet will mostly 
depend on the yeast used.  Remember that a large part of our perception of 
fruit flavor is associated with fruit sweetness: a completely dry beverage 
doesn't taste as fruity to most.  My experience is also that it is 
unlikely your cyser could be ready for this fall.  I'd plan for next fall, 
or even 2001.

>I'd like to make a sparkling beverage, but at the end of the 
>recipe it only stated to "condition if you dare". 

 A mead ferment will often stick, due to under pitching, high alcohol 
level, the usual litany of low nutrition/oxygenation, and high acidity 
during ferment due to low buffering power of honey as compared to malt 
wort or fruit must.  If mead is bottled when stuck, fermentation may 
restart, causing bottle bombs.

>This seems to imply that making this sparkling would generate a large 
>amount of pressure in the bottle.  

If you ferment *to completion* then bottle condition, you will not get 
bottle bombs.

>How much corn sugar should be used to bottle condition 
>and what type of bottles would be best?  I'd like to use standard beer  
>bottles and cap as I would any other beer I've made.  Would champagne 
>bottles and champagne caps with wire hoods be required.  Could 
>beer-cappable champagne bottles be used?  

The standard amount of dextrose will work fine.  I like to use slightly 
more to get the higher carbonation typical of sparkling wine.   Standard 
beer bottles are okay but so are recappable American "champagne" bottles.  
They are also sturdier than beer bottles.  European sparkling wine bottles 
would be fine if you could get the larger crown caps.  You can also cork 
and wire if you want.

>I'd appreciate any  information.

I think you'll find that standard "champagne" yeast, clean fermenting 
white wine yeast or dry mead yeast will work fine for completing your 
ferment.  Use yeast nutrient and/or boil some dry yeast or nutritional 
yeast powder with the must, oxygenate or aerate well and use a large 
starter or two packs of rehydrated dry yeast.  

Use of Wyeast "sweet mead" yeast or ale yeast is little more fussy, but 
may leave a sweeter end product due to fermentation stopping at moderate 
alcohol levels.  It is then nearly impossible to bottle condition without 
pitching a more alcohol tolerant yeast, which could make bottle bombs.  A 
sparkling sweet mead needs to be chilled and fined,  pasteurized or 
preserved with sorbate, force carbonated and counter-pressure bottled to 
be bottled safely.  

Wassail!

 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington

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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:16:47 PDT
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: Microwave sterilization?

In HBD #2809 Frank says:

>Question:  If using a microwave oven to sterilize bottles is it the 
>heat or the micro wave that are actually due the sterilization?
>
>I have in the past use the microwave to sterilize my utensils for my
>making wine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you NOT supposed to use the 
microwave for anything that has no liquids. I was told that microwaves 
aren't supposed to be used under no-load conditions, bottles included. 
Any microwave experts? Unless otherwise, I don't think you should be 
putting bottles in the micrwave, well at least not dry ones.

Regards,
Gregg Soh



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 07:34:56 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Bicarb Calc

For Nathan Kanous: Bicarbonate is easily calculated from alkalinity
provided that the pH is less than 8.7 or so. Simply divide the
alkalinity by 50 ( this assumes that it is in units of "ppm as CaCO3")
and then multiply by 61. Example: Water with pH 7 and reported
alkalinity of 80 has a bicarbonate content of 61*80/50 = 87.6 mg/L



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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 07:01:19 -0700
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
Subject: Bottle Conditioning Mead/Cider

I'm not sure what is meant by "condition if you dare."  I've bottle
conditioned mead and fermented apple cider with very enjoyable results.  I
tend to "break the rules" if I think I'll enjoy the end result.  

I haven't seen the recipe so I can't say whether you would be creating a
lot of pressure and risking exploding bottles if you condition this mead.
If fermentation ends by the time you bottle, you should not be creating any
more pressure than the bottles can handle.  From what you have written, it
sounds like a good one.  However, I can give you some advice about your
other questions.  You can condition mead like beer (use  to  c. corn
sugar added at bottling if fermentation has stopped for five gallons).
Regular beer bottles work well.  You can use American sparkling wine
bottles and cap them with beer caps or Champaign bottles with Champaign
corks and hoods.

I hope this helps,


Mike Hanson




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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:47:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Re: Pitching Rates

I was just reading HBD #2808, when I saw the following proposed
experiment from Dr. Pivo:

>1:Next time you brew, split your wort into three equal portions.

>2:  Create a starter that is about twice of what you consider an
>appropriate size for the original (unsplit) volume.It would be
>convenient if this starter was easily divisable by 7 (like 700ml
>or 1400ml).

>3:Pour 1/7th into one, 2/7ths into the next, and 4/7ths into the
>third. Now you've got one ferment with a presumed 1/2 "good"
>pitching rate, one that should be right, and one that is double
>pitched.


I'm not sure this proposal would meet the objective.  Let's say (only
for the sake of easy numbers to work with) that you brew a 6 gallon
batch.  Let's further assume that an ideal yeast count for a 6 gallon
batch is 3,500,000 cells.  The proposal above would require
preparation of a starter with 7,000,000 yeast cells.

Splitting the wort into 3 equal portions would make 3 each 2 gallon
batches (batch A, batch B, and batch C).

Batch A would get 1/7 the total starter or 1,000,000 cells.

Batch B would get 2/7 the total starter or 2,000.000 cells.

Batch C would get 4/7 the total starter or 4,000,000 cells.

Since a 6 gallon batch only requires 3,500,000 cells for an 'ideal'
starter (or 583,333.3 cells per gallon) then it follows that:

Batch A is underpitched by 14% (1,000,000 / 1,166,666.6)

Batch B is overpitched by 71%  (2,000,000 / 1,166,666.6)

Batch C is overpitched by 342% (4,000,000 / 1,166,666.6)


Or is my math flawed (wouldn't surprise me).

I'm sure the results would still be interesting, just not the same
ratios as proposed.

Is this nit picking?

Paul in Vermont
Paulw at doc.state.vt.us

- -- 
According to government height/weight charts,
I'm seven and a half feet tall.


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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:11:20 -0400
From: Mark Swenson <swenson at aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: FAN levels in extracts

>Phil Wilcox says

snip

>So maybe its a
>nutrient thing. Not enough FAN and all that...Alexanders is known for that
>but not M&F.

This is a small snip from a larger post and this comment was not the main
point he was addressing.  Nonetheless, it caught my attention.  So here
goes:

As far as I know, Alexanders is the only extract manufacturer that has made
available the FAN levels of its extracts.  These are somewhat lower than is
considered best, but at least we know what they are.  From my point of
view, Alexanders should be commended for making this information available.
It is not clear to me that other extracts are superior in this regard.
Does anyone know what the reported FAN levels of other extracts are?

TIA

Mark Swenson
Key Biscayne, FL
Miami Area Society of Homebrewers




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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:33:54 -0500
From: Timothy Skowronek <cosmo at indy.net>
Subject: Thanx

Thanx for all the responses on the stuck ferment of my first batch.  I'm
starting an IPA this weekend.  I was also interested in a cider recipe I
saw, but have a question:  all the recipes I see say to put 4 gal fresh
cider in fermenter, dissolve additives in 1 gal, add to the fermenter
and pitch yeast.  They give no temperature for fermenting, and it seems
fresh cider would be as open to infection as wort unless it was
pasteurized.  Any comments?

Cosmo




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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:44:47 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Re. Alt hopping schedule 

>>>>> "Dean" == Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net> writes:

    Dean> I was under the impression that an alt should not have not
    Dean> have hop aroma but that some hop flavor was okay.

Well, as it happens, I just bought the Altbier book (Brewers
Publications, 1998).  The author (Horst Dornbusch) grew up in
Dusseldorf, and talked and worked with several brewers in Dusseldorf
while he was working on the book, so I assume that he's probably got
it right.

He says (p. 46 -- emphasis mine):

	Most German alt brewers use two kettle additions of
	hops. ... the second occurs toward the middle or end of the
	boil (for flavor). ... Some use ... a second hops variety for
	*beer aroma* during a *third addition* as the wort cools off,
	usually in the whirlpool.  ... Only a few ... dry hop their
	wort ... to accentuate aroma.

So, it would appear that hop aroma is at least acceptable in the Alt
style, regardless of what the AHA style guidelines may say.  (In fact,
they don't explicitly mention aroma, but say "Hop character may be
evident in the flavor." which might imply no aroma.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 07:48:54 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Anchor

"Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net> writes about Liberty Ale:

> I would suspect that Anchor uses hop pellets for economy reasons as do
> most micro's, but maybe not. 

Anchor's hop room has contained only whole hops the several times I've
had the pleasure to smell^H^H^H^H^Hsee it.  

BTW, anyone who is drinking Anchor products outside of San Francisco, or
more specificially, more than a few weeks old (check the date code on
each bottle*) and is trying to duplicate that taste should make sure his
or her procedure includes lots of HSA.  Anchor uses a grant which
encourages lots of HSA, and the fall off in taste quality is incredible.
Everyone reading this should make sure to take the Anchor tour which is
free and includes a couple hours of all-you-can-drink day-old Anchor
beers at the end.  You will then see that their beers, when fresh, are
truely some of the best in the world.

BTW2, have recently had Anchor's new Small Beer for the second time.  I
believe this is another Anchor first--microbrewed beer made from the
second runnings of the mash (stick that in your pipe and smoke it
Kirin).  It is made from the second runnings of their Old Foghorn
(barleywine--another Anchor first) mash.  There is little malt character
and it is very dry and even a little astringent.  Odly they have chosen
to bitter it fairly highly, at least 35 by my estimate.  Hops are fairly
assertive in flavor as well and seem to be N. Brewer just like the
Steam.  The yeast also seems to be the steam yeast judging by the slight
phenolic note that is present.

* How to read the Anchor date code:
First digit: last digit of the year
Second digit: the first previously unused letter of the name of the
month, i.e. J=jan, F=Feb, M=March, A=Apr, Y=May because M and A are
already used.
Third digit: The day, A-Z=1-26, 7=27, 8=28, 9=29, 3=30 (oh looks like
zero), 1=31
I currently would not buy this beer: 8U7--June 27 of this year.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:11:48 -0700
From: "Darren Gaylor" <dwgaylor at pacifier.com>
Subject: Reinventing the wheel

I've got to agree with George on yeast pitching.  (Going out on a limb,
aren't I?)  I probably always underpitch.  Near as I can tell, the only
times I've had a batch of beer turn out bad, the cause was "grossly"
underpitching.

Most recent time was when I was splitting my gallon starter amongst three
carboys.  Two turned out perfect (by my standards), the other failed to
ferment normally (long lag time, slow ferment) and could best be described a
yucky.  (These were all the same wort to begin with.)  I would have to say
that my starter was not a homogenius mixture, even though I shook it up real
good prior to pitching.

In addition to the small army of brewing scientist on George's side of the
fence, add one small-time, somewhat experienced, avid amateur homebrewer.

Darren Gaylor
Vancouve, WA



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Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:12:28 -0700
From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at mail.med.cornell.edu>
Subject: Microwave bottle sterilization

Microwave sterilization is a double edged sword:

!!! Science alert !!!  Microwave energy produces a higher rotation in
liquid and polar compounds (like water).  This higher rotation energy is
heat & is why water gets hot and solid, non-polar things like plastic
and styrofoam don't.  Microbes should not withstand such inhospitable
stimuli.

The problem I have, aside from the fact that non-Pyrex/Kimex glass won't
survive the heat-shock, is that if anyone had heated a slice of pizza or
a sandwich in a microwave, the heated water-turned-stream readily
recondenses and makes thing moist and soggy, which is self defeating if
your sterilizing certain things, as the moisture can attract new
microbes for re-infection.  And also the fact that microwaves invariably
have caked-on pasta sauce splattered all about the oven (or is this just
me?!?) Personally, I feel it brings more problems than solutions, which
is why I still use 70% Ethanol or dilute bleach solution -- quick,
simple, effective, & does not effect the integrity of what I'm
cleaning.  Unless of course you have access to a lab-grade autoclave,
which is by far the best & solves most of the problems conventional oven
sterilization have.

Just my $0.02

John Biggins
Cornell University Graduate School of Medical Sciences
Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center
NYC


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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:40:08 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Three or So Beers

See, even Microsoft can get burnt if it's not careful fooling around with
beer.    :>)))
                  
                  The Wall Street Journal reported
                  Thursday that Microsoft engineers
                  discussed in 1991 a plan to hide
                  software bugs in an early version of
                  Microsoft Windows to trip up competing
                  operating systems. The discussion came
                  after a competitor positioned itself to
                  upset the company's monopoly share of
                  the DOS operating system market. 
                     In a Sept. 30, 1991, message about
                  the plan that used the electronic mail
                  names of members of his team, David
                  Cole, head of Windows development,
                  told another executive that "aaronr had
                  some pretty wild ideas after three or so
                  beers -- earleh has some too." 
Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:41:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Absences?

We know that Dave Burley is on vacation.  Has anyone else felt the
lack of Al Korzonas presence during this time too?

Is there a connection?  Is this a Jeckyl/Hyde personality thing?

Hmmmm.....

Paul in Vermont
paulw at doc.state.vt.us

- -- 
According to government height/weight charts,
I'm seven and a half feet tall.


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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:46:31 -0700
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Nottingham Bulk Source/Anchor Hops/Recycle Hints?

There's been a lot of discussion lately about the virtues of Danstar
Nottingham dry yeast from Lallemand, and it sounds like a good
way to go for a number of reasons.

Philip J Wilcox at CMS related his good fortune in obtaining a 500
gram brick of the stuff and says that he now pitches approx. 1 oz
per batch.  This is on the order of what Louis attributes to Jethro
a recent BT article.  My questions:  How much does a brick of this
dry yeast cost and who can a homebrewer buy it from?   Mail
order would be fine.
***********************************************************************
Captain Marc sez:

> I would suspect that Anchor uses hop pellets for economy
> reasons as do most micro's, but maybe not.

My second-most favorite memory of the Anchor HB Club of the
Year Banquet this winter (top honors go to the lovely young
miss who kept bringing us pitchers of Old Foghorn) was those NFL
offensive lineman-sized bales of whole hops parked right out
in the hallway of the brewery.  Only a few people questioned
why I kept pressing my face to the bales, inhaling, and smiling,
but they quickly followed suit.
*************************************************************************
Lest my pal Charley think he has the market cornered on stupid
questions coming out of Northern California, here's another:

I have a keg of ginger ale (made from those Ozark concentrates)
that is awful.  Tastes something like a cross between Listerine
and PineSol.  My question is if anyone knows of a use for a
sugar/honey solution like this, or should I just pour it out?  I'm
thinking of something like plant fertilizer, ant bait, etc.

Note that I said stupid questions, not stories.  Hopefully it'll be a
long while before I do something that can top getting shot by my
own wort chiller.

Randy in Modesto



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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:42:47 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: homebrewing presentation...

     Greetings,

     I have been approached about giving a presentation on homebrewing to a
     local engineering section.  I could develop a presentation from
     scratch, but was wondering if somebody already has something they'd be
     willing to share.  If it were in MS Powerpoint, that would be
     outstanding.  I assume I will only have about 30-45 minutes, so
     actually making a batch would probably be unrealistic.  However, I
     could do a show and tell with some of my equipment.  And I'm sure I'll
     have samples of grain and hops and such to look, taste, smell, etc.  I
     don't have a date yet, but I expect it would be early next year.

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX


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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:53:03 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Visit to Chicago

Someplace, you will come across stacks of free beer-related newspapers.
Grab BARFLY, MIDWEST BEER NOTES, and CHICAGOLAND BREW NEWS.

>From the Drake, start at CLARK STREET ALE HOUSE, about six blocks away at
Clark St.  at  Chicago Ave. This beer bar is also a very-small-time contract
brewer, with some taps under their own name brewed by TWO BROTHERS out in
the 'burbs. Their two dozen or so draft micros are one of the best
selections around, and certainly the best near your hotel.

>From there, ride the CTA RED LINE trains up and down:

Go north to the North/Clybourn station, and walk two blocks up Clybourn
to GOOSE ISLAND BREWPUB, 1800 N. Clybourn. This is one of the city's
first brewpubs and still IMHO the best, if not one of the best in the
country. While walking back to the train, stop in at the inconspicuous
BLUEBIRD LOUNGE, on Clybourn, for 10 very well-selected micro taps in a
cool, funky 50's atmosphere.

Get back on the train and continue on up to Addison, to WEEGHMAN PARK
BREWERY, on Clark St just south of Wrigley Field. New brewpub, making
some great beer already, and with excellent food. It's easy to combine a
trip here with a Cubs game, but beware of the crowds - those of us who
like to properly enjoy the place go when the Cubs are on the road.

You'll need an inexpensive taxi ride to HOPCATS BREWPUB, at 2354 N
Clybourn. Very new, but the brewer, Greg Moehn, is a seasoned expert in
the Chicago brewpub scene. Already producing excellent beers.

Our favorite beer bar is not that far from here, at Armitage  at  Hoyne. THE
MAP ROOM features 25 carefully selected micro taps. Mark the date
SEPTEMBER 16 on your calendar (which is during your visit) to come here
and hang out with the "Beer Geeks" of the Chicago Beer Society, on our
monthly 3rd-Wednesday Social Night.

One of Chicago's original good beer bars is celebrating an anniversary in
September with lots of specials. QUENCHERS SALOON is at 2401 N. Western.
It's a friendly neighborhood place with 18 taps and an impressive bottle
list.

Head back into town for ROCK BOTTOM BREWERY, located upstairs from the
Grand Ave. subway station. Standard outlet for this chain cashes in on
its great location.

A nice beer bar near here is O'CALLAHANS, two blocks south on Hubbard St
near Dearborn St. Six good taps in addition to the usuals. Proximity to
Loop offices makes this a great people-watching place.

The world-famous BERGHOFF, 17 W Adams (at the Jackson station) in the
heart of The Loop, is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year. They
make their own beer at the HUBER-BERGHOFF BREWERY in Monroe Wisconsin,
which they own, which makes this kind of a brewpub. The Berghoff family
has owned a variety of breweries over the decades. Famous for German food
and old world atmosphere.

Take a trip to a suburban brewpub with a designated driver (i.e. on the
train!) The following suburban brewpubs are located near commuter train
stations. When you get to town, phone 312-836-7000 for schedules and
routes on ANY public transit. Also on the web at www.metrarail.com.

FLOSSMOOR STATION BREWERY - on the Metra Electric line in Flossmoor.
(This IS the old depot, so close you won't need an umbrella if it rains.)

PRAIRIE ROCK BREWERY - on the Milwaukee Dist. West line at Elgin
(Get off at the casino stop - at the north end of the parking lot)

MICKEY FINN'S BREWERY - On the Milwaukee Dist. North line at Libertyville
(About four blocks south of the RR sta.)

Note - the following three can all be done in one very full Saturday of
  train riding for a single $5 weekend train ticket. This "$5 train
  crawl" can only be done on a Saturday. Allow Noon to late evening.

WALTER PAYTON'S AMERICAS BREWPUB - on the Burlington Northern at Aurora
(In the old RR roundhouse adjacent to the RR sta. See Payton memorabilia)

TAYLOR BREWING CO. - on the Burlington Northern line at Naperville.
(Across the street from the RR sta.)

FOUNDER'S HILL BREWPUB - on the Burlington Northern at Downers Grove
(About three blocks south of the RR sta.)

Roger Deschner      University of Illinois at Chicago     rogerd at uic.edu
Aliases:             USUICZ3P at IBMMAIL            u52983 at uicvm.uic.edu
=================== President, Chicago Beer Society ====================

In-Reply-To:
Subject:     Re: Out of town visitor
> I just glanced over this request on HBD.
>
> +++++++++++++++
>
>
> Date:   Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:08:36 -0400
> From:   Alan Monaghan <AlanM at GardnerWeb.com>
> Subject:        Visit to Chicago
>
> I am going to be in Chicago for two weeks starting the day after labor
> for the big tool show. I am looking for recommendations on any Brew Pub
> visit (staying at the Drake downtown so not too far out please), home b
> supply stores, or home brewers in the area. Would love to have a full t
> weeks of Brew Pubs to visit. Also, any local beer or specialty beer fro
> that area would also be welcome.
> Thanks ever so much.
> vitam cerevisiae venturi saeculi omnia
> Alan G. Monaghan
> Gardner Publications, Inc.
> AlanM at Gardnerweb.com <mailto:AlanM at Gardnerweb.com>
>
> +++++++++++++++++
>
> Is there anyone who would be interested in entertaining this chap?
>
> Peter Novota
> PANovota at msn.com


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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 13:18:00 EDT
From: "Mitchell, Vincent (OGP-Tempe)" <vjm at ogpnet.com>
Subject: Thank You


I would like to say thank you to all that have responded to my questions 
about Amber Ale and funky after tastes!!  Everyone has been most helpful!!

Vince Mitchell
vjm at ogpnet.com


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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:44:56 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: "Old British Beers..."

I am seeking a copy of a book on historical brewing..

Its called "Old British Beers, and how to make them" by J Harrison.

any one know where i can get a copy of this book?

and can can anyone recomend other books that might contain pre-1700 brewing
recipies, and information?

*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger

Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html

In the SCA: 
Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn




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Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:32:31 -0700
From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at ventrassist.com>
Subject: santiam

This is a reply from Dr. Al Haunold on the lineage of Santiam...

"Santiam arose from a cross I made in 1988 on the German Tettnanger USDA
61021 which we had obtained in 1961 and which has been in our collection
ever since.  It is a true Tettnanger.

Since I did not have a tetraploid Tettnanger at the time and doubling
the chromosome number would have taken too long, I chose to use the
route  diploid x tetraploid crossing.

The tetraploid male I used arose from my earlier crossing program
involving Hallertauer mittelfrueh which had produced Mt. Hood, Liberty,
Crystal and Ultra  (all triploids-- the mother was a tetraploid
Hallertauer mittelfrueh).  That same cross also produced the tetraploid
mnale which I used for the cross on Tettnanger.

Santiam, from a diploid x  tetraploid cross is a true triploid
(chromosome number 2n = 30) with the following  genetic composition:

1/3 German Tettnanger,  1/3 Hallertauer mittelfrueh,  1/6 Cascade,  1/24
Brewer's Gold,  1/24 German aroma hop (perhaps related to Saazer),  1/48
English Early Green aroma hopps related to Goldings,  1/24 open
pollinated (unknown) ."

It's interesting that Cascade shows an appearance in reasonable
proportions. Dr. Haunold also seems to suggest that Cascade also
contributes to Mt Hood, Liberty, Crystal and Ultra. 

Andy.



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