---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: potatoes as the source of fermentables ("Michel J. Brown")
  Burners ("Houseman, David L")
  re: Oats are not rye ("Michel J. Brown")
  Surplus suppliers? (Gail Elber)
  Sending pennies back to heaven (Gail Elber)
  If it was Dopplebock, I'd call it Exterminator (Charles Burns)
  Secodary fermentation: Is it really needed for a Stout? (LEAVITDG)
  Munich malt, Cloudy Brew? ("David Root")
  Reverse HERMS? ("Houseman, David L")
  Clini***t ("Spies, James")
  Quinoa - picky details (Jeff Renner)
  Anyone tried this? (David A Bradley)
  Campden Tablets/Brita ("A. J. deLange")
  OVERKILL and clean areas (Paul Niebergall)
  Starting from single yeast colonies (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Re: basement brewing, fixing enamel (Paul Shick)
  GFCI & lager ("John A. MacLaughlin")
  Belgium&holland ("Thomas Kramer")
  Laminar flow hoods - Big Bucks for small return? (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Burners ("silent bob")
  spactacular yeast site! (Biggiebigg)
  HERMS thoughts (Brad Plummer)
  famous beer quotes ("Taber, Bruce")
  Quiet Burner (Nathan Kanous)
  Storing grain ("Tom & Dee McConnell")
  Re:  Name that grapefruit! ("Tom & Dee McConnell")
  the never ending whining about clinitest (Jonathan Edwards)
  Bavarian Wheat data point (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Is my beer going to kill me? (Tim Burkhart)
  Clinitest Test (Al Korzonas)
  Ego ("Luke VanSanten")


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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:50:45 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: potatoes as the source of fermentables

>I am thinking of experimenting with fresh potatoes as a source of
>fermentables in a Potato-Something Ale.  I assume that they should >be  
boiled real well...then can I just mash them with an equal amount >of 
malt?

Yes, you *can* do a cereal mash if you're so inclined. But potatoes are 
already soluble at mashing temperatures. I have found that cooking the 
spuds first will cause the starch to go into solution more readily.

>Anyone have experience or care to advise me on this truly >experimental 
brew?

Potatoes are easy to use in a mash, and give beer an unusual flavor, 
akin to corn giving a distinctive flavor profile. My Potato Pils (AKA 
Spudweiser) won a blue ribbon at the 1996 Oregon State Fair for American 
Style Lagers, and most of the judges comments were that it had too much 
body for an American Premium Lager! And that was with 6# of 6 row, and 
3# of potatoes in a 5 gallon batch :-/ Just remember to go light on the 
hops -- I used 2 oz of 3% AA Saaz hops, and had 1 oz in the boil at 60 
min, 1/2 oz at 30 min, and 1/2 oz at the end of the boil. Tasted like a 
CAP, minus the sweet corn taste IMHO.

> ..Darrell

                Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
      2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
    "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"
          L. Pasteur


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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:34:18 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Burners

William Graham asks about burners.

THE ring burner you're looking for is from Superior Products,
http://www.superprod.com/ .  I have the Metal Fusion burner and the
Superior one.  I use both.  But I wish I now had two Superior's.  While
about twice as expensive as the cheaper versions, it burns quietly,
cleanly and efficiently.  Standard disclaimers apply.  

Dave Houseman




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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:39:44 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: Oats are not rye

>Michel Brown relates his experiences with oats, and seems to >equate 
this to brewing with rye.

No, that is *not* what I said. What I said was that a friend brewed a 
rye witbier (honest!) which looked more like a pils, but I digress. I 
also said that I brewed a Russian Imperial Oatmeal Stout. Both beers 
developed a funny cloying dryness *suggestive* of astringency. If you 
have Michael J. Lewis' book "Stout" (#10 in the Classic Beer Style 
Series), look at the bottom of page 30 where he states "Perhaps this 
grain was also first used to promote the healthy image of stout, as it 
is not otherwise a particularly desirable brewing grain. Our own 
experience with oatmeal as a brewing ingredient suggests a significant 
contribution of astringency; this is hardly akin to the "silky" 
character commonly detected in such stouts by beer writers." (Emphasis 
is the authors) As I never equated oatmeal with rye, who can provide any 
factual information to prove or refute the assertions made? Maybe a 
Sulkowich reagent ;^)

>I have, however, had many commercial and homebrewed
>beers brewed with oats, and noticed _no_ similarity to a rye beer. 

No argument there, I just don't know where you get the idea that I 
equivocated them, except for my prior notation of dryness in the finish 
of two distinctly different beers.

>Rye is rye and oats is oats...

Ok, so what's the point? I guess I just don't understand <X-*

                Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
      2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
    "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"
          L. Pasteur


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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:19:06 -0700
From: Gail Elber <gail at brewtech.com>
Subject: Surplus suppliers?

I'm preparing an article about a guy's hot-rod homebrew system, and I want
to include a list of surplus houses for the benefit of readers who want to
obtain pumps, motors, and electrical components. If you have a favorite
supplier, please e-mail me with the company's contact information. Thanks!





Gail Elber, Associate Editor
BrewingTechniques
P.O. Box 3222
Eugene, OR 97403
Tel. 541/687-2993
Fax 541/687-8534
http://brewingtechniques.com




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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:30:35 -0700
From: Gail Elber <gail at brewtech.com>
Subject: Sending pennies back to heaven

I have acquired a five-gallon carboy that used to hold a collection of
pennies (regrettably, I didn't get the pennies). The pennies have left a
green stain inside the carboy that hasn't yielded to TSP. I'm thinking I
should try cleaning it with something acid. Should I just use vinegar, or
is there something at the hardware store that I should try?





Gail Elber, Associate Editor
BrewingTechniques
P.O. Box 3222
Eugene, OR 97403
Tel. 541/687-2993
Fax 541/687-8534
http://brewingtechniques.com




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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 98 21:14 PDT
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: If it was Dopplebock, I'd call it Exterminator

It all began last May at the Big-12 brew, you remember - the attempt at our
world record barleywine brew. Randy (from Modesto) and I got 12 gallons of
second runnings from a 7 barrel batch of a concoction nowhere near Rob
Moline's original recipe. There we were, with Terry Bonham of Jack Russell
Brewing with him asking us what we thought of his recipe vs the Rob Moline
recipe. Randy and I looked at each other and said, "what the hell, looks
great!". Talk about being put on the spot. Cheeezzzzeee whizzzz.

Well, check the reports from last May and June for details on the big brew,
but Randy and I got 12 gallons of second runnings of that mash at around
1.060. We had high alpha  hops galore (Columbus, Centennial and Chinook). We
split the batch that day, kareoke'd all night and were like zombies the next
day. I ended up using Cascade (had to be a 'C' hop of some kind) for dry
hopping. The OG was 1.072 FG 1.018 on my half and people just loved the
stuff. Absolutely fit NO BJCP or AHA category, but was close to an IPA.

Now for the real story. I wanted to make an IPA that had the malt and hop
character of BIG RED (which is what I had called my half of that batch) but
the color of an IPA, ie pale. So a few weeks ago I emailed Terry to ask if I
could come up and do some recipe work on it. Sure he says. Terry is an
ex-homebrewer doing wonderfully well in the microbrewery business. So I stop
by one afternoon and he spends well over an hour with me on his computer
working up a recipe hopefully with the same malt profile tastewise without
that RED color. The beer looked pretty big so we added a bit extra of
everything hoping to leave enough for a second runnings MILD.

Oh, the perils of parti-gyle brewing. I was hoping for a 1.072 IPA and a
1.038 Mild. I've never made a mild but wanted a good session type beer on
tap. Too many drunks running around my basement lately I guess. Well, we got
the total gravity right but uh-oh, I just didn't watch the sparge very
closely. Ended up with a 1.084 OG IPA and a 1.032 OG Mild! This is a BIG IPA.

In an attempt to try and keep things cool, I fermented at 62F with 1056.
That was a pun incase you missed it because this is one HOT IPA. The sucker
finised at 1.017. You can calculate alcohol levels yourself, but one thing
is certain, its HOT. In another attempt to hide the problem I dry hopped for
10 days with a full ounce of whole CASCADE. It almost does it, almost hides
the alcohol but not quite. It can definitely be used for Exterminating any
household bugs you might have hanging around, thus the name Exterminator IPA.

Basically I think the recipe was good, just needs a bit more care (or a bit
less homebrew during the mash/sparge). If anyone is crazy enough to want it,
I'll be glad to provide it. Just remember you gotta go see Terry up at Jack
Russel, because he's the only one I know that has the ingredients. Malts
like imported Halcyon Pale Ale are very hard to come by. If you come to the
Northern California Home Brew Festival this coming weekend in Napa, you'll
have the unique opportunity of being exterminated by this IPA.

Charley (the Exterminator) in N. Cal



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 03:35:59 -0500 (EST)
From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: Secodary fermentation: Is it really needed for a Stout?

Date sent:  30-SEP-1998 03:29:49 

I have been experimenting, as of late, with peat-smoked grain, and 
presently have a Smoked Stout (more dry than sweet, I hope) in the primary. 
 And, I was wondering if , once I make sure all of the yeasties have 
stopped their good work (without which, we'd be very sad) can I not just 
bottle?  I suppose I'll get more stuff on the bottom of the bottles,..and I 
suppose that I can under do the amount of corn sugar, just is case ....
Any thoughts?

And, I want to say that I appreciate the opportunity to converse with so 
many folks, and thank those who have answered my previous posts.

[the potatoe ale is in primary, and I will report on it when the data is in
, for those who asked in private messages to me]
Thankyou all for the help.
 ...Darrell
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/
_/Darrell Leavitt                              _/
_/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/
_/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu   _/
_/AX25 : n2ixl  at  kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa            _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 07:58:55 -0400
From: "David Root" <droot at concentric.net>
Subject: Munich malt, Cloudy Brew?

    I have volunteered to brew an experimental batch for our Club, The
Niagara
Association of Homebrewers.  We (I) decided to brew an all Munich malt
base and try 10 different yeasts.  I will be brewing 15 gallons of brew.
10 for the club, and 5 for myself.  Can i do a one step mash  at  155 dF?

    The last batch I brewed for my brothers wedding was a light ale.  I used
the 40,(15 min),60(20 min),70(90 min).  Used Wiessenhimer Pilsner malt.
Got great break.  When the brew was cool in my 1/2 keg, i put O2 into the
drain valve for about 3 Minutes.  Lots of frothing and foaming.  This
destroyed all of those nice big pieces of break material.  The wort would
not clear.  I did a whirlpool, and some dropped out, but not much.  Now
my beer is cloudy.  It has been in the keg for about 2 weeks. What can i
do to clear it up?  This is the palest brew i ever made.  Tastes Great.

    My brother said "Don't brew any of that brown stuff because nobody
will drink it".  I have 10 gallons of this beer in 2 corny kegs.

David Root Lockport NY  droot at concentric.net



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:22:27 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Reverse HERMS?

I've been thinking about experimenting with something to heat the mash
in my Gott other than adding boiling water or pulling decoctions.  The
recent thread on HERMS brought me to the realization that I was on the
right track.  I do use a RIMS, pump and heater, but just to do a 20min
vorlauf and maintain the temperature, not to try and raise it.  I use
the pump to move hot or boiling water as well.  It had occurred to me
that I could pump the wort through an unused immersion chiller suspended
in my HLT and heat it that way.  But has been pointed out, the design is
critical so as not to raise the temperature of the wort moving through
the exchanger so much.  So I'd been thinking about reversing the process
and just putting the immersion chiller into the Gott mash/lauter tun and
pumping the hot/boiling water through it to heat the mash.  This would
seem to perhaps be gentler on the wort and more controllable.  What do
the HERMS-knowledgeable folks think of this approach?  

Dave Houseman


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:11:29 -0400
From: "Spies, James" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Clini***t

All -

Maybe Al is right . . .

Maybe Dave is right . . .

Maybe all of us are tired of hearing the same arguments again and again
 . . .

I know that I'll probably never use Clini***t, not because of any lucid
and poignant arguments made by the aforementioned cage-match combatants,
but because I'm more than satisfied with the quality of my beer *right
now*.  Perhaps some HBD'ers would like to explore the utility of the pee
test.  Go right ahead, knock yourselves out.  Perhaps other HBD'ers know
that they never will.  Great as well.  One thing jumps out at me,
though, and that is that *all* of us HBD'ers know how to use the
archival search function if we want to relive the (always enthralling)
back-and-forth arguments which, like the rogue zombie barley seed,
refuse to die . . .

If folks want to report back to the HBD with results of their Clini***t
experimentation, or if some *new* ideas come to the fore, by all means,
let us know.  Otherwise, let's move on to a useful botulism thread or
something.

Dreading future sprouts from the compost heap . . .

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:31:03 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Quinoa - picky details

A systematic botany lesson, not too pedantic, I hope:

Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> wrote
>
>Quinoa is not a cereal grain, though it is often treated as one.  It's
>more of an herb.

Quinoa is, as Scott says, not a cereal grain.  Cereal grains are edible
seeds (or fruit, actually) of grasses (members of Gramineae, or grass
family).  The edible seed of the quinoa plant is often called a
pseudo-cereal, but is technically a fruit of a member of the chenopodium
(goosefoot) family, Chenopodiaceae, and is closely related to the common
weed, lamb's quarters.  Another pseudo-cereal is buckwheat, a member of the
same family as rhubarb, Polygonaceae.  Grasses comprise a huge family that
is part of a major division of flowering plants - monocotyledeons (or
monocots), which also includes lilies and other plants with  parallel vein
leaves and one embryonic seed leaf, or cotyeldeon.  The other major
division is the dicots, which have network veins and two seed leaves.  This
includes quinoa, buckwheat, oaks, dandelions, ragweed, etc., most familiar
plants, as a matter of fact.

However, to call quinoa an herb in contradistinction to cereal grains, is
not accurate.  An herb is " a plant, either annual or perennial, with stems
dying back to the ground at the end of the growing season." *   Most
grasses, including cereal grasses,  are herbs.  Bamboo is a notable
exception.  Quinoa is an annual herb that grows from three to six feet
high, and like millet its seeds are in large clusters at the end of the
stalk.

Jeff

* from _Manual of Vascular Plants of Norhteastern United States and
Adjacent Canada_, Gleason, H.A.  and
arthur Cronquist; New York: Van Nostrand Reinholt Co., 1963.

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:23:29 -0500
From: David A Bradley <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at lilly.com>
Subject: Anyone tried this?

If you've ever tried running a RIMS mash like the following,
please let me know what your outcome was!

Add grain to water at RT.
Recirculate past cool element.
When runoff clears (?), turn on heater to set point ca. 150F.
Go to sleep.
Get up.
Do mashout to 175F.
Etc......

My system heats from 1.1 F/min to 0.5 F/min as f(temp).

Anyone?

Dave in Indy
Home of the 3-B Brewery, (v.) Ltd.




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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:24:22 -0500
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Campden Tablets/Brita

I've had a couple of questions on the Campden tablets idea and a lot of
water has passed over the dam, so to speak, since I first posted this
idea so I'm a little smarter on it now.
The simplest way to remember the dose is one tablet per 20 gal. This
will handle up to 6 mg/L free chlorine, 3 mg/L chloramine or any
combination of the two in which twice the chloramine concentration plus
the free chlorine concentration is 6 or less. This suggests that the
dose can be calculated by the following steps:
1) Add twice the chloramine concentration in mg/L to the chlorine
concentration in mg/L
2) Divide by 6
3) Multiply by the number of gallons to be treated
4) Divide by 20
The result is the number of Campden tablets needed. Suppose this is less
than 1. You can try to cut the tablets up. Drug stores sell little
plastic tablet cutters which will do this or you can suspend (it won't
dissolve) a Campden tablet in a small volume of water and add the
fraction of that volume which corresponds to the fraction of the tablet
you need. Crushing the tablet helps. Don't use warm water as it will
speed the release of SO2 and it really the SO2 that does the job.

Double or treble the required dose is easily tolerated (vintners use 1 -
2 tablets per gallon) so that if the answer is a half a tablet or a
third of a tablet you can just use a whole tablet. It probably makes
sense to round up to the nearest half tablet or whole tablet to be sure
you get all the chlorine and chloramine if actual levels are higher than
the reported (or measured) ones.

Each  tablet weighs about  695 mg of which about 45%  is potassium and
about 55% of which is sulfur dioxide so you can estimate the amounts of
those which will go into the water from the dose you use. The potassium
stays through to the beer. Each mg/L of free chlorine will convert  0.85
mg of sulfur dioxide to 1.3 mg/L sulfate and each mg/L chloramine will
convert 1.7 mg of SO2 to  2.7 mg/L sulfate. Excess SO2 will either
reduce something in the mash converting into sulfate or be driven off as
gas in the boil. If all the SO2 in a Campden tablet is converted to
sulfate 683 mg of sulfate are added. In a 1 tablet per 20 gal dose this
is about 9 mg/L.

The reaction takes place fairly quickly  and is essentially complete in
a couple of minutes. As with any dechloriantion method I recommend that
a check be done with a chlorine test kit. These can be had from several
sources including pet stores that sell fish gear. Those particular kits
contain ortotolidine and Nesslers reagent both of which are pretty nasty
so be careful if you buy one of those. Most other kits use much less
toxic DPD.

Tim Green wrote about the use of activated carbon filters for this
function. These will indeed do the job but they appear to be less
effective on chloramine than chlorine. In my experiments with the common
Brita I found that 16% of  monochloramine remained after a single pass.
The Brita literature indicates that only 7.5% of free chlorine will
remain. I have not verified their number but have no reason to
disbelieve it. The answer for chloramine where 84% reduction isn't
enough is simple: a second pass. This leaves 16% of 16% which should be
a sufficient reduction in most situations. Brita users need to be aware
that these and similar devices are also removing calcium, carbonate,
sulfate etc. BTW an interesting twist with activated carbon and
chloramine is that if the water contains  only chloramine the carbon
theoretically never needs to be replaced as it is regenerated as fast as
it is oxidized.



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:22:31 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: OVERKILL and clean areas

The simplest method for keeping *relatively* sanitary conditions when
working with yeast cultures (or mycelia strands, if that is your thing) is to
build a temporary clean tent with a plastic painter drop cloth.  It is quick,
easy, and effective.  

1) Thoroughly sanitize your kitchen counter top, back wall, and the sides
and underside of the overhanging cabinets.  Use dilute bleach solution,
Lysol, or alcohol.  (If you have nice cabinets, you might want to check
that the cleaning solution does not remove the finish, first).

2) Un-roll the plastic drop cloth and secure one edge to the front of the
cabinets.  Carefully drape the drop cloth down to the counter top, trim
with scissors, and secure with more duct tape.  Carefully seal all areas
where air can get in with additional duct tape.

3) Cut two arm holes in the plastic to work through.  (It helps if you put all
of your pre-sanitized equipment and supplies on the counter top before
you start to tape the drop cloth down, otherwise you will need to pass
everything through the arm holes).

There you have it, the optimal clean work area in terms of money and
work versus degree of sanitization (i.e. low money, low time, high
degree of sanitization).  I have found that although somewhat crude, this
method really cuts down on almost all potential airborne contamination. 
And that is what you are really trying to achieve with a glove box or
laminar flow hood.

One word of caution: If you are planning on flame sterilizing your utensils
(inoculation hoop, scalpel, etc.) do not try to re-sanitize your work area
by spraying half a can of Lysol through the arm holes.  I did this once; I
put my trusty Bic lighter through the arm hole, flicked it, and kaboom, I
literally blew myself across the room.  The good part was that I did not
have to worry about waring gloves since my hands and arms had been
flame sterilized. Good thing I did not have a beard! ;).  

Brew on, 

Paul Niebergall
Kansas City


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:48:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Starting from single yeast colonies

HI. Jeremy Price wrote:

>I would be carefull about picking single colonies for starters. There are
>some mixes cultures on the market, like wyears Bavarian wheat (I think)
>that are a combination od s. cerevisiae and s. delbrucki  (sp?)  I am
>certian that in some of the belgian ale strains there is also a mixed
>population of yeasts. If only one of the strains is used, the flavor
>profile of the beer may be altered comsiderably. By picking only the fat
>colonies, you may be eliminating the other strain.

> Also, the big healthy yeast colony may not be the intended strain, as
>there are wild yeasts that can outgrow the brewing strain.


1. Correct. Obviously you will have to be careful with mixed strains. I
believe the Wyeast strain you are referring to is their 3056 which people
seem prone to confuse with their single strain 3068. If you are starting
from a mixed strain getting the correct strain ratios will be problematic
to say the least!

2. As far as wild yeast goes this should not be a problem. Taking
reasonable precautions and innoculating your slants from good purity
cultures, directly from a freshly opened Wyeast snap-pak for example,
should hopefully eliminate any wild-yeast contributions coming from the
slant when strewaking for single colonies. The other source of potential
contamination comes when you do the streaking from the slant. Again,
reasonable precautions in media production and streaking technique should
all but eliminate contamination problems. The upshot of this is that when
you *do* get the odd bacterial or wild yeast colony ( or mutated brewing 
strain for that matter) on your plate it sticks out like a sore thumb
among the sea of uniform brewing yeast colonies and is easily avoided.    


Take care

 -Alan Meeker



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:33:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Re: basement brewing, fixing enamel

 


Hello all,

	Brian Dulisse asks about burners and fans for his 
soon-to-be-constructed basement brewery.  Last time I checked,
the Grape and Granary in Akron still had the natural gas King
Kookers for about $45 each (www.grapeandgranary.com).  The output
seems to be a bit lower with NG compared to the stories of the
propane crowd, but you can still bring 12 gallons to a boil in
a reasonable amount of time.

	Brian also asks about hoods and fans for venting his
new system.  I would like to use a hood myself, but my low
ceiling clearance makes this almost impossible.  I've gotten
by using just an exhaust fan in a window close to the burners, 
with a second fan blowing air in from a window on the opposite
wall.  So far, no problems with CO, although the usual brewing 
odors do manage to roam throughout the upstairs.

	Brian, I'm sure you'll enjoy brewing in the basement.
It's so pleasant to be able to brew or bottle without having
to chase spouses away or wash a ton of dishes.  Plus, if you
semi-automate with pumps, your brew day is generally shorter 
and easier for 10+ gallons than it was for 5 in the kitchen.
The only disadvantage, for me at least, is that 10 gallon batches
seem to discourage me from trying too many unusual styles.  I just
seem to have a harder time motivating myself to make 10 gallons of
something risky.  Maybe I just need to drink the beer faster....

	Adrian Griffin asks about repairing chipped enamel on
his brew pot.  I'm not convinced that small patches of open steel
will have much impact on flavor. I had small chips on both my enamel 
kettles before switching to converted kegs in the basement, and the
"before and after" flavors were too close for me to find a difference.
If you do want to patch it, you might try food grade silicone.  It's
rated to 400F and seems to be almost conpletely inert.  I used some
with a passivated brass washer to fix a leaky SS kettle drain, and it's
holding nicely after a lot of batches.  Good luck.


   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:58:17 -0400
From: "John A. MacLaughlin" <jam at clark.net>
Subject: GFCI & lager

Most GFCI's give very little notice when they trip.  If a GFCI cuts off
the power to your lagering refrigerator and you don't notice it and restore
the power promptly your beer may suffer.

I keep a small nightlight plugged into the other side of the GFCI so that
a quick glance tells me that all is well or something needs attention.



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:26:11 -0400
From: "Thomas Kramer" <tkramer at monad.net>
Subject: Belgium&holland

I am planing a short trip in October to Belgium & Holland, if anyone has any
thought's on places to visit, or beers not to be missed please let me know.
tom



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:36:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Laminar flow hoods - Big Bucks for small return?


In response to my post on laminar flow hoods Robert Arguello responded:

- ------------------------------
(Me)
>I've seen
>posts from people talking about building glove boxes and laminar flow
>hoods, etc.. If this is fun or helps you sleep at night more power to you
>but I believe this is total OVERKILL and hope it doesn't scare off others
>from trying to streak yeast on their countertop.

(Robert)
My experience is that some measures need to be taken when streaking petri
dishes or harvesting yeast from them. I found myself with rather frequent
instances of dishes becoming infected with various mould and or bacteria
colonies when I first started my yeast ranching career.

I found that my dishes were being infected by airborne contaminants and I
brought this situation under control only after taking some simple
precautions. Firstly, I took care to always keep the petri dish upside down
when the lid was off. Secondly, before opening any dish, I thoroughly spray
down the room with Lysol aerosol. I do this about 5 minutes beforehand.
These simple precautions have effectively prevented contaminations. You
must, of course, be certain that your growth medium is perfectly sterile or
no amount of care later on, will prevent infections.

To make things simpler, I am in the process of building a laminar flow hood.
It is a simple task, inexpensive to build, (mine will cost about $125.00),
and well worth a bit of work. It is true that a flow hood is not an absolute
necessity, but it is a simple enough project that it should not discourage
folks from taking the plunge into yeast ranching.
_________________________

Yes, contaminants will occasionaly make their way onto your plates but, as
you have pointed out, simmple precautions do much to eliminate these
problems. In addition, such contaminants are almost always easily
recognized and avoided if and when they do arise. As I said before, if you
have your heart set on buying or building your own laminar flow hood,
glove box, or even a P4 isolation facility - go for it but in my opinion
it is an uneccesary expenditure. I work in a lab and none of our culturing
of either bacteria or yeasts is done in any type of hood. In fact, all the
yeast labs I've ever seen do their streaking, etc. at the bench in
the open air and these labs are no cleaner than one's kitchen (the
portrayal of pristine, uncluttered, shiny white lab space so often seen
in movie and TV productions has virtually NO basis in reality). As to
whether $125.00 is "inexpensive" I suppose that depends on your point of
view (and your paycheck!)...

 -Alan




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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:04:32 PDT
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: Burners

Bill Asks:

In General about his noisy "jet" style burner, and how to get a "ring" 
burner.  I also have the type of burner that you have.  These type, 
although they do diffuse the flame more than a true "jet" type like the 
original cajun cookers, are still of the high pressure type, and are in 
the range of 120,000 to 180,000 BTU.  Low pressure burners which produce 
many (100+) tiny little flames from a ring shaped burners generally 
produce in the neiborhood of 35,000 BTU.  Although their output is 
lower, they are much more efficient in their heat tranfer and fuel 
consumption, so the increased time to boil is not as bad as you might 
think.  I also use two of these burners in my system. They are made by a 
company called superb, and I ordered mine for about $90.00 each from my 
local homebrew shop.  Be carefull if you mix HP and LP burners, as the 
regulators are different and not interchangeable.  

Happy Brewing.

Adam

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:56:37 EDT
From: Biggiebigg at aol.com
Subject: spactacular yeast site!

<A HREF="http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy/yeast.html">Commercial Yeast
Strains</A>

Recently I posted a question about the origins of the commercial yeast
available. This site is just full of great info for anyone looking for this
kind of info.

Jim Huskey
Salina, Kansas


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:11:45 -0500
From: Brad Plummer <big-wing at jump.net>
Subject: HERMS thoughts

Hi, folks.

I've been following the thread about HERMS.  It's one of
those things that I had thought about several years ago (as I'm sure
others had too) but never got around to doing anything about it.  I
would like to ask for some opinions about ideas I have for my garage
brewery.  

Let me start by describing what I have now:

2 10-gallon Gott coolers (1 for HLT, 1 for MT)
1 converted keg for boil

I have been doing three-tier gravity with success but am tired of
lifting near-boiling water above my head (sound familure?).  A
couple of years ago I was on a RIMS quest and purchased a fine pump. 
Temp and high-corrosive rated. I don't have the name of it right now
but  I believe it to be a 1/25 HP March.

What I would like to do now is plumb this system together similar to the
described HERMS but still using the Gott coolers and installing the HE
coil in the boil pot.  I would use the boil pot to heat the mash water
and then pump it to the Gott MT.  During the mash I would have hot water
in the boil pot for the HE coil; raising the temp and recirc as needed.
When the mash was done I would pump the hot water to the HLT Gott.  I
would then pump the sweet wort from the MT to the boil pot.  Any
additional water needed would be supplied from the HLT through the MT
via gravity.  The HE coil would remain in the boil pot during the wort
boil.  During the boil I would have cleaned the MT.  After the boil I
would put water and ice in the Gott MT and recirc through the HE coil to
provide immersion chilling; understanding that some stirring will have
to occur.  

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

Brad Plummer
Georgetown, Texas
big-wing at jump.net


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:20:19 -0400
From: "Taber, Bruce" <Bruce.Taber at nrc.ca>
Subject: famous beer quotes

A bit of nonsense to lighten the day.
     -------------------------------
He was a wise man who invented beer.
      --Plato

Work is the curse of the drinking class.
      --Oscar Wilde

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
     --Benjamin Franklin

Without question, the greatest invention in the history
of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was
also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly
as well with pizza.
      --Dave Barry

People who drink light "beer" don't like
the taste of beer; they just like to
pee a lot.
      --Capital Brewery, Middleton, WI

Give me a woman who loves beer and
I will conquer the world.
       --Kaiser Wilhelm

Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as
hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way
to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.
       --Dave Barry

I drink to make other people interesting.
      --George Jean Nathan

They who drink beer will think beer.
      --Washington Irving

All right, brain, I don't like you and you don't
like me so let's just do this
and I'll get back to killing you with beer.
        --Homer Simpson

A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even
have the decency to thank her.
         --W.C. Fields
- -------------------------------------------
Bruce Taber
Almonte, Ontario, Canada




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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:35:15 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Quiet Burner

Love my Superb Burner.  Bought it from PBS...no kickbacks etc.
http://www.pbsbeer.com/pbs/pbscat.html
nathan


Nathan L. Kanous II, Pharm.D., BCPS
Clinical Assistant Professor
School of Pharmacy
University of Wisconsin - Madison
Office Phone (608) 263-1779
Pager (608) 265-7000 #2246 (digital)


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 20:51:07 +0100
From: "Tom & Dee McConnell" <tdmc at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Storing grain

i have some of the same problems.  what I do is re-bag the grain in 
1 gal ziplock bags.  I figure on getting about 5-6 lbs per bag.  
airtight, small, quick to seal and reseal, .......................... and 
cheap.

Date: 02 Sep 1998 10:06:09 -0400
From: Christophe Frey <cfrey at ford.com>
Subject: Moisture in grains

Recently I have noticed that a few of the grain bags that I opened 
over the last six months are absorbing moisture. [snip...] I 
purchase 50-55 lbs bags, so tupper wear doesn't real ly cut it and 
lining up 8-10 garbage cans probably wouldn't be too feasible either.

Reality is that which still exists even after you stop believing in it.


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 20:51:07 +0100
From: "Tom & Dee McConnell" <tdmc at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re:  Name that grapefruit!

that was probably fuggles hops.  when you get to england, have a 
go at some bitter/ipa.  one of the prodominatnt hops is fuggles and 
guess what ............ grapefruit in your face.  Adnamms Southwold 
Bitter has won accolades from CAMRA and it has lots of 
 ............... fuggles.  from all the ales i have had in england, a fairly 
consistent characteristic has been ................. fuggles.  so, i 
would view it as a part of the style.

BTW, i just loove fuggles.




Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:24:28 -0700
From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: Name that grapefruit!

Had a pint the other day that I'd say was less than acceptable
 [snip]

Anyway, this one was named after a NW fish and was from a 
popular brewery in Northern California.  I figured it had to be good!  
The beer would have been quite good actually ... what you could 
taste of it beyond the grapefruit! The friend that was with me said 
he could smell it in the aroma, and definitely taste it quite clearly in 
the beer.  [snip]



Reality is that which still exists even after you stop believing in it.


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:42:47 -0400
From: Jonathan Edwards <jdedward at us.ibm.com>
Subject: the never ending whining about clinitest

David R. Burley, as usual, whines on and on about clinitest:

<big snip>
>Good luck in exploring the usefulness of Clinitest.

god, you must have a very sad life. who cares? don't you get it? the majority
of folks use hydrometers and are happy with them! i've been using one for 6
years, have never had bottle bombs, have alway been able to tell when my brew
was done. i make good beer. i couldn't care less about clinitest. the only
thing this thread has done for me is to show how sorry some people are.  can't
people agree that they aren't ever going to agree on this? it might be more
constructive to go argue with a concrete wall. by yourself. off of the digest.

if only you people could debate about something that really matters...ethnic
cleansing in yugoslavia, pollution, poverty, etc. maybe that would change
something..this crap about clinitest is worthless.

jonathan


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:07:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Bavarian Wheat data point


Here's another data point in the ever-confusing drama of Bavarian wheats.
I've seen several posts in the last few months from people describing
their experiences vis-a-vis obtaining the desired bannana/clove flavor
profile from Wyeast 3068, maintaining these flavors during storage, as
well as debates over the propensity of 3068 to undergo autolysis in the
bottle. Here's my experience (n=1) for what it may be worth:

I made a basic 5 gal. Bavarian Wheat from Northwest Wheat/Barley extract,
1# flaked wheat, and an ounce of noble hop. The beer came out great -lots
of nice, balanced clove and bannana character. This beer is now almost a
year old and seems to have lost none of these flavors. Nor does there
appear to be any yeasty off-flavors. I was quite pleased with the way this
beer turned out and figured that making a good Weiss beer was easy.
Then I started seeing all the posts to the contrary. Hmmmmmmmmm. So, how
to explain the descrepencies? Well, I did do a couple of unusual things.
Being a beginner (and I believe this was only my 5th or 6th batch) I
hadn't realized that pitching volume was all that important so, at about
200ml starter for the 20 L batch I was certainly way underpitched. Did
this lead to stressed yeast which then go on to produce more esters and
vinyl guiacol? I also used silica gel to clear it in the secondary several
days prior to bottling. Could this have lowered the yeast count enough
so as to prevent autolysis, if it did occur in the bottle, from being
noticeable? 

Being somewhat more experienced now I cringe when I look back on this
recipe's protocol. I do plan to reproduce this beer this season with a
much larger pitch and without the silica. It will be interesting to see
what difference this will make. One other thing, the finished beer did
carbonate OK but has very little head - unexpected for a wheat-based
extract as well as one featuring 1# of flaked wheat! I suppose the silica
may be to blame for this. 

 -Alan  


- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:48:18 -0500
From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: Is my beer going to kill me?

Hows that for a twist on the "Is my beer runined" line? Seriously, somehow
my floating thermometer broke in my chilling wort!!! Specifically, the glass
container broke, not the actual liquid thermometer, and the weights spilled
out into 80 degree wort.
I think those weights are lead shot, and I hope they weren't suspended in
some sort of toxic solution. The thermometer and most of the tube are intact
except for the loss of the weights. I left enough wort so as not to siphon
any weights into the fermenter.
Well, fermentation kicked in around two hours after pitching and was very
active. I would guess that any harmful substance would have affected the
yeast (ie. heavy metals, toxic solutions) negatively?

Could someone please let me know if I should be concerned. TIA.

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:19:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Clinitest Test

Joe suggests a method for testing Clinitest.

The key is "repeat for different worts."  I say if you repeat
for a 1.100 OG Barleywine, it will not finish at 1/4% on
the Clinitest.  I contend that adding 2# of crystal to 5gal of
your 12P wort may cause it to go over 1/4%.

I don't contest that Clinitest works (it will work for perhaps
80 or even 90% of all the recipes out there), but rather than it
is not so simple to know when it's "done."

I personally know a local homebrewer who threw out
several batches of beer because they stopped at 1.025 OG when
they started at 1.055.  His problem: Laaglander DME.  He
was measuring the SG and expecting 1.012 and getting 1.025,
so he would dump the beer after 8 weeks.

I see someone doing the same with Clinitest, waiting for 1/4%
and not getting there.  All I ask is that Dave add the fact that
some recipes can result in final readings of 1/2% or maybe even
3/4%, and I'll stop posting rebuttals.

Some people have sent me private emails asking, "why not just let
Dave have his way?" or "it's only a hobby... what's the big deal?"
My reason for posting rebuttals is because I don't want readers
to only get 80% of the story.  Dave doesn't even have to agree with
me -- if only he added "...although it is contrary to my experience,
some individuals on HBD believe that you can get Clinitest readings
between 1/4% and 3/4% in finished, high-dextrin beers..." to all his
posts that mention Clinitest, I would shut up on this subject.  Honest.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 21:19:11 -0500
From: "Luke VanSanten" <lukevs at winternet.com>
Subject: Ego

Clinitest Dave (and to some extent, AlK),

It would seem that your continuing "conversation" would be better conducted
privately. The initial information that Clinitest may (or may not) have use
as a method of determining end of ferment was presented in what seems to be
the spirit of this forum, but the continued and increasingly bitter posts
do not meet that spirit.

Luke Van Santen
lukevs at winternet.com

P.S.  Brewsters is a term refering to women that practice the art and
science of brewing - perhaps you meant to address both genders that
practice brewing.



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---