---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  GFCI / Alcohol Spray (James.Tiefenthal)
  Pewter and heading (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Bridging from Homebrewer to Brew Pub or MicroB ("Richard Scott")
  Re: Stainless Steel Choreboys (Mark Alfaro)
  Flies (Paul Niebergall)
  American Beer (William Frazier)
  Large Fermenters (follow up) ("McConnell, Guy")
  (no subject) (Ed Choromanski)
  Citric Acid levels in homebrewed sodas (Jonathan Nail)
  Redux: Spray on Sanitizer (Badger Roullett)
  Tannic (tea) taste in my beer IMBR? (Ian Smith)
  Q: Proper Yeast pitching temps / testing malt quality ("Andrew T. Lynch")
  Alcohol as a sanitizer..Vodka/Grain alcohol ("Victor Farren")
  Waterproofing those Digital Meat Thermometers ("Marc and Maureen Arseneau")
  RE: Subject: 240V GFI ("C.D. Pritchard")
  RE:Kolsch ("Marc Battreall")
  HERMS coil design data (Dana Edgell)
  Big carboys/demijohns break easily (Stuart Anderson)
  Ginger....at the beginning or end of the boil? (LEAVITDG)
  Spam & Ale in a lead pan. (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  Pilsner Urquell question (water) (LEAVITDG)
  RE:Spary on Sanitizer (Steve Potter)
  Kentucky Common (Bradd Wheeler)
  Son of fruit fly bitter (Brian Pickerill)
  Re: first wort hopping/Munich malt haze (David Kerr)
  Priming Lagers & Pumpkins... (Lou.Heavner)
  Re: Cereal Mashes and Kentucky Common Beer (Delano DuGarm)
  source for CO2 cylinders (Scott Murman)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:55:18 -0400
From: James.Tiefenthal at rossnutrition.com
Subject: GFCI / Alcohol Spray


A. J. deLange writes:

<The GND wire in a biphase (240 volt) hookup could well serve as a ground
<fault indicator because when everything is normal no current will flow
<through it unless the appliance manufacturer has tapped A to GND or B to
<GND for control circuits, pilot lamps or anything else which causes an
<inbalance.  I can't find 220V GFI outlets in the Grainger catalog but
<they may exist and be available from electrical supply outfits. To rig a
<biphase circuit with GFI would require taking several turns of the
<ground wire around a core and then placing a second winding on the same
<core. The voltage across this second winding will be proportional to the
<imbalance current and can be measured by various means.

<Note that GFI is only effective if the ground fault is to the ground
<wire, GND in my biphase sketch, the green wire in a 120V circuit, which
<is tied to the frame of the appliance being protected. If the fault
<current flows through another path to ground (a trail of liquid to a
<drainpipe, for example), it won't be detected. It's hard to immagine
<this happening in properly designed gear.

I may have missed A.J.'s true point, but will still add my $.02. ...........

Measuring the current on the ground wire is a never a good way to detect
electrical problems.
The issue arises when current finds a new return path (through you) to ground.
This new path
may never make it back to the ground wire you are monitoring but find a new
path via a grounded
 water pipe or something else.  A GFCI device does not measure the current
flowing on the ground
line to determine when there is a current imbalance (and for good reason).  The
device compares the
current flowing on each leg (hot and return) and if there is any difference the
switch will activate (open).
The switch does not know the actual return path (ground wire, you to a water
pipe, or that water stream
from the appliance to a drainpipe), it only knows that the amount of current
delivered is not being returned
and this is a bad thing.  So, measuring the current on the ground leg will not
save you when you dip your
SS spoon into your mash that is electrically (and thermally) "hot" if your
standing in a little spilled water
 leading to that grounded drainpipe.

You may ask" How can the appliance be "Hot" if is grounded?".  The ground wire
does have some amount
of electrical resistance and can provide a voltage drop between the appliance
and earth ground.  Also consider
poor or old connections to the apppliance that can add significant resistance
and increase the voltage potential
between it and ground.  Remember, the current will take the path of least
resistance.

Also, measuring the current on the ground leg as you have described will
indicate changes in current flow, not provide
a steady state RMS voltage unless the current is continuously changing,
probably not the case.  If the current
ramped up slowly, it may never be detected on the induction pick up described.

___________

I agree with Herb Bressler on the 70% alcohol/ water mix for a spray
sanitizer.  I keep this mixture in a spray bottle
and use it to sanitize counter tops before setting sanitized parts on it as
well as other items.  I have been told that contact time
for alcohol may be an issue?  Also not to use 100% alcohol?  Not sure, or at
least don't remember why; Help me out Herb.

Jim Tiefenthal
Cowlumbus,Oh


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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:09:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Pewter and heading


Matthew Harper wrote:


Pewter:

I too have a couple of pewter drinking vessels, having verified the
lack of lead presence upon receipt.  I don't use them too often though
because when I do there is a significant amount of head created on
pouring the brew. I'm talking about half the beer turning into foam here,
not just a lot of head.  Same pour into a glass produces far less.
To prevent the foaming I have tried:  chilling the mug, slightly warming it,
rinsing it with cold water right before (leaving wet) and a couple of other
stunts. all to no avail, regardless of the beer being poured, commercial or
homebrew.

I can't be the only one this happens to (I hope I  hope I hope...)
Any ideas???   Any ideas at all???  I've *love* to use them on a
regular basis...
_____________________________

As I remember pewter has a fairly rough texture and this may present a
large number of nucleation sites for bubble formation compared to the
inner surface of your glass which is fairly smooth. Rough spots promote
the formation of bubbles. When you see streams of bubbles originating from
the walls of a glass there is bound to be some type of imperfection at
the point of origin. You can demonstrate this if you want to ruin a glass
by taking a metal tool and making a scratch on the inner surface. Pour in
a beer or soda and you'll see bubbles initiating all along the length of
the scratch. How to stop it? I don't see how you can unless you either
coat the inside so as to make it smooth (I suppose you could try forming a
thin layer of ice in there using your freezer). Cooling should help keep
the gas in solution somewhat but you've already tried this although, I
believe if you  *froze*  the pewter you may actually make things worse as
now when you pour in the beer it may immediately form microcrystals when
it contacts the frozen metal and these ice crystals can themselves act as
potent nucleators but then again this is just speculation. I'd say your
best bet is to chill the beer itself down low to maximize gas solubility
then pour carefully into a well chilled (not freezing temps) mug. Give
this a try. Of course the low temp may be a sub-optimal serving temp for
your beer but one does have to make compromises at times... 

 -Alan Meeker




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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:09:45 -0500
From: "Richard Scott" <rscott57 at flash.net>
Subject: Bridging from Homebrewer to Brew Pub or MicroB

Fellow Homebrewers:

I am doing the mental & financial gymnastics of buying a brew pub or a
microbrewery.  Texas has some unusual laws & rules, but I realize that there
are others who have considered these matters.  Can someone refer me to a
preliminary source for these types of brewing and liquor laws (before I make
some lawyer rich)?  A major ice cream company in Texas (Blue Bell) has a
wonderful marketing motto that sums up how I want to run a brew pub:
Eat/Drink all we can & sell the rest.

Seems like a brew pub could/should bottle & market all the production that
doesn't sell from the tap  at  the pub, but there are likely legal or
operational barriers.  The economics of the fixed costs of a homebrewer
(equipment & marriage) are magnified in a larger facility.  Looks like you
want the kettle going as often as possible & line up the fermentation tanks
to handle the through-put.  I suspect that many a homebrewer has thought
about these matters, and some have made the move to becoming a "for
(monetary) profit" brewer.

Many thanks!
Richard Scott
Coppell, TX
private email is welcome



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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:35:59 -0700
From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Choreboys




Peter Calinsky writes:

I was walking through Sears Hardware the other day.  In the section where
they have the laundry supplies.  I saw what they call "lint traps".  They
look just like Choreboys but appear to be stainless steel.  Two for $1.99.



I use these "lint traps" in my RIMS with great success. My mash/lauter tun
is an inverted 1/2bbl. Sankey keg with the bottom cut out. The hole in the
keg where the draw tube goes is the drain to my pump inlet. I use a
perforated stainless false bottom and place a stainless "lint trap" rolled
up like a sock, into the center drain hole, under the false bottom. The
"lint trap" fits snugly and prevents the grain that gets past the false
bottom from entering the pump. In my boil kettle, I use a "lint trap" at
the end of the siphon tube to keep hop particles out of my chiller. The
"lint traps" come coated with a light oil. I wash them thoroughly with
unscented dishwashing liquid and plenty of hot water before use. The "lint
traps" are durable and stand up well to mash and boil temperatures and are
a bargain at about a buck each.

Mark Alfaro 



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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:38:22 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Flies

Alan Keith Meeker writes:

>How's this for an extreme -
>say ther's only ONE bacterial cell on that fruit fly and it takes 30 min
>for the bacteria to divide. In 30 minutes you have 2 cells which then
>divide and 30 minutes later you have 4 cells, then 8,16,32,etc... If this
>started in your primary fermenter then by next morning you already
>have  1 billion bacteria! (The wonders of exponential/logarithmic
>growth). At this rate by the end of the day you'd have over a trillion
>cells per mililiter though they'd probably exhaust the food supply long
>before they ever got this dense. 

Your are absolutely right bacteria will grow exponentially, IF left
on there own.  Anyone can observe this by inoculating some
sterile media with bacteria and watching it grow.  The problem
is that our home brew is not a petri dish in a lab.  And therein
lies the true contradiction.  Everybody is so proud of the fact
that they know a single bacterium can multiply to 1 million (or
trillion) in a very fast time period, but it rarely happens that way
in home brew. Our own batches of beer are almost always
contaminated with way more than a single bacterium.  Yet
seldom does a batch of beer get contaminated enough to cause
off-flavors, or worse (beer, say hi to Mr. Drain).  Why is that?

I would like to thank Mr. Meeker for answering that very question:

>Now, we aren't working under sterile conditions by any
>means in our homebrew setups so of course there are
>bacteria getting into our beer all the time, and many more than
>one cell. So why don't all our batches turn to bacterial soup? 
>Luckily for us yeast growth does indeed discourage the
>growth of bacteria that would be detrimental to our beer. A number of
>characteristics of yeast growth conspire to help us out. First, yeast do
>rapidly consume the available oxygen thus keeping those bacteria that
>do require oxygen to live (aerobes) in check - a big plus! Second,
>actively metabolizing yeast quickly lower the pH of the wort which
>tends to inhibit the growth of many types of bacteria. Third, brewer's
>yeast produce chemicals- notably ethanol - that are toxic to many
>bacterial species. Lastly, if you pitch enough yeast they can eat up all
>the nutritional "goodies" in the wort before the bacteria can get a
>foothold. Personally, I believe this latter consideration is probably much
>less important than the first three for the reasons discussed in the
>preceeding paragraph. My fermentations certainly take a good 2-4 days
>to go mostly to completion - more than enough time for any bacterial
>contaminant to have taken over the beer.
 
The first paragraph tells the old familiar story about exponential
bacterial growth.  This is something we as home brewers should
keep in mind, but do not let it spoil you brew day (or your beer - HA!). 
The second paragraph tells the real story.
Thanks for pointing this out.

Brew on, 

Paul Niebergall
(o.k., $0.50 for a stopper, but that is my final offer)


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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:47:19 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: American Beer

Pat McMackin writes in the November, 1998 issue of Brew Your Own
that American beers, brewed in the past, were not really as good
as we might imagine.  That may be but I fondly remember the Pabst
Blue Ribbon my father drank in the late 1950s as being a full-
bodied, hoppy drink with a real "beer" flavor.  I really believe
these American beers produced 30 to 40 yrs ago were pretty good
brews with a lot more flavor than todays versions.

I'm looking for an all-grain recipe that might come close to the
Pabst brew of the past. In particular the grain bill, hop varities
and amounts (please indicate IBU calculation method or give HBUs)
and mash temperatures.

Any help will be appreciated.

Bill Frazier, Olathe, KS



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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:52:56 -0600
From: "McConnell, Guy" <GuyM at Exabyte.COM>
Subject: Large Fermenters (follow up)

As a follow up to my post of yesterday, here is the information I promised:

Alternative Beverage  800--365-2739

15 gallon glass Demi-John  $47.95

As I recall, these come in a plastic "basket" with handles.  FYI, they weigh
30 lbs.

Guy McConnell /// Loveland, CO /// guym at exabyte.com
"And the beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad, so I had one for dessert..."



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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:46:13 +0000
From: Ed Choromanski <choroman at voicenet.com>
Subject: (no subject)

Hi All:

I need to help.  I have read that using Rolled Oats (Quaker Quick Oats) in my
mash can add a silky smoothness to my brew so I am going to give this a try in
my next brew (an English Best Bitter).

My question is when do I add the Oats to my mash??


I have added the recipe and mash schedule below if needed.

Thanks in advance,
Ed Choromanski


0.50 lbs. Rolled Oats
7.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row)
0.13 lbs. Roasted Barley Malt
0.50 lbs. Cane Sugar0
1.25 oz.  Fuggle   5.50%     60 min.
0.75 oz.  Goldings - E.K.   6.40%     30 min.
0.50 oz.  Styrian Goldings    5.00%     15 min.
WYeast 1028 London Ale Yeast

Mash Schedule

Step           Time   Temp             Ratio
- ---------------------------------------------
Enzyme Prep Rest  30min  104F  Infuse   0.71
Protien Rest   15min  125F Infuse 0.94
Beta Amylase Rest 30min  144F  Infuse   1.28
Alpha Amylase Rest   20min 158F   Direct   
Mash Out 10min 172F  Direct


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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:14:27 -0700
From: Jonathan Nail <jnail at dvdexpress.com>
Subject: Citric Acid levels in homebrewed sodas

Greetings Fellow Hop Heads...

And now for something a wee bit different.  I know this is a bit off
topic, but hopefully someone can help...

I recently purchased a book on brewing homemade sodas and such. Really
good book, yadda-yadda-yadda. Made the vanilla creme soda in there and
was surprised to find my soda tasting like bland, CINNAMON-vanilla creme
soda that leaves a dull aftertaste. And there is no "crisp" life to it.
I have solved the cinnamon bit, don't put cinnamon in... hee hee. But I
want to add citric acid to give it life and bite, kind of like every
other creme soda out there. I can pick up citric acid at any
homebrew/winemaking store, no prob. But how much to use?

I brew sodas in batches of 1gal (to start) and if it is good, I will
then make a 5 gal version. How would I calculate the amount of citric
acid to add? I have a theory..

Would I be able to take my favorite brand of creme soda, do an acid test
on it to measure the amount of acid present in say a liter of the soda,
and then add citric acid to my homebrewed batch of soda to the same
level. Question: How do I calculate the levels of acid and the amount I
will need to add to my batch of soda? (algebra is squeaking its way into
this, damn!)

Does anyone know of an equation? Or does anyone have an easier way? How
much citric acid to add to a one gallon batch of creme soda??? Thanks.

Cheers,

Jonathan 



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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:10:55 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Redux: Spray on Sanitizer


"Let me esplain, no that would take too long, Let me sum up.."
 - Inigo Montoya, Princess Bride

Here are the results of the private emails on Spray on Sanitizer...

most people seemed to recomend 70/30 mix of EToH (Ethanol) and Water.

1 person recomended "1/20th ounce per quart concentration (1 oz per 5 gal)of
star-san."
1 person recomended Everclear.

Thanks for all the great replies!!

***************************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger
Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven

 "It had to be a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability to
use language that makes him the dominant species on the planet. That  may
be. But I think there's one other thing that separates us from animals. We
aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners."       --Jeff Stilson



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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:20:57 -0600
From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com>
Subject: Tannic (tea) taste in my beer IMBR?


I just kegged an IPA and it has a taste like weak tea - kinda tannic. It 
was OK during the secondary and tasted great. I dry hopped so it might be 
the hops. But could it be an infection? The flavor seems to be volatile in 
that after 5 minutes in a glass it tends to dissipate. Can anyone out there 
explain what this is and how to avoid it in future?

Thanks

Ian Smith




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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:22:53 -0700
From: "Andrew T. Lynch" <drew at surefirev.com>
Subject: Q: Proper Yeast pitching temps / testing malt quality


  I have been brewing for a long time with good success, pitching at
about 80F, and then fermenting at ambient (uncontrolled) temperatures.
I recently purchased a Johnson controls fridge controller in hopes of
gaining more control over this portion of the process.  My question
is, now that I have more control, how should I control it?  After
using my combination of both immersion and counterflow chillers, my
final wort temp is 80F.  The yeast I am using calls for a 60F
fermentation temperature.  Would I be better off pitching at 80F, then
cooling to 60F, or cooling to 60F before pitching?

- ----

  After readin Al Korzonas' post from Oct 7, I am thinking that one of
the problems I have experience occasionally, namely metallic flavor,
could be a result of old malt.  I have had a tendency to buy big bags
of crushed malt, and use it over a longer than optimal period of time.
Now that I am a father, I don't buy the large bags anymore, but I
don't always brew as soon as I originally intended.  How can I tell if
the malt I have should be discarded?  Are there steps I can take to
lessen the risk of getting the metallic flavor from malt of
questionable age?

Thanks,
  Drew

- -- 
Andrew T. Lynch, Chief Zymurgist, SureFire Verification (408)374-4100 x301


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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:19:01 -0400
From: "Victor Farren" <vfarren at smtp.cdie.org>
Subject: Alcohol as a sanitizer..Vodka/Grain alcohol

Some people use Vodka, I buy pure grain alcohol and dilute w/ water.  A 
little bit goes a long way.

Victor Farren


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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:31:17 +0000
From: "Marc and Maureen Arseneau" <maureena at quartz.nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Waterproofing those Digital Meat Thermometers

> From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
> Subject: Re: Polder Thermoprobes

> Your theory is correct Duff. These probes are not sealed in any way beyond
> the crimp. The woven stainless steel mesh covering the lead is actually one
> of the conducters for the thermistor. Liquid getting past the crimp enters
> the body of the probe and creates havoc. The fix is to allow to dry for a
> number of days or you can force dry in a medium oven. PREVENTION: Starting 1
> inch beyond the crimp and extending 12 inches along the wire, liberally coat
> the stainless mesh with silicon sealant, (the clear aquarium grade). Make
> the coating as smooth as possible. Allow to cure for a day or so then cover
> the silicon with shrink tubing. After this is accomplished the probe can be
> completely immersed without trouble.

I use one of these thermometers for all my mashing needs.  My 
solution was to thread the probe into some Tygon tubing.  The 
interface where the Tygon "sheath" ended on the probe was sealed with 
Silicon.  Hasn't failed yet.

 By the way, allowing an already wet probe to dry for a few days 
won't work, you have to put the probe into the oven to vaporize any 
entrained liquid.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
"OTOH, you have different fingers"
 - Steven Wright


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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 20:18:59
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: RE: Subject: 240V GFI

Ronald posted in 2848:
>I am using plastic containers for my HLT and my kettle, so I haven't worried
>about grounding, however, when I switch to metal kegs, I will be very
>concerned about grounding.  

I use plastic pails for the RIMS tun, boiler and HLT and, even with a GFCI,
I'm concerned about grounding since water and wort are somewhat conductive.
 For the boiler and HLT, I made grounding eye type lugs for my heater
elements from split-open and pounded flat copper pipe.  It fits between the
rubber washer and the metal hex head on the heater element.  

A drawing is at: http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/boiler.htm




c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:54:55 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: RE:Kolsch



Hello All,

Charley Burns asks about Wyeast 2565 Kolsch Yeast behavior in HBD 2849:

>I pitched a 1 quart starter into 5 gallons of Alt (always experimenting)  at 
>1.050. After 2 weeks  at  60-62F its only down to 1.024. Still bubbling away a
>about 4 glubs per minute. I raised it to 70F to see if it would speed up.
>Still getting 4 glubs per minute. Is this typical of this yeast?

I brewed a Kolsch a few months back using this yeast and was somewhat
befuddled by the same characteristics that Charley speaks of but was
extremely pleased with the resultant brew it produced. Obviously so were the
judges at the AHA Regional competition because it won first place in it's
class. Here are some stats from my brewing logbook:

Ten pound grain bill made up of Pilsner, Pale 2 Row, Vienna, and a tad of
Wheat. It was a five gallon batch with an OG of 1.047 and fermented in a six
gallon carboy for the primary. The yeast starter was stepped up from the
original Wyeast pack to 800 ml in two 400 ml stages. (Close to a quart).
Pitched into the wort at 70F and lowered the temp to 56-58F over the next
two days and held it there for 12 days total. After twelve days the beer was
still extremely cloudy but not showing the obvious signs of a vigorous
ferment. This is about the same time as you stated that yours has been in
the primary so I am not sure why you have not had the reduction in SG that I
did. A hydrometer sampling indicated that the SG on mine was 1.009 so I
racked it to a Corny keg, lowered the temperature to 46F and held it there
for 14 more days. The Cornie that I use for a secondary is one that I
twisted off the gas in fitting by accident so I bored the remaining hole out
smooth and fit an airlock in it with a small piece of tubing. Works pretty
good. After two weeks of little to no airlock activity another SG check read
1.006 and I assumed it to be the terminal gravity (gosh if I only knew about
Clinitest back then and didn't have to ASSUME or depend on a hydrometer
maybe it would have won at the National level!)  (sorry, couldn't resist
that one!!) so I primed it, fined it with 2 teaspoons of gelatin, and
bottled it. The beer was still pretty cloudy at bottling time even before I
roused in the priming sugar. I stored the bottles in the refrigerator at
about 44F for a few weeks before I sent them off to the Nationals and they
had cleared by then.

Here are some of the comments from the judges: BJCP #1 Comments: Aroma hops
OK. Color OK, overcarbonated, light haze OK. Hop flavor a tad much for
style. A tad full on the mouthfeel. Nice beer. Maybe a little lower OG & cut
back on the late hopping. Scored 39
BJCP #2 Comments: Aroma appropriate for style. Nice light color. Good
carbonation, little haze. Some wheat character evident. No fruity esters.
Body OK for style. Nice beer, a little light. Score 39.

Notice that both of them commented on the carbonation level and slight haze,
but disagreed on the body. This would indicate that this yeast is indeed a
low flocculator as per the Wyeast stat sheet. Granted, neither one of us
pitched what is considered to be an enormous yeast starter, but the
characteristics of this yeast seem to be as advertised. In my case the yeast
finally did settle in the bottles a few weeks later and it was as clear as
any American commercial pilsner on the market (barring the bottom cake of
course.)

I was extremely pleased with the flavor profile of this yeast as was
everyone that sampled this brew that I made with it. The beer had all the
visual appeal of a Bud with a snow white Guinness head and all the flavor
attributes of a light fruity ale. It is truly a hybrid/mixed yeast and I am
looking forward to brewing with it again soon. I have a few slants of it in
my yeast bank.

I know this was long winded but to answer your question, yes, it is typical
of this yeast. My suggestion to you would be to wait it out a few more weeks
in a secondary at 45-50F and see what happens. The higher temp you raised it
to might favor production of some undesirable flavor compounds and I suspect
it won't have the clean flavor profile you are probably shooting for (an
assumption on my part). Lower the temp back within the range suggested by
Wyeast. This yeast's fermentation profile is has a wide range thereby making
it predictable. The beer will clear eventually after you fine it I promise.

Have a hoppy day!

Marc

=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:13:15 -0800
From: edgell at cari.net (Dana Edgell)
Subject: HERMS coil design data


A short while ago there was some discussion on the difficulty of getting
the heat transfer in a HERMs just right. The coil design is supposed to be
very important but there were few specifics given. Can any of you HERMs
users out there tell me specifically what works for you

 i.e. coil length and diameter, flow rate, temperature of the hot water
tank, increase in wort temperature between the coil intake & outlet, and
the resultant rate of temperature increase in the mash.

Private email would be good so that I could tabulate and summarize the info
for posting to the HBD.

Thanks,
Dana

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell                         edgell at quantum-net.com
2939 Cowley Way #G         http://www.quantum-net.com/edge_ale
San Diego, CA 92117           (619) 276-7644




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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:39:36 -0700
From: Stuart Anderson <rsda at istar.ca>
Subject: Big carboys/demijohns break easily

A word of warning to anyone planning to use demijohns for brewing. I was
given a couple of freebies and realising that they were VERY thin was ultra
cautious in handling them. I used them as primaries successfully - no need
for a blow-off hose! After I racked to kegs I started to clean them up.
Naturally you can't lift a full one ....54l = 54k = 120 lbs. But after
siphoning out 2/3 I figured I could lift it up and dump out the rest. Some
ale angel must have whispered "put your big work gloves on" because the
demijohn shattered in my hands and I was left holding the neck and looking
at about 60 lethal looking shards. Keeping the plastic casing on probably
would have prevented this but it's tough to clean with the big brush when
you can't see what you're cleaning. 

Stuart
Brewing in Beautiful British Columbia
Stuart Anderson


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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 05:24:30 -0500 (EST)
From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: Ginger....at the beginning or end of the boil?

I am toying with the idea of trying a Ginger beer.  I have read Papazian's
statement (early in his JOY) stating that it should be added during the 
last 10/15 minutes; but then he goes on with several recipes later in the
book and adds it at the beginning of the boil!
Al Korzonas, in HBVI, states at the end, and to slice rather than grate. I
am inclined to go with Al on this one...but anyone have any thoughts?
 ...Darrell
<still trying to get caught up>


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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 07:23:32 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: Spam & Ale in a lead pan.

Most info has said the same thing on the spam issue.  Considering what I
pay for email, I'll just use my delete key.  (Do I see a pattern here?
8-)
  As far as Rushdie supporter hunters go, true Moslems  don't drink
alchohol, it's against their religion.  If they're reading the HBD, we
have more to worry about than you think.
  As far as lead and Romans, I thought I said a part of their downfall,
as in a contributing factor, not the main reason.  I no longer have my
original post, so someone will correct me if I'm wrong.  By the way, was
their lifespan only in to the 30's due to old age, health problems, or
um, premature death or 'accidents'?
  A "why can't we all just get along" sidenote-  I've found from recent
personal experience that it may be best to wait a couple hours before
sending posts regarding heated issues, rereading said post and original
read comments before sending it off to the HBD.  If you still feel the
same way after that time, by all means, send it.  I recently pulled a
sent post, and feel much better for it.  If I was not lucky enough to
pull it in time,  I would have not liked the results of my actions.  Of
course, this probably will also lessen my personal e-mail input (oh well,
I still have spam) and allow more room for trivial stuff on the HBD, like
brewing matters. 8^)  8^).  
  Unsolicited plug- If you're ever in Atlantic City, check out the Tun
Tavern.  A fine brewpub that only sells their own beer, and they have
excellant food and very good service.  Samplers available.  However, if
you think you might want take-out, bring your own growler, as theirs is
clear glass.  Hopefully they allow this.  They also occasionally have
brewer's nights.  E-mail me for more info if interested.  Usual
disclaimers apply.
Wassail, 

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 07:58:03 -0500 (EST)
From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: Pilsner Urquell question (water)

Date sent:  16-OCT-1998 07:54:51 

I was flippin through the CLONE BREWS and noticed their recipe for Pilsner 
Urquell.  It looks like what I've heard elsewhere, except that they don't 
mention the water.  Isn't the water in Pilsen rather soft, and shouldn't 
this be kept in mind?

If you wanted to make a 6 gal batch, could you use 5 gal distilled water 
and one gallon regular water?

 ...Darrell
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/
_/Darrell Leavitt                              _/
_/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/
_/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu   _/
_/AX25 : n2ixl  at  kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa            _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 07:16:22 -0500
From: Steve Potter <spotter at meriter.com>
Subject: RE:Spary on Sanitizer

In answering Badger's question about spray on sanitizers Alk sez,
 "Peracetic acid is a possibility, but I don't know it's contact time.  Can
someone who has that sanitation textbook look it up?

Peracetic acid will kill gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria, fungi,
and yeasts in 5 minutes or less at less than 100 ppm.  In the presence of
organic material, 200 to 500 ppm is required.

The book is "Disinfection, Sterilization, and Preservation" by Seymour S.
Block.

Steve Potter
Madison, WI


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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:27:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bradd Wheeler <braddw at rounder.com>
Subject: Kentucky Common



Bill Coleman Writes ..

>Some time ago, I picket up Randy Mosher's book (I believe it
>is called Homebrewer's Companion, but since I'm at work, I
>can't verify that) and in it, in a list of beer styles, he included
>a style called "Kentucky Common," supposedly a old-style of
>beer made in Kentucky, using a sour mash.

>This is the only reference I've ever seen for this style. Does anyone

>out there have any additional information on it? Was it
>made commercially? If so, when? What companies made it,
>what did it taste like? Anything along those lines would be
>interesting to me.


The guy you want to get hold of is David Pierce.  He is the Head Brewer at
the Bluegrass Brewing Co. in Louisville, Kentucky. I worked with him for a
week a couple of years ago while training to work on another brewery from
the same manufacturer.

He's an excellent brewer and has been brewing this style for quite a
while.

Their web page also has a link to the following page, check it out.

http://www.fossils.org/wtdtext/066/combeer.html



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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:40:49 -0600
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: Son of fruit fly bitter

"Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil> said:

>the beer was pitched sunday at 4 pm.  it's gone past high krausen and is
>going to be ready to rack this weekend, at which point i will probably make
>a decision on whether to use the sediment for the beer i'm brewing saturday.
>this will again be based on nothing but sensory analysis (taste the green
>beer).

Mark, I really doubt that you will have a noticable problem, but if any
thing really weird happens, be sure to get to your keyboard before it's too
late.

If we get a message that says, "Help me, Helllllllp meeeeeee" I think we'll
all know that something has gone horribly wrong.

- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie Malt Mashers, Muncie, IN




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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:47:29 -0400
From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: Re: first wort hopping/Munich malt haze

Jim Graham comments:

> I'm not a professional brewer, but I am learning from several...and from
> several advanced homebrewers who are much more experienced than I am, and
> the general consensus around here seems to be:
> 
>    1) First wort hopping doesn't do much for flavor or aroma except
>       with noble hops

I've FWH'd my latest IPA with Cascade and Chinook (2 oz each in 10
gals!), with no late kettle additions and 2 oz Cascade dryhopped (no
discernable aroma as I racked to the secondary).  I'm not a judge,
but I know hop flavor when I taste it, and there's plenty there.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Data point regarding Munich malt and chill haze:
My split batch Altbier/Sticke (90% Light Munich) was mashed in
 at 135F, held 15 minutes, infused to 141F, held for 15 min, then
direct heated to 154F over 15 minutes and held until sacc.
completed.  Big chill haze - brilliantly clear until chilled.  I'll
try a straight infusion  at 154F next time.

Now that Dave B is silent regarding C********, perhaps we can
revisit that 122F rest?

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Good news that e.e. rolfe has found his shift key, better news that
he's decided to dust off all of that stainless and brew again!  The
Boston area micro/BP scene owes him big time - a true brew
pioneer...

Dave Kerr   Needham, MA    "Be good and you will be lonely"  - Mark
Twain


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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:25:54 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: Priming Lagers & Pumpkins...

     Greetings,

     I have convinced myself I need to start kegging, at least if I want to
     make lagers.  Here is a bonehead thing you should probably try to
     avoid.  I fermented and lagered a CAP.  It was very clear when I
     bottled and my lagers always seem to take a long time to bottle
     condition.  So when I bottled, I added the priming sugar (boiled
     syrup) to my bottling bucket as usual and started racking the beer
     from the carboy it had been lagering in.  Here is where I modified my
     normal procedure.  I had smacked a pack of yeast the day before and it
     was fully swollen.  I added it to ensure enough yeast to quickly
     carbonate the bottles.  Well the syrup was hot and the beer was cold.
     After getting the siphon going, I added the yeast.  Unfortunately, I
     thought I had a good siphon, but somehow a bubble had gotten in the
     siphon and I lost it.  So the yeast hit a solution that was probably
     too hot!  Negligent yeasticide.  I restarted the siphon as quickly as
     possible and completed racking to the bottling bucket.  Then I bottled
     as usual.  Well it is 3 weeks later and virtually no sediment or
     carbonation.  The beer is also still sweet.  It has been at 50 Deg F
     since it was bottled.  I'm going to try taking it to room temp and see
     if it will take off.  The good news is that it must not be badly
     infected or I would expect something to be fermenting the priming
     sugar.  And finally a question.  In addition to being pretty sweet,
     the beer seems to have a winey almost chardonney like flavor.  Would
     this be a sign of oxidation during lagering?  I lagered in a 6 gal
     carboy even though it was a 5 gal batch.  I racked a little late, so
     there was little fermentation going on in the carboy to sweep out
     oxygen.  Another good reason to start kegging and having CO2 around
     for purging things like secondaries.  Anybody care to comment?

     This is a wee bit off topic, but I would like to carve my pumpkin
     instead of mashing or fermenting it.  Anybody ever carve a pumpkin
     with some sort of brewing or beer related design they'd be willing to
     share?  I carve freehand, but a picture or sketch would be helpful.

     Cheers,

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX


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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:26:33 -0400
From: Delano DuGarm <dugarm at mnsinc.com>
Subject: Re: Cereal Mashes and Kentucky Common Beer

Michel J. Brown wrote:

> I've a small question on cereal mashing. Do you really *need* to mash
> with a small (~10-15% of the grist) minimash, or can you simply add
> enzymes to the cereal, and saccharify as usual? It would appear that
> there would be no difference, but what the heck do I know ;^) Anybody
> ever try this? I'll be making Steem (tm) beer rsn, and follow-up with
a
> CAP (Logger lager), and wanted to do a corn grits cereal mash for the
> CAP. TTYAL, God Bless, ands ILBCNU!

Hmm.  I wouldn't think that adding amylase would help, unless you
boiled the corn grits.  Remember, the point of boiling the grits is to
gelatinize the starches.  Your main mash will have plenty of amylase
to convert the starch to fermentables.  I know that some people
say you can just boil corn grits without doing a cereal mash, but I've
had to spend hours cleaning burned-on grits every time I've tried it.
I'd either do a cereal mash or use flaked corn.

Bill Coleman writes:

> he included
> a style called "Kentucky Common," supposedly a old-style of
> beer made in Kentucky, using a sour mash.
>
> This is the only reference I've ever seen for this style. Does anyone
> out there have any additional information on it? Was it
> made commercially? If so, when?

The locus classicus for this style is Wahl and Henius, "American
Handybook of
Brewing, Malting, and Auxiliary Trades.  In the third edition (Chicago,
1908),
the information is on pp. 1276-7.  The beer was brewed commercially
mostly
around Louisville, Kentucky.  The grain bill was pale malt and 25-35%
corn,
either grits, meal or flakes, with sugar coloring added to make it
"dark, . . .
about the same as that of average Bavarian beers." Hopping is low, 1/4-
3/4 lb. per barrel.  Later Wahl and Henius write that "the beer should
possess
a pronounced malt flavor, be full to the palate, of somewhat sweet
taste,
and mild in character.  Besides these properties as to taste, the
beer should ahve a slight but characteristic bacteria taste and flavor."

I would think that you'd get this flavor (which I think means "sour") by

doing an overnight sour mash, but at that time the brewers used an
infected yeast culture: "the yeast should contain about 2 per cent of
such bacteria (20 bacteria per 1,000 yeast cells)."

I've heard of brewpubs in Tennessee and/or Kentucky brewing this
style.  As far as homebrewing, didn't Ray Daniels write an article
about brewing Kentucky Common for an AHA Convention years
ago?

Me, I'll stick to swankey, the anise-flavored low alcohol beer once
popular in western Pennsylvania.

Delano "Adjunct Boy" DuGarm
Arlington, VA





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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: source for CO2 cylinders


Recently I asked about sources for CO2 cylinders.  I was quickly
overrun with responses and had no hope of thanking everyone
individually.  Thanks everyone for providing much useful info.  I'll
try to summarize some of what I gathered.

Interestingly, no-one suggested buying CO2 tanks from your local HB
shop.  I plan on getting my kegs and fittings there (keeps him in
business), but the tank and gauges elsewhere.  Obviously, I'm not
alone. 

There seems to be two options for CO2 tanks; renting and buying.  Both
seem to be handled either by a welding supply house or the local fire
department.  When renting, you pay a deposit, and they simply exchange
tanks when you come in, whereas you can buy your tank and have them
fill it for you, but then you are responsible for maintaining it's
certification.  No-one really had a definitive answer on the time
between tank certification.  I got anywhere from 5-10 years.  Cost of
filling seems to range from about US $8-12 depending on volumes and
sources, etc.

Gauges were also split between those recommending dual gauges, and
those who said a single is all you really need.  I suppose it will
come down to a cost vs. utility issue for most of us.

A few people surmised correctly that when I was concerned about
safety, what I meant was gauge cages and the like, not leaks (would a
leaky CO2 tank cause my plants to sprout so vigorously that they
overtake my apt?).  Maybe because I work at NASA, and understand the
energy stored in one of these babies and what a nice rocket it would
make, or maybe just because I know how clumsy I am, but the idea of
accidently "knocking the top off" concerns me.  I must admit, I've
only seen gauge cages on larger welding tanks.  How much of an
inconvenience is it, and do they even make cages for smaller tanks (5
 - 15lb. range)?

 -SM-


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---