---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Brew room setup (Al Korzonas)
  Rodenbach/vial storage (Scott Murman)
  Nottingham dry/stainless kettles/brewers resource (Breadnale)
  Protein Rest is Dead (amgrady)
  no sparge mash thickness and Rodenbach (Jason Henning)
  Re: Loss of Brewpubs ("Tim Green")
  Off-tastes from Goldings ("Chris Pittock")
  It aint braggin' if you can do it (Jason Henning)
  RE:  Diffusion Confusion (Dave Humes)
  Dixie Brewery Review pt. 1 (John Simonetta)
  Brass in the boiler ("Ratkiewich, Peter")
  Purging kegs with CO2 (Louis Bonham)
  Grain Mill ("Sandy Macmillan")
  Re: Books Under the Xmas Tree (Jeff Renner)
  Protein rests (Eric.Fouch)
  Fwd: Re: Alt (Nathan Kanous)
  Protein Rest (Nathan Kanous)
  diffusion of gases within kegs ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Diffusion Confusion (Jeff Renner)
  vacuum pumps and purging and bottling thoughts ("Czerpak, Pete")
  fusel formation and hops/trub question ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Gas vs Propane ("Gregory f. Hunter")
  Kegging 101 ("Poirier, Bob")
  Re: protein rests (Jim DiPalma)
  Re: More Pronunciation - Zum Uerige (Spencer W Thomas)
  1338 uses ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  AHA bashing (Spencer W Thomas)
  Purging Cornies (Stephen Johnson)
  PhilMill (Alan Edwards)
  Water Ratios, etc. (Shane & Laura)
  co2 and mixing with air (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  RE: Gott for Partial Mash ("Tim Burkhart")
  How hard can we make this hobbey? (Clifton Moore)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:34:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Brew room setup

SRJ writes:
>I'm ready to set up a brew room which will be in the basement. It is a new
>house and I had water lines, drainage pipes and a natural gas hookup
>installed. My next step is up in the air! I am looking for any and all
>suggestions. How do I handle the vapors? What's the best layout?

I'll second that question, but will take it one step further in the hopes
that there are a few HVAC experts on the HBD.  I'm perhaps a year or two
away from building a house from scratch and plan to build a brewery right
into the plans.  The ventilation over the kettle & mashtun is the one
part on which I would like some design help.

On one of those "This Old House"-type of shows, I saw a heat exchanger for
fresh air supply.  I believe this is needed on some of the new super-
insulated houses which are virtually airtight.  From what I recall, it works
by warming/cooling the outdoor air slightly on it's way into the house
(depending on the season).

Recall that with an indoor 100k BTU burner, you not only need to vent
moisture and carbon monoxide, but you also need to bring in fresh air
(oxygen for you and the burner).  I was considering putting in one of
these heat exchangers to slightly warm the air in winter.  The vented
heat off the boiler could be used for the heat supply, but in the summer,
it's rather impractical to get a way to cool the supply air.  I don't
think it would be that hard to set up a bypass flue for summer.

So, is this idea silly?  Is it worth the trouble?  Should I just put in
a supply flue from outside and let the exhaust fan suck the fresh air
into the room?  Is that a bad idea... should I put a fan on the supply
air too?  What the heck is the building inspector going to say?  I
don't think that I won't put the ventilation system or the fact that the
entire brewery room will be tiled on the house plans...

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/



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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:45:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Rodenbach/vial storage

Thanks to everyone who responded to my vial storage problem.  Many
inventive solutions.

For those attempting to make a Rodenbach-style beverage, Oerbier
produced by De Dolle Brouwers (The Mad Brewers - Belgian) uses the
same yeast/lactic primary strain as Rodenbach.  Their beers (about 4
or 5 types - Arabier, Oerbier, Stille Nacht) are all unfiltered,
unpasteurized, and available in the US.  If you live near S.F.,
Caruso's in Noe Valley carries them.  I've cultured it, it is viable,
and it does produce a nice combination of esters and sourness.  I hope
to use it for a Rodenbach Grand Cru next cherry harvest.

"I'd like Yeast Trivia for 500 Alex."

 -SM-



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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:34:30 EST
From: Breadnale at aol.com
Subject: Nottingham dry/stainless kettles/brewers resource

Hey,
I'm thinking of using Nottingham. I've never used dry yeast before. Starter?
Rehydrate? How large of a packet? Two packets? Thanks

I'm looking for a good deal on a new ss kettle. Preferably around 10 gallon,
spigot. Reasonably priced. Any ideas? I saw one at Brewers Resource that looks
like a really good deal. It can come with a spigot and a "sure screen", to
supposedly filter out trub and whole hops. Anyone use one of these? I'd like
to put some sort of false bottom/screen in the pot to filter out whole hops.
At $20.00 for the spigot and the screen that's either a very good deal or a
cheesy, flimsy piece of %$# at . Ido however buy most of my brewing stuff from
them and think that they are one of, if not the best homebrew shop in the
country, which I suppose would make the world?>.

Thanks, Jim
e-mail ok. breadnale at aol.com


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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 20:43:37 -0500
From: amgrady at together.net
Subject: Protein Rest is Dead

In HBD 2896, Kyle Drury mentions this year's discussion of the lack of
usefulness (or worse) of protein rests with today's modern/modified
malts.  I would like to take this opportunity to summarize may last brew
season's work along these lines...

I brewed 5 batches last fall/winter/spring with the specific intent of
determining if protein rests could reduce chill haze and/or improve foam
stand in my brews.  I chose 5 standard recipies that I had brewed more
than once, all using 1-temp. infusion mash (an APA, an IPA, a 'special'
bitter, a Pilsner, and a Maibock).  For each of these, I used the same
malt/hop/yeast/procedure/etc. as I had in the past, but I added a 127F
rest for 15 min before the saccrification rest (which varied from
152-158 for the 5 brews).  My qualitative conclusion is that these beers
were <more> prone to chill haze, and had very poor foam stand.  The
chill haze is more subjective (I have no 'Formazin Turbidiy Unit'
measurements to quote!), but the lack of head retention is
obvious/unquestionable.

I could see doing more work along these lines (122F?  131F?  10 min?  30
min?), but I don't see much point...especially with the technical
writing on this area in the HBD the last 9+ months.

SO - infusion it is...but what about decoction...???

Matt Grady
Burlington, VT


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:27:54 GMT
From: huskers at voyager.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: no sparge mash thickness and Rodenbach

Hello-

I posted that I had some trouble with low efficiency with a no sparge
beer. Someone asked what my mash thickness was. It was about 1.4 quarts
per pound.
- ---
A little bit of info from Beer Companion (p123) with respect to
Rodenbach:
The classic (I don't know if it has a formal name) is a blend of aged
beer and young beer. Aged beer being 1.052 and as young as 18 months to
as old as 2 years. The young beer is 1.046 and 5-6 weeks old. 

Grand Cru is aged beer only. Jackson says it's 5.2 abv but my bottle
says 6.0. Jackson has a picture almost perfectly matches the Grand Cru
label. You can read 219 on the first vat on drawing on the bottle.
Jackson's picture has the same prospective looking down the rows of
wooden vats. You can read 164 on the one in the foreground. The numbers
and a row of fluoresce lights is about the only difference. 
 
Alexander is sweetened with cherry essence. Sounds like a marketing
gimmick to meet demands of drinkers that spiked their beer with
grenadine. Seriously.

I hope anyone with information leading to the brewing and drink of this
fine beverage weighs in. I know I'll be reading and archiving every
little tidbit.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Clawson, Michigan

Brew to live
Live to Brew

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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:41:03 -0500
From: "Tim Green" <timgreen at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Loss of Brewpubs

One question on the below comments, have you tried the "Michelob (aka Bud)"
microbrew style beers?

I had one of them at a party and was surprised enough to go and try the
rest. They are close to or right on target to style and are quite tasty. I
was shocked that the folks at AB actually remembered how to brew good beer.

You may see them as a threat, but I see brews at $8.00 a six-pack that is
only marginally better in quality as a threat to my wallet.

Tim

> "C and K" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com> writes:
>
>Here in Washington State, as I suspect elsewhere, the big boys are getting
>into the game.  You can go into most any store, and there is Michelob (aka
>Bud) Heffeweissen for $3.80 a sixpack.  Other styles available, too.  I
>would imagine they are taking a loss, trying to strangle our microbrew
>industry.




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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:47:48 +1000
From: "Chris Pittock"<Chris.Pittock at nre.vic.gov.au>
Subject: Off-tastes from Goldings


Hi All,

A quick query re: Goldings hops: Has anyone had phenolic/lactic tastes in
their beers from a single late-hopping addition of Goldings?

Background: 2 batches - one grain (Irish Red Ale) and one kit with dextrose
(Australian Pale Ale), late hops (15 or 30 g: 0.5 to 1.0 oz for our
Imperially inclined bretheren) steeped at end of boil, same ale yeast, cool
ferment (20-24 deg C: ??? deg. F). Hops probably imported, but in vacuum
sealed foil pack - very green, pellet form, fresh smelling.

Theory: Have I extracted such a narrow fraction of the hop taste/aroma that
it's "out of context"? Am I better off with smaller additions at -10 min,
 -5 min and 0 min, with some dry hops as well?

AHA: errm... Australian Hotel Association?!

Chris - halfway between Carlton and United Brewery and Coopers Brewery




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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:35:30 GMT
From: huskers at voyager.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: It aint braggin' if you can do it

Yogi said "It aint braggin' if you can do it". On a similar note, it
aint bashing if it's true.

The reason most people post negative comment about the AHA is because
they want a better AHA. There are a lot of problems with the AHA. To sit
silent is almost as bad as tell others to keep their opinions to
themselves.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Clawson, Michigan

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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 08:04:43 -0500
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE:  Diffusion Confusion


>So, my question is this:  If you're supposed to purge a Corny keg  of
>air before you rack your precious brew into it, how can you be  sure
>that you've gotten rid of all the air?? 

The best way to assure you've gotten all the air out is to first fill the
keg with water and then push it all out with CO2.  Just before kegging, my
kegs are generally partially filled with an Iodophor sanitizing solution. 
I just dump that, rinse a few times with hot water using a bottle washer,
and then I fill them with hot water and seal them up.  To help insure
sanitary conditions, I've heard some say that they fill their kegs with
boiling water.  I don't go that far.

- --Dave

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>                  Dave Humes
- -----------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:14:03 -0500
From: John_Simonetta at ittsheraton.com (John Simonetta)
Subject: Dixie Brewery Review pt. 1

     Jeff Renner posts (Dixie Brewery review by Roger B.):
     
     The lagering cellars, in the middle of the brewery, are constantly 
     damp and dripping, like a cave, with the pervasive aroma of ammonia. A 
     fitting place for a beer called Blackened Voodoo to be made!
     
     My response (one opinion):
     
     This brewery, with its "pervasive aroma of ammonia" does seem like a 
     fitting place to me for the production of the above brew - possibly 
     the worst beer I've ever had.
     
     John Simonetta
     Randolph, MA


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:37:51 -0500
From: "Ratkiewich, Peter" <PRATKIEWICH at ci.westport.ct.us>
Subject: Brass in the boiler

This may seem like a neophyte type question, but being a neophyte, I'm
allowed...here goes anyway.  Is there a problem with using brass
fittings or screens in my boiler?  How about copper?  I'm told that
there is an issue with the pH, the boiling temperature, and the metal??
The reason I ask is twofold.  One, I've already made one batch with a
porcelain pot boiler, with a brass fitting on the drain.  This was a
very inexpensive setup. I've not noticed any bad taste, but then there
is the neophyte factor.  Reason two - I have a fairly good supply of
brass screen, and could fashion a hop screen similar to an easymasher
for the boiler outflow, without spending a dime.  On the above mentioned
batch I simply swirled and held a brass screen over the outflow during
my runoff, but it was not in place for the boil.  So....a) am I asking
for trouble with this proposed setup, and b.) is my last batch poisoned?

Neophyte on the marsh
Pete Ratkiewich


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:45:18 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: Purging kegs with CO2

  Bob asks:

> So, my question is this:  If you're supposed to purge a Corny keg
> of air before you rack your precious brew into it, how can you be
> sure that you've gotten rid of all the air??  I mean, if the CO2 is
> going to start mixing with the air (diffusion) as soon as you start
> pumping it into the keg, then you'll NEVER be able to completely
> purge the keg of air!!  There will ALWAYS be some air left inside, right??

There *is* a way to get all the air out, leaving nothing but CO2.  Fill the keg
up all the way with no-rinse sanitizer (Star-san or idophor -- make sure you use
the proper concentration for "no-rinse" use).  You probably do this anyway.
Now, instead of just dumping out the sanitizer, seal the keg and use your CO2
bottle to push it out the "beer out" side.  [I just hook up a transfer hose and
push the sanitizer to another keg, fermenter, or whatever also needs
sanitizing.]  When the hose starts blowing gas, disconnect both the beer and gas
hoses.  Now turn the keg upside down for a few minutes so that any remaining
ml's of sanitizer pool around the "gas-in" fitting.  Give the gas-in popit valve
a push, and the remaining gas pressure in the keg will blow any remaining liquid
out.  And voila, you now have a sanitized keg that's got nothing but CO2 in it
- -- ready to receive beer either immediately or in the future!

Louis K. Bonham



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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:42:31 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at ncc.moc.kw>
Subject: Grain Mill

Thanks to all the kind people who responded to my "Mill" enquiry. The
comments were all frank and I feel the need to publish them for all.
I had comments on the following Schmidling Malt (JSP)Mill, Phil Mill, Valley
Mill, and Corona.

1. Corona simple but generally felt for small operational use only. Cannot
be safely motorised.
2. Schmidling Malt Mill one against 4 positive for it.
3. Phil Mill cost effective

4. Valley Mill, generally good comments. Adjustable seems to be important
and .  "The roller gap settings are not calibrated, i.e. they are not
labelled, nor will the manufacturer give you the specifications of the
settings.  I interpret this to mean that there is variability between mills
for a given setting, but I find that the settings on my mill are the same
from one usage to the next, which is all that's important.  If you're
curious about the settings on your mill, you can take measurements with a
feeler gauge". Several people stated they mill twice at setting 1 and then
setting 4.

Everyone commented on the fact they had or will motorise the mill, this was
universal, so check out that power feature.

Performance not generally said to be a problem and these figures were given
1. Valley Mill with electric drill 10 lb. in 2 minutes for one pass and 10
lb. in 5 minutes hand cranked.
2. Phil Mill 10 lb. in 10 minutes hand cranked
The group response was in general that an adjustable mill was worthy of the
extra expense.
Costs start about US$ 80 and top out at about US$ 130

Sample group was small, but conclusions seem as usual you only get what you
buy.

Thanks again

Sandy
Head down to lurk




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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:50:37 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Books Under the Xmas Tree

I have been really pleased with _Beer: Tap into the Art and Science of
Brewing_ by Charles Bamforth, Insight Books, New York and London:1998, ISBN
0-306-45797-0, http://www.plenum.com, $27.95 list.  This book, written by
an British professor of brewing at Heriot-Watt University, covers history,
brewing science, tasting, and lots else in an informative, entertaining
style.  I consider it a great addition to my library, and a must have for
anyone interested in knowing more than just how to make beer and nothing
more.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: 10 Dec 1998 09:10:57 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Protein rests


HBD-

Scott says to Kyle (and the rest of us):

Hmmm do you have to do a protein rest??? probably not... Will it make your
brew better??? This BrewRat seems to think so.

Anybody else feel the same?

If I may throw my own totally anecdotal data point into this one.....

I get much better head retention on my Wit's (using 40% raw wheat) when I skip
the protein rest and mash straight in at around 150F.

Now if I could just eliminate the buttrot flavor.......

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
(Small and useless...The Brewery, not ME!)


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:23:14 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Alt

>From Al K....hope you don't mind Al!
nathan in Madison, WI

>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:39:32 -0600 (CST)
>From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
>To: nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu
>Subject: Re: Alt
>
>
>
>Sort of like  "tsoom  OOregee" but the "r" is gutteral like all northern
>German R's.
>
>Al.
> 


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:33:15 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Protein Rest

Kyle writes:

I believe we last left off that a protein rest was *not* required with
todays well modified malts, and in fact, a protein rest could increase the
potential for chill haze.
So, is the protein rest now dead for the homebrewer in the next millenium?
Inquiring minds want to know...

Skotrat Says:

I still do a Protein rest on almost all my brews. I get better extraction
and clearer brews. My brews are not thin like "The Al" said that brews made
with protein rests would be and I even got him to admit it when I reminded
hime that most of the beers of mine that I have had the pleasure of him
judging ("The Al" is quite a fine judge by the way) were done with protein
rests.

I say:
I think we need to keep in mind that there are proteases (break large
proteins into smaller peptides) and peptidases (which break down smaller
peptides into smaller peptides and amino acids).  Each of these enzymes has
a "different" optimal temperature (although you're not going to get
activity of one, without activity of another.  You hear about two different
"protein rest" temperature optimums (122 deg F and 135 deg F).

I don't remember which is which (protease versus peptidase) and would
prefer to avoid offending anyone by posting "misleading" information.  My
take on the protein rests is this:
Avoid the 122 deg F with modern highly modified malts...it leaves your beer
with reduced head retention and probably a little insipid (now that's real
specific, eh?).
The 135 deg F protein rest has merit...I believe...in improving head
retention and mouthfeel...and possibly improving extratction (increased
solubilization of starches?).

Now, since my last posting saying how wonderful a protein rest at 135 deg
is, I've been doing single infusion mashes and have been very content with
the results.

I think one of the problems with the protein rest debate is that people
refer to all protein rests as the same.  I think there is a difference
between the two temps I've mentioned above.  Feel free to prove me
wrong...I actually enjoy learning and if you don't make mistakes you learn
much slower.

So, Skotrat, what temp protein rest do you use (opening up my learning curve)?

Nathan in Madison, WI


Nathan L. Kanous II, Pharm.D., BCPS
Clinical Assistant Professor
School of Pharmacy
University of Wisconsin - Madison
Office Phone (608) 263-1779
Pager (608) 265-7000 #2246 (digital)


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:50:27 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: diffusion of gases within kegs

On the subject of diffusion and mass transfer within kegs of CO2 and
air:

The basic idea of purging a keg with CO2 before filling with beer is a
good one.  The better question is how long do you purge for to get rid
of enough oxygen to prevent oxidation.

The diffusional process goes like this: with a open keg, it initially is
filled entirely with air (unlimited supply of O2).  Now you close it and
the amount of air and O2 contained becomes finite.  Now you add CO2
under pressure until the pressure in the keg equilibrates with the
cylinder pressure.  Mixing of the air and CO2 occurs until equilibrium
occurs which is driven by something called chemical activity.  Now open
the keg and the higher pressure pushes the CO2/air mixture out of the
keg until you stop it or the pressure is atmospheric again.  If you let
it go to atmospheric pressure, air will start diffusing into the keg
while the valve is open and there is no pressure difference.  If the
valve is closed while the pressure is still slightly higher than
atmospheric, then air will have a difficult time diffusing against the
pressure difference.  Now we fill the keg again with the valve closed
(the total amount of air in the keg has decreased since some flowed out
while in equilibrium with the CO2).  Again we purge after equilibrium is
reached and the amount of air left in the keg is again decreased.  This
can be repeated until there is no air left in the keg, but technically
this will never happen.  It will only keep decreasing to a smaller and
smaller amount never actually reaching 0.

The main concept is that purging with an infinite amount of CO2 will
cause a finite amount of air in the keg to eventually approach 0.  How
long this actually takes is difficult to say.  But the longer you purge,
and the longer you let the keg with CO2 sit closed to approach
equilibrium each time, the closer you will be to zero air upon
introduction of your beer to the keg.  

Now the whole problem with already having some amt of air dissolved in
your beer prior to putting it into the virgin keg is an entirely
different story not so easily remedied.  Hopefully putting pressure on
the beer and then purging to cause air and CO2 to come rapidly out of
solution (through bubbles and slight foaming) helps to get rid of most
of the remaining O2 dissolved in the beer.

Hope this provides some enlightenment for the diffusionally impaired.
:)

Pete

Pete Czerpak
Process Engineer - Chemical Division
Schenectady International, Inc.
pete.czerpak at siigroup.com



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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:01:20 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Diffusion Confusion

"Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com> says I cleared up one question (glad
to help) but raised another:

>If you're supposed to purge a Corny keg
>of air before you rack your precious brew into it, how can you be
>sure that you've gotten rid of all the air??  I mean, if the CO2 is
>going to start mixing with the air (diffusion) as soon as you start
>pumping it into the keg, then you'll NEVER be able to completely
>purge the keg of air!!  There will ALWAYS be some air left inside,
>right??

Theoretically, yes, but you can get rid of most of it, especially if you
purge it through the liquid out fitting so it enters the keg at the bottom.
Actually, the mixing here isn't caused by diffusion, which acts on a much
longer time scale, but rather simply by mechanical mixing caused by
turbulance of the entering gas.  Tthe more slowly you introduce the CO2,
the less turbulance you'd have, and the better chance of pushing out the
lighter air with the heavier CO2 (again, diffusion has no time to play a
role).

>Now, what if you could evacuate all the air first (with a vacuum
>pump), then dump the CO2 into the keg...

When I'm being really paranoid, I fill the keg with water and push it out
with CO2.  Now I have a keg filled with CO2 and no air.  Then I fill it
(into the "out" fitting so there's no splashing and foaming) from another
keg by pushing the beer with CO2 .  Of course, you have to get the beer in
the first keg. ;-)  To do this, use a keg as a secondary.  You seal it just
before it's done fermenting and vent it a few times to get rid of air from
the headspace.  DON'T do this before fermentation is nearly over.  You
think bottle granades are a problem!

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:11:16 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: vacuum pumps and purging and bottling thoughts

Bob P. asks about using a vaccum pump to purge oxygen first and then
dump the CO2 into the keg.

Well, in my vacuum pump experienced life (I am a former engineering grad
student who used vacuum pumps to rid vessels of air so that fires
wouldn't happen in high temperature environments which is much worse
than beer oxidation), I think that vacuum pumping would be sufficient to
remove all air.  To add CO2 before then adding the beer would only
enable the repressurization of the keg.

By the way, as soon as you opened the keg air would start diffusing in
anyways, so vacuum pumping wouldn't have accomplished much for the
trouble.  Plus the method that is used to seal kegs is only good when
positively pressurized and probably not the reverse when under vacuum.
An experiment could be in order though.

Here's my general thoughts on kegging, bottling, bottling from kegs,
etc:

I do admit that kegged beer (atleast when kegged my way) never tastes
oxidized out of the keg as can happen when I bottle normally and
naturally condition.  I personally think its more due to the original
amount of oxygen in the bottles and head space that anything else.  The
best way to go is probably to counterpressure bottle after purging the
bottles thoroughly with CO2 and then topping them off with slightly more
beer as the tube is pulled from the bottles.

The lower the amount of time the bottles are exposed to oxygen for
diffusion (do you bottle and cap separately or bottle all and then cap,
it makes a difference as longer times allow for more diffusion.  Also,
minimizing head space minimizes the amount of O2 trapped in the
headspace when the bottle is closed and thus minimizes the amount of O2
available for oxidation and staling of your beers.

Only my engineering opinion though.  Minimizing any contact time with O2
will help those who bottle and naturally condition.

Pete
Pete Czerpak
Process Engineer - Chemical Division
Schenectady International, Inc.

pete.czerpak at siigroup.com



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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:18:12 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: fusel formation and hops/trub question

Sorry for all the posts today.  Just wanted to avoid work I guess and
think beer for a few minutes.

I just got results back from a competition where my imperial stout (OG =
1.084, FG = 1.025, 2 wk primary, 2 month secondary, 1 yr bottled) did
pretty well.  The main problem was solvent liked flavors due to fusel
alcohol formation.  Could the age, high OG, or large amt of hops used,
have anything to do with these fusels.  I don't rack the wort of the
trub and spent hops before primary, I just pored it all in to the
carboy.  Also, I didn't use a starter or external source of O2 although
the yeasts (Wyeast Irish) seemed to do pretty ok with high attenuation.

What things can be done to minimize fusel alcohol formation.  Any ideas
or hints are welcome.

Pete


Pete Czerpak
Process Engineer - Chemical Division
Schenectady International, Inc.
pete.czerpak at siigroup.com



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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:47:51 -0500
From: "Gregory f. Hunter" <ghunter at anchorcapital.com>
Subject: Gas vs Propane

As a relatively new subscriber and a novice (2 years 15 batches) brewer I 
really enjoy reading the Digest.  While most of the discussions are over 
my head I am learning steadily by reading.  This knowledge will hopefully 
prompt me to start grain brewing.  I am not intimidated to ask dumb 
questions since I have seen some posted already and noone was flamed for 
writing.
The Digest has already provided a great service to me.  I am replacing an 
old boiler in my house and I am going to make sure that I save the sight 
glass and valves for future use.
In response to todays digest and the question about a propane burner, 
natural gas and propane are at two different pressures.  The jets and 
regulators are need to be replaced if you are trying to convert a gas 
dryer,hot water heater, etc. to propane.  While it is possible to do this, 
as I know from converting a stove from gas to propane, you would be better 
served trying to find an old propane hot water heater and bypassing those 
problems.


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:50:50 -0600
From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com>
Subject: Kegging 101

Greetings!!

First of all, I'd like to say thanks to everyone that's already 
responded personally to my Diffusion Confusion post - so far, 
that would be Dave Humes, Louis Bonham, Owen King & Jeff 
Renner.  I'm sure I'll get more responses as the day drags on.

When I wrote that post yesterday, I was stressing pretty badly 
on work related stuff.  So, my mind was all cluttered with this 
totally stoopid work stuff, which caused all the really important 
brew related synaptic operations to go slightly awry.  Basically, 
I already knew the answer to my question, but my brain simply 
forgot to remind me!!

So, I apologize for wasting bandwidth yesterday - and I guess 
I'm doing it here again today, but I wanted to thank everyone 
that has and will respond!!

Oh yah, all you've got to do to eliminate the air from a Corny 
keg is to first fill it with water or a sanitizing solution, then push 
that out with CO2.  Bingo!!  Now you've got a keg full of nothin' 
but CO2!!  (Duh!!  EEDIOT!!)

Brew On & Prosit!!

Bob P.
East Haven, CT
bob_poirier at adc.com ( at work)
bpoirierjr at worldnet.att.net ( at home)


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:54:41 -0500
From: Jim DiPalma <dipalma at omtool.com>
Subject: Re: protein rests

Hi All,

In HBD#2897, Jim Layton writes:

>I still use a short protein rest with German pils malts (no more than
15
>minutes at around 125F) because I've been very pleased with the
>resulting beers. For pale ale malt and domestic two-row, a single temp
>infusion seems to work fine. A single temp infusion would probably work
>fine with the German pils malt as well, but I like decoction mashed
>lagers and I hate to fix what isn't broke.

Just a couple of data points. Recently, I brewed a German pils with a
grain bill
that consisted of 1/2# Ireks Munich malt, and the rest was Ireks pilsner
malt.
I did a single infusion mash at ~153F, lagered the beer for 4 weeks. Six
weeks from
brewpot to glass, and the clarity was excellent, no chill haze or any
haze problems at
all. The head retention was fine, too.

Shortly after that, I brewed a CAP with 2# of flaked maize, 2# 6-row
malt, 14# Ireks pils
malt. I'm aware that this style is traditionally brewed with 6-row
instead of 2-row, but I
don't care for the flavor produced by large amounts of 6-row. Anyway, I
did a seperate
mash with the "high protein" goods, the flaked maize and the 6-row.
Mashed in at ~130F,
held for 30 minutes, raised to ~155F, then combined that mash with the
Ireks which had
been single-infusion mashed at 153F. Again, the Ireks had not been
subjected to a protein
rest. This beer took a little longer to clear, as I seemed to get a lot
more break material,
but after a 4 week lager and 2 weeks of cold conditioning in a corny,
the beer was brilliantly
clear, again no haze problems at all. The head retention was incredible.
On one occasion, I 
poured a pint, then got distracted for about 20 minutes. (Yes dear, I'd
be happy to help you
dig your bulb bed). When I returned 20 minutes later, the head was still
standing tall, you'd 
never know the beer had been sitting out for that long.

Years ago, Ireks produced a fairly undermodified malt, it virtually
demanded a decoction mash.
They seem to have gone the way of other modern maltsters, and are now
producing malt that
works well with single-infusion mash schedules. Some folks may enjoy the
results of using a
protein rests with these types of malts, and that's fine, but in my
experience it certainly is not
necessary.

************************************************************************
***************************

My .02 on the malt mill question: I've been using a JSP maltmill for
almost 7 years, put well
over a ton of malt through it including a substantial amount of wheat,
and never had a 
problem. The mill produces a great crush, and just keeps working.

Cheers,
Jim



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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:00:59 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: More Pronunciation - Zum Uerige 

zum = tsoom 
uerige = u-umlaut German-trilled-r g schwa

The u-umlaut sound is one that does not appear in English.  You can
make a close approximation by placing your tongue in the position you
use for the "long E" sound, but pursing your lips as you do for the
"long OO" sound. 

As I recall, the German "R" is trilled briefly at the front of the
tongue.

=Spencer


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:05:04 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: 1338 uses

Jim English asked about other styles that 1338 works well in. I had
respectable results using it in a English Brown Ale. 


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:15:02 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: AHA bashing

Some are saying:

	"Charlie and the AHA did a lot to get this hobby started."

This is true.  But others are saying

	"What has the AHA done for us LATELY?"

This is also true.  And then there is 

	"Brian & Paul are great guys."

This is true, too.  And we all hope that Brian and Paul will turn the
AHA back into an organization that truly provides SERVICES to its
MEMBERS.  History does not bode well for this hope, as we've seen too
many others with good intentions for the AHA get squashed in the
process.

=Spencer


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:15:29 -0600
From: Stephen Johnson <Stephen.Johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Purging Cornies

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:47:45 -0600 
From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com>
Subject: Diffusion Confusion

Greetings!!

In HBD #2897, Bob Poirier asks about evacuating cornies of air and replacing
that space with CO2, suggesting the possibility of using a vacuum pump
to empty it first.

I think I read about an alternative procedure here on HBD within
the past 2 years or so (about the time I first got into kegging):
After cleaning and sanitizing your cornie prior to filling, fill it
first with pre-boiled and somewhat cooled water.  The reason to use 
somewhat cooled water is that boiling hot water can loosen the 
adhesives that attach the rubber foot and/or top on some styles of
cornie kegs.  Then, push all of that water out with your CO2 before 
filling with your precious beer.  Then, as you gently fill with beer, 
the rising level of beer pushes out remaining CO2 and leaves a blanket 
of CO2 covering the beer before closing off the cornie and either 
force-carbonating or natural keg conditioning.  I haven't done it 
myself because I still only have a 5# CO2 tank and don't feel like 
using too much CO2 for each batch. But for those with plenty of CO2 
to gas away, it sounds like a great way to do it.

Steve Johnson
Brewing, Kegging, and Bottling in Music City, USA
(Nashville, TN, for those who are country music impaired)
eagerly waiting to meet Michael Jackson on Saturday at Boscos Nashville
Brewery...



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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:21:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: PhilMill

Tidmarsh Major writes:
| There are few minor drwbacks 
| to it, all of which I can live with.

| First, I don't like the clamp-to-the-table mounting method. 

| I got around this by building a plywood lid for a 
| bucket that has a raised platform for the mill to clamp to.

I have not tried any of the other mills; but wouldn't you then have to
worry about holding the bucket still while you cranked?  I like the clamp
mount because it is solid.

| Second, the hopper is a little bit small (a 2-liter soda 
| bottle)

You just fill the hopper a bit more often...no biggie (to me).
It's good to take a break from cranking.

| didn't, and the Phill Mill works for me.  It probably 
| wouldn't be as adequate if I brewed batches larger than 5 
| gallons and crushed more than 12 lbs of malt at a time, but 
| for my small-scale use the Phill Mill is good enough.

I crushed about 30 pounds of grain for a barleywine in one sitting.
Call me a masochist.  But I paced myself, and didn't get any sore
limbs!  It was pretty boring though...you might want to do this in
front of the evil mind-sucking-device (TV).  ;-)

 -Alan in Fremont, CA


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:15:54 -0800
From: Shane & Laura <scook at infoserve.net>
Subject: Water Ratios, etc.

Hello All,
With all this talk of to protein rest or not to protein rest I have
started to think about trying one. I am a relatively new all grain
brewer, 2 batches, and have been doing single infusion mashes. I use a
converted picnic cooler a a mash tun. I have been shooting for a water
to grain ratio of about 1.25qt per lb. If I do protein rest(s) using hot
water infusions for the temperature increases then what water ratios do
a aim for at each rest? Is the sach. rest the most important?

Now a couple of asides, one with all of the talk of old commercials
lately I found it interesting the John Labbat Classic is now advertising
about the beer being kraeusened. Guess it is not just for old time
classics. Also a question for Pat and Karl, I was curious how many
subscribers the HBD has and how many countries it spans, any ideas? PS
great job guys, keep it up.

Shane Cook
500 metres from the Pacific Ocean
___________________________
E-mail: scook at infoserve.net
ICQ #: 15754362




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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:10:46 -0500
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: co2 and mixing with air

collective homebrew conscience:

bob wrote, regarding the co2 "blanket" myth:

>So, my question is this: If you're supposed to purge a Corny keg of air
before you rack your >precious brew into it, how can you be sure that you've
gotten rid of all the air??

one way is to fill the keg with water and then push the water out with co2.
there will probably be some water left in the bottom.

the thing to wonder about is this, regarding purging:  how much co2 is
necessary to *dilute* a given volume of air down to an acceptable level?  i
normally charge the keg after the beer is in, three times at about 5-10 psi.
i know there is still air in the headspace of the keg, but i believe it's
not enough to do major damage over the next few months.  experience has
shown that it's usually not. 

i surmise you would need some ridiculous level of control over the flow of
co2 and its entry point into a volume of air to instantaneously achieve some
statistical fascimile of what we refer to as a "co2 blanket".  it's
difficult to get gases to "unmix".

brew hard,

mark bayer
great mills, md


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:22:30 -0500
From: "Tim Burkhart" <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: RE: Gott for Partial Mash

Since I would like to see more folks post answers/opinions/etc. to the list
instead of privately... I guess I'd better do the same.

Patrick writes that he is considering doing some partial mashes before he
goes all grain. If you want to try all grain before you shell out $$ for the
Gott you might consider trying a mini mash.

Until Santa brings me my 10gal Gott cooler and 7gal brewpot, I am currently
doing 2.5 gal. all grain mini mashes with stuff I already had in the house.
My equipment is a 12 qt. enamel stock pot, a large rectangular picnic
cooler, and a very large stainless steel mesh strainer which allows me to
lauter up to 5.5# of grain.

I use the 12qt. pot and picnic cooler as a mash tun. Grain and strike water
goes in the pot and then the pot goes into the cooler (which has been
preheated with hot water). I then stuff towels around the pot and shut the
cooler lid. This maintains my temps (whether rests or sacc.) very well.

When the mash is complete I gently move the grain and liquor to the strainer
which sits in another large pot. After the initial wort is drained, I
recirculate and sparge through the strainer into the 12qt pot to 3.25gal.
The wort splashes noisily into the pot but I have not had any staling (HSA)
that I can tell. The strainer effectively seals the opening of the pot ...
not sure if this prevents some HSA??? Then I boil down to 2.75 gal, chill,
pitch starter and done.

The whole point of my post is that you can try all grain without the
investment in equipment. Even though I only get a case of bottles per batch,
I will not go back to extract. And by the way, if you really screw up the
batch, 2.5 gals is much less painful to dump than 5 gals :^)

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City


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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:18:15 -0900
From: Clifton Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: How hard can we make this hobbey?

I have found that one advantage of having years of experience 
with brewing ten gallons at a whack is that I have come to 
understand more clearly just what is important and what isn't 
worth spending great effort on.  An example of this is the 
usefulness of obsessing over a little O2 getting into the beer.  
While intellectual models relating to total exclusion methods 
are interesting, I have found that they just are not worth 
bothering with.  This is not to say that procedures that add 
little effort are not worth doing in the spirit of optimization.  
An examples of this would be to place bottle caps atop the 
bottles after filling and let them line up for a bit prior to sealing.  
Any CO2 evolved from the beer will displace some air in the 
head space.  (An aside on the head space question is that I 
suspect small head space being associated with low carbonation 
is the result of cap leakage of CO2 as the pressure of bottle 
fermentation spikes.  Head space provides a cushion for all 
this gas so that it is available for absorption into the finished
beer.)  
Another example is that I have had good luck doing open 
transfers into my cornies.  I let the beer displace the air in the 
open keg and then purge the head space with CO2 after filling.  
I don't know how important this is, but it is easy and feels good.  
After filling I close the corney and pressurize and vent about 
three times prior to putting on enough pressure to start forced
carbonation.
I can make many of the same kind of observations relating to 
the perceived crisis of hot side airiatiation (HSA).  While it is 
good to keep in mind, I contend there is little advantage to be 
gained by going nuts with efforts toward atmospheric exclusion.  
This is a case where physics works in you favor in that gasses 
have a low solubility in the warm or hot fluid. 
This post is not intended to stifle band width on these subjects, 
but rather to quiet the sound of spinning wheels.
Clif


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---