---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Yeast Questions ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Re: Mash in space? ("Ludwig's")
  Canning of wort ("Steinkamps")
  sterilization and co2 kegging (bs)
  Re: Mash in space? pepper experiment ("Ludwig's")
  Canned as a starter... (pbabcock)
  Pumps (DSchaff135)
  You say lager, I say lay-ger (Brian Pickerill)
  Roggenbier ("Timmons, Frank")
  coarse isinglass (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Re: mounting a thermometer in a SS pot? (Al Korzonas)
  Fluid Flow... (Al Korzonas)
  the great pepper experiment (Scott Murman)
  corks and campden tablets (Al Korzonas)
  Wyeast 2308 tips? (Dan Cole)
  Just Hops - Still in Business???? (Drew)
  Hops Toxicity in Dogs (Fred)
  Badger Beer (redux) (Rick Olivo)
  fixing flat beer (Hmbrwrpete)
  Condensation buildup in chest freezer ("Raymond C. Steinhart")
  I was rejected the first time because I didn't have a subject line...! ("Marc Fries")
  Site glass (BrwrOfBeer)
  Correction/partial response to confusion about dextrin malts (Dave Humes)
  cooking questions (kathy)
  Private E-mail (IAN FORBES)
  Re: Home malting (Jeff Renner)
  lauter flow rate (Jeff Renner)
  RE: ? mashing proc. of extract manufacture (Dan Cole)
  Fermentation temp for Belgian yeasts / roasted German malts ("George De Piro")
  Damp Rid ("Eric Schoville")
  Re: pronunciation ("Otto, Doug")
  Large Wyeast packs ("George De Piro")
  RE: Damp Rid (LaBorde, Ronald)
  I used champ.yeast,HELP ("Jan Brown southern U.S.A.")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:28:32 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Yeast Questions

The last time I racked to a secondary, I decided to save some of the yeast
cake.  After I siphoned off the wort, I poured some of the yeast cake into
a sanitized pint jar and covered with sanitized lid. I then put the jar in
the refrigerator.

Last night (now about 3 weeks later) I thought I would try to start
stepping it up.  I  started  by removing the jar from  the refrigerator to
let it come to room temp.  The jar was about 1/4 yeast cake and 1/4 clear
wort.  About 45 minutes after removing it from the refrigerator it was in
full krausen.  

Some questions I need help with are:

What happened?  Why did it take off without any sugar?  I would have
thought that  the wort that was in the jar was pretty  much exhausted.  It
had gone through a primary ferment and was down to 1.018.  The original
batch sat in the secondary for 2 weeks and got down to 1.017.  There was
very little action.  Then, after 3 weeks in the fridge, warming up to room
temp. results in it taking off real fast.  

Could it be contaminated? 

Is there an easy way to tell? 

I plan to step up with 1 pint of 1.030 and see what happens.  Anything
special I should look for?

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner



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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:26:56 -0500
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Re: Mash in space?

Scott Murman wrote:
> I have to wonder where the external energy source is.  Do you
> typically attach your lauter tun to a rope and swing it around your
> head? 

Why would I do that? 

> Do you tow it behind your boat?  

Well, I might try that. 

> When you open the valve of
> your lauter tun, what is making the wort flow?  

My pump (with standard help from gravity) when I clarify first.  

> The pictures from John's experiment clearly show uniform downward flow
> everywhere except near the bottom surface of the lauter tun.

Look again, scott. The pictures clearly show a coning of the flow in the
single pickup mashtun. Maybe you looked at the double pickup mashtun
experiment by mistake.
> 
> There is a very simple experiment you can do to confirm this.  Fill a
> bottling bucket with water.  Let it settle (takes quite a while).
> Sprinkle pepper over the surface.  Open the drain valve.  Watch what
> happens to the pepper.  The pepper will not move, except for those
> close to the walls, as a boundary layer forms next to wall from the
> downward flow.  

You are neglecting a very important variable and that is the resistance
to flow that the grist presents. 
I'd suggest you go back and look at John P's experiment again. 
But I will try your pepper experiment, Scott and report back tommorrow.
Cheers!

Dave Ludwig 
Flat Iron Brewery
SO Md


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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:20:31 -0600
From: "Steinkamps" <EnW_Steinkamp at email.msn.com>
Subject: Canning of wort

A quick question regarding the canning of wort.  I'm don't know a lot about
canning, but I know they recommend that you start with hot jars, pour hot
stuff into the jars and add them to a hot canning kettle.  This applied to
wort (pronounced "wort eh" in Canada) would sort of indicate that I could
take the wort directly from the kettle, carefully transfer to jars (to avoid
HSA) and can.

Well what about the trub (hot break, cold break, hops etc...) that is going
to settle in the jars after canning?  The wort will be sitting on the trub
for perhaps months on end.  Would this have a detectable detrimental effect
on the finished beer?  Would it be better to cool the wort, let it settle
and then re-heat it and can it?

Private e-mail is fine. Thanks for the help.

Ed Steinkamp





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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:58:37 -0500
From: bs <schanbacher.2 at osu.edu>
Subject: sterilization and co2 kegging

A question about sterilization.  The method I have used most commonly in
the past has been bleach, but recently I was wondering why I couldn't
use plain old 3% hydrogen peroxide.  I figured, if you can gargle with
it, then it's not going to hurt if it doesn't rinse out, and it's
probably unstable enough to simply break down very quickly too.  I'm not
sure it's actually effective enough to be of much use.  Any thoughts on
this?

thanks in advance,

brandon



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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:56:15 -0500
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Re: Mash in space? pepper experiment

Scott,
I did your pepper experiment but I'm disappointed. Stats: 5 gallon gott
cooler, starting vessel water volume-12L, ran with and without lauter
manifold. See my manifold buried somewhere at
http://www.us.hsanet.net/user/dludwig/webdoc3.htm. I thought it would be
a flow vis thing but all it shows is what's happening on the surface
(duh.. didn't know pepper floated so well). Probably a pressure gradient
caused by surface tension and interaction with the vessel walls or maybe
coriolis force. Now the way the pepper migrates to the edge is
interesting but that phenomenon does not represent what's happening in
the mash. Sorry. If you do the experiment a few times and get the pepper
good and saturated, then they start to sink and then, do the experiment.
The results will be somewhat more representative.  Happy Veterans Day!
 
Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
SO Md


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:29:21 -0500 (EST)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Canned as a starter...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Ed intones, regarding starter sitting for eons on break material...

> Well what about the trub (hot break, cold break, hops etc...) that is
> going to settle in the jars after canning?  The wort will be sitting on
> the trub for perhaps months on end.  Would this have a detectable
> detrimental effect on the finished beer?  Would it be better to cool the
> wort, let it settle and then re-heat it and can it? 

Well, the only effect the break would have on your wort would be if it
began to break down via organic processes - rot. Rotting requires "helP in
the form of bacteria. You have canned your wort at such temperature and
time (haven't you?) to kill or otherwise render harmless all such
micro-organisms. I see no problems. In fact, I use a similar method to
make my starters. I start with a measured (by WEIGHT) quantity of DME,
yeast nutrient and cool water required to make my desired gravity. If I'm
in the mood for it, I add a hop pellet or two as well. I then pressure can
them at ten pounds for half an hour. I've used starters canned in this
manner YEARS (literally) after the canning event with no detriment. 

Also, the trub can be a source of lipids for the strong and healthy yeast
cell walls! 

(BTW: Your assumption about hot into the jars is not quite a requirement: 
the act of canning will make what's in the jars quite hot.  You need only
fill them with that which you are canning. Many times hot because you are
likely canning things that had to be cooked. Coincidence;  not
requirement. And the difference between the "hot pack" AND "cold pack" 
canning methods...)


See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."





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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:50:27 EST
From: DSchaff135 at aol.com
Subject: Pumps

I am looking at buying a pump for racking purposes.  I an just starting to
gather info.  If anyone has some suggestions it would be appreciated.

Thanks
Dave


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:43:07 -0500
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: You say lager, I say lay-ger

>How 'bout the tun in mash tun. I call it a tun (like bun).
>Is that right?

No, sorry.  It's pronounced "tun" as in antelope.

- --Brian





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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:12:00 -0700
From: "Timmons, Frank" <Frank.Timmons at alliedsignal.com>
Subject: Roggenbier

I have been curious about German Rye, or Roggenbier for a while now, and
am unable to find any commercial examples in my area. What I have found
out is often the grist is up to 60% rye, which seems very excessive to
me. I am thinking about maybe 20-25%, along with Munich, Pilsner, and
maybe some crystal to sweeten it up a bit. Before everybody unloads on
me, I know the sparge is going to be a major PITA.

 I'm just not sure of the yeast. I read somewhere that weizen yeasts are
used. If this is so, which strain?


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:57:39 -0500
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: coarse isinglass

collective homebrew conscience:

i recently tried using some dried isinglass that i got from brewer's
resource.  i acidified some boiled and cooled water to around 3.5 or so, and
chilled it to 55 deg. f, and added about a teaspoon of the isinglass, shook
it around a bit, and refrigerated it at 55 deg f for 24 hours.

the isinglass never totally dissolved - there were still big hunks in the
flask.  i used it anyway, but then wondered if i'm supposed to take some
sort of action to get it to dissolve into something that resembles the
liquid isinglass i've seen - which has no big chunks in it.

also - i know it's important to keep the isinglass at around 60 deg f for
the "rehydration" step, but what about the temperature of the beer i add it
to?  if the temp of the beer is above 60 or 65 deg f, will the isinglass go
slack after i add it?  what about colder temps - are they okay?

i searched the archives and couldn't find much about the proper techniques
for this.

brew hard,

mark bayer


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:23:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Re: mounting a thermometer in a SS pot?

Sorry about the old topic... I was offline for a week-and-a-half.

Doug writes:

>Most everyone is using a bimetal thermometer with a 3 inch dial made by
>Trend or Ashcroft. They have a 1/2 inch male pipe thread ( MPT ) on the
>back.
>One source on the web is: http://www.mcmaster.com/. Search for bimetal
>thermometers, page 363 of their catalog has the less expensive ones.
>
>I've installed mine by drilling a hole in the pot wall just large enough
>to take
>the 1/2 inch MPT fitting of the thermometer. I use a 1/2 inch locknut
>for
>electrical conduit. These are very inexpensive ( <30 cents ) and are
>quite
>thin for a nut of this diameter. The nut goes on the MPT fitting first
>and is
>threaded back toward the dial of the thermometer as far as is will go.

Problem: those electrical conduit nuts are galvanised steel.  First,
there is the question of zinc in our mash/wort and secondly, any scratches
in the zinc mean exposed steel which will impart unpleasant flavours and
can cause a permanent haze too.

I made a copper NPT (national pipe thread, despite hundreds of books
saying otherwise, "MPT" is an incorrect acronym) nut by cutting a
copper MPT-to-brasing fitting.  A pair of hole saws can be used to make
washers from any material you choose.  See my website for photos.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:30:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Fluid Flow...

I'm still taking a look at John's post on fluid flow through a grain bed.
Very interesting stuff, I'd say...

I can already see an error in his post, though.  However, it is my fault.
I forgot to mention that the Zapap (holey bucket in a bucket) system was
one of the ones also tested.

Al.


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:22:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: the great pepper experiment


I've had a couple of emails about the lauter/pepper experiment I
posted the other day, so I thought I'd better clear things up before
all the budding physics students out there start bombarding me.

The purpose of the experiment was simply to show that through most of
the lauter tun, radial pressures gradients can be ingnored, as David
Ludwig was asserting the contrary.  That's all.  It wasn't intended to
demonstrate anything profound.  Any of you who saw religious faces in
the pepper patterns, or heard the barking of dogs, should consult a
psychologist.  All that I wanted to show is that the walls of a lauter
tun aren't shaped like airfoils, so they won't cause streamlines to
curve, and there isn't some invisible vortex sitting in the middle of
the lauter tun.  Obviously the experiment was a failure, because it
didn't seem to convince David of anything, other than possibly I'm a
buffoon.

The comment that I made earlier was "the only energy potential of any
importance to this flow is gravity, and hence, the only possible
direction for the gradient of the potential is down."  I don't know
why that statement would cause so much arm waving and concern.

As for John's experimental photos.  The way I interpreted those (and I
really just glanced), was a uniform downward flow with boundary layers
on both walls.  The dye within the boundary layers will move slower
than that in the center, which gives rise to the "coning" type cross
sections in the photos.  Near the bottom surface the flow will get
very complicated and three-dimensional (the corner effects, etc.).
The reason there appears to be such thick boundary layers is, as I
mentioned earlier, this is a very low Reynolds number flow.  Assuming
you draw 6 gal. in 60 minutes, and using a cross sectional area of
your lauter tun as 1 sq. ft., the downward velocity is about 200x10-6
ft/sec.  The kinematic viscosity of water is about 0.5X10-5 sq. ft/sec
at 140F, which gives an *upper bound* on the Reynolds number of about
10.  Very low Reynolds number flow indeed.  As I suggested, this is
definately in the range of what's called Stokes' flow.

So all I was saying is that if I were going to model this, I'd start
by ignoring the radial and circumferential pressure gradients
everywhere, and include viscous effects.  However, it's easy for me to
give advice, since I have no intention of trying to model this thing.
I would suggest that a small numerical simulation would be very
feasible, and could even be programmed with Java and incorporated into
a web page.

 -SM- 
(if it wasn't for obscure national holidays, would government
employees ever get to brew?  Happy Veterans Day.)


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:33:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: corks and campden tablets

Matthew writes:
>1)  Crush one campden tablet and add it to two cups of water in a large
>bowl or saucepan.  Put your corks in the solution, put a collander  or
>something on top of them with a weight to keep the corks submerged.  Soak
>them overnight.

This is very commonly written in many winemaking books.  Actually, you
might as well just use the corks as-is.  Campden tablets work by reacting
with the acid in the wine must to make a sulphur gas (I can never remember
which one... sulphur dioxide?) which then reacts with the water in the
must to produce an acid that inhibits the growth (does not necessarily
kill) the bacteria and wild yeasts in the must.

As you can see, there are two problems here: 1. there is no acidity in
the water, so all you have is dissolved metabisulphite (sodium, probably,
but it could be potassium also) in water.  This is not a sanitiser. 
Secondly, even if you did add acid, you will not kill all the nasties.

Here's what I did to sanitise my corks for corked re-used Chimay bottles:

I soaked the corks for 15 minutes in boiling water.  Not only will this
kill most of the nasties, but it will also soften the corks for easier
use.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:36:11 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Wyeast 2308 tips?

Brewers/Brewsters,

After accidentally killing my Wyeast 2206XL pack by pouring it into a too
hot starter (never try to cook dinner, talk on the phone and make a starter
at the same time), I needed to start over with some more yeast and had to
pick up Wyeast 2308XL Munich lager yeast (brewshop was out of 2206).

I've searched the HBD archives about this strain and it seems like it is a
very finicky yeast. The items of advice that I have gleaned from previous
posters are:

1) This yeast produces a lot of diacetyl, so a diacetyl rest after primary
fermentation around 50F is mandatory (1 week at 65F enough?).

2) This yeast produces a lot of sulphur compounds (home perming solution),
so long lagering is necessary.

This yeast is intended for a Bock for a club meeting the first week of
February, so I think that I have enough time to get this thing done, but
does anyone have any other tips for taming this yeast?

Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA



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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:17:12 -0500
From: Drew <mac1 at cherco.net>
Subject: Just Hops - Still in Business????

Does anyone know what happened to Just Hops?  I've tried their number
(800-934-2739), but got the disconnected message.  Then I tried
Highlander's numbers and got the same results ( I think Just Hops &
Highlander belong to the same owner).  Any info would be appreciated,
especially new phone numbers if that's the problem I'm having.  If JH is
out of business, then I need a new supplier.  Any suggestions from the
collective?  Email responses are fine, but Just Hops was a great
supplier and I'm sure other HBDers would like to know how to contact
them (again!!).  TIA



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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:08:17 -0900
From: Fred <fnolke at alaska.net>
Subject: Hops Toxicity in Dogs

Search of HBD back issues produced nothing on this subject, so given
potential v.tragic consequences, here goes...

A "Gardens" column writer in the "Home" section of the Nov.5, Washington
Post, extolled hops as a "sterling ornamental" for all the reasons we
know and love.  He went on to write,"Once their essences are extracted
at the brewery, hop flowers can be used as an effective mulch.  Check
with you local microbrewery as a source for the discarded flowers."
I dragged out my back issues of Brewing Techniques when I got home and
verified that there has been a fair amount written on the subject of
hops toxicity in dogs.  Hops, it seems, have killed ..as in dead, a very
high percentage of dogs who have reacted adversely to their ingestion.
The garden columnist couln't imagine why a dog would want to eat hops,
but then he didn't realize that they are sweetened by wort, or has never
had a lab.
The last sentence written by Micheal Glassman, MD in the Brewing
Techniques issue reads, "Prevention is the best treatment;  brewers can
avoid untoward effects by disposing of brewing wastes responsibly."  So
much for my urge to compost my spent hops.

Fred Nolke,  Anchorage



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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:42:24 -0600
From: Rick Olivo <ashpress at win.bright.net>
Subject: Badger Beer (redux)

I originally posted this message to HBD in 1996. I am hoping that with the
growth of our avocation, new readers may see it and be able to offer input.
For those who have read this before, please forgive me; but this topic is
something of a mania with me.

I would like to ask for some help in researching a brew that was consumed
in southeastern Wisconsin in the 1820's through the 1840s or so. A BIT OF
BACKGROUND... Early in the 19th century, large discoveries of lead lying
close to the surface of the ground in what would later become southeastern
Wisconsin encouraged a mining boom that presaged the gold rush. The
Wisconsin lead rush saw communities of lead miners springing up overnight.
So eager were these men to dig up the richs of lead (used for many
purposes, especially lead bullets, soft castings etc.) that they lived in
their diggings, had stores and homes in holes in the ground. This, rather
than the small fierce animal (which is rare in Wisconsin) gave Wisconsin
the nickname "The Badger State." These men did not just live on the edge of
the fronteer. They lived and worked in the howling wilderness. They, like
all of their era, were also copious beer drinkers. Since they didn't even
have time to raise a roof over their heads, they certainly didn't have time
to grow barley or hops. they made do with whatever brews they could come up
with, some fair, some foul. Of these, one of the most famed was a drink
called "Badger Beer." From what fragmentary evidence I have been able to
turn up from state historical archives, the beer consisted of maple syrup
(sugar?) and honey obtained in trade with friendly indians, and spruce
needles as a bittering agent instead of hops. I understand that the
beverage was quick to ferment (my guess is that they used sourdough yeast)
being ready to drink in a month after inital fermentation. It was described
as "liquid joy" by one traveler upon tasting it for the first time and "far
superior to ordinary brews." It was described as very pale, fragrent, and
refreshing. I must admit I am puzzled by the rapidity at which it was ready
to drink. I know honey meads can take over a year to properly mature. How
could this brew be ready to drink so soon? At any rate, Badger Beer went
out of existance when agriculture and the burgeoning brewing industry in
Milwaukee made it easy to get low-cost beer without the trouble of brewing
it. Badger beer thus vanished into the mists of time. I beleve this
mysterous and appealing beverage should be revived. I welcome any comments
and feedback here or as e-mail to me (Rick Olivo, my address is
ashpress at win.bright.net)If by any chance someone has an actual recipie. I
will gladly share my first case with them! Thank you for your intrest and
assistance. Rick Olivo, aka Strange Brewer. (Note: None of this is
copyrighted or reserved in any way. Life is way too short to deal with that
nonsense.} 



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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:17:10 EST
From: Hmbrwrpete at aol.com
Subject: fixing flat beer

Hello all,

I just sampled my Weizenbock that I brewed back in September and it's flatter
than flat! 

The beer was in primary for 10 days, racked to another carboy for clearing and
held for 21 days at 64 degrees (give or take 2 degrees) then bottled with 7 oz
corn sugar. Bottles sat at 64 degrees for 9 days and then were moved to a 44
degree cooler for 19 days. 

My guess is I let it sit too long and yeast dropped out? But when I flip a
bottle I do see sediment in suspension. I have taken 3 bottles and conducted a
little experiment. Bottle 1 was given some champagne yeast, bottle 2 was given
champagne yeast and 1 priming tablet, bottle three was given champagne yeast
and 2 priming tablets. 

1) Does anybody have any other suggestions while I wait? 
2) Should I be counting the number of grains of yeast going in to the bottles?
3) How can I most easily dispense said yeast
4) Any yeast recommendations, I'm thinking Champagne, Coopers Ale or Lager
(all dry)?

Thanks,
Pete Gottfried
Sultans of Swig Minister of Information
Buffalo, NY

PS My wife said it doesn't bother her and she's sure it happens to all male
homebrewers. Dammit, it's never happened to me before!


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:47:46 -0600
From: "Raymond C. Steinhart" <rnr at popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Condensation buildup in chest freezer

To the fridge guy:

I may have missed a recent post relating to this subject.  I have a new 
chest type freezer I am using for a cooler.  I run it at 43F.  Because
this is a new energy efficient freezer, they don't put condensate drain
holes in and I have small puddles of water at different places along the
bottom.  Will it help to add a drain hole?  Aside from watching out for
the coils in the walls, is there anything else to watch out for?  

Thanks, Ray Steinhart

- -- 
My All Electric RIM Brewing System
"http://www.mcs.net/~rnr"


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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:52:25 PST
From: "Marc Fries" <q_mech at hotmail.com>
Subject: I was rejected the first time because I didn't have a subject line...!


Howdy, y'all

   Some thoughts on the pronounciation stuff; as a passable German 
speaker and a chemist, I pronounce the following...

Trub - troob
Vorlauf - four-lowf   ...the last syllable sounds like owl
diacetyl - die-ass-eat-ill

 ...and the doozie:

wort - vert (!)

   The last one may puzzle y'all a bit, but the Germans pronounce "w"s 
as if they were "v"s, and "v"s as if they were "f"s.  This word reminds 
me of the Latin root "ver-", meaning "to grow", as in "veriditas" which 
means something weird like "growth force".  German is not a Latin-root 
language the last I checked, but I wonder if this one made it across 
some borders in ages past.   ...or I could have it all wrong.  The next 
time I'm in Deutschland I'll ask around.

   Oh, and for the record, I usually say "wert", just because I get 
tired of explaining myself!

Brew on, critters,
Marc D. Fries

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:58:42 EST
From: BrwrOfBeer at aol.com
Subject: Site glass

Can a site glass be put on the side of a converted Keg with out welding?  If
so, what is the best way of doing so?  Any advice welcome.  E-mail ok.
Prost,
Scott


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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 08:09:30 -0500
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Correction/partial response to confusion about dextrin malts

Greetings,

I made the following statement in my posting in digest #2873: 

>It seems to
>me that the dextrins are subject to the mash enzymes, so further
>glycolytic breakdown will occur to the dextrins contributed by the
>dextrin malt.  

I'm sure you all got the idea, but what I really meant to say was
enzymatic breakdown.  

I also asked about the differences between carmel and crystal malts. 
Lewis and Young make the following statement in "Brewing":

"Thus, there are two product lines.  Those represented by unconverted
endosperm (pale malt through the various high kiln, brown and roasted
malts) and those with converted endosperm such as carastan or cara-pils
malt or dextrine malt and crystal malts with high color and intense
flavor.  We suggest that the term carmel malts be used to describe the
first group of malts and crystal malt be reserved for the second type."

Is this a widely accepted definition?


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>                  Dave Humes
- -----------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:49:18 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: cooking questions

I would like to pose some questions for the chefs out there about the
use of beer in recipes.  

1)  I assume almost any recipe that uses wine or vinegar to deglaze a
pan surface could use beer as a substitute?  Opinions or guidelines?

2)  Recipes as stews, soups or braizes could use beer?

3)  Most marinades would be diluted by beer and they would add little to
using dry or liquid marinade rubs, or unless you are formulating a
liquid marinade to heat and use as a sauce after cooking?

4)  Does baking with beer have any advantages over other liquids?

cheers,  jim booth, lansing, mi




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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:04:59 -0500
From: IAN FORBES <IFORBES at BCBSCT.COM>
Subject: Private E-mail

Greetings,

I have a request for the collective.  I have noticed that there seems to be
an increasing number of posters who request private e-mail responses. 
Don't get me wrong, I understand the negative impact that would be felt
if everyone who responded to a question did so by posting on the HBD. 
Having said that, I find it frustrating to see an interesting post that will
never have responses posted.  I have communicated directly with
posters in the past, bu find this to be a cumbersome process at best. 
First, you have to remember who posted, what the question or subject
was and then monitor to see if there was a response.  The most
detrimental impact that exclusive private posting has is depriving the
collective of bits and pieces of information.  As a relatively new brewer,
I cherish these pieces of information.
So please, please post responses.  We will all forgive you if the queue
backs up.

Ian Forbes
Hamden, Connecticut
700 driving miles
Mostly east then a little south of Jeff Renner



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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:06:56 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Home malting

Thanks to Keith Menefy <kmenefy at ihug.co.nz> who wrote of his experience in
home malting.  A few thoughts.  I've done this perhaps five or six times
over the last dozen years or so, the last time with oats (why are oats
always plural?).  I got somewhere in the mid 20's p/p/g.  One thing I note
about Keith's procedure is that there seems to be a drying step, no no
higher kilning.  This is important for flavor development.

There is certainly more information available to the amateur now than years
ago, but there were two articles back in the early - mid 80's in Zymurgy.
One, by R.C. Dale of Seattle, WA, in the Special Grain Issue of 1985, was
excellent, especially for the design of the malt drying/kilning cabinet.
This consisted of three stackable square trays about 18" square (or about
50 cm - I know that's not exact, but since I'm grossly estimating 18 inches
from a photo, it makes no sense whatsoever to convert this to 45.72 cm, or
even 45 cm, as one often sees - sorry, a pet peeve) and 6-7 " (15-18 cm)
high, with stainless mesh bottoms.  The steeped grain is put into these
trays to sprout.  The trays are stacked with shims between them for passive
air circulation.

For drying and kilning, the trays are stacked without shims on top of a
base that has a blower, three "glocone" heaters, a thermometer and heater
control.  On top of the stacked trays is a pyramid top with a dryer vent
and thermometer for off air.  For drying, the air is vented.  For kilning,
it is recirculated.  It is a very neat looking system.  Using Klages malt
that he was able to get from a local grower, Dale reported "The resulting
malt has excellent taste, ferments very rapidly and yields comparable to
that of American commercial malt."

I'm sure that the engineer/tinkerers here on HBD could improve on this
system, especially with automated controls.  This may be the next frontier
of hombrewing.  There certainly is a Zymurgy or BT article in this.

I don't know what the copyright laws would have to say about posting scans
of this three page article on the web (Spencer?).  The old issue is
probably not available from AHA anymore, and it hardly seems worthwhile for
them to reprint it.  If all else fails, I can provide photocopies to
interested parties.

Jeff

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:25:08 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: lauter flow rate

Ian Lyons <ilyons at science.adelaide.edu.au> asks how fast his zapap should
flow.  I used an improved zapap (see below for improvements) for 15 years
until my RIMS.  If all is set up properly, you should be able to get a more
than pint a minute with no trouble, although this is a little fast for best
results, and it may not be sustainable.  I generally slowed it to get a US
gallon every 6-7 minutes.  Faster than that, it has been suggested, will
reduce efficiency, and could lead to a compacted grain bed and stuck sparge.

>Also any brilliant schemes to reduce the dead-space in the bottom?

The inner bucket (at least US designs) will sit further down in the outer
one if you cut off the protruding rings on the inner one.  You could
probably even cut the bucket off below the lowest ring and let it slide
most of the way down.

I never worried about the extra space, but I did make a few other
improvements.  I used to get air sucked between the buckets, resulting in
poor flow and potential hot side aeration (HSA), so I used food grade
silicone caulk to seal the gap.  I also discovered that the thick styrofoam
shipping jacket for a 7 gallon carboy exactly fit a zapap, making an
insulated jacket.  No more wrapping sleeping bags.  I used a thick
styrofoam cutout circle on the lid, and insulated the gap above the carboy
container with bubble wrap.  All in all, though, if I were doing it again,
I think I'd use a cylindrical cooler instead.  I made a lot of good beer in
that zapap, though.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:19:24 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: RE: ? mashing proc. of extract manufacture

Rick asks:
>Is there any source for the mash schedules used by the companys
>that make malt extract? Do they use single infusion, steps or
>decoction?
>rick pauly
>charlottesville,va

If you had a particular manufacturer in mind, you might be able to get
information directly from them, but I doubt it; it's probably a trade
secret. Plus, my guess is that their methods of converting wort to extract
has much more impact on the product than their mash schedule.

Heck, according to some published studies, you'll be lucky if you find an
extract that is all malt and not tainted with lower cost non-malt sugars.
Yep, adulteration of extracts (definately liquid and unknown if this also
applies to dry) was shown to be a pretty common practice.

Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA



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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:40 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Fermentation temp for Belgian yeasts / roasted German malts

     Hi all,
     
     Rob K. asks about the appropriate temperature for fermenting Belgian 
     ales.  He notes that many of them won't finish fermenting if kept in 
     the "normal" ale range (60-65F, around 15-18C), but is concerned that 
     fermenting them around 75F (24C) will be too conducive to rapid yeast 
     growth (and yield a beer with unpalatably high levels of higher 
     alcohols and esters).
     
     I have had decent results by pitching a large, active starter into 
     wort at about 18C and then allowing the heat of fermentation to take 
     the wort up to 24C or so.  In this way the yeast growth rate is 
     somewhat restrained, and the yeast will be at a temperature they find 
     more ideal when the stress of their lower nutrient/higher alcohol 
     environment starts to get to them.
     
     Somebody (sorry) asked about Ommegang yeast.  Yes, the bottling strain 
     is the same as the fermentation strain, and like many Belgian yeasts 
     it won't finish if kept at a "normal" temperature.  At Ommegang they 
     ferment at around 25.5C (78F).
     ----------------------------
     Mark asks about sources of roasted German malts.  Weyermann makes 
     some.  They have a rather long list of roasted malts, including 
     interesting stuff like chocolate rye malt, carawheat malt, chocolate 
     wheat malt, and roasted barley malts (Carafa I, II, and III are 
     available with or without husks!).  Your friendly, neighborhood 
     homebrew supplier should be able to order them for you.
     
     The huskless, roasted malts are reputed to produce a smoother flavor 
     than their husk-clad counterparts.  Schneider und Sohn do use huskless 
     roasted malts in both their Schneider Weisse and Aventinus.  Whether 
     it actually makes a difference or not is something for the individual 
     to decide.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: 12 Nov 98 07:47:10 -0800
From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Damp Rid

All,

	The infamous Paul Kensler, who brews an excellent lambic BTW,
comments that Damp Rid does not do the job in his chest freezer.
I have been using Damp Rid in both of my 13 cubic feet chest freezers,
and they both do an adequate job of keeping down the water.  True,
there is some moisture on the walls, but so far I have not had any
mold or rust problems.  Here is my situation:
	Freezer 1: Serving and Lagering.  Temperature at or near 34
		    degrees Fahrenheit.  2x4 ring around the top used
		    for taps.  Some moisture buildup on the inside.
	Freezer 2: Primary fermentation.  Temperature at or near 52
		    degrees Fahrenheit for lagers, 65 degrees for ales.
		    _No Ring_  Some humidity but not enough for a problem.

I think that the wooden ring allows more moisture through and presents
more of a problem.

Eric


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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:12:53 -0800
From: "Otto, Doug" <otto at alldata.com>
Subject: Re: pronunciation

Could it be....Satan?


>Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:21:25 +0000
>From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
>Subject: pronunciation
>
>so how do you pronounce Clinitest?

- --
Doug Otto                    
IT-Systems Manager           otto at alldata.com
Alldata Corporation        800.829.8727 ext.3137



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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:12 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Large Wyeast packs

     Hi all,
     
     Wyeast is great because of their large collection, and their packaging 
     is very convenient for people who don't have the desire to deal with 
     slants (although they are really easy to handle).  The instructions on 
     their package have always bothered me, though, because it is not 
     correct to advise brewers to pitch directly from the package into a 19 
     L  (5 gal.) batch.
     
     The large Wyeast packs are indeed a bit of a rip-off; they contain 
     *FAR* too little yeast to pitch directly into a 5 gallon batch and 
     cost an extra $1.50-2.00.  On the other hand, the price of the small 
     packs has been relatively constant over the past few years, and the 
     Wyeast folks do deserve to live indoors and eat.  $5.00 isn't going to 
     break me; I suppose it's more the principle of the thing:  they claim 
     to be providing "direct pitchability" for the extra money when in fact 
     they are not.  You still need to make a two-step starter to get the 
     yeast population up to pitching strength.
     
     How can you, as a consumer, express your dissatisfaction to Wyeast?  
     Call them up!  Stop buying their yeast!  Buy a pack once and put the 
     yeast on slants!
     
     Yeast ranching is easy, and there are other yeast providers (The 
     Brewing Science Institute and the Yeast Culture Kit Company are two 
     businesses I have had good experiences with; the usual disclaimers 
     apply).
     
     If you don't mind paying a little extra, and find the Wyeast packaging 
     convenient, keep buying Wyeast.  If they piss you off, take your 
     business elsewhere.  Ah, capitalism...
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:20:53 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Damp Rid

>>>>
In HBD#2872, Doug Moyer reported continuing moisture 
problems in his chest freezer, and Damp Rid hasn't helped.
<<<<

Here in Metairie, LA we have moist air!  I mean I am talking about water
puddles in the bottom of my freezers.  Oh that "s" at the end of freezers is
wonderful!

Anyhow, I don't think Damp Rid would do me much good here.  I have been
using a large sponge, let it sit on top of the puddle.  My freezers seem to
have a lowest spot where the condensation finally collects, so I just put
the sponge there and wring it out now and then.  I pour some sanitizer on it
when I think about it also.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:24:41 -0600
From: "Jan Brown southern U.S.A." <jbrown58 at bellsouth.net>
Subject: I used champ.yeast,HELP

Dont laugh but we used a pack of champ. yeast and a pack of beer yeast
that came with
malt. I proofed it so I know its fine. 6 hours after pitching is
fermenting like mad. Should I dump the whole thing and start over. What
do you think??
From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 11/12/98 11:09 AM
Naa,
Never dump beer, you can always cook with it. The wine yeast will
ferment
all of the sugars in the beer. So what you will get is a VERY dry beer.
When it is done, Try it.  I suppose once it is done you could do what I
do
for meads, which is kill off the yeast with camden tablets, wait 2 days.

Then at bottleing add a pound of lactose (unfermentable by beer yeast
[disolve in water and boil]) to make up for the lost sweetness. Add
another
packet of beer yeast along with priming sugar and bottle as normal. I've

never done this with a beer before and don't know how bad the sulphery
side
effects of the camden tablets might be. Depending on the style you might

consider dry-hopping after the camden tables are done to mask some of
these
off-aromas. this would give another week or two before bottling.  Its a
good question for the HBD. Feel free to quote or repost my idea in your
post.
Phil.
OK people... I have 2 -5gallon carboys chugging away with this mix of
champ and kit beer yeast. HELP. I dread dumping it but I dread it being
undrinkable. I have two other carboys I'll start today so I will not be
beerless in 6 to 8 weeks just short a couple of gallons. WHAT DO I DO???

jan











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---