---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Malt Minerals (Fred Scheer-Malt Montana)
  Grant's Scotch Ale help (Rick Wood)
  Name that grapefruit! ("Brian Dixon")
  Re:Oatmeal stout ("Brian Dixon")
  Apologies ("Erik Vanthilt")
  Centrifuges (Jeremy Bergsman)
  starters (Jeremy Bergsman)
  8lit centrifudge ("David Hill")
  centrifuges and big starters (Christopher W Kafer)
  more yeast & esters/other ("Steve Alexander")
  Moisture in grains ("Gregg A. Howard")
  Should yeast starters be decanted? (Randy Shreve)
  Broken chest freezer (warning: techno talk) (fridge)
  Chattanooga brews? (mwmccaw)
  Re: Chest freezer broken ("Welsch, John")
  Campden tablets (Nathan Kanous)
  post of the year? (David Kerr)
  Old brewing methods/American megas and high-gravity brewing (George_De_Piro)
  Pore size for filters or Poly-Clar ("H. Dowda")
  Duesseldorfer Sticke (Fred Waltman)
  Homebrewing Tip #74 (Marc.Arseneau)
  Monterey and Carmel Brewpubs (Scott Crable)
  grain container & fermenter for 10 gal batches too (Peter.Perez)
  measuring malt (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Alt, Pils, Centrifuge (Mark E. Lubben)
  Hop Plants (Jeffrey Rose)
  A beer by any other name ... ("Larry Maxwell")
  Rauchbier ("Riedel, Dave")
  Ireks Malts ("Rob Jones")
  Bad taste in Pat's mouth... ("Rob Jones")


Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the end of your day as
every sentence deserves proper punctuation...

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 23:23:44 -0400
From: Fred Scheer-Malt Montana <maltmt at marsweb.com>
Subject: Malt Minerals

(Inserted in queue by Janitor Date: Friday, September 04, 1998 2:09 PM)

Subject: Malt Minerals 
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 23:23:44 -0400 
RESPONSE to AJ's posting 
 
Regarding to AJ's posting (which was a very good one, by the way), I would
like to ad the following:
 
The HUSK, and in particularly the outer layer, is rich in silica (SiO2).
Otherwise, Minerals are particularly concentrated in the empryo and the
aleurone layer.
During the steeping process, some minerals are leached into the steep
water. What that means is that the more intense the steeping process is,
the more or less minerals will be in the finished malt.
The requirements for minerals resembles that of each living cell, and the
supply of potassium, iron, calcium, magnesium, manganese, copper, and zink
is necessary.
These metal ions are needed for the activity of enzymes.
If one likes more reading on the subject, please look at page73 -81 0f
Charlie Papazians THE HOMEBREWERS COMPANION.
(By the way, he is not paying me for that advertisment...........)
 
Fred  Scheer, President & Maltster
MALT MONTANA, Inc
maltmt at marsweb.com
"PORTER'S PRAISE DEMANDS MY SONG, PORTER BLACK AND PORTER STRONG"  ANON.
CIRCA 1800 


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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 14:48:01 +1000
From: Rick Wood <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: Grant's Scotch Ale help

Hello All,
I have a friend who really likes Grant's Scotch Ale and we would like to
make a version that has most of it's characteristics.  Bert Grants web
page gives much information regarding the brew, and I think have no
serious problems with the grain bill, with one exception.  Also, I am
wondering about the hopping schedule as the web page specifies Cascades,
making this a Scottish-American brew.  I am trying to approach Bert's
interpretation rather than the authentic style.  An added complication
is that I have never tasted the brew.

My questions:
1.  is peat smoked malt appropriate in Grants Scotch Ale?
2.  does anyone have a feeling for hopping schedule, more for flavor and
aroma as bitterness is specified.  Is dry hopping appropriate?
3.  I am planning to use Wyeast Scottish (1728) if this is appropriate?

Thanks to all,
Rick Wood,
Brewing on Guam


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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:24:28 -0700
From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: Name that grapefruit!

Had a pint the other day that I'd say was less than acceptable (while
working on my 100 pint around the world, "get a free T-shirt and your name
on a plaque" effort at the local pub "Suds-n-Suds" in Corvallis, Oregon ...
do your laundry AND get your beer ... 100 styles to pick from!)

Anyway, this one was named after a NW fish and was from a popular brewery in
Northern California.  I figured it had to be good!  The beer would have been
quite good actually ... what you could taste of it beyond the grapefruit!
The friend that was with me said he could smell it in the aroma, and
definitely taste it quite clearly in the beer.  I couldn't smell it, but boy
could I taste it!  It tasted like someone had put grapefruit extract into
the beer ... yuk!  I suffered through about 75% of the pint before giving up
(normally, I can drink about anything).  I didn't bother complaining to the
bartender.  Probably should've mentioned it, but after a couple of pints, I
get lazier.

Anyone know, chemically speaking or from a
brewing/fermentation/conditioning/etc. perspective what the grapefruit
flavor was?  I found only one reference to a "grapefruit or citrusy flavor"
in my many brewing books, and it mentioned it coming from the hops, if
certain varieties were used.  This went way beyond that!  Pour yourself a
nice 1/4 glass of grapefruit juice, then fill the glass with some Sierra
Nevada Pale Ale (not the brewery with the problem), and drink it ... THAT's
what I'm talking about!  Any experts know what I'm talking about here?  OR
if you happen to be able to guess which beer and brewery I'm talking about,
is it really possible they did this on purpose?  Seems counterproductive to
me...

Thx,
Brian




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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:44:08 -0700
From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: Re:Oatmeal stout

>> >>I am contemplating making an oatmeal stout in the next few weeks.
>> >>As aveteran single step infusion masher I and wondering if it is
>> >> a*mandatory* that I include a protein rest.
>>
>> In a word, no.
>>
[snip]
>A recent BT (Oct 97, I think) article on adjuncts said that a rest was
>needed to avoid stuck sparges.  My only experience with oatmeal stout
>was a partial mash, which was a bear to sparge (but great to drink!),
>but that may have been due to incomplete conversion.
>
>        Any comments from the veteran "oatheads" amoung us?

I disagree with whatever BT article that said you needed a protein rest.
Maybe if you use cold-rolled oats, but not with flaked oats or any of the
Quaker oats (Quick or otherwise).  I've always gotten very good conversion
with oats, have used up to 25% oats (!!!) in the grain bill, and have never
had a haze problem (chill or otherwise).  One thing I do recommend though,
is to use either rice hulls or oat hulls during the sparge.  You can toss in
clean (more on that below) rice hulls any time, or if using oat hulls, toss
the clean (see below) oat hulls into the mash just prior to sparging.  I
forget the how many pounds of hulls per X pounds of grain to use, but this
is a noncritical thing.  Just buy a pound or two (it'll be a big bag) at the
local brewshop and take it home.  Use an amount that seems to look about
right and it'll be close enough.

Since I know there's not a heck of a lot of info on using hulls out there
(only brief mentions), I'll bore y'all with what I know.  Skip to the next
post now if you want to avoid this!

Notes on rice hulls:
 - At least in the Pacific NW, these are harder to find.
 - These are the best.  Low in tannins and oils, and generally not necessary
to clean.
 - If you choose to clean them, put them in a large-mesh grain bag and
'fluff' the bag around in a sink of cool water, squeeze dry, change out the
cool water for new water, then repeat.  When the water stays clean, you are
done.  Contrary to what some books may say, it is NOT necessary to dry the
hulls before you use them in your mash.
 - See note on floaty hulls below.

Notes on oat hulls:
 - At least in the Pacific NW, these are far easier to find (and cheap)
 - These are not the best!  But work just fine anyway if you take some minor
precautions.  The problem is that oat hulls tend to be fairly high in oils
and tannins, and tend to be fairly dirty.
 - Defeat the extraction of tannins and oils by limiting exposure of the
hulls to your mash to the sparge.  Mash like always, then mix in the cleaned
oat hulls right before you sparge.  Then sparge like always (see not on
floaty hulls).
 - Thoroughly clean oat hulls by placing them in a large-mesh grain bag, and
then 'fluff' them around in a sink full of cool water.  Squeeze them out,
change water in the sink, repeat the cleaning until the water stays pretty
clean (it'll never get perfect).  Contrary to what some books will say, it
is NOT necessary to dry the hulls before you use them.  Note that it may
take between 5 and 10 rinsing/cleanings to clean the hulls.  Either allow
enough time for it, or do it the night before brew day, or do it far in
advance and let them dry on a cookie or pizza sheet and save them.  Since
they don't go in the mash, I clean mine DURING the mash (during the long
sacc rest).

Note on floaty hulls:
 - Hulls float in the sparge!  In the 0" to 2" of sparge water above the
grain bed, the hulls will float!  You will not be able to see the top of the
grain, and that makes it hard to determine how much water remains on top of
the grain.  Use a dowel, spoon handle or whatever for a dipstick to see how
much water is on top of the grain.  Don't worry about disturbing the grain
bed.  Accidentally poking a hole or two into the top won't hurt a thing.

Have fun!
Brian




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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:48:59 -0700
From: "Erik Vanthilt" <vanthilt at inetworld.net>
Subject: Apologies

I responded to the hop question in #2815, and at the end I put
a BTW about the soda pumps I had previously asked about.

Well, I apologize, I was out of town sampling California's
fine beers and wines, and did not catch my e-mail. When I did,
I was expecting a "re:" on soda pumps, which I did not find.

I have the tendency to scan the headlines for interesting info, instead of
reading the whole digest.

Maybe it's just been too long since I brewed ;)

Thanks,

Erik Vanthilt

The Virtual Brewery
Http://www.inetworld.net/vanthilt/index.html




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Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:15:42 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Centrifuges

I always marvel at the household washing machine.  With a little
tweaking it seems like it could beat out your average RIMS, and at only
a few hundred $ for an 18 gallon system....  I would imagine that with
the proper insert (rigid foam?) and the water turned off, the spin cycle
of a washing machine would spin out yeast just fine.  I believe you can
obtain nice wide-mouthed Nalgene HDPE screw-top containers at camping
stores, which is what a real science lab would use (and they're
autoclavable).

Also I read a nice article a few years back, in Scientific American I
believe, for an eppendorf-style centrifuge made from an old blender and
a PVC pipe cap.  Not enough for a starter, but maybe one of the budding
scientists here could use one....
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:21:36 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: starters

OK, I think I actually have a starter-related question that hasn't been
asked or answered.  What about trub in the starter?  I usually obtain my
starters from wort I can't get out of the kettle cleanly.  I either wait
for the stuff to settle more or refilter this stuff, adjust to 1.040,
add a pinch of yeast nutrient and autoclave.  Even though one round of
hot and cold break removal has occured, the autoclaving produces a
prodigious amount of precipitate.  This stuff settles fast, so unless
you remove it before use you will be carrying it along with your yeast. 
Should it be removed or is the volume small enough that the lipids it
contains and their benefit to the yeast outweigh their potential flavor
problems (yum, oxidized lipids being added to my beer....)?
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:40:20 +1000
From: "David Hill" <davidh at melbpc.org.au>
Subject: 8lit centrifudge

 "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Asks re large volume centrifuge.

Top opening washing machine/spin-drier works well.

first cut a ring of styrofoam or similar material that will sit in the
bottom of the bowl

get 4 identical 2lit fruit juice containers, or PET bottles.

at 90 degree intervals cut a hole in the styro foam to take the base
of the fruit juice bottles

cut another ring of styrofoam with 4 smaller holes that will fit over
the necks of the bottles.

Fill the bottles with equal volume of fluid to spin down,

place large ring in bottom of machine bowl, then the bottles with the
other ring securing the necks so that they will not flop about.

turn machine on to spin cycle and instant centrifuge.

When I tried this I found it much easier to balance the machine with a
couple of wet towels evenly spread around the bottom of the bowl
first.

Can increase efficiency by canting the bottles at an angle with the
necks toward the centre.

It may not be lab quality but it works.

cheers

David Hill.



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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 01:58:15 -0500
From: Christopher W Kafer <ckafer at iastate.edu>
Subject: centrifuges and big starters

Forget about handling the volume, do you know how much rotors alone cost?!
Better be some darn valuable wort! 8-)

However, one could envision relatively easy modifications to an old washing
machine and a couple of 2L Coke bottles...


>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 04:31:45 -0400
>From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Yest/yeast/yeast&yeast

<huge snip>

>As for the centrifuge - most conventional lab models won't conveniently
handle
>anything like the 4-8L starter volumes under discussion.  If any of the
highly
>ingenious guys who used to write about novel brewing hardware are still
>around - consider this a challenge.



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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:31:42 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: more yeast & esters/other

Oh yeah - I forgot one other cause of esters in practical brewing -

When a commercial starter culture is created under high O2/growth conditions,
the first batch produced is mixed with other beer because reportedly of high
ester production !
- --

Good recent notes on microwave ovens recently.  An important note however is
that altho heating of water is the primary  means of heating food, that the
e-field will also jostle other polar molecules - some phenols among them, and
this has been used in research of phenolic reactions. Also microwaves ovens do
significantly denature proteins (which is reportedly why breads become chewy in
the microwave) - so attempts to heat mashes in the microwave may be ill-fated
(enzyme killer).

- --
George DePiro writes an excellent note about ancient brewing yeast & practice -
but  ...

> Why do you think lagers took the
> world by storm when the first pure yeast strains were isolated and
>  used in breweries?

Van Leewenhoek, with the first microscope spotted yeast in 1680. Pasteur ID'ed
yeast in breweries and learned a lot about their biology circa 1866.  It was
Emil Christian Hansen at Carlsberg who developed the first pure culture
techniques in 1881-1883. The "Lager revolution" in the US seems to have begun
~1850, three decades before Hansen's pure culture methods were developed and
even prior to Pasteur's work !!

I'm no historian - but for some reason people at that time were drawn to lagers
as opposed to ales or other drink.  Based on the on other historical changes
I've read about regarding alcoholic beverages I suspect that there was a
financial reason involved.  I am often dumbstruck at the impact that taxation,
transportation and urbanization vs agrarian needs (for examples) have had on
the course of modern alcoholic beverage development.

The huge immigration of German speakers to the US to places like Milwaukee,
Cincinnati and St.Louis - all were lager brewing hubs - is no small part of the
story.  The mirrors German migration to Mexico and other parts of the Americas
and lager development there.  From 1850 to 1920 no less than 25% of immigrants
to the US were German speaking.  The US prior to that period had many German
speaking immigrants and citizens, but of course this predated widespread lager
production. Also in non-coastal US there was a strong whiskey tradition among
English speakers and this was subjected to increasing taxation from the 1780's
thru the modern era - perhaps another part of the story.  Perhaps the US Civil
war permitted lagers to extend their reach as soldiers experienced beer from
other parts of the US.  All speculation on my part of course.

What were ales like in the mid 1800s in the US ?  Anyone know ?  Jeff ? Perhaps
the change was due to improved yeast handling techniques - tho' certainly not
pure culture techniques.  Perhaps flavor or transportability or clarity/color
in the more available clear glass mugs that were the deciding issues.  Perhaps
the advances in industrialization and transportation or even refrigeration that
made large scale commercial lager brewing possible.  I'd love to hear about it.

Steve Alexander




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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 04:31:44 -0400
From: "Gregg A. Howard" <ghow at compuserve.com>
Subject: Moisture in grains

In #2815 Chris Frey wrote:

<<Also, what are people doing who store a lot of different grains?>>

We don't have much humidity in Denver so I can't speak to
the moisture content problem, but 3 years ago 200+ lbs of malt
and rice stored in my basement in their shipping bags became
completely infested with Psocoptera, teeny-tiny little guys that
were happily galloping in and out of the bags through the
stitching holes.

I found a donut shop that bought all their icing ready-made
(most made it in-house) and was able to collect enough 3.5
and 4.25 gal. buckets (no 5 gal; icing is much denser than water)
with lids in a few weeks to store all my grain.  50 lb of 2-row is
just over ten gallons.

I removed the labels with "Goof-Off" adhesive solvent and
soaked the buckets in a 1 cup/5 gal solution of dish-washer
powder in a clean trash can for a couple of days and they
cleaned up nicely with no residual chocolate smell.  I removed
the bails (they're thinly plated and corrode easily) before soaking.
I removed the gaskets from the lids and ran both through the
dishwasher.

I sacrificed one ugly bucket with a 2" hole saw and got 40
or so plastic disks that I cut from edge to center to make
reusable tags that snap on the bails so I know which bucket
is what.

Collecting and cleaning the buckets was a hassle, but they make
for very tidy and convenient storage; 100+ lb in each stack and
unused buckets nest in little space.  Kinda like jumbo TupperWare.
I'm using malt that I bought right more than a year ago and it still
smells wonderfully clean and sweet when I open a bucket.

And, no, I never ran a protein rest on the infested grain.  But then
again, I've never been able to duplicate the magnificently rocky head
on that last batch of CAP I brewed from it...  Hmm...

Gregg A. Howard    -   Denver   -   

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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 07:09:49 -0400
From: Randy Shreve <rashreve at interpath.com>
Subject: Should yeast starters be decanted?

Somebody else asked this question a couple days ago, and if a response
was sent publicly and I missed it, I apologize for the wasted bandwidth.

What is the general consensus of the yeast gurus?  Does decanting a
starter make a significant difference in a homebrew batch....and what
about all that good yeast still in suspension?

Thanks!
Randy in North Carolina



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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:34:02 -0400
From: fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu
Subject: Broken chest freezer (warning: techno talk)

Greetings folks,

 In HBD# 2816, Ken Sullivan asked for help with 
troubleshooting his chest freezer that won't start after 
being left outside for awhile.

 Please understand that the following procedure assumes 
familiarity with electrical circuits could cause personal 
injury or property damage if electrical safety precautions 
aren't properly followed. Please get help from a qualified 
service technician if you don't understand the procedures 
I outline below, or are uncomfortable working on line-
voltage circuitry.

 I would suggest removing the Airstat from the freezer first, 
and try setting the original temperature controller to a 
lower setting. If this doesn't work, unplug the freezer, find 
the controller, disconnect one of the controller 
connections and verify that the contacts close. I'll assume 
you have access to a multimeter, since you mention 
having a background in electronics. Simply set the meter 
to a low resistance range and check for continuity 
between the controller terminals. 

 If the controller tests ok, reconnect it and turn your 
attention to the compressor. There will be a small relay 
and thermal element mounted either inside the compressor 
terminal cover, or in a nearby box. The relay may be one 
of several types, but is usually pushed onto two of the 
compressor terminals (S) and (R). Remove thie relay and 
shake it. You should hear the contacts rattle. If not, the 
relay is probably bad. If it rattles, check for continuity 
across the common (2) and normally closed (R) terminals 
with the relay held upright, and across the common (2) 
and normally open (S) terminals with the relay inverted.

 The thermal element is usually in the form of a round 
plastic device with two terminals. Inside is a small bimetal 
disk that deforms to open the circuit when hot. Check for 
continuity across the two terminals.

 If there is a capacitor in the compressor circuit, it may be 
used for either starting or running the compressor. These 
capacitors can retain dangerous voltages for long periods 
after the freezer is unplugged. Always short the terminals 
together with a screwdriver, or other metal tool with an 
insulated handle before handling the capacitor. Remove 
one lead from the capacitor, and one end of the bleeder 
resistor (if there is one). Set your multimeter on a low 
resistance range and read the resistance across the 
terminals. The meter should read neither a short, nor open 
circuit, and the resistance value should change as the 
capacitor begins to charge from the meter's battery. If the 
capacitor doesn't behave in the above manner, take it to a 
motor repair shop and have them test it.

 If all the above checks ok then the last thing to check is 
the compressor. The compressor terminals are usually 
labeled C (common), R (run), and S (start). With a 
multimeter set to a low resistance range, check resistance 
between the C and S terminals, C and R terminals, R and 
S terminals and from each terminal to the compressor 
case. You should read infinite resistance from any 
terminal to the compressor case. The resistance value 
between the C and S terminals should be lower than the 
value between the C and R terminals. The value between 
the R and S terminals should be higher still.

 This procedure should pinpoint most electrical problems 
in a common refrigeration system. However, there are 
many different combinations of components used in the 
various makes and models, and I chose a very common 
configuration in the above procedure. Please email me if 
your system differs significantly from this example

 . 
Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu


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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:03:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: mwmccaw at ix.netcom.com
Subject: Chattanooga brews?

I'll be spending a week in Chattanooga, TN soon.
Does anyone know of any good/great brewpubs within striking distance?
TIA,
Mike



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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 98 01:31:00 PDT
From: "Welsch, John" <A069067 at MDCPO102.HB.MDC.COM>
Subject: Re: Chest freezer broken


Ken Sullivan writes:

>I suspect the starter cap.  I bypassed the fridge >thermistor, no joy.
>Anybody out there have a few troubleshooting tips?
>I have a background in electronics but no experience >with fridges.

I had an old fridge that had been sitting and just wouldn't run.  The fix   
was simple, I got a "Hot Shot" from the local Johnstone Supply.  This   
thing replaces the start capacitor and overload on any compressor, just   
plugs to the existing flag terminals and away you go.  Should be able to   
find one at any refrigeration parts supply house.  Cost about $15.

John Welsch
Strand Brewers
Redondo Beach, CA



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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:43:15 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Campden tablets

AJ,
In your post about reducing chloramines with the use of Campden tablets,
you said:

>the water. Some of this will be oxidized to sulfate by the
>chlorine/chloramine and that which is not oxidized by chlorine or
>otherwise will be driven off in the boil. If all is oxidized to sulfate

Driven off in the boil?  Pre brewing boil, or after you've mashed?  I would
welcome the use of this, if I don't have to boil my water first.  It's just
extra time and resources to pre-boil my water.

What is the effect of having sulfer dioxide in my mash?  Any?

Just a thought.
nathan


Nathan L. Kanous II, Pharm.D., BCPS
Clinical Assistant Professor
School of Pharmacy
University of Wisconsin - Madison
Office Phone (608) 263-1779
Pager (608) 265-7000 #2246 (digital)


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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 10:48:50 -0400
From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: post of the year?

My vote is for AJ's Chloramine Neutralization post of 9/4.  
I'm brewing Monday (thanks to AlK for posting a *real* Altbier grain
bill - no more Crystal-laced Alt for this beer geek!) after an early AM
round of golf unencumbered by the charcoal filtration process.
But what's the best way for me to determine when fermentaion has
completed? ;)
Dave Kerr Needham, MA  "Be good and you will be lonely"  -  Mark Twain


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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:14:50 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Old brewing methods/American megas and high-gravity brewing

     Hi all,
     
     Paul writes, with regards to my comments about ancient brewing 
     techniques:
     
     "While the science of what George is saying may be true, I would like 
     to point out that the reality of modern home brewing is quite 
     different. I have done quite a few decoction mashes and have added 
     enormous amounts of boiled grains back to the main mash...I have never 
     experienced *phenolic, sour, etc.* flavors in any of my decocted 
     brews."
      
     Back to me:
     
     Perhaps I wasn't abundantly clear:  the phenolic and sour notes are 
     from the use of impure yeast cultures, not the mashing technique.  The 
     mashing technique is likely to provide a wort that is rich in dextrins 
     and starches that brewer's yeast cannot ferment.  These will support 
     the growth of wild microbes, but it is these wild bugs that cause the 
     phenolic, sour, etc. flavors, not the mashing technique itself.
     
     Paul then continues:
     
     "Just try to keep the additions of boiling water to a minimum 
     and be sure to let your mash rest until any released starch is 
     converted (which may take a while longer because some of the enzymes 
     may have been denatured)."
     
     Back to me:
     
     The best way to prevent localized heating when adding very hot liquids 
     to the main mash is to add the liquid slowly and stir constantly.  If 
     you are using boiling water infusions to raise the mash to a specific 
     temperature you don't really have a choice about how much to add.  A 
     specific volume of boiling water must be added to effect the 
     temperature increase, so you can't "keep it to a minimum."
     
     Paul then writes:
     
     "Unless you are adding massive amounts of boiling water (like doughing 
     in 10 pounds of grain with 3 gallons of boiling water) and then 
     letting the hot mash cool to your selected conversion temperature, 
     there is nothing to worry about. "
     
     Back to me:
     
     That *is* the procedure Badger outlined!  You add boiling water to the 
     grain in specific proportions that land the mash near saccharification 
     at the end of mash in.  Localized heating is likely to be quite high 
     in the procedure Badger outlined:  it is very difficult to stir dry 
     grain as water is added to it (Jim Busch wrote about trying this 
     once).
     
     The dry grain does not have the heat capacity of the watery main mash 
     that a modern decoction brewer is dealing with.  Adding boiling water 
     to the dry malt will cause a rapid temperature increase in the grain 
     and denature enzymes.
     
     If one is trying to duplicate ancient beer, I would encourage them to 
     follow a procedure like the one Badger outlined.  It is important that 
     you know what kind of results you can expect, which was the point of 
     my post.
     
     I hope that cleared up any confusion my original post may have caused.
     ------------------------------------
     Steve Alexander has written a couple of very informative posts as of 
     late.  I do have one minor criticism, though:  In a recent post he 
     wrote, in response to Jim L. wrt the Gee and Ramirez paper:
     
     "16P (1.065SG) is light lager ?  I haven't tried light lager in a 
     while - maybe I'm missing something ! Perhaps you are referring to 
     high gravity brewing - which  I do not believe is widely practiced in 
     this country."
     
     Actually, Miller, Coors and A-B all practice high-gravity brewing.  It 
     makes it even cheaper (um, I mean more profitable) for them to make 
     their beer.  I've always wondered what their beers taste like before 
     dilution.  Could be interesting.  Couldn't be less interesting...
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 12:18:47 -0400
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at scsn.net>
Subject: Pore size for filters or Poly-Clar

Would some one with actual experience comment of a pose size for yeast
removal from finished beer.  Need to clarify some quickly.

Comments on the correct (successful) use of Poly-Clar would be appreciated.  

No, I do not usually filter or even fine any of my beers...special case

Thanks a tun...





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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:29:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: Duesseldorfer Sticke


All this talk of altbiers has whetted my thirst. I called zum Uerige 
and their sticke is supposed to be released Tues, Oct 20th (of course, 
with my bad German that may be the day they are painting the bathroom or 
somesuch). Usually the sticke is gone that day.

So if anybody else is of a mind to do some onsite research, drop me a 
line and we'll see if we can link up (there are actually four of us from 
our brewclub going).

Fred Waltman
Marina del Rey, CA (LA Area)
fred at brewsupply.com   *or*   waltman at netcom.com
http://www.brewsupply.com
"You can make better beer than you can buy."



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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:38:58 -0400
From: Marc.Arseneau at fluordaniel.com
Subject: Homebrewing Tip #74

     Step #1:
     
     Light the Match
     
     
     Step #2:
     
     THEN turn the gas on.
     
     
     DO NOT perform these simple steps in reverse order.
     
     (the hair will grow back, right?)
     
     Marc "Learning the hard way" Arseneau


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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 12:49:28 -0400
From: Scott Crable <crablesc at email.uc.edu>
Subject: Monterey and Carmel Brewpubs

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I'm planning a trip to the Bay area next week. While I have found numerous
listing from Pubcrawler.com for San Francisco, there isn't much listed for
the Carmel and Monterey area which I will also be visiting. Any
suggestions? If you have a favorite in S.F. that I must visit (besides
Anchor, I'm there dude.), please let me know. Thanks.
Scott Crable
Cincinnati


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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 13:45:43 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: grain container & fermenter for 10 gal batches too

My local homebrew show uses these large, 14 gal, buckets to keep their 50
LB grain bags in with scoops to serve.  These large buckets have sturdy
metal handles attached to them.  The lid is fitted with a large rubber
O-Ring, sits on top of the bucket, then you use this round metal bracket to
put around the outside edge of the lid and it clamps shut and locks in
place.  These seal extremely tight.  I use them to keep grains in and they
don't pick up an ounce of moisture (in my basement).  These can also be
used as fementers.  At 14 gallons, that's plenty of headspace for a 10 gal
batch.  I think I paid about $30 a piece for them.

I have a digital thermometer on my beer fridge that has a probe inside the
fridge and a digital readout that Velcro on the outside of the fridge.  I
have the probe in the fridge and hanging from the top, middle inside the
fridge so it is almost in the dead center of the refrigerator compartment.
I too have a thermometer laying on the bottom inside the fridge that would
occasionally give me a lower reading than the digital.  I suspected too
that the floor might be colder or contain the cooling element?  Or like
heat rises, does cold air fall?  Anyone who knows about fridges let me know
what the deal is, please?  And could recommend a location for the probe to
the digital thermometer that would most accurately reflect the temp of beer
in carboys inside the fridge?

Thanks,

Pete




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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:00:13 -0400 
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: measuring malt

collective homebrew conscience:

aj delange wrote:

>stored malt picks up moisture at an amazing rate.<snip> a change of 2.6% in
4 days! 

does anyone know how much the weight of malt can vary (typically) for a
given volume? i assume it's possible to have 0% moisture but this probably
doesn't happen in the real world. if the range of typical values for
moisture were known, this could tell approximately how much uncertainty is
involved in predicting the sg of a beer when measuring the malt on a gravity
scale.

i measure my malt with a plastic beer mug (helen, ga oktoberfest, '94), at
least for the base malts in recipes, so unless the volume also varies with
moisture pickup, this method is independent of moisture content.  

brew hard,

mark bayer





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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:27:11 -0400
From: mel at genrad.com (Mark E. Lubben)
Subject: Alt, Pils, Centrifuge


In a recent #2815 HBD post AlK said lots about Alt beer recipes without cursing.

I will start by saying I don't mean to start a war, and I have also not had an
Alt beer from Duesseldorf.  I wish to learn!  I agree with Al's comment about
munich malt versus pale+crystal malt based on the (non-Alt) German imports like
Spaten that I have had in the US and during business trips to Switzerland.
50% pils + 50% munich malt extract from St Pat's might be a better extract base.

My question is about Al's suggestion to use
> Wyeast #1338 European Ale  (NOT the over-attenuative and poorly-flocculating
> Wyeast #1007 German Ale the author suggests)

I was rereading the Alt section of Ray Daniels' beer design book.  There is
data from a long series analyzing 500 beers in the big German brewing journal.
The typical apparent attenuation for the commercial Alts (including Zum Uerige)
was about 80%.

Looking at the Wyeast web page, 1338 comes in at 67-71%AA which is the same
as the 1968 London ESB listing!  Wyeast 1007 German Ale is listed at 73-77%AA
which sounds closer to the commercial attenuation.  Ray recommended avoiding
the low attenuation "European" yeast like Horst in Zymurgy.  Hmmmm?

Would Wyeast 2565 Kolsch be a good Alt choice?  This yeast description came
closest to the various style descriptions I have seen for Alt.  I gather the
"ancestry" is somewhat reasonable.  Unfortunately the flocculation is listed as
low too, but a chill to 32F after lagering should knock most of it down, right?

 ---

Has anyone had good luck with a couple ounces Aromatic and 6 ounces Munich
to emulate part of the taste of decoctions for a Bohemian Pilsner? I can do 
decoctions, but I am trying to cut down my spousal beer bullet consumption rate.

 ---

It is odd that someone mentioned a homebrew centrifuge for yeast starters.
Scientific American put their blender based centrifuge article on the web
but it was tinier than a doctor's office model.  The recent starter discussion
had just caused me to contemplate using a stout cord and 2 liter plastic bottle
like a bolo in the back yard.  The neighbors already know I'm crazy...


Prost, Mark


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Date: 04 Sep 98 16:48:06 -0400
From: Jeffrey Rose <jeffrey_rose at eri.eisai.com>
Subject: Hop Plants

I'm growing hops for the first time.  The Fuggles/Willamette rhizomes I
planted last year came up early in the spring and have been growing well
all summer.  I have them trellissed on a 5 foot high lattice frame.  I can
only see about 3-4 cones on this massive tangle of vines.  Did I do
something wrong or should this be expected in the second year of growth?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Jeff




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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 15:08:07 -0700
From: "Larry Maxwell" <Larry at bmhm.com>
Subject: A beer by any other name ...

> Glancing through the latest issue of Southwest Brewing News I
> noticed an article on brewing in the bayou. In it I suddenly see that
> Bob Carbone placed 2nd in the first round of the AHA Nationals with a
> "Shreveporter." Now I find myself just a little tad miffed. I have 
been
> brewing a Honey Porter "Shreveporter" for over 7 years which Bob has
> tasted, seen my label, and knew this was what I call my porter.

As an intellectual property lawyer and homebrewer, I'd just like to say 
 ...
children, children, children, can't we all get along?  It's just a 
hobby.

But for those of you for whom brewing is more than a hobby, I'd like to
add that I still haven't recovered from learning of Spring Street 
Brewing's
apparent claim to WIT as a trademark.

Larry Maxwell
San Diego, CA
larry at bmhm.com


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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:48:57 -0700 
From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at PAC.DFO-MPO.GC.CA>
Subject: Rauchbier

I had a quick look in the archives, but didn't find a lot
of detail on Rauchbier formulation.  I understand that
it should be generally in the Vienna style but assertively
smokey from beechwood smoked malt.

Can anyone suggest some grist percentages?  For
example, using the Weyerman Rauchmalt.. do you
simply use this for the base malt?  

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Canada



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Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:22:21 -0400
From: "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com>
Subject: Ireks Malts

Hi All,

Does anybody know where to find specifics, ie. malt analysis, on the Ireks
line of malts. Although Vinotheque tells me that Ireks is a large
maltster/grower, a brewing buddy and I find it strange that there is no info
easily obtainable, such as on the WWW.

Rob Jones,
Toronto



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Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:40:55 -0400
From: "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com>
Subject: Bad taste in Pat's mouth...

Shame that Pat Badcock wasted that $10CDN ($2US :-(  ) on Keiths Pale Ale.
Next time try one of the Niagara Brewing Company's line up. Gritstone, or
perhaps their stellar Maple Wheat.

Rob Jones,
Toronto



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