---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  HOMEBREW Digest #2879,  19 November 1998, Response (Fred Scheer)
  Orval  Clone (Ted McIrvine)
  Re: Cider! Help! (Bob Sweeney)
  Aluminium, Dry Yeast and CrabBoil ("george vincent")
  Natty Boh ("Spies, Jay")
  Dessicant - that brown stuff (Doug Moyer)
  Site Glass Fittings ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Pellets ("Spies, Jay")
  Rye malt vs flaked rye (Eric Reimer)
  DanStar Manchester ("H. Dowda")
  Another Thermometer Calibration Idea (MaltHound)
  aluminum question ("Darren Gaylor")
  Yet another dry guy ("Dave Draper")
  bottling from the keg ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Hugh Baird Munich/Decoction ("Riedel, Dave")
  specialty grain use ("Czerpak, Pete")
  AHA Board of Advisors ("Edmund J. Busch")
  sparge water (Jason.Gorman)
  re:  pellet clogging (Vachom)
  Re:  Question about yeast nutrient (artcemelli)
  pronounce Saaz ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  crab seasoning (Lou.Heavner)
  Alt Again (Troy Hager)
  Durst Malts/Alt Recipe Formulation ("John W. Thomasson")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:40:45 -0700
From: Fred Scheer <maltster at marsweb.com>
Subject: HOMEBREW Digest #2879,  19 November 1998, Response

                       "Richard Scott" wrote:
                        Subject: Wife Beer 1.0
Zima or.........2-Dog Lemon Brew..........
she has her heart set on clear-near-beer

Richard,  I was involved in the making of a lot of  clear beer,  my
recommendation is to further purchase the products, because it will
be impossible to make that kind of beer at the homebrew level.
We had made pilot brews ( 1 bbl) to see if we could develop some
other CLEAR products.................NO luck.



                    Tidmarsh Major  wrote:
                    Subject: Proto-germanic brewing

Modern High German 'wurz' (root/foot of the
mountain) and 'wuerz' (root of plant/spice).

Tidmarrsh,     Wurz should be written   "Wurzel", which means
the root of plants.     Wuerz should be written  "Gewuerz" for
spice.

Fred Scheer
MALT  MONTANA



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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:05:04 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Orval  Clone

Orval is one of my favorites... I use 7 lbs DeWolf Cosyns Pils malt and
 1 lb of DWC Caravienne and 1 lb of DWC belgian wheat along with Chimay
 yeast.  I haven't used candi sugar in this since I get about 54 gravity
 with this grain bill.  I recirculate generously (as much as a gallon)
 before I sparge.  Your hops look right to me; I'd use about 2 ounces of
 European low-alpha hops (Saaz and something German) and dry-hop with
 East Kent Goldings.
 
 I've read that Orval uses a wild yeast for secondary conditioning.  I
 haven't tried this since my experiences with wild yeast have been (not
 surprisingly) wildly unpredictable.  I've had good results with both
the
 W-Yeast Chimay strain and Abbey II.
 
 Ted
> 
> >
> > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:45:43 +0100
> > From: "Jens P.Maudal" <jensmaudal at bu.telia.no>
> > Subject: Orval clone
> >
> > Roger Protz describes the making of this beer fairly
> > detailed in the "European Beer Almanac"
> > 86% pale malt(of 4 different types)
> > 13,5% Caravienne malt
> > White Candy sugar (350 kg per brew)
> > Hallertau and Styrian Goldings hops, dry-hopped with Kent Goldings.
> > same yeast for the primary and secondary and a different (lager)
> > yeast for the bottle priming.
> > The IBU is not specified, only mention generous use of bittering
> > hops resulting in a tart bitterness.
> > I am wondering if anybody has tried making Orval  and have a
> > good recipe to share.
> >
> > - --
> >   Jens P.Maudal
> >
> >   "Bottoms up everybody"


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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 06:00:47 -0500
From: Bob Sweeney <rsweeney at hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Cider! Help!


Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 20:29:20 EST
From: Redholling at aol.com
Subject: Cider! Help!

Pasteurization isn't the "enemy", its likely preservatives. Check the fine
print on the cider label for potassium sorbate and/or sodium benzoate.
All is not lost however; I've found from personal experience that you can 
hit even preservative-rich cider with so much yeast that it will still
ferment out.  My solution was to brew a batch of beer and then dump the
cider onto this beer's primary dregs.  In my case I used the primary
from a spiced Christmas ale and the cider finished with a similar, and
nicely-mellow spiced charactistic.

Still posting from NW Alabama somewhere near the banks of the beautiful 
Tennessee River, where brewing is both a hobby and a felony.
 
>Hi Boys and Girls,
>  Last weekend I put together what looked like a great cider recipe using 4
>gallons of 100% Cider (it was pasteurized) and 4 lbs of C&H Pure Cane Dark
>Brown Sugar. I boiled 1 and 1/2 gallons of water, dissolved the brown sugar
>and cooled in ice bath. I tried starting my one pack of dry wine yeast with
>one pint of boiled water (cooled to 105deg) and 2T corn sugar, according to
>the recipe. When I pitched I let it sit for 15 mins, then shook the carboy
>real good. After 4 days of no airlock action (and the gravity remaining at
>1.052), I rehydrated another pack of wine yeast (this time following the
>directions on the pack) and pitched it. Twice in the last day I've seen a
>single bubble escape, but nothing spectacular. I believe I've done a good job
>sanitizing my equipment. Will pasteurized cider not work (I've seen other
>recipes use it, but say fermentation takes longer). Is the brown sugar
>fermentable? Can I fix this batch. I DON'T WANT TO THROW IT OUT! Any help
>(private e-mail ok) would be greatly appreciated. 

>Nootch!
>Red


- --
Bob Sweeney                xrsweeney at hiwaay.net
Remove the 'x' from the above address before using.

Copyright 1998.  All rights reserved.



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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 05:44:36 PST
From: "george vincent" <lauter_tun at hotmail.com>
Subject: Aluminium, Dry Yeast and CrabBoil

All;

Dry yeast?
Aluminiun pots?
CrabBoil beer?
What next?

I for one AM NOT, going to try the CrabBoil in my next beer.
 
Has anyone thaught of Crab Beer?
I suppose anything could be fermented.
Maybe brewed in an aluminium pot, and finished with dry yeast. 
Why not???

They use raw meat in Apple Scrumpy, don't they?
 
Guess I've wasted enough of every-ones time.

Thanks, George

P.S. There are some Great beers brewed in Maryland, to the best of my 
knowledge none employ crabs, or crabboil. It might be the Goose that 
lays the golden egg.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:04:36 -0500
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Natty Boh

All -

Mikey Beck wrote  >>>Actually, didn't I hear that Pittsburgh Brewing
does a lot of the Natty Bo brewing now?<<<

Fortunately.

;-)

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:04:31 -0500
From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at geocities.com>
Subject: Dessicant - that brown stuff

"NEWTRADBC at aol.com" wrote:

>A few posters have commented on 'a brown dirt-like substance' in canvas
bags.
>While I'm not positive, this sounds remarkably like clay, as in kitty
litter.

After the recommendation last week, I went straight out and purchased a
48 oz. sack of De-Moist. The primary ingredients are calcium chloride
and diatomaceous earth, hence the color. I still have some moisture, but
it is an order of magnitude or two less than when I was just using the
cup of Damp Rid.

I may have to try some kitty litter as well. After all, I am already
using the buckets that once held 30# of Fresh Step kitty litter. After I
hurt my back a couple of months ago carrying my converted keg with 10
gallons of water from the kitchen to the back yard (and I still have not
completely recovered), I have started using these buckets to transport
my brewing water to my backyard brewery. Each one holds just a hair over
four gallons. I also use one to hold the grain that I crush at the
homebrew store. (I've built up quite a supply of these stupid buckets,
cause I couldn't bring myself to throw away something that seems so
potentially useful. I'm glad I've finally found a use!)

Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Damp Kitty Brewery in Salem, VA
On tap: Back Breaker IPA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity



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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:10:37 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox"<pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Site Glass Fittings





From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 11/20/98 09:10 AM

Steve Milito asks about Site Glass fittings...

I was fortunate enough to grow up next to a guy who owns his own Plumbing
business. He's 82 yrs old and still works a few hours every day of the
week! Needless to say, I had no problem getting scrap site glass parts from
old boilers through he and his son. They even ordered/cut my site glass to
the exact size needed. 14.5" total cost $6.50 and a 6-pack. My suggestion
is for you to find a commercial/industrial plumbing company that has been
around a long while. They should be able to help you out, quite easily.

Fittings are an interesting thing. I should have used the same 1/2"
couplings I have for everything else. My keg welder didn't understand (and
neither did I) how sight glasses are installed so he welded in stainless
unions instead of just the coupling. This is redundant and not necessary.
But it does look impressive. The fittings I have, have a valve like your
outdoor spigot on them and the lower one has a drain plug also. This would
allow me to drain and clean (Replace) the sight glass with the HLT still
full of water, as well as prevent the accidental draining of the HLT. They
also have the brass safety rods that run in between them to help protect
the glass from inadvertent swinging objects (brew paddles, Fest Steins,
small children, neighborhood cats...;<) .

The sight glass part works just like a compression fitting, but it uses a
rubber gasket and a glass tube, I imagine if you over tighten you can break
the glass. None the less this allows you to install the sight glass
fittings directly into the couplings in your keg/vessel. You then line them
up and measure the gap between and cut you site glass to that length. You
then put the brass compression caps on the site glass and then the 1/2"
rubber compression gasket on the end of the glass and simply slide it into
place. I found that hand tightening was sufficient to get a water tight
seal, but I gave it an extra little turn anyway.  20 min of adding 1/2 gal
increments to the keg, and I was fully graduated. I used a permanent marker
on the glass itself, then went back and marked on the keg also. When the
water disappears from the glass there is 2.5 gallons left in the HLT.

Best of luck,

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewery
Warden-Prison City Brewers  http://hbd.org/prisoner
Jackson MI (32 miles west of Jeff Renner)




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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:13:49 -0500
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Pellets

All -

Ed asks  >>>>Is there a way to brew with hop pellets without everything
getting clogged?<<<<

After chilling, whirlpool vigorously for about 30 seconds, replace lid,
let everything settle for about 20 minutes, then siphon quietly from the
side of the kettle.  You will get minimal hops/troooubhe in the
fermenter . . .

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:18:54 -0500
From: Eric Reimer <eric at etymonic.com>
Subject: Rye malt vs flaked rye

Hi all,

I'm considering brewing a roggenbier or perhaps a roggenweiss.  I can't 
find malted rye locally, but have no difficulty getting flaked rye.  What 
are the pros and cons to each type of rye?  What flavour differences can I 
expect?  What about mashing and lautering differences?

Thanks,

Eric Reimer
Barking Dogs Brewery
London, Ontario (Just a short distance north-east of Jeff Renner)



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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:18:33 -0500
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at scsn.net>
Subject: DanStar Manchester

The fourth Danstar (Lallemand) yeast is 'Manchester'.  Described as
producing old English style beer (Old Ale?????), complex, woody and
full-bodied when fermented at the warm end of the range  (recommended
64-70F!)  Danstar home page:

http://www.lallemand.com/brew/beer_yst.html



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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:21:38 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: Another Thermometer Calibration Idea

I was thinking about some of the ideas posted about calibrating thermometers
and doing this at temperatures close to those we intend to measure, I had an
idea that may be of some worth.  Why don't you just stick it in your mouth?  

Assuming you are not feeling ill or haven't just finished running a marathon
your body temp should be 98.6 degrees F.  Even if your temperature was running
a bit high or low (you aren't ovulating now are you?) it would be well within
the desired accuracy range required to monitor your mash temps.  Readings
averaged on multiple calibration instruments (other peoples mouths) or on
succesive days might provide a bit more accuracy.  It sure would beat paying
good money to rent or own a calibration instrument (which itself would require
regular calibration BTW).

Fred Wills
Londondery, NH



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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:30:28 -0800
From: "Darren Gaylor" <dwgaylor at pacifier.com>
Subject: aluminum question

William Graham suggests trying an auction at a restaurant that is going out
of business as a possible source of large kettles.  This worked for me.

It was actually more of a garage sale atmosphere, but I was able to buy two
15 gallon Al pots for $5 each.  They were a little dirty and didn't have
lids, but the price was certainly right.  At five bucks each, I figure they
paid for themselves after one batch.

Darren Gaylor
Vancouver, WA



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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:00:42 -0600
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Yet another dry guy

Dear Friends,

I may as well also put in my testimonial for the Danstar Nottingham 
dried yeast strain.  Much mention has been made of barleywine 
uses; that's what made me try it in the first place-- Rob Moline's 
simply awesome gold-medal-winning BW was made with it, and if it 
was good enough for that, it was good enough for me to try.  And 
this from a card carrying, yeast-ranching, pointy-headed beer geek.

The dryness/attenuation of Nottingham have been well described 
already, I'll merely say I have had the same results, but for the 
beers I have used it for that has not been a big deal.  I am finding it 
particularly good for stouts for this reason.  I have not been as 
impressed with the Windsor strain; in my three or four uses it gave 
a flavor I did not much like.

On the same subject of the point on my head becoming more 
blunt, I've also relegated the beloved (to me) 40-60-70 mashing 
procedure to the archives for now, and have been doing single-
temperature, 90 minute infusions (plus mashout) exclusively since 
early this year.  I brewed a pair of brown ales back to back that 
differed only in the use of the two procedures, and everyone who 
tried them, myself included, preferred the body and mouthfeel of 
the single-step brew to those of the multi-step effort.  Just goes to 
show that the road to geekdom *is* a two way street.

Cheers, Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
I can't be bought for a mere $3.50. ---Jeff Renner



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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:25:02 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: bottling from the keg

Hello all:

I'm new to the kegging homebrew scene and was wondering about people's
methods to fill bottles without using a CP filler.  Is one really needed
or can I get by with something else?  I'm kegging at 12-14 psi and using
3/16" I.D. beer lines with a picnic faucet and not having any problems
with foamage.

The bottles are for competition stuff so I need them to be carbonated to
style.  Any ideas?? Private email ok but here is better for group
knowledge.

Thanks, Pete
pete.czerpak at siigroup.com



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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:22:21 -0800
From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at PAC.DFO-MPO.GC.CA>
Subject: Hugh Baird Munich/Decoction

> I recently made a doppelbock which I felt was a good
> opportunity to try a single decoction.  I've got a couple
> of questions and a data-point.
> 
> 1.  I pulled the decoction and raised it to 158F to convert.
> It took well over 40 mins to do so.  I was expecting
> 15-20.  The grist was 75% Hugh Baird Munich.  Is it
> possible that it was so well modified to be a very slow
> converting malt?
> 
> 2.  If I'm not mistaken, the idea behind the decoction (aside
> from temperature control) is to boil the sugars and grains
> to encourage Mailliard reactions and hence increase the
> malt character of the final product.  So, would it not be
> acceptable to allow the decoction to convert until it tastes
> generally sweet and then raise it to the boil?  If there is
> starch left, it's going to be converted later in the main
> mash, right?
> 
> Data-point:  as alluded to above, with a grist comprised
> of 75% HB Munich and 12% DWC Pils, I found that
> conversion (even at 158F) was sluggish.  I left the main
> mash to convert for about 75 mins.
> 
> (Perhaps a German or Belgian Munich might be a
> better base malt for predominantly Munich grists).
> 
> cheers,
> Dave Riedel
> Victoria, BC, Canada
> 


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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:31:09 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: specialty grain use

I still haven't switched to all-grain yet, but I have a specialty grain
question.  Is there such thing as too much use of the darker grains like
chocolate, black patent, roast barley.  Seems that I brewed a porter
using 8 lbs amber extract, 0.5 lb chocolate, 0.5 lb crystal, and a
smidge of black patent to help color.  2 weeks of keg aging and it still
seems to have a pretty strong burnt/roasted taste.

Did I use too much chocolate? Or has it just not aged enough yet?  I
guess it could be the use of about 35-40 IBUs of hops but it seems to be
burnt and not too bitter.

Hope someone has a good idea.  Maybe with the next batch I'll go 1/2
crystal, 1/4 chocolate, and still the smidge of BP to try and figure it
out.  Stylistically i wanted a robust porter.

Thanks,
Pete
pete.czerpak at siigroup.com


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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:12:18 -0500
From: "Edmund J. Busch" <filter at rcn.com>
Subject: AHA Board of Advisors

Ladies and Gentlemen;
The American Homebrewers Association's Board of Advisors (BOA) has an open
seat that we'd like to fill. In order to fill this opening on the board,
the existing board will nominate a slate of three to five people as
candidates for an election by the general membership, the first time that
the general membership would be so involved. Anybody on the board
nominating a candidate will be prepared to champion that candidate, telling
the rest of the BOA why their nominee is to be considered for nomination.
The BOA will discuss the potential candidates among ourselves and decide on
a final slate. This final slate will be submitted to the general membership
for a vote early in 1999.
	Nominated candidates will be asked to confirm in writing that they want to
be candidates. They will also be asked to write something to be posted on
the AHA website about why they should be members of the board. Although any
AHA member can be considered for the BOA, we need representation in certain
areas of the country. We expect geography to be a significant factor for
this vote.
	Although the AHA members-only website will be the forum for the election,
we will post notices to other beer-related Internet sites that this is
going on and that members should visit the site regularly for an update.
Nominees and voters must all be AHA members in good standing. We will ask
in our postings that individuals and clubs share this information with
members who are not computer savvy and don't have access to the Internet.
Those members can ask for help from another member who is good on computers
or, if they can handle a computer but just don't have one, they can use the
PC's located in many public libraries to access the AHA website.
	A postcard ballot will be included in an issue of Zymurgy. Voters can pick
their choice, sign the ballot (security in case ballots get stolen. Who
votes for who will not be published.), put a stamp on the card and send it
in. I will count the ballots, or if the BOA prefers, and if someone else on
the BOA wishes to volunteer, we'll send the ballots to them. The person
receiving the most votes wins and, if the process is completed in time,
will be sworn in at the next national conference meeting, in Kansas City.

	IN THE FUTURE, we will develop a way to take nominations from the general
membership. This process is evolutionary. We will learn from this first
vote (or maybe the first few votes will be handled this way) and make sure
that the voting system works well. Then we add on a method to get
nominations from the general membership.
	Please refer to the Board of Advisors by-laws at the AHA website:
http://dionysus.aob.org/members/ahabylaws.htm

I wish everybody good health and good cheer!
Ed Busch
Co-chairman, AHA Board of Advisors




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Date: 20 Nov 1998 14:04:47 -0500
From: Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com
Subject: sparge water


I read somewhere that adding a small amount of DME to the sparge water will
increase the acidity and help out the sparge.  I could not find it in the
archives.  Does anyone remember this?  Does it really help?  What is the of
DME to water ratio?

Jason Gorman
RiVeR dOg BrEwErY


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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:03:23 -0600
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: re:  pellet clogging

In #2880 Ed Steinkamp asks for methods to prevent pellet smoo clogs.  I'm
assuming you're referring to clogs that might occur when one moves cooled
wort from boil pot to fermenter.  Ed, whirlpooling and patience are the keys
when brewing with pellets.  Even so, whenever I have to brew with pellets, I
always calculate 5 gallon batches as 6 because I know that I'm going to have
to choose between losing wort or siphoning a bunch of hops smoo into the
fermenter.  Calculating the batch at 6 gallons makes choosing the former a
bit easier.  Whenever possible, I brew with whole or plug hops.  I find that
with whole hops the whirlpooled hops and trub maintains its integrity better
and is therefore easier to siphon around, and worst case, whole hops plugs
the siphon hose outright before it gets into the fermenter.  

Happy brewing,

Mike 
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:42:02 -0500
From: artcemelli at juno.com
Subject: Re:  Question about yeast nutrient

Brian Pickerill writes
Subject: Question about yeast nutrient

>I have some yeast nutrient (I think it's di-amonium phosphate) that I
bought for stuck fermentations and have never used.  Now I am wanting to
make my first mead and the stuff looks and smells pretty nasty.  Not
surprisingly, it smells like amonia.  I know the smell wasn't that strong
when I bought this about 2 years ago, and it was a dry light brown
powder.
It hasn't turned to goo or anything, but it's moist kind of like brown
sugar in consistency.  This is stored in a relatively dry location (not a
basement) so I am not sure if there is some mosture pickup (it's in a
small
zip lock) or if the chemical is breaking down somehow.>

I would not take the chance in using old di-amonium phosphate. The best
yeast nutrient is "yeast hulls" you can get them by putting some yeast in
the boil. This will kill the yeast and only leave the Hulls ( poor little
yeast). 
Now were to get yeast?????

Try harvesting from a primary or secondary. I would go with the secondary
less stuff ( hopps, trub or cold break)

Arthur Cemelli
Tarkett Inc.
Plant Electrical Engineer

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:43:39 -0500
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: pronounce Saaz

I can't believe this one did not come up.
So what is it Saaaaaz  or Zatsa  ?
Rick Pauly
Charlottesville,Va


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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:02:15 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: crab seasoning

     From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>

     >>>>>>

     {Snip}

     Hmmm . . . Old Bay Beer.  Being a lifelong Marylander, and a devotee
     of
     steamed crabs coated in the stuff, I'd have to say I'd probably have
     to
     take a pass on a beer *made* with it.  Remember that it's about 95%
     salt.  We don't go adding salt to our beers in any appreciable
     quantity,
     and I'd be hard pressed to find a way to separate the "Old Bay flavor"
     from the salt.  (if anyone has a way, let's hear it . . .)

     {Snip}

     <<<<<<

     You might try Zatairain's liquid crab/shrimp boil.  Pretty close (if
     not better) in flavor and w/o the salt.  Or maybe a chile & clove
     beer... nawwww  I think I'll stick with grain and hops for now, thank
     you very much!

     Lou - Austin, TX - watching Ricky run for the Heisman and watching out
     for a new brew from Celis...  Hmmm always fun to start a new rumor!


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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:26:06 -0800
From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Alt Again

HBDers,

Sorry for beating a dead Alt, but...

 ... a few responded to my post about brewing a decocted Alt using 100% Dark
Weyermanns Munich (as per AlKs suggestions on past HBDs) and suggested a
grainbill using maybe 50% Light German Munich as well as some Pils and
maybe someVienna would be closer to style. The reasons stated were that
Dunkels are often brewed using all dark Munich and that an Alt brewed with
this malt (especially using decoction) would come out way too dark.

Any comments?

I am not an expert on these styles, but am just trying to slog though the
mounds of information (and as we have learned "missinformation" about this
style) and would like to formulate an Altbier as close to style as
possible...

Also, when asked about Dusseldorf water, Jeff Renner kindly refered me back
to '95 HBDs where this was discussed at length by our attendant water
expert AJ deLange. If anyone would like that info I would be happy to
forward it to you.

Cheers!


 -Troy 




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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:16:11 -0600
From: "John W. Thomasson" <jwtjr999 at flash.net>
Subject: Durst Malts/Alt Recipe Formulation

Howdy y'all...

Long time lurker, first time poster.  I've been experiencing this
uncontrollable urge to brew German beers for the past few weeks now,
although I'm going to have to abstain this weekend... she who's will
must not be resisted says to put up the Christmas lights.  Resistance is
futile...

Anyway, Troy Hager's post in HBD #2879 on Alt decoction and Jeff
Renner's reply in #2880 prompted me to post a couple of questions.  Over
the past 2 weekends I brewed a Vienna lager (pronounced lay-ger, of
course) and a Munich Dunkel, both using Durst Munich and Vienna malts as
large percentage of the grist.  After some consideration, I settled on a
double decoction mash with rests at 128F, 140F, 153F, and mash out at
168F (by infusion).  Of the malt varieties locally available, Durst
seems to be the most appropriate for these beer styles but I'm kind of
flying blind for lack of any malt specifications.  From my
seat-of-the-pants steely/mealy chewing test, my guess is that Durst
malts are *moderately* modified (read neither fully nor substantially
under), but I'm certainly no expert.  What I perceived to be small
steely tips could well have been pieces of husk, or for that matter,
residual Copenhagen from my previous chew.  My homebrew shop proprietor
doesn't have any specifications and I've been unable to find anything on
the net.  Anybody got 'em or know where to get 'em?

My next brew (holiday weekend, hehehe) will be an Alt bier using Durst
Pils, Munich and Vienna (40/30/30, a tad of flaked barley and Wyeast
#1007, whadda'ya think?).  Should I use the same mash schedule described
above?  It will be a good while yet before I know whether the earlier
beers benefited from the protein rest or otherwise, so I hesitate to
include it a third time not knowing for sure.  If the degree of
modification and protein levels in these malts are such that a protein
rest is not necessary, well skipping it certainly won't hurt my
feelings.  Also, I would welcome any comments on my proposed grain bill.

This is indeed an outstanding forum.  My thanks also to Pat and Karl, as
well as to those who routinely share their wealth of knowledge with the
rest of us.  Thanks again!


John Thomasson, Head Brewer and Used Cornie Keg Restorer
Seven Bucket Brewery in Aledo, Texas
(Home of the Bearcats, soon to be 3A State Champs!)

No clue as to exact proximity to JR, but anxious to try his pre-pro CAP
recipe.

"You see, I don't have to outrun that bear; I just have to outrun you."
 - author unknown




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