---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  1st brew in 2 years - a little help please ("S. Jackson")
  Re: Alt yeast (Scott Murman)
  More on Alts (Fred Waltman)
  Re: All grain Brewing, first timer. ( Bob Fesmire ) (Jim Graham)
  Lagering in caves ("C Perilloux")
  Hop rhizomes (Australia) ("C Perilloux")
  Re: Things to do in Denver... (The Brews Traveler)
  Cave Temperatures (Spencer Tomb)
  Maine Again (JGORMAN)
  Caves and temps ("Jim Busch")
  Re: lagering in caves (Jeff Renner)
  love song of n. carolina beer bar (Vachom)
  Mash enzymes/high mash temp/orange light/Weizen/TSP in NY ("George De Piro")
  Sparge water temp. (Jack Schmidling)
  Alt recipe from Dusseldorf (Jeremy Price)
  on fresh versus dry hops (Peter.Perez)
  Re: Priming with dextrose (Joe Rolfe)
  Re: Sparge water temp. ("Tkach, Christopher")
  Sludge Starter (Badger Roullett)
  sticke (Peter.Perez)
  Alt Yeast Data Point ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  corking homemade bottles (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)


No you're not crazy: the HBD server went down at app 3pm 9/13 and returned
to life noon 9/14. Our apologies for the outtage...

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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:26:02 -0400
From: "S. Jackson" <sjackson at easley.net>
Subject: 1st brew in 2 years - a little help please

Well after a two year hiatus I dusted off the equipment and brewed 10
gal's of pale ale last weekend.  Its not like riding a bike!  Somethings
that (I think) were intuitutive seemed all too foreign.  Anyway I racked
off to a secondary and the beer while tasty was VERY bitter.  Now I made
lots of mistakes (while showing my son and my new girlfriend how to
brew.)  I never checked the mash pH!  And since I have the softest water
in the world {Ca 1.5, Mg 0.6, Na5.3, and hardness is 6.0} I used Ken
Schwartz's Brewater program - Thanks Ken - and have used it sucessfully
in the past but thought the amounts were a bit excessive this time.  No
old records to compare - the ex-wife threw out all that "damn brewing
stuff".  So to 10 gal I added 17.2 gm of epson salt, 4.2gm of baking
soda, 1.8 gm of NaCl and 40.89 gm of CaSO4.  I did not have the 11.4 gm
of CaCO3 called for.  Now comments on the salt additions please.

Also the hops were old - but frozen in jars with co2 purge.  The grain
was also old but tasted Ok. if not a little stale.

Also, other brewing stuff that went out causes me to be in need of a few
replacement corny kegs.  Could someone please forward a current of good
price corny kegs - if such a thing still exists.  Thanks
Steve



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:04:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Alt yeast

Jermey asks  Re: Widmer Hefeweizen/Zum Uerige yeast.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience wrt ferment temp for this yeast for an
> alt?

I fermented mine at 65F and then aged at 50F.  Had no problems at
all.  As I mentioned in my first post, this is a strong yeast (quickly
becoming one of my favorites), and throws a great kreusen head.

Just to offer a counterpoint to Al K's advice on using nearly 100%
Munich malt in an Alt grist, I would suggest keeping the grist at
around 20-30% Munich and trying a single decoction.   Dare to be Alt
you can be.

SM


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:56:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: More on Alts


George and Jeremy ask some questions about Duesseldorfer Alts:

In my trips I have only once managed to get "behind the scenes" and this 
was at zum Schluessel -- which is a bit "tamer" than zum Uerige.

The hop room had only whole Spalt hops.

They fermented in open, rectangular fermenters. It was hard to judge the 
temp, but I would guess high fifties, maybe 60 def F. The yeast had a 
massive, rocky head, but I've gotten that from both 1007 and 1338 so that 
is no help.

The cold room was much cooler, I'd say 40-ish, but it could have been 
colder -- it was summertime.

As for attenuation -- I too disagree with AlK -- I thought they were 
fairly well attenuated for how much malty flavor they had, esp. Uerige. 
My limited conversation with one of their brewers led me to beleive they 
decocted (though I wouldn't trust my German at all). It may come down to 
expectations -- I expected a heavier beer based on the homebrewed and 
microbrewed examples I had had before.

In order to get some more data (assuming in October I bring back my usual 
quota) I will contribute a bottle of Uerige if somebody wants to do some 
tests.

I do agree with AlK on the passion of altbier. Drinking that first zum
Uerige was the closest to a "beer epiphany" I have ever come. It was so
far off my expectations (and so much *better*) that I am sure my jaw
literally dropped. 

Fred Waltman
Marina del Rey, CA (Los Angeles Area)
fred at brewsupply.com   *or*   waltman at netcom.com




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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 03:54:50 -0500
From: Jim Graham <jim at n5ial.gnt.com>
Subject: Re: All grain Brewing, first timer. ( Bob Fesmire )

In HBD #2824, From: DGofus at aol.com writes:

> I am concerned though on converting my extract recipes to all grain.

For a while, frankly, I wouldn't try (and you may decide that you don't
want to, but that's another story).  I'd start with some simple recipes
(pale ale, etc.) with 2 row and maybe one or two specialty grains.  At
first, you really need to

   A) get some practice w/ sparging (don't forget to Vorlauf!!!), so you
      can know what your %yield will typically be
   B) get familiar with what each of the various specialty grains
      will do for your beer.

I converted from extract to all-grain about 10 months ago, so the need
for the above is still fresh in my memory....  :-)

> Also, I will need a good source for my grain. I have been told that $
> wise, it would be best to by bulk grain.

And this is the main reason for my reply....  If you have one, get in
touch with your local homebrew club and any local brewmasters you can
find (they will almost certainly be in the local homebrew club...and
may even know about one that you don't).  This has a number of benefits,
but the specific benefit that applies to your question above is buying
grain.....

One of the local brewers is the Treasurer for our homebrew club (the
Homebrewers Underground, or HBUs[1]).  He orders extra grain and pays
his boss for it from the club's money.  We, in turn, buy it from the
club.  Cost:  a 50 pound bag of pre-cracked Briess 2 row for $22.  Some
specialty malts cost more than $22 (e.g., $25) for a 50 pound bag, but
still....

If you can find something like that, you'll be glad you did (for many
reasons---find a homebrew club and you'll find lots of professional
brewers, advanced all-grain brewers, BJCP judges, etc.,[2] to learn
>from all the time ... it's well worth it).

Later,
   --jim

[1] http://www.gnt.net/~n5ial/hbu/  ...  I'm the HBUs webmaster, btw....

[2] Also remember the help you can get from other folks with things like
    making your equipment (e.g., if I'd bought a counterflow chiller, I
    would have spent a lot of $$$...instead, with the help of one of the
    brewers in the club, I made one for about $10 ...... or then there's
    the Carbonator cap I was going to buy for $15...but instead was
    taught how to make four of them for about $5).

- -- 
73 DE N5IAL (/4)               MiSTie #49997         < Running Linux 2.0.21 >
jim at n5ial.gnt.net || j.graham at ieee.org  ICBM / Hurricane: 30.39735N 86.60439W

          ===  Do not look into waveguide with remaining eye  ===



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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:33:18 +1000
From: "C Perilloux" <peril at bigpond.com>
Subject: Lagering in caves

Jim Booth wonders about lagering in caves with ice.

This was indeed the case in Bavaria, from what I read while 
I lived there.  Unfortunately, the exact source of the info is in a
box, in storage, at the other end of the world, so I only have a
few details from memory.  

In Munich, the lagering "caves" were constructed so that slabs
of ice could be laid around (and above, if memory serves me right)
the lagering beer.  Wood was used for support, and straw for 
insulation, and this was used to extend the cold storage time 
for the beer.  While I'm not sure if they got the temps down near 
freezing as we prefer these days, it was certainly low enough 
to act as some sort of refrigeration and provide cold beer into the
(admittedly short) Bavarian summer.

The ice, by the way, came from the upper reaches of the Isar
river where it begins in the Alps, south of Munich.  A simple 
matter to chop it out and float it down on rafts.

It all sounds pretty tedious and labor intensive, and the Munich
breweries were among the first to get into industrial refrigeration 
when it was first being developed.  

As for ice caves themselves, there are several in the Alps, but
they are at impractical altitudes for lagering.  Just bringing ice
down to the city was enough work; forget hauling the beer UP 
and then bringing it down again!  

Calvin Perilloux
Turrella (where there are NO ice caves, ever), Australia




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:47:28 +1000
From: "C Perilloux" <peril at bigpond.com>
Subject: Hop rhizomes (Australia)

David Ashwell asks recently about getting hop rhizomes, apparently
shipped to him in Australia.  Give a call to AQIS, David!  (That's the
Aussie Quarantine people, who are sending one of my friend's cats
to purgatory/isolation for a while before it's allowed to roam these
shores and grow fat on a diet of native animals).

You'd be hard pressed to get hop rhizomes approved by Customs.
I'd guess that they are DEFINITELY forbidden for you, as a regular guy, 
to import, as are most other plant cuttings or even seeds.  Perhaps if
you had a research facility and isolation methods, and maybe not
even then.  (All this goes for folks flying in on holiday, too.  Customs
seem to be serious, judging from the warnings they give, about any
plant material coming in.)

That said, you aren't limited to simply Pride of Ringwood in your
brewing.  There is a pretty fair selection of whole New Zealand hops 
which can be sold here, though my personal feeling is that the 
NZ varieties are less subtle, more aromatic than their European
namesakes.  Try them out.  And you *might* be able to import 
rhizomes from NZ; I think that's your only (legal) hope.

You can also obtain numerous pre-packaged plugs and pellets of
American and European hops, which are OK to import since they've 
been processed and presumably won't sprout or carry insects.  
They are generally in quite good shape if you buy from a good shop 
that keeps them cold.  As you asked, "Saaz, Teternang (sic), 
Hersbrucker, Willimette (sic), Cascade etc."... all available.  
Drop me a private e-mail if you need a source.

Sorry I can't help you on the hop rhizomes, at least not any 
from the Forbidden Zone (northern hemisphere, etc.).

Calvin Perilloux
Turrella, Australia
(About 12,000 miles southwest of Jeff Renner.)



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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:18:02 -0600
From: The Brews Traveler <BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com>
Subject: Re: Things to do in Denver...

My homebrew club, the Keg Ran Out Club (KROC), in conjunction with the
American Homebrewers Assoc. and the Birko Corporation is once again
hosting the 4th Annual KROC World Brewers Forum.

This year's speakers will be Ray Danials and Brad Kraus.  Ray and Brad
will talk about "The Life and Hard Times of Porters" and "Alt Beers".

The evening is FREE and we furnish food and beer, door prizes and raffle
items.

For more information visit our homepage:

   http://www.henge.com/~mmather/kroc/wbf98.html


- --
John Adams
The Brews Traveler
KROC World Brewers Forum Director
http://www.adamsco-inc.com/BrewsTraveler


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:30:40 -0500
From: Spencer Tomb <astomb at ksu.edu>
Subject: Cave Temperatures


Kathy:
Cave temperatures will vary according to latitude and altitude.  Well water
temperature and the air temperature of a cave will be very close to the
average annual teperature of a locality.  So caves are not all at 55F.
There are ice caves in New Mexico.  If a 55F cave was used to lager  it
took some ice to get the temperature down. 

Spencer Tomb
astomb at ksu.edu

Kathy wrote:
>
>The use of caves to get a stable temperature to age beer and wine is
>classic, but this only gets a temperature of 55F or so unless ice was
>used to lower the temperture.
>
>Does Jeff or anyone know if ice was used in Bohemia or Bavaria in
>addition to lagering in tunnels or caves?  Somehow I have "ice caves" in
>my mind as the ancient home of lager beer.  Was ice used in St Louis or
>Cincinnati?




Return to table of contents


Date: 15 Sep 1998 09:50:44 -0400
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: Maine Again


Last week I asked about some of the Microbreweries and Brew Pubs in Bangor,
Maine.  Thanks for all the responses.  I was looking at the map and realized
that Bar Harbor is close to Bangor and it has several too.  Once again, has
anyone been to any of these and what ones would anyone suggest?


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:01:17 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Caves and temps

As someone who has spent a large portion of my younger days 
underground, I will comment on caves and ambient temperatures.  Caves 
tend to normalize at the median temperature of the surface region, so 
in much of the central cave area of the US one finds temps in the 
50-55F range.  Compare this with the temps found in caves in tropical 
or near tropical climates, in Jamaica as well as Lecheguilla (I know 
I got that one wrong, its one of the worlds most spectacular caves in 
New Mexico) are closer to the high 60s.   I would venture to guess 
that caves in Bavaria are colder than the ones I know well in West 
Virginia while caves in Alaska might be suitable for ice bock!

For those that dont have basements or caves, the old root cellar was 
another method to moderate and control the ambient temps.

Prost!

Jim Busch



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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:56:21 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: lagering in caves

Jim Booth <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us> wrote:

>The use of caves to get a stable temperature to age beer and wine is
>classic, but this only gets a temperature of 55F or so unless ice was
>used to lower the temperture.

55F is often cited as the minimum temperature of caves, but I suspect that
this is not true.  My well water (from only 70 ft.) is 52 summer, 46
winter, so it's colder than 55F down there.
>
>The importance of ice in 19th century brewing of lager beers may have
>been in lagering as well as in shipping via railroad cars.

>Does Jeff or anyone know if ice was used in Bohemia or Bavaria in
>addition to lagering in tunnels or caves?  Somehow I have "ice caves" in
>my mind as the ancient home of lager beer.  Was ice used in St Louis or
>Cincinnati?

I certainly remember reading in some brewing history in the past that ice
was indeed used in Bavarian lagering caves by the monks in middle ages.

To answer some of your questions, including early shipping of lager, here
is an interesting history of early American lager brewing from "One Hundred
Years of Brewing"  which was "A Supplement to The Western Brewer, 1903."  I
have the Arno Press reprint of 1974.  T. F. Straub of the Pittsburgh
Brewing Co. wrote (p. 200):

"My father came to this country in 1830 and located in Pittsburgh as a
cooper, in 1831 ... commenced to brew common beer (top fermenting beer) in
a little copper kettle ... about one barrel."  He moved to Allegheny City
in 1840 and increased his capacity to 20 barrels.  "In 1848 we heard of
Bavarian (lager) beer being brewed in Philadelphia which I claim was the
first to be manufactured in the United States [my note, this seems late by
other references].  With a great deal of trouble that same winter my father
secured a small lot of _untergahr_ yeast, per canal, from Philadelphia, and
commenced brewing lager beer in January or February, 1849. ...

"About 1850 my father first stored (lagered) about three hundred barrels,
and continued to increase until 1854, in which year he made and sold
eighteen hundred barrels.  Ice was unknown then in the manufacture of lager
beer; therefore, caves were blasted in the hills, two miles from the
brewery, and all the beer brewed in the winter was carted to the
_felsenkellers_ for summer use, the supply usually being exhausted by
September 1.  Then the brewer had to resort to common beer again until the
cold weather set in.  There was great demand for Staub's lager during the
years 1853 and 1854, even from Detroit and Cincinnati, as any old resident
who may now be living will remember."

On p. 201, under the heading "First Cincinnati Lager Beer Brewers, "  About
1832 a small plant was erected in Cincinnati [Jackson brewery]... The
Kleiner Brothers were among its early proprietors and laid out the
buildings of the plant substantially as they now appear, covering an area
of three hundred by three hundred feet.  At great cost they constructed
large arched cellars in the hillsides, for which, and for its splendid
natural drainage, the brewery became quite famous."

P. 203,  George Herancourt "In 1852 ... built the first large cellars in
Cincinnati for keeping lager during the hot weather, and made his contracts
at Christmas for the whole year; and when others wished to buy of him they
were refused, for the reson that they had not bought of him during the
winter."

There are other references such as "two miles of subterranean vaults" (p.
232, Chicago's Huck Brewery before the 1871 fire).

Hope this answers some questions, but it raises several more.  How cold
could they lager?  Perhaps just cold enough to keep the beer from spoiling?
What color was the beer?  Staub heard of "Bavarian beer" being brewed in
Philadelphia. Beer in Munich (and Bavaria in general?) was dark until this
century (I think Jackson puts it as late as the early 20's when water
chemistry manipulations allowed Helles to be brewed in an area with
carbonaceous water.)  How did they keep their yeast between brewing
seasons?  How did common beer differ from lager - only in yeast and
fermentation, or in recipe as well?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:26:53 -0500
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: love song of n. carolina beer bar

	Please excuse the non-brewing aside, but I have to comment on a beer
bar a couple of North Carolinians have mentioned recently.  
	Is there really a beer bar in N.C. named T.S. Elliot's?  I guess it
figures that at some point U.S. pub owners would run short on
two-initial-then-surname names for their places and have to resort to
T.S. Elliot (with the clever addition of an extra "L").  Somehow,
though, T.S. Elliot's doesn't seem to impart that quaint
flea-market-imbedded-in-the-walls kind of eccentricity pub owners are
shooting for with these kinds of names.  Perhaps, though, there are
ragged claws dangling from the ceiling and sepia proto-porn photos of
the carbuncular clerk and the typist.  Does the barman rap on the bar at
closing time?  Does the menu come with massive footnotes?  Do people
shun the place in April?  Must one wear one's trousers rolled?  Please
tell me this menu item doesn't exist:  "Do I Dare to Drink a Peach Wheat
Ale."  
	Item # 8 trillion in my contention that the world is a beautiful place.

Mike
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:26 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Mash enzymes/high mash temp/orange light/Weizen/TSP in NY

     Hi all,
     
     Thank the gods (Karl and Pat) that the digest is safe.  I thought I 
     was going to die without the fix!
     
     Pete asks the interesting question about why mash enzymes have evolved 
     to work so well at temperatures much higher than the plant would ever 
     experience?
     
     The germinating plant requires that protein and starch be degraded 
     over a period of days.  At the temperatures in the field these enzymes 
     work at the rate needed by the plant, which is not necessarily the 
     fastest rate.  If the enzymes worked too quickly in the field the 
     endosperm would saccharify much more quickly than the young plant 
     would metabolize the sugar, leaving a really tempting, sweet treat for 
     animals to eat (and rain to wash away).  This would not be conducive 
     to achieving reproduction.
     
     It is either God's will or Chance that gave these enzymes such high 
     reaction rates at mash temperatures.  Which you choose to believe is a 
     personal matter.
     -----------------------------------
     Greg followed my advice and used a high saccharification temperature 
     for mashing a sweet stout.  He has only achieved 50% AA and wonders if 
     this is due to the high mash temp (>70C/158F).
     
     My guess is that the fermentation is stuck.  You don't need Clinitest 
     to know when fermentations are done or not, just some experience (and 
     a forced fermentation helps, too).  The beer should get down around 
     1.020 (my guess from my experience).  If you want to know the final 
     gravity with more certainty pitch an excess of ale yeast into a sample 
     of the beer and ferment it out at high room temperature for a couple 
     of days.
     
     Yes, some yeasts do attenuate more than others but many of the common 
     brewing strains will ferment the wort to the same gravity (as measured 
     by your average homebrewer's hydrometer).  If you can use the same 
     yeast as the primary, that's great.  If not, use a dry yeast (or 
     whatever is most convenient).
     --------------------------------
     Dan says that he has heard that Unibroue is manufacturing their new 
     Pilsner under orange lights to protect it from skunking during its 
     time in the brewery.  It is packaged in clear bottles.
     
     If this is true, it is one of the most absurd things I have heard.  
     What will happen to the beer once it leaves the brewery?
     
     It is more likely that they are using chemically reduced isoalpha acid 
     extract for hopping the beer.  These extracts are light-proof.  They 
     are also called "tetra hops" and a few other things.  It is even more 
     likely that they want the beer to skunk so that it tastes more like 
     Molson, in which case they are using regular hops and allowing 
     chemistry to take its course.
     
     This reminds me of a guy that used to work here that would turn the 
     lights off in his office when hand-labeling an experimental product 
     that was potentially light-sensitive.  He didn't seem to understand 
     that it wasn't manufactured or sold in the dark...I'm so glad he's 
     gone.  Some poor souls in Florida have to deal with him now! 
     ------------------------------------
     Mike has heard that he need not use a secondary fermenter for 
     Hefeweizen, and wonders how long it should stay in the primary.  He 
     guesses 4 weeks.
     
     4 weeks in the primary is not a good thing for any beer style.  You 
     risk yeasty off-flavors developing in the brew because of prolonged 
     contact with a large quantity of deteriorating yeast.  Keeping the 
     beer at fermentation temperature will accelerate this process.
     
     The purpose of the poorly named "secondary fermenter" is really to 
     separate the young beer from the yeast cake while allowing suspended 
     yeast and stuff to settle.  Fermentation should be complete (or darn 
     close to it) when you rack into the secondary.  I tend to keep my 
     clearing tanks (aka "secondary fermenters") at relatively cool 
     temperatures to facilitate clarification.
     
     You can make some styles without using a clearing tank.  Hefeweizen is 
     one of them.  It is supposed to be cloudy, so if you want to you can 
     bottle or keg right from the primary after fermentation is complete.  
     I sometimes use a clearing tank just to get some of the excess yeast 
     out (too much yeast in the package can do more harm than good), but 
     sometimes I don't (if the Weizen is destined for quick consumption).
     
     Yes, Germans do keg Weizenbier.  I prefer the bottle-conditioned 
     versions, though.  The kegs of Weizen served here in the US are always 
     less carbonated than they should be.  This is because most bars don't 
     have separate pressure regulators on each keg, so the kegged beers all 
     equilibrate at the same carbonation level (which often matches that of 
     a popular Irish stout).  This irritates me to no end.  Mixed gas 
     serving may be the worst thing since sliced bread (in my opinion; yes, 
     I know it is useful for pushing beer long distances).
     ---------------------------
     Alan mentions that TSP is illegal in NY state.  He doesn't say why, 
     though.  Phosphates were long ago banned from detergents in NY State.  
     Some environmentalist nonsense about algae blooms and low-O2 water 
     killing fish, etc.
     
     In the nearby Garden State (New Jersey) they don't have such concerns, 
     so you can buy it there if you desire.  Just be sure to bring the 
     waste water back to Jersey with you.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:30:02 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Sparge water temp.

Keith Busby <kbusby at ou.edu>

"During my last brew session, I noticed that the temperature of the mash
during sparging dropped gradually to somewhere around 150F.....

The first thing you must do is ignore everything ever written on
sparge water temp (except what I write, of course).

The only fact worth considering is the MASH temperature and you must
adjust the sparge water temp so that the proper mash temp is
maintained.  Vast amounts of heat are lost getting the sparge water
into the mash and through the mash tun itself.

You probably can not go wrong if you simply bring the sparge water
to a boil and turn it off.  This is my SOP and my mash never even
gets back to the mash out temp much less too high.

Just another one of those Momilies that needs to be aired every
once in awhile.

js


- -- 

Visit our WEB pages:     http://user.mc.net/arf

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday




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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:40:25 -0400
From: Jeremy Price <pricejy at email.uc.edu>
Subject: Alt recipe from Dusseldorf

With all the talk about alt biers recently, I thought that I'd post an
e-mail to the digest that was sent to me form a brewery in Dusseldorf. The
e-mail was sent as a private communication, so I won't give out the
brewery's name. I had sent them an e-mail asking them (in my best German)
for their recipe. Here is what I received..

>Dear Jeremy Price!
>
>Our recommendations are if posible in english.
>
>Output: 60 litres
>
>Malt:  9,00   kg   Pilsener malt
>          0.21   kg   Caramel malt
>          0,125 kg  Roasted malt
>
>           37 litres water
>
>Mash:  15 min   48 C
>            10 min   52 C
>            30 min   62 C
>            20 min   72 C
>              5 min   78 C
>
>            90 min cooking
>
>            10 min after cooking-start   1. Hopfengabe
>            20 min after cooking-start   2. Hopfengabe
>
>The kind of hop is not the problem. You need 9,95 mg a(alpha)-Sure for
>each litre output.
>
>GOOD LUCK and best wishes.

Feel free to convert the metric this to our lovely American system. I find
the choice of malts a bit surprising; no Munich malt for one. I personally
have never had this particular alt bier, so I have no comment on the
outcome of this recipe. I did ask them shat type of hops they use, but with
all of the hop additions coming early in the boil, it doesn't make much
difference.
I wish they would have commented about fermentation and cold conditioning
temperatures and times. I don't know about you all, but I am READY to brew
an ALT. This weekend I think.....

Gidde up!


Jeremy Price








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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:07:08 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: on fresh versus dry hops

I just got to thinking about this and came up with something that seeme
reasonable.  My thinking, and I could be wrong here, is that the hops don't
shrink or lose any size as they dry.  So if you have a pile of dry hops in
front of you that you weighed out to 1 oz. or was weighed out o 1 oz. by
your homebrew supply shop, you could just lay out a pile of fresh hops the
same size.  If you wanted to be really anal you could count the number of
whole hop cones in each pile.  Then you wouldn't have to worry about how
much moisture is in them, etc.  I would think these should be pretty close
to the same levels of flavor and bitterness.  As a matter of fact I would
then weigh both piles and see exactly how much more the pile of fresh hops
weighted.

Is there something that I am missing here that trashes my theory?

Thanks,
Pete




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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:15:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Re: Priming with dextrose

Question was asked about the amount of dextrose to add to 
a given volume to get a certain level of carbonation.

I doubt you will find an exact number.  When our brewery
was doing these calcuation strictly by gram/liter - carbonation
varied quite a bit. (as measured by head pressure gauge by Zahm).

After looking into the raw materials (dextrose powdered form)
we found that the batch to batch (delevered to our brewery)
had differing moisture contents.  This was determined after
a call to the mfg'er and seeing the tight specs they mfg to


Bottle conditioning is not all that difficult a concept providing
you have proper tools (real good measurment tools hydrometer/sacharomter
 - low range ones in particular). Once you know for sure the yeast has taken
the beer to the "bottom" (by whatever means you do that) you can add
a certain volume of primings at a certain percent sugar.  Dont forget
to add the fresh yeast before bottling.  The goal is not how many grams/liter
(as this can change based on daily humidity and bag to bag of the primings).
My mentor basically got away from using powder and went to liquid glucose
due to ease of use and less variance.  I can see why.  It was a pain in the 
butt to measure volume and gravity to the acurate levels required - three
times a day....YMWV

Not sure where i saw some of these formula that I based mine on, but they
can basically be found in some of the higher end homebrew. I dont have 
all the records available but 1degree plato raise rings a bell for
what we did and gave us our moderate level of Co2 2.3-2.5 range.

forgive the typos - i went from a company that had t1 to one with 56k
connections....slow......

anyway if i can find some of the brew sheets in the piles  i will post 
back.

good luck and great brewing

joe rolfe




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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:17:40 -0400
From: "Tkach, Christopher" <tkach at cabletron.com>
Subject: Re: Sparge water temp.

Keith-

I can personally vouch for high tannin extraction with
higher sparge temps.  I use to regularly raise my sparge
water to boiling during the mash and place it in a cooler
to keep it warm...incidently I was sparging w/ 200F water,
and my beers showed it...every single one of them was
highly astringent.  It took me a good 6 months to figure
out what the hell was the problem as I perceived the off
flavor as being smokey, which had never shown up in my
beers before, but then again, I had just switched
over to all-grain from partial mashes.  Since then I've
moved, so the water is different, but at the sametime I
lowered my sparge water to around 175F, and haven't had
a problem since, even with delicate beers.

I don't see how leaving the burner on would help you, as
it will only be heating the liquid that has already gone
through the grain bed, I guess it would lower the amount
of time it took to start your boil :).  I say go ahead,
and try raising the sparge to 180F, and see what happens.

 - Chris
Dover, NH


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:27:31 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Sludge Starter

Great Googlie Mooglies...

I recently saved the sludge on teh bottom of my primary 

(from a 5 gallon batch, pitched Whitbread Ale and Australian Ale, see the
whole slow start question I asked before, from a whole hopped batch strained
with a choreboy at teh bottom of the kettle so it was pretty clean sludge).

I simply poured it from teh carboy into a clean, and rinsed with 140 deg
water large beer bottle, and stuck it in the fridge with a post it note
saying "Do NOT mistake this for a Bottle of Shakespeare Stout!" (i used a
rouge bottle).

Recently i did the 2 batch runnings (period style all that) that i will post
teh notes from later.  When i racked this to primary, I pitched half of the
sludge (warmed to room temp) with a packet each of Nottingham (i have my
reasons for pitching 3 yeasts).  2 hours later Badda Bing Badda Boom.. and
away we go.  i had a nice active fermentation, and and happy airlock.

Question:
I didn't do nothing fancy, no yeast washing, no autoclaving, no stepping up,
nothing.  Is going to work every time like this?  is this an acceptable
practice?  I am not too anal about my brewing, and it always seems to come
out fine., but yeast seems to be an unforgiving medium...  The nottingham
pitching is not going to be standard practice, just the sludge saving, and
repitching..

Comments?
***************************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger
Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven



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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:48:30 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: sticke

All this talk about Alts has got me itchin to brew another.  I am most
likely going to brew a classic Dusseldorfer Alt, but, I have been getting
more and more interested in brewing a Sticke.  But I don't know to what
extent the hops and malts are modified from a classic Alt recipe.  Seems
like enough people here have reputable Alt knowledge and recipes that
someone should be able to post me an authentic recipe for Sticke, or at
least something to start with.

Thanks,
Pete




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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:00:14 -0700
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: Alt Yeast Data Point

Greetings all...thought I would join in the discussion regarding
altbiers and yeasts.  I just racked an altbier that I made about a week
ago.  I am fermenting with Brewtek's "Old German Ale" strain, which I
stepped up from a slant to about 2 L prior to use.  Primary fermentation
was at 58 - 60 F, and at racking the gravity had dropped from 1.050 to
1.010.  The yeast seems to perform well at the lower temperatures -
definitely a strong top fermentor, with a thick paste of yeast rising to
the top of the foam after a few days.  I will post again later as the
brew progresses.

By the way, I am curious as to why I don't hear the Brewtek strains
mentioned more frequently on the Digest (no affiliation with Brewer's
Resource, yada yada).  They are available by mail order, and have quite
a large and interesting selection of strains, although their origins are
unspecified.  Thoughts or comments?  Brew on, Mark Tomusiak, Boulder,
Colorado.


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Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:08:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: corking homemade bottles


Hi All. My wife is a potter and has recently made me a batch of beautiful
hand made ceramic bottles to be used primarily with meads and
barleywines. In her original attempts at making bottles it became clear
that keeping the opening within a tollerance sufficient for capping would
be pretty hard. So, we decided that the way to go would be to try corking,
probably with wire cages, that way she doesn't have to be so careful with
the opening diameters. However, I haven't had any experience with corks 
(at least, not putting them *into* bottles) so I'd like to get some input
from those of you w/ such experience. Specifically, what equiptment would
you suggest, what are the best corks to buy and how do you go about
sanitizing them? also, will they work OK if there is say about 2-3 mm
variation in the opening diameter?

I'm hoping to use these as gifts and for long-term storage of special
brews. If anyone is interested in custom made bottles send me an e-mail
and I'll let you know how this works out...

 -Alan

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





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