---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Phil's Non Phloating false botton ("Rick Wood")
  re: 240V service, I need a neutral (John_E_Schnupp)
  re: Phil's Phloating False Bottom (John_E_Schnupp)
  The Beginner ("NFGS")
  ABT's Comp-U-Brew RIMS ("Chuck Bernard")
  Milk alternative (how to affix my lables) (Nathan Kanous)
  CO2 & ZUD (Tom Clark)
  clipart search! (Rich Byrnes)
  Phil's Phalse Bottom (Dan Listermann)
  Burnt Beer (was Victory HopDevil bitter-sweet) (Charley Burns)
  modeling grain (Paul Niebergall)
  Re: Phloating Phalse Bottom (Robert Arguello)
  Sweet CAP (Jeff Renner)
  potassium sorbate in cider ("silent bob")
  ABG Courses ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  Phil's Phloater ("Spies, Jay")
  Excel spreadsheet ("silent bob")
  Removable bottle labels (Gail Elber)
  diacetyl and Wyeast 1056 ("Victor Farren")
  Re: Beginners Stuff (j miller)
  Re: Pronunciations continued (ulfin)
  reply to: Phil's Phloating False Bottom (Herbert Bresler)
  Oatmeal Stout / RIMS vs. HERMS (MaltHound)
  Old Style; lambic (" Scott Perfect")
  Stroh's continued ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Does Oxygenation with O2 increase lag time? ("William W. Macher")
  brewing calc.. (Badger Roullett)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Send your entries in for the 1998 St.Louis Brews Happy 
Holidays Homebrew Competition yet?  Details: 
http://www.stlbrews.org

NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source
  in any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items 
  originally appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is 
  exempt from the above.)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:39:36 +1100
From: "Rick Wood" <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: Phil's Non Phloating false botton

Hi Jeff and the HBD,
I have used a Phil's Phalse bottom in a 10gal Gott for several years and
have never had a problem with it floating.  I use a piece of very stiff
Polyethylene Tubing (or Polypropylene, can't remember for sure) from the
Phalse Bottom Fitting to my Gott Fitting.  The stiffness of the tubing keeps
the false bottom on the bottom.  I had also considered using Stainless or
Copper Tubing for this, but the PE seems to be working.  I was afraid that
at the increased temps of the mash it would soften to much, but it seems not
to.  I stir without worry through most of the mash with additions of hot
water to maintain and to equilibrate temps.

It is my opinion that "Phil" takes unfair criticism regarding the floating
of his device.  It seems that it was designed as a cheap/inexpensive part
for a zap pap type masher.  It's price in it's main advantage over a SS
false bottom and I always thought I would replace it with SS but I always
find something more important to expend the money on, rather than something
that is working very well.

Regards,
Rick Wood
"Brewing on Guam"



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 02:14:00 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: 240V service, I need a neutral

Dana's problem is:

>I have recently moved into a condo and both my wife and I are very glad to
>have all of my brewing stuff moved into a garage. Unfortunately, the
housing
>association feels that my brewing, using a propane burner, in my garage
>doorway (as far out as parking lot traffic will allow) is a safety hazard.
I
>disagree as I am very careful but I can see their point.

I disagree too.  How many of them have grills on their decks or in their
garages that they wheel out?  A grill is just as much a hazard as your
burner.  Maybe more, have you ever seen a really good grease fire?  Back
in college we had grease fires where the flames would be up and thru the
exhaust hood.  What about the smoker who burns down the house by tossing
hot
butts in the trash (it happens more frequently that you think)?

>The problem began when I actually examined the wiring the other day. Here
is
>what I found. The service into the electrical box consisted of an
insulated
>cable with three wires inside
>1) bare copper: presumably ground
>2) black wire: 119.9 V to ground
>3) "white wire": covered with black tape to appear black 118.9 V to
ground.
>Wires 2&3 are 210V w.r.t. each other.

This sounds all wrong to me, really wrong.  AFAIK, there should be 4
wires (at 30A I think the wire should be 10-3).  The colors should be
black, red, white, green (or bare) in 10-3 wire.  It really sounds like
you are missing a wire.  It would be that they are using the bare wire
as the neutral but that is plain stupid (and I don't think it would
be to code, at least I'd never wire anything that way).  If the bare
wire is being used as the neutral there should be an earth ground on
the furnace somewhere.

I'd have this checked out by a qualified electrician.

As for re-wiring, I'm surprised that they didn't put a 20A circuit in the
garage.  A lot of power tools can draw 15-20A, especially on start-up due
to inductive loading.

Assuming your electrical box is in the garage, it shouldn't be too
expensive to re-wire.  Get an estimate.  I'd install 2, 20A circuits, this
is assuming that you have an extra slot in you electrical box.
However, simply adding another 15A circuit to your garage should work
too (I only say 20A based on my use of power/woodworking tools).
Use one circuit for each heater coil.  If the two boxes are next to
each other everything should be great.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 02:15:32 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Phil's Phloating False Bottom

Jeff,

>Does anyone have solution to a Phil's Phalse Bottom that floats in a
>Rubbermaid Cooler ?  Back some ago I saw a post that said to screw down
the
>false bottom. I was thinking about doing that, however

I'd think about too.  You'll be puncturing holes in the plastic.  I'd say
a leak would be a problem, unless you sealed the holes, then you couldn't
remove the bottom to clean it.

I've never used one of these so I don't know how tight they fit.  If it is
a close fit but just not snug, maybe you could slit some tubing and wrap
it around the edge of the Phalse bottom.  I'd think that this bottom would
only be prone to floating before the grain was mixed in.  Another option
might be to weight it somehow.  Maybe a piece of copper tubing around the
edge or a couple of big SS nuts (4 is a good number) around the edge.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 07:46:40 -0800
From: "NFGS" <fjrusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: The Beginner

Jim Miller / British Columbia, Canada wrote:

'...there are many different ways to do things, ending in a
similar result, but i'm getting confused at this point.'

Jim, you did not mention if you had purchased a good book on home brewing or
not.  That is where you need to start.  This is exactly how I felt when I
first wanted to brew beer after making wine for 2 years.  I found a book by
Dave Miller - Complete Handbook of Home Brewing and keep it by my side all
the time.  There are others and maybe even better ones but I went for
fundamentals as it sounds like you are looking for.

I asked this same question months ago and here is one of the many answers I
received:

'Get "Homebrewing - Vol. 1" by Al Korzonas.  It starts at the
beginner level, but provides plenty for the intermediate to
advanced brewer.  The Papazian books are most recommended, but
many in the HBD feel they contain errors and bad advice.
Al's book is the only that I have seen that gives info on
specific brands of yeast and grains, and extensive coverage
of the different types of hops.'

If you are receiving HBD you will often see posting from Al.

The web is good for recipes and advanced techniques, BUT GET a good book!

Enjoy
Frank
fjrusso at coastalnet.com






Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:03:16 -0600
From: "Chuck Bernard" <bernardch at mindspring.com>
Subject: ABT's Comp-U-Brew RIMS

Has anyone out there either purchased or have any experience with the
Comp-U-Brew RIMS system offered by Advanced Brewing TEchnology, located in
Grayslake Illinois.  I'm considering one of these as my own personal
Christmas Present and am looking for some users or other references before I
plunk down the $$$.

Anyone interested can view a description of the Comp-U-Brew at the Advanced
Brewing Web site

http://www.advancedbrew.com/rims.html


Public posts or private replies are OK.  I will summarize any private
correspondence received for the group.

Chuck
Bernardch at mindspring.com

Music City Brewers, Nashville TN - Music CityUSA
http://www.theporch.com/~homebrew




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:06:34 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Milk alternative (how to affix my lables)

I have to vote one time myself for the trusty old glue stick.  Easy to use,
labels come off easily, no running / bleeding of the ink.   Now, if you get
the labels wet otherwise, all bets are off.  Using laser printed labels or
hitting the local print shop for color copies would alleviate that problem.
 Again, I can't think of anything much simpler than a glue stick.
nathan in Madison, WI




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:20:45 -0500
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: CO2 & ZUD

Just a couple of ideas...

If you want to get rid of rust stains use a product called "ZUD".
It comes in the form of a scouring powder and works really well on 
ceramics and stainless.

Also, I am trying out an idea...  While my beer is fermenting in the 
plastic primary, there is a hose connected from the top of the airlock 
over into an empty carboy.  When it is ready to rack, the carboy should 
be at least partially purged with CO2.

Tom Clark
Southeast of the Ohio River - a long way from Jeff Renner.


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:38:27 -0500
From: Rich Byrnes <rbyrnes2 at ford.com>
Subject: clipart search!

AArrgghhhhh, a fatal hard drive crash not only lost a bunch
of IMPORTANt stuff, but a ton of fun stuff as well.  I've
done well to recover most of my lost "stuff"  But I'm
missing a great clipart of Santa hoisting a cold one, in
full color.  I found a clipart called santa13 that is in
black and white (a closeup headshot) but I really really
want that full colored full bodied santa with a mug or
bottle.  I'm sure this would be of interest to many people
on the list, so If you have an URL please post it to the
list, but I would gladly accept the file via e-mail if some
kind sould would send it to me, thanks!!!  I have searched
the "brewery" archives as thats the only source I know of
for beer clipart, is there more sites?

Rich Byrnes
Founder & lame duck president
Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen
rbyrnes2 at ford.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:07:00 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Phil's Phalse Bottom

Jeff Gray writes:
<Does anyone have solution to a Phil's Phalse Bottom that floats in a
Rubbermaid Cooler ?  Back some ago I saw a post that said to screw down 
the
false bottom. I was thinking about doing that, however I am not sure that
 I
want to put holes in my cooler.  I would also think this might be a area
for
bacteria to grow.  Any ideas, or is the screws ok ?>

I am pretty sure that I have, at least, the longest experiance with 
Phil's
Phalse Bottoms.  If used correctly, there is no need to hold them down
except perhaps when using them as a mash / lauter tun during the strike. 
 I
usually seperate the mash from the lauter so this is not a problem.  The
weight of the mash holds the bottom down very well.  Since the Phalse
Bottom is very close to the cooler's bottom, foundation water is not
necessary and there is no floating.

When using the cooler as a mash / lauter tun one may want to hold the
bottom down with a long object such as a stirring spoon or a stick during

the strike at the beginning.  I strike using a pan of water followed by a

pan of grist stirring in between.  If the mash gets too thick, I add an
extra pan of water.  If too thin, an extra pan of grist.  I consider it
poor form to add all the water to the cooler before adding the grist.  It

is hard on the enzymes,  you lose some control of the consistancy of the
mash and the bottom is hard to control.

Another method which I have tried is to put all the grist into the lauter

tun first.  Add the strike water to the grist by way of the Phalse 
Bottom's
output. IOW underlet the strike water.  When the water reaches the top of

the grist, it will need to be stirred to even out the temperatures. 

Frankly I don't bother with this, but it works.

Dan Listermann     dan at listermann.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 08:00 PST
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Burnt Beer (was Victory HopDevil bitter-sweet)

>From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
<big snip>                                
>I've brewed this with OGs from 1044 to 1055.  The lower OG >produces a 
mellower beer that is more drinkable.  FG is usually >around 1015.
<snip>
>Best results to-date came from an infusion at 148F, followed in >20 minutes 
by a decoction (30 minute boil), returned for a final >rest at 152F.
<snip>
>Again if anyone can suggest a method to introduce a burnt flavor >note to 
this beer I would appreciate it.
<snip>

>From Dangerous Dave's (Sapsis) book of Rauchdunkel, add a second decoction, 
but don't stir it, just boil it for about 20 minutes and then toss it back 
into the mash for mashout. I think Jeff Renner coined the phrase "right 
after the sugars carmelize, they carbonize". The trick will be, how long to 
carbonize to give it just the right "burnt" character.

Charley (thinking about tub brewing again) in N. Cal                         
      



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:04:57 -0600
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: modeling grain

Guy Gregory confirms with his use of MODFLOW that Darcy*s law is applicable
 to evaluating fluid flow through a grain bed.  However, I have one minor 
comment concerning the values chosen for porosity (total and effective).  
In my experience, a value of 30 percent is *the* typical default value 
chosen for porosity when no test data is available.  Although, I do not 
have the data to back it up, the total and effective porosities of crushed 
grain is probably much higher than 40 percent and 30 percent, respectively.
  When comparing grain size to naturally occurring geologic materials, 
something along the lines of a peat rather than a sandstone would probably 
be more appropriate.  

Anyway, the porosity value used in the model is a moot point since MODFLOW 
does not use porosity (total or effective) as an input parameter and the 
final head distribution will be the same regardless of the porosity values 
chosen.  Similarly, different porosity values will affect the magnitude of 
the velocity vectors, but not the flow distribution.  I suspect that the 
model was created with some type of pre- and post-processing software 
(Vistas or Visual MODFLOW?) that requires porosity values for velocity and 
transport calculations.

Good work Guy.  Any plans on running MT3D to simulate the extraction of 
sugar at different points within the grain bed?

Paul Niebergall
Kansas City

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:09:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: Re: Phloating Phalse Bottom

Jeff Grey wrote, asking for a solution to the problem of floating with his
Phil's Phalse bottom:

>Does anyone have solution to a Phil's Phalse Bottom that floats in a
>Rubbermaid Cooler? 
>Jeff Grey


I will attempt to describe how I overcame floating with Phill's phalse
bottom....

I installed a bulkhead fitting in my gott/rubbermaid cooler, 

(http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/bulkdesc.htm).

The phalse bottom was attached to the bulkhead by a length of BRAIDED vinyl
hose. Imagine that when looking down into the cooler that the bulkhead is at
6:00 o'clock. Orient the fitting on the phalse bottom so that it is pointing
to 9 or 10 o'clock. While the bulkhead itself is located at the 6 o'clock
position, the hose attaches to a 45 degree hose fitting at the bulkhead. The
45 degree fitting is oriented so that the angle in a HORIZONTAL plane. In
other words, the angle doesn't point UP or DOWN, but rather to the LEFT.
When you attach a piece of braided hose from the phalse bottom to the
bulkhead, the hose lays on top of the phalse bottom, (bottom left quandrant
of the circle), and holds the plastic phalse bottom in position...no floating.

I am not good enough with ascii to draw a diagram in this letter, but I will
send a good diagram, (jpg or gif or bmp), to anyone who requests it. Before
I switched over to my RIMS, I used gott cooler and phils phalse bottom for a
mash/lauter tun for at least 100 batches and never had a problem with floating.

Robert A.
********************************************************************     	
Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Corny kegs - Mahogany 6-pack carriers - ProMash Brewing Software
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac
********************************************************************



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:07:16 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Sweet CAP

William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> writes

>I've brewed up two versions of CAP.  One way too hoppy and
>the second about right on the hops but sweeter than I remember.  My thoughts
>are to lose some of the maize and replace it with some rice or sugar, to
>make the flavor less intense.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Mine have turned out sweeter than I remember old time beers, too.  I like
them, but I like a crisper beer as well.  I know it can be done with corn -
AABG member and former HBDer Hal Buttermore made a wonderfully crisp one.
I think it was a single temperature infusion mash, probably 151-153F.  My
last time (step mash - I can't help myself) I paused between 140 and 158 at
~153 for 15-20 minutes and I think it helped make it a little crisper.  It
certainly was the best ever, but I always say this with this great style.
I think corn has a sweetness about it that is more its flavor than actual
residual sugars.

I hope you can keep yourself from using sugar.  I was so impressed with
Dixie on my visit to the brewery last month (review to follow shortly) that
I have decided to make my next CAP with rice.  (That's heresy coming from
me!)  I love the corn contribution, but I figure I ought to know how rice
does.  It should let the malt come through more cleanly and should help me
separate out the corn contribution from DMS, too, which comes from malt.  I
don't perceive DMS as creamed corn.  Either I can't taste/smell it or I
find it beery.  I think the latter, as that's what I found Rolling Rock to
be, and it is considered to be a DMS benchmark.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:26:18 PST
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: potassium sorbate in cider

In the last digest, Red reposted his question about his cider that won't 
ferment.  Potassium sorbate works one of the two following ways, I got 
both explanations from equally reliable sources.  

Exp 1:It kills everything.  Dead.  Gone.  The ramifications of this are 
obvious.

Exp 2:It prevents yeast from being able to bud, but has little effect on 
bacteria, particularly lactobacillus.  This seems plasible in your case 
since you had some evidence of fermentation, but it was feeble.

Both sources indicated that you can get a marigold/geranium character 
when using sorbate.  Source 1 said it is the sorbate itself, source 2 
said that it comes from the metabolism of the sorbate itself by 
lactobacillus.

Either way, I would guess that you are hosed.  The amount of time that 
has passed would make me nervous about infection (botulism?), and in 
either case, getting this stuff to ferment will be nearly impossible. 

good luck, and try to find some unpreserved juice (local orchard??) 

Adam 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:33:50 -0500
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: ABG Courses

Short time lurker, first time poster....

I was somewhat surprised to see the negative comments concerning the ABG
courses. I attended the ABG Advanced Home Brewers course this past May in
Baltimore. I had a very positive experience and I thought that it was money
well spent. I had been an extract and partial mash brewer prior to taking
the course and was able to learn enough to feel confident in switching to
all grain and have never looked back. In fact, I am considering taking the
class again since this class was geared to all grain brewing and therefore
some topics were over my head at the time. I apologize that I cannot
remember the names of the two course conducters (actually it was Mike and
Darrin but last names escape me) but they were both experienced and active
craft brewers. There were comments made about Budweiser but only in
reference to the brewing techniques and consistency of the brew (even though
it's rot gut). I would recommend the course although it may be a tad above
an extract brewers knowledge. No affiliation, happy customer, yada, yada....





Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:40:28 -0500
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Phil's Phloater

All -

Jeff Grey asked about solutions for a Phils Phloater, and suggested
screwing it down . . .

Don't do it.  You need to be able to remove the phloater for cleaning,
and screws would additionally leak all into the foam lining.  I'm taking
the liberty of reprinting an article I wrote in HBD #2744 that has
really worked for me.  I was ready to pitch the damn thing until I
stumbled onto this idea, and now the false bottom works flawlessly
without floating or leaking husks.  Hope it helps for you as well . . .

>>>BTW, with a good number of folks talking about using 10-gallon Gotts 
and Phils Phloaters, I thought I would share a gadget hint that has 
been of tremendous value.  I have continually had problems with the 
false bottom floating up at dough-in, leaking grains under the edge 
of the bottom and clogging up the works, even when I tried to manually 
hold the bottom down with a potato masher while simultaneously stirring 
and doughing in (there's a mental picture . . .)  Compounding this 
problem is the fact that the Gott that I use has a small bump right in 
the middle of the bottom where the exit elbow sits, making it hard to 
get a flush fit.  After many exasperating sparges where I had to blow 
into the outlet tube every 5 seconds or so to clear the damn thing, I 
finally found the perfect solution.  Take exactly 35" of 3/4" ID vinyl 
tubing (this fits around the bottom diameter of the Phalse bottom and 
the cooler wall, leaving just enough room to fit in a stopper / bulkhead
and outlet tubing.  Get 2 #3 solid stoppers.  Soak the tubing in hot 
water so it becomes pliable, and jam one of the stoppers completely 
inside the tubing.  Fill the tubing with BB's.  Stopper the other end in
exactly the same manner.  Place this "snake" around the outside of the 
Phalse bottom before adding your strike water, and dough in as usual. 
The weight of the snake holds the Phil's bottom down, and the width 
of the tubing ensures that there is a tight seal between the cooler wall
and the edge of the Phalse bottom.  The snake weighs about 7 pounds.  
The B-wine was the 1st batch that I used this for, and *not one* husk 
leaked through.  I also got crystal clear runoff after about 2 pints of 
recirc.  No water leaked into the tubing, so the BB's were dry, and 
didn't contaminate the mash.  Try it, it works like a champ.  Sorry 
for the b-width, just had to share this (for me) freak of discovery.<<<

I've subsequently brewed about 15 batches with the BB snake, and have
had consistent and reliable runoffs, and never a stuck sparge, even with
a 100% wheat hefeweizen (rice hulls added, though).

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:41:57 PST
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: Excel spreadsheet

To the masses who have copies of my Excel spreadsheet:

I haven't gotten some of the much anticipated feedback that I was 
counting on!!  How is it working, if it sucks, let me know, I can take 
it.  I hope everyone is enjoying it, and refining it for their needs. 

Anyway, I didn't keep a list of all of the recipients, so I decided to 
post an update here.  In the water calculations portion, the formulas to 
calculate the makeup of the treated water is erroneous.  The same cell 
is referenced for every ion, instead of the cell that corresponds to the 
particular ion being calculated.  I don't remember the exact references, 
but it is the first cell referenced it the formula.  You are all smart 
you will figure it out.


Enjoy, and happy brewing!
and give me some feedback!!

Adam

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:41:21 -0800
From: Gail Elber <gail at brewtech.com>
Subject: Removable bottle labels

>I would love to hear some suggestions for a more viscous, water-soluble
alternative to milk.  Being more viscous would avoid the problem
altogether.

Sweetened condensed milk, diluted, is viscous and very sticky.

Gail Elber
Associate Editor
BrewingTechniques
P.O. Box 3222
Eugene, OR 97403
541/687-2993
fax 541/687-8534




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:37:48 -0500
From: "Victor Farren" <vfarren at smtp.cdie.org>
Subject: diacetyl and Wyeast 1056

I have a question for the collective.

I recently brewed a 10 gallon all grain batch of a fairly generic Pale 
Ale 
(OG 1.050, FG 1.010)  which I split into two buckets for primary
 fermentation, and then to glass carboys for the secondary.  Primary 
was for 1 week, and the 2ndary and dry hop was for 10 days.  I 
bottled last night and noticed a distinct diacetyl presence.  It
 was not very strong, but very noticeable.  How can I get lower levels 
of diacetyl in my beer (I use 1056 b/c I want that 'clean' taste)?

Here is what I did:
fermented with 2 liters 1056 starter (split b/w 2 buckets).  This was 
stepped 
up 3 times, then had to put in fridge for 1 week b/c something came up 
and 
couldn't brew right away.  The day before I was ready to pitch I 
drained 
off fermented starter and added 1 pint of wort  at  1.040, and pitched 
just 
after high krausen.

I do not have access to pure oxygen so I aerated wort by splashing 
around 
vigorously.  Beer fermented at steady 68F.  Signs of fermentation witthin 
12 
hours.  Got a steady fermentation, but the beer did not produce the thick 
level 
of krausen I have gotten in the past.  It fermented down to 1.010 after a 
week
 (no problems here), and then racked to  2dary.

Here is what I think:

1) Not enough O2 in wort led to increased diacytel production by yeast
2) Yeast may contain mutant strains that produce more diacetyl and don't 
absorb
 it well ( thinking that stepping up, and then keeping in fridge may have 
produced 
old, tired yeast--grasping for straws here--how likely do you think this 
is?)
3) Need to get dedicated fridge and ferment at lower temp.

Anyone have any other suggestions

This was an all grain wort so I definitely have enough FAN.  Grain bill 
was 20 lbs Maris
 Otter 2 row
1 lb light crystal
1 lb dextrin malt
1 lb torrified wheat

Thanks 

Victor Farren




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:01:47 -0800
From: j miller <cblues at canada.com>
Subject: Re: Beginners Stuff

Hi all!

Many thanks for all the replies to my post! was quite amazed and
gratified that you folks took the time out your schedules to bang me out
an e-mail.......and  they're still coming in at 10am pst...

good brewing!

- --
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
        Jim Miller
    British Columbia
          Canada
               *
      Radio Station
          VE7JM

  ..._  .  _ _...  ._ _ _   _ _




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:00:04 -0500
From: ulfin at mail.portup.com
Subject: Re: Pronunciations continued

"Brad McMahon" <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
>
>In HBD #2885 Guy Gregory asked:
>>Now, is Saaz pronounced "Saws" (like handsaws) or "Saaz" (like Utah
>>Jazz), or otherwise?
>
>Otherwise! I've not it heard pronounced either way.
>In German the double a is pronounced like a long a in English,
>as in car, far, and guitar. The s is pronounced as a z
>so the the word sounds like: zarz.

The "ar" pronounciation of broad a is a peculiarity of
Australian English. Most others pronounce it as "ah".
(Dialectical differences used to drive me nuts.  The
dictionary I used as a kid said that the circumflex o
was the vowel sound in "pot".  Not so in American English;
we have it in "dog" [at least where I grew up] but not
in "pot".)

In German, "a" is pronounced "ah", and double a is similar, but
a bit broader.  English lost lengthened vowels soon after the
Norman Conquest.

The Germans would pronounce "Saaz" as "zahtz", but I doubt that
the word is German.  I don't know Bohemian pronounciation rules.
(That is not to say that that actually *is* how Germans
pronounce it, just that that's how *would* pronounce it if
they used German pronunciation rules on it.)

I used to assume that all brewing terminology was
German, so for years I pronounced it "zahtz", but now
I pronounce it "sahz" (not "sawz", "sazz", or "zarz"),
for no particular reason other than that people are
more likely to understand what I'm saying.

BTW, the Germans call Australia "OWZ-trahl-ee-en" (or sometimes
"owz-TRAHL-ee-en").

So, is "FAWS-tahs" *really* "aws-TRAYL-yin for bee-uh"?

On the subject of pronouncing "kraeusen", there is not
an extra "ah" sound stuck in before the "oy". "AE" is
a single vowel (equivalent to "a" with an umlaut [direses
{dang, I'm sure I spelled that wrong}]).  When an umlaut
is not available, an umlauted vowel is indicated by putting
an "e" after it (there are some exceptions, it seems that
"Goethe" is always writtens without the umlaut regardless of
availability).

Here's a brief High German pronunciation guide for speakers of
English:

Consonants--as in English, except:
 c  seldom used alone in German except in imported words, so
    pronunciation can vary
 g  always hard, like in "Gieger counter" (not like "giraffe"),
    except ending words in "-ig" (pr. like German "-ich")
 j  like "y" as in "Yumping Yack Flash"
 q  rare
 r  sometimes rolled or uvulated, just pronoucing it as in
    English is close enough
 s  usually like "z",
    but sometimes like "sh" (especially in cluster at beginning
    of words), and sometimes like "ss" at the end of a word
 v  always like "f"
 w  always like "v" (even in cluster)
 z  always like "tz" (compare "sins" and "since" and you get the
    difference), even at the beginning of a word
 "ess-tzet" (looks like a Greek capital beta) equivalently written
    as "ss"--pronouced like hard "s" in English (like the second
    "ss" in "possess", not the first). I don't think it ever appears
    at the beginning of a word

Consonant Clusters (there are probably more, but these are the
   ones that came to mind)
 ch  don't even try it; just substitute "sh"
 sch like "sh"
 schw like "shv" ("schwarz" is "shvahrtz")
 st- like "sht-" ("stoff" is pronounced "shtohf")
 th  often like "d", usually like "thank", not "that"

Vowels
 a  "ah" as in "father" (not "aw" as in "paw"), sometimes like
    "uh" (schwa) in unaccented syllables
 e  "ay" as in "Bay Watch", sometimes pronouced very short like
    it is in English "yet"
 i  "ee" as in "feed me beer", sometimes pronounced very short
    like it is in English "bin"
 o  always "oh" as in "photo"
 u  "oo" as in "food" (not "ew" or "yoo"), sometimes pronounced
    very short like it is in English "rum"

Umlauted Vowels
 ae  sometimes as in "cat", sometimes like "peg", but not quite
     either (also written as "a" with an umlaut)
 oe  sometimes "ih" as in "hiccup", sometimes as "o" in
     "world" (but no "r" sound)--this is a tough one for English
     speakers; just use "oh" or "ih" (also written as "o" with an
     umlaut)
 ue  kinda like "ew" in "Eeew! This beer's infected"  (also written
     as "u" with an umlaut).

Dipthongs and vowel clusters
 aa  "ah", but a little broader
 ai  "I" like "bye"
 ao  "ow" as in "mouse" (this one might not exist; I can't think
     of any examples)
 au  "ow" as in "mouse"
 ee  "ay" (perhaps a little longer?)
 ei  "I" like "bye"
 eu  "oy" as in "boy"
 ie  "ee" like "feed me beer" (this is not an umlauted vowel)
 oo  as "oh", but slightly longer

(Note on "ei" and "ie" that they are pronounced like the
second letter's name in Enlish: "Aye" and "Ee". Some Yiddish
pronunciations reverse this just to confuse you [perhaps it's
an Americanization; I don't know]. But unless you're a
He-brewer, you'll likely not need to pronounce many Yiddish
brewing terms.)

Spelling and pronunciation is far more consistent in German than
in English (fewer exceptions to rules). Accent almost always
falls on the first syllable (imported words commonly use their
native accent, or are accented on the second, last, or secon-to-
last syllable).

BTW, it's "RYN-hytz-geh-boht", not "ryn-HYTZ-geh-baht"

>Brad.
>A long way from Jeff Renner, unless he is holidaying in Adelaide,
>Australia.

Dan Butler-Ehle
A long way from Jeff Renner, unless he is vacationing in da U.P.

KRAEUSENERS Homebrew Club:
Keweenaw Real Ale Enthusiasts United for Serious
Experimentation in Naturally Effervescent Refreshment Science




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:42:56 -0500
From: Herbert Bresler <bresler.7 at osu.edu>
Subject: reply to: Phil's Phloating False Bottom

In HBD#2888, Jeff Grey asked about how to sink a Phil's Phloating False Bottom:

To Jeff and everyone:

I have seen this issue raised several times in recent months, some have
even suggested that this is a fatal design flaw in the Phil's False Bottom.
IMO, there is no need for complicated solutions to this "problem."  The
first time I used it, I noticed that the false bottom floated up a little.
So the next time I used it, and every time since then, I made sure to first
add a thick layer of mashed grain onto the false bottom before I add the
rest of the mash.  This effectively weighs down the false bottom.  I have
not had any floating ever since.

I routinely use the Phil's False Bottom.  It works great, clear wort, no
stuck sparges, inexpensive, easy to use and clean, etc.  No affiliation -
just a happy customer.

Good luck and good brewing,
Herb
Bexley, Ohio




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:16:13 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: Oatmeal Stout / RIMS vs. HERMS

In HBD 2888 Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com> suggests a recipe for making
an Oatmeal Stout to "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>.  Ted wrote:

<<...5 lbs. Pale Malt
3.5 lbs. Munich Malt
1 lb.  Roast Barley
At sparge:  2 Oz. Chocolate & 2 Oz. Black Patent...>>

Why not just mash the Chocolate and Patent malt too?   I always do.  Also, I
think a full lb of Roast Barley for an Oatmeal stout would be too much.  I
would suggest more chocolate and less roast barley for a mellower roasted
flavor.  

and

<<Mash separately 1 lb. oatmeal 1 lb. flaked barley.  I use a protein rest
at 125 degrees before raising to 150 and place this in top of the
regular mash so it doesn't set as a glue near the bottom of the mash.>>

You can't mash oatmeal and flaked barley separately since they have no
enzymatic power at all.  What this would result in is oatmeal which is very
difficult to lauter.  If for some reason one insisted on mashing them apart
from the main mash you would need to do so with a portion of the barley malt
to provide the required enzymes.

I have made quite a few Oatmeal Stouts (it's one of my fav styles) and I
always mash the flaked grains with the rest of the malts (all together).  I
typically will perform a temperature step mash (132-154-165) but a single
infusion mash would work as well. 


Here's a good recipe I've used a few times, scaled to 5 gallons:

7.5 lbs. British Pale Ale malt 
3/4 lb. Flaked Oats
3/4 lb. Flaked Barley
1/2 lb. Roast Barley
6 oz. Choc Malt
4 oz. Patent Malt

30 IBU of Northern Brewer hops (full boil)
OG should be ~1.050-54

Mash it all together (either step or single infusion as above).  I use Wyeast
Irish Ale yeast but any of the UK yeast strains should be OK.  

**************************

On another topic,  several posts in the last year or so have advocated the
superiority of some sort of HERMS<tm> type set-up over the electrically heated
RIMS (no <tm>).  I have read repeatedly that some think that the electric
element may overheat the wort and prematurely denature enzymes.  I do not see
how using a heat exchange coil immersed in the HLT would eliminate this
possibility.  In fact, I would say that it could actually increase the
likelyhood of this occuring.  

In my electric RIMS, the wort exiting the heater chamber is only a few degrees
higher than the wort at the entrance.  While I don't have a HERMS<tm> type
set-up to play with, I would imagine based on my experiences using an
immersion chiller that the wort exiting the heat exchanger would be very close
to the temperature of the water in which it is immersed.  Since one of the
supposed advantages of HERMS is faster temperature step ramping, one might
imagine that the HLT is held at a fairly high temperature to accomplish this.
Unless the temperature of the HLT is regulated and monitored closely, it would
appear that more thermal stress would be placed on the enzymes via the heat
exchanger than with an electric heater chamber. 

The one other standard knock against an electric element is the potential for
scorching of the wort.  I have yet to have had this occur, but I do have a low
heat density element and keep the wort flow fairly high at all times when the
heater is on.  It is a possibility, but not an insurmountable one IMO.

Regards,
Fred Wills
Successfully RIMSing Oatmeal Stouts... and other beers
in Londonderry, NH


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:39:04 -0800
From: " Scott Perfect" <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: Old Style; lambic

Re: the debate on Stroh vs. Old Style.  Heileman began a commercial campaign
in the Chicago area back in the early 80's that talked about how all other
brewers short-step the brewing process and that _they_ were the only brewer
that brews the old fashioned way.  They referred to Old Style as
"fully krauesened," a phrase that has always hit me like fingernails on a
chalkboard - and it's engraved in my memory.
I cannot say that Stroh did _not_ refer to krauesening, but Heileman sure did.

In HBD 2888 Paul asks about a film forming at the top of his recently bottled
p-lambic.  My solution was simply to shake the bottles a bit to sink the
film.  That was the end of it.

A tangent:
A few months back I visited Beverages and More and found all the lambics
at discounted prices.  Naturally, I snapped up the gems of the lot
but feared what this signaled.  Sure enough, the Belgian selection has
shrunk to a small fraction of what it had been.  In fact, the entire beer
section is occupying perhaps half the floor space that it held at one time.
Is the Belgian fad reaching an end?  Will I have to live without Cantillon???

Scott Perfect
Livermore, CA.


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:05:52 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Stroh's continued

Jeff Renner wrote:
>>> >(And wasn't it Stroh's that made a big deal about
>>> >being fire-brewed?  As if gas flame versus electric
>>> >heat makes a difference...
>>
>>...Being a larger
>>brewery, I'd imagine the kettles and/or processes were designed to prevent
>>unwanted caramelization, so the point still becomes a big "so what?" in
>>terms of their advertising gimick...
>
>Evidently, a young Stroh some years ago (pre WWI, maybe last century)
>visited the old country as sons of German-American brewers did and found
>that old traditional breweries were using direct fired kettles.  He thought
>it made an important difference - the slight caramelization, apparently.

Now I see there's a beer that claims to be "frost brewed". How do you think
they hit their strike temperature using frost? 
Isn't it funny how much trouble those big breweries go to in order to 
convince us that colder is better. I'm suprised they don't stock their
beer in the freezer section...

>Where can I get a site glass?

Hey, that would be cool. An HBD pint galss that says "...take me
to your lager"
Sign me up.


Bryan Gros    gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA, way way west of Jeff Renner...

Organizer, 1999 National Bay Area Brew Off
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/babo99.htm



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:41:47
From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Does Oxygenation with O2 increase lag time?



Hi all,

Perhaps the following might be of interest to 
those that have not yet used oxygen for wort 
aeration...and harvest some helpful pointers
from our experienced brothers...

I am new to using O2 for oxygenation.  Prior to 
the last three batches (two beer and  one mead),  
my standard procedure was to first beat the 
cooled wort with a French whip,  while it was 
still in the kettle,  and then to drop it (with 
some vigor) from the end of the siphon tube 
into a carboy, before (or sometimes after) 
pitching the yeast.

My setup for oxygenation is a 20 lb oxygen 
tank,  a welding regulator,  and an aquarium air 
stone.  I have such an abundance of O2 with 
this system,  that I have been letting the O2 gas 
flow for six or more minutes ( removing some 
foam as it comes out of the carboy...).  I am not 
sure of the flow rate,  but expect that it is more 
than satisfactory. 

These last brews were pitched with liter 
starters. What has surprised me is that lag times 
appear to have increased,  over what I 
experienced with my former methods.  I used to 
get something like 4 to 8 hour starts.  With the 
O2 oxygenated batches,  it looks like it is now 
12 hours or more.

I might be a little off in the exact timing, so
to say it another way:  It seems to take about 50% 
longer to get to a point where I am sure lag 
time has ended :-)

I do not recall seeing mention of oxygenation 
with pure O2 (as pure as welding O2 may be) 
leading to lengthened lag times.  Is this 
normal?  Have others using O2 had the same 
experience?

My speculation is that with much more oxygen 
in the wort,  the yeast are going through more 
growth phases,  and consequently the elapsed 
time between pitching and production of CO2 
has increased.

Am I close? 

Once activity starts it seems to proceed 
normally,  as would be expected.

Another question.  Does it make any practical 
difference if yeast is pitched before aeration,  
versus after?  My guess is that it does not...

Long live the HBD!

Bill Macher      Pittsburgh,  PA	USA




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:41:18 -0800
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: brewing calc..

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:37:02 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: [Fwd: An idea for computerized recipe exchange]

> You did mention a recipe CALCULATOR.  What is this.  What sort of
> calculations are being performed with respect to the recipe.  Could you
> give me an example of a few of these programs.  What data is being
> provided.  Is the data a part of the standard recipe information of
> item, quantity and units or is there other information to be included.

My personal favorite is ProMash.  its cheaper than most of the ones out
there, and its more functional as far as i can tell.  I am a satisfied cust,
no affiliation.etc.

http://www.promash.com

badger

***************************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger
Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven

 "It had to be a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability to
use language that makes him the dominant species on the planet. That  may
be. But I think there's one other thing that separates us from animals. We
aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners."       --Jeff Stilson



Return to table of contents

---